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Dear Utpal,

 

I slightly disagree with your below mail. Without offence, let me state a few counter point for the sake of a discussion from a non-vegetarian's point of view. You said:

 

¡§I don¡¦t wish to stuff my stomach with the body parts of killedcreature. Would never think of troubling any leaving creature whenmother-nature has provided enough alternate food.

 

Even plants are living. The air we breath is living (organisms). Death is part and parcel of natural law. One cannot avoid it however much one tries. The Abrahamic religions are heavy on non-veg food. The areas where they grew, arid, desert land, you need to have (at least during those days) animal flesh to survive specially considreing irrigation options were so scanty. If you live in the Artic region, you need to have fish oil to survive the cold. The point is, death is a part of life. One does not survive without death. That is how the world has been designed by the grand designer.

 

What right I have, to snatch away even a single life inthe universe for my selfish reasons. I consider that as very verycruel and that is the personal thinking why I am a vegetarian and notstrictly due to any religious or cultural reason¡¨

 

What harm have plants done? Why not the same kind of feeling when it comes to plant life? They too are living beings, just like anything else!

 

What you consider selfish maybe a law of nature.

 

Please understand I am not advocating non-vegetarianism. But if someone is to do serious sadhana, no doubt vegetarian food is best. Otherwise, I am not sure if it makes in any difference at all.

 

-Regards

Rajarshi

 

 

The upsurge (of consciousness) is Bhairava - Shiva Sutra--- On Fri, 11/12/09, vedic_pathak <vedic_pathak wrote:

vedic_pathak <vedic_pathak Re: Veg Vs. Non-Veg Date: Friday, 11 December, 2009, 7:36 PM

 

Namasrte SriRam,

Long back, i had posted the below message on this list.I've put my argument in the message in which i firmly belive.Its possible this may change the mind of your friend.

http://groups. / group/vedic- wisdom/message/ 411

The exact Argument is given again as under which is the extract from the above message:[i couldn¡¦t hold back myself and honestly explained myconclusive view point on the whole subject as follow¡§I don¡¦t wish to stuff my stomach with the body parts of killedcreature. Would never think of troubling any leaving creature whenmother-nature has provided enough alternate food. Just for the sakeof filling my stomach or satisfying cravings of my tongue, I won¡¦t beresponsible for killing innocent birds, animals, fishes directly orindirectly. What right I have, to snatch away even a single life inthe universe for my selfish reasons. I consider that as very verycruel and that is the personal thinking why I am a vegetarian and notstrictly due to any religious or cultural reason¡¨]

Even if Shri Krishna has not mentioned a direct wording of Non-vegetarian food in Geeta, it is not right to take that excuse for slottering creatures.

I ask any body to think for him/her self in the light of what is right and what is not...

Best Regards,

Utpal

 

 

 

 

, Astro Seeker <astro.seeker@ ...> wrote:>> Namaste,> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I am a firm believer of Veg being satwik food and consider non-veg as hurdle to spiritual growth. But, a friend of mine who otherwise is trying to make some spiritual progress, is a non-vegetatian. In our arguments over non-veg food, he has put a counter argument. He says that if I can find him a single shloka on this in Bhagwat Geeta, he would give up. > So, if anybody on this group can help me find the quote, it would be great. He considers Geeta as the absolute reference and believes if Lord Krishna has not spoken about it in Geeta, it is actually not worth discussing whether or not you take non-veg. If anyone finds it, le me know so that 1 guy on this earth can become

vegetarian.> He also quotes Sai Baba, Jesus and Mohammed Prophet adhering to non-veg. If any of you know the counter argument, please help.> Best Regards,Sriram> > > The INTERNET now has a personality. YOURS! See your Homepage. http://in.. com/>

The INTERNET now has a personality. YOURS! See your Homepage.

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Posted

Dear Rajarshi,

 

As you have said, Most of these are sure shot arguments from the people who eat

Meat/fish. But I have often feel that they are themselves are not convinced when

they argue. they are 'hollow' arguments. However , I'll honestly say that i have

no answers for 'life in a Plant'.

 

The people who argue such as': Most eat meat in the world, Egg is vegetarian,

Plant also has life, One will not get required nourishments only with vegetarian

food, If we don't eat fish then sea will be full of fishes:), Earth will be full

of chickens:0, Veg food will become unaffordable if everybody will become

vegetarian :Etc...are more often than not, put up such arguments to defend

however as i said earlier they are themselves not convinced.

 

Vegeterian people have their own arguments but all these are mere arguments. I

personally can not look at butchery shops where one finds hanging goats. its

pathetic site. People in their excitements stand in queue to see the cutting of

throat of a chicken and then take away that as parcel. The flash of so cruelly

butchered Chicken or a Goat or a cow or pig, is so tasty for the humans that

they just overlook the voice of their inner self. a fish which comes out of

water is such a disturbing site. Panting for water (i don't have proper English

word to describe the condition of a fish out of water). and then the dead fish

thus is so tasty.

 

The bottom line is that " They cannot overcome " the cravings for the meat, fish

and eggs. This is a naked reality.

 

Dear Rajarshi, However i try, i am not convinced with arguments in favour of

Nonveg food. Only at the cold places and deserts where survival was the main

consideration, i can slightly agree but that too during ancient days. not

now...Now everywhere Veg food is easily available.

 

***

Few months back, a young girl from Germany came to work in my office for 6

months. once i casually asked her as to what she eats during lunch. what she

said was not at all expected. she said that she is pure vegetarian and eats only

Veg food since 3 years now and wants to continue that way whole life. As

expected, i was very happy and i further asked the reason. The answer she gave

so much happiness. She said that She does not want to kill to eat. Vow! I salute

her from my heart.

 

Best Regards,

 

Utpal

 

 

 

 

, rajarshi nandy <rajarshi14 wrote:

>

> Dear Utpal,

>  

> I slightly disagree with your below mail. Without offence, let me state a few

counter point for the sake of a discussion from a non-vegetarian's point of

view. You said:

>  

> ¡§I don¡¦t wish to stuff my stomach with the body parts of killed

> creature. Would never think of troubling any leaving creature when

> mother-nature has provided enough alternate food.

>  

> Even plants are living. The air we breath is living (organisms). Death is part

and parcel of natural law. One cannot avoid it however much one tries. The

Abrahamic religions are heavy on non-veg food. The areas where they grew, arid,

desert land, you need to have (at least during those days) animal flesh to

survive specially considreing irrigation options were so scanty. If you live in

the Artic region, you need to have fish oil to survive the cold. The point is,

death is a part of life. One does not survive without death. That is how the

world has been designed by the grand designer.

>  

> What right I have, to snatch away even a single life in

> the universe for my selfish reasons. I consider that as very very

> cruel and that is the personal thinking why I am a vegetarian and not

> strictly due to any religious or cultural reason¡¨

>  

> What harm have plants done? Why not the same kind of feeling when it comes to

plant life? They too are living beings, just like anything else!

>  

> What you consider selfish maybe a law of nature.

>  

> Please understand I am not advocating non-vegetarianism. But if someone is to

do serious sadhana, no doubt vegetarian food is best. Otherwise, I am not sure

if it makes in any difference at all.

>  

> -Regards

> Rajarshi

>

>

>

>

>

> The upsurge (of consciousness) is Bhairava - Shiva Sutra

>

> --- On Fri, 11/12/09, vedic_pathak <vedic_pathak wrote:

>

>

> vedic_pathak <vedic_pathak

> Re: Veg Vs. Non-Veg

>

> Friday, 11 December, 2009, 7:36 PM

>

>

>  

>

>

>

>

> Namasrte SriRam,

> Long back, i had posted the below message on this list.

> I've put my argument in the message in which i firmly belive.

> Its possible this may change the mind of your friend.

> http://groups. / group/vedic- wisdom/message/ 411

> The exact Argument is given again as under which is the extract from the above

message:

> [

> I couldn¡¦t hold back myself and honestly explained my

> conclusive view point on the whole subject as follow

> ¡§I don¡¦t wish to stuff my stomach with the body parts of killed

> creature. Would never think of troubling any leaving creature when

> mother-nature has provided enough alternate food. Just for the sake

> of filling my stomach or satisfying cravings of my tongue, I won¡¦t be

> responsible for killing innocent birds, animals, fishes directly or

> indirectly. What right I have, to snatch away even a single life in

> the universe for my selfish reasons. I consider that as very very

> cruel and that is the personal thinking why I am a vegetarian and not

> strictly due to any religious or cultural reason¡¨

> ]

> Even if Shri Krishna has not mentioned a direct wording of Non-vegetarian food

in Geeta, it is not right to take that excuse for slottering creatures.

> I ask any body to think for him/her self in the light of what is right and

what is not...

> Best Regards,

> Utpal

>  

>  

>  

>

>  

>

> , Astro Seeker <astro.seeker@ ...> wrote:

> >

> > Namaste,

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > I am a firm believer of Veg being satwik food and consider non-veg as hurdle

to spiritual growth. But, a friend of mine who otherwise is trying to make some

spiritual progress, is a non-vegetatian. In our arguments over non-veg food, he

has put a counter argument. He says that if I can find him a single shloka on

this in Bhagwat Geeta, he would give up. 

> > So, if anybody on this group can help me find the quote, it would be great.

He considers Geeta as the absolute reference and believes if Lord Krishna has

not spoken about it in Geeta, it is actually not worth discussing whether or not

you take non-veg. If anyone finds it, le me know so that 1 guy on this earth can

become vegetarian.

> > He also quotes Sai Baba, Jesus and Mohammed Prophet adhering to non-veg. If

any of you know the counter argument, please help.

> > Best Regards,Sriram

> >

> >

> > The INTERNET now has a personality. YOURS! See your Homepage.

http://in.. com/

> >

>

>

The INTERNET now has a personality. YOURS! See your Homepage.

http://in./

>

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Posted

Namaste Prasanna,

 

I've seen over some years and almost convinced that arguments and debates does

not make sense to people.

 

That is why i bluntly give my opinion if pressed hard and that is - " I dont want

to kill and eat " .

Plain and simple. No other reasoning.

and debates are closed!

 

Thanks & Regards,

 

Utpal

 

, Prasanna Chebbi <nolatrader wrote:

>

> NaMASTE

> Good arguments from both ends. But Remember without plants no one can survive.

Animals have nervous system that makes them to move aways or show pain when you

try to hurt it or kill it. Try for plants and you won't see it and I have not

see it anyways.   I understand your argument of eating animal as last mode of

survival, but NOT AS necessaray in my view in this modern convenient world. 

People who likes to eat find any argument to eat it as its their part of

religion or customs.   Jokingly Iasked in my American freinds in my office

why not eat dogs cats as they have meats too?  They found it appaling and

understood my point of view.  Those who argue for protein needs should

understanbd that most of us do not even do ardous phyiscal work that was the

norm in the olden days or some kid of sports training or jobs involving physical

which can justify meat consumption, i feel do not need of protein from animal

source at all

>  

> When few of my American and other European freinds who are  affiliated to

ISKCON are Pure Vegetarians after embarassing part of Krishna Culure that I have

seen , Why its so difficult for our Hindu freinds to change their habits to

achieve Sadhana or Spiritual uplifting which is VERY easy to at modern times

like now which has so much choices.   If they do not want to be vegetarians,

they always bring argument which suits thier mindsets in my view.  Biggest

Animals on the earth Elephant is vegetarian and so is Rhino and so were biggest

dinosaurs.

>

> Of course 99% people do eat meat. Remember as with anything,  not  all 99%

people are CEO's or Spiritual leaders or sasdhana achievers. I found it to be

happy being minority as they say you have to be weird to be suceessful in any

field.

>  

> My 3 cents

>  

> Thanks

> Prasanna

> --- On Fri, 12/11/09, rajarshi nandy <rajarshi14 wrote:

>

>

> rajarshi nandy <rajarshi14

> Re: Re: Veg Vs. Non-Veg (From a non-vegetarian's point

of view)

>

> Friday, December 11, 2009, 9:07 AM

>

>

>  

>

>

Dear Utpal,

>  

> I slightly disagree with your below mail. Without offence, let me state a few

counter point for the sake of a discussion from a non-vegetarian' s point of

view. You said:

>  

> ¡§I don¡¦t wish to stuff my stomach with the body parts of killed

> creature. Would never think of troubling any leaving creature when

> mother-nature has provided enough alternate food.

>  

> Even plants are living. The air we breath is living (organisms). Death is part

and parcel of natural law. One cannot avoid it however much one tries. The

Abrahamic religions are heavy on non-veg food. The areas where they grew, arid,

desert land, you need to have (at least during those days) animal flesh to

survive specially considreing irrigation options were so scanty. If you live in

the Artic region, you need to have fish oil to survive the cold. The point is,

death is a part of life. One does not survive without death. That is how the

world has been designed by the grand designer.

>  

> What right I have, to snatch away even a single life in

> the universe for my selfish reasons. I consider that as very very

> cruel and that is the personal thinking why I am a vegetarian and not

> strictly due to any religious or cultural reason¡¨

>  

> What harm have plants done? Why not the same kind of feeling when it comes to

plant life? They too are living beings, just like anything else!

>  

> What you consider selfish maybe a law of nature.

>  

> Please understand I am not advocating non-vegetarianism. But if someone is to

do serious sadhana, no doubt vegetarian food is best. Otherwise, I am not sure

if it makes in any difference at all.

>  

> -Regards

> Rajarshi

>

>

>

>

>

> The upsurge (of consciousness) is Bhairava - Shiva Sutra

>

> --- On Fri, 11/12/09, vedic_pathak <vedic_pathak@ > wrote:

>

>

> vedic_pathak <vedic_pathak@ >

> Re: Veg Vs. Non-Veg

>

> Friday, 11 December, 2009, 7:36 PM

>

>

>  

>

>

> Namasrte SriRam,

> Long back, i had posted the below message on this list.

> I've put my argument in the message in which i firmly belive.

> Its possible this may change the mind of your friend.

> http://groups. / group/vedic- wisdom/message/ 411

> The exact Argument is given again as under which is the extract from the above

message:

> [

> I couldn¡¦t hold back myself and honestly explained my

> conclusive view point on the whole subject as follow

> ¡§I don¡¦t wish to stuff my stomach with the body parts of killed

> creature. Would never think of troubling any leaving creature when

> mother-nature has provided enough alternate food. Just for the sake

> of filling my stomach or satisfying cravings of my tongue, I won¡¦t be

> responsible for killing innocent birds, animals, fishes directly or

> indirectly. What right I have, to snatch away even a single life in

> the universe for my selfish reasons. I consider that as very very

> cruel and that is the personal thinking why I am a vegetarian and not

> strictly due to any religious or cultural reason¡¨

> ]

> Even if Shri Krishna has not mentioned a direct wording of Non-vegetarian food

in Geeta, it is not right to take that excuse for slottering creatures.

> I ask any body to think for him/her self in the light of what is right and

what is not...

> Best Regards,

> Utpal

>  

>  

>  

>

>  

>

> , Astro Seeker <astro.seeker@ ...> wrote:

> >

> > Namaste,

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > I am a firm believer of Veg being satwik food and consider non-veg as hurdle

to spiritual growth. But, a friend of mine who otherwise is trying to make some

spiritual progress, is a non-vegetatian. In our arguments over non-veg food, he

has put a counter argument. He says that if I can find him a single shloka on

this in Bhagwat Geeta, he would give up. 

> > So, if anybody on this group can help me find the quote, it would be great.

He considers Geeta as the absolute reference and believes if Lord Krishna has

not spoken about it in Geeta, it is actually not worth discussing whether or not

you take non-veg. If anyone finds it, le me know so that 1 guy on this earth can

become vegetarian.

> > He also quotes Sai Baba, Jesus and Mohammed Prophet adhering to non-veg. If

any of you know the counter argument, please help.

> > Best Regards,Sriram

> >

> >

> > The INTERNET now has a personality. YOURS! See your Homepage.

http://in.. com/

> >

>

>

>

> The INTERNET now has a personality. YOURS! See your Homepage.

>

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Posted
Posted

Namaste,

 

Here is something to consider. Most members of the society for

prevention of cruelty to animals (SPCA and similar organizations) in

North America and Europe are non-vegetarians. They believe that animals

that look cute and are friendly to humans should be treated properly and

all other animals which fit in the food chain should be killed

*humanely*and eaten. In the US, a famous athelete called Michael Vick

lost all of his fortune as he was convicted of cruel behaviour to

animals when he was taken to task by this same group of people.

 

I would request any member to define *humane* killing. It is almost an

oxymoron since to be humane is *to be*

 

I would encourage people to watch the movie *Fast Food Nation*. It

shows the inside story of beef factories and what happens and how

humanely the cows are killed before they end up in burgers and stakes

and what not. Not suitable for those faint of heart. Anyone with a

spiritual seed in their heart will think seriously about giving up beef

after watching this movie.

 

My 2 cents

 

Veenu

 

 

, " vedic_pathak " <vedic_pathak

wrote:

>

> Namaste Prasanna,

>

> I've seen over some years and almost convinced that arguments and

debates does not make sense to people.

>

> That is why i bluntly give my opinion if pressed hard and that is - " I

dont want to kill and eat " .

> Plain and simple. No other reasoning.

> and debates are closed!

>

> Thanks & Regards,

>

> Utpal

>

> , Prasanna Chebbi nolatrader@

wrote:

> >

> > NaMASTE

> > Good arguments from both ends. But Remember without plants no one

can survive. Animals have nervous system that makes them to move aways

or show pain when you try to hurt it or kill it. Try for plants and you

won't see it and I have not see it anyways.  I understand your

argument of eating animal as last mode of survival, but NOT AS

necessaray in my view in this modern convenient world. People who

likes to eat find any argument to eat it as its their part of

religion or customs.  Jokingly Iasked in my American freinds in

my office why not eat dogs cats as they have meats too? They

found it appaling and understood my point of view. Those who argue

for protein needs should understanbd that most of us do not even do

ardous phyiscal work that was the norm in the olden days or some kid of

sports training or jobs involving physical which can justify meat

consumption, i feel do not need of protein from animal source at all

> > Â

> > When few of my American and other European freinds who are Â

affiliated to ISKCON are Pure Vegetarians after embarassing part of

Krishna Culure that I have seen , Why its so difficult for our Hindu

freinds to change their habits to achieve Sadhana or Spiritual uplifting

which is VERY easy to at modern times like now which has so much

choices.  If they do not want to be vegetarians, they always

bring argument which suits thier mindsets in my view. Biggest

Animals on the earth Elephant is vegetarian and so is Rhino and so were

biggest dinosaurs.

> >

> > Of course 99% people do eat meat. Remember as with anything, Â

not all 99% people are CEO's or Spiritual leaders or sasdhana

achievers. I found it to be happy being minority as they say you have to

be weird to be suceessful in any field.

> > Â

> > My 3 cents

> > Â

> > Thanks

> > Prasanna

> > --- On Fri, 12/11/09, rajarshi nandy rajarshi14@ wrote:

> >

> >

> > rajarshi nandy rajarshi14@

> > Re: Re: Veg Vs. Non-Veg (From a

non-vegetarian's point of view)

> >

> > Friday, December 11, 2009, 9:07 AM

> >

> >

> > Â

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > Dear Utpal,

> > Â

> > I slightly disagree with your below mail. Without offence, let me

state a few counter point for the sake of a discussion from a

non-vegetarian' s point of view. You said:

> > Â

> > ¡§I don¡¦t wish to stuff my stomach with the body parts of

killed

> > creature. Would never think of troubling any leaving creature when

> > mother-nature has provided enough alternate food.

> > Â

> > Even plants are living. The air we breath is living (organisms).

Death is part and parcel of natural law. One cannot avoid it however

much one tries. The Abrahamic religions are heavy on non-veg food. The

areas where they grew, arid, desert land, you need to have (at least

during those days) animal flesh to survive specially considreing

irrigation options were so scanty. If you live in the Artic region,

you need to have fish oil to survive the cold. The point is, death

is a part of life. One does not survive without death. That is how the

world has been designed by the grand designer.

> > Â

> > What right I have, to snatch away even a single life in

> > the universe for my selfish reasons. I consider that as very very

> > cruel and that is the personal thinking why I am a vegetarian and

not

> > strictly due to any religious or cultural reason¡¨

> > Â

> > What harm have plants done? Why not the same kind of feeling when it

comes to plant life? They too are living beings, just like anything

else!

> > Â

> > What you consider selfish maybe a law of nature.

> > Â

> > Please understand I am not advocating non-vegetarianism. But if

someone is to do serious sadhana, no doubt vegetarian food is best.

Otherwise, I am not sure if it makes in any difference at all.

> > Â

> > -Regards

> > Rajarshi

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > The upsurge (of consciousness) is Bhairava - Shiva Sutra

> >

> > --- On Fri, 11/12/09, vedic_pathak <vedic_pathak@ > wrote:

> >

> >

> > vedic_pathak <vedic_pathak@ >

> > Re: Veg Vs. Non-Veg

> >

> > Friday, 11 December, 2009, 7:36 PM

> >

> >

> > Â

> >

> >

> > Namasrte SriRam,

> > Long back, i had posted the below message on this list.

> > I've put my argument in the message in which i firmly belive.

> > Its possible this may change the mind of your friend.

> > http://groups. / group/vedic- wisdom/message/ 411

> > The exact Argument is given again as under which is the extract from

the above message:

> > [

> > I couldn¡¦t hold back myself and honestly explained my

> > conclusive view point on the whole subject as follow

> > ¡§I don¡¦t wish to stuff my stomach with the body parts of

killed

> > creature. Would never think of troubling any leaving creature when

> > mother-nature has provided enough alternate food. Just for the sake

> > of filling my stomach or satisfying cravings of my tongue, I

won¡¦t be

> > responsible for killing innocent birds, animals, fishes directly or

> > indirectly. What right I have, to snatch away even a single life in

> > the universe for my selfish reasons. I consider that as very very

> > cruel and that is the personal thinking why I am a vegetarian and

not

> > strictly due to any religious or cultural reason¡¨

> > ]

> > Even if Shri Krishna has not mentioned a direct wording of

Non-vegetarian food in Geeta, it is not right to take that excuse for

slottering creatures.

> > I ask any body to think for him/her self in the light of what is

right and what is not...

> > Best Regards,

> > Utpal

> > Â

> > Â

> > Â

> >

> > Â

> >

> > , Astro Seeker <astro.seeker@

....> wrote:

> > >

> > > Namaste,

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > I am a firm believer of Veg being satwik food and consider non-veg

as hurdle to spiritual growth. But, a friend of mine who otherwise is

trying to make some spiritual progress, is a non-vegetatian. In our

arguments over non-veg food, he has put a counter argument. He says that

if I can find him a single shloka on this in Bhagwat Geeta, he would

give up.Â

> > > So, if anybody on this group can help me find the quote, it would

be great. He considers Geeta as the absolute reference and believes if

Lord Krishna has not spoken about it in Geeta, it is actually not worth

discussing whether or not you take non-veg. If anyone finds it, le me

know so that 1 guy on this earth can become vegetarian.

> > > He also quotes Sai Baba, Jesus and Mohammed Prophet adhering to

non-veg. If any of you know the counter argument, please help.

> > > Best Regards,Sriram

> > >

> > >

> > > The INTERNET now has a personality. YOURS! See your

Homepage. http://in.. com/

> > >

> >

> >

> >

> > The INTERNET now has a personality. YOURS! See your Homepage.

> >

>

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Posted
Posted

Namaste Veenu,

 

>I would encourage people to watch the movie *Fast Food Nation*. It

>shows the inside story of beef factories and what happens and how

>humanely the cows are killed before they end up in burgers

 

This reminded me that the German Girl whom i mentioned in my previous massage

was actually influenced by a German movie, i guess may be a simmilar kind of

movie, after seeing which, the girl became strictly vegetarian.

 

Thanks.

 

Utpal

 

, " homamstudent " <vedichoroscope wrote:

>

>

> Namaste,

>

> Here is something to consider. Most members of the society for

> prevention of cruelty to animals (SPCA and similar organizations) in

> North America and Europe are non-vegetarians. They believe that animals

> that look cute and are friendly to humans should be treated properly and

> all other animals which fit in the food chain should be killed

> *humanely*and eaten. In the US, a famous athelete called Michael Vick

> lost all of his fortune as he was convicted of cruel behaviour to

> animals when he was taken to task by this same group of people.

>

> I would request any member to define *humane* killing. It is almost an

> oxymoron since to be humane is *to be*

>

> I would encourage people to watch the movie *Fast Food Nation*. It

> shows the inside story of beef factories and what happens and how

> humanely the cows are killed before they end up in burgers and stakes

> and what not. Not suitable for those faint of heart. Anyone with a

> spiritual seed in their heart will think seriously about giving up beef

> after watching this movie.

>

> My 2 cents

>

> Veenu

>

>

> , " vedic_pathak " <vedic_pathak@>

> wrote:

> >

> > Namaste Prasanna,

> >

> > I've seen over some years and almost convinced that arguments and

> debates does not make sense to people.

> >

> > That is why i bluntly give my opinion if pressed hard and that is - " I

> dont want to kill and eat " .

> > Plain and simple. No other reasoning.

> > and debates are closed!

> >

> > Thanks & Regards,

> >

> > Utpal

> >

> > , Prasanna Chebbi nolatrader@

> wrote:

> > >

> > > NaMASTE

> > > Good arguments from both ends. But Remember without plants no one

> can survive. Animals have nervous system that makes them to move aways

> or show pain when you try to hurt it or kill it. Try for plants and you

> won't see it and I have not see it anyways.  I understand your

> argument of eating animal as last mode of survival, but NOT AS

> necessaray in my view in this modern convenient world. People who

> likes to eat find any argument to eat it as its their part of

> religion or customs.  Jokingly Iasked in my American freinds in

> my office why not eat dogs cats as they have meats too? They

> found it appaling and understood my point of view. Those who argue

> for protein needs should understanbd that most of us do not even do

> ardous phyiscal work that was the norm in the olden days or some kid of

> sports training or jobs involving physical which can justify meat

> consumption, i feel do not need of protein from animal source at all

> > > Â

> > > When few of my American and other European freinds who are Â

> affiliated to ISKCON are Pure Vegetarians after embarassing part of

> Krishna Culure that I have seen , Why its so difficult for our Hindu

> freinds to change their habits to achieve Sadhana or Spiritual uplifting

> which is VERY easy to at modern times like now which has so much

> choices.  If they do not want to be vegetarians, they always

> bring argument which suits thier mindsets in my view. Biggest

> Animals on the earth Elephant is vegetarian and so is Rhino and so were

> biggest dinosaurs.

> > >

> > > Of course 99% people do eat meat. Remember as with anything, Â

> not all 99% people are CEO's or Spiritual leaders or sasdhana

> achievers. I found it to be happy being minority as they say you have to

> be weird to be suceessful in any field.

> > > Â

> > > My 3 cents

> > > Â

> > > Thanks

> > > Prasanna

> > > --- On Fri, 12/11/09, rajarshi nandy rajarshi14@ wrote:

> > >

> > >

> > > rajarshi nandy rajarshi14@

> > > Re: Re: Veg Vs. Non-Veg (From a

> non-vegetarian's point of view)

> > >

> > > Friday, December 11, 2009, 9:07 AM

> > >

> > >

> > > Â

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > Dear Utpal,

> > > Â

> > > I slightly disagree with your below mail. Without offence, let me

> state a few counter point for the sake of a discussion from a

> non-vegetarian' s point of view. You said:

> > > Â

> > > ¡§I don¡¦t wish to stuff my stomach with the body parts of

> killed

> > > creature. Would never think of troubling any leaving creature when

> > > mother-nature has provided enough alternate food.

> > > Â

> > > Even plants are living. The air we breath is living (organisms).

> Death is part and parcel of natural law. One cannot avoid it however

> much one tries. The Abrahamic religions are heavy on non-veg food. The

> areas where they grew, arid, desert land, you need to have (at least

> during those days) animal flesh to survive specially considreing

> irrigation options were so scanty. If you live in the Artic region,

> you need to have fish oil to survive the cold. The point is, death

> is a part of life. One does not survive without death. That is how the

> world has been designed by the grand designer.

> > > Â

> > > What right I have, to snatch away even a single life in

> > > the universe for my selfish reasons. I consider that as very very

> > > cruel and that is the personal thinking why I am a vegetarian and

> not

> > > strictly due to any religious or cultural reason¡¨

> > > Â

> > > What harm have plants done? Why not the same kind of feeling when it

> comes to plant life? They too are living beings, just like anything

> else!

> > > Â

> > > What you consider selfish maybe a law of nature.

> > > Â

> > > Please understand I am not advocating non-vegetarianism. But if

> someone is to do serious sadhana, no doubt vegetarian food is best.

> Otherwise, I am not sure if it makes in any difference at all.

> > > Â

> > > -Regards

> > > Rajarshi

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > The upsurge (of consciousness) is Bhairava - Shiva Sutra

> > >

> > > --- On Fri, 11/12/09, vedic_pathak <vedic_pathak@ > wrote:

> > >

> > >

> > > vedic_pathak <vedic_pathak@ >

> > > Re: Veg Vs. Non-Veg

> > >

> > > Friday, 11 December, 2009, 7:36 PM

> > >

> > >

> > > Â

> > >

> > >

> > > Namasrte SriRam,

> > > Long back, i had posted the below message on this list.

> > > I've put my argument in the message in which i firmly belive.

> > > Its possible this may change the mind of your friend.

> > > http://groups. / group/vedic- wisdom/message/ 411

> > > The exact Argument is given again as under which is the extract from

> the above message:

> > > [

> > > I couldn¡¦t hold back myself and honestly explained my

> > > conclusive view point on the whole subject as follow

> > > ¡§I don¡¦t wish to stuff my stomach with the body parts of

> killed

> > > creature. Would never think of troubling any leaving creature when

> > > mother-nature has provided enough alternate food. Just for the sake

> > > of filling my stomach or satisfying cravings of my tongue, I

> won¡¦t be

> > > responsible for killing innocent birds, animals, fishes directly or

> > > indirectly. What right I have, to snatch away even a single life in

> > > the universe for my selfish reasons. I consider that as very very

> > > cruel and that is the personal thinking why I am a vegetarian and

> not

> > > strictly due to any religious or cultural reason¡¨

> > > ]

> > > Even if Shri Krishna has not mentioned a direct wording of

> Non-vegetarian food in Geeta, it is not right to take that excuse for

> slottering creatures.

> > > I ask any body to think for him/her self in the light of what is

> right and what is not...

> > > Best Regards,

> > > Utpal

> > > Â

> > > Â

> > > Â

> > >

> > > Â

> > >

> > > , Astro Seeker <astro.seeker@

> ...> wrote:

> > > >

> > > > Namaste,

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > I am a firm believer of Veg being satwik food and consider non-veg

> as hurdle to spiritual growth. But, a friend of mine who otherwise is

> trying to make some spiritual progress, is a non-vegetatian. In our

> arguments over non-veg food, he has put a counter argument. He says that

> if I can find him a single shloka on this in Bhagwat Geeta, he would

> give up.Â

> > > > So, if anybody on this group can help me find the quote, it would

> be great. He considers Geeta as the absolute reference and believes if

> Lord Krishna has not spoken about it in Geeta, it is actually not worth

> discussing whether or not you take non-veg. If anyone finds it, le me

> know so that 1 guy on this earth can become vegetarian.

> > > > He also quotes Sai Baba, Jesus and Mohammed Prophet adhering to

> non-veg. If any of you know the counter argument, please help.

> > > > Best Regards,Sriram

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > The INTERNET now has a personality. YOURS! See your

> Homepage. http://in.. com/

> > > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > The INTERNET now has a personality. YOURS! See your Homepage.

> > >

> >

>

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Posted
Posted

Dear Utpal,

 

I hope you or others won't get offended by my mails. Please take them in the right vein. I am merely discussing. Now some points:

 

 

But I have often feel that they are themselves are not convinced when they argue. they are 'hollow' arguments. However , I'll honestly say that i have no answers for 'life in a Plant'.

When I used to eat non-vegetarian food many of my friends who were vegetarian people would give me a similar logic, as you mentioned in your first writing. My point is, as a non-vegetarian I am not claiming that I have any special sensitivity to plants, over animals. No. All I am saying is that, this logic that many vegetarian people provide to convince average non-veg people to quit eating non-veg, does not hold good.

 

I personally can not look at butchery shops where one finds hanging goats. its pathetic site. People in their excitements stand in queue to see the cutting of throat of a chicken and then take away that as parcel. The flash of so cruelly butchered Chicken or a Goat or a cow or pig, is so tasty for the humans that they just overlook the voice of their inner self. a fish which comes out of water is such a disturbing site. Panting for water (i don't have proper English word to describe the condition of a fish out of water). and then the dead fish thus is so tasty.

 

I understand and appreciate you feelings, but I personally do not share them. Call me cruel hearted.

 

When the question of sensitivity comes in, there is no universal standard for such. It is moslty a case of conditioning. What one feels disgusted or pained about may not affect another. Same rule cannot be used to judge everyone.

 

Some of my non-vegetarian friends were watching discovery channel where they showed that people in some parts of the world eat insects. My friends seemed disgusted. I asked them, "Why?". If you can eat a chicken or a fish, what is wrong if someone eats an insect. Just because one is born in a certain area in a certain culture in a certain set of value, one gets the believe that what one is not accustomed to must be incorrect. I told them if in a future life time they were to be born in that place, they would gladly keep eating insects without the slightest doubt in their mind. We humans are incorrigible product of our own conditions which in my opinion is all right. BUT the problem happens when we think our conditions are the only possible conditioning in the world, and therefore we wonder why don't others share similar ideas. That is incorrect. Nature has created the world diverse, and so it is. Everything is desh-kaal-patra. A person who is a

vegetarian in this life, if he gets born in a place/culture/family in a later lifetime which eats non-vegetarian food, he would not even bat an eye lid while eating the same. I know people who faint at the sight of blood, but there are doctors who do multiple operations daily. So my point is, personal sensitivity can be a very good reason for an individual, but it cannot be a universal logic applicable to all.

 

A far better angle of tackling this is the idea of karma. Even then, if someone can make sure he is not directly killing an animal, not selecting a live animal to be killed, but rather buys dead meat/fish/egg, the karma generated can be handled easily. Further, if someone (a non-vegetarian) does not want to deal in the raw flesh, he can buy some cooked non-vegetarian food. The amount of karma that you would get for it is quite acceptble IMO. It can be easily handled. It is similar to the one you would get for buying some simple daal which has come to the market through the hands of a middle man who has cheated the farmer, or God knows what else. There is karmic repurcussions in all food we eat in this age. It is unavoidable. There are some eggs - broiler eggs - which never hatch into eggs. They are designed to be eaten because they never grow into an animal. Alsmot like dead from birth. What karma does one get for consuming that? God

knows.

 

An average non-vegetarian, at least in India, to be precise is actually an omnivorous. His staple diet consists of 80 percent vegetables/pulses etc and 20 percent non-veg. From a scientific point of view, this is a good combination. People who feed on more than 60 percent non-veg food in their staple diet, are prone to serious heath issues at a younger age. But this 80-20 veg/non-veg, is biologically good.

 

 

If we don't eat fish then sea will be full of fishes:), Earth will be full of chickens:0, Veg food will become unaffordable if everybody will become vegetarian :Etc...are more often than not, put up such arguments to defend however as i said earlier they are themselves not convinced.

The above arguments are incorrect. I know some non-vegetarian people who provide such arguements, but these arguments are nonsensical and childish. Almost Zakir Naik style of arguments.

 

Anyway, my point is, I understand that it is good to eat totally vegetarian food when you engage in sadhana, specially things like havans, or else it conflicts with your system badly.

 

But to say that it is immoral or that one does not reach God if one consumes non-vegetarian food, is illogical, incorrect and pure bunkum.I know a devotee of Krishna - not just a devotee but one who sees Krishna during his meditations and have experienced samadhi many times over, who is omnivorous. For any average person, not engaging himself/herself in specific sadhanas, I see no harm in having an omnivorous diet with a 80/20 vegetarian/non-vegetarian combination.

 

 

-Regards

Rajarshi

 

The upsurge (of consciousness) is Bhairava - Shiva Sutra--- On Fri, 11/12/09, vedic_pathak <vedic_pathak wrote:

vedic_pathak <vedic_pathak Re: Veg Vs. Non-Veg (From a non-vegetarian's point of view) Date: Friday, 11 December, 2009, 10:29 PM

Dear Rajarshi,As you have said, Most of these are sure shot arguments from the people who eat Meat/fish. But I have often feel that they are themselves are not convinced when they argue. they are 'hollow' arguments. However , I'll honestly say that i have no answers for 'life in a Plant'.The people who argue such as': Most eat meat in the world, Egg is vegetarian, Plant also has life, One will not get required nourishments only with vegetarian food, If we don't eat fish then sea will be full of fishes:), Earth will be full of chickens:0, Veg food will become unaffordable if everybody will become vegetarian :Etc...are more often than not, put up such arguments to defend however as i said earlier they are themselves not convinced.Vegeterian people have their own arguments but all these are mere arguments. I personally can not look at butchery shops where one finds hanging goats. its pathetic site. People in their excitements

stand in queue to see the cutting of throat of a chicken and then take away that as parcel. The flash of so cruelly butchered Chicken or a Goat or a cow or pig, is so tasty for the humans that they just overlook the voice of their inner self. a fish which comes out of water is such a disturbing site. Panting for water (i don't have proper English word to describe the condition of a fish out of water). and then the dead fish thus is so tasty.The bottom line is that "They cannot overcome" the cravings for the meat, fish and eggs. This is a naked reality.Dear Rajarshi, However i try, i am not convinced with arguments in favour of Nonveg food. Only at the cold places and deserts where survival was the main consideration, i can slightly agree but that too during ancient days. not now...Now everywhere Veg food is easily available.***Few months back, a young girl from Germany came to work in my office for 6 months. once i casually

asked her as to what she eats during lunch. what she said was not at all expected. she said that she is pure vegetarian and eats only Veg food since 3 years now and wants to continue that way whole life. As expected, i was very happy and i further asked the reason. The answer she gave so much happiness. She said that She does not want to kill to eat. Vow! I salute her from my heart.Best Regards,Utpal, rajarshi nandy <rajarshi14@ ...> wrote:>> Dear Utpal,>  > I slightly disagree with your below mail. Without offence, let me state a few counter point for the sake of a discussion from a non-vegetarian' s point of view. You said:>  > ¡§I don¡¦t wish to

stuff my stomach with the body parts of killed> creature. Would never think of troubling any leaving creature when> mother-nature has provided enough alternate food. >  > Even plants are living. The air we breath is living (organisms). Death is part and parcel of natural law. One cannot avoid it however much one tries. The Abrahamic religions are heavy on non-veg food. The areas where they grew, arid, desert land, you need to have (at least during those days) animal flesh to survive specially considreing irrigation options were so scanty. If you live in the Artic region, you need to have fish oil to survive the cold. The point is, death is a part of life. One does not survive without death. That is how the world has been designed by the grand designer.>  > What right I have, to snatch away even a single life in> the universe for my selfish reasons. I consider that as very

very> cruel and that is the personal thinking why I am a vegetarian and not> strictly due to any religious or cultural reason¡¨>  > What harm have plants done? Why not the same kind of feeling when it comes to plant life? They too are living beings, just like anything else!>  > What you consider selfish maybe a law of nature. >  > Please understand I am not advocating non-vegetarianism. But if someone is to do serious sadhana, no doubt vegetarian food is best. Otherwise, I am not sure if it makes in any difference at all. >  > -Regards> Rajarshi> > > > > > The upsurge (of consciousness) is Bhairava - Shiva Sutra> > --- On Fri, 11/12/09, vedic_pathak <vedic_pathak@ ...> wrote:> > > vedic_pathak <vedic_pathak@ ...>>

Re: Veg Vs. Non-Veg> > Friday, 11 December, 2009, 7:36 PM> > >  > > > > > Namasrte SriRam,> Long back, i had posted the below message on this list.> I've put my argument in the message in which i firmly belive.> Its possible this may change the mind of your friend.> http://groups. / group/vedic- wisdom/message/ 411> The exact Argument is given again as under which is the extract from the above message:> [> I couldn¡¦t hold back myself and honestly explained my> conclusive view point on the whole subject as follow> ¡§I don¡¦t wish to

stuff my stomach with the body parts of killed> creature. Would never think of troubling any leaving creature when> mother-nature has provided enough alternate food. Just for the sake> of filling my stomach or satisfying cravings of my tongue, I won¡¦t be> responsible for killing innocent birds, animals, fishes directly or> indirectly. What right I have, to snatch away even a single life in> the universe for my selfish reasons. I consider that as very very> cruel and that is the personal thinking why I am a vegetarian and not> strictly due to any religious or cultural reason¡¨> ]> Even if Shri Krishna has not mentioned a direct wording of Non-vegetarian food in Geeta, it is not right to take that excuse for slottering creatures.> I ask any body to think for him/her self in the light of what is right and what is not...> Best Regards,> Utpal>

 >  >  > >  > > , Astro Seeker <astro.seeker@ ...> wrote:> >> > Namaste,> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I am a firm believer of Veg being satwik food and consider non-veg as hurdle to spiritual growth. But, a friend of mine who otherwise is trying to make some spiritual progress, is a non-vegetatian. In our arguments over non-veg food, he has put a counter argument. He says that if I can find him a single shloka on this in Bhagwat Geeta, he would give up. > > So, if anybody on this group can help me find the quote, it would be great. He considers Geeta as the absolute reference and believes if Lord Krishna has not

spoken about it in Geeta, it is actually not worth discussing whether or not you take non-veg. If anyone finds it, le me know so that 1 guy on this earth can become vegetarian.> > He also quotes Sai Baba, Jesus and Mohammed Prophet adhering to non-veg. If any of you know the counter argument, please help.> > Best Regards,Sriram> > > > > > The INTERNET now has a personality. YOURS! See your Homepage. http://in.. com/> >> > > > > > > > > The INTERNET now has a personality. YOURS! See your Homepage. http://in.. com/>

The INTERNET now has a personality. YOURS! See your Homepage.

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Posted

Dear Rajarshi,

Do not think that I'll be offended or misunderstand you to be a cruel hearted etc...

In this message, i am giving only what i feel right as per me and how i think about the whole issue myself. so pl. take that in consideration.

But to say that it is immoral or that one does not reach God if one consumes non-vegetarian food, is illogical, incorrect and pure bunkum.In my previous message, i've clarified some points. i put it again below:

Please do not consider my point for Veg/Nonveg with perspective ofSpiritual/Material, Good/Bad, Saatwik/Taamsik etc... My only point inVegterianism is related to Compession against cruelty. Dharma (Non Violence)against Adharama (Killing Innocent creatures).

***

Anyway, my point is, I understand that it is good to eat totally vegetarian food when you engage in sadhana, specially things like havans, or else it conflicts with your system badly.

In my opinion, Saadhana or No Saadhana, if something is not correct will remain Incorrect. killing for filling stomach is if Not right then for me it'll remain *Not right in all conditions*. it is a different matter, if in future i succumb to challanging conditions and start eating meat but even then it'll not justify and make it proper thing.

***Dear Rajarshi, Now i hope you don't get offended by my message. i apologise in advance for my bluntness.

your second Para and some writings in your earlier message gives me impression that you are heavily philosophising. Karama, Desh/kaal etc... does not appeal me. to be very honest.

In my opinon, if one can justify eating popular meat of chicken, etc.. then anything under the Sun is eatable. with that logic, those people who choose to eat Crab, Snakes, insects, cocroaches are perfectly alright. even people who have started eating human flesh are also acceptable and not doing anything wrong as per the 'their' thinking.

To talk about Karma, Conditioning, Culture etc..., and try to make quality judgements by the logic of 'Direct killing' and 'eating meat of already dead' does not go well with me. it is just a philosophy to cover up.

Poeple born in Those cultures have become Vegetarian becuase they hate killing invloved. I gave an example of one such person and there are few more i know. howvever they are very very very rare.

***

The above arguments are incorrect. I know some non-vegetarian people who provide such arguements, but these arguments are nonsensical and childish. Almost Zakir Naik style of arguments.

I agree completely. it is childish, Laughable and cruel jokes. Thats how i also take it when such people talk such nonsense.

***

Lastly, i'll add a philospohical thought. If so much of killing every hourly basis, mostly for the sole purpose of *Craving* goes on in the world, and the prime mover is Human society, then how we hope to have a peacefull world without blood shed and massacare. unfailing law of Karma (Cause & effect) will find many ways to give it back to (in)Human societies.

Om Shaanti Shaanti Shaanti:

Warm Regards,

Utpal

 

 

, rajarshi nandy <rajarshi14 wrote:>> Dear Utpal,>  > I hope you or others won't get offended by my mails. Please take them in the right vein. I am merely discussing. Now some points:>  >  > But I have often feel that they are themselves are not convinced when they argue. they are 'hollow' arguments. However , I'll honestly say that i have no answers for 'life in a Plant'.> > When I used to eat non-vegetarian food many of my friends who were vegetarian people would give me a similar logic, as you mentioned in your first writing. My point is, as a non-vegetarian I am not claiming that I have any special sensitivity to plants, over animals. No. All I am saying is that, this logic that many vegetarian people provide to convince average non-veg people to quit eating non-veg, does not hold good.>  > I personally can not look at butchery shops where one finds hanging goats. its pathetic site. People in their excitements stand in queue to see the cutting of throat of a chicken and then take away that as parcel. The flash of so cruelly butchered Chicken or a Goat or a cow or pig, is so tasty for the humans that they just overlook the voice of their inner self. a fish which comes out of water is such a disturbing site. Panting for water (i don't have proper English word to describe the condition of a fish out of water). and then the dead fish thus is so tasty.>  >  > I understand and appreciate you feelings, but I personally do not share them. Call me cruel hearted. >  > When the question of sensitivity comes in, there is no universal standard for such. It is moslty a case of conditioning. What one feels disgusted or pained about may not affect another. Same rule cannot be used to judge everyone. >  > Some of my non-vegetarian friends were watching discovery channel where they showed that people in some parts of the world eat insects. My friends seemed disgusted. I asked them, "Why?". If you can eat a chicken or a fish, what is wrong if someone eats an insect. Just because one is born in a certain area in a certain culture in a certain set of value, one gets the believe that what one is not accustomed to must be incorrect. I told them if in a future life time they were to be born in that place, they would gladly keep eating insects without the slightest doubt in their mind. We humans are incorrigible product of our own conditions which in my opinion is all right. BUT the problem happens when we think our conditions are the only possible conditioning in the world, and therefore we wonder why don't others share similar ideas. That is incorrect. Nature has created the world diverse, and so it is. Everything is desh-kaal-patra. A person who is a> vegetarian in this life, if he gets born in a place/culture/family in a later lifetime which eats non-vegetarian food, he would not even bat an eye lid while eating the same. I know people who faint at the sight of blood, but there are doctors who do multiple operations daily. So my point is, personal sensitivity can be a very good reason for an individual, but it cannot be a universal logic applicable to all.>  > A far better angle of tackling this is the idea of karma. Even then, if someone can make sure he is not directly killing an animal, not selecting a live animal to be killed, but rather buys dead meat/fish/egg, the karma generated can be handled easily. Further, if someone (a non-vegetarian) does not want to deal in the raw flesh, he can buy some cooked non-vegetarian food. The amount of karma that you would get for it is quite acceptble IMO. It can be easily handled. It is similar to the one you would get for buying some simple daal which has come to the market through the hands of a middle man who has cheated the farmer, or God knows what else. There is karmic repurcussions in all food we eat in this age. It is unavoidable. There are some eggs - broiler eggs - which never hatch into eggs. They are designed to be eaten because they never grow into an animal. Alsmot like dead from birth. What karma does one get for consuming that? God knows.>  > An average non-vegetarian, at least in India, to be precise is actually an omnivorous. His staple diet consists of 80 percent vegetables/pulses etc and 20 percent non-veg. From a scientific point of view, this is a good combination. People who feed on more than 60 percent non-veg food in their staple diet, are prone to serious heath issues at a younger age. But this 80-20 veg/non-veg, is biologically good.>  >  >  If we don't eat fish then sea will be full of fishes:), Earth will be full of chickens:0, Veg food will become unaffordable if everybody will become vegetarian :Etc...are more often than not, put up such arguments to defend however as i said earlier they are themselves not convinced.> > > The above arguments are incorrect. I know some non-vegetarian people who provide such arguements, but these arguments are nonsensical and childish. Almost Zakir Naik style of arguments.>  > Anyway, my point is, I understand that it is good to eat totally vegetarian food when you engage in sadhana, specially things like havans, or else it conflicts with your system badly. >  > But to say that it is immoral or that one does not reach God if one consumes non-vegetarian food, is illogical, incorrect and pure bunkum.I know a devotee of Krishna - not just a devotee but one who sees Krishna during his meditations and have experienced samadhi many times over, who is omnivorous. For any average person, not engaging himself/herself in specific sadhanas, I see no harm in having an omnivorous diet with a 80/20 vegetarian/non-vegetarian combination. >  >  > -Regards>  Rajarshi> > > The upsurge (of consciousness) is Bhairava - Shiva Sutra> > --- On Fri, 11/12/09, vedic_pathak vedic_pathak wrote:> > > vedic_pathak vedic_pathak Re: Veg Vs. Non-Veg (From a non-vegetarian's point of view)> > Friday, 11 December, 2009, 10:29 PM> > >  > > > > Dear Rajarshi,> > As you have said, Most of these are sure shot arguments from the people who eat Meat/fish. But I have often feel that they are themselves are not convinced when they argue. they are 'hollow' arguments. However , I'll honestly say that i have no answers for 'life in a Plant'.> > The people who argue such as': Most eat meat in the world, Egg is vegetarian, Plant also has life, One will not get required nourishments only with vegetarian food, If we don't eat fish then sea will be full of fishes:), Earth will be full of chickens:0, Veg food will become unaffordable if everybody will become vegetarian :Etc...are more often than not, put up such arguments to defend however as i said earlier they are themselves not convinced.> > Vegeterian people have their own arguments but all these are mere arguments. I personally can not look at butchery shops where one finds hanging goats. its pathetic site. People in their excitements stand in queue to see the cutting of throat of a chicken and then take away that as parcel. The flash of so cruelly butchered Chicken or a Goat or a cow or pig, is so tasty for the humans that they just overlook the voice of their inner self. a fish which comes out of water is such a disturbing site. Panting for water (i don't have proper English word to describe the condition of a fish out of water). and then the dead fish thus is so tasty.> > The bottom line is that "They cannot overcome" the cravings for the meat, fish and eggs. This is a naked reality.> > Dear Rajarshi, However i try, i am not convinced with arguments in favour of Nonveg food. Only at the cold places and deserts where survival was the main consideration, i can slightly agree but that too during ancient days. not now...Now everywhere Veg food is easily available.> > ***> Few months back, a young girl from Germany came to work in my office for 6 months. once i casually asked her as to what she eats during lunch. what she said was not at all expected. she said that she is pure vegetarian and eats only Veg food since 3 years now and wants to continue that way whole life. As expected, i was very happy and i further asked the reason. The answer she gave so much happiness. She said that She does not want to kill to eat. Vow! I salute her from my heart.> > Best Regards,> > Utpal> > , rajarshi nandy <rajarshi14@ ...> wrote:> >> > Dear Utpal,> >  > > I slightly disagree with your below mail. Without offence, let me state a few counter point for the sake of a discussion from a non-vegetarian' s point of view. You said:> >  > > ¡§I don¡¦t wish to stuff my stomach with the body parts of killed> > creature. Would never think of troubling any leaving creature when> > mother-nature has provided enough alternate food. > >  > > Even plants are living. The air we breath is living (organisms). Death is part and parcel of natural law. One cannot avoid it however much one tries. The Abrahamic religions are heavy on non-veg food. The areas where they grew, arid, desert land, you need to have (at least during those days) animal flesh to survive specially considreing irrigation options were so scanty. If you live in the Artic region, you need to have fish oil to survive the cold. The point is, death is a part of life. One does not survive without death. That is how the world has been designed by the grand designer.> >  > > What right I have, to snatch away even a single life in> > the universe for my selfish reasons. I consider that as very very> > cruel and that is the personal thinking why I am a vegetarian and not> > strictly due to any religious or cultural reason¡¨> >  > > What harm have plants done? Why not the same kind of feeling when it comes to plant life? They too are living beings, just like anything else!> >  > > What you consider selfish maybe a law of nature. > >  > > Please understand I am not advocating non-vegetarianism. But if someone is to do serious sadhana, no doubt vegetarian food is best. Otherwise, I am not sure if it makes in any difference at all. > >  > > -Regards> > Rajarshi> > > > > > > > > > > > The upsurge (of consciousness) is Bhairava - Shiva Sutra> > > > --- On Fri, 11/12/09, vedic_pathak <vedic_pathak@ ...> wrote:> > > > > > vedic_pathak <vedic_pathak@ ...>> > Re: Veg Vs. Non-Veg> > > > Friday, 11 December, 2009, 7:36 PM> > > > > >  > > > > > > > > > > Namasrte SriRam,> > Long back, i had posted the below message on this list.> > I've put my argument in the message in which i firmly belive.> > Its possible this may change the mind of your friend.> > http://groups. / group/vedic- wisdom/message/ 411> > The exact Argument is given again as under which is the extract from the above message:> > [> > I couldn¡¦t hold back myself and honestly explained my> > conclusive view point on the whole subject as follow> > ¡§I don¡¦t wish to stuff my stomach with the body parts of killed> > creature. Would never think of troubling any leaving creature when> > mother-nature has provided enough alternate food. Just for the sake> > of filling my stomach or satisfying cravings of my tongue, I won¡¦t be> > responsible for killing innocent birds, animals, fishes directly or> > indirectly. What right I have, to snatch away even a single life in> > the universe for my selfish reasons. I consider that as very very> > cruel and that is the personal thinking why I am a vegetarian and not> > strictly due to any religious or cultural reason¡¨> > ]> > Even if Shri Krishna has not mentioned a direct wording of Non-vegetarian food in Geeta, it is not right to take that excuse for slottering creatures.> > I ask any body to think for him/her self in the light of what is right and what is not...> > Best Regards,> > Utpal> >  > >  > >  > > > >  > > > > , Astro Seeker <astro.seeker@ ...> wrote:> > >> > > Namaste,> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I am a firm believer of Veg being satwik food and consider non-veg as hurdle to spiritual growth. But, a friend of mine who otherwise is trying to make some spiritual progress, is a non-vegetatian. In our arguments over non-veg food, he has put a counter argument. He says that if I can find him a single shloka on this in Bhagwat Geeta, he would give up. > > > So, if anybody on this group can help me find the quote, it would be great. He considers Geeta as the absolute reference and believes if Lord Krishna has not spoken about it in Geeta, it is actually not worth discussing whether or not you take non-veg. If anyone finds it, le me know so that 1 guy on this earth can become vegetarian.> > > He also quotes Sai Baba, Jesus and Mohammed Prophet adhering to non-veg. If any of you know the counter argument, please help.> > > Best Regards,Sriram> > > > > > > > > The INTERNET now has a personality. YOURS! See your Homepage. http://in.. com/> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The INTERNET now has a personality. YOURS! See your Homepage. http://in.. com/> >> > > > > > > > > > The INTERNET now has a personality. YOURS! See your Homepage. http://in./>

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when we breath we take in lot of bacteria and they are killed in the lungswhen we eat foot lot of bacteria are digested in stomachour white blood cells keep on destroying invaders into the bodythey are also living beingshow to account for themvedic_pathak <vedic_pathak Sent: Sat,

December 12, 2009 12:19:46 AM Re: Veg Vs. Non-Veg (From a non-vegetarian's point of view)

 

 

Dear Rajarshi,

Do not think that I'll be offended or misunderstand you to be a cruel hearted etc...

In this message, i am giving only what i feel right as per me and how i think about the whole issue myself. so pl. take that in consideration.

But to say that it is immoral or that one does not reach God if one consumes non-vegetarian food, is illogical, incorrect and pure bunkum.In my previous message, i've clarified some points. i put it again below:

Please do not consider my point for Veg/Nonveg with perspective ofSpiritual/Material, Good/Bad, Saatwik/Taamsik etc... My only point inVegterianism is related to Compession against cruelty. Dharma (Non Violence)against Adharama (Killing Innocent creatures).

***

Anyway, my point is, I understand that it is good to eat totally vegetarian food when you engage in sadhana, specially things like havans, or else it conflicts with your system badly.

In my opinion, Saadhana or No Saadhana, if something is not correct will remain Incorrect. killing for filling stomach is if Not right then for me it'll remain *Not right in all conditions*. it is a different matter, if in future i succumb to challanging conditions and start eating meat but even then it'll not justify and make it proper thing.

***Dear Rajarshi, Now i hope you don't get offended by my message. i apologise in advance for my bluntness.

your second Para and some writings in your earlier message gives me impression that you are heavily philosophising. Karama, Desh/kaal etc... does not appeal me. to be very honest.

In my opinon, if one can justify eating popular meat of chicken, etc.. then anything under the Sun is eatable. with that logic, those people who choose to eat Crab, Snakes, insects, cocroaches are perfectly alright. even people who have started eating human flesh are also acceptable and not doing anything wrong as per the 'their' thinking.

To talk about Karma, Conditioning, Culture etc..., and try to make quality judgements by the logic of 'Direct killing' and 'eating meat of already dead' does not go well with me. it is just a philosophy to cover up.

Poeple born in Those cultures have become Vegetarian becuase they hate killing invloved. I gave an example of one such person and there are few more i know. howvever they are very very very rare.

***

The above arguments are incorrect. I know some non-vegetarian people who provide such arguements, but these arguments are nonsensical and childish. Almost Zakir Naik style of arguments.

I agree completely. it is childish, Laughable and cruel jokes. Thats how i also take it when such people talk such nonsense.

***

Lastly, i'll add a philospohical thought. If so much of killing every hourly basis, mostly for the sole purpose of *Craving* goes on in the world, and the prime mover is Human society, then how we hope to have a peacefull world without blood shed and massacare. unfailing law of Karma (Cause & effect) will find many ways to give it back to (in)Human societies.

Om Shaanti Shaanti Shaanti:

Warm Regards,

Utpal

 

 

, rajarshi nandy <rajarshi14@. ..> wrote:>> Dear Utpal,>  > I hope you or others won't get offended by my mails. Please take them in the right vein. I am merely discussing. Now some points:>  >  > But I have often feel that they are themselves are not convinced when they argue. they are 'hollow' arguments. However , I'll honestly say that i have no answers for 'life in a Plant'.> > When I used to eat non-vegetarian food many of my friends who were vegetarian people would give me a similar logic, as you mentioned in your first writing. My point is, as a non-vegetarian I am not claiming that I have any special sensitivity to plants, over animals. No. All I am saying is that, this logic that many vegetarian people provide to convince average non-veg people to quit eating non-veg, does not hold good.>

 > I personally can not look at butchery shops where one finds hanging goats. its pathetic site. People in their excitements stand in queue to see the cutting of throat of a chicken and then take away that as parcel. The flash of so cruelly butchered Chicken or a Goat or a cow or pig, is so tasty for the humans that they just overlook the voice of their inner self. a fish which comes out of water is such a disturbing site. Panting for water (i don't have proper English word to describe the condition of a fish out of water). and then the dead fish thus is so tasty.>  >  > I understand and appreciate you feelings, but I personally do not share them. Call me cruel hearted. >  > When the question of sensitivity comes in, there is no universal standard for such. It is moslty a case of conditioning. What one feels disgusted or pained about may not affect another. Same rule cannot be used to

judge everyone. >  > Some of my non-vegetarian friends were watching discovery channel where they showed that people in some parts of the world eat insects. My friends seemed disgusted. I asked them, "Why?". If you can eat a chicken or a fish, what is wrong if someone eats an insect. Just because one is born in a certain area in a certain culture in a certain set of value, one gets the believe that what one is not accustomed to must be incorrect. I told them if in a future life time they were to be born in that place, they would gladly keep eating insects without the slightest doubt in their mind. We humans are incorrigible product of our own conditions which in my opinion is all right. BUT the problem happens when we think our conditions are the only possible conditioning in the world, and therefore we wonder why don't others share similar ideas. That is incorrect. Nature has created the world diverse, and so it is.

Everything is desh-kaal-patra. A person who is a> vegetarian in this life, if he gets born in a place/culture/ family in a later lifetime which eats non-vegetarian food, he would not even bat an eye lid while eating the same. I know people who faint at the sight of blood, but there are doctors who do multiple operations daily. So my point is, personal sensitivity can be a very good reason for an individual, but it cannot be a universal logic applicable to all.>  > A far better angle of tackling this is the idea of karma. Even then, if someone can make sure he is not directly killing an animal, not selecting a live animal to be killed, but rather buys dead meat/fish/egg, the karma generated can be handled easily. Further, if someone (a non-vegetarian) does not want to deal in the raw flesh, he can buy some cooked non-vegetarian food. The amount of karma that you would get for it is quite

acceptble IMO. It can be easily handled. It is similar to the one you would get for buying some simple daal which has come to the market through the hands of a middle man who has cheated the farmer, or God knows what else. There is karmic repurcussions in all food we eat in this age. It is unavoidable. There are some eggs - broiler eggs - which never hatch into eggs. They are designed to be eaten because they never grow into an animal. Alsmot like dead from birth. What karma does one get for consuming that? God knows.>  > An average non-vegetarian, at least in India, to be precise is actually an omnivorous. His staple diet consists of 80 percent vegetables/pulses etc and 20 percent non-veg. From a scientific point of view, this is a good combination. People who feed on more than 60 percent non-veg food in their staple diet, are prone to serious heath issues at a younger age. But this 80-20 veg/non-veg, is biologically

good.>  >  >  If we don't eat fish then sea will be full of fishes:), Earth will be full of chickens:0, Veg food will become unaffordable if everybody will become vegetarian :Etc...are more often than not, put up such arguments to defend however as i said earlier they are themselves not convinced.> > > The above arguments are incorrect. I know some non-vegetarian people who provide such arguements, but these arguments are nonsensical and childish. Almost Zakir Naik style of arguments.>  > Anyway, my point is, I understand that it is good to eat totally vegetarian food when you engage in sadhana, specially things like havans, or else it conflicts with your system badly. >  > But to say that it is immoral or that one does not reach God if one consumes non-vegetarian food, is illogical, incorrect and pure bunkum.I

know a devotee of Krishna - not just a devotee but one who sees Krishna during his meditations and have experienced samadhi many times over, who is omnivorous. For any average person, not engaging himself/herself in specific sadhanas, I see no harm in having an omnivorous diet with a 80/20 vegetarian/non- vegetarian combination. >  >  > -Regards>  Rajarshi> > > The upsurge (of consciousness) is Bhairava - Shiva Sutra> > --- On Fri, 11/12/09, vedic_pathak vedic_pathak@ ... wrote:> > > vedic_pathak vedic_pathak@ ...> Re: Veg Vs. Non-Veg (From a non-vegetarian' s point of view)> > Friday, 11 December, 2009, 10:29 PM> > >  > > > > Dear Rajarshi,> > As you have said,

Most of these are sure shot arguments from the people who eat Meat/fish. But I have often feel that they are themselves are not convinced when they argue. they are 'hollow' arguments. However , I'll honestly say that i have no answers for 'life in a Plant'.> > The people who argue such as': Most eat meat in the world, Egg is vegetarian, Plant also has life, One will not get required nourishments only with vegetarian food, If we don't eat fish then sea will be full of fishes:), Earth will be full of chickens:0, Veg food will become unaffordable if everybody will become vegetarian :Etc...are more often than not, put up such arguments to defend however as i said earlier they are themselves not convinced.> > Vegeterian people have their own arguments but all these are mere arguments. I personally can not look at butchery shops where one finds hanging goats. its pathetic site. People in their excitements stand in queue to see the

cutting of throat of a chicken and then take away that as parcel. The flash of so cruelly butchered Chicken or a Goat or a cow or pig, is so tasty for the humans that they just overlook the voice of their inner self. a fish which comes out of water is such a disturbing site. Panting for water (i don't have proper English word to describe the condition of a fish out of water). and then the dead fish thus is so tasty.> > The bottom line is that "They cannot overcome" the cravings for the meat, fish and eggs. This is a naked reality.> > Dear Rajarshi, However i try, i am not convinced with arguments in favour of Nonveg food. Only at the cold places and deserts where survival was the main consideration, i can slightly agree but that too during ancient days. not now...Now everywhere Veg food is easily available.> > ***> Few months back, a young girl from Germany came to work in my office for 6 months. once i

casually asked her as to what she eats during lunch. what she said was not at all expected. she said that she is pure vegetarian and eats only Veg food since 3 years now and wants to continue that way whole life. As expected, i was very happy and i further asked the reason. The answer she gave so much happiness. She said that She does not want to kill to eat. Vow! I salute her from my heart.> > Best Regards,> > Utpal> > , rajarshi nandy <rajarshi14@ ...> wrote:> >> > Dear Utpal,> >  > > I slightly disagree with your below mail. Without offence, let me state a few counter point for the sake of a discussion from a non-vegetarian' s point of view. You said:> >  > > ¡§I don¡¦t wish to stuff my stomach with the body parts of killed> >

creature. Would never think of troubling any leaving creature when> > mother-nature has provided enough alternate food. > >  > > Even plants are living. The air we breath is living (organisms). Death is part and parcel of natural law. One cannot avoid it however much one tries. The Abrahamic religions are heavy on non-veg food. The areas where they grew, arid, desert land, you need to have (at least during those days) animal flesh to survive specially considreing irrigation options were so scanty. If you live in the Artic region, you need to have fish oil to survive the cold. The point is, death is a part of life. One does not survive without death. That is how the world has been designed by the grand designer.> >  > > What right I have, to snatch away even a single life in> > the universe for my selfish reasons. I consider that as very

very> > cruel and that is the personal thinking why I am a vegetarian and not> > strictly due to any religious or cultural reason¡¨> >  > > What harm have plants done? Why not the same kind of feeling when it comes to plant life? They too are living beings, just like anything else!> >  > > What you consider selfish maybe a law of nature. > >  > > Please understand I am not advocating non-vegetarianism. But if someone is to do serious sadhana, no doubt vegetarian food is best. Otherwise, I am not sure if it makes in any difference at all. > >  > > -Regards> > Rajarshi> > > > > > > > > > > > The upsurge (of consciousness) is Bhairava - Shiva Sutra> > > > --- On Fri, 11/12/09, vedic_pathak

<vedic_pathak@ ...> wrote:> > > > > > vedic_pathak <vedic_pathak@ ...>> > Re: Veg Vs. Non-Veg> > > > Friday, 11 December, 2009, 7:36 PM> > > > > >  > > > > > > > > > > Namasrte SriRam,> > Long back, i had posted the below message on this list.> > I've put my argument in the message in which i firmly belive.> > Its possible this may change the mind of your friend.> > http://groups. / group/vedic- wisdom/message/ 411> > The exact Argument is given again as under which is the extract from the above message:> > [> > I couldn¡¦t hold back myself and honestly explained my>

> conclusive view point on the whole subject as follow> > ¡§I don¡¦t wish to stuff my stomach with the body parts of killed> > creature. Would never think of troubling any leaving creature when> > mother-nature has provided enough alternate food. Just for the sake> > of filling my stomach or satisfying cravings of my tongue, I won¡¦t be> > responsible for killing innocent birds, animals, fishes directly or> > indirectly. What right I have, to snatch away even a single life in> > the universe for my selfish reasons. I consider that as very very> > cruel and that is the personal thinking why I am a vegetarian and not> > strictly due to any religious or cultural reason¡¨> > ]> > Even if Shri Krishna has not mentioned a direct wording of Non-vegetarian food in Geeta, it is not right

to take that excuse for slottering creatures.> > I ask any body to think for him/her self in the light of what is right and what is not...> > Best Regards,> > Utpal> >  > >  > >  > > > >  > > > > , Astro Seeker <astro.seeker@ ...> wrote:> > >> > > Namaste,> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I am a firm believer of Veg being satwik food and consider non-veg as hurdle to spiritual growth. But, a friend of mine who otherwise is trying to make some spiritual progress, is a

non-vegetatian. In our arguments over non-veg food, he has put a counter argument. He says that if I can find him a single shloka on this in Bhagwat Geeta, he would give up. > > > So, if anybody on this group can help me find the quote, it would be great. He considers Geeta as the absolute reference and believes if Lord Krishna has not spoken about it in Geeta, it is actually not worth discussing whether or not you take non-veg. If anyone finds it, le me know so that 1 guy on this earth can become vegetarian.> > > He also quotes Sai Baba, Jesus and Mohammed Prophet adhering to non-veg. If any of you know the counter argument, please help.> > > Best Regards,Sriram> > > > > > > > > The INTERNET now has a personality. YOURS! See your Homepage. http://in.. com/> > >> >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The INTERNET now has a personality. YOURS! See your Homepage. http://in.. com/> >> > > > > > > > > > The INTERNET now has a personality. YOURS! See your Homepage. http://in.. com/>

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Sorry to sidetrack the main issue,

but my Astrology teacher says about longevity of a Native is determined by past Karma and Brahma allots a count ( say a few billion life forms) for the native to kill in this life time be it bacteria, microbes etc. etc. Thus a person breathing in, taking food ( kills these bacteria, microbes etc. ) fulfills his quota in this life time which determines longevity of the native. So, a person who takes mita ( moderation) in everything lives longer, less number of breaths /per minutes, less food etc... But then why is the saying "Paapi Chirayu" !!! Can't seem to make sense of this saying!--- On Sat, 12/12/09, Se Am <mahalaxmyey wrote:

Se Am <mahalaxmyeyRe: Re: Veg Vs. Non-Veg (From a non-vegetarian's point of view) Date: Saturday, December 12, 2009, 9:38 AM

 

 

when we breath we take in lot of bacteria and they are killed in the lungswhen we eat foot lot of bacteria are digested in stomachour white blood cells keep on destroying invaders into the bodythey are also living beingshow to account for them

 

 

 

vedic_pathak <vedic_pathak@ >Sat, December 12, 2009 12:19:46 AM Re: Veg Vs. Non-Veg (From a non-vegetarian' s point of view)

 

Dear Rajarshi,

Do not think that I'll be offended or misunderstand you to be a cruel hearted etc...

In this message, i am giving only what i feel right as per me and how i think about the whole issue myself. so pl. take that in consideration.

But to say that it is immoral or that one does not reach God if one consumes non-vegetarian food, is illogical, incorrect and pure bunkum.In my previous message, i've clarified some points. i put it again below:

Please do not consider my point for Veg/Nonveg with perspective ofSpiritual/Material, Good/Bad, Saatwik/Taamsik etc... My only point inVegterianism is related to Compession against cruelty. Dharma (Non Violence)against Adharama (Killing Innocent creatures).

***

Anyway, my point is, I understand that it is good to eat totally vegetarian food when you engage in sadhana, specially things like havans, or else it conflicts with your system badly.

In my opinion, Saadhana or No Saadhana, if something is not correct will remain Incorrect. killing for filling stomach is if Not right then for me it'll remain *Not right in all conditions*. it is a different matter, if in future i succumb to challanging conditions and start eating meat but even then it'll not justify and make it proper thing.

***Dear Rajarshi, Now i hope you don't get offended by my message. i apologise in advance for my bluntness.

your second Para and some writings in your earlier message gives me impression that you are heavily philosophising. Karama, Desh/kaal etc... does not appeal me. to be very honest.

In my opinon, if one can justify eating popular meat of chicken, etc.. then anything under the Sun is eatable. with that logic, those people who choose to eat Crab, Snakes, insects, cocroaches are perfectly alright. even people who have started eating human flesh are also acceptable and not doing anything wrong as per the 'their' thinking.

To talk about Karma, Conditioning, Culture etc..., and try to make quality judgements by the logic of 'Direct killing' and 'eating meat of already dead' does not go well with me. it is just a philosophy to cover up.

Poeple born in Those cultures have become Vegetarian becuase they hate killing invloved. I gave an example of one such person and there are few more i know. howvever they are very very very rare.

***

The above arguments are incorrect. I know some non-vegetarian people who provide such arguements, but these arguments are nonsensical and childish. Almost Zakir Naik style of arguments.

I agree completely. it is childish, Laughable and cruel jokes. Thats how i also take it when such people talk such nonsense.

***

Lastly, i'll add a philospohical thought. If so much of killing every hourly basis, mostly for the sole purpose of *Craving* goes on in the world, and the prime mover is Human society, then how we hope to have a peacefull world without blood shed and massacare. unfailing law of Karma (Cause & effect) will find many ways to give it back to (in)Human societies.

Om Shaanti Shaanti Shaanti:

Warm Regards,

Utpal

 

 

, rajarshi nandy <rajarshi14@. ..> wrote:>> Dear Utpal,>  > I hope you or others won't get offended by my mails. Please take them in the right vein. I am merely discussing. Now some points:>  >  > But I have often feel that they are themselves are not convinced when they argue. they are 'hollow' arguments. However , I'll honestly say that i have no answers for 'life in a Plant'.> > When I used to eat non-vegetarian food many of my friends who were vegetarian people would give me a similar logic, as you mentioned in your first writing. My point is, as a non-vegetarian I am not claiming that I have any special sensitivity to plants, over animals. No. All I am saying is that, this logic that many vegetarian people provide to convince average non-veg people to quit eating non-veg, does not hold good.>

 > I personally can not look at butchery shops where one finds hanging goats. its pathetic site. People in their excitements stand in queue to see the cutting of throat of a chicken and then take away that as parcel. The flash of so cruelly butchered Chicken or a Goat or a cow or pig, is so tasty for the humans that they just overlook the voice of their inner self. a fish which comes out of water is such a disturbing site. Panting for water (i don't have proper English word to describe the condition of a fish out of water). and then the dead fish thus is so tasty.>  >  > I understand and appreciate you feelings, but I personally do not share them. Call me cruel hearted. >  > When the question of sensitivity comes in, there is no universal standard for such. It is moslty a case of conditioning. What one feels disgusted or pained about may not affect another. Same rule cannot be used to

judge everyone. >  > Some of my non-vegetarian friends were watching discovery channel where they showed that people in some parts of the world eat insects. My friends seemed disgusted. I asked them, "Why?". If you can eat a chicken or a fish, what is wrong if someone eats an insect. Just because one is born in a certain area in a certain culture in a certain set of value, one gets the believe that what one is not accustomed to must be incorrect. I told them if in a future life time they were to be born in that place, they would gladly keep eating insects without the slightest doubt in their mind. We humans are incorrigible product of our own conditions which in my opinion is all right. BUT the problem happens when we think our conditions are the only possible conditioning in the world, and therefore we wonder why don't others share similar ideas. That is incorrect. Nature has created the world diverse, and so it is.

Everything is desh-kaal-patra. A person who is a> vegetarian in this life, if he gets born in a place/culture/ family in a later lifetime which eats non-vegetarian food, he would not even bat an eye lid while eating the same. I know people who faint at the sight of blood, but there are doctors who do multiple operations daily. So my point is, personal sensitivity can be a very good reason for an individual, but it cannot be a universal logic applicable to all.>  > A far better angle of tackling this is the idea of karma. Even then, if someone can make sure he is not directly killing an animal, not selecting a live animal to be killed, but rather buys dead meat/fish/egg, the karma generated can be handled easily. Further, if someone (a non-vegetarian) does not want to deal in the raw flesh, he can buy some cooked non-vegetarian food. The amount of karma that you would get for it is quite

acceptble IMO. It can be easily handled. It is similar to the one you would get for buying some simple daal which has come to the market through the hands of a middle man who has cheated the farmer, or God knows what else. There is karmic repurcussions in all food we eat in this age. It is unavoidable. There are some eggs - broiler eggs - which never hatch into eggs. They are designed to be eaten because they never grow into an animal. Alsmot like dead from birth. What karma does one get for consuming that? God knows.>  > An average non-vegetarian, at least in India, to be precise is actually an omnivorous. His staple diet consists of 80 percent vegetables/pulses etc and 20 percent non-veg. From a scientific point of view, this is a good combination. People who feed on more than 60 percent non-veg food in their staple diet, are prone to serious heath issues at a younger age. But this 80-20 veg/non-veg, is biologically

good.>  >  >  If we don't eat fish then sea will be full of fishes:), Earth will be full of chickens:0, Veg food will become unaffordable if everybody will become vegetarian :Etc...are more often than not, put up such arguments to defend however as i said earlier they are themselves not convinced.> > > The above arguments are incorrect. I know some non-vegetarian people who provide such arguements, but these arguments are nonsensical and childish. Almost Zakir Naik style of arguments.>  > Anyway, my point is, I understand that it is good to eat totally vegetarian food when you engage in sadhana, specially things like havans, or else it conflicts with your system badly. >  > But to say that it is immoral or that one does not reach God if one consumes non-vegetarian food, is illogical, incorrect and pure bunkum.I

know a devotee of Krishna - not just a devotee but one who sees Krishna during his meditations and have experienced samadhi many times over, who is omnivorous. For any average person, not engaging himself/herself in specific sadhanas, I see no harm in having an omnivorous diet with a 80/20 vegetarian/non- vegetarian combination. >  >  > -Regards>  Rajarshi> > > The upsurge (of consciousness) is Bhairava - Shiva Sutra> > --- On Fri, 11/12/09, vedic_pathak vedic_pathak@ ... wrote:> > > vedic_pathak vedic_pathak@ ...> Re: Veg Vs. Non-Veg (From a non-vegetarian' s point of view)> > Friday, 11 December, 2009, 10:29 PM> > >  > > > > Dear Rajarshi,> > As you have said,

Most of these are sure shot arguments from the people who eat Meat/fish. But I have often feel that they are themselves are not convinced when they argue. they are 'hollow' arguments. However , I'll honestly say that i have no answers for 'life in a Plant'.> > The people who argue such as': Most eat meat in the world, Egg is vegetarian, Plant also has life, One will not get required nourishments only with vegetarian food, If we don't eat fish then sea will be full of fishes:), Earth will be full of chickens:0, Veg food will become unaffordable if everybody will become vegetarian :Etc...are more often than not, put up such arguments to defend however as i said earlier they are themselves not convinced.> > Vegeterian people have their own arguments but all these are mere arguments. I personally can not look at butchery shops where one finds hanging goats. its pathetic site. People in their excitements stand in queue to see the

cutting of throat of a chicken and then take away that as parcel. The flash of so cruelly butchered Chicken or a Goat or a cow or pig, is so tasty for the humans that they just overlook the voice of their inner self. a fish which comes out of water is such a disturbing site. Panting for water (i don't have proper English word to describe the condition of a fish out of water). and then the dead fish thus is so tasty.> > The bottom line is that "They cannot overcome" the cravings for the meat, fish and eggs. This is a naked reality.> > Dear Rajarshi, However i try, i am not convinced with arguments in favour of Nonveg food. Only at the cold places and deserts where survival was the main consideration, i can slightly agree but that too during ancient days. not now...Now everywhere Veg food is easily available.> > ***> Few months back, a young girl from Germany came to work in my office for 6 months. once i

casually asked her as to what she eats during lunch. what she said was not at all expected. she said that she is pure vegetarian and eats only Veg food since 3 years now and wants to continue that way whole life. As expected, i was very happy and i further asked the reason. The answer she gave so much happiness. She said that She does not want to kill to eat. Vow! I salute her from my heart.> > Best Regards,> > Utpal> > , rajarshi nandy <rajarshi14@ ...> wrote:> >> > Dear Utpal,> >  > > I slightly disagree with your below mail. Without offence, let me state a few counter point for the sake of a discussion from a non-vegetarian' s point of view. You said:> >  > > ¡§I don¡¦t wish to stuff my stomach with the body parts of killed> >

creature. Would never think of troubling any leaving creature when> > mother-nature has provided enough alternate food. > >  > > Even plants are living. The air we breath is living (organisms). Death is part and parcel of natural law. One cannot avoid it however much one tries. The Abrahamic religions are heavy on non-veg food. The areas where they grew, arid, desert land, you need to have (at least during those days) animal flesh to survive specially considreing irrigation options were so scanty. If you live in the Artic region, you need to have fish oil to survive the cold. The point is, death is a part of life. One does not survive without death. That is how the world has been designed by the grand designer.> >  > > What right I have, to snatch away even a single life in> > the universe for my selfish reasons. I consider that as very

very> > cruel and that is the personal thinking why I am a vegetarian and not> > strictly due to any religious or cultural reason¡¨> >  > > What harm have plants done? Why not the same kind of feeling when it comes to plant life? They too are living beings, just like anything else!> >  > > What you consider selfish maybe a law of nature. > >  > > Please understand I am not advocating non-vegetarianism. But if someone is to do serious sadhana, no doubt vegetarian food is best. Otherwise, I am not sure if it makes in any difference at all. > >  > > -Regards> > Rajarshi> > > > > > > > > > > > The upsurge (of consciousness) is Bhairava - Shiva Sutra> > > > --- On Fri, 11/12/09, vedic_pathak

<vedic_pathak@ ...> wrote:> > > > > > vedic_pathak <vedic_pathak@ ...>> > Re: Veg Vs. Non-Veg> > > > Friday, 11 December, 2009, 7:36 PM> > > > > >  > > > > > > > > > > Namasrte SriRam,> > Long back, i had posted the below message on this list.> > I've put my argument in the message in which i firmly belive.> > Its possible this may change the mind of your friend.> > http://groups. / group/vedic- wisdom/message/ 411> > The exact Argument is given again as under which is the extract from the above message:> > [> > I couldn¡¦t hold back myself and honestly

explained my> > conclusive view point on the whole subject as follow> > ¡§I don¡¦t wish to stuff my stomach with the body parts of killed> > creature. Would never think of troubling any leaving creature when> > mother-nature has provided enough alternate food. Just for the sake> > of filling my stomach or satisfying cravings of my tongue, I won¡¦t be> > responsible for killing innocent birds, animals, fishes directly or> > indirectly. What right I have, to snatch away even a single life in> > the universe for my selfish reasons. I consider that as very very> > cruel and that is the personal thinking why I am a vegetarian and not> > strictly due to any religious or cultural reason¡¨> > ]> > Even if Shri Krishna has not mentioned a direct wording of Non-vegetarian food in

Geeta, it is not right to take that excuse for slottering creatures.> > I ask any body to think for him/her self in the light of what is right and what is not...> > Best Regards,> > Utpal> >  > >  > >  > > > >  > > > > , Astro Seeker <astro.seeker@ ...> wrote:> > >> > > Namaste,> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I am a firm believer of Veg being satwik food and consider non-veg as hurdle to spiritual growth. But, a friend of mine who otherwise is trying to make some spiritual

progress, is a non-vegetatian. In our arguments over non-veg food, he has put a counter argument. He says that if I can find him a single shloka on this in Bhagwat Geeta, he would give up. > > > So, if anybody on this group can help me find the quote, it would be great. He considers Geeta as the absolute reference and believes if Lord Krishna has not spoken about it in Geeta, it is actually not worth discussing whether or not you take non-veg. If anyone finds it, le me know so that 1 guy on this earth can become vegetarian.> > > He also quotes Sai Baba, Jesus and Mohammed Prophet adhering to non-veg. If any of you know the counter argument, please help.> > > Best Regards,Sriram> > > > > > > > > The INTERNET now has a personality. YOURS! See your Homepage. http://in.. com/>

> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The INTERNET now has a personality. YOURS! See your Homepage. http://in.. com/> >> > > > > > > > > > The INTERNET now has a personality. YOURS! See your Homepage. http://in.. com/>

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In this heavy discussion of veg v/s non veg v/s spirituality I know I stand nowhere as I am very bad at debating most of all not very knowledgable, but thought that I will still put little bit of my thoughts too as I am against animal cruelty. This world is full of mystery all questions will mostly end in why. The more deeper we think the more mystery. So lets do what our heart says. What good is that spirituality, that prayers when a simple thing like not killing an animal doesn't strike the mind of such people. I don't care the penance the samadhi one has achieved if that person tells me that he eats meat I at any cost won't care at his preaching no matter how high they are. I know I am not an authority but personally feel that if the non veg eaters argue that

eating plants is wrong then

they are right. In the olden days vegetation used to be abundant hence rishis etc used to eat only fallen fruits and vegetables.

No leafy vegetables

were consumed. In this modern era everything is disrupted. When non veg agree that plants are being tortured then why torture more beings(animals) in the planet. Finally I applaud all the non veg who have converted to veg and all those veg who attempt to convert non veg to veg.I think it is a high kind of puniyam that we are earning by doing so. It is sad to see a whole lot of veg Indians in US converting to non-veg in the name of American culture. Hopefully I haven't hurt anybody's sentiments. Thanks,Sudha

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