Guest guest Posted November 19, 2009 Report Share Posted November 19, 2009 Namaste, Rajarshi said: > The differences are so fundamental that unless one is ready to whitewash > and ignore a LOT of things, there cannot be a reconciliation. There have been saints like Sant Kabir and Shirdi Sai Baba, who have demonstrated how to reconcile. Sai Baba broke the orthodox rules of both Hindusm and Islam. Nobody knew till the end whether he was a Hindu or a Muslim. He lived in a mosque and did namaz, but also maintained a continuous fire with him like Hindu yogis. He did that inside a mosque, which is considered blasphemous as Islam considers fire to be very inauspicious! He gave sublime interpretations of Qoran and also Bhagavad Gita and other Hindu scriptures. He never hesitated to tell a Hindu, "Allah will do good to you" or to tell a Muslim, "Ram will bless you". Hindus and Muslims alike considered him their own and worshipped him. Even today, there is a specific ritual at his tomb in Shirdi, where Hindus stand on one side of the tomb and Muslims on the other and they worship him together, using their own methods. It was heartening to me when I saw it. I saw a ray of hope in the age of religious intolerance and fundamentalism and killing in the name of god. * * * We have many religions and movements, most of them started by people of varying levels of self-realization, who taught guidelines that were quite helpful and relevant to the spiritual progress of people around them at their times. Just as raw grains remain fresh for a long time while cooked grains become stale fast, similarly uninterpreted and intangible essence of the teachings of scriptures remains fresh for a long time while interpreted, tangible and clear guidelines that are ready for digestion by followers become stale (irrelevant/inapplicable) fast. Great teachers effectively cook the raw grains of scriptural essence using the heat of their wisdom and the water of their compassion and serve cooked food ready for consumption by people around them. When people stick to some irrelevant details and miss the essence, it can result in clashes and conflicts. The purpose of religion is to aid in finding god. Unfortunately, no universal thumbrules can be given for finding god. A good religion will not depend on a single text or person and will depend on a string of self-realized souls who re-interpret previous texts based on their realization from time to time. That is certainly true with sanatana dharma. The last paragraph in the following post is quite relevant in this context. /message/1601 Best regards,NarasimhaDo a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAstrologer.org/homamDo Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAstrologer.org/tarpanaSpirituality: Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro.home.comcast.netFree Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAstrologer.orgJyotish writings: JyotishWritingsSri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagannath.org - "vedic_pathak" <vedic_pathak Thursday, November 19, 2009 5:11 PM Re: Poetry of Bulle Shah - Sufi Dear Rajarshi,Thanks for the information on Wajid Ali Shah.***>Islam considers Muhammed to be Insan-e-Kamil, the perfected man. If >that perfected man could not have a directed communion with Allah >ever, and needed a Gibril (Gabriel is Gibril in Arabic) as in >intermediary,Islaam in nutshell is The life of Prophet Muhammad and writings in Koran. That is the 'Patthar Ki Lakir' for all or most of them. so it may not be difficult to *mugup* what is written in one book. so i dont deny that Dr. Naik knows Koran well.***I was told that Allah created beings- first Angel, then Shaytan (FIRE) and finally Man (from Earth element-taken as a best of creation). And then he asked Angel and Shaytan to Salute the Man which was obeyed by Angel but not by Shaytan. Shayatn then on started corrupting minds of Men by influencing them to pray to the statues (images - idolatary) and like wise getting them away from Allah.I may be little wrong in the above understanding.*** > However, one who does Homa need for a deity need not worry >about these in the least. When a deity like Mahaganapati or >Chandika in present, nothing else will dare interfere.I was just joking when i said that we do fire rituals. it was a teasing remark. Fear ki to aisi ki taisi...***>The differences are so fundamental that unless one is ready to >whitewash and ignore a LOT of things, there cannot be a >reconciliation.You see my reply to Krishnendu about Fanatics and Blind *Faith*. when one keep faith in any one book/Man/idea, without understanding or thinking, the earth will have blood shed and reconciliation will only be a day dreaming.Thank God that Sanatana dharma is not the doctrain of a Single person or book or idea but a collective ocean where many rivers meet and merge. Best Regards,Utpal , rajarshi nandy <rajarshi14 wrote:>> Dear Utpal,>  > Even I have heard that there were Sufis  who were devoted to Krishna. Wajid Ali Shah - the nawab of Oudh was one such person. Vimalananda says he was a Kinnara who had incarnated on this plane. Quite possible. He used to go mad for love of Krishna and keep playing teh dance of Gopis for Krishna. Although he used to do his five times Namaz as well. There were other such Sufis too I have heard who were devoted to Krishna.>  > That is what Dr. Zakir highlighted. You say tree is God, men are God, hills are God, Sun, moon and everything is God while We say that everything is of Allah (God).>  > Trust Dr Naik when he is speaking on the Koran. Do not trust him when he speaks on anything else. He does know his Koran well.>  > Look at this logically. Islam considers Muhammed to be Insan-e-Kamil, the perfected man. If that perfected man could not have a directed communion with Allah ever, and needed a Gibril (Gabriel is Gibril in Arabic) as in intermediary, why should any other muslim ever have a direct connection with Allah? Therefore Islam forbids this idea.>  > There is one idea in Islam that *Shayatan* was created from the fire. >  > Actually as far as I know - I maybe wrong - Shaitan was an Angel, fallen by ego. The entities which live by fire as per Islam are called the Jinns. They are another class who mostly dwell in the smoke that comes from fire. They supposedly carry information from earth to the heavens and use fire as a tool for the same.>  > Often muslim tantriks and Islamic occult practitioner use Jinns for different purposes. I don't know what is the exact correspondence to Hindu terminologies for the entity called Jinn, but I know people who do actually use Jinns and work out so called miracles. Maybe they are something like spirits or beings of some astral plane. >  > However, one who does Homa need for a deity need not worry about these in the least. When a deity like Mahaganapati or Chandika in present, nothing else will dare interfere.>  > But the real reason why most muslims have an issue with fire is because in one Hadith it is mentioned prophet Muhammed disliked fire because it reminded him of Hellfire. Fire to them is a symbol of the final times where the sinners and the kufrs will be thrown by Allah into a huge fire.>  > sadly in the view of the people like Dr. Zakir Naik, they run 180 degree apart in different directions or actually they try to make it such that they never meet.>  > Hmm, I would beg to disagree. In my reading of Islam, Zakir Naik is correct. As I said he only lies and use half truths when it comes to other religion. For Islam he quotes correctly and wholesomely. The difference between Islam and non Islamic ideology - specially Hindus/Buddism/Jainism etc is irreconcileable. An explanation for this maybe digressing and long.>  > But generally, if I were born in a muslim family, and were made to read teh Koran and Hadiths day in and day out and trust the Koran as the perfected word of God and Muhammed as the perfected man, one whose whole life was teh Koran in motion, I would consider Zakir Naik to be 100 % correct. The differences are so fundamental that unless one is ready to whitewash and ignore a LOT of things, there cannot be a reconciliation.>  > Remember, Aurnagzeb started memorizing the koran for 9 years. At the end of the nine years he started his temple demolishion campaign.> > > It is no wonder that more than 90 percent of muslim youth, even those highly educated consider Zakir Naik to be a gift of Allah to the Ummah and the greatest 'scholar' of Islam and 'comparitive religions' alive on earth. I am speaking from personal interaction. >  > At some point I used to get very angry with muslims. Now I don't. I find them to be a victim more than any one, and a victim who is not even aware of the fact that he is a victim! A victim not of USA or Zionists or Hindus or anyone. A victim of the idea called Islam.>  > The above statement may seem controversial, but it is not a casual remark.>  > -Regards>  Rajarshi> >  >  > > > > >  > > The upsurge (of consciousness) is Bhairava - Shiva Sutra> > --- On Thu, 19/11/09, vedic_pathak <vedic_pathak wrote:> > > vedic_pathak <vedic_pathak> Re: Poetry of Bulle Shah - Sufi> > Thursday, 19 November, 2009, 7:33 PM> > >  > > > > Dear Rajarshi,> > Thank you for these informations on Sufis. But one information still needed about their Krishna Bhakti. were there any saints among Sufis who actually sang Bhajans in praise of Krishna?> > ***> >Communion with God is an idea impossible is the Islam of Muhammed. >The creator is always seperate from the creation.Period. Anything >else is Kufr> > That is a right statement.> That is what Dr. Zakir highlighted. You say tree is God, men are God, hills are God, Sun, moon and everything is God while We say that everything is of Allah (God).> > ***> a different Note:> > one intresting point - There is one idea in Islam that *Shayatan* was created from the fire.> > We everyday do Fire worship ritual!> > Incidently one of my very good friends, who is Muslim is coming to my home with Family and will stay with me for a week. he'll see me doing Homam everyday. He and his wife knows about it. infact i've done many Chadi Paath recitations at his home and even my Maha Lakshmi vratam if it happened to be a friday. Whenever i visit their home, his wife sees to it that there is no Non veg food brought in his home.> He'll offer his Namaz ritual at my home. so Homam and Namaz will go parallelly. This parallel of different rituals has a meeting point in both of our hearts. sadly in the view of the people like Dr. Zakir Naik, they run 180 degree apart in different directions or actually they try to make it such that they never meet.> > Best Regards,> > Utpal> > , rajarshi nandy <rajarshi14@ ...> wrote:> >> > > > Dear Utpal,> >  > > If you are asking specifically about Bulle Shah, he was a Sufi saint of the 15th Century in area of modern Pakisthan. As you can well understand from his poetry, his realization was quite different from traditional Islamic learning. Bulle Shah was quite disliked by muslims of his time. He was a pacifist and a true saint.> >  > > Most people consider Sufism or Sufiana to be a branch of Islam. My personal view is different. In most of the poetry I have read of famous Sufi sants like JalÄl ad-DÄ«n Muḥammad BalkhÄ« Rumi convince me that their personal realization was quite different from Islamic doctrins. As such the roots of the Sufi philosphy like in pre Islamic Persian and India. The mystics of these areas, specially Persia, after it was over run by Islam, in order to protect their philosophy garbed it with Islamic terminologies and names. Otherwise they would have faced sure shot slaughter. That was a means of self preservation which in turn, over years, helped a lot of muslims in treading a more sublime path - IMHO - than that which comes from the Ahadiths and the Koran proper.> >  > > For example Rumi talks a about something similar to reincarnation in some of his poems while the following one does talk about communion with God:> >  > > I searched for God among the Christians and on the Cross and therein I found Him not.> > I went into the ancient temples of idolatry; no trace of Him was there.> > I entered the mountain cave of Hira and then went as far as Qandhar but God I found not.> > With set purpose I fared to the summit of Mount Caucasus and found there only 'anqa's habitation.> > Then I directed my search to the Kaaba, the resort of old and young; God was not there even.> > Turning to philosophy I inquired about him from ibn Sina but found Him not within his range.> > I fared then to the scene of the Prophet's experience of a great divine manifestation only a "two bow-lengths' distance from him" but God was not there even in that exalted court.> > Finally, I looked into my own heart and there I saw Him; He was nowhere else.> >  > > Communion with God is an idea impossible is the Islam of Muhammed. The creator is always seperate from the creation.Period. Anything else is Kufr. Though in later verses Rumi did eulogize Muhammed and the Koran, my interpretation is that all that was an attempt at disguising Kufr with an Islamic garb. > >  > >  > > The person who changed the life of Rumi was also another Sufi called Shams-e-Tabrizi. Vimalananda mentions a popular legend which says Shams was so powerful that he couild raise the dead. One day the mullas caught up with him and asked him to demonstrate. Shams went to a dead body and said, "In the name of Allah, wake up!". But nothing happened. He tried a few times and yet nothing happened. Finally he said, "In my name, wake up!" and the dead body woke up. Immediate the Mulla caught him for doing Kufr - ideally you cannot invoke anyone for help other than Allah as per true Islam - and executed him.> >  > > Same was with case with Mansur-al-Hallaj who was executed for proclaiming Anal Haq which literally means I am the Truth. This statement is also considered Kufr as per traditional Islam. > >  > > Auliya Nizamuddin was another great Sufi who introduced Qwaalis in India. It is said he had advised the mother of Shivaji to worship lord Shiva for a son before Shivaji was born.> >  > > Generally, except for the famous Moinunddin Chisti of Ajmer, I have deep respect for most Sufis saint. > >  > > Though Sufis always showed a different more subjective interpretation of Koran, however the genuine Muslim scholars were never fooled. Most of them considered Sufis to be non Islamic. Even today. And I do not blame them. An honest reading of the Koran and the hadiths with tell you in no uncertain terms that the philosophy of Vedanta or any sort of God communion is unacceptable to Islam. I won't digress into my views of what ails Islam, but Sufis can be safely called unIslamic if a true, traditional and authentic version of Islam is to be followed.> >  > > BTW, Sufi ideas are quite famous in modern day cities where we find the fashionably spiritual higher middle class. But like most things under the sun, they hardly know anything about anything.> >  > > -Regards> >  Rajarshi> >  > >  > >  > >  > >  > >  > > > >  > > > > The upsurge (of consciousness) is Bhairava - Shiva Sutra> > > > --- On Thu, 19/11/09, vedic_pathak <vedic_pathak@ ...> wrote:> > > > > > vedic_pathak <vedic_pathak@ ...>> > Re: Poetry of Bulle Shah - Sufi> > > > Thursday, 19 November, 2009, 5:21 PM> > > > > >  > > > > > > > > Dear Rajarshi,> > > > >Some years back this specific poem of Baba Bulle Shah - a sufi >mystic> > > > can you provid me knowledge of this Sufi sect. is it one of the branch from Islam?. I've come across some articles in the past which indicates that some of the Sufi saints were even Krishna Bhakta and have sang songs for praising Krishna in their sufi style.> > > > Warm Regards,> > > > Utpal > > > > , rajarshi nandy <rajarshi14@ ...> wrote:> > >> > > Hi Everyone,> > > Ã, > > > Some years back this specific poem of Baba Bulle Shah - a sufi mystic - was made into a very popular song in India. I just thought of sharing it again with the members here. > > > Ã, > > > The following poem of his is a classic. Purely self realized.> > > First the translation and then the original for anyone who understands punjabi:> > > Ã, > > > Not a believer inside the mosque, am I> > > Nor a pagan disciple of false rites> > > Not the pure amongst the impure> > > Neither Moses, nor the Pharoh> > > > > > Bulleh! to me, I am not known> > > > > > Not in the holy Vedas, am I> > > Nor in opium, neither in wine> > > Not in the drunkard`s craze> > > Niether awake, nor in a sleeping daze> > > > > > Bulleh! to me, I am not known> > > > > > In happiness nor in sorrow, am I> > > Neither clean, nor a filthy mire> > > Not from water, nor from earth> > > Neither fire, nor from air, is my birth> > > > > > Bulleh! to me, I am not known> > > > > > Not an Arab, nor Lahori> > > Neither Hindi, nor Nagauri> > > Hindu, Turk (Muslim), nor Peshawari> > > Nor do I live in Nadaun> > > > > > Bulleh! to me, I am not known> > > > > > Secrets of religion, I have not known> > > From Adam and Eve, I am not born> > > I am not the name I assume> > > Not in stillness, nor on the move> > > > > > Bulleh! to me, I am not known> > > > > > I am the first, I am the last> > > None other, have I ever known> > > I am the wisest of them all> > > Bulleh! do I stand alone?> > > > > > Bulleh! to me, I am not known > > > > > > Orginal:> > > Ã, > > > Na maen momin vich maseet aan> > > Na maen vich kufar diyan reet aan> > > Na maen paakaan vich paleet aan> > > Na maen moosa na pharaun.> > > > > > Bulleh! ki jaana maen kaun> > > Ã, > > > Na maen andar ved kitaab aan,> > > Na vich bhangaan na sharaab aan> > > Na vich rindaan masat kharaab aan> > > Na vich jaagan na vich saun.> > > > > > Bulleh! ki jaana maen kaun.> > > > > > Na vich shaadi na ghamnaaki> > > Na maen vich paleeti paaki> > > Na maen aabi na maen khaki> > > Na maen aatish na maen paun> > > > > > Bulleh!, ki jaana maen kaun> > > > > > Na maen arabi na lahori> > > Na maen hindi shehar nagauri> > > Na hindu na turak peshawri> > > Na maen rehnda vich nadaun> > > > > > Bulla, ki jaana maen kaun> > > > > > Na maen bheth mazhab da paaya> > > Ne maen aadam havva jaaya> > > Na maen apna naam dharaaya> > > Na vich baitthan na vich bhaun> > > > > > Bulleh , ki jaana maen kaun> > > > > > Avval aakhir aap nu jaana> > > Na koi dooja hor pehchaana> > > Maethon hor na koi siyaana> > > Bulla! ooh khadda hai kaun> > > > > > Bulla, ki jaana maen kaun...> > > Ã, > > > Ã, > > > Ã, > > > Ã, > > > Ã, > > > -Regards> > > Ã, Rajarshi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 20, 2009 Report Share Posted November 20, 2009 Dear Narasimha, I read the other mail. Its very true and correct. It is also true that Sai Baba did a lot for unifying the communities. However the current truth is that the effect of Sai Baba on larger muslim psyche is very less, to be honest almost negligible. In history there have been people who have tried to modify, change, reinterpret Islam based on desh-kaal-patra but it only resulted in more violence. The Ahamadiyas get persecuted ruthlessly even today just as the Bahai followers. Again the reason is because Muhammed had told muslims that nothing can change from what he has been told, he is the last prophet and Koran is the direct and final word of God. Nothing more after this. Plus da'wa or inviting non muslims to take up Islam is their holy duty which will earn them a place in heaven. They truely and blindly believe in these two. No amount of logic, reason etc will work here. Hence Islam cannot change. It never has, it never will. It can only die. -Regards Rajarshi The upsurge (of consciousness) is Bhairava - Shiva Sutra--- On Fri, 20/11/09, Narasimha P.V.R. Rao <pvr wrote: Narasimha P.V.R. Rao <pvr Clashes between religions Date: Friday, 20 November, 2009, 9:11 AM Namaste, Rajarshi said: > The differences are so fundamental that unless one is ready to whitewash > and ignore a LOT of things, there cannot be a reconciliation. There have been saints like Sant Kabir and Shirdi Sai Baba, who have demonstrated how to reconcile. Sai Baba broke the orthodox rules of both Hindusm and Islam. Nobody knew till the end whether he was a Hindu or a Muslim. He lived in a mosque and did namaz, but also maintained a continuous fire with him like Hindu yogis. He did that inside a mosque, which is considered blasphemous as Islam considers fire to be very inauspicious! He gave sublime interpretations of Qoran and also Bhagavad Gita and other Hindu scriptures. He never hesitated to tell a Hindu, "Allah will do good to you" or to tell a Muslim, "Ram will bless you". Hindus and Muslims alike considered him their own and worshipped him. Even today, there is a specific ritual at his tomb in Shirdi, where Hindus stand on one side of the tomb and Muslims on the other and they worship him together, using their own methods. It was heartening to me when I saw it. I saw a ray of hope in the age of religious intolerance and fundamentalism and killing in the name of god. * * * We have many religions and movements, most of them started by people of varying levels of self-realization, who taught guidelines that were quite helpful and relevant to the spiritual progress of people around them at their times. Just as raw grains remain fresh for a long time while cooked grains become stale fast, similarly uninterpreted and intangible essence of the teachings of scriptures remains fresh for a long time while interpreted, tangible and clear guidelines that are ready for digestion by followers become stale (irrelevant/ inapplicable) fast. Great teachers effectively cook the raw grains of scriptural essence using the heat of their wisdom and the water of their compassion and serve cooked food ready for consumption by people around them. When people stick to some irrelevant details and miss the essence, it can result in clashes and conflicts. The purpose of religion is to aid in finding god. Unfortunately, no universal thumbrules can be given for finding god. A good religion will not depend on a single text or person and will depend on a string of self-realized souls who re-interpret previous texts based on their realization from time to time. That is certainly true with sanatana dharma. The last paragraph in the following post is quite relevant in this context. http://groups. / group/vedic- wisdom/message/ 1601 Best regards,Narasimha------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- ---------Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ homamDo Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ tarpanaSpirituality: http://groups. / group/vedic- wisdomFree Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro. home.comcast. netFree Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAst rologer.orgJyotish writings: http://groups. / group/JyotishWri tingsSri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagan nath.org------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- - "vedic_pathak" <vedic_pathak@ > <> Thursday, November 19, 2009 5:11 PM Re: Poetry of Bulle Shah - Sufi Dear Rajarshi,Thanks for the information on Wajid Ali Shah.***>Islam considers Muhammed to be Insan-e-Kamil, the perfected man. If >that perfected man could not have a directed communion with Allah >ever, and needed a Gibril (Gabriel is Gibril in Arabic) as in >intermediary,Islaam in nutshell is The life of Prophet Muhammad and writings in Koran. That is the 'Patthar Ki Lakir' for all or most of them. so it may not be difficult to *mugup* what is written in one book. so i dont deny that Dr. Naik knows Koran well.***I was told that Allah created beings- first Angel, then Shaytan (FIRE) and finally Man (from Earth element-taken as a best of creation). And then he asked Angel and Shaytan to Salute the Man which was obeyed by Angel but not by Shaytan. Shayatn then on started corrupting minds of Men by influencing them to pray to the statues (images - idolatary) and like wise getting them away from Allah.I may be little wrong in the above understanding.*** > However, one who does Homa need for a deity need not worry >about these in the least. When a deity like Mahaganapati or >Chandika in present, nothing else will dare interfere.I was just joking when i said that we do fire rituals. it was a teasing remark. Fear ki to aisi ki taisi...***>The differences are so fundamental that unless one is ready to >whitewash and ignore a LOT of things, there cannot be a >reconciliation.You see my reply to Krishnendu about Fanatics and Blind *Faith*. when one keep faith in any one book/Man/idea, without understanding or thinking, the earth will have blood shed and reconciliation will only be a day dreaming.Thank God that Sanatana dharma is not the doctrain of a Single person or book or idea but a collective ocean where many rivers meet and merge. Best Regards,Utpal, rajarshi nandy <rajarshi14@. ..> wrote:>> Dear Utpal,>  > Even I have heard that there were Sufis  who were devoted to Krishna. Wajid Ali Shah - the nawab of Oudh was one such person. Vimalananda says he was a Kinnara who had incarnated on this plane. Quite possible. He used to go mad for love of Krishna and keep playing teh dance of Gopis for Krishna. Although he used to do his five times Namaz as well. There were other such Sufis too I have heard who were devoted to Krishna.>  > That is what Dr. Zakir highlighted. You say tree is God, men are God, hills are God, Sun, moon and everything is God while We say that everything is of Allah (God).>  > Trust Dr Naik when he is speaking on the Koran. Do not trust him when he speaks on anything else. He does know his Koran well.>  > Look at this logically. Islam considers Muhammed to be Insan-e-Kamil, the perfected man. If that perfected man could not have a directed communion with Allah ever, and needed a Gibril (Gabriel is Gibril in Arabic) as in intermediary, why should any other muslim ever have a direct connection with Allah? Therefore Islam forbids this idea.>  > There is one idea in Islam that *Shayatan* was created from the fire. >  > Actually as far as I know - I maybe wrong - Shaitan was an Angel, fallen by ego. The entities which live by fire as per Islam are called the Jinns. They are another class who mostly dwell in the smoke that comes from fire. They supposedly carry information from earth to the heavens and use fire as a tool for the same.>  > Often muslim tantriks and Islamic occult practitioner use Jinns for different purposes. I don't know what is the exact correspondence to Hindu terminologies for the entity called Jinn, but I know people who do actually use Jinns and work out so called miracles. Maybe they are something like spirits or beings of some astral plane. >  > However, one who does Homa need for a deity need not worry about these in the least. When a deity like Mahaganapati or Chandika in present, nothing else will dare interfere.>  > But the real reason why most muslims have an issue with fire is because in one Hadith it is mentioned prophet Muhammed disliked fire because it reminded him of Hellfire. Fire to them is a symbol of the final times where the sinners and the kufrs will be thrown by Allah into a huge fire.>  > sadly in the view of the people like Dr. Zakir Naik, they run 180 degree apart in different directions or actually they try to make it such that they never meet.>  > Hmm, I would beg to disagree. In my reading of Islam, Zakir Naik is correct. As I said he only lies and use half truths when it comes to other religion. For Islam he quotes correctly and wholesomely. The difference between Islam and non Islamic ideology - specially Hindus/Buddism/ Jainism etc is irreconcileable. An explanation for this maybe digressing and long.>  > But generally, if I were born in a muslim family, and were made to read teh Koran and Hadiths day in and day out and trust the Koran as the perfected word of God and Muhammed as the perfected man, one whose whole life was teh Koran in motion, I would consider Zakir Naik to be 100 % correct. The differences are so fundamental that unless one is ready to whitewash and ignore a LOT of things, there cannot be a reconciliation.>  > Remember, Aurnagzeb started memorizing the koran for 9 years. At the end of the nine years he started his temple demolishion campaign.> > > It is no wonder that more than 90 percent of muslim youth, even those highly educated consider Zakir Naik to be a gift of Allah to the Ummah and the greatest 'scholar' of Islam and 'comparitive religions' alive on earth. I am speaking from personal interaction. >  > At some point I used to get very angry with muslims. Now I don't. I find them to be a victim more than any one, and a victim who is not even aware of the fact that he is a victim! A victim not of USA or Zionists or Hindus or anyone. A victim of the idea called Islam.>  > The above statement may seem controversial, but it is not a casual remark.>  > -Regards>  Rajarshi> >  >  > > > > >  > > The upsurge (of consciousness) is Bhairava - Shiva Sutra> > --- On Thu, 19/11/09, vedic_pathak <vedic_pathak@ ...> wrote:> > > vedic_pathak <vedic_pathak@ ...>> Re: Poetry of Bulle Shah - Sufi> > Thursday, 19 November, 2009, 7:33 PM> > >  > > > > Dear Rajarshi,> > Thank you for these informations on Sufis. But one information still needed about their Krishna Bhakti. were there any saints among Sufis who actually sang Bhajans in praise of Krishna?> > ***> >Communion with God is an idea impossible is the Islam of Muhammed. >The creator is always seperate from the creation.Period. Anything >else is Kufr> > That is a right statement.> That is what Dr. Zakir highlighted. You say tree is God, men are God, hills are God, Sun, moon and everything is God while We say that everything is of Allah (God).> > ***> a different Note:> > one intresting point - There is one idea in Islam that *Shayatan* was created from the fire.> > We everyday do Fire worship ritual!> > Incidently one of my very good friends, who is Muslim is coming to my home with Family and will stay with me for a week. he'll see me doing Homam everyday. He and his wife knows about it. infact i've done many Chadi Paath recitations at his home and even my Maha Lakshmi vratam if it happened to be a friday. Whenever i visit their home, his wife sees to it that there is no Non veg food brought in his home.> He'll offer his Namaz ritual at my home. so Homam and Namaz will go parallelly. This parallel of different rituals has a meeting point in both of our hearts. sadly in the view of the people like Dr. Zakir Naik, they run 180 degree apart in different directions or actually they try to make it such that they never meet.> > Best Regards,> > Utpal> > , rajarshi nandy <rajarshi14@ ...> wrote:> >> > > > Dear Utpal,> >  > > If you are asking specifically about Bulle Shah, he was a Sufi saint of the 15th Century in area of modern Pakisthan. As you can well understand from his poetry, his realization was quite different from traditional Islamic learning. Bulle Shah was quite disliked by muslims of his time. He was a pacifist and a true saint.> >  > > Most people consider Sufism or Sufiana to be a branch of Islam. My personal view is different. In most of the poetry I have read of famous Sufi sants like JalÄ�l ad-DÄ«n Muḥammad BalkhÄ« Rumi convince me that their personal realization was quite different from Islamic doctrins. As such the roots of the Sufi philosphy like in pre Islamic Persian and India. The mystics of these areas, specially Persia, after it was over run by Islam, in order to protect their philosophy garbed it with Islamic terminologies and names. Otherwise they would have faced sure shot slaughter. That was a means of self preservation which in turn, over years, helped a lot of muslims in treading a more sublime path - IMHO - than that which comes from the Ahadiths and the Koran proper.> >  > > For example Rumi talks a about something similar to reincarnation in some of his poems while the following one does talk about communion with God:> >  > > I searched for God among the Christians and on the Cross and therein I found Him not.> > I went into the ancient temples of idolatry; no trace of Him was there.> > I entered the mountain cave of Hira and then went as far as Qandhar but God I found not.> > With set purpose I fared to the summit of Mount Caucasus and found there only 'anqa's habitation.> > Then I directed my search to the Kaaba, the resort of old and young; God was not there even.> > Turning to philosophy I inquired about him from ibn Sina but found Him not within his range.> > I fared then to the scene of the Prophet's experience of a great divine manifestation only a "two bow-lengths' distance from him" but God was not there even in that exalted court.> > Finally, I looked into my own heart and there I saw Him; He was nowhere else.> >  > > Communion with God is an idea impossible is the Islam of Muhammed. The creator is always seperate from the creation.Period. Anything else is Kufr. Though in later verses Rumi did eulogize Muhammed and the Koran, my interpretation is that all that was an attempt at disguising Kufr with an Islamic garb. > >  > >  > > The person who changed the life of Rumi was also another Sufi called Shams-e-Tabrizi. Vimalananda mentions a popular legend which says Shams was so powerful that he couild raise the dead. One day the mullas caught up with him and asked him to demonstrate. Shams went to a dead body and said, "In the name of Allah, wake up!". But nothing happened. He tried a few times and yet nothing happened. Finally he said, "In my name, wake up!" and the dead body woke up. Immediate the Mulla caught him for doing Kufr - ideally you cannot invoke anyone for help other than Allah as per true Islam - and executed him.> >  > > Same was with case with Mansur-al-Hallaj who was executed for proclaiming Anal Haq which literally means I am the Truth. This statement is also considered Kufr as per traditional Islam. > >  > > Auliya Nizamuddin was another great Sufi who introduced Qwaalis in India. It is said he had advised the mother of Shivaji to worship lord Shiva for a son before Shivaji was born.> >  > > Generally, except for the famous Moinunddin Chisti of Ajmer, I have deep respect for most Sufis saint. > >  > > Though Sufis always showed a different more subjective interpretation of Koran, however the genuine Muslim scholars were never fooled. Most of them considered Sufis to be non Islamic. Even today. And I do not blame them. An honest reading of the Koran and the hadiths with tell you in no uncertain terms that the philosophy of Vedanta or any sort of God communion is unacceptable to Islam. I won't digress into my views of what ails Islam, but Sufis can be safely called unIslamic if a true, traditional and authentic version of Islam is to be followed.> >  > > BTW, Sufi ideas are quite famous in modern day cities where we find the fashionably spiritual higher middle class. But like most things under the sun, they hardly know anything about anything.> >  > > -Regards> >  Rajarshi> >  > >  > >  > >  > >  > >  > > > >  > > > > The upsurge (of consciousness) is Bhairava - Shiva Sutra> > > > --- On Thu, 19/11/09, vedic_pathak <vedic_pathak@ ...> wrote:> > > > > > vedic_pathak <vedic_pathak@ ...>> > Re: Poetry of Bulle Shah - Sufi> > > > Thursday, 19 November, 2009, 5:21 PM> > > > > >  > > > > > > > > Dear Rajarshi,> > > > >Some years back this specific poem of Baba Bulle Shah - a sufi >mystic> > > > can you provid me knowledge of this Sufi sect. is it one of the branch from Islam?. I've come across some articles in the past which indicates that some of the Sufi saints were even Krishna Bhakta and have sang songs for praising Krishna in their sufi style.> > > > Warm Regards,> > > > Utpal > > > > , rajarshi nandy <rajarshi14@ ...> wrote:> > >> > > Hi Everyone,> > > Ã, > > > Some years back this specific poem of Baba Bulle Shah - a sufi mystic - was made into a very popular song in India. I just thought of sharing it again with the members here. > > > Ã, > > > The following poem of his is a classic. Purely self realized.> > > First the translation and then the original for anyone who understands punjabi:> > > Ã, > > > Not a believer inside the mosque, am I> > > Nor a pagan disciple of false rites> > > Not the pure amongst the impure> > > Neither Moses, nor the Pharoh> > > > > > Bulleh! to me, I am not known> > > > > > Not in the holy Vedas, am I> > > Nor in opium, neither in wine> > > Not in the drunkard`s craze> > > Niether awake, nor in a sleeping daze> > > > > > Bulleh! to me, I am not known> > > > > > In happiness nor in sorrow, am I> > > Neither clean, nor a filthy mire> > > Not from water, nor from earth> > > Neither fire, nor from air, is my birth> > > > > > Bulleh! to me, I am not known> > > > > > Not an Arab, nor Lahori> > > Neither Hindi, nor Nagauri> > > Hindu, Turk (Muslim), nor Peshawari> > > Nor do I live in Nadaun> > > > > > Bulleh! to me, I am not known> > > > > > Secrets of religion, I have not known> > > From Adam and Eve, I am not born> > > I am not the name I assume> > > Not in stillness, nor on the move> > > > > > Bulleh! to me, I am not known> > > > > > I am the first, I am the last> > > None other, have I ever known> > > I am the wisest of them all> > > Bulleh! do I stand alone?> > > > > > Bulleh! to me, I am not known > > > > > > Orginal:> > > Ã, > > > Na maen momin vich maseet aan> > > Na maen vich kufar diyan reet aan> > > Na maen paakaan vich paleet aan> > > Na maen moosa na pharaun.> > > > > > Bulleh! ki jaana maen kaun> > > Ã, > > > Na maen andar ved kitaab aan,> > > Na vich bhangaan na sharaab aan> > > Na vich rindaan masat kharaab aan> > > Na vich jaagan na vich saun.> > > > > > Bulleh! ki jaana maen kaun.> > > > > > Na vich shaadi na ghamnaaki> > > Na maen vich paleeti paaki> > > Na maen aabi na maen khaki> > > Na maen aatish na maen paun> > > > > > Bulleh!, ki jaana maen kaun> > > > > > Na maen arabi na lahori> > > Na maen hindi shehar nagauri> > > Na hindu na turak peshawri> > > Na maen rehnda vich nadaun> > > > > > Bulla, ki jaana maen kaun> > > > > > Na maen bheth mazhab da paaya> > > Ne maen aadam havva jaaya> > > Na maen apna naam dharaaya> > > Na vich baitthan na vich bhaun> > > > > > Bulleh , ki jaana maen kaun> > > > > > Avval aakhir aap nu jaana> > > Na koi dooja hor pehchaana> > > Maethon hor na koi siyaana> > > Bulla! ooh khadda hai kaun> > > > > > Bulla, ki jaana maen kaun...> > > Ã, > > > Ã, > > > Ã, > > > Ã, > > > Ã, > > > -Regards> > > Ã, Rajarshi The INTERNET now has a personality. 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Guest guest Posted November 20, 2009 Report Share Posted November 20, 2009 Dear Narasimha, I was thinking in the same line as Rajarshi has expressed in the below message about Sain Baba. In the morning when i saw your message, first thing came to my mind is that How much influence Sain baba or Kabir has on Muslims today? Immediately Shirdi temple and long queue came to my imagination and can we find any Muslims there? The fact remains that be it Sain Baba or Kabir or another saint, unifying effect is only on Hindus and their followers today are also only those. >>>It was heartening to me when I saw it. I saw a ray of hope<<< Honestly, I am not very excited with this. The Fundamental reasons which Rajarshi has mentioned are true. and those are the very reasons which prevents even the broad minded Islamic individual to succumb finally. In my opinion, it requires a radical force from within the followers of Islam itself which can change their outlook for good. Best Regards, Utpal , rajarshi nandy <rajarshi14 wrote: > > Dear Narasimha, >  >  > I read the other mail. Its very true and correct. >  > It is also true that Sai Baba did a lot for unifying the communities. However the current truth is that the effect of Sai Baba on larger muslim psyche is very less, to be honest almost negligible. >  > In history there have been people who have tried to modify, change, reinterpret Islam based on desh-kaal-patra but it only resulted in more violence. The Ahamadiyas get persecuted ruthlessly even today just as the Bahai followers. >  > Again the reason is because Muhammed had told muslims that nothing can change from what he has been told, he is the last prophet and Koran is the direct and final word of God. Nothing more after this. Plus da'wa or inviting non muslims to take up Islam is their holy duty which will earn them a place in heaven. They truely and blindly believe in these two. No amount of logic, reason etc will work here. >  > Hence Islam cannot change. It never has, it never will. It can only die. >  > -Regards >  Rajarshi >  >  > > >  > > The upsurge (of consciousness) is Bhairava - Shiva Sutra > > --- On Fri, 20/11/09, Narasimha P.V.R. Rao <pvr wrote: > > > Narasimha P.V.R. Rao <pvr > Clashes between religions > > Friday, 20 November, 2009, 9:11 AM > > >  > > > > > Namaste, >  > Rajarshi said: >  > > The differences are so fundamental that unless one is ready to whitewash > > and ignore a LOT of things, there cannot be a reconciliation. >  > There have been saints like Sant Kabir and Shirdi Sai Baba, who have demonstrated how to reconcile. >  > Sai Baba broke the orthodox rules of both Hindusm and Islam. Nobody knew till the end whether he was a Hindu or a Muslim. He lived in a mosque and did namaz, but also maintained a continuous fire with him like Hindu yogis. He did that inside a mosque, which is considered blasphemous as Islam considers fire to be very inauspicious! He gave sublime interpretations of Qoran and also Bhagavad Gita and other Hindu scriptures. He never hesitated to tell a Hindu, " Allah will do good to you " or to tell a Muslim, " Ram will bless you " . Hindus and Muslims alike considered him their own and worshipped him. Even today, there is a specific ritual at his tomb in Shirdi, where Hindus stand on one side of the tomb and Muslims on the other and they worship him together, using their own methods. >  > It was heartening to me when I saw it. I saw a ray of hope in the age of religious intolerance and fundamentalism and killing in the name of god. >  > *       *       * >  > > We have many religions and movements, most of them started by people of varying levels of self-realization, who taught guidelines that were quite helpful and relevant to the spiritual progress of people around them at their times. Just as raw grains remain fresh for a long time while cooked grains become stale fast, similarly uninterpreted and intangible essence of the teachings of scriptures remains fresh for a long time while interpreted, tangible and clear guidelines that are ready for digestion by followers become stale (irrelevant/ inapplicable) fast. Great teachers effectively cook the raw grains of scriptural essence using the heat of their wisdom and the water of their compassion and serve cooked food ready for consumption by people around them. >  > When people stick to some irrelevant details and miss the essence, it can result in clashes and conflicts. The purpose of religion is to aid in finding god. Unfortunately, no universal thumbrules can be given for finding god. A good religion will not depend on a single text or person and will depend on a string of self-realized souls who re-interpret previous texts based on their realization from time to time. That is certainly true with sanatana dharma. >  The last paragraph in the following post is quite relevant in this context. >  > http://groups. / group/vedic- wisdom/message/ 1601 >  > Best regards, > Narasimha > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- > Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ homam > Do Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ tarpana > Spirituality: http://groups. / group/vedic- wisdom > Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro. home.comcast. net > Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAst rologer.org > Jyotish writings: http://groups. / group/JyotishWri tings > Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagan nath.org > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- >  > > - > " vedic_pathak " <vedic_pathak@ > > <> > Thursday, November 19, 2009 5:11 PM > Re: Poetry of Bulle Shah - Sufi > > Dear Rajarshi, > > Thanks for the information on Wajid Ali Shah. > > *** > >Islam considers Muhammed to be Insan-e-Kamil, the perfected man. If >that perfected man could not have a directed communion with Allah >ever, and needed a Gibril (Gabriel is Gibril in Arabic) as in >intermediary, > > Islaam in nutshell is The life of Prophet Muhammad and writings in Koran. That is the 'Patthar Ki Lakir' for all or most of them. so it may not be difficult to *mugup* what is written in one book. so i dont deny that Dr. Naik knows Koran well. > *** > I was told that Allah created beings- first Angel, then Shaytan (FIRE) and finally Man (from Earth element-taken as a best of creation). And then he asked Angel and Shaytan to Salute the Man which was obeyed by Angel but not by Shaytan. Shayatn then on started corrupting minds of Men by influencing them to pray to the statues (images - idolatary) and like wise getting them away from Allah. > > I may be little wrong in the above understanding. > > *** >  > However, one who does Homa need for a deity need not worry >about these in the least. When a deity like Mahaganapati or >Chandika in present, nothing else will dare interfere. > > I was just joking when i said that we do fire rituals. it was a teasing remark. Fear ki to aisi ki taisi... > > *** > >The differences are so fundamental that unless one is ready to >whitewash and ignore a LOT of things, there cannot be a >reconciliation. > > You see my reply to Krishnendu about Fanatics and Blind *Faith*. when one keep faith in any one book/Man/idea, without understanding or thinking, the earth will have blood shed and reconciliation will only be a day dreaming. > > Thank God that Sanatana dharma is not the doctrain of a Single person or book or idea but a collective ocean where many rivers meet and merge. >  > Best Regards, > > Utpal > > > > , rajarshi nandy <rajarshi14@ ..> wrote: > > > > Dear Utpal, > >  > > Even I have heard that there were Sufis  who were devoted to Krishna. Wajid Ali Shah - the nawab of Oudh was one such person. Vimalananda says he was a Kinnara who had incarnated on this plane. Quite possible. He used to go mad for love of Krishna and keep playing teh dance of Gopis for Krishna. Although he used to do his five times Namaz as well. There were other such Sufis too I have heard who were devoted to Krishna. > >  > > That is what Dr. Zakir highlighted. You say tree is God, men are God, hills are God, Sun, moon and everything is God while We say that everything is of Allah (God). > >  > > Trust Dr Naik when he is speaking on the Koran. Do not trust him when he speaks on anything else. He does know his Koran well. > >  > > Look at this logically. Islam considers Muhammed to be Insan-e-Kamil, the perfected man. If that perfected man could not have a directed communion with Allah ever, and needed a Gibril (Gabriel is Gibril in Arabic) as in intermediary, why should any other muslim ever have a direct connection with Allah? Therefore Islam forbids this idea. > >  > > There is one idea in Islam that *Shayatan* was created from the fire. > >  > > Actually as far as I know - I maybe wrong - Shaitan was an Angel, fallen by ego. The entities which live by fire as per Islam are called the Jinns. They are another class who mostly dwell in the smoke that comes from fire. They supposedly carry information from earth to the heavens and use fire as a tool for the same. > >  > > Often muslim tantriks and Islamic occult practitioner use Jinns for different purposes. I don't know what is the exact correspondence to Hindu terminologies for the entity called Jinn, but I know people who do actually use Jinns and work out so called miracles. Maybe they are something like spirits or beings of some astral plane. > >  > > However, one who does Homa need for a deity need not worry about these in the least. When a deity like Mahaganapati or Chandika in present, nothing else will dare interfere. > >  > > But the real reason why most muslims have an issue with fire is because in one Hadith it is mentioned prophet Muhammed disliked fire because it reminded him of Hellfire. Fire to them is a symbol of the final times where the sinners and the kufrs will be thrown by Allah into a huge fire. > >  > > sadly in the view of the people like Dr. Zakir Naik, they run 180 degree apart in different directions or actually they try to make it such that they never meet. > >  > > Hmm, I would beg to disagree. In my reading of Islam, Zakir Naik is correct. As I said he only lies and use half truths when it comes to other religion. For Islam he quotes correctly and wholesomely. The difference between Islam and non Islamic ideology - specially Hindus/Buddism/ Jainism etc is irreconcileable. An explanation for this maybe digressing and long. > >  > > But generally, if I were born in a muslim family, and were made to read teh Koran and Hadiths day in and day out and trust the Koran as the perfected word of God and Muhammed as the perfected man, one whose whole life was teh Koran in motion, I would consider Zakir Naik to be 100 % correct. The differences are so fundamental that unless one is ready to whitewash and ignore a LOT of things, there cannot be a reconciliation. > >  > > Remember, Aurnagzeb started memorizing the koran for 9 years. At the end of the nine years he started his temple demolishion campaign. > > > > > > It is no wonder that more than 90 percent of muslim youth, even those highly educated consider Zakir Naik to be a gift of Allah to the Ummah and the greatest 'scholar' of Islam and 'comparitive religions' alive on earth. I am speaking from personal interaction. > >  > > At some point I used to get very angry with muslims. Now I don't. I find them to be a victim more than any one, and a victim who is not even aware of the fact that he is a victim! A victim not of USA or Zionists or Hindus or anyone. A victim of the idea called Islam. > >  > > The above statement may seem controversial, but it is not a casual remark. > >  > > -Regards > >  Rajarshi > > > >  > >  > > > > > > > > > >  > > > > The upsurge (of consciousness) is Bhairava - Shiva Sutra > > > > --- On Thu, 19/11/09, vedic_pathak <vedic_pathak@ ...> wrote: > > > > > > vedic_pathak <vedic_pathak@ ...> > > Re: Poetry of Bulle Shah - Sufi > > > > Thursday, 19 November, 2009, 7:33 PM > > > > > >  > > > > > > > > Dear Rajarshi, > > > > Thank you for these informations on Sufis. But one information still needed about their Krishna Bhakti. were there any saints among Sufis who actually sang Bhajans in praise of Krishna? > > > > *** > > >Communion with God is an idea impossible is the Islam of Muhammed. >The creator is always seperate from the creation.Period. Anything >else is Kufr > > > > That is a right statement. > > That is what Dr. Zakir highlighted. You say tree is God, men are God, hills are God, Sun, moon and everything is God while We say that everything is of Allah (God). > > > > *** > > a different Note: > > > > one intresting point - There is one idea in Islam that *Shayatan* was created from the fire. > > > > We everyday do Fire worship ritual! > > > > Incidently one of my very good friends, who is Muslim is coming to my home with Family and will stay with me for a week. he'll see me doing Homam everyday. He and his wife knows about it. infact i've done many Chadi Paath recitations at his home and even my Maha Lakshmi vratam if it happened to be a friday. Whenever i visit their home, his wife sees to it that there is no Non veg food brought in his home. > > He'll offer his Namaz ritual at my home. so Homam and Namaz will go parallelly. This parallel of different rituals has a meeting point in both of our hearts. sadly in the view of the people like Dr. Zakir Naik, they run 180 degree apart in different directions or actually they try to make it such that they never meet. > > > > Best Regards, > > > > Utpal > > > > , rajarshi nandy <rajarshi14@ ...> wrote: > > > > > > > > > Dear Utpal, > > >  > > > If you are asking specifically about Bulle Shah, he was a Sufi saint of the 15th Century in area of modern Pakisthan. As you can well understand from his poetry, his realization was quite different from traditional Islamic learning. Bulle Shah was quite disliked by muslims of his time. He was a pacifist and a true saint. > > >  > > > Most people consider Sufism or Sufiana to be a branch of Islam. My personal view is different. In most of the poetry I have read of famous Sufi sants like JalÄ�l ad-DÄ«n Muḥammad BalkhÄ« Rumi convince me that their personal realization was quite different from Islamic doctrins. As such the roots of the Sufi philosphy like in pre Islamic Persian and India. The mystics of these areas, specially Persia, after it was over run by Islam, in order to protect their philosophy garbed it with Islamic terminologies and names. Otherwise they would have faced sure shot slaughter. That was a means of self preservation which in turn, over years, helped a lot of muslims in treading a more sublime path - IMHO - than that which comes from the Ahadiths and the Koran proper. > > >  > > > For example Rumi talks a about something similar to reincarnation in some of his poems while the following one does talk about communion with God: > > >  > > > I searched for God among the Christians and on the Cross and therein I found Him not. > > > I went into the ancient temples of idolatry; no trace of Him was there. > > > I entered the mountain cave of Hira and then went as far as Qandhar but God I found not. > > > With set purpose I fared to the summit of Mount Caucasus and found there only 'anqa's habitation. > > > Then I directed my search to the Kaaba, the resort of old and young; God was not there even. > > > Turning to philosophy I inquired about him from ibn Sina but found Him not within his range. > > > I fared then to the scene of the Prophet's experience of a great divine manifestation only a " two bow-lengths' distance from him " but God was not there even in that exalted court. > > > Finally, I looked into my own heart and there I saw Him; He was nowhere else. > > >  > > > Communion with God is an idea impossible is the Islam of Muhammed. The creator is always seperate from the creation.Period. Anything else is Kufr. Though in later verses Rumi did eulogize Muhammed and the Koran, my interpretation is that all that was an attempt at disguising Kufr with an Islamic garb. > > >  > > >  > > > The person who changed the life of Rumi was also another Sufi called Shams-e-Tabrizi. Vimalananda mentions a popular legend which says Shams was so powerful that he couild raise the dead. One day the mullas caught up with him and asked him to demonstrate. Shams went to a dead body and said, " In the name of Allah, wake up! " . But nothing happened. He tried a few times and yet nothing happened. Finally he said, " In my name, wake up! " and the dead body woke up. Immediate the Mulla caught him for doing Kufr - ideally you cannot invoke anyone for help other than Allah as per true Islam - and executed him. > > >  > > > Same was with case with Mansur-al-Hallaj who was executed for proclaiming Anal Haq which literally means I am the Truth. This statement is also considered Kufr as per traditional Islam. > > >  > > > Auliya Nizamuddin was another great Sufi who introduced Qwaalis in India. It is said he had advised the mother of Shivaji to worship lord Shiva for a son before Shivaji was born. > > >  > > > Generally, except for the famous Moinunddin Chisti of Ajmer, I have deep respect for most Sufis saint. > > >  > > > Though Sufis always showed a different more subjective interpretation of Koran, however the genuine Muslim scholars were never fooled. Most of them considered Sufis to be non Islamic. Even today. And I do not blame them. An honest reading of the Koran and the hadiths with tell you in no uncertain terms that the philosophy of Vedanta or any sort of God communion is unacceptable to Islam. I won't digress into my views of what ails Islam, but Sufis can be safely called unIslamic if a true, traditional and authentic version of Islam is to be followed. > > >  > > > BTW, Sufi ideas are quite famous in modern day cities where we find the fashionably spiritual higher middle class. But like most things under the sun, they hardly know anything about anything. > > >  > > > -Regards > > >  Rajarshi > > >  > > >  > > >  > > >  > > >  > > >  > > > > > >  > > > > > > The upsurge (of consciousness) is Bhairava - Shiva Sutra > > > > > > --- On Thu, 19/11/09, vedic_pathak <vedic_pathak@ ...> wrote: > > > > > > > > > vedic_pathak <vedic_pathak@ ...> > > > Re: Poetry of Bulle Shah - Sufi > > > > > > Thursday, 19 November, 2009, 5:21 PM > > > > > > > > >  > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Rajarshi, > > > > > > >Some years back this specific poem of Baba Bulle Shah - a sufi >mystic > > > > > > can you provid me knowledge of this Sufi sect. is it one of the branch from Islam?. I've come across some articles in the past which indicates that some of the Sufi saints were even Krishna Bhakta and have sang songs for praising Krishna in their sufi style. > > > > > > Warm Regards, > > > > > > Utpal > > > > > > , rajarshi nandy <rajarshi14@ ...> wrote: > > > > > > > > Hi Everyone, > > > > Ã, > > > > Some years back this specific poem of Baba Bulle Shah - a sufi mystic - was made into a very popular song in India. I just thought of sharing it again with the members here. > > > > Ã, > > > > The following poem of his is a classic. Purely self realized. > > > > First the translation and then the original for anyone who understands punjabi: > > > > Ã, > > > > Not a believer inside the mosque, am I > > > > Nor a pagan disciple of false rites > > > > Not the pure amongst the impure > > > > Neither Moses, nor the Pharoh > > > > > > > > Bulleh! to me, I am not known > > > > > > > > Not in the holy Vedas, am I > > > > Nor in opium, neither in wine > > > > Not in the drunkard`s craze > > > > Niether awake, nor in a sleeping daze > > > > > > > > Bulleh! to me, I am not known > > > > > > > > In happiness nor in sorrow, am I > > > > Neither clean, nor a filthy mire > > > > Not from water, nor from earth > > > > Neither fire, nor from air, is my birth > > > > > > > > Bulleh! to me, I am not known > > > > > > > > Not an Arab, nor Lahori > > > > Neither Hindi, nor Nagauri > > > > Hindu, Turk (Muslim), nor Peshawari > > > > Nor do I live in Nadaun > > > > > > > > Bulleh! to me, I am not known > > > > > > > > Secrets of religion, I have not known > > > > From Adam and Eve, I am not born > > > > I am not the name I assume > > > > Not in stillness, nor on the move > > > > > > > > Bulleh! to me, I am not known > > > > > > > > I am the first, I am the last > > > > None other, have I ever known > > > > I am the wisest of them all > > > > Bulleh! do I stand alone? > > > > > > > > Bulleh! to me, I am not known > > > > > > > > Orginal: > > > > Ã, > > > > Na maen momin vich maseet aan > > > > Na maen vich kufar diyan reet aan > > > > Na maen paakaan vich paleet aan > > > > Na maen moosa na pharaun. > > > > > > > > Bulleh! ki jaana maen kaun > > > > Ã, > > > > Na maen andar ved kitaab aan, > > > > Na vich bhangaan na sharaab aan > > > > Na vich rindaan masat kharaab aan > > > > Na vich jaagan na vich saun. > > > > > > > > Bulleh! ki jaana maen kaun. > > > > > > > > Na vich shaadi na ghamnaaki > > > > Na maen vich paleeti paaki > > > > Na maen aabi na maen khaki > > > > Na maen aatish na maen paun > > > > > > > > Bulleh!, ki jaana maen kaun > > > > > > > > Na maen arabi na lahori > > > > Na maen hindi shehar nagauri > > > > Na hindu na turak peshawri > > > > Na maen rehnda vich nadaun > > > > > > > > Bulla, ki jaana maen kaun > > > > > > > > Na maen bheth mazhab da paaya > > > > Ne maen aadam havva jaaya > > > > Na maen apna naam dharaaya > > > > Na vich baitthan na vich bhaun > > > > > > > > Bulleh , ki jaana maen kaun > > > > > > > > Avval aakhir aap nu jaana > > > > Na koi dooja hor pehchaana > > > > Maethon hor na koi siyaana > > > > Bulla! ooh khadda hai kaun > > > > > > > > Bulla, ki jaana maen kaun... > > > > Ã, > > > > Ã, > > > > Ã, > > > > Ã, > > > > Ã, > > > > -Regards > > > > Ã, Rajarshi > > The INTERNET now has a personality. 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Guest guest Posted November 20, 2009 Report Share Posted November 20, 2009 mohumad is more powerful than allahmohamad claims he is the last prophetallah is powerless to send next prophetwidows can remarry but not widows of mohumad lest they spill his secretsluring a civilisation with sex motives and teaching female genital mutilationwill prophet cut his pennis like he cut lot female childrens clitorisseperate law for man and womencut females clitoris train males in vajrasana to make penis largerbreed more poisonous islamistvedic_pathak <vedic_pathak Sent: Fri, November 20, 2009 6:55:47 PM Re: Clashes between religions Dear Narasimha, I was thinking in the same line as Rajarshi has expressed in the below message about Sain Baba. In the morning when i saw your message, first thing came to my mind is that How much influence Sain baba or Kabir has on Muslims today? Immediately Shirdi temple and long queue came to my imagination and can we find any Muslims there? The fact remains that be it Sain Baba or Kabir or another saint, unifying effect is only on Hindus and their followers today are also only those. >>>It was heartening to me when I saw it. I saw a ray of hope<<< Honestly, I am not very excited with this. The Fundamental reasons which Rajarshi has mentioned are true. and those are the very reasons which prevents even the broad minded Islamic individual to succumb finally. In my opinion, it requires a radical force from within the followers of Islam itself which can change their outlook for good. Best Regards, Utpal , rajarshi nandy <rajarshi14@ ...> wrote: > > Dear Narasimha, >  >  > I read the other mail. Its very true and correct. >  > It is also true that Sai Baba did a lot for unifying the communities. However the current truth is that the effect of Sai Baba on larger muslim psyche is very less, to be honest almost negligible. >  > In history there have been people who have tried to modify, change, reinterpret Islam based on desh-kaal-patra but it only resulted in more violence. The Ahamadiyas get persecuted ruthlessly even today just as the Bahai followers. >  > Again the reason is because Muhammed had told muslims that nothing can change from what he has been told, he is the last prophet and Koran is the direct and final word of God. Nothing more after this. Plus da'wa or inviting non muslims to take up Islam is their holy duty which will earn them a place in heaven. They truely and blindly believe in these two. No amount of logic, reason etc will work here. >  > Hence Islam cannot change. It never has, it never will. It can only die. >  > -Regards >  Rajarshi >  >  > > >  > > The upsurge (of consciousness) is Bhairava - Shiva Sutra > > --- On Fri, 20/11/09, Narasimha P.V.R. Rao <pvr wrote: > > > Narasimha P.V.R. Rao <pvr > Clashes between religions > > Friday, 20 November, 2009, 9:11 AM > > >  > > > > > Namaste, >  > Rajarshi said: >  > > The differences are so fundamental that unless one is ready to whitewash > > and ignore a LOT of things, there cannot be a reconciliation. >  > There have been saints like Sant Kabir and Shirdi Sai Baba, who have demonstrated how to reconcile. >  > Sai Baba broke the orthodox rules of both Hindusm and Islam. Nobody knew till the end whether he was a Hindu or a Muslim. He lived in a mosque and did namaz, but also maintained a continuous fire with him like Hindu yogis. He did that inside a mosque, which is considered blasphemous as Islam considers fire to be very inauspicious! He gave sublime interpretations of Qoran and also Bhagavad Gita and other Hindu scriptures. He never hesitated to tell a Hindu, "Allah will do good to you" or to tell a Muslim, "Ram will bless you". Hindus and Muslims alike considered him their own and worshipped him. Even today, there is a specific ritual at his tomb in Shirdi, where Hindus stand on one side of the tomb and Muslims on the other and they worship him together, using their own methods. >  > It was heartening to me when I saw it. I saw a ray of hope in the age of religious intolerance and fundamentalism and killing in the name of god. >  > *       *       * >  > > We have many religions and movements, most of them started by people of varying levels of self-realization, who taught guidelines that were quite helpful and relevant to the spiritual progress of people around them at their times. Just as raw grains remain fresh for a long time while cooked grains become stale fast, similarly uninterpreted and intangible essence of the teachings of scriptures remains fresh for a long time while interpreted, tangible and clear guidelines that are ready for digestion by followers become stale (irrelevant/ inapplicable) fast. Great teachers effectively cook the raw grains of scriptural essence using the heat of their wisdom and the water of their compassion and serve cooked food ready for consumption by people around them. >  > When people stick to some irrelevant details and miss the essence, it can result in clashes and conflicts. The purpose of religion is to aid in finding god. Unfortunately, no universal thumbrules can be given for finding god. A good religion will not depend on a single text or person and will depend on a string of self-realized souls who re-interpret previous texts based on their realization from time to time. That is certainly true with sanatana dharma. >  The last paragraph in the following post is quite relevant in this context. >  > http://groups. / group/vedic- wisdom/message/ 1601 >  > Best regards, > Narasimha > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- > Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ homam > Do Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ tarpana > Spirituality: http://groups. / group/vedic- wisdom > Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro. home.comcast. net > Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAst rologer.org > Jyotish writings: http://groups. / group/JyotishWri tings > Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagan nath.org > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- >  > > - > "vedic_pathak" <vedic_pathak@ > > <> > Thursday, November 19, 2009 5:11 PM > Re: Poetry of Bulle Shah - Sufi > > Dear Rajarshi, > > Thanks for the information on Wajid Ali Shah. > > *** > >Islam considers Muhammed to be Insan-e-Kamil, the perfected man. If >that perfected man could not have a directed communion with Allah >ever, and needed a Gibril (Gabriel is Gibril in Arabic) as in >intermediary, > > Islaam in nutshell is The life of Prophet Muhammad and writings in Koran. That is the 'Patthar Ki Lakir' for all or most of them. so it may not be difficult to *mugup* what is written in one book. so i dont deny that Dr. Naik knows Koran well. > *** > I was told that Allah created beings- first Angel, then Shaytan (FIRE) and finally Man (from Earth element-taken as a best of creation). And then he asked Angel and Shaytan to Salute the Man which was obeyed by Angel but not by Shaytan. Shayatn then on started corrupting minds of Men by influencing them to pray to the statues (images - idolatary) and like wise getting them away from Allah. > > I may be little wrong in the above understanding. > > *** >  > However, one who does Homa need for a deity need not worry >about these in the least. When a deity like Mahaganapati or >Chandika in present, nothing else will dare interfere. > > I was just joking when i said that we do fire rituals. it was a teasing remark. Fear ki to aisi ki taisi... > > *** > >The differences are so fundamental that unless one is ready to >whitewash and ignore a LOT of things, there cannot be a >reconciliation. > > You see my reply to Krishnendu about Fanatics and Blind *Faith*. when one keep faith in any one book/Man/idea, without understanding or thinking, the earth will have blood shed and reconciliation will only be a day dreaming. > > Thank God that Sanatana dharma is not the doctrain of a Single person or book or idea but a collective ocean where many rivers meet and merge. >  > Best Regards, > > Utpal > > > > , rajarshi nandy <rajarshi14@ ..> wrote: > > > > Dear Utpal, > >  > > Even I have heard that there were Sufis  who were devoted to Krishna. Wajid Ali Shah - the nawab of Oudh was one such person. Vimalananda says he was a Kinnara who had incarnated on this plane. Quite possible. He used to go mad for love of Krishna and keep playing teh dance of Gopis for Krishna. Although he used to do his five times Namaz as well. There were other such Sufis too I have heard who were devoted to Krishna. > >  > > That is what Dr. Zakir highlighted. You say tree is God, men are God, hills are God, Sun, moon and everything is God while We say that everything is of Allah (God). > >  > > Trust Dr Naik when he is speaking on the Koran. Do not trust him when he speaks on anything else. He does know his Koran well. > >  > > Look at this logically. Islam considers Muhammed to be Insan-e-Kamil, the perfected man. If that perfected man could not have a directed communion with Allah ever, and needed a Gibril (Gabriel is Gibril in Arabic) as in intermediary, why should any other muslim ever have a direct connection with Allah? Therefore Islam forbids this idea. > >  > > There is one idea in Islam that *Shayatan* was created from the fire. > >  > > Actually as far as I know - I maybe wrong - Shaitan was an Angel, fallen by ego. The entities which live by fire as per Islam are called the Jinns. They are another class who mostly dwell in the smoke that comes from fire. They supposedly carry information from earth to the heavens and use fire as a tool for the same. > >  > > Often muslim tantriks and Islamic occult practitioner use Jinns for different purposes. I don't know what is the exact correspondence to Hindu terminologies for the entity called Jinn, but I know people who do actually use Jinns and work out so called miracles. Maybe they are something like spirits or beings of some astral plane. > >  > > However, one who does Homa need for a deity need not worry about these in the least. When a deity like Mahaganapati or Chandika in present, nothing else will dare interfere. > >  > > But the real reason why most muslims have an issue with fire is because in one Hadith it is mentioned prophet Muhammed disliked fire because it reminded him of Hellfire. Fire to them is a symbol of the final times where the sinners and the kufrs will be thrown by Allah into a huge fire. > >  > > sadly in the view of the people like Dr. Zakir Naik, they run 180 degree apart in different directions or actually they try to make it such that they never meet. > >  > > Hmm, I would beg to disagree. In my reading of Islam, Zakir Naik is correct. As I said he only lies and use half truths when it comes to other religion. For Islam he quotes correctly and wholesomely. The difference between Islam and non Islamic ideology - specially Hindus/Buddism/ Jainism etc is irreconcileable. An explanation for this maybe digressing and long. > >  > > But generally, if I were born in a muslim family, and were made to read teh Koran and Hadiths day in and day out and trust the Koran as the perfected word of God and Muhammed as the perfected man, one whose whole life was teh Koran in motion, I would consider Zakir Naik to be 100 % correct. The differences are so fundamental that unless one is ready to whitewash and ignore a LOT of things, there cannot be a reconciliation. > >  > > Remember, Aurnagzeb started memorizing the koran for 9 years. At the end of the nine years he started his temple demolishion campaign. > > > > > > It is no wonder that more than 90 percent of muslim youth, even those highly educated consider Zakir Naik to be a gift of Allah to the Ummah and the greatest 'scholar' of Islam and 'comparitive religions' alive on earth. I am speaking from personal interaction. > >  > > At some point I used to get very angry with muslims. Now I don't. I find them to be a victim more than any one, and a victim who is not even aware of the fact that he is a victim! A victim not of USA or Zionists or Hindus or anyone. A victim of the idea called Islam. > >  > > The above statement may seem controversial, but it is not a casual remark. > >  > > -Regards > >  Rajarshi > > > >  > >  > > > > > > > > > >  > > > > The upsurge (of consciousness) is Bhairava - Shiva Sutra > > > > --- On Thu, 19/11/09, vedic_pathak <vedic_pathak@ ...> wrote: > > > > > > vedic_pathak <vedic_pathak@ ...> > > Re: Poetry of Bulle Shah - Sufi > > > > Thursday, 19 November, 2009, 7:33 PM > > > > > >  > > > > > > > > Dear Rajarshi, > > > > Thank you for these informations on Sufis. But one information still needed about their Krishna Bhakti. were there any saints among Sufis who actually sang Bhajans in praise of Krishna? > > > > *** > > >Communion with God is an idea impossible is the Islam of Muhammed. >The creator is always seperate from the creation.Period. Anything >else is Kufr > > > > That is a right statement. > > That is what Dr. Zakir highlighted. You say tree is God, men are God, hills are God, Sun, moon and everything is God while We say that everything is of Allah (God). > > > > *** > > a different Note: > > > > one intresting point - There is one idea in Islam that *Shayatan* was created from the fire. > > > > We everyday do Fire worship ritual! > > > > Incidently one of my very good friends, who is Muslim is coming to my home with Family and will stay with me for a week. he'll see me doing Homam everyday. He and his wife knows about it. infact i've done many Chadi Paath recitations at his home and even my Maha Lakshmi vratam if it happened to be a friday. Whenever i visit their home, his wife sees to it that there is no Non veg food brought in his home. > > He'll offer his Namaz ritual at my home. so Homam and Namaz will go parallelly. This parallel of different rituals has a meeting point in both of our hearts. sadly in the view of the people like Dr. Zakir Naik, they run 180 degree apart in different directions or actually they try to make it such that they never meet. > > > > Best Regards, > > > > Utpal > > > > , rajarshi nandy <rajarshi14@ ...> wrote: > > > > > > > > > Dear Utpal, > > >  > > > If you are asking specifically about Bulle Shah, he was a Sufi saint of the 15th Century in area of modern Pakisthan. As you can well understand from his poetry, his realization was quite different from traditional Islamic learning. Bulle Shah was quite disliked by muslims of his time. He was a pacifist and a true saint. > > >  > > > Most people consider Sufism or Sufiana to be a branch of Islam. My personal view is different. In most of the poetry I have read of famous Sufi sants like JalÄ�l ad-DÄ«n Muḥammad BalkhÄ« Rumi convince me that their personal realization was quite different from Islamic doctrins. As such the roots of the Sufi philosphy like in pre Islamic Persian and India. The mystics of these areas, specially Persia, after it was over run by Islam, in order to protect their philosophy garbed it with Islamic terminologies and names. Otherwise they would have faced sure shot slaughter. That was a means of self preservation which in turn, over years, helped a lot of muslims in treading a more sublime path - IMHO - than that which comes from the Ahadiths and the Koran proper. > > >  > > > For example Rumi talks a about something similar to reincarnation in some of his poems while the following one does talk about communion with God: > > >  > > > I searched for God among the Christians and on the Cross and therein I found Him not. > > > I went into the ancient temples of idolatry; no trace of Him was there. > > > I entered the mountain cave of Hira and then went as far as Qandhar but God I found not. > > > With set purpose I fared to the summit of Mount Caucasus and found there only 'anqa's habitation. > > > Then I directed my search to the Kaaba, the resort of old and young; God was not there even. > > > Turning to philosophy I inquired about him from ibn Sina but found Him not within his range. > > > I fared then to the scene of the Prophet's experience of a great divine manifestation only a "two bow-lengths' distance from him" but God was not there even in that exalted court. > > > Finally, I looked into my own heart and there I saw Him; He was nowhere else. > > >  > > > Communion with God is an idea impossible is the Islam of Muhammed. The creator is always seperate from the creation.Period. Anything else is Kufr. Though in later verses Rumi did eulogize Muhammed and the Koran, my interpretation is that all that was an attempt at disguising Kufr with an Islamic garb. > > >  > > >  > > > The person who changed the life of Rumi was also another Sufi called Shams-e-Tabrizi. Vimalananda mentions a popular legend which says Shams was so powerful that he couild raise the dead. One day the mullas caught up with him and asked him to demonstrate. Shams went to a dead body and said, "In the name of Allah, wake up!". But nothing happened. He tried a few times and yet nothing happened. Finally he said, "In my name, wake up!" and the dead body woke up. Immediate the Mulla caught him for doing Kufr - ideally you cannot invoke anyone for help other than Allah as per true Islam - and executed him. > > >  > > > Same was with case with Mansur-al-Hallaj who was executed for proclaiming Anal Haq which literally means I am the Truth. This statement is also considered Kufr as per traditional Islam. > > >  > > > Auliya Nizamuddin was another great Sufi who introduced Qwaalis in India. It is said he had advised the mother of Shivaji to worship lord Shiva for a son before Shivaji was born. > > >  > > > Generally, except for the famous Moinunddin Chisti of Ajmer, I have deep respect for most Sufis saint. > > >  > > > Though Sufis always showed a different more subjective interpretation of Koran, however the genuine Muslim scholars were never fooled. Most of them considered Sufis to be non Islamic. Even today. And I do not blame them. An honest reading of the Koran and the hadiths with tell you in no uncertain terms that the philosophy of Vedanta or any sort of God communion is unacceptable to Islam. I won't digress into my views of what ails Islam, but Sufis can be safely called unIslamic if a true, traditional and authentic version of Islam is to be followed. > > >  > > > BTW, Sufi ideas are quite famous in modern day cities where we find the fashionably spiritual higher middle class. But like most things under the sun, they hardly know anything about anything. > > >  > > > -Regards > > >  Rajarshi > > >  > > >  > > >  > > >  > > >  > > >  > > > > > >  > > > > > > The upsurge (of consciousness) is Bhairava - Shiva Sutra > > > > > > --- On Thu, 19/11/09, vedic_pathak <vedic_pathak@ ...> wrote: > > > > > > > > > vedic_pathak <vedic_pathak@ ...> > > > Re: Poetry of Bulle Shah - Sufi > > > > > > Thursday, 19 November, 2009, 5:21 PM > > > > > > > > >  > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Rajarshi, > > > > > > >Some years back this specific poem of Baba Bulle Shah - a sufi >mystic > > > > > > can you provid me knowledge of this Sufi sect. is it one of the branch from Islam?. I've come across some articles in the past which indicates that some of the Sufi saints were even Krishna Bhakta and have sang songs for praising Krishna in their sufi style. > > > > > > Warm Regards, > > > > > > Utpal > > > > > > , rajarshi nandy <rajarshi14@ ...> wrote: > > > > > > > > Hi Everyone, > > > > Ã, > > > > Some years back this specific poem of Baba Bulle Shah - a sufi mystic - was made into a very popular song in India. I just thought of sharing it again with the members here. > > > > Ã, > > > > The following poem of his is a classic. Purely self realized. > > > > First the translation and then the original for anyone who understands punjabi: > > > > Ã, > > > > Not a believer inside the mosque, am I > > > > Nor a pagan disciple of false rites > > > > Not the pure amongst the impure > > > > Neither Moses, nor the Pharoh > > > > > > > > Bulleh! to me, I am not known > > > > > > > > Not in the holy Vedas, am I > > > > Nor in opium, neither in wine > > > > Not in the drunkard`s craze > > > > Niether awake, nor in a sleeping daze > > > > > > > > Bulleh! to me, I am not known > > > > > > > > In happiness nor in sorrow, am I > > > > Neither clean, nor a filthy mire > > > > Not from water, nor from earth > > > > Neither fire, nor from air, is my birth > > > > > > > > Bulleh! to me, I am not known > > > > > > > > Not an Arab, nor Lahori > > > > Neither Hindi, nor Nagauri > > > > Hindu, Turk (Muslim), nor Peshawari > > > > Nor do I live in Nadaun > > > > > > > > Bulleh! to me, I am not known > > > > > > > > Secrets of religion, I have not known > > > > From Adam and Eve, I am not born > > > > I am not the name I assume > > > > Not in stillness, nor on the move > > > > > > > > Bulleh! to me, I am not known > > > > > > > > I am the first, I am the last > > > > None other, have I ever known > > > > I am the wisest of them all > > > > Bulleh! do I stand alone? > > > > > > > > Bulleh! to me, I am not known > > > > > > > > Orginal: > > > > Ã, > > > > Na maen momin vich maseet aan > > > > Na maen vich kufar diyan reet aan > > > > Na maen paakaan vich paleet aan > > > > Na maen moosa na pharaun. > > > > > > > > Bulleh! ki jaana maen kaun > > > > Ã, > > > > Na maen andar ved kitaab aan, > > > > Na vich bhangaan na sharaab aan > > > > Na vich rindaan masat kharaab aan > > > > Na vich jaagan na vich saun. > > > > > > > > Bulleh! ki jaana maen kaun. > > > > > > > > Na vich shaadi na ghamnaaki > > > > Na maen vich paleeti paaki > > > > Na maen aabi na maen khaki > > > > Na maen aatish na maen paun > > > > > > > > Bulleh!, ki jaana maen kaun > > > > > > > > Na maen arabi na lahori > > > > Na maen hindi shehar nagauri > > > > Na hindu na turak peshawri > > > > Na maen rehnda vich nadaun > > > > > > > > Bulla, ki jaana maen kaun > > > > > > > > Na maen bheth mazhab da paaya > > > > Ne maen aadam havva jaaya > > > > Na maen apna naam dharaaya > > > > Na vich baitthan na vich bhaun > > > > > > > > Bulleh , ki jaana maen kaun > > > > > > > > Avval aakhir aap nu jaana > > > > Na koi dooja hor pehchaana > > > > Maethon hor na koi siyaana > > > > Bulla! ooh khadda hai kaun > > > > > > > > Bulla, ki jaana maen kaun... > > > > Ã, > > > > Ã, > > > > Ã, > > > > Ã, > > > > Ã, > > > > -Regards > > > > Ã, Rajarshi > > > > > > > > > The INTERNET now has a personality. 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Guest guest Posted November 20, 2009 Report Share Posted November 20, 2009 Woha ... why has this spiritual group suddenly become an Islam bashing place...Comeon guys, time to move on...Let's find strengths in our faith not weakness in others.Se Am <mahalaxmyey Sent: Fri, 20 November, 2009 16:36:07Re: Re: Clashes between religions  mohumad is more powerful than allahmohamad claims he is the last prophetallah is powerless to send next prophetwidows can remarry but not widows of mohumad lest they spill his secretsluring a civilisation with sex motives and teaching female genital mutilationwill prophet cut his pennis like he cut lot female childrens clitorisseperate law for man and womencut females clitoris train males in vajrasana to make penis largerbreed more poisonous islamistvedic_pathak <vedic_pathak@ >Fri, November 20, 2009 6:55:47 PM Re: Clashes between religions  Dear Narasimha, I was thinking in the same line as Rajarshi has expressed in the below message about Sain Baba. In the morning when i saw your message, first thing came to my mind is that How much influence Sain baba or Kabir has on Muslims today? Immediately Shirdi temple and long queue came to my imagination and can we find any Muslims there? The fact remains that be it Sain Baba or Kabir or another saint, unifying effect is only on Hindus and their followers today are also only those. >>>It was heartening to me when I saw it. I saw a ray of hope<<< Honestly, I am not very excited with this. The Fundamental reasons which Rajarshi has mentioned are true. and those are the very reasons which prevents even the broad minded Islamic individual to succumb finally. In my opinion, it requires a radical force from within the followers of Islam itself which can change their outlook for good. Best Regards, Utpal , rajarshi nandy <rajarshi14@ ...> wrote: > > Dear Narasimha, >  >  > I read the other mail. Its very true and correct. >  > It is also true that Sai Baba did a lot for unifying the communities. However the current truth is that the effect of Sai Baba on larger muslim psyche is very less, to be honest almost negligible. >  > In history there have been people who have tried to modify, change, reinterpret Islam based on desh-kaal-patra but it only resulted in more violence. The Ahamadiyas get persecuted ruthlessly even today just as the Bahai followers. >  > Again the reason is because Muhammed had told muslims that nothing can change from what he has been told, he is the last prophet and Koran is the direct and final word of God. Nothing more after this. Plus da'wa or inviting non muslims to take up Islam is their holy duty which will earn them a place in heaven. They truely and blindly believe in these two. No amount of logic, reason etc will work here. >  > Hence Islam cannot change. It never has, it never will. It can only die. >  > -Regards >  Rajarshi >  >  > > >  > > The upsurge (of consciousness) is Bhairava - Shiva Sutra > > --- On Fri, 20/11/09, Narasimha P.V.R. Rao <pvr wrote: > > > Narasimha P.V.R. Rao <pvr > Clashes between religions > > Friday, 20 November, 2009, 9:11 AM > > >  > > > > > Namaste, >  > Rajarshi said: >  > > The differences are so fundamental that unless one is ready to whitewash > > and ignore a LOT of things, there cannot be a reconciliation. >  > There have been saints like Sant Kabir and Shirdi Sai Baba, who have demonstrated how to reconcile. >  > Sai Baba broke the orthodox rules of both Hindusm and Islam. Nobody knew till the end whether he was a Hindu or a Muslim. He lived in a mosque and did namaz, but also maintained a continuous fire with him like Hindu yogis. He did that inside a mosque, which is considered blasphemous as Islam considers fire to be very inauspicious! He gave sublime interpretations of Qoran and also Bhagavad Gita and other Hindu scriptures. He never hesitated to tell a Hindu, "Allah will do good to you" or to tell a Muslim, "Ram will bless you". Hindus and Muslims alike considered him their own and worshipped him. Even today, there is a specific ritual at his tomb in Shirdi, where Hindus stand on one side of the tomb and Muslims on the other and they worship him together, using their own methods. >  > It was heartening to me when I saw it. I saw a ray of hope in the age of religious intolerance and fundamentalism and killing in the name of god. >  > *       *       * >  > > We have many religions and movements, most of them started by people of varying levels of self-realization, who taught guidelines that were quite helpful and relevant to the spiritual progress of people around them at their times. Just as raw grains remain fresh for a long time while cooked grains become stale fast, similarly uninterpreted and intangible essence of the teachings of scriptures remains fresh for a long time while interpreted, tangible and clear guidelines that are ready for digestion by followers become stale (irrelevant/ inapplicable) fast. Great teachers effectively cook the raw grains of scriptural essence using the heat of their wisdom and the water of their compassion and serve cooked food ready for consumption by people around them. >  > When people stick to some irrelevant details and miss the essence, it can result in clashes and conflicts. The purpose of religion is to aid in finding god. Unfortunately, no universal thumbrules can be given for finding god. A good religion will not depend on a single text or person and will depend on a string of self-realized souls who re-interpret previous texts based on their realization from time to time. That is certainly true with sanatana dharma. >  The last paragraph in the following post is quite relevant in this context. >  > http://groups. / group/vedic- wisdom/message/ 1601 >  > Best regards, > Narasimha > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- > Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ homam > Do Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ tarpana > Spirituality: http://groups. / group/vedic- wisdom > Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro. home.comcast. net > Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAst rologer.org > Jyotish writings: http://groups. / group/JyotishWri tings > Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagan nath.org > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- >  > > - > "vedic_pathak" <vedic_pathak@ > > <> > Thursday, November 19, 2009 5:11 PM > Re: Poetry of Bulle Shah - Sufi > > Dear Rajarshi, > > Thanks for the information on Wajid Ali Shah. > > *** > >Islam considers Muhammed to be Insan-e-Kamil, the perfected man. If >that perfected man could not have a directed communion with Allah >ever, and needed a Gibril (Gabriel is Gibril in Arabic) as in >intermediary, > > Islaam in nutshell is The life of Prophet Muhammad and writings in Koran. That is the 'Patthar Ki Lakir' for all or most of them. so it may not be difficult to *mugup* what is written in one book. so i dont deny that Dr. Naik knows Koran well. > *** > I was told that Allah created beings- first Angel, then Shaytan (FIRE) and finally Man (from Earth element-taken as a best of creation). And then he asked Angel and Shaytan to Salute the Man which was obeyed by Angel but not by Shaytan. Shayatn then on started corrupting minds of Men by influencing them to pray to the statues (images - idolatary) and like wise getting them away from Allah. > > I may be little wrong in the above understanding. > > *** >  > However, one who does Homa need for a deity need not worry >about these in the least. When a deity like Mahaganapati or >Chandika in present, nothing else will dare interfere. > > I was just joking when i said that we do fire rituals. it was a teasing remark. Fear ki to aisi ki taisi... > > *** > >The differences are so fundamental that unless one is ready to >whitewash and ignore a LOT of things, there cannot be a >reconciliation. > > You see my reply to Krishnendu about Fanatics and Blind *Faith*. when one keep faith in any one book/Man/idea, without understanding or thinking, the earth will have blood shed and reconciliation will only be a day dreaming. > > Thank God that Sanatana dharma is not the doctrain of a Single person or book or idea but a collective ocean where many rivers meet and merge. >  > Best Regards, > > Utpal > > > > , rajarshi nandy <rajarshi14@ ..> wrote: > > > > Dear Utpal, > >  > > Even I have heard that there were Sufis  who were devoted to Krishna. Wajid Ali Shah - the nawab of Oudh was one such person. Vimalananda says he was a Kinnara who had incarnated on this plane. Quite possible. He used to go mad for love of Krishna and keep playing teh dance of Gopis for Krishna. Although he used to do his five times Namaz as well. There were other such Sufis too I have heard who were devoted to Krishna. > >  > > That is what Dr. Zakir highlighted. You say tree is God, men are God, hills are God, Sun, moon and everything is God while We say that everything is of Allah (God). > >  > > Trust Dr Naik when he is speaking on the Koran. Do not trust him when he speaks on anything else. He does know his Koran well. > >  > > Look at this logically. Islam considers Muhammed to be Insan-e-Kamil, the perfected man. If that perfected man could not have a directed communion with Allah ever, and needed a Gibril (Gabriel is Gibril in Arabic) as in intermediary, why should any other muslim ever have a direct connection with Allah? Therefore Islam forbids this idea. > >  > > There is one idea in Islam that *Shayatan* was created from the fire. > >  > > Actually as far as I know - I maybe wrong - Shaitan was an Angel, fallen by ego. The entities which live by fire as per Islam are called the Jinns. They are another class who mostly dwell in the smoke that comes from fire. They supposedly carry information from earth to the heavens and use fire as a tool for the same. > >  > > Often muslim tantriks and Islamic occult practitioner use Jinns for different purposes. I don't know what is the exact correspondence to Hindu terminologies for the entity called Jinn, but I know people who do actually use Jinns and work out so called miracles. Maybe they are something like spirits or beings of some astral plane. > >  > > However, one who does Homa need for a deity need not worry about these in the least. When a deity like Mahaganapati or Chandika in present, nothing else will dare interfere. > >  > > But the real reason why most muslims have an issue with fire is because in one Hadith it is mentioned prophet Muhammed disliked fire because it reminded him of Hellfire. Fire to them is a symbol of the final times where the sinners and the kufrs will be thrown by Allah into a huge fire. > >  > > sadly in the view of the people like Dr. Zakir Naik, they run 180 degree apart in different directions or actually they try to make it such that they never meet. > >  > > Hmm, I would beg to disagree. In my reading of Islam, Zakir Naik is correct. As I said he only lies and use half truths when it comes to other religion. For Islam he quotes correctly and wholesomely. The difference between Islam and non Islamic ideology - specially Hindus/Buddism/ Jainism etc is irreconcileable. An explanation for this maybe digressing and long. > >  > > But generally, if I were born in a muslim family, and were made to read teh Koran and Hadiths day in and day out and trust the Koran as the perfected word of God and Muhammed as the perfected man, one whose whole life was teh Koran in motion, I would consider Zakir Naik to be 100 % correct. The differences are so fundamental that unless one is ready to whitewash and ignore a LOT of things, there cannot be a reconciliation. > >  > > Remember, Aurnagzeb started memorizing the koran for 9 years. At the end of the nine years he started his temple demolishion campaign. > > > > > > It is no wonder that more than 90 percent of muslim youth, even those highly educated consider Zakir Naik to be a gift of Allah to the Ummah and the greatest 'scholar' of Islam and 'comparitive religions' alive on earth. I am speaking from personal interaction. > >  > > At some point I used to get very angry with muslims. Now I don't. I find them to be a victim more than any one, and a victim who is not even aware of the fact that he is a victim! A victim not of USA or Zionists or Hindus or anyone. A victim of the idea called Islam. > >  > > The above statement may seem controversial, but it is not a casual remark. > >  > > -Regards > >  Rajarshi > > > >  > >  > > > > > > > > > >  > > > > The upsurge (of consciousness) is Bhairava - Shiva Sutra > > > > --- On Thu, 19/11/09, vedic_pathak <vedic_pathak@ ...> wrote: > > > > > > vedic_pathak <vedic_pathak@ ...> > > Re: Poetry of Bulle Shah - Sufi > > > > Thursday, 19 November, 2009, 7:33 PM > > > > > >  > > > > > > > > Dear Rajarshi, > > > > Thank you for these informations on Sufis. But one information still needed about their Krishna Bhakti. were there any saints among Sufis who actually sang Bhajans in praise of Krishna? > > > > *** > > >Communion with God is an idea impossible is the Islam of Muhammed. >The creator is always seperate from the creation.Period. Anything >else is Kufr > > > > That is a right statement. > > That is what Dr. Zakir highlighted. You say tree is God, men are God, hills are God, Sun, moon and everything is God while We say that everything is of Allah (God). > > > > *** > > a different Note: > > > > one intresting point - There is one idea in Islam that *Shayatan* was created from the fire. > > > > We everyday do Fire worship ritual! > > > > Incidently one of my very good friends, who is Muslim is coming to my home with Family and will stay with me for a week. he'll see me doing Homam everyday. He and his wife knows about it. infact i've done many Chadi Paath recitations at his home and even my Maha Lakshmi vratam if it happened to be a friday. Whenever i visit their home, his wife sees to it that there is no Non veg food brought in his home. > > He'll offer his Namaz ritual at my home. so Homam and Namaz will go parallelly. This parallel of different rituals has a meeting point in both of our hearts. sadly in the view of the people like Dr. Zakir Naik, they run 180 degree apart in different directions or actually they try to make it such that they never meet. > > > > Best Regards, > > > > Utpal > > > > , rajarshi nandy <rajarshi14@ ...> wrote: > > > > > > > > > Dear Utpal, > > >  > > > If you are asking specifically about Bulle Shah, he was a Sufi saint of the 15th Century in area of modern Pakisthan. As you can well understand from his poetry, his realization was quite different from traditional Islamic learning. Bulle Shah was quite disliked by muslims of his time. He was a pacifist and a true saint. > > >  > > > Most people consider Sufism or Sufiana to be a branch of Islam. My personal view is different. In most of the poetry I have read of famous Sufi sants like Jal�l ad-DÄ«n Muḥammad BalkhÄ« Rumi convince me that their personal realization was quite different from Islamic doctrins. As such the roots of the Sufi philosphy like in pre Islamic Persian and India. The mystics of these areas, specially Persia, after it was over run by Islam, in order to protect their philosophy garbed it with Islamic terminologies and names. Otherwise they would have faced sure shot slaughter. That was a means of self preservation which in turn, over years, helped a lot of muslims in treading a more sublime path - IMHO - than that which comes from the Ahadiths and the Koran proper. > > >  > > > For example Rumi talks a about something similar to reincarnation in some of his poems while the following one does talk about communion with God: > > >  > > > I searched for God among the Christians and on the Cross and therein I found Him not. > > > I went into the ancient temples of idolatry; no trace of Him was there. > > > I entered the mountain cave of Hira and then went as far as Qandhar but God I found not. > > > With set purpose I fared to the summit of Mount Caucasus and found there only 'anqa's habitation. > > > Then I directed my search to the Kaaba, the resort of old and young; God was not there even. > > > Turning to philosophy I inquired about him from ibn Sina but found Him not within his range. > > > I fared then to the scene of the Prophet's experience of a great divine manifestation only a "two bow-lengths' distance from him" but God was not there even in that exalted court. > > > Finally, I looked into my own heart and there I saw Him; He was nowhere else. > > >  > > > Communion with God is an idea impossible is the Islam of Muhammed. The creator is always seperate from the creation.Period. Anything else is Kufr. Though in later verses Rumi did eulogize Muhammed and the Koran, my interpretation is that all that was an attempt at disguising Kufr with an Islamic garb. > > >  > > >  > > > The person who changed the life of Rumi was also another Sufi called Shams-e-Tabrizi. Vimalananda mentions a popular legend which says Shams was so powerful that he couild raise the dead. One day the mullas caught up with him and asked him to demonstrate. Shams went to a dead body and said, "In the name of Allah, wake up!". But nothing happened. He tried a few times and yet nothing happened. Finally he said, "In my name, wake up!" and the dead body woke up. Immediate the Mulla caught him for doing Kufr - ideally you cannot invoke anyone for help other than Allah as per true Islam - and executed him. > > >  > > > Same was with case with Mansur-al-Hallaj who was executed for proclaiming Anal Haq which literally means I am the Truth. This statement is also considered Kufr as per traditional Islam. > > >  > > > Auliya Nizamuddin was another great Sufi who introduced Qwaalis in India. It is said he had advised the mother of Shivaji to worship lord Shiva for a son before Shivaji was born. > > >  > > > Generally, except for the famous Moinunddin Chisti of Ajmer, I have deep respect for most Sufis saint. > > >  > > > Though Sufis always showed a different more subjective interpretation of Koran, however the genuine Muslim scholars were never fooled. Most of them considered Sufis to be non Islamic. Even today. And I do not blame them. An honest reading of the Koran and the hadiths with tell you in no uncertain terms that the philosophy of Vedanta or any sort of God communion is unacceptable to Islam. I won't digress into my views of what ails Islam, but Sufis can be safely called unIslamic if a true, traditional and authentic version of Islam is to be followed. > > >  > > > BTW, Sufi ideas are quite famous in modern day cities where we find the fashionably spiritual higher middle class. But like most things under the sun, they hardly know anything about anything. > > >  > > > -Regards > > >  Rajarshi > > >  > > >  > > >  > > >  > > >  > > >  > > > > > >  > > > > > > The upsurge (of consciousness) is Bhairava - Shiva Sutra > > > > > > --- On Thu, 19/11/09, vedic_pathak <vedic_pathak@ ...> wrote: > > > > > > > > > vedic_pathak <vedic_pathak@ ...> > > > Re: Poetry of Bulle Shah - Sufi > > > > > > Thursday, 19 November, 2009, 5:21 PM > > > > > > > > >  > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Rajarshi, > > > > > > >Some years back this specific poem of Baba Bulle Shah - a sufi >mystic > > > > > > can you provid me knowledge of this Sufi sect. is it one of the branch from Islam?. I've come across some articles in the past which indicates that some of the Sufi saints were even Krishna Bhakta and have sang songs for praising Krishna in their sufi style. > > > > > > Warm Regards, > > > > > > Utpal > > > > > > , rajarshi nandy <rajarshi14@ ...> wrote: > > > > > > > > Hi Everyone, > > > > Ã, > > > > Some years back this specific poem of Baba Bulle Shah - a sufi mystic - was made into a very popular song in India. I just thought of sharing it again with the members here. > > > > Ã, > > > > The following poem of his is a classic. Purely self realized. > > > > First the translation and then the original for anyone who understands punjabi: > > > > Ã, > > > > Not a believer inside the mosque, am I > > > > Nor a pagan disciple of false rites > > > > Not the pure amongst the impure > > > > Neither Moses, nor the Pharoh > > > > > > > > Bulleh! to me, I am not known > > > > > > > > Not in the holy Vedas, am I > > > > Nor in opium, neither in wine > > > > Not in the drunkard`s craze > > > > Niether awake, nor in a sleeping daze > > > > > > > > Bulleh! to me, I am not known > > > > > > > > In happiness nor in sorrow, am I > > > > Neither clean, nor a filthy mire > > > > Not from water, nor from earth > > > > Neither fire, nor from air, is my birth > > > > > > > > Bulleh! to me, I am not known > > > > > > > > Not an Arab, nor Lahori > > > > Neither Hindi, nor Nagauri > > > > Hindu, Turk (Muslim), nor Peshawari > > > > Nor do I live in Nadaun > > > > > > > > Bulleh! to me, I am not known > > > > > > > > Secrets of religion, I have not known > > > > From Adam and Eve, I am not born > > > > I am not the name I assume > > > > Not in stillness, nor on the move > > > > > > > > Bulleh! to me, I am not known > > > > > > > > I am the first, I am the last > > > > None other, have I ever known > > > > I am the wisest of them all > > > > Bulleh! do I stand alone? > > > > > > > > Bulleh! to me, I am not known > > > > > > > > Orginal: > > > > Ã, > > > > Na maen momin vich maseet aan > > > > Na maen vich kufar diyan reet aan > > > > Na maen paakaan vich paleet aan > > > > Na maen moosa na pharaun. > > > > > > > > Bulleh! ki jaana maen kaun > > > > Ã, > > > > Na maen andar ved kitaab aan, > > > > Na vich bhangaan na sharaab aan > > > > Na vich rindaan masat kharaab aan > > > > Na vich jaagan na vich saun. > > > > > > > > Bulleh! ki jaana maen kaun. > > > > > > > > Na vich shaadi na ghamnaaki > > > > Na maen vich paleeti paaki > > > > Na maen aabi na maen khaki > > > > Na maen aatish na maen paun > > > > > > > > Bulleh!, ki jaana maen kaun > > > > > > > > Na maen arabi na lahori > > > > Na maen hindi shehar nagauri > > > > Na hindu na turak peshawri > > > > Na maen rehnda vich nadaun > > > > > > > > Bulla, ki jaana maen kaun > > > > > > > > Na maen bheth mazhab da paaya > > > > Ne maen aadam havva jaaya > > > > Na maen apna naam dharaaya > > > > Na vich baitthan na vich bhaun > > > > > > > > Bulleh , ki jaana maen kaun > > > > > > > > Avval aakhir aap nu jaana > > > > Na koi dooja hor pehchaana > > > > Maethon hor na koi siyaana > > > > Bulla! ooh khadda hai kaun > > > > > > > > Bulla, ki jaana maen kaun... > > > > Ã, > > > > Ã, > > > > Ã, > > > > Ã, > > > > Ã, > > > > -Regards > > > > Ã, Rajarshi > > > > > > > > > The INTERNET now has a personality. 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Guest guest Posted November 20, 2009 Report Share Posted November 20, 2009 Namaste friends, Which person, which entity, which organization, which movement and which religion needs to be born, needs to sustain itself, needs to transform and needs to " die " , at which time, is decided by the Supreme Power that runs the universe. Even the greatest yogis may not know everything and may know only part of the divine plan. A wise sadhaka observes things and unattachedly performs what one sees as one's dharma at a given time, but does not get agitated by anything or get attached to any ideas about past or future. Sanatana dharma has seen a steady stream of saints of high levels of realization for a very long time, but other religions too have seen saints of high levels of realization, though perhaps not at the same rate. * * * Even religions that you consider too rigid may get transformed over time, if that is the will of the Supreme Power running the universe. For example, Baha'i Faith is an offshoot of Islam, started by Bahaullah in the 19th century Persia, and differs considerably from Islam. It fits well with other faiths and experiences of saints from other faiths. It has 6 million followers and that is not too bad for a relatively recent religion. World is far better connected today compared to 150 or 100 years back. The impact of a Bahaullah or a Sai Baba or a Swami Vivekananda may be many times higher. God has a plan of what to do with which part of the world and with which religion, at which time. I suggest leaving things to god and doing one's own job with sincerity, equanimity and detachment. * * * The language being used by some in this thread is inappropriate for this forum. Please be civil and restrained. Apart of watching your language, one thumbrule I suggest is: do not write anything to this list when there is some agitation or anger or hatred or grouse or frustration in your mind. Write only when your mind is calm, clear and relaxed. Best regards, Narasimha Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAstrologer.org/homam Spirituality writings: Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAstrologer.org Jyotish writings: JyotishWritings Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro.home.comcast.net Do Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAstrologer.org/tarpana ---- rajarshi nandy <rajarshi14 wrote: > Dear Narasimha, > > I read the other mail. Its very true and correct. > > It is also true that Sai Baba did a lot for unifying the communities. However the current truth is that the effect of Sai Baba on larger muslim psyche is very less, to be honest almost negligible. > > In history there have been people who have tried to modify, change, reinterpret Islam based on desh-kaal-patra but it only resulted in more violence. The Ahamadiyas get persecuted ruthlessly even today just as the Bahai followers. > > Again the reason is because Muhammed had told muslims that nothing can change from what he has been told, he is the last prophet and Koran is the direct and final word of God. Nothing more after this. Plus da'wa or inviting non muslims to take up Islam is their holy duty which will earn them a place in heaven. They truely and blindly believe in these two. No amount of logic, reason etc will work here. > > Hence Islam cannot change. It never has, it never will. It can only die. > > -Regards > Rajarshi > > The upsurge (of consciousness) is Bhairava - Shiva Sutra > > --- On Fri, 20/11/09, Narasimha P.V.R. Rao <pvr wrote: > > Narasimha P.V.R. Rao <pvr > Clashes between religions > > Friday, 20 November, 2009, 9:11 AM > > Namaste, > > Rajarshi said: > > > The differences are so fundamental that unless one is ready to whitewash > > and ignore a LOT of things, there cannot be a reconciliation. > > There have been saints like Sant Kabir and Shirdi Sai Baba, who have demonstrated how to reconcile. > > Sai Baba broke the orthodox rules of both Hindusm and Islam. Nobody knew till the end whether he was a Hindu or a Muslim. He lived in a mosque and did namaz, but also maintained a continuous fire with him like Hindu yogis. He did that inside a mosque, which is considered blasphemous as Islam considers fire to be very inauspicious! He gave sublime interpretations of Qoran and also Bhagavad Gita and other Hindu scriptures. He never hesitated to tell a Hindu, " Allah will do good to you " or to tell a Muslim, " Ram will bless you " . Hindus and Muslims alike considered him their own and worshipped him. Even today, there is a specific ritual at his tomb in Shirdi, where Hindus stand on one side of the tomb and Muslims on the other and they worship him together, using their own methods. > > It was heartening to me when I saw it. I saw a ray of hope in the age of religious intolerance and fundamentalism and killing in the name of god. > > * * * > > > We have many religions and movements, most of them started by people of varying levels of self-realization, who taught guidelines that were quite helpful and relevant to the spiritual progress of people around them at their times. Just as raw grains remain fresh for a long time while cooked grains become stale fast, similarly uninterpreted and intangible essence of the teachings of scriptures remains fresh for a long time while interpreted, tangible and clear guidelines that are ready for digestion by followers become stale (irrelevant/ inapplicable) fast. Great teachers effectively cook the raw grains of scriptural essence using the heat of their wisdom and the water of their compassion and serve cooked food ready for consumption by people around them. > > When people stick to some irrelevant details and miss the essence, it can result in clashes and conflicts. The purpose of religion is to aid in finding god. Unfortunately, no universal thumbrules can be given for finding god. A good religion will not depend on a single text or person and will depend on a string of self-realized souls who re-interpret previous texts based on their realization from time to time. That is certainly true with sanatana dharma. > The last paragraph in the following post is quite relevant in this context. > > group//message/1601 > > Best regards, > Narasimha > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- > Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ homam > Do Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ tarpana > Spirituality: http://groups. / group/vedic- wisdom > Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro. home.comcast. net > Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAst rologer.org > Jyotish writings: http://groups. / group/JyotishWri tings > Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagan nath.org > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- > > - > " vedic_pathak " <vedic_pathak@ > > <> > Thursday, November 19, 2009 5:11 PM > Re: Poetry of Bulle Shah - Sufi > > Dear Rajarshi, > > Thanks for the information on Wajid Ali Shah. > > *** > >Islam considers Muhammed to be Insan-e-Kamil, the perfected man. If >that perfected man could not have a directed communion with Allah >ever, and needed a Gibril (Gabriel is Gibril in Arabic) as in >intermediary, > > Islaam in nutshell is The life of Prophet Muhammad and writings in Koran. That is the 'Patthar Ki Lakir' for all or most of them. so it may not be difficult to *mugup* what is written in one book. so i dont deny that Dr. Naik knows Koran well. > *** > I was told that Allah created beings- first Angel, then Shaytan (FIRE) and finally Man (from Earth element-taken as a best of creation). And then he asked Angel and Shaytan to Salute the Man which was obeyed by Angel but not by Shaytan. Shayatn then on started corrupting minds of Men by influencing them to pray to the statues (images - idolatary) and like wise getting them away from Allah. > > I may be little wrong in the above understanding. > > *** > > However, one who does Homa need for a deity need not worry >about these in the least. When a deity like Mahaganapati or >Chandika in present, nothing else will dare interfere. > > I was just joking when i said that we do fire rituals. it was a teasing remark. Fear ki to aisi ki taisi... > > *** > >The differences are so fundamental that unless one is ready to >whitewash and ignore a LOT of things, there cannot be a >reconciliation. > > You see my reply to Krishnendu about Fanatics and Blind *Faith*. when one keep faith in any one book/Man/idea, without understanding or thinking, the earth will have blood shed and reconciliation will only be a day dreaming. > > Thank God that Sanatana dharma is not the doctrain of a Single person or book or idea but a collective ocean where many rivers meet and merge. > > Best Regards, > > Utpal > > > > , rajarshi nandy <rajarshi14@. ..> wrote: > > > > Dear Utpal, > >  > > Even I have heard that there were Sufis  who were devoted to Krishna. Wajid Ali Shah - the nawab of Oudh was one such person. Vimalananda says he was a Kinnara who had incarnated on this plane. Quite possible. He used to go mad for love of Krishna and keep playing teh dance of Gopis for Krishna. Although he used to do his five times Namaz as well. There were other such Sufis too I have heard who were devoted to Krishna. > >  > > That is what Dr. Zakir highlighted. You say tree is God, men are God, hills are God, Sun, moon and everything is God while We say that everything is of Allah (God). > >  > > Trust Dr Naik when he is speaking on the Koran. Do not trust him when he speaks on anything else. He does know his Koran well. > >  > > Look at this logically. Islam considers Muhammed to be Insan-e-Kamil, the perfected man. If that perfected man could not have a directed communion with Allah ever, and needed a Gibril (Gabriel is Gibril in Arabic) as in intermediary, why should any other muslim ever have a direct connection with Allah? Therefore Islam forbids this idea. > >  > > There is one idea in Islam that *Shayatan* was created from the fire. > >  > > Actually as far as I know - I maybe wrong - Shaitan was an Angel, fallen by ego. The entities which live by fire as per Islam are called the Jinns. They are another class who mostly dwell in the smoke that comes from fire. They supposedly carry information from earth to the heavens and use fire as a tool for the same. > >  > > Often muslim tantriks and Islamic occult practitioner use Jinns for different purposes. I don't know what is the exact correspondence to Hindu terminologies for the entity called Jinn, but I know people who do actually use Jinns and work out so called miracles. Maybe they are something like spirits or beings of some astral plane. > >  > > However, one who does Homa need for a deity need not worry about these in the least. When a deity like Mahaganapati or Chandika in present, nothing else will dare interfere. > >  > > But the real reason why most muslims have an issue with fire is because in one Hadith it is mentioned prophet Muhammed disliked fire because it reminded him of Hellfire. Fire to them is a symbol of the final times where the sinners and the kufrs will be thrown by Allah into a huge fire. > >  > > sadly in the view of the people like Dr. Zakir Naik, they run 180 degree apart in different directions or actually they try to make it such that they never meet. > >  > > Hmm, I would beg to disagree. In my reading of Islam, Zakir Naik is correct. As I said he only lies and use half truths when it comes to other religion. For Islam he quotes correctly and wholesomely. The difference between Islam and non Islamic ideology - specially Hindus/Buddism/ Jainism etc is irreconcileable. An explanation for this maybe digressing and long. > >  > > But generally, if I were born in a muslim family, and were made to read teh Koran and Hadiths day in and day out and trust the Koran as the perfected word of God and Muhammed as the perfected man, one whose whole life was teh Koran in motion, I would consider Zakir Naik to be 100 % correct. The differences are so fundamental that unless one is ready to whitewash and ignore a LOT of things, there cannot be a reconciliation. > >  > > Remember, Aurnagzeb started memorizing the koran for 9 years. At the end of the nine years he started his temple demolishion campaign. > > > > > > It is no wonder that more than 90 percent of muslim youth, even those highly educated consider Zakir Naik to be a gift of Allah to the Ummah and the greatest 'scholar' of Islam and 'comparitive religions' alive on earth. I am speaking from personal interaction. > >  > > At some point I used to get very angry with muslims. Now I don't. I find them to be a victim more than any one, and a victim who is not even aware of the fact that he is a victim! A victim not of USA or Zionists or Hindus or anyone. A victim of the idea called Islam. > >  > > The above statement may seem controversial, but it is not a casual remark. > >  > > -Regards > >  Rajarshi > > > >  > >  > > > > > > > > > >  > > > > The upsurge (of consciousness) is Bhairava - Shiva Sutra > > > > --- On Thu, 19/11/09, vedic_pathak <vedic_pathak@ ...> wrote: > > > > > > vedic_pathak <vedic_pathak@ ...> > > Re: Poetry of Bulle Shah - Sufi > > > > Thursday, 19 November, 2009, 7:33 PM > > > > > >  > > > > > > > > Dear Rajarshi, > > > > Thank you for these informations on Sufis. But one information still needed about their Krishna Bhakti. were there any saints among Sufis who actually sang Bhajans in praise of Krishna? > > > > *** > > >Communion with God is an idea impossible is the Islam of Muhammed. >The creator is always seperate from the creation.Period. Anything >else is Kufr > > > > That is a right statement. > > That is what Dr. Zakir highlighted. You say tree is God, men are God, hills are God, Sun, moon and everything is God while We say that everything is of Allah (God). > > > > *** > > a different Note: > > > > one intresting point - There is one idea in Islam that *Shayatan* was created from the fire. > > > > We everyday do Fire worship ritual! > > > > Incidently one of my very good friends, who is Muslim is coming to my home with Family and will stay with me for a week. he'll see me doing Homam everyday. He and his wife knows about it. infact i've done many Chadi Paath recitations at his home and even my Maha Lakshmi vratam if it happened to be a friday. Whenever i visit their home, his wife sees to it that there is no Non veg food brought in his home. > > He'll offer his Namaz ritual at my home. so Homam and Namaz will go parallelly. This parallel of different rituals has a meeting point in both of our hearts. sadly in the view of the people like Dr. Zakir Naik, they run 180 degree apart in different directions or actually they try to make it such that they never meet. > > > > Best Regards, > > > > Utpal > > > > , rajarshi nandy <rajarshi14@ ...> wrote: > > > > > > > > > Dear Utpal, > > >  > > > If you are asking specifically about Bulle Shah, he was a Sufi saint of the 15th Century in area of modern Pakisthan. As you can well understand from his poetry, his realization was quite different from traditional Islamic learning. Bulle Shah was quite disliked by muslims of his time. He was a pacifist and a true saint. > > >  > > > Most people consider Sufism or Sufiana to be a branch of Islam. My personal view is different. In most of the poetry I have read of famous Sufi sants like JalÄ?l ad-DÄ«n Muḥammad BalkhÄ« Rumi convince me that their personal realization was quite different from Islamic doctrins. As such the roots of the Sufi philosphy like in pre Islamic Persian and India. The mystics of these areas, specially Persia, after it was over run by Islam, in order to protect their philosophy garbed it with Islamic terminologies and names. Otherwise they would have faced sure shot slaughter. That was a means of self preservation which in turn, over years, helped a lot of muslims in treading a more sublime path - IMHO - than that which comes from the Ahadiths and the Koran proper. > > >  > > > For example Rumi talks a about something similar to reincarnation in some of his poems while the following one does talk about communion with God: > > >  > > > I searched for God among the Christians and on the Cross and therein I found Him not. > > > I went into the ancient temples of idolatry; no trace of Him was there. > > > I entered the mountain cave of Hira and then went as far as Qandhar but God I found not. > > > With set purpose I fared to the summit of Mount Caucasus and found there only 'anqa's habitation. > > > Then I directed my search to the Kaaba, the resort of old and young; God was not there even. > > > Turning to philosophy I inquired about him from ibn Sina but found Him not within his range. > > > I fared then to the scene of the Prophet's experience of a great divine manifestation only a " two bow-lengths' distance from him " but God was not there even in that exalted court. > > > Finally, I looked into my own heart and there I saw Him; He was nowhere else. > > >  > > > Communion with God is an idea impossible is the Islam of Muhammed. The creator is always seperate from the creation.Period. Anything else is Kufr. Though in later verses Rumi did eulogize Muhammed and the Koran, my interpretation is that all that was an attempt at disguising Kufr with an Islamic garb. > > >  > > >  > > > The person who changed the life of Rumi was also another Sufi called Shams-e-Tabrizi. Vimalananda mentions a popular legend which says Shams was so powerful that he couild raise the dead. One day the mullas caught up with him and asked him to demonstrate. Shams went to a dead body and said, " In the name of Allah, wake up! " . But nothing happened. He tried a few times and yet nothing happened. Finally he said, " In my name, wake up! " and the dead body woke up. Immediate the Mulla caught him for doing Kufr - ideally you cannot invoke anyone for help other than Allah as per true Islam - and executed him. > > >  > > > Same was with case with Mansur-al-Hallaj who was executed for proclaiming Anal Haq which literally means I am the Truth. This statement is also considered Kufr as per traditional Islam. > > >  > > > Auliya Nizamuddin was another great Sufi who introduced Qwaalis in India. It is said he had advised the mother of Shivaji to worship lord Shiva for a son before Shivaji was born. > > >  > > > Generally, except for the famous Moinunddin Chisti of Ajmer, I have deep respect for most Sufis saint. > > >  > > > Though Sufis always showed a different more subjective interpretation of Koran, however the genuine Muslim scholars were never fooled. Most of them considered Sufis to be non Islamic. Even today. And I do not blame them. An honest reading of the Koran and the hadiths with tell you in no uncertain terms that the philosophy of Vedanta or any sort of God communion is unacceptable to Islam. I won't digress into my views of what ails Islam, but Sufis can be safely called unIslamic if a true, traditional and authentic version of Islam is to be followed. > > >  > > > BTW, Sufi ideas are quite famous in modern day cities where we find the fashionably spiritual higher middle class. But like most things under the sun, they hardly know anything about anything. > > >  > > > -Regards > > >  Rajarshi > > >  > > >  > > >  > > >  > > >  > > >  > > > > > >  > > > > > > The upsurge (of consciousness) is Bhairava - Shiva Sutra > > > > > > --- On Thu, 19/11/09, vedic_pathak <vedic_pathak@ ...> wrote: > > > > > > > > > vedic_pathak <vedic_pathak@ ...> > > > Re: Poetry of Bulle Shah - Sufi > > > > > > Thursday, 19 November, 2009, 5:21 PM > > > > > > > > >  > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Rajarshi, > > > > > > >Some years back this specific poem of Baba Bulle Shah - a sufi >mystic > > > > > > can you provid me knowledge of this Sufi sect. is it one of the branch from Islam?. I've come across some articles in the past which indicates that some of the Sufi saints were even Krishna Bhakta and have sang songs for praising Krishna in their sufi style. > > > > > > Warm Regards, > > > > > > Utpal > > > > > > , rajarshi nandy <rajarshi14@ ...> wrote: > > > > > > > > Hi Everyone, > > > > Ã, > > > > Some years back this specific poem of Baba Bulle Shah - a sufi mystic - was made into a very popular song in India. I just thought of sharing it again with the members here. > > > > Ã, > > > > The following poem of his is a classic. Purely self realized. > > > > First the translation and then the original for anyone who understands punjabi: > > > > Ã, > > > > Not a believer inside the mosque, am I > > > > Nor a pagan disciple of false rites > > > > Not the pure amongst the impure > > > > Neither Moses, nor the Pharoh > > > > > > > > Bulleh! to me, I am not known > > > > > > > > Not in the holy Vedas, am I > > > > Nor in opium, neither in wine > > > > Not in the drunkard`s craze > > > > Niether awake, nor in a sleeping daze > > > > > > > > Bulleh! to me, I am not known > > > > > > > > In happiness nor in sorrow, am I > > > > Neither clean, nor a filthy mire > > > > Not from water, nor from earth > > > > Neither fire, nor from air, is my birth > > > > > > > > Bulleh! to me, I am not known > > > > > > > > Not an Arab, nor Lahori > > > > Neither Hindi, nor Nagauri > > > > Hindu, Turk (Muslim), nor Peshawari > > > > Nor do I live in Nadaun > > > > > > > > Bulleh! to me, I am not known > > > > > > > > Secrets of religion, I have not known > > > > From Adam and Eve, I am not born > > > > I am not the name I assume > > > > Not in stillness, nor on the move > > > > > > > > Bulleh! to me, I am not known > > > > > > > > I am the first, I am the last > > > > None other, have I ever known > > > > I am the wisest of them all > > > > Bulleh! do I stand alone? > > > > > > > > Bulleh! to me, I am not known > > > > > > > > Orginal: > > > > Ã, > > > > Na maen momin vich maseet aan > > > > Na maen vich kufar diyan reet aan > > > > Na maen paakaan vich paleet aan > > > > Na maen moosa na pharaun. > > > > > > > > Bulleh! ki jaana maen kaun > > > > Ã, > > > > Na maen andar ved kitaab aan, > > > > Na vich bhangaan na sharaab aan > > > > Na vich rindaan masat kharaab aan > > > > Na vich jaagan na vich saun. > > > > > > > > Bulleh! ki jaana maen kaun. > > > > > > > > Na vich shaadi na ghamnaaki > > > > Na maen vich paleeti paaki > > > > Na maen aabi na maen khaki > > > > Na maen aatish na maen paun > > > > > > > > Bulleh!, ki jaana maen kaun > > > > > > > > Na maen arabi na lahori > > > > Na maen hindi shehar nagauri > > > > Na hindu na turak peshawri > > > > Na maen rehnda vich nadaun > > > > > > > > Bulla, ki jaana maen kaun > > > > > > > > Na maen bheth mazhab da paaya > > > > Ne maen aadam havva jaaya > > > > Na maen apna naam dharaaya > > > > Na vich baitthan na vich bhaun > > > > > > > > Bulleh , ki jaana maen kaun > > > > > > > > Avval aakhir aap nu jaana > > > > Na koi dooja hor pehchaana > > > > Maethon hor na koi siyaana > > > > Bulla! ooh khadda hai kaun > > > > > > > > Bulla, ki jaana maen kaun... > > > > Ã, > > > > Ã, > > > > Ã, > > > > Ã, > > > > Ã, > > > > -Regards > > > > Ã, Rajarshi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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