Guest guest Posted October 31, 2009 Report Share Posted October 31, 2009 Namaste, I am replying to the without revealing your identity, as this may be relevant/useful to some other people. I hope you won't mind. * * * Background for others: This gentleman had a telephone conversation with me a few days back. He is an advaitin. He was doing some rituals earlier. He happened to read " I Am That " book by Nisargadatta Maharaj, an adwaiti and a liberated master. In the weeks after reading that book, he had a series of mystical experiences that revealed one idea after another to him. Based on his experiences, he told me that all that we perceive is an illusion and even knowledge and ignorance are illusions. Is there a need to perform rituals and why? This whole thing is like a dream and why do we need to do specific things in what we know to be a dream? I mostly listened to what he was saying without saying anything, but said a few things at the end. He said that he sees everything for what it is during an experience, but back to normal at the end of it, e.g. worried about a sore throat and stuff like that. I told him that that state of not having fear or likes or dislikes has to be permanent and not a fleeting experience. I told him it is good to say duality is an illusion, but one needs to deal with it when one is immersed in that illusion most of the time. A fleeting experience of reality and immersion in the illusion again is not liberation. One needs to strive for a state when one is in that state all the time. To reach that state, it is necessary to pay back one's karmik debts in the field of duality. I told him that rituals like homam can be performed without an individual sankalpa, but just for the pleasure of the deity. Thus, one ends up giving something to the universe without considering whether and what one gets in return. That is conducive to freedom. He pondered on my words for a few days and replied. I will continue the discussion below with him on the list now. * * * Your question is a very important one and addressed by many scriptures such as Upanishads, Yoga Vaasishtham, Bhagavad Gita etc. Vasishtha taught in Yoga Vaasishtham that knowledge (understanding) and action are the two wings with which the bird of soul flies. It is not possible for one wing to reach the correct speed at once. As the wings are flapped, one wing will take off, the other will take off accordingly, the first wing gains more speed and so on. Eventually, when there is balance between the two wings, bird flies off. Perfect understanding and perfect actions do not come by themselves suddenly. Actions and understanding work together, balance each other and improve each other. One can start off with some understanding and engage in actions that imbibe that understanding. As one engages in more and more actions that are aligned with one's dharma, one's understanding becomes better and better. As one's understanding becomes better and better, it enables actions that are more and more aligned with one's dharma. Better understanding results in better actions and better actions result in better understanding. You cannot separate knowledge from actions. As I said, Vasishtha was very clear that knowledge and actions are two wings. Some modern adwaitins erroneously argue: " You are That. There is nothing to do. Even the notion that you are bound and you need to do something to become free is an illusion. You ARE That and you ARE free already. " They de-emphasize action. But Vasishtha was clear. As I showed in the other mail today, Sri Krishna also taught in Bhagavad Gita that some actions aimed at paying off one's karmik debts are quite necessary and should never be given up as long one is embodied. If you experience fear or anxiety or like or dislike or pain or other such things in the field of duality at any time, you are not really thinking like " That " . The meaning of being That is to be beyond such notions at *all* tismes. * * * Let me give very simple and yet apt analogy. If one is in a dream, there is no point in coming in the dream and telling one " this is just a dream. This is not your natural state. Wake up " . Merely asserting that to one in a dream will not wake one up from the dream! One will continue to be in the dream. Even if one thinks " this dream is not my real state. I am actually awake. What I perceive is wakefulness " , it will still be *in the dream*. One is merely awake *in the dream* and not really awake. In order to really wake up from the dream, some things need to happen in the dream. One can try to do some things in the dream that are likely to end the dream and wake one up. Thus, the notion that it is not real and merely a dream and hence there is no need to do anything is incorrect. Instead of doing stupid things and prolonging a dream, one can do the right things and wake up soon. Thus, engage in the right actions in the dream (that life in the field of duality is), to wake up to the reality (experience of Absolute at all times)! * * * As I mentioned in the other mail, constantly self-examine and contemplate. Remove all thoughts of self-gratification, pride and expectation from others from the mind. Catch such thoughts at the root and cut them off. Focus your energy on engaging in actions that *give* things to others and the universe, without any considerations of self-gratification and with complete oblivion to what you receive in return. Keep doing selfless actions without any expectations. Eventually, your understanding will become perfect and your actions will also become perfect. You will be free then. * * * Bottomline: Both understanding and actions are needed. Actions accompanied by correct understanding are the key. As actions become more perfect and detached, understanding becomes more perfect. As understanding becomes more perfect, actions become more perfect and detached. At the end, when actions and understanding become perfect, one becomes free. One then realizes that it was all actually grace. Best regards, Narasimha Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAstrologer.org/homam Spirituality writings: Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAstrologer.org Jyotish writings: JyotishWritings Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro.home.comcast.net Do Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAstrologer.org/tarpana ---- <deleted> wrote: > Dear Narasimha - > > How does one get rid of this finiteness ? Is it in understanding, actions, > effort or ultimately grace ? > > Please enlighten > > Regards, > > <deleted> > > On Fri, Oct 30, 2009 at 3:41 PM, Narasimha PVR Rao <pvr wrote: > > > Dear <deleted>, > > > > No need to apologize. In matters like this, one who takes offense is not > > worth apologizing to. One who has not taken offense, there is no need to > > apologize to that person. Either way, apology is irrelevant! > > > > Ego or I-ness is the driver all the time. Make it smaller and smaller. > > Reach a state when there is no fear or attraction or hatred for *anything* > > whatsoever at *any* time. It is good if such a thing happens at some times, > > but not good enough. When such an experience of absolute or nearness to > > absolute occurs temporarily, it can cause pride or false attachment to some > > things or even false detachment to some necessary things. However, the good > > thing is that such an experience also tells one what is possible. > > > > The goal is to be in that state at all times. Until that is achieved, so > > many karmas need to be performed by the ego. As I said, one has to finish > > off the karmas that one signed up for. As one pays off more and more of > > one's karmik debts, one becomes freer and freer. But, until one experiences > > absolute or nearness to absolute at all times, one is not finished here! > > > > The goal is to replace the finite personality with the Infinite. As long as > > the finite personality is present, even a fleeting experience of Infinite > > becomes a source of pride, i.e. gets finitized! Until the finite personality > > is replaced for ever by the Infinite, there is more to do. > > > > Thanks, > > Narasimha > > > > ---- <deleted> wrote: > > > Dear Narasimha - > > > > > > On introspection , its clear as you said that ego and I ness is central > > and > > > established. All these experiences are meaningless unless I-ness is > > > addressed. > > > > > > Your points really make me feel the experience itself is Iness hidden and > > is > > > actually an obstacle. I was completely wrong abt saguna bhakti and > > rituals. > > > All is parrallel and necssssary, for any experience is only a well full > > of > > > water of ego and pride. > > > > > > My apologies if i made any assertions out of ego/pride - with humility > > may > > > all this belong to the sadguru. For his blessing alone helps carry us > > beyond > > > the ocean of samsara. > > > > > > Blessed are guru putras who have sadgurus , blessed is one who got a > > master > > > dedicated more than himself to awaken him from dream. > > > > > > Prostrations at the feet of the master. > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > <deleted> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 3, 2009 Report Share Posted November 3, 2009 Sri Narasimha Garu, I think this is one of the most beautiful e-mails i have read from you, very very simple, clear and succinct. Please comment on my thoughts /questions as below: Ultimately we may realize that it is all the grace, but how do we ensure that we get to that state? I believe that the grace of a sadguru / deity can definitely change the equation to reach to that state. But, from most of my readings I get a feeling that unless you are at a particular spiritual level to receive the guidance you will not receive it. If someone is so deep with his bad karmas, he may not be in a position to think about god at all in this life. Will he never get any help at this lowest level so that he can make progress in the path? Is the free-will (to pray the god) is the only way that he can get to that level to receive some help? But with someone who is so deeply with bad karma’s can ever think about to exercise his free-will option to pray to god and be aware that he can get help at a later stage? Will he have to always suffer his bad karmas in this life without getting any help either in the form of a guru or any other form? If he is not getting that help how can he ever make progress in the spiritual path and realize that his mission is to realize god. Thanks KK--- On Sun, 11/1/09, Narasimha PVR Rao <pvr wrote: Narasimha PVR Rao <pvr Knowledge and Action Date: Sunday, November 1, 2009, 7:58 AM Namaste,I am replying to the without revealing your identity, as this may be relevant/useful to some other people. I hope you won't mind.* * *Background for others:This gentleman had a telephone conversation with me a few days back. He is an advaitin. He was doing some rituals earlier. He happened to read "I Am That" book by Nisargadatta Maharaj, an adwaiti and a liberated master. In the weeks after reading that book, he had a series of mystical experiences that revealed one idea after another to him. Based on his experiences, he told me that all that we perceive is an illusion and even knowledge and ignorance are illusions. Is there a need to perform rituals and why? This whole thing is like a dream and why do we need to do specific things in what we know to be a dream?I mostly listened to what he was saying without saying anything, but said a few things at the end. He said that he sees everything for what it is during an experience, but back to normal at the end of it, e.g. worried about a sore throat and stuff like that.I told him that that state of not having fear or likes or dislikes has to be permanent and not a fleeting experience. I told him it is good to say duality is an illusion, but one needs to deal with it when one is immersed in that illusion most of the time. A fleeting experience of reality and immersion in the illusion again is not liberation. One needs to strive for a state when one is in that state all the time. To reach that state, it is necessary to pay back one's karmik debts in the field of duality.I told him that rituals like homam can be performed without an individual sankalpa, but just for the pleasure of the deity. Thus, one ends up giving something to the universe without considering whether and what one gets in return. That is conducive to freedom.He pondered on my words for a few days and replied. I will continue the discussion below with him on the list now.* * *Your question is a very important one and addressed by many scriptures such as Upanishads, Yoga Vaasishtham, Bhagavad Gita etc.Vasishtha taught in Yoga Vaasishtham that knowledge (understanding) and action are the two wings with which the bird of soul flies. It is not possible for one wing to reach the correct speed at once. As the wings are flapped, one wing will take off, the other will take off accordingly, the first wing gains more speed and so on. Eventually, when there is balance between the two wings, bird flies off.Perfect understanding and perfect actions do not come by themselves suddenly. Actions and understanding work together, balance each other and improve each other.One can start off with some understanding and engage in actions that imbibe that understanding. As one engages in more and more actions that are aligned with one's dharma, one's understanding becomes better and better. As one's understanding becomes better and better, it enables actions that are more and more aligned with one's dharma. Better understanding results in better actions and better actions result in better understanding. You cannot separate knowledge from actions. As I said, Vasishtha was very clear that knowledge and actions are two wings. Some modern adwaitins erroneously argue: "You are That. There is nothing to do. Even the notion that you are bound and you need to do something to become free is an illusion. You ARE That and you ARE free already." They de-emphasize action. But Vasishtha was clear. As I showed in the other mail today, Sri Krishna also taught in Bhagavad Gita that some actions aimed at paying off one's karmik debts are quite necessary and should never be given up as long one is embodied.If you experience fear or anxiety or like or dislike or pain or other such things in the field of duality at any time, you are not really thinking like "That". The meaning of being That is to be beyond such notions at *all* tismes.* * *Let me give very simple and yet apt analogy.If one is in a dream, there is no point in coming in the dream and telling one "this is just a dream. This is not your natural state. Wake up". Merely asserting that to one in a dream will not wake one up from the dream! One will continue to be in the dream. Even if one thinks "this dream is not my real state. I am actually awake. What I perceive is wakefulness" , it will still be *in the dream*. One is merely awake *in the dream* and not really awake.In order to really wake up from the dream, some things need to happen in the dream. One can try to do some things in the dream that are likely to end the dream and wake one up. Thus, the notion that it is not real and merely a dream and hence there is no need to do anything is incorrect. Instead of doing stupid things and prolonging a dream, one can do the right things and wake up soon.Thus, engage in the right actions in the dream (that life in the field of duality is), to wake up to the reality (experience of Absolute at all times)!* * *As I mentioned in the other mail, constantly self-examine and contemplate. Remove all thoughts of self-gratification, pride and expectation from others from the mind. Catch such thoughts at the root and cut them off. Focus your energy on engaging in actions that *give* things to others and the universe, without any considerations of self-gratification and with complete oblivion to what you receive in return. Keep doing selfless actions without any expectations. Eventually, your understanding will become perfect and your actions will also become perfect. You will be free then.* * *Bottomline: Both understanding and actions are needed. Actions accompanied by correct understanding are the key. As actions become more perfect and detached, understanding becomes more perfect. As understanding becomes more perfect, actions become more perfect and detached. At the end, when actions and understanding become perfect, one becomes free. One then realizes that it was all actually grace.Best regards,Narasimha------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ homamSpirituality writings: http://groups. / group/vedic- wisdomFree Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAst rologer.orgJyotish writings: http://groups. / group/JyotishWri tingsFree Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro. home.comcast. netDo Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ tarpana------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- ----- <deleted> wrote: > Dear Narasimha -> > How does one get rid of this finiteness ? Is it in understanding, actions,> effort or ultimately grace ?> > Please enlighten> > Regards,> > <deleted>> > On Fri, Oct 30, 2009 at 3:41 PM, Narasimha PVR Rao <pvr (AT) charter (DOT) net> wrote:> > > Dear <deleted>,> >> > No need to apologize. In matters like this, one who takes offense is not> > worth apologizing to. One who has not taken offense, there is no need to> > apologize to that person. Either way, apology is irrelevant!> >> > Ego or I-ness is the driver all the time. Make it smaller and smaller.> > Reach a state when there is no fear or attraction or hatred for *anything*> > whatsoever at *any* time. It is good if such a thing happens at some times,> > but not good enough. When such an experience of absolute or nearness to> > absolute occurs temporarily, it can cause pride or false attachment to some> > things or even false detachment to some necessary things. However, the good> > thing is that such an experience also tells one what is possible.> >> > The goal is to be in that state at all times. Until that is achieved, so> > many karmas need to be performed by the ego. As I said, one has to finish> > off the karmas that one signed up for. As one pays off more and more of> > one's karmik debts, one becomes freer and freer. But, until one experiences> > absolute or nearness to absolute at all times, one is not finished here!> >> > The goal is to replace the finite personality with the Infinite. As long as> > the finite personality is present, even a fleeting experience of Infinite> > becomes a source of pride, i.e. gets finitized! Until the finite personality> > is replaced for ever by the Infinite, there is more to do.> >> > Thanks,> > Narasimha> >> > ---- <deleted> wrote:> > > Dear Narasimha -> > >> > > On introspection , its clear as you said that ego and I ness is central> > and> > > established. All these experiences are meaningless unless I-ness is> > > addressed.> > >> > > Your points really make me feel the experience itself is Iness hidden and> > is> > > actually an obstacle. I was completely wrong abt saguna bhakti and> > rituals.> > > All is parrallel and necssssary, for any experience is only a well full> > of> > > water of ego and pride.> > >> > > My apologies if i made any assertions out of ego/pride - with humility> > may> > > all this belong to the sadguru. For his blessing alone helps carry us> > beyond> > > the ocean of samsara.> > >> > > Blessed are guru putras who have sadgurus , blessed is one who got a> > master> > > dedicated more than himself to awaken him from dream.> > >> > > Prostrations at the feet of the master.> > >> > > Regards,> > >> > > <deleted> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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