Guest guest Posted September 29, 2009 Report Share Posted September 29, 2009 Namaste Sundeep and Rajarshi, Yes, Pt Rath's astrology book " Brihat Nakshatra " gives a different order of creation starting with water and ending with the pair of ether and earth. It seems to be his extrapolation. What you quoted from Taittariya Upanishad is the traditional view that I am familiar with. Other scriptures refer to the same order of creation, including " Yoga Vaasishtham " , where Maharshi Vasishtha teaches creation, destruction and liberation to Lord Rama. * * * This Upanishadic understanding is also consistent with chakra based understanding of Tantra. The five chakras downwards from Visuddhi chakra to Moolaadhaara chakra represent ether, air, fire, water and earth. When Kundalini leaves Moolaadhaara, earth element within one is surrendered, i.e. all traces of earth element are effaced in one's self-awareness. When Kundalini leaves Swaadhishthaana, water element within one is surrendered, i.e. all traces of water element are effaced in one's self-awareness. And so on. By earth and water etc, don't just think of physical earth and physical water etc. Earth element shows a solid state of existence. Water element shows a flexible and fluid state of existence. For example, an idea that one " owns " a particular thing (e.g. a car, a house, spouse, some knowledge etc) is of solid state and made of earth element. An idea that one " needs " a particular thing (e.g. a car, a house, spouse, some knowledge etc) is of the nature of water element. Thus, different mental concepts and ideas can be mapped to the five elements. When one thinks of " I " , one perhaps thinks of a body that looks and feels in a particular way physically. Apart from the physical aspect, one may think of " I " as someone who has certain qualities, certain needs, certain belongings etc. All those concepts one has about who one is, form one's self-awareness and Kundalini represents that self-awareness. Kundalini cannot leave Moolaadhaara chakra, if *anything* that is *solid* in nature within one's cumulative idea of who one is is still remaining. Kundalini cannot leave Swaadhishthaana chakra, if *anything* that is *solid* or *fluid* in nature within one's cumulative idea of who one is is still remaining. And so on. Many people who talk about experiences of Kundalini in higher chakras are often talking merely about some amount of vaayus flowing in those chakras (which may still be a nice experience) and have *not* experienced Kundalini actually being there. IF Kundalini really leaves Moolaadhaara, one will not perceive a solid body, one will not have notions of owning anything. Similarly, as Kundalini moves up each chakra, each element is effaced in one's cumulative idea of who one is, at the physical as well as the subtle level of existence! To completely efface even one element (earth) from one's notion of self ( " I " ), even for a short duration of time, is not at all easy. The order in which elements are effaced as one progresses towards samadhi is - earth, water, fire, air and ether. If Kundalini again comes down, effaced elements return to work in the reverse order - ether, air, fire, water and earth. * * * Regarding physics and spiritual realities: > Does physics describe reality? Physics tries to describe/model reality at the gross physical level, as perceived by the external senses. However, one's mind can " perceive " things without the external senses playing a role. As a simple example, one may be asleep and get a dream, in which one's mind may " see " some people and " hear " a conversation between them. In another example, a yogi may be meditating with a mantra with intense focus and " see " some scenes and/or " hear " some things. These things cannot be perceived by the external senses and hence cannot be studied by modern science. It is reasonable to define reality as something that can be perceived by the external senses, because different people can experience the same reality using their senses individually and verify the observation. However, some experiences of the mind that cannot be perceived by senses are sometimes very powerful and have a huge, life-altering and sometimes liberating influence on people. Inability to study and model them is a big drawback of modern science. * * * One may categorize dreams and internal yogic experiences as imaginations or hallucinations, because there is no independent validation, and call them unworthy of a study. But there are cases that make one wonder. For example, see the following messages from the archives. Mystical experiences of mind and mantras (message 951) /message/951 In the above message, one person had a specific yogic experience that was described in detail and another person seemed to know about it and supplied one tangible detail relating to the experience, suggesting that he too " observed " the experience of the first person, though it was beyond the external senses of either person! Re: Guru (message 391) /message/391 In the above message also, one person had a specific yogic experience that was described in detail and another person seemed to know about it and supplied a couple of tangible details relating to the experience, suggesting that he too " observed " the experience of the first person, though it was beyond the external senses of either person! Internal god and external god (message 2498) /message/2498 In the above message, one person had a specific yogic experience involving a deity and another person perceived with his external senses a vision involving the same deity, though others in the room could not perceive anything with their external senses, suggesting that the second person " observed " the experience of the first person through a specific prism. * * * Such examples cannot prove much, but they do suggest that perhaps *some* experiences that cannot be measured or perceived by the external senses are observable by others, though not everyone may be able to observe. Then, one cannot rule out the possibility of *some* experiences that cannot be measured or perceived by the external senses being a part of the " reality " that mind can access. But, how can modern science study it? Because the only thing that can be studied and measured is the reality involving the gross body and its senses, one may suggest that experiences of the subtle body may be studied by observing various parts of the gross physical body. For example, one can look at the nervous signals flowing through various parts of the brain and try to correlate them with the experiences of the subtle body. On the surface, it sounds like a great idea. But, it assumes that subtle body and causal body are redundant. Though there is some correspondence between what happens in the causal, subtle and gross bodies, it is a many-to-many mapping and NOT a one-to-one mapping, in which case the concept of causal and subtle bodies would be redundant, i.e. whatever they model can be moderled using just the gross body! If you drive through a neighborhood and observe the houses from the road, you can have *some* idea of what is going on. A particular house with a lot of lights and sound and many cars parked outside may be having a party. People in one particular house with no lights are probably out of town. But you can never be sure what is going on in the house, how many people are inside, what exactly they are doing etc, by merely looking at the house from outside. Similarly, by looking at the nervous signals in various points of the brain, you may be able to see some basic things, but not much. The experiences of the subtle mind are beyond your reach and study, if your tools are limited to the gross physical domain. * * * Unfortunately, modern science cannot study that part of the reality which is beyond the scope of external senses, unless scientists become yogis and develop mastery of the internal world. While rishis of ancient times had mastery of the internal world (which is the microcosm of the entire universe) and could observe any space-time point, even the greatest yogis of today cannot control their state completely. When Kundalini rises, it may go somewhere and one may experience some part of the Infinite Reality. But one cannot control exactly where Kundalini goes and exactly which part of the Infinite Reality one observes. Rishis seemed to have a perfect control. Best regards, Narasimha Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAstrologer.org/homam Do Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAstrologer.org/tarpana Spirituality: Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro.home.comcast.net Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAstrologer.org Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagannath.org ---- rajarshi nandy <rajarshi14 wrote: > Sorry the previous mail went off incomplete. > > Dear Sundeep, > > Let me mention some stuff from the diaries of Sri Shamacharun Lahiri (a self realized Yogi of the highest order) - it maybe of some help to you. He did mention in details about the process of creation as he saw it. > > As per him, at the beginning was the point of ultimate chaos. Then from there came the " vidhyut " of Akash. As this " Vidyut " interacted with the chaos, it produced some universal energies which are more commonly known as the universal deities like Shiva, Vishnu etc etc. Then came the " Vidyut " of vayu ( none of these are the actual physical elements as we see it, but more the essence of the element, hence his use of the word " vidyut " and " taranga " ) whose interaction with the chaos resulted in some more energy states. Thus, in this way came, Agni, Apa and Prithwi, each one resulting from the previous and each one resulting in some energy states, which in the end resulted in 33 crore possible states of energy. > > There is some lesson in there (at least for me), and I want to get at it.. I feel there may be some correlation between that and the 11-dimensional physics of super string theory too, but I get ahead of myself.. > > This is a nice idea and I would like to know more about it. > > As much as I could fathom (I am no physicist, neither do I have the ability to penetrate the mathematics of the M-Theory), as it stands now, it is quite half formed. There being multiple theories of the String variety, adhered to by multiple physicists, the M-Theory (11 dimensional one) is one of the many which 'claim to explain' in parts some aspects of the physical world. Finding a correlation between this and the idea of the five elements, in my humble opinion, is still far fetched. I can understand some correlation between basic Quantum Mechanics, (at least the Copenhegan Interpretation), non-locality etc, and the ideas of Indian mysticism, but a link between M-theory of panch-mahabhuta?!.. > > Well, with the kind permission of Narasimha, I would like to know more about how exactly you can link these two, because I myself with my limited understand fail to see any viable correlation at all as of now, specially, since the M-theory is yet in a very nascent stage. > > The other thing one must think about is the basic nature of theoritical physics. Does physics describe reality? Or does it provide a model of reality? These two are different. Mathematics provides a tool/model to gauge reality. It need not be exactly as reality is. > Which is why Richard Feynman once famously quoted that everyone knows that Quatum Mechanics works, but no one know what it really is! > > The idea of the pach mahabhuta and creation is almost the essence of everything. The day physics gets THAT deep, there would be really nothing more left to do. Physics is still quite far away from that stage. > > -Regards > Rajarshi > > --- On Tue, 29/9/09, vedicastrostudent <vedicastrostudent wrote: > > Dear Rajarshi, > > Not sure if I get the thrust of your point. Yes, sadhana is the only way to know this for sure. And so also for everything else that is below the reach of the senses (e.g. Atma, sookshma sarira etc). But we do read about them (all these things e.g Atma etc), and about the significance of the vedic gods anyway, dont we? They do offer a mild complement to sadhana, dont they? They do help make the mind more receptive toward the benefits of sadhana.. > > Also wanted to assure you that I really want to know the answer to the question. I am not interested in a he-said/she- said type game (if perhaps that is what you were hinting at?). I am extremely curious as to why there is an order and not a parallelism, for e.g. why are the mahabhutas not simultaneously formed. There is some lesson in there (at least for me), and I want to get at it.. I feel there may be some correlation between that and the 11-dimensional physics of super string theory too, but I get ahead of myself.. > > Regards, > > Sundeep > > , rajarshi nandy <rajarshi14@ ...> wrote: > > > > Dear Sundeep, > > > > With all due respect to your query, I wanted to ask, how does it matter? Can anyone here really know for sure which came after which? We can only speculate and guess and retrofit logic and quote one scripture vs another scripture. > > > > Only practical way to really find out the truth is sadhana. That too if we are destined to find out we will, or else no. > > > > -Regards > > Rajarshi > > > > The upsurge (of consciousness) is Bhairava - Shiva Sutra > > > > --- On Tue, 29/9/09, vedicastrostudent <vedicastrostudent@ ...> wrote: > > > > vedicastrostudent <vedicastrostudent@ ...> > > Order of Creation (of mahabhuta/tattwa) ? > > > > Tuesday, 29 September, 2009, 1:12 AM > > > > Dear Narasimhaji and others, > > > > In Taittiriya Upanishad (http://www.sacred- texts.com/ hin/sbe15/ sbe15034. htm), the following is the order of creation (Max Mueller interpretation) : > > > > " From that Self 2 (Brahman) sprang ether (âkâsa, that through which we hear); from ether air (that through which we hear and feel); from air fire (that through which we hear, feel, and see); from fire water (that through which we hear, feel, see, and taste); from water earth (that through which we hear, feel, see, taste, and smell) " > > > > This sounds logical to me in that I expected Akasa to be first and earth to be last. I have heard differing opinions though, perhaps in Sanjay Rathji's Brhat Nakshtra but since I dont have the book in front of me, I cant confirm. Do you agree with the interpretation above, if not what is your belief, source and justification? > > > > Thank you, > > > > Sundeep Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 30, 2009 Report Share Posted September 30, 2009 || OM TAT SAT || Dear Narasimha, You mentioned 5 tattwas, while there are 6 tattwas - that are associated with the 6 cerebro-spinal chakras - a result of all possible combination of 3 gunas of nature. Gunas Tattwa Chakras Satvic Tamas - SuperEther - Medulla Satvic Satva - Ether (Aakash tattwa) - Throat Satvic Rajas - Air (Vayu tattwa) - Heart Rajasic Rajas - Fire (Agni tattwa) - Navel Rajasic Tamas - Water (Jala tattwa) - Sacral Tamasic Tamas - Earth (Prithvi tattwa) - Coccygeal SuperEther 1. All pervading Prana from which Aakash tattwa is created - refer RajaYoga of Vivekananda. 2. Background of Aakash tattwa - Refer Gita Commentary of Yogananda It is the starting point if one begins to discuss about Creation in any sense... Your comments. Regards, Nitish , Narasimha PVR Rao <pvr wrote: > > Namaste Sundeep and Rajarshi, > > Yes, Pt Rath's astrology book " Brihat Nakshatra " gives a different order of creation starting with water and ending with the pair of ether and earth. It seems to be his extrapolation. > > What you quoted from Taittariya Upanishad is the traditional view that I am familiar with. Other scriptures refer to the same order of creation, including " Yoga Vaasishtham " , where Maharshi Vasishtha teaches creation, destruction and liberation to Lord Rama. > > * * * > > This Upanishadic understanding is also consistent with chakra based understanding of Tantra. The five chakras downwards from Visuddhi chakra to Moolaadhaara chakra represent ether, air, fire, water and earth. When Kundalini leaves Moolaadhaara, earth element within one is surrendered, i.e. all traces of earth element are effaced in one's self-awareness. When Kundalini leaves Swaadhishthaana, water element within one is surrendered, i.e. all traces of water element are effaced in one's self-awareness. And so on. > > By earth and water etc, don't just think of physical earth and physical water etc. Earth element shows a solid state of existence. Water element shows a flexible and fluid state of existence. For example, an idea that one " owns " a particular thing (e.g. a car, a house, spouse, some knowledge etc) is of solid state and made of earth element. An idea that one " needs " a particular thing (e.g. a car, a house, spouse, some knowledge etc) is of the nature of water element. Thus, different mental concepts and ideas can be mapped to the five elements. > > When one thinks of " I " , one perhaps thinks of a body that looks and feels in a particular way physically. Apart from the physical aspect, one may think of " I " as someone who has certain qualities, certain needs, certain belongings etc. All those concepts one has about who one is, form one's self-awareness and Kundalini represents that self-awareness. Kundalini cannot leave Moolaadhaara chakra, if *anything* that is *solid* in nature within one's cumulative idea of who one is is still remaining. Kundalini cannot leave Swaadhishthaana chakra, if *anything* that is *solid* or *fluid* in nature within one's cumulative idea of who one is is still remaining. And so on. > > Many people who talk about experiences of Kundalini in higher chakras are often talking merely about some amount of vaayus flowing in those chakras (which may still be a nice experience) and have *not* experienced Kundalini actually being there. IF Kundalini really leaves Moolaadhaara, one will not perceive a solid body, one will not have notions of owning anything. Similarly, as Kundalini moves up each chakra, each element is effaced in one's cumulative idea of who one is, at the physical as well as the subtle level of existence! To completely efface even one element (earth) from one's notion of self ( " I " ), even for a short duration of time, is not at all easy. > > The order in which elements are effaced as one progresses towards samadhi is - earth, water, fire, air and ether. If Kundalini again comes down, effaced elements return to work in the reverse order - ether, air, fire, water and earth. > > * * * > > Regarding physics and spiritual realities: > > > Does physics describe reality? > > Physics tries to describe/model reality at the gross physical level, as perceived by the external senses. However, one's mind can " perceive " things without the external senses playing a role. > > As a simple example, one may be asleep and get a dream, in which one's mind may " see " some people and " hear " a conversation between them. In another example, a yogi may be meditating with a mantra with intense focus and " see " some scenes and/or " hear " some things. These things cannot be perceived by the external senses and hence cannot be studied by modern science. > > It is reasonable to define reality as something that can be perceived by the external senses, because different people can experience the same reality using their senses individually and verify the observation. However, some experiences of the mind that cannot be perceived by senses are sometimes very powerful and have a huge, life-altering and sometimes liberating influence on people. Inability to study and model them is a big drawback of modern science. > > * * * > > One may categorize dreams and internal yogic experiences as imaginations or hallucinations, because there is no independent validation, and call them unworthy of a study. But there are cases that make one wonder. For example, see the following messages from the archives. > > Mystical experiences of mind and mantras (message 951) > /message/951 > > In the above message, one person had a specific yogic experience that was described in detail and another person seemed to know about it and supplied one tangible detail relating to the experience, suggesting that he too " observed " the experience of the first person, though it was beyond the external senses of either person! > > Re: Guru (message 391) > /message/391 > > In the above message also, one person had a specific yogic experience that was described in detail and another person seemed to know about it and supplied a couple of tangible details relating to the experience, suggesting that he too " observed " the experience of the first person, though it was beyond the external senses of either person! > > Internal god and external god (message 2498) > /message/2498 > > In the above message, one person had a specific yogic experience involving a deity and another person perceived with his external senses a vision involving the same deity, though others in the room could not perceive anything with their external senses, suggesting that the second person " observed " the experience of the first person through a specific prism. > > * * * > > Such examples cannot prove much, but they do suggest that perhaps *some* experiences that cannot be measured or perceived by the external senses are observable by others, though not everyone may be able to observe. Then, one cannot rule out the possibility of *some* experiences that cannot be measured or perceived by the external senses being a part of the " reality " that mind can access. > > But, how can modern science study it? > > Because the only thing that can be studied and measured is the reality involving the gross body and its senses, one may suggest that experiences of the subtle body may be studied by observing various parts of the gross physical body. For example, one can look at the nervous signals flowing through various parts of the brain and try to correlate them with the experiences of the subtle body. > > On the surface, it sounds like a great idea. But, it assumes that subtle body and causal body are redundant. Though there is some correspondence between what happens in the causal, subtle and gross bodies, it is a many-to-many mapping and NOT a one-to-one mapping, in which case the concept of causal and subtle bodies would be redundant, i.e. whatever they model can be moderled using just the gross body! > > If you drive through a neighborhood and observe the houses from the road, you can have *some* idea of what is going on. A particular house with a lot of lights and sound and many cars parked outside may be having a party. People in one particular house with no lights are probably out of town. But you can never be sure what is going on in the house, how many people are inside, what exactly they are doing etc, by merely looking at the house from outside. > > Similarly, by looking at the nervous signals in various points of the brain, you may be able to see some basic things, but not much. The experiences of the subtle mind are beyond your reach and study, if your tools are limited to the gross physical domain. > > * * * > > Unfortunately, modern science cannot study that part of the reality which is beyond the scope of external senses, unless scientists become yogis and develop mastery of the internal world. > > While rishis of ancient times had mastery of the internal world (which is the microcosm of the entire universe) and could observe any space-time point, even the greatest yogis of today cannot control their state completely. When Kundalini rises, it may go somewhere and one may experience some part of the Infinite Reality. But one cannot control exactly where Kundalini goes and exactly which part of the Infinite Reality one observes. Rishis seemed to have a perfect control. > > Best regards, > Narasimha > > Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAstrologer.org/homam > Do Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAstrologer.org/tarpana > Spirituality: > Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro.home.comcast.net > Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAstrologer.org > Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagannath.org > > > ---- rajarshi nandy <rajarshi14 wrote: > > Sorry the previous mail went off incomplete. > > > > Dear Sundeep, > > > > Let me mention some stuff from the diaries of Sri Shamacharun Lahiri (a self realized Yogi of the highest order) - it maybe of some help to you. He did mention in details about the process of creation as he saw it. > > > > As per him, at the beginning was the point of ultimate chaos. Then from there came the " vidhyut " of Akash. As this " Vidyut " interacted with the chaos, it produced some universal energies which are more commonly known as the universal deities like Shiva, Vishnu etc etc. Then came the " Vidyut " of vayu ( none of these are the actual physical elements as we see it, but more the essence of the element, hence his use of the word " vidyut " and " taranga " ) whose interaction with the chaos resulted in some more energy states. Thus, in this way came, Agni, Apa and Prithwi, each one resulting from the previous and each one resulting in some energy states, which in the end resulted in 33 crore possible states of energy. > > > > There is some lesson in there (at least for me), and I want to get at it.. I feel there may be some correlation between that and the 11-dimensional physics of super string theory too, but I get ahead of myself.. > > > > This is a nice idea and I would like to know more about it. > > > > As much as I could fathom (I am no physicist, neither do I have the ability to penetrate the mathematics of the M-Theory), as it stands now, it is quite half formed. There being multiple theories of the String variety, adhered to by multiple physicists, the M-Theory (11 dimensional one) is one of the many which 'claim to explain' in parts some aspects of the physical world. Finding a correlation between this and the idea of the five elements, in my humble opinion, is still far fetched. I can understand some correlation between basic Quantum Mechanics, (at least the Copenhegan Interpretation), non-locality etc, and the ideas of Indian mysticism, but a link between M-theory of panch-mahabhuta?!.. > > > > Well, with the kind permission of Narasimha, I would like to know more about how exactly you can link these two, because I myself with my limited understand fail to see any viable correlation at all as of now, specially, since the M-theory is yet in a very nascent stage. > > > > The other thing one must think about is the basic nature of theoritical physics. Does physics describe reality? Or does it provide a model of reality? These two are different. Mathematics provides a tool/model to gauge reality. It need not be exactly as reality is. > > Which is why Richard Feynman once famously quoted that everyone knows that Quatum Mechanics works, but no one know what it really is! > > > > The idea of the pach mahabhuta and creation is almost the essence of everything. The day physics gets THAT deep, there would be really nothing more left to do. Physics is still quite far away from that stage. > > > > -Regards > > Rajarshi > > > > --- On Tue, 29/9/09, vedicastrostudent <vedicastrostudent wrote: > > > > Dear Rajarshi, > > > > Not sure if I get the thrust of your point. Yes, sadhana is the only way to know this for sure. And so also for everything else that is below the reach of the senses (e.g. Atma, sookshma sarira etc). But we do read about them (all these things e.g Atma etc), and about the significance of the vedic gods anyway, dont we? They do offer a mild complement to sadhana, dont they? They do help make the mind more receptive toward the benefits of sadhana.. > > > > Also wanted to assure you that I really want to know the answer to the question. I am not interested in a he-said/she- said type game (if perhaps that is what you were hinting at?). I am extremely curious as to why there is an order and not a parallelism, for e.g. why are the mahabhutas not simultaneously formed. There is some lesson in there (at least for me), and I want to get at it.. I feel there may be some correlation between that and the 11-dimensional physics of super string theory too, but I get ahead of myself.. > > > > Regards, > > > > Sundeep > > > > , rajarshi nandy <rajarshi14@ ...> wrote: > > > > > > Dear Sundeep, > > > > > > With all due respect to your query, I wanted to ask, how does it matter? Can anyone here really know for sure which came after which? We can only speculate and guess and retrofit logic and quote one scripture vs another scripture. > > > > > > Only practical way to really find out the truth is sadhana. That too if we are destined to find out we will, or else no. > > > > > > -Regards > > > Rajarshi > > > > > > The upsurge (of consciousness) is Bhairava - Shiva Sutra > > > > > > --- On Tue, 29/9/09, vedicastrostudent <vedicastrostudent@ ...> wrote: > > > > > > vedicastrostudent <vedicastrostudent@ ...> > > > Order of Creation (of mahabhuta/tattwa) ? > > > > > > Tuesday, 29 September, 2009, 1:12 AM > > > > > > Dear Narasimhaji and others, > > > > > > In Taittiriya Upanishad (http://www.sacred- texts.com/ hin/sbe15/ sbe15034. htm), the following is the order of creation (Max Mueller interpretation) : > > > > > > " From that Self 2 (Brahman) sprang ether (âkâsa, that through which we hear); from ether air (that through which we hear and feel); from air fire (that through which we hear, feel, and see); from fire water (that through which we hear, feel, see, and taste); from water earth (that through which we hear, feel, see, taste, and smell) " > > > > > > This sounds logical to me in that I expected Akasa to be first and earth to be last. I have heard differing opinions though, perhaps in Sanjay Rathji's Brhat Nakshtra but since I dont have the book in front of me, I cant confirm. Do you agree with the interpretation above, if not what is your belief, source and justification? > > > > > > Thank you, > > > > > > Sundeep > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 30, 2009 Report Share Posted September 30, 2009 Namaste, I am only addressing the five elements mentioned in upanishads. In Sahasrara chakra lies undifferentiated consciousness (Brahman or Aatman), where there are no I-ness or any objectification. Just below it, there are several lokas that people do not mention normally. In Aajnaa chakra lies the primordial state of the universe where there is just space and time, but no five elements. From visuddhi chakra to moolaadhaara chakra lie the elements of ether, air, fire, water and earth as I mentioned. I only focused on the last five stages. What happens between Sahasrara and Aajnaa is known only to greatest of seers. It is true that several yogis can be established in Sahasrara, where there is no ego and no objectification. However, very very very few can understand what happens in the chakras just below Sahasrara and above Aajnaa, where there is still I-ness and objectification, but at a very very high level that is beyond the play of elements. There is a lot more happening between Sahasrara and Aajnaa than elsewhere, but we are not well-equipped to understand it... Best regards, Narasimha Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAstrologer.org/homam Do Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAstrologer.org/tarpana Spirituality: Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro.home.comcast.net Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAstrologer.org Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagannath.org ---- yeeahoo_99 <nitish.arya wrote: > || OM TAT SAT || > Dear Narasimha, > You mentioned 5 tattwas, while there are 6 tattwas - that are associated with the 6 cerebro-spinal chakras - a result of all possible combination of 3 gunas of nature. > > Gunas Tattwa Chakras > > Satvic Tamas - SuperEther - Medulla > Satvic Satva - Ether (Aakash tattwa) - Throat > Satvic Rajas - Air (Vayu tattwa) - Heart > Rajasic Rajas - Fire (Agni tattwa) - Navel > Rajasic Tamas - Water (Jala tattwa) - Sacral > Tamasic Tamas - Earth (Prithvi tattwa) - Coccygeal > > SuperEther > 1. All pervading Prana from which Aakash tattwa is created - refer RajaYoga of Vivekananda. > 2. Background of Aakash tattwa - Refer Gita Commentary of Yogananda > > It is the starting point if one begins to discuss about Creation in any sense... > Your comments. > Regards, > Nitish > > , Narasimha PVR Rao <pvr wrote: > > > > Namaste Sundeep and Rajarshi, > > > > Yes, Pt Rath's astrology book " Brihat Nakshatra " gives a different order of creation starting with water and ending with the pair of ether and earth. It seems to be his extrapolation. > > > > What you quoted from Taittariya Upanishad is the traditional view that I am familiar with. Other scriptures refer to the same order of creation, including " Yoga Vaasishtham " , where Maharshi Vasishtha teaches creation, destruction and liberation to Lord Rama. > > > > * * * > > > > This Upanishadic understanding is also consistent with chakra based understanding of Tantra. The five chakras downwards from Visuddhi chakra to Moolaadhaara chakra represent ether, air, fire, water and earth. When Kundalini leaves Moolaadhaara, earth element within one is surrendered, i.e. all traces of earth element are effaced in one's self-awareness. When Kundalini leaves Swaadhishthaana, water element within one is surrendered, i.e. all traces of water element are effaced in one's self-awareness. And so on. > > > > By earth and water etc, don't just think of physical earth and physical water etc. Earth element shows a solid state of existence. Water element shows a flexible and fluid state of existence. For example, an idea that one " owns " a particular thing (e.g. a car, a house, spouse, some knowledge etc) is of solid state and made of earth element. An idea that one " needs " a particular thing (e.g. a car, a house, spouse, some knowledge etc) is of the nature of water element. Thus, different mental concepts and ideas can be mapped to the five elements. > > > > When one thinks of " I " , one perhaps thinks of a body that looks and feels in a particular way physically. Apart from the physical aspect, one may think of " I " as someone who has certain qualities, certain needs, certain belongings etc. All those concepts one has about who one is, form one's self-awareness and Kundalini represents that self-awareness. Kundalini cannot leave Moolaadhaara chakra, if *anything* that is *solid* in nature within one's cumulative idea of who one is is still remaining. Kundalini cannot leave Swaadhishthaana chakra, if *anything* that is *solid* or *fluid* in nature within one's cumulative idea of who one is is still remaining. And so on. > > > > Many people who talk about experiences of Kundalini in higher chakras are often talking merely about some amount of vaayus flowing in those chakras (which may still be a nice experience) and have *not* experienced Kundalini actually being there. IF Kundalini really leaves Moolaadhaara, one will not perceive a solid body, one will not have notions of owning anything. Similarly, as Kundalini moves up each chakra, each element is effaced in one's cumulative idea of who one is, at the physical as well as the subtle level of existence! To completely efface even one element (earth) from one's notion of self ( " I " ), even for a short duration of time, is not at all easy. > > > > The order in which elements are effaced as one progresses towards samadhi is - earth, water, fire, air and ether. If Kundalini again comes down, effaced elements return to work in the reverse order - ether, air, fire, water and earth. > > > > * * * > > > > Regarding physics and spiritual realities: > > > > > Does physics describe reality? > > > > Physics tries to describe/model reality at the gross physical level, as perceived by the external senses. However, one's mind can " perceive " things without the external senses playing a role. > > > > As a simple example, one may be asleep and get a dream, in which one's mind may " see " some people and " hear " a conversation between them. In another example, a yogi may be meditating with a mantra with intense focus and " see " some scenes and/or " hear " some things. These things cannot be perceived by the external senses and hence cannot be studied by modern science. > > > > It is reasonable to define reality as something that can be perceived by the external senses, because different people can experience the same reality using their senses individually and verify the observation. However, some experiences of the mind that cannot be perceived by senses are sometimes very powerful and have a huge, life-altering and sometimes liberating influence on people. Inability to study and model them is a big drawback of modern science. > > > > * * * > > > > One may categorize dreams and internal yogic experiences as imaginations or hallucinations, because there is no independent validation, and call them unworthy of a study. But there are cases that make one wonder. For example, see the following messages from the archives. > > > > Mystical experiences of mind and mantras (message 951) > > /message/951 > > > > In the above message, one person had a specific yogic experience that was described in detail and another person seemed to know about it and supplied one tangible detail relating to the experience, suggesting that he too " observed " the experience of the first person, though it was beyond the external senses of either person! > > > > Re: Guru (message 391) > > /message/391 > > > > In the above message also, one person had a specific yogic experience that was described in detail and another person seemed to know about it and supplied a couple of tangible details relating to the experience, suggesting that he too " observed " the experience of the first person, though it was beyond the external senses of either person! > > > > Internal god and external god (message 2498) > > /message/2498 > > > > In the above message, one person had a specific yogic experience involving a deity and another person perceived with his external senses a vision involving the same deity, though others in the room could not perceive anything with their external senses, suggesting that the second person " observed " the experience of the first person through a specific prism. > > > > * * * > > > > Such examples cannot prove much, but they do suggest that perhaps *some* experiences that cannot be measured or perceived by the external senses are observable by others, though not everyone may be able to observe. Then, one cannot rule out the possibility of *some* experiences that cannot be measured or perceived by the external senses being a part of the " reality " that mind can access. > > > > But, how can modern science study it? > > > > Because the only thing that can be studied and measured is the reality involving the gross body and its senses, one may suggest that experiences of the subtle body may be studied by observing various parts of the gross physical body. For example, one can look at the nervous signals flowing through various parts of the brain and try to correlate them with the experiences of the subtle body. > > > > On the surface, it sounds like a great idea. But, it assumes that subtle body and causal body are redundant. Though there is some correspondence between what happens in the causal, subtle and gross bodies, it is a many-to-many mapping and NOT a one-to-one mapping, in which case the concept of causal and subtle bodies would be redundant, i.e. whatever they model can be moderled using just the gross body! > > > > If you drive through a neighborhood and observe the houses from the road, you can have *some* idea of what is going on. A particular house with a lot of lights and sound and many cars parked outside may be having a party. People in one particular house with no lights are probably out of town. But you can never be sure what is going on in the house, how many people are inside, what exactly they are doing etc, by merely looking at the house from outside. > > > > Similarly, by looking at the nervous signals in various points of the brain, you may be able to see some basic things, but not much. The experiences of the subtle mind are beyond your reach and study, if your tools are limited to the gross physical domain. > > > > * * * > > > > Unfortunately, modern science cannot study that part of the reality which is beyond the scope of external senses, unless scientists become yogis and develop mastery of the internal world. > > > > While rishis of ancient times had mastery of the internal world (which is the microcosm of the entire universe) and could observe any space-time point, even the greatest yogis of today cannot control their state completely. When Kundalini rises, it may go somewhere and one may experience some part of the Infinite Reality. But one cannot control exactly where Kundalini goes and exactly which part of the Infinite Reality one observes. Rishis seemed to have a perfect control. > > > > Best regards, > > Narasimha > > > > Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAstrologer.org/homam > > Do Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAstrologer.org/tarpana > > Spirituality: > > Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro.home.comcast.net > > Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAstrologer.org > > Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagannath.org > > > > > > ---- rajarshi nandy <rajarshi14 wrote: > > > Sorry the previous mail went off incomplete. > > > > > > Dear Sundeep, > > > > > > Let me mention some stuff from the diaries of Sri Shamacharun Lahiri (a self realized Yogi of the highest order) - it maybe of some help to you. He did mention in details about the process of creation as he saw it. > > > > > > As per him, at the beginning was the point of ultimate chaos. Then from there came the " vidhyut " of Akash. As this " Vidyut " interacted with the chaos, it produced some universal energies which are more commonly known as the universal deities like Shiva, Vishnu etc etc. Then came the " Vidyut " of vayu ( none of these are the actual physical elements as we see it, but more the essence of the element, hence his use of the word " vidyut " and " taranga " ) whose interaction with the chaos resulted in some more energy states. Thus, in this way came, Agni, Apa and Prithwi, each one resulting from the previous and each one resulting in some energy states, which in the end resulted in 33 crore possible states of energy. > > > > > > There is some lesson in there (at least for me), and I want to get at it.. I feel there may be some correlation between that and the 11-dimensional physics of super string theory too, but I get ahead of myself.. > > > > > > This is a nice idea and I would like to know more about it. > > > > > > As much as I could fathom (I am no physicist, neither do I have the ability to penetrate the mathematics of the M-Theory), as it stands now, it is quite half formed. There being multiple theories of the String variety, adhered to by multiple physicists, the M-Theory (11 dimensional one) is one of the many which 'claim to explain' in parts some aspects of the physical world. Finding a correlation between this and the idea of the five elements, in my humble opinion, is still far fetched. I can understand some correlation between basic Quantum Mechanics, (at least the Copenhegan Interpretation), non-locality etc, and the ideas of Indian mysticism, but a link between M-theory of panch-mahabhuta?!.. > > > > > > Well, with the kind permission of Narasimha, I would like to know more about how exactly you can link these two, because I myself with my limited understand fail to see any viable correlation at all as of now, specially, since the M-theory is yet in a very nascent stage. > > > > > > The other thing one must think about is the basic nature of theoritical physics. Does physics describe reality? Or does it provide a model of reality? These two are different. Mathematics provides a tool/model to gauge reality. It need not be exactly as reality is. > > > Which is why Richard Feynman once famously quoted that everyone knows that Quatum Mechanics works, but no one know what it really is! > > > > > > The idea of the pach mahabhuta and creation is almost the essence of everything. The day physics gets THAT deep, there would be really nothing more left to do. Physics is still quite far away from that stage. > > > > > > -Regards > > > Rajarshi > > > > > > --- On Tue, 29/9/09, vedicastrostudent <vedicastrostudent wrote: > > > > > > Dear Rajarshi, > > > > > > Not sure if I get the thrust of your point. Yes, sadhana is the only way to know this for sure. And so also for everything else that is below the reach of the senses (e.g. Atma, sookshma sarira etc). But we do read about them (all these things e.g Atma etc), and about the significance of the vedic gods anyway, dont we? They do offer a mild complement to sadhana, dont they? They do help make the mind more receptive toward the benefits of sadhana.. > > > > > > Also wanted to assure you that I really want to know the answer to the question. I am not interested in a he-said/she- said type game (if perhaps that is what you were hinting at?). I am extremely curious as to why there is an order and not a parallelism, for e.g. why are the mahabhutas not simultaneously formed. There is some lesson in there (at least for me), and I want to get at it.. I feel there may be some correlation between that and the 11-dimensional physics of super string theory too, but I get ahead of myself.. > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > Sundeep > > > > > > , rajarshi nandy <rajarshi14@ ...> wrote: > > > > > > > > Dear Sundeep, > > > > > > > > With all due respect to your query, I wanted to ask, how does it matter? Can anyone here really know for sure which came after which? We can only speculate and guess and retrofit logic and quote one scripture vs another scripture. > > > > > > > > Only practical way to really find out the truth is sadhana. That too if we are destined to find out we will, or else no. > > > > > > > > -Regards > > > > Rajarshi > > > > > > > > The upsurge (of consciousness) is Bhairava - Shiva Sutra > > > > > > > > --- On Tue, 29/9/09, vedicastrostudent <vedicastrostudent@ ...> wrote: > > > > > > > > vedicastrostudent <vedicastrostudent@ ...> > > > > Order of Creation (of mahabhuta/tattwa) ? > > > > > > > > Tuesday, 29 September, 2009, 1:12 AM > > > > > > > > Dear Narasimhaji and others, > > > > > > > > In Taittiriya Upanishad (http://www.sacred- texts.com/ hin/sbe15/ sbe15034. htm), the following is the order of creation (Max Mueller interpretation) : > > > > > > > > " From that Self 2 (Brahman) sprang ether (âkâsa, that through which we hear); from ether air (that through which we hear and feel); from air fire (that through which we hear, feel, and see); from fire water (that through which we hear, feel, see, and taste); from water earth (that through which we hear, feel, see, taste, and smell) " > > > > > > > > This sounds logical to me in that I expected Akasa to be first and earth to be last. I have heard differing opinions though, perhaps in Sanjay Rathji's Brhat Nakshtra but since I dont have the book in front of me, I cant confirm. Do you agree with the interpretation above, if not what is your belief, source and justification? > > > > > > > > Thank you, > > > > > > > > Sundeep Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 1, 2009 Report Share Posted October 1, 2009 Pranaams, >In Sahasrara chakra lies undifferentiated consciousness (Brahman or >Aatman),where there are no I-ness or any objectification. Does it mean that when consciousness reaches Sahasraar Chakra, one merges in to Brahman and that is the same state which is named varyingly as Realisation/Jeevan Mukta/Nirvikalpa Samaadhi/Merging in to brahaman etc...? Why i asked you this question is because, i am little confused here. if i remember correctly, in " Auto Biography of a Yogi " , it is mentioned that only the souls who depart from Sahsraar are eligible to enter to Suvarnaa loka and then there they have to still work out the bondage of their Karana Shareera... Is it not true that Chetana reaching Sahsraar means *practically* end of journey.? How to reconcile with the above to seemingly different informations? Best Regards, Utpal , Narasimha PVR Rao <pvr wrote: > > Namaste, > > I am only addressing the five elements mentioned in upanishads. > > In Sahasrara chakra lies undifferentiated consciousness (Brahman or Aatman), where there are no I-ness or any objectification. Just below it, there are several lokas that people do not mention normally. In Aajnaa chakra lies the primordial state of the universe where there is just space and time, but no five elements. From visuddhi chakra to moolaadhaara chakra lie the elements of ether, air, fire, water and earth as I mentioned. I only focused on the last five stages. > > What happens between Sahasrara and Aajnaa is known only to greatest of seers. It is true that several yogis can be established in Sahasrara, where there is no ego and no objectification. However, very very very few can understand what happens in the chakras just below Sahasrara and above Aajnaa, where there is still I-ness and objectification, but at a very very high level that is beyond the play of elements. > > There is a lot more happening between Sahasrara and Aajnaa than elsewhere, but we are not well-equipped to understand it... > > Best regards, > Narasimha > > Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAstrologer.org/homam > Do Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAstrologer.org/tarpana > Spirituality: > Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro.home.comcast.net > Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAstrologer.org > Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagannath.org > > > ---- yeeahoo_99 <nitish.arya wrote: > > || OM TAT SAT || > > Dear Narasimha, > > You mentioned 5 tattwas, while there are 6 tattwas - that are associated with the 6 cerebro-spinal chakras - a result of all possible combination of 3 gunas of nature. > > > > Gunas Tattwa Chakras > > > > Satvic Tamas - SuperEther - Medulla > > Satvic Satva - Ether (Aakash tattwa) - Throat > > Satvic Rajas - Air (Vayu tattwa) - Heart > > Rajasic Rajas - Fire (Agni tattwa) - Navel > > Rajasic Tamas - Water (Jala tattwa) - Sacral > > Tamasic Tamas - Earth (Prithvi tattwa) - Coccygeal > > > > SuperEther > > 1. All pervading Prana from which Aakash tattwa is created - refer RajaYoga of Vivekananda. > > 2. Background of Aakash tattwa - Refer Gita Commentary of Yogananda > > > > It is the starting point if one begins to discuss about Creation in any sense... > > Your comments. > > Regards, > > Nitish > > > > , Narasimha PVR Rao <pvr@> wrote: > > > > > > Namaste Sundeep and Rajarshi, > > > > > > Yes, Pt Rath's astrology book " Brihat Nakshatra " gives a different order of creation starting with water and ending with the pair of ether and earth. It seems to be his extrapolation. > > > > > > What you quoted from Taittariya Upanishad is the traditional view that I am familiar with. Other scriptures refer to the same order of creation, including " Yoga Vaasishtham " , where Maharshi Vasishtha teaches creation, destruction and liberation to Lord Rama. > > > > > > * * * > > > > > > This Upanishadic understanding is also consistent with chakra based understanding of Tantra. The five chakras downwards from Visuddhi chakra to Moolaadhaara chakra represent ether, air, fire, water and earth. When Kundalini leaves Moolaadhaara, earth element within one is surrendered, i.e. all traces of earth element are effaced in one's self-awareness. When Kundalini leaves Swaadhishthaana, water element within one is surrendered, i.e. all traces of water element are effaced in one's self-awareness. And so on. > > > > > > By earth and water etc, don't just think of physical earth and physical water etc. Earth element shows a solid state of existence. Water element shows a flexible and fluid state of existence. For example, an idea that one " owns " a particular thing (e.g. a car, a house, spouse, some knowledge etc) is of solid state and made of earth element. An idea that one " needs " a particular thing (e.g. a car, a house, spouse, some knowledge etc) is of the nature of water element. Thus, different mental concepts and ideas can be mapped to the five elements. > > > > > > When one thinks of " I " , one perhaps thinks of a body that looks and feels in a particular way physically. Apart from the physical aspect, one may think of " I " as someone who has certain qualities, certain needs, certain belongings etc. All those concepts one has about who one is, form one's self-awareness and Kundalini represents that self-awareness. Kundalini cannot leave Moolaadhaara chakra, if *anything* that is *solid* in nature within one's cumulative idea of who one is is still remaining. Kundalini cannot leave Swaadhishthaana chakra, if *anything* that is *solid* or *fluid* in nature within one's cumulative idea of who one is is still remaining. And so on. > > > > > > Many people who talk about experiences of Kundalini in higher chakras are often talking merely about some amount of vaayus flowing in those chakras (which may still be a nice experience) and have *not* experienced Kundalini actually being there. IF Kundalini really leaves Moolaadhaara, one will not perceive a solid body, one will not have notions of owning anything. Similarly, as Kundalini moves up each chakra, each element is effaced in one's cumulative idea of who one is, at the physical as well as the subtle level of existence! To completely efface even one element (earth) from one's notion of self ( " I " ), even for a short duration of time, is not at all easy. > > > > > > The order in which elements are effaced as one progresses towards samadhi is - earth, water, fire, air and ether. If Kundalini again comes down, effaced elements return to work in the reverse order - ether, air, fire, water and earth. > > > > > > * * * > > > > > > Regarding physics and spiritual realities: > > > > > > > Does physics describe reality? > > > > > > Physics tries to describe/model reality at the gross physical level, as perceived by the external senses. However, one's mind can " perceive " things without the external senses playing a role. > > > > > > As a simple example, one may be asleep and get a dream, in which one's mind may " see " some people and " hear " a conversation between them. In another example, a yogi may be meditating with a mantra with intense focus and " see " some scenes and/or " hear " some things. These things cannot be perceived by the external senses and hence cannot be studied by modern science. > > > > > > It is reasonable to define reality as something that can be perceived by the external senses, because different people can experience the same reality using their senses individually and verify the observation. However, some experiences of the mind that cannot be perceived by senses are sometimes very powerful and have a huge, life-altering and sometimes liberating influence on people. Inability to study and model them is a big drawback of modern science. > > > > > > * * * > > > > > > One may categorize dreams and internal yogic experiences as imaginations or hallucinations, because there is no independent validation, and call them unworthy of a study. But there are cases that make one wonder. For example, see the following messages from the archives. > > > > > > Mystical experiences of mind and mantras (message 951) > > > /message/951 > > > > > > In the above message, one person had a specific yogic experience that was described in detail and another person seemed to know about it and supplied one tangible detail relating to the experience, suggesting that he too " observed " the experience of the first person, though it was beyond the external senses of either person! > > > > > > Re: Guru (message 391) > > > /message/391 > > > > > > In the above message also, one person had a specific yogic experience that was described in detail and another person seemed to know about it and supplied a couple of tangible details relating to the experience, suggesting that he too " observed " the experience of the first person, though it was beyond the external senses of either person! > > > > > > Internal god and external god (message 2498) > > > /message/2498 > > > > > > In the above message, one person had a specific yogic experience involving a deity and another person perceived with his external senses a vision involving the same deity, though others in the room could not perceive anything with their external senses, suggesting that the second person " observed " the experience of the first person through a specific prism. > > > > > > * * * > > > > > > Such examples cannot prove much, but they do suggest that perhaps *some* experiences that cannot be measured or perceived by the external senses are observable by others, though not everyone may be able to observe. Then, one cannot rule out the possibility of *some* experiences that cannot be measured or perceived by the external senses being a part of the " reality " that mind can access. > > > > > > But, how can modern science study it? > > > > > > Because the only thing that can be studied and measured is the reality involving the gross body and its senses, one may suggest that experiences of the subtle body may be studied by observing various parts of the gross physical body. For example, one can look at the nervous signals flowing through various parts of the brain and try to correlate them with the experiences of the subtle body. > > > > > > On the surface, it sounds like a great idea. But, it assumes that subtle body and causal body are redundant. Though there is some correspondence between what happens in the causal, subtle and gross bodies, it is a many-to-many mapping and NOT a one-to-one mapping, in which case the concept of causal and subtle bodies would be redundant, i.e. whatever they model can be moderled using just the gross body! > > > > > > If you drive through a neighborhood and observe the houses from the road, you can have *some* idea of what is going on. A particular house with a lot of lights and sound and many cars parked outside may be having a party. People in one particular house with no lights are probably out of town. But you can never be sure what is going on in the house, how many people are inside, what exactly they are doing etc, by merely looking at the house from outside. > > > > > > Similarly, by looking at the nervous signals in various points of the brain, you may be able to see some basic things, but not much. The experiences of the subtle mind are beyond your reach and study, if your tools are limited to the gross physical domain. > > > > > > * * * > > > > > > Unfortunately, modern science cannot study that part of the reality which is beyond the scope of external senses, unless scientists become yogis and develop mastery of the internal world. > > > > > > While rishis of ancient times had mastery of the internal world (which is the microcosm of the entire universe) and could observe any space-time point, even the greatest yogis of today cannot control their state completely. When Kundalini rises, it may go somewhere and one may experience some part of the Infinite Reality. But one cannot control exactly where Kundalini goes and exactly which part of the Infinite Reality one observes. Rishis seemed to have a perfect control. > > > > > > Best regards, > > > Narasimha > > > > > > Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAstrologer.org/homam > > > Do Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAstrologer.org/tarpana > > > Spirituality: > > > Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro.home.comcast.net > > > Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAstrologer.org > > > Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagannath.org > > > > > > > > > ---- rajarshi nandy <rajarshi14@> wrote: > > > > Sorry the previous mail went off incomplete. > > > > > > > > Dear Sundeep, > > > > > > > > Let me mention some stuff from the diaries of Sri Shamacharun Lahiri (a self realized Yogi of the highest order) - it maybe of some help to you. He did mention in details about the process of creation as he saw it. > > > > > > > > As per him, at the beginning was the point of ultimate chaos. Then from there came the " vidhyut " of Akash. As this " Vidyut " interacted with the chaos, it produced some universal energies which are more commonly known as the universal deities like Shiva, Vishnu etc etc. Then came the " Vidyut " of vayu ( none of these are the actual physical elements as we see it, but more the essence of the element, hence his use of the word " vidyut " and " taranga " ) whose interaction with the chaos resulted in some more energy states. Thus, in this way came, Agni, Apa and Prithwi, each one resulting from the previous and each one resulting in some energy states, which in the end resulted in 33 crore possible states of energy. > > > > > > > > There is some lesson in there (at least for me), and I want to get at it.. I feel there may be some correlation between that and the 11-dimensional physics of super string theory too, but I get ahead of myself.. > > > > > > > > This is a nice idea and I would like to know more about it. > > > > > > > > As much as I could fathom (I am no physicist, neither do I have the ability to penetrate the mathematics of the M-Theory), as it stands now, it is quite half formed. There being multiple theories of the String variety, adhered to by multiple physicists, the M-Theory (11 dimensional one) is one of the many which 'claim to explain' in parts some aspects of the physical world. Finding a correlation between this and the idea of the five elements, in my humble opinion, is still far fetched. I can understand some correlation between basic Quantum Mechanics, (at least the Copenhegan Interpretation), non-locality etc, and the ideas of Indian mysticism, but a link between M-theory of panch-mahabhuta?!.. > > > > > > > > Well, with the kind permission of Narasimha, I would like to know more about how exactly you can link these two, because I myself with my limited understand fail to see any viable correlation at all as of now, specially, since the M-theory is yet in a very nascent stage. > > > > > > > > The other thing one must think about is the basic nature of theoritical physics. Does physics describe reality? Or does it provide a model of reality? These two are different. Mathematics provides a tool/model to gauge reality. It need not be exactly as reality is. > > > > Which is why Richard Feynman once famously quoted that everyone knows that Quatum Mechanics works, but no one know what it really is! > > > > > > > > The idea of the pach mahabhuta and creation is almost the essence of everything. The day physics gets THAT deep, there would be really nothing more left to do. Physics is still quite far away from that stage. > > > > > > > > -Regards > > > > Rajarshi > > > > > > > > --- On Tue, 29/9/09, vedicastrostudent <vedicastrostudent@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Dear Rajarshi, > > > > > > > > Not sure if I get the thrust of your point. Yes, sadhana is the only way to know this for sure. And so also for everything else that is below the reach of the senses (e.g. Atma, sookshma sarira etc). But we do read about them (all these things e.g Atma etc), and about the significance of the vedic gods anyway, dont we? They do offer a mild complement to sadhana, dont they? They do help make the mind more receptive toward the benefits of sadhana.. > > > > > > > > Also wanted to assure you that I really want to know the answer to the question. I am not interested in a he-said/she- said type game (if perhaps that is what you were hinting at?). I am extremely curious as to why there is an order and not a parallelism, for e.g. why are the mahabhutas not simultaneously formed. There is some lesson in there (at least for me), and I want to get at it.. I feel there may be some correlation between that and the 11-dimensional physics of super string theory too, but I get ahead of myself.. > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > Sundeep > > > > > > > > , rajarshi nandy <rajarshi14@ ...> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Dear Sundeep, > > > > > > > > > > With all due respect to your query, I wanted to ask, how does it matter? Can anyone here really know for sure which came after which? We can only speculate and guess and retrofit logic and quote one scripture vs another scripture. > > > > > > > > > > Only practical way to really find out the truth is sadhana. That too if we are destined to find out we will, or else no. > > > > > > > > > > -Regards > > > > > Rajarshi > > > > > > > > > > The upsurge (of consciousness) is Bhairava - Shiva Sutra > > > > > > > > > > --- On Tue, 29/9/09, vedicastrostudent <vedicastrostudent@ ...> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > vedicastrostudent <vedicastrostudent@ ...> > > > > > Order of Creation (of mahabhuta/tattwa) ? > > > > > > > > > > Tuesday, 29 September, 2009, 1:12 AM > > > > > > > > > > Dear Narasimhaji and others, > > > > > > > > > > In Taittiriya Upanishad (http://www.sacred- texts.com/ hin/sbe15/ sbe15034. htm), the following is the order of creation (Max Mueller interpretation) : > > > > > > > > > > " From that Self 2 (Brahman) sprang ether (âkâsa, that through which we hear); from ether air (that through which we hear and feel); from air fire (that through which we hear, feel, and see); from fire water (that through which we hear, feel, see, and taste); from water earth (that through which we hear, feel, see, taste, and smell) " > > > > > > > > > > This sounds logical to me in that I expected Akasa to be first and earth to be last. I have heard differing opinions though, perhaps in Sanjay Rathji's Brhat Nakshtra but since I dont have the book in front of me, I cant confirm. Do you agree with the interpretation above, if not what is your belief, source and justification? > > > > > > > > > > Thank you, > > > > > > > > > > Sundeep > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 1, 2009 Report Share Posted October 1, 2009 Dear Nitish, Allow me interject in your conversation with Narasimha. You mentioned: Thus, the highest Ajna is connected to the lowest Mooladhara and the awakening of one of them affects the other, a fact rather well-documented in Yoga books. A fact, required to understand why Ganesh, deity of Mooladhara, is worshipped first. Can you please elaborate on what you mean by the terms "awakening" and "affects"? Let us be technically precise and not use terms loosely to avoid confusion. What is the "awakening" of a chakra? What does it mean by "affecting"? The diagrams, not just by Lahiri Mahasaya but even other books, explain the connection of the nadis etc, but no where in his description of spiritual progess (from the 26 dairies of Lahiri Mahasaya) does he say that awakening of the agya chakra will automatically awaken the mooladhara. If you can provide an exact quote with page number and name of the book, I will try and check. He explains in details about the "granthi bhedans" before one goes into actually awakening any chakra for that matter. These granthis have a specific format in which they have to be pierced as per Lahiri Mahasaya and it is here that a connection is drawn between Agya and Mooladhara with Manipura in the centre. Not in the actual act of "awakening a chakra", if I use the same definitions as used in the book by Lahiri Mahasaya himself. Gunas, by inherent duality in nature, give rise to the 6 tattwas, that is as simple. Now, the spiritual law of duality is very well described by the two birds analogy, as well as the 3 gunas are very well mentioned in the upanishads. Isn't it ? Can you quote a scripture which says there are 6 tattwas? Tattwa has a very specific technical meaning. When you say that Gunas by "inherent duality" in nature give rise to 6 tattwas, I guess you are using a simple multiplication of 3 x 2 and arriving at six. My question, then why not a simple 3 raised to the power 2 resulting in 9 tattwas? No, this is not really a case of basic maths I presume. The scriptures are clear that there are exactly 5 tattwas, not more. Chitta is not a tattwa. Thus, all our experiences of matter are through non-material Chitta, and it doesn't imply that 6th tattwa doesn't exist. No one denies the existence of Chitta, but the scriptures do not bracket it as a "tattwa". The tattwas are 5 in number as per multiple Hindu scriptures, both Agamas/Nigamas as well as Upanishads. -Regards Rajarshi The upsurge (of consciousness) is Bhairava - Shiva Sutra--- On Thu, 1/10/09, yeeahoo_99 <nitish.arya wrote: yeeahoo_99 <nitish.arya Re: Order of Creation, Physics & Reality Date: Thursday, 1 October, 2009, 10:33 AM || OM TAT SAT ||Dear Narasimha,3 Gunas, by inherent duality in nature, give rise to the 6 tattwas, that is as simple. Now, the spiritual law of duality is very well described by the two birds analogy, as well as the 3 gunas are very well mentioned in the upanishads. Isn't it ?> From visuddhi chakra to moolaadhaara chakra lie the elements of > ether, air, fire, water and earth as I mentioned. I only focused on > the last five stages.What do you mean by last 5 stages ? Where is the beginning and the end of the sushumna passing through 6 cerebro-spinal chakras ?In the physical body, it appears as a linear movement from the lowest mooladhara to the highest ajna chakra - but the nadis' emanating from these "Shad-chakras" - meet in a circular manner inside the Sahasrara Chakra (See the diagram of Astral Nadis' prepared by YogiRaj ShyamaCharan Lahiri, published in Gita Commentary by Yogananda).Thus, the highest Ajna is connected to the lowest Mooladhara and the awakening of one of them affects the other, a fact rather well-documented in Yoga books. A fact, required to understand why Ganesh, deity of Mooladhara, is worshipped first.> In Sahasrara chakra lies undifferentiated consciousness (Brahman or >Aatman), where there are no I-ness or any objectification. Just >below it, there are several lokas that people do not mention > normally.With every invocation of Gayatri Mantra, we mention 3 or 7 of these lokas. Don't we do it "Normally" ? In any case, we are not discussing about the actual experiences or undifferentiated consciousness, the 6 tattwas that cause creation are still very much differentiated in Nature.Patanjalis' Chitta Vrittis' correspond to the 5 tattwas and are all happening on the background of Chitta, the all-pervading 6th tattwa. The normal-human- experience happens by the 5 modifications/ movement of Chitta (finest creation).How would the Soul become aware of the more material Aakash Tattwa (and thus a single coherent self pervading the material physical body), if it were not standing behind the Chitta (SuperEther) ?Thus, all our experiences of matter are through non-material Chitta, and it doesn't imply that 6th tattwa doesn't exist. If you could calm all those modifications of Chitta, you would have your self-realized.> In Aajnaa chakra lies the primordial state of the universe where > there is just space and time, but no five elements. Nothing comes out from nothing. How can the lower tattwas evolve from higher tattwas, if even their subtle representations are purged from existence altogether ?Greatest of the Seers have already put down the scriptures in writing, so that people like us can benefit.Regards,Nitish, Narasimha PVR Rao <pvr wrote:>> Namaste,> > I am only addressing the five elements mentioned in upanishads.> > In Sahasrara chakra lies undifferentiated consciousness (Brahman or Aatman), where there are no I-ness or any objectification. Just below it, there are several lokas that people do not mention normally. In Aajnaa chakra lies the primordial state of the universe where there is just space and time, but no five elements. From visuddhi chakra to moolaadhaara chakra lie the elements of ether, air, fire, water and earth as I mentioned. I only focused on the last five stages.> > What happens between Sahasrara and Aajnaa is known only to greatest of seers. It is true that several yogis can be established in Sahasrara, where there is no ego and no objectification. However, very very very few can understand what happens in the chakras just below Sahasrara and above Aajnaa, where there is still I-ness and objectification, but at a very very high level that is beyond the play of elements.> > There is a lot more happening between Sahasrara and Aajnaa than elsewhere, but we are not well-equipped to understand it...> > Best regards,> Narasimha> ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -> Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ homam> Do Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ tarpana> Spirituality: http://groups. / group/vedic- wisdom> Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro. home.comcast. net> Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAst rologer.org> Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagan nath.org> ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -> > ---- yeeahoo_99 <nitish.arya@ ...> wrote: > > || OM TAT SAT ||> > Dear Narasimha, > > You mentioned 5 tattwas, while there are 6 tattwas - that are associated with the 6 cerebro-spinal chakras - a result of all possible combination of 3 gunas of nature.> > > > Gunas Tattwa Chakras> > > > Satvic Tamas - SuperEther - Medulla > > Satvic Satva - Ether (Aakash tattwa) - Throat> > Satvic Rajas - Air (Vayu tattwa) - Heart> > Rajasic Rajas - Fire (Agni tattwa) - Navel> > Rajasic Tamas - Water (Jala tattwa) - Sacral> > Tamasic Tamas - Earth (Prithvi tattwa) - Coccygeal> > > > SuperEther> > 1. All pervading Prana from which Aakash tattwa is created - refer RajaYoga of Vivekananda.> > 2. Background of Aakash tattwa - Refer Gita Commentary of Yogananda> > > > It is the starting point if one begins to discuss about Creation in any sense...> > Your comments.> > Regards,> > Nitish> > > > , Narasimha PVR Rao <pvr@> wrote:> > >> > > Namaste Sundeep and Rajarshi,> > > > > > Yes, Pt Rath's astrology book "Brihat Nakshatra" gives a different order of creation starting with water and ending with the pair of ether and earth. It seems to be his extrapolation.> > > > > > What you quoted from Taittariya Upanishad is the traditional view that I am familiar with. Other scriptures refer to the same order of creation, including "Yoga Vaasishtham" , where Maharshi Vasishtha teaches creation, destruction and liberation to Lord Rama.> > > > > > * * *> > > > > > This Upanishadic understanding is also consistent with chakra based understanding of Tantra. The five chakras downwards from Visuddhi chakra to Moolaadhaara chakra represent ether, air, fire, water and earth. When Kundalini leaves Moolaadhaara, earth element within one is surrendered, i.e. all traces of earth element are effaced in one's self-awareness. When Kundalini leaves Swaadhishthaana, water element within one is surrendered, i.e. all traces of water element are effaced in one's self-awareness. And so on.> > > > > > By earth and water etc, don't just think of physical earth and physical water etc. Earth element shows a solid state of existence. Water element shows a flexible and fluid state of existence. For example, an idea that one "owns" a particular thing (e.g. a car, a house, spouse, some knowledge etc) is of solid state and made of earth element. An idea that one "needs" a particular thing (e.g. a car, a house, spouse, some knowledge etc) is of the nature of water element. Thus, different mental concepts and ideas can be mapped to the five elements.> > > > > > When one thinks of "I", one perhaps thinks of a body that looks and feels in a particular way physically. Apart from the physical aspect, one may think of "I" as someone who has certain qualities, certain needs, certain belongings etc. All those concepts one has about who one is, form one's self-awareness and Kundalini represents that self-awareness. Kundalini cannot leave Moolaadhaara chakra, if *anything* that is *solid* in nature within one's cumulative idea of who one is is still remaining. Kundalini cannot leave Swaadhishthaana chakra, if *anything* that is *solid* or *fluid* in nature within one's cumulative idea of who one is is still remaining. And so on.> > > > > > Many people who talk about experiences of Kundalini in higher chakras are often talking merely about some amount of vaayus flowing in those chakras (which may still be a nice experience) and have *not* experienced Kundalini actually being there. IF Kundalini really leaves Moolaadhaara, one will not perceive a solid body, one will not have notions of owning anything. Similarly, as Kundalini moves up each chakra, each element is effaced in one's cumulative idea of who one is, at the physical as well as the subtle level of existence! To completely efface even one element (earth) from one's notion of self ("I"), even for a short duration of time, is not at all easy.> > > > > > The order in which elements are effaced as one progresses towards samadhi is - earth, water, fire, air and ether. If Kundalini again comes down, effaced elements return to work in the reverse order - ether, air, fire, water and earth.> > > > > > * * *> > > > > > Regarding physics and spiritual realities:> > > > > > > Does physics describe reality?> > > > > > Physics tries to describe/model reality at the gross physical level, as perceived by the external senses. However, one's mind can "perceive" things without the external senses playing a role.> > > > > > As a simple example, one may be asleep and get a dream, in which one's mind may "see" some people and "hear" a conversation between them. In another example, a yogi may be meditating with a mantra with intense focus and "see" some scenes and/or "hear" some things. These things cannot be perceived by the external senses and hence cannot be studied by modern science.> > > > > > It is reasonable to define reality as something that can be perceived by the external senses, because different people can experience the same reality using their senses individually and verify the observation. However, some experiences of the mind that cannot be perceived by senses are sometimes very powerful and have a huge, life-altering and sometimes liberating influence on people. Inability to study and model them is a big drawback of modern science.> > > > > > * * *> > > > > > One may categorize dreams and internal yogic experiences as imaginations or hallucinations, because there is no independent validation, and call them unworthy of a study. But there are cases that make one wonder. For example, see the following messages from the archives.> > > > > > Mystical experiences of mind and mantras (message 951)> > > http://groups. / group/vedic- wisdom/message/ 951> > > > > > In the above message, one person had a specific yogic experience that was described in detail and another person seemed to know about it and supplied one tangible detail relating to the experience, suggesting that he too "observed" the experience of the first person, though it was beyond the external senses of either person!> > > > > > Re: Guru (message 391)> > > http://groups. / group/vedic- wisdom/message/ 391> > > > > > In the above message also, one person had a specific yogic experience that was described in detail and another person seemed to know about it and supplied a couple of tangible details relating to the experience, suggesting that he too "observed" the experience of the first person, though it was beyond the external senses of either person!> > > > > > Internal god and external god (message 2498)> > > http://groups. / group/vedic- wisdom/message/ 2498> > > > > > In the above message, one person had a specific yogic experience involving a deity and another person perceived with his external senses a vision involving the same deity, though others in the room could not perceive anything with their external senses, suggesting that the second person "observed" the experience of the first person through a specific prism.> > > > > > * * *> > > > > > Such examples cannot prove much, but they do suggest that perhaps *some* experiences that cannot be measured or perceived by the external senses are observable by others, though not everyone may be able to observe. Then, one cannot rule out the possibility of *some* experiences that cannot be measured or perceived by the external senses being a part of the "reality" that mind can access.> > > > > > But, how can modern science study it?> > > > > > Because the only thing that can be studied and measured is the reality involving the gross body and its senses, one may suggest that experiences of the subtle body may be studied by observing various parts of the gross physical body. For example, one can look at the nervous signals flowing through various parts of the brain and try to correlate them with the experiences of the subtle body.> > > > > > On the surface, it sounds like a great idea. But, it assumes that subtle body and causal body are redundant. Though there is some correspondence between what happens in the causal, subtle and gross bodies, it is a many-to-many mapping and NOT a one-to-one mapping, in which case the concept of causal and subtle bodies would be redundant, i.e. whatever they model can be moderled using just the gross body!> > > > > > If you drive through a neighborhood and observe the houses from the road, you can have *some* idea of what is going on. A particular house with a lot of lights and sound and many cars parked outside may be having a party. People in one particular house with no lights are probably out of town. But you can never be sure what is going on in the house, how many people are inside, what exactly they are doing etc, by merely looking at the house from outside.> > > > > > Similarly, by looking at the nervous signals in various points of the brain, you may be able to see some basic things, but not much. The experiences of the subtle mind are beyond your reach and study, if your tools are limited to the gross physical domain.> > > > > > * * *> > > > > > Unfortunately, modern science cannot study that part of the reality which is beyond the scope of external senses, unless scientists become yogis and develop mastery of the internal world.> > > > > > While rishis of ancient times had mastery of the internal world (which is the microcosm of the entire universe) and could observe any space-time point, even the greatest yogis of today cannot control their state completely. When Kundalini rises, it may go somewhere and one may experience some part of the Infinite Reality. But one cannot control exactly where Kundalini goes and exactly which part of the Infinite Reality one observes. Rishis seemed to have a perfect control.> > > > > > Best regards,> > > Narasimha> > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -> > > Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ homam> > > Do Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ tarpana> > > Spirituality: http://groups. / group/vedic- wisdom> > > Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro. home.comcast. net> > > Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAst rologer.org> > > Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagan nath.org> > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -> > > > > > ---- rajarshi nandy <rajarshi14@ > wrote: > > > > Sorry the previous mail went off incomplete. > > > > > > > > Dear Sundeep,> > > > > > > > Let me mention some stuff from the diaries of Sri Shamacharun Lahiri (a self realized Yogi of the highest order) - it maybe of some help to you. He did mention in details about the process of creation as he saw it.> > > > > > > > As per him, at the beginning was the point of ultimate chaos. Then from there came the "vidhyut" of Akash. As this "Vidyut" interacted with the chaos, it produced some universal energies which are more commonly known as the universal deities like Shiva, Vishnu etc etc. Then came the "Vidyut" of vayu ( none of these are the actual physical elements as we see it, but more the essence of the element, hence his use of the word "vidyut" and " taranga") whose interaction with the chaos resulted in some more energy states. Thus, in this way came, Agni, Apa and Prithwi, each one resulting from the previous and each one resulting in some energy states, which in the end resulted in 33 crore possible states of energy.> > > > > > > > There is some lesson in there (at least for me), and I want to get at it.. I feel there may be some correlation between that and the 11-dimensional physics of super string theory too, but I get ahead of myself..> > > > > > > > This is a nice idea and I would like to know more about it.> > > > > > > > As much as I could fathom (I am no physicist, neither do I have the ability to penetrate the mathematics of the M-Theory), as it stands now, it is quite half formed. There being multiple theories of the String variety, adhered to by multiple physicists, the M-Theory (11 dimensional one) is one of the many which 'claim to explain' in parts some aspects of the physical world. Finding a correlation between this and the idea of the five elements, in my humble opinion, is still far fetched. I can understand some correlation between basic Quantum Mechanics, (at least the Copenhegan Interpretation) , non-locality etc, and the ideas of Indian mysticism, but a link between M-theory of panch-mahabhuta? !..> > > > > > > > Well, with the kind permission of Narasimha, I would like to know more about how exactly you can link these two, because I myself with my limited understand fail to see any viable correlation at all as of now, specially, since the M-theory is yet in a very nascent stage.> > > > > > > > The other thing one must think about is the basic nature of theoritical physics. Does physics describe reality? Or does it provide a model of reality? These two are different. Mathematics provides a tool/model to gauge reality. It need not be exactly as reality is. > > > > Which is why Richard Feynman once famously quoted that everyone knows that Quatum Mechanics works, but no one know what it really is!> > > > > > > > The idea of the pach mahabhuta and creation is almost the essence of everything. The day physics gets THAT deep, there would be really nothing more left to do. Physics is still quite far away from that stage.> > > > > > > > -Regards> > > > Rajarshi> > > > > > > > --- On Tue, 29/9/09, vedicastrostudent <vedicastrostudent@ > wrote:> > > > > > > > Dear Rajarshi,> > > > > > > > Not sure if I get the thrust of your point. Yes, sadhana is the only way to know this for sure. And so also for everything else that is below the reach of the senses (e.g. Atma, sookshma sarira etc). But we do read about them (all these things e.g Atma etc), and about the significance of the vedic gods anyway, dont we? They do offer a mild complement to sadhana, dont they? They do help make the mind more receptive toward the benefits of sadhana..> > > > > > > > Also wanted to assure you that I really want to know the answer to the question. I am not interested in a he-said/she- said type game (if perhaps that is what you were hinting at?). I am extremely curious as to why there is an order and not a parallelism, for e.g. why are the mahabhutas not simultaneously formed. There is some lesson in there (at least for me), and I want to get at it.. I feel there may be some correlation between that and the 11-dimensional physics of super string theory too, but I get ahead of myself..> > > > > > > > Regards,> > > > > > > > Sundeep> > > > > > > > , rajarshi nandy <rajarshi14@ ...> wrote:> > > > >> > > > > Dear Sundeep,> > > > > > > > > > With all due respect to your query, I wanted to ask, how does it matter? Can anyone here really know for sure which came after which? We can only speculate and guess and retrofit logic and quote one scripture vs another scripture. > > > > > > > > > > Only practical way to really find out the truth is sadhana. That too if we are destined to find out we will, or else no.> > > > > > > > > > -Regards> > > > > Rajarshi> > > > > > > > > > The upsurge (of consciousness) is Bhairava - Shiva Sutra> > > > > > > > > > --- On Tue, 29/9/09, vedicastrostudent <vedicastrostudent@ ...> wrote:> > > > > > > > > > vedicastrostudent <vedicastrostudent@ ...>> > > > > Order of Creation (of mahabhuta/tattwa) ?> > > > > > > > > > Tuesday, 29 September, 2009, 1:12 AM> > > > > > > > > > Dear Narasimhaji and others,> > > > > > > > > > In Taittiriya Upanishad (http://www.sacred- texts.com/ hin/sbe15/ sbe15034. htm), the following is the order of creation (Max Mueller interpretation) :> > > > > > > > > > "From that Self 2 (Brahman) sprang ether (âkâsa, that through which we hear); from ether air (that through which we hear and feel); from air fire (that through which we hear, feel, and see); from fire water (that through which we hear, feel, see, and taste); from water earth (that through which we hear, feel, see, taste, and smell)"> > > > > > > > > > This sounds logical to me in that I expected Akasa to be first and earth to be last. I have heard differing opinions though, perhaps in Sanjay Rathji's Brhat Nakshtra but since I dont have the book in front of me, I cant confirm. Do you agree with the interpretation above, if not what is your belief, source and justification?> > > > > > > > > > Thank you,> > > > > > > > > > Sundeep> Keep up with people you care about with India Mail. Learn how. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 1, 2009 Report Share Posted October 1, 2009 || OM TAT SAT || Dear Narasimha, " Reposting... " 3 Gunas, by inherent duality in nature, give rise to the 6 tattwas, that is as simple. Now, the spiritual law of duality is very well described by the two birds analogy, as well as the 3 gunas are very well mentioned in the upanishads. Isn't it ? > From visuddhi chakra to moolaadhaara chakra lie the elements of > ether, air, fire, water and earth as I mentioned. I only focused on > the last five stages. What do you mean by last 5 stages ? Where is the beginning and the end of the sushumna passing through 6 cerebro-spinal chakras ? In the physical body, it appears as a linear movement from the lowest mooladhara to the highest ajna chakra - but the nadis' emanating from these " Shad-chakras " - meet in a circular manner inside the Sahasrara Chakra (See the diagram of Astral Nadis' prepared by YogiRaj ShyamaCharan Lahiri, published in Gita Commentary by Yogananda). Thus, the highest Ajna is connected to the lowest Mooladhara and the awakening of one of them affects the other, a fact rather well-documented in Yoga books. A fact, required to understand why Ganesh, deity of Mooladhara, is worshipped first. > In Sahasrara chakra lies undifferentiated consciousness (Brahman or >Aatman), where there are no I-ness or any objectification. Just >below it, there are several lokas that people do not mention > normally. With every invocation of Gayatri Mantra, we mention 3 or 7 of these lokas. Don't we do it " Normally " ? In any case, we are not discussing about the actual experiences or undifferentiated consciousness, the 6 tattwas that cause creation are still very much differentiated in Nature. Patanjalis' Chitta Vrittis' correspond to the 5 tattwas and are all happening on the background of Chitta, the all-pervading 6th tattwa. The normal-human- experience happens by the 5 modifications/ movement of Chitta (finest creation). How would the Soul become aware of the more material Aakash Tattwa (and thus a single coherent self pervading the material physical body), if it were not standing behind the Chitta (SuperEther) ? Thus, all our experiences of matter are through non-material Chitta, and it doesn't imply that 6th tattwa doesn't exist. If you could calm all those modifications of Chitta, you would have your self-realized. > In Aajnaa chakra lies the primordial state of the universe where > there is just space and time, but no five elements. Nothing comes out from nothing. How can the lower tattwas evolve from higher tattwas, if even their subtle representations are purged from existence altogether ? Greatest of the Seers have already put down the scriptures in writing, so that people like us can benefit. Regards, Nitish , Narasimha PVR Rao <pvr wrote: > > Namaste, > > I am only addressing the five elements mentioned in upanishads. > > In Sahasrara chakra lies undifferentiated consciousness (Brahman or Aatman), where there are no I-ness or any objectification. Just below it, there are several lokas that people do not mention normally. In Aajnaa chakra lies the primordial state of the universe where there is just space and time, but no five elements. From visuddhi chakra to moolaadhaara chakra lie the elements of ether, air, fire, water and earth as I mentioned. I only focused on the last five stages. > > What happens between Sahasrara and Aajnaa is known only to greatest of seers. It is true that several yogis can be established in Sahasrara, where there is no ego and no objectification. However, very very very few can understand what happens in the chakras just below Sahasrara and above Aajnaa, where there is still I-ness and objectification, but at a very very high level that is beyond the play of elements. > > There is a lot more happening between Sahasrara and Aajnaa than elsewhere, but we are not well-equipped to understand it... > > Best regards, > Narasimha > > Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAstrologer.org/homam > Do Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAstrologer.org/tarpana > Spirituality: > Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro.home.comcast.net > Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAstrologer.org > Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagannath.org > > > ---- yeeahoo_99 <nitish.arya wrote: > > || OM TAT SAT || > > Dear Narasimha, > > You mentioned 5 tattwas, while there are 6 tattwas - that are associated with the 6 cerebro-spinal chakras - a result of all possible combination of 3 gunas of nature. > > > > Gunas Tattwa Chakras > > > > Satvic Tamas - SuperEther - Medulla > > Satvic Satva - Ether (Aakash tattwa) - Throat > > Satvic Rajas - Air (Vayu tattwa) - Heart > > Rajasic Rajas - Fire (Agni tattwa) - Navel > > Rajasic Tamas - Water (Jala tattwa) - Sacral > > Tamasic Tamas - Earth (Prithvi tattwa) - Coccygeal > > > > SuperEther > > 1. All pervading Prana from which Aakash tattwa is created - refer RajaYoga of Vivekananda. > > 2. Background of Aakash tattwa - Refer Gita Commentary of Yogananda > > > > It is the starting point if one begins to discuss about Creation in any sense... > > Your comments. > > Regards, > > Nitish > > > > , Narasimha PVR Rao <pvr@> wrote: > > > > > > Namaste Sundeep and Rajarshi, > > > > > > Yes, Pt Rath's astrology book " Brihat Nakshatra " gives a different order of creation starting with water and ending with the pair of ether and earth. It seems to be his extrapolation. > > > > > > What you quoted from Taittariya Upanishad is the traditional view that I am familiar with. Other scriptures refer to the same order of creation, including " Yoga Vaasishtham " , where Maharshi Vasishtha teaches creation, destruction and liberation to Lord Rama. > > > > > > * * * > > > > > > This Upanishadic understanding is also consistent with chakra based understanding of Tantra. The five chakras downwards from Visuddhi chakra to Moolaadhaara chakra represent ether, air, fire, water and earth. When Kundalini leaves Moolaadhaara, earth element within one is surrendered, i.e. all traces of earth element are effaced in one's self-awareness. When Kundalini leaves Swaadhishthaana, water element within one is surrendered, i.e. all traces of water element are effaced in one's self-awareness. And so on. > > > > > > By earth and water etc, don't just think of physical earth and physical water etc. Earth element shows a solid state of existence. Water element shows a flexible and fluid state of existence. For example, an idea that one " owns " a particular thing (e.g. a car, a house, spouse, some knowledge etc) is of solid state and made of earth element. An idea that one " needs " a particular thing (e.g. a car, a house, spouse, some knowledge etc) is of the nature of water element. Thus, different mental concepts and ideas can be mapped to the five elements. > > > > > > When one thinks of " I " , one perhaps thinks of a body that looks and feels in a particular way physically. Apart from the physical aspect, one may think of " I " as someone who has certain qualities, certain needs, certain belongings etc. All those concepts one has about who one is, form one's self-awareness and Kundalini represents that self-awareness. Kundalini cannot leave Moolaadhaara chakra, if *anything* that is *solid* in nature within one's cumulative idea of who one is is still remaining. Kundalini cannot leave Swaadhishthaana chakra, if *anything* that is *solid* or *fluid* in nature within one's cumulative idea of who one is is still remaining. And so on. > > > > > > Many people who talk about experiences of Kundalini in higher chakras are often talking merely about some amount of vaayus flowing in those chakras (which may still be a nice experience) and have *not* experienced Kundalini actually being there. IF Kundalini really leaves Moolaadhaara, one will not perceive a solid body, one will not have notions of owning anything. Similarly, as Kundalini moves up each chakra, each element is effaced in one's cumulative idea of who one is, at the physical as well as the subtle level of existence! To completely efface even one element (earth) from one's notion of self ( " I " ), even for a short duration of time, is not at all easy. > > > > > > The order in which elements are effaced as one progresses towards samadhi is - earth, water, fire, air and ether. If Kundalini again comes down, effaced elements return to work in the reverse order - ether, air, fire, water and earth. > > > > > > * * * > > > > > > Regarding physics and spiritual realities: > > > > > > > Does physics describe reality? > > > > > > Physics tries to describe/model reality at the gross physical level, as perceived by the external senses. However, one's mind can " perceive " things without the external senses playing a role. > > > > > > As a simple example, one may be asleep and get a dream, in which one's mind may " see " some people and " hear " a conversation between them. In another example, a yogi may be meditating with a mantra with intense focus and " see " some scenes and/or " hear " some things. These things cannot be perceived by the external senses and hence cannot be studied by modern science. > > > > > > It is reasonable to define reality as something that can be perceived by the external senses, because different people can experience the same reality using their senses individually and verify the observation. However, some experiences of the mind that cannot be perceived by senses are sometimes very powerful and have a huge, life-altering and sometimes liberating influence on people. Inability to study and model them is a big drawback of modern science. > > > > > > * * * > > > > > > One may categorize dreams and internal yogic experiences as imaginations or hallucinations, because there is no independent validation, and call them unworthy of a study. But there are cases that make one wonder. For example, see the following messages from the archives. > > > > > > Mystical experiences of mind and mantras (message 951) > > > /message/951 > > > > > > In the above message, one person had a specific yogic experience that was described in detail and another person seemed to know about it and supplied one tangible detail relating to the experience, suggesting that he too " observed " the experience of the first person, though it was beyond the external senses of either person! > > > > > > Re: Guru (message 391) > > > /message/391 > > > > > > In the above message also, one person had a specific yogic experience that was described in detail and another person seemed to know about it and supplied a couple of tangible details relating to the experience, suggesting that he too " observed " the experience of the first person, though it was beyond the external senses of either person! > > > > > > Internal god and external god (message 2498) > > > /message/2498 > > > > > > In the above message, one person had a specific yogic experience involving a deity and another person perceived with his external senses a vision involving the same deity, though others in the room could not perceive anything with their external senses, suggesting that the second person " observed " the experience of the first person through a specific prism. > > > > > > * * * > > > > > > Such examples cannot prove much, but they do suggest that perhaps *some* experiences that cannot be measured or perceived by the external senses are observable by others, though not everyone may be able to observe. Then, one cannot rule out the possibility of *some* experiences that cannot be measured or perceived by the external senses being a part of the " reality " that mind can access. > > > > > > But, how can modern science study it? > > > > > > Because the only thing that can be studied and measured is the reality involving the gross body and its senses, one may suggest that experiences of the subtle body may be studied by observing various parts of the gross physical body. For example, one can look at the nervous signals flowing through various parts of the brain and try to correlate them with the experiences of the subtle body. > > > > > > On the surface, it sounds like a great idea. But, it assumes that subtle body and causal body are redundant. Though there is some correspondence between what happens in the causal, subtle and gross bodies, it is a many-to-many mapping and NOT a one-to-one mapping, in which case the concept of causal and subtle bodies would be redundant, i.e. whatever they model can be moderled using just the gross body! > > > > > > If you drive through a neighborhood and observe the houses from the road, you can have *some* idea of what is going on. A particular house with a lot of lights and sound and many cars parked outside may be having a party. People in one particular house with no lights are probably out of town. But you can never be sure what is going on in the house, how many people are inside, what exactly they are doing etc, by merely looking at the house from outside. > > > > > > Similarly, by looking at the nervous signals in various points of the brain, you may be able to see some basic things, but not much. The experiences of the subtle mind are beyond your reach and study, if your tools are limited to the gross physical domain. > > > > > > * * * > > > > > > Unfortunately, modern science cannot study that part of the reality which is beyond the scope of external senses, unless scientists become yogis and develop mastery of the internal world. > > > > > > While rishis of ancient times had mastery of the internal world (which is the microcosm of the entire universe) and could observe any space-time point, even the greatest yogis of today cannot control their state completely. When Kundalini rises, it may go somewhere and one may experience some part of the Infinite Reality. But one cannot control exactly where Kundalini goes and exactly which part of the Infinite Reality one observes. Rishis seemed to have a perfect control. > > > > > > Best regards, > > > Narasimha > > > > > > Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAstrologer.org/homam > > > Do Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAstrologer.org/tarpana > > > Spirituality: > > > Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro.home.comcast.net > > > Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAstrologer.org > > > Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagannath.org > > > > > > > > > ---- rajarshi nandy <rajarshi14@> wrote: > > > > Sorry the previous mail went off incomplete. > > > > > > > > Dear Sundeep, > > > > > > > > Let me mention some stuff from the diaries of Sri Shamacharun Lahiri (a self realized Yogi of the highest order) - it maybe of some help to you. He did mention in details about the process of creation as he saw it. > > > > > > > > As per him, at the beginning was the point of ultimate chaos. Then from there came the " vidhyut " of Akash. As this " Vidyut " interacted with the chaos, it produced some universal energies which are more commonly known as the universal deities like Shiva, Vishnu etc etc. Then came the " Vidyut " of vayu ( none of these are the actual physical elements as we see it, but more the essence of the element, hence his use of the word " vidyut " and " taranga " ) whose interaction with the chaos resulted in some more energy states. Thus, in this way came, Agni, Apa and Prithwi, each one resulting from the previous and each one resulting in some energy states, which in the end resulted in 33 crore possible states of energy. > > > > > > > > There is some lesson in there (at least for me), and I want to get at it.. I feel there may be some correlation between that and the 11-dimensional physics of super string theory too, but I get ahead of myself.. > > > > > > > > This is a nice idea and I would like to know more about it. > > > > > > > > As much as I could fathom (I am no physicist, neither do I have the ability to penetrate the mathematics of the M-Theory), as it stands now, it is quite half formed. There being multiple theories of the String variety, adhered to by multiple physicists, the M-Theory (11 dimensional one) is one of the many which 'claim to explain' in parts some aspects of the physical world. Finding a correlation between this and the idea of the five elements, in my humble opinion, is still far fetched. I can understand some correlation between basic Quantum Mechanics, (at least the Copenhegan Interpretation), non-locality etc, and the ideas of Indian mysticism, but a link between M-theory of panch-mahabhuta?!.. > > > > > > > > Well, with the kind permission of Narasimha, I would like to know more about how exactly you can link these two, because I myself with my limited understand fail to see any viable correlation at all as of now, specially, since the M-theory is yet in a very nascent stage. > > > > > > > > The other thing one must think about is the basic nature of theoritical physics. Does physics describe reality? Or does it provide a model of reality? These two are different. Mathematics provides a tool/model to gauge reality. It need not be exactly as reality is. > > > > Which is why Richard Feynman once famously quoted that everyone knows that Quatum Mechanics works, but no one know what it really is! > > > > > > > > The idea of the pach mahabhuta and creation is almost the essence of everything. The day physics gets THAT deep, there would be really nothing more left to do. Physics is still quite far away from that stage. > > > > > > > > -Regards > > > > Rajarshi > > > > > > > > --- On Tue, 29/9/09, vedicastrostudent <vedicastrostudent@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Dear Rajarshi, > > > > > > > > Not sure if I get the thrust of your point. Yes, sadhana is the only way to know this for sure. And so also for everything else that is below the reach of the senses (e.g. Atma, sookshma sarira etc). But we do read about them (all these things e.g Atma etc), and about the significance of the vedic gods anyway, dont we? They do offer a mild complement to sadhana, dont they? They do help make the mind more receptive toward the benefits of sadhana.. > > > > > > > > Also wanted to assure you that I really want to know the answer to the question. I am not interested in a he-said/she- said type game (if perhaps that is what you were hinting at?). I am extremely curious as to why there is an order and not a parallelism, for e.g. why are the mahabhutas not simultaneously formed. There is some lesson in there (at least for me), and I want to get at it.. I feel there may be some correlation between that and the 11-dimensional physics of super string theory too, but I get ahead of myself.. > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > Sundeep > > > > > > > > , rajarshi nandy <rajarshi14@ ...> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Dear Sundeep, > > > > > > > > > > With all due respect to your query, I wanted to ask, how does it matter? Can anyone here really know for sure which came after which? We can only speculate and guess and retrofit logic and quote one scripture vs another scripture. > > > > > > > > > > Only practical way to really find out the truth is sadhana. That too if we are destined to find out we will, or else no. > > > > > > > > > > -Regards > > > > > Rajarshi > > > > > > > > > > The upsurge (of consciousness) is Bhairava - Shiva Sutra > > > > > > > > > > --- On Tue, 29/9/09, vedicastrostudent <vedicastrostudent@ ...> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > vedicastrostudent <vedicastrostudent@ ...> > > > > > Order of Creation (of mahabhuta/tattwa) ? > > > > > > > > > > Tuesday, 29 September, 2009, 1:12 AM > > > > > > > > > > Dear Narasimhaji and others, > > > > > > > > > > In Taittiriya Upanishad (http://www.sacred- texts.com/ hin/sbe15/ sbe15034. htm), the following is the order of creation (Max Mueller interpretation) : > > > > > > > > > > " From that Self 2 (Brahman) sprang ether (âkâsa, that through which we hear); from ether air (that through which we hear and feel); from air fire (that through which we hear, feel, and see); from fire water (that through which we hear, feel, see, and taste); from water earth (that through which we hear, feel, see, taste, and smell) " > > > > > > > > > > This sounds logical to me in that I expected Akasa to be first and earth to be last. I have heard differing opinions though, perhaps in Sanjay Rathji's Brhat Nakshtra but since I dont have the book in front of me, I cant confirm. Do you agree with the interpretation above, if not what is your belief, source and justification? > > > > > > > > > > Thank you, > > > > > > > > > > Sundeep > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 1, 2009 Report Share Posted October 1, 2009 Dear Utpalji, Nice query. Logically speaking, it maybe that "soul leaving the body" has does not mean mearging once self awareness into the Brahman. -Regards Rajarshi The upsurge (of consciousness) is Bhairava - Shiva Sutra--- On Thu, 1/10/09, vedic_pathak <vedic_pathak wrote: vedic_pathak <vedic_pathak Re: Order of Creation, Physics & Reality Date: Thursday, 1 October, 2009, 10:47 AM Pranaams,>In Sahasrara chakra lies undifferentiated consciousness (Brahman or >Aatman),where there are no I-ness or any objectification. Does it mean that when consciousness reaches Sahasraar Chakra, one merges in to Brahman and that is the same state which is named varyingly as Realisation/ Jeevan Mukta/Nirvikalpa Samaadhi/Merging in to brahaman etc...?Why i asked you this question is because, i am little confused here. if i remember correctly, in "Auto Biography of a Yogi", it is mentioned that only the souls who depart from Sahsraar are eligible to enter to Suvarnaa loka and then there they have to still work out the bondage of their Karana Shareera...Is it not true that Chetana reaching Sahsraar means *practically* end of journey.?How to reconcile with the above to seemingly different informations?Best Regards,Utpal, Narasimha PVR Rao <pvr wrote:>> Namaste,> > I am only addressing the five elements mentioned in upanishads.> > In Sahasrara chakra lies undifferentiated consciousness (Brahman or Aatman), where there are no I-ness or any objectification. Just below it, there are several lokas that people do not mention normally. In Aajnaa chakra lies the primordial state of the universe where there is just space and time, but no five elements. From visuddhi chakra to moolaadhaara chakra lie the elements of ether, air, fire, water and earth as I mentioned. I only focused on the last five stages.> > What happens between Sahasrara and Aajnaa is known only to greatest of seers. It is true that several yogis can be established in Sahasrara, where there is no ego and no objectification. However, very very very few can understand what happens in the chakras just below Sahasrara and above Aajnaa, where there is still I-ness and objectification, but at a very very high level that is beyond the play of elements.> > There is a lot more happening between Sahasrara and Aajnaa than elsewhere, but we are not well-equipped to understand it...> > Best regards,> Narasimha> ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -> Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ homam> Do Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ tarpana> Spirituality: http://groups. / group/vedic- wisdom> Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro. home.comcast. net> Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAst rologer.org> Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagan nath.org> ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -> > ---- yeeahoo_99 <nitish.arya@ ...> wrote: > > || OM TAT SAT ||> > Dear Narasimha, > > You mentioned 5 tattwas, while there are 6 tattwas - that are associated with the 6 cerebro-spinal chakras - a result of all possible combination of 3 gunas of nature.> > > > Gunas Tattwa Chakras> > > > Satvic Tamas - SuperEther - Medulla > > Satvic Satva - Ether (Aakash tattwa) - Throat> > Satvic Rajas - Air (Vayu tattwa) - Heart> > Rajasic Rajas - Fire (Agni tattwa) - Navel> > Rajasic Tamas - Water (Jala tattwa) - Sacral> > Tamasic Tamas - Earth (Prithvi tattwa) - Coccygeal> > > > SuperEther> > 1. All pervading Prana from which Aakash tattwa is created - refer RajaYoga of Vivekananda.> > 2. Background of Aakash tattwa - Refer Gita Commentary of Yogananda> > > > It is the starting point if one begins to discuss about Creation in any sense...> > Your comments.> > Regards,> > Nitish> > > > , Narasimha PVR Rao <pvr@> wrote:> > >> > > Namaste Sundeep and Rajarshi,> > > > > > Yes, Pt Rath's astrology book "Brihat Nakshatra" gives a different order of creation starting with water and ending with the pair of ether and earth. It seems to be his extrapolation.> > > > > > What you quoted from Taittariya Upanishad is the traditional view that I am familiar with. Other scriptures refer to the same order of creation, including "Yoga Vaasishtham" , where Maharshi Vasishtha teaches creation, destruction and liberation to Lord Rama.> > > > > > * * *> > > > > > This Upanishadic understanding is also consistent with chakra based understanding of Tantra. The five chakras downwards from Visuddhi chakra to Moolaadhaara chakra represent ether, air, fire, water and earth. When Kundalini leaves Moolaadhaara, earth element within one is surrendered, i.e. all traces of earth element are effaced in one's self-awareness. When Kundalini leaves Swaadhishthaana, water element within one is surrendered, i.e. all traces of water element are effaced in one's self-awareness. And so on.> > > > > > By earth and water etc, don't just think of physical earth and physical water etc. Earth element shows a solid state of existence. Water element shows a flexible and fluid state of existence. For example, an idea that one "owns" a particular thing (e.g. a car, a house, spouse, some knowledge etc) is of solid state and made of earth element. An idea that one "needs" a particular thing (e.g. a car, a house, spouse, some knowledge etc) is of the nature of water element. Thus, different mental concepts and ideas can be mapped to the five elements.> > > > > > When one thinks of "I", one perhaps thinks of a body that looks and feels in a particular way physically. Apart from the physical aspect, one may think of "I" as someone who has certain qualities, certain needs, certain belongings etc. All those concepts one has about who one is, form one's self-awareness and Kundalini represents that self-awareness. Kundalini cannot leave Moolaadhaara chakra, if *anything* that is *solid* in nature within one's cumulative idea of who one is is still remaining. Kundalini cannot leave Swaadhishthaana chakra, if *anything* that is *solid* or *fluid* in nature within one's cumulative idea of who one is is still remaining. And so on.> > > > > > Many people who talk about experiences of Kundalini in higher chakras are often talking merely about some amount of vaayus flowing in those chakras (which may still be a nice experience) and have *not* experienced Kundalini actually being there. IF Kundalini really leaves Moolaadhaara, one will not perceive a solid body, one will not have notions of owning anything. Similarly, as Kundalini moves up each chakra, each element is effaced in one's cumulative idea of who one is, at the physical as well as the subtle level of existence! To completely efface even one element (earth) from one's notion of self ("I"), even for a short duration of time, is not at all easy.> > > > > > The order in which elements are effaced as one progresses towards samadhi is - earth, water, fire, air and ether. If Kundalini again comes down, effaced elements return to work in the reverse order - ether, air, fire, water and earth.> > > > > > * * *> > > > > > Regarding physics and spiritual realities:> > > > > > > Does physics describe reality?> > > > > > Physics tries to describe/model reality at the gross physical level, as perceived by the external senses. However, one's mind can "perceive" things without the external senses playing a role.> > > > > > As a simple example, one may be asleep and get a dream, in which one's mind may "see" some people and "hear" a conversation between them. In another example, a yogi may be meditating with a mantra with intense focus and "see" some scenes and/or "hear" some things. These things cannot be perceived by the external senses and hence cannot be studied by modern science.> > > > > > It is reasonable to define reality as something that can be perceived by the external senses, because different people can experience the same reality using their senses individually and verify the observation. However, some experiences of the mind that cannot be perceived by senses are sometimes very powerful and have a huge, life-altering and sometimes liberating influence on people. Inability to study and model them is a big drawback of modern science.> > > > > > * * *> > > > > > One may categorize dreams and internal yogic experiences as imaginations or hallucinations, because there is no independent validation, and call them unworthy of a study. But there are cases that make one wonder. For example, see the following messages from the archives.> > > > > > Mystical experiences of mind and mantras (message 951)> > > http://groups. / group/vedic- wisdom/message/ 951> > > > > > In the above message, one person had a specific yogic experience that was described in detail and another person seemed to know about it and supplied one tangible detail relating to the experience, suggesting that he too "observed" the experience of the first person, though it was beyond the external senses of either person!> > > > > > Re: Guru (message 391)> > > http://groups. / group/vedic- wisdom/message/ 391> > > > > > In the above message also, one person had a specific yogic experience that was described in detail and another person seemed to know about it and supplied a couple of tangible details relating to the experience, suggesting that he too "observed" the experience of the first person, though it was beyond the external senses of either person!> > > > > > Internal god and external god (message 2498)> > > http://groups. / group/vedic- wisdom/message/ 2498> > > > > > In the above message, one person had a specific yogic experience involving a deity and another person perceived with his external senses a vision involving the same deity, though others in the room could not perceive anything with their external senses, suggesting that the second person "observed" the experience of the first person through a specific prism.> > > > > > * * *> > > > > > Such examples cannot prove much, but they do suggest that perhaps *some* experiences that cannot be measured or perceived by the external senses are observable by others, though not everyone may be able to observe. Then, one cannot rule out the possibility of *some* experiences that cannot be measured or perceived by the external senses being a part of the "reality" that mind can access.> > > > > > But, how can modern science study it?> > > > > > Because the only thing that can be studied and measured is the reality involving the gross body and its senses, one may suggest that experiences of the subtle body may be studied by observing various parts of the gross physical body. For example, one can look at the nervous signals flowing through various parts of the brain and try to correlate them with the experiences of the subtle body.> > > > > > On the surface, it sounds like a great idea. But, it assumes that subtle body and causal body are redundant. Though there is some correspondence between what happens in the causal, subtle and gross bodies, it is a many-to-many mapping and NOT a one-to-one mapping, in which case the concept of causal and subtle bodies would be redundant, i.e. whatever they model can be moderled using just the gross body!> > > > > > If you drive through a neighborhood and observe the houses from the road, you can have *some* idea of what is going on. A particular house with a lot of lights and sound and many cars parked outside may be having a party. People in one particular house with no lights are probably out of town. But you can never be sure what is going on in the house, how many people are inside, what exactly they are doing etc, by merely looking at the house from outside.> > > > > > Similarly, by looking at the nervous signals in various points of the brain, you may be able to see some basic things, but not much. The experiences of the subtle mind are beyond your reach and study, if your tools are limited to the gross physical domain.> > > > > > * * *> > > > > > Unfortunately, modern science cannot study that part of the reality which is beyond the scope of external senses, unless scientists become yogis and develop mastery of the internal world.> > > > > > While rishis of ancient times had mastery of the internal world (which is the microcosm of the entire universe) and could observe any space-time point, even the greatest yogis of today cannot control their state completely. When Kundalini rises, it may go somewhere and one may experience some part of the Infinite Reality. But one cannot control exactly where Kundalini goes and exactly which part of the Infinite Reality one observes. Rishis seemed to have a perfect control.> > > > > > Best regards,> > > Narasimha> > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -> > > Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ homam> > > Do Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ tarpana> > > Spirituality: http://groups. / group/vedic- wisdom> > > Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro. home.comcast. net> > > Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAst rologer.org> > > Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagan nath.org> > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -> > > > > > ---- rajarshi nandy <rajarshi14@ > wrote: > > > > Sorry the previous mail went off incomplete. > > > > > > > > Dear Sundeep,> > > > > > > > Let me mention some stuff from the diaries of Sri Shamacharun Lahiri (a self realized Yogi of the highest order) - it maybe of some help to you. He did mention in details about the process of creation as he saw it.> > > > > > > > As per him, at the beginning was the point of ultimate chaos. Then from there came the "vidhyut" of Akash. As this "Vidyut" interacted with the chaos, it produced some universal energies which are more commonly known as the universal deities like Shiva, Vishnu etc etc. Then came the "Vidyut" of vayu ( none of these are the actual physical elements as we see it, but more the essence of the element, hence his use of the word "vidyut" and " taranga") whose interaction with the chaos resulted in some more energy states. Thus, in this way came, Agni, Apa and Prithwi, each one resulting from the previous and each one resulting in some energy states, which in the end resulted in 33 crore possible states of energy.> > > > > > > > There is some lesson in there (at least for me), and I want to get at it.. I feel there may be some correlation between that and the 11-dimensional physics of super string theory too, but I get ahead of myself..> > > > > > > > This is a nice idea and I would like to know more about it.> > > > > > > > As much as I could fathom (I am no physicist, neither do I have the ability to penetrate the mathematics of the M-Theory), as it stands now, it is quite half formed. There being multiple theories of the String variety, adhered to by multiple physicists, the M-Theory (11 dimensional one) is one of the many which 'claim to explain' in parts some aspects of the physical world. Finding a correlation between this and the idea of the five elements, in my humble opinion, is still far fetched. I can understand some correlation between basic Quantum Mechanics, (at least the Copenhegan Interpretation) , non-locality etc, and the ideas of Indian mysticism, but a link between M-theory of panch-mahabhuta? !..> > > > > > > > Well, with the kind permission of Narasimha, I would like to know more about how exactly you can link these two, because I myself with my limited understand fail to see any viable correlation at all as of now, specially, since the M-theory is yet in a very nascent stage.> > > > > > > > The other thing one must think about is the basic nature of theoritical physics. Does physics describe reality? Or does it provide a model of reality? These two are different. Mathematics provides a tool/model to gauge reality. It need not be exactly as reality is. > > > > Which is why Richard Feynman once famously quoted that everyone knows that Quatum Mechanics works, but no one know what it really is!> > > > > > > > The idea of the pach mahabhuta and creation is almost the essence of everything. The day physics gets THAT deep, there would be really nothing more left to do. Physics is still quite far away from that stage.> > > > > > > > -Regards> > > > Rajarshi> > > > > > > > --- On Tue, 29/9/09, vedicastrostudent <vedicastrostudent@ > wrote:> > > > > > > > Dear Rajarshi,> > > > > > > > Not sure if I get the thrust of your point. Yes, sadhana is the only way to know this for sure. And so also for everything else that is below the reach of the senses (e.g. Atma, sookshma sarira etc). But we do read about them (all these things e.g Atma etc), and about the significance of the vedic gods anyway, dont we? They do offer a mild complement to sadhana, dont they? They do help make the mind more receptive toward the benefits of sadhana..> > > > > > > > Also wanted to assure you that I really want to know the answer to the question. I am not interested in a he-said/she- said type game (if perhaps that is what you were hinting at?). I am extremely curious as to why there is an order and not a parallelism, for e.g. why are the mahabhutas not simultaneously formed. There is some lesson in there (at least for me), and I want to get at it.. I feel there may be some correlation between that and the 11-dimensional physics of super string theory too, but I get ahead of myself..> > > > > > > > Regards,> > > > > > > > Sundeep> > > > > > > > , rajarshi nandy <rajarshi14@ ...> wrote:> > > > >> > > > > Dear Sundeep,> > > > > > > > > > With all due respect to your query, I wanted to ask, how does it matter? Can anyone here really know for sure which came after which? We can only speculate and guess and retrofit logic and quote one scripture vs another scripture. > > > > > > > > > > Only practical way to really find out the truth is sadhana. That too if we are destined to find out we will, or else no.> > > > > > > > > > -Regards> > > > > Rajarshi> > > > > > > > > > The upsurge (of consciousness) is Bhairava - Shiva Sutra> > > > > > > > > > --- On Tue, 29/9/09, vedicastrostudent <vedicastrostudent@ ...> wrote:> > > > > > > > > > vedicastrostudent <vedicastrostudent@ ...>> > > > > Order of Creation (of mahabhuta/tattwa) ?> > > > > > > > > > Tuesday, 29 September, 2009, 1:12 AM> > > > > > > > > > Dear Narasimhaji and others,> > > > > > > > > > In Taittiriya Upanishad (http://www.sacred- texts.com/ hin/sbe15/ sbe15034. htm), the following is the order of creation (Max Mueller interpretation) :> > > > > > > > > > "From that Self 2 (Brahman) sprang ether (âkâsa, that through which we hear); from ether air (that through which we hear and feel); from air fire (that through which we hear, feel, and see); from fire water (that through which we hear, feel, see, and taste); from water earth (that through which we hear, feel, see, taste, and smell)"> > > > > > > > > > This sounds logical to me in that I expected Akasa to be first and earth to be last. I have heard differing opinions though, perhaps in Sanjay Rathji's Brhat Nakshtra but since I dont have the book in front of me, I cant confirm. Do you agree with the interpretation above, if not what is your belief, source and justification?> > > > > > > > > > Thank you,> > > > > > > > > > Sundeep> Try the new India Homepage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 1, 2009 Report Share Posted October 1, 2009 || OM TAT SAT || Namaskar Rajarshi, I have not read the diaries of Lahiri Mahashaya, so lets drop all that " technicalities " out of the discussion. The specific diagram is in " God talks with Arjuna, Self-Realization Fellowship, Jaico Publishing House, 2002 " - Part -2 of that book. Anyways, the book is " Kundalini Tantra " by Swami Satyananda Saraswati of Bihar Yoga Vidyala. Google Search string is " awakening of mooladhara and ajna " and the link that will take you there is a google Cache link (copy and paste in your browser). http://74.125.153.132/search?q=cache:RxkKeFQ64NAJ:www.eng.vedanta.ru/library/kun\ dalini_tantra/3_practices_for_ajna_chakra.php+awakening+of+mooladhara+and+ajna & c\ d=5 & hl=en & ct=clnk & gl=in & client=firefox-a Here is the relevant Text: " ....Ajna and mooladhara chakras are closely related, and the awakening of one helps to awaken the other. Ideally, ajna should be awakened to some extent before mooladhara, in order to allow an unaffected perception of the energies manifested by mooladhara and the lower chakras. However, the awakening of mooladhara will help to further awaken ajna. In fact, the best way to bring about awakening of ajna is through the practices of moola bandha and ashwini mudra which are specific for mooladhara.... " Regarding the 6th tattwa there is nothing new to it, it already exists, Yogananda writes in his commentary the following: " ...Beyond the subtlest physical vibration (akasha, ether), Paramahansa Yogananda explained, is the superether, " a finer manifestation and therefore not classified as one of the physical vibratory elements (tattvas), of which there are only five-earth, water, fire, air, ether. Some yoga treatises define this tattwa as mind, or 'non-matter', as opposed to matter or gross vibration.... " > The tattwas are 5 in number as per multiple Hindu scriptures, both > Agamas/Nigamas as well as Upanishads. Which scriptures ? Quotes ? It is through Sankhya, that you can understand why Chitta is related to it. Anyways, if you are interested you may search for those yoga treatises yourself, even as I have already given enough explanation, though more can be given. As Narasimha knows Jyotish shastra also, he could probably figure out the rashi to which the 6th tattwa is attributed since I have already given the table out, so it is as real as it rises daily. Regards, Nitish , rajarshi nandy <rajarshi14 wrote: > > Dear Nitish, >  > Allow me interject in your conversation with Narasimha. >  > You mentioned: >  > Thus, the highest Ajna is connected to the lowest Mooladhara and the awakening of one of them affects the other, a fact rather well-documented in Yoga books. A fact, required to understand why Ganesh, deity of Mooladhara, is worshipped first. >  > Can you please elaborate on what you mean by the terms " awakening " and " affects " ? Let us be technically precise and not use terms loosely to avoid confusion. What is the " awakening " of a chakra? What does it mean by " affecting " ? >  > The diagrams, not just by Lahiri Mahasaya but even other books, explain the connection of the nadis etc, but no where in his description of spiritual progess (from the 26 dairies of Lahiri Mahasaya) does he say that awakening of the agya chakra will automatically awaken the mooladhara. If you can provide an exact quote with page number and name of the book, I will try and check. >  > He explains in details about the " granthi bhedans " before one goes into actually awakening any chakra for that matter. These granthis have a specific format in which they have to be pierced as per Lahiri Mahasaya and it is here that a connection is drawn between Agya and Mooladhara with Manipura in the centre. Not in the actual act of " awakening a chakra " , if I use the same definitions as used in the book by Lahiri Mahasaya himself. >  >  > Gunas, by inherent duality in nature, give rise to the 6 tattwas, that is as simple. Now, the spiritual law of duality is very well described by the two birds analogy, as well as the 3 gunas are very well mentioned in the upanishads. Isn't it ? >  >  > Can you quote a scripture which says there are 6 tattwas? Tattwa has a very specific technical meaning. When you say that Gunas by " inherent duality " in nature give rise to 6 tattwas, I guess you are using a simple multiplication of 3 x 2 and arriving at six. My question, then why not a simple 3 raised to the power 2 resulting in 9 tattwas? >  > No, this is not really a case of basic maths I presume. The scriptures are clear that there are exactly 5 tattwas, not more. Chitta is not a tattwa. >  > Thus, all our experiences of matter are through non-material Chitta, and it doesn't imply that 6th tattwa doesn't exist. >  > No one denies the existence of Chitta, but the scriptures do not bracket it as a " tattwa " . >  > The tattwas are 5 in number as per multiple Hindu scriptures, both Agamas/Nigamas as well as Upanishads. >  > -Regards >  Rajarshi > > >  >  >  > > > > > > The upsurge (of consciousness) is Bhairava - Shiva Sutra > > --- On Thu, 1/10/09, yeeahoo_99 <nitish.arya wrote: > > > yeeahoo_99 <nitish.arya > Re: Order of Creation, Physics & Reality > > Thursday, 1 October, 2009, 10:33 AM > > >  > > > > || OM TAT SAT || > Dear Narasimha, > 3 Gunas, by inherent duality in nature, give rise to the 6 tattwas, that is as simple. Now, the spiritual law of duality is very well described by the two birds analogy, as well as the 3 gunas are very well mentioned in the upanishads. Isn't it ? > > > From visuddhi chakra to moolaadhaara chakra lie the elements of > > ether, air, fire, water and earth as I mentioned. I only focused on > the last five stages. > > What do you mean by last 5 stages ? Where is the beginning and the end of the sushumna passing through 6 cerebro-spinal chakras ? > > In the physical body, it appears as a linear movement from the lowest mooladhara to the highest ajna chakra - but the nadis' emanating from these " Shad-chakras " - meet in a circular manner inside the Sahasrara Chakra (See the diagram of Astral Nadis' prepared by YogiRaj ShyamaCharan Lahiri, published in Gita Commentary by Yogananda). > > Thus, the highest Ajna is connected to the lowest Mooladhara and the awakening of one of them affects the other, a fact rather well-documented in Yoga books. A fact, required to understand why Ganesh, deity of Mooladhara, is worshipped first. > > > In Sahasrara chakra lies undifferentiated consciousness (Brahman or >Aatman), where there are no I-ness or any objectification. Just >below it, there are several lokas that people do not mention > > normally. > > With every invocation of Gayatri Mantra, we mention 3 or 7 of these lokas. Don't we do it " Normally " ? > > In any case, we are not discussing about the actual experiences or undifferentiated consciousness, the 6 tattwas that cause creation are still very much differentiated in Nature. > > Patanjalis' Chitta Vrittis' correspond to the 5 tattwas and are all happening on the background of Chitta, the all-pervading 6th tattwa. The normal-human- experience happens by the 5 modifications/ movement of Chitta (finest creation). > > How would the Soul become aware of the more material Aakash Tattwa (and thus a single coherent self pervading the material physical body), if it were not standing behind the Chitta (SuperEther) ? > > Thus, all our experiences of matter are through non-material Chitta, and it doesn't imply that 6th tattwa doesn't exist. If you could calm all those modifications of Chitta, you would have your self-realized. > > > In Aajnaa chakra lies the primordial state of the universe where > > there is just space and time, but no five elements. > > Nothing comes out from nothing. How can the lower tattwas evolve from higher tattwas, if even their subtle representations are purged from existence altogether ? > > Greatest of the Seers have already put down the scriptures in writing, so that people like us can benefit. > > Regards, > Nitish > > , Narasimha PVR Rao <pvr@> wrote: > > > > Namaste, > > > > I am only addressing the five elements mentioned in upanishads. > > > > In Sahasrara chakra lies undifferentiated consciousness (Brahman or Aatman), where there are no I-ness or any objectification. Just below it, there are several lokas that people do not mention normally. In Aajnaa chakra lies the primordial state of the universe where there is just space and time, but no five elements. From visuddhi chakra to moolaadhaara chakra lie the elements of ether, air, fire, water and earth as I mentioned. I only focused on the last five stages. > > > > What happens between Sahasrara and Aajnaa is known only to greatest of seers. It is true that several yogis can be established in Sahasrara, where there is no ego and no objectification. However, very very very few can understand what happens in the chakras just below Sahasrara and above Aajnaa, where there is still I-ness and objectification, but at a very very high level that is beyond the play of elements. > > > > There is a lot more happening between Sahasrara and Aajnaa than elsewhere, but we are not well-equipped to understand it... > > > > Best regards, > > Narasimha > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- - > > Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ homam > > Do Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ tarpana > > Spirituality: http://groups. / group/vedic- wisdom > > Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro. home.comcast. net > > Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAst rologer.org > > Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagan nath.org > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- - > > > > ---- yeeahoo_99 <nitish.arya@ ...> wrote: > > > || OM TAT SAT || > > > Dear Narasimha, > > > You mentioned 5 tattwas, while there are 6 tattwas - that are associated with the 6 cerebro-spinal chakras - a result of all possible combination of 3 gunas of nature. > > > > > > Gunas Tattwa Chakras > > > > > > Satvic Tamas - SuperEther - Medulla > > > Satvic Satva - Ether (Aakash tattwa) - Throat > > > Satvic Rajas - Air (Vayu tattwa) - Heart > > > Rajasic Rajas - Fire (Agni tattwa) - Navel > > > Rajasic Tamas - Water (Jala tattwa) - Sacral > > > Tamasic Tamas - Earth (Prithvi tattwa) - Coccygeal > > > > > > SuperEther > > > 1. All pervading Prana from which Aakash tattwa is created - refer RajaYoga of Vivekananda. > > > 2. Background of Aakash tattwa - Refer Gita Commentary of Yogananda > > > > > > It is the starting point if one begins to discuss about Creation in any sense... > > > Your comments. > > > Regards, > > > Nitish > > > > > > , Narasimha PVR Rao <pvr@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Namaste Sundeep and Rajarshi, > > > > > > > > Yes, Pt Rath's astrology book " Brihat Nakshatra " gives a different order of creation starting with water and ending with the pair of ether and earth. It seems to be his extrapolation. > > > > > > > > What you quoted from Taittariya Upanishad is the traditional view that I am familiar with. Other scriptures refer to the same order of creation, including " Yoga Vaasishtham " , where Maharshi Vasishtha teaches creation, destruction and liberation to Lord Rama. > > > > > > > > * * * > > > > > > > > This Upanishadic understanding is also consistent with chakra based understanding of Tantra. The five chakras downwards from Visuddhi chakra to Moolaadhaara chakra represent ether, air, fire, water and earth. When Kundalini leaves Moolaadhaara, earth element within one is surrendered, i.e. all traces of earth element are effaced in one's self-awareness. When Kundalini leaves Swaadhishthaana, water element within one is surrendered, i.e. all traces of water element are effaced in one's self-awareness. And so on. > > > > > > > > By earth and water etc, don't just think of physical earth and physical water etc. Earth element shows a solid state of existence. Water element shows a flexible and fluid state of existence. For example, an idea that one " owns " a particular thing (e.g. a car, a house, spouse, some knowledge etc) is of solid state and made of earth element. An idea that one " needs " a particular thing (e.g. a car, a house, spouse, some knowledge etc) is of the nature of water element. Thus, different mental concepts and ideas can be mapped to the five elements. > > > > > > > > When one thinks of " I " , one perhaps thinks of a body that looks and feels in a particular way physically. Apart from the physical aspect, one may think of " I " as someone who has certain qualities, certain needs, certain belongings etc. All those concepts one has about who one is, form one's self-awareness and Kundalini represents that self-awareness. Kundalini cannot leave Moolaadhaara chakra, if *anything* that is *solid* in nature within one's cumulative idea of who one is is still remaining. Kundalini cannot leave Swaadhishthaana chakra, if *anything* that is *solid* or *fluid* in nature within one's cumulative idea of who one is is still remaining. And so on. > > > > > > > > Many people who talk about experiences of Kundalini in higher chakras are often talking merely about some amount of vaayus flowing in those chakras (which may still be a nice experience) and have *not* experienced Kundalini actually being there. IF Kundalini really leaves Moolaadhaara, one will not perceive a solid body, one will not have notions of owning anything. Similarly, as Kundalini moves up each chakra, each element is effaced in one's cumulative idea of who one is, at the physical as well as the subtle level of existence! To completely efface even one element (earth) from one's notion of self ( " I " ), even for a short duration of time, is not at all easy. > > > > > > > > The order in which elements are effaced as one progresses towards samadhi is - earth, water, fire, air and ether. If Kundalini again comes down, effaced elements return to work in the reverse order - ether, air, fire, water and earth. > > > > > > > > * * * > > > > > > > > Regarding physics and spiritual realities: > > > > > > > > > Does physics describe reality? > > > > > > > > Physics tries to describe/model reality at the gross physical level, as perceived by the external senses. However, one's mind can " perceive " things without the external senses playing a role. > > > > > > > > As a simple example, one may be asleep and get a dream, in which one's mind may " see " some people and " hear " a conversation between them. In another example, a yogi may be meditating with a mantra with intense focus and " see " some scenes and/or " hear " some things. These things cannot be perceived by the external senses and hence cannot be studied by modern science. > > > > > > > > It is reasonable to define reality as something that can be perceived by the external senses, because different people can experience the same reality using their senses individually and verify the observation. However, some experiences of the mind that cannot be perceived by senses are sometimes very powerful and have a huge, life-altering and sometimes liberating influence on people. Inability to study and model them is a big drawback of modern science. > > > > > > > > * * * > > > > > > > > One may categorize dreams and internal yogic experiences as imaginations or hallucinations, because there is no independent validation, and call them unworthy of a study. But there are cases that make one wonder. For example, see the following messages from the archives. > > > > > > > > Mystical experiences of mind and mantras (message 951) > > > > http://groups. / group/vedic- wisdom/message/ 951 > > > > > > > > In the above message, one person had a specific yogic experience that was described in detail and another person seemed to know about it and supplied one tangible detail relating to the experience, suggesting that he too " observed " the experience of the first person, though it was beyond the external senses of either person! > > > > > > > > Re: Guru (message 391) > > > > http://groups. / group/vedic- wisdom/message/ 391 > > > > > > > > In the above message also, one person had a specific yogic experience that was described in detail and another person seemed to know about it and supplied a couple of tangible details relating to the experience, suggesting that he too " observed " the experience of the first person, though it was beyond the external senses of either person! > > > > > > > > Internal god and external god (message 2498) > > > > http://groups. / group/vedic- wisdom/message/ 2498 > > > > > > > > In the above message, one person had a specific yogic experience involving a deity and another person perceived with his external senses a vision involving the same deity, though others in the room could not perceive anything with their external senses, suggesting that the second person " observed " the experience of the first person through a specific prism. > > > > > > > > * * * > > > > > > > > Such examples cannot prove much, but they do suggest that perhaps *some* experiences that cannot be measured or perceived by the external senses are observable by others, though not everyone may be able to observe. Then, one cannot rule out the possibility of *some* experiences that cannot be measured or perceived by the external senses being a part of the " reality " that mind can access. > > > > > > > > But, how can modern science study it? > > > > > > > > Because the only thing that can be studied and measured is the reality involving the gross body and its senses, one may suggest that experiences of the subtle body may be studied by observing various parts of the gross physical body. For example, one can look at the nervous signals flowing through various parts of the brain and try to correlate them with the experiences of the subtle body. > > > > > > > > On the surface, it sounds like a great idea. But, it assumes that subtle body and causal body are redundant. Though there is some correspondence between what happens in the causal, subtle and gross bodies, it is a many-to-many mapping and NOT a one-to-one mapping, in which case the concept of causal and subtle bodies would be redundant, i.e. whatever they model can be moderled using just the gross body! > > > > > > > > If you drive through a neighborhood and observe the houses from the road, you can have *some* idea of what is going on. A particular house with a lot of lights and sound and many cars parked outside may be having a party. People in one particular house with no lights are probably out of town. But you can never be sure what is going on in the house, how many people are inside, what exactly they are doing etc, by merely looking at the house from outside. > > > > > > > > Similarly, by looking at the nervous signals in various points of the brain, you may be able to see some basic things, but not much. The experiences of the subtle mind are beyond your reach and study, if your tools are limited to the gross physical domain. > > > > > > > > * * * > > > > > > > > Unfortunately, modern science cannot study that part of the reality which is beyond the scope of external senses, unless scientists become yogis and develop mastery of the internal world. > > > > > > > > While rishis of ancient times had mastery of the internal world (which is the microcosm of the entire universe) and could observe any space-time point, even the greatest yogis of today cannot control their state completely. When Kundalini rises, it may go somewhere and one may experience some part of the Infinite Reality. But one cannot control exactly where Kundalini goes and exactly which part of the Infinite Reality one observes. Rishis seemed to have a perfect control. > > > > > > > > Best regards, > > > > Narasimha > > > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- - > > > > Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ homam > > > > Do Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ tarpana > > > > Spirituality: http://groups. / group/vedic- wisdom > > > > Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro. home.comcast. net > > > > Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAst rologer.org > > > > Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagan nath.org > > > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- - > > > > > > > > ---- rajarshi nandy <rajarshi14@ > wrote: > > > > > Sorry the previous mail went off incomplete. > > > > > > > > > > Dear Sundeep, > > > > > > > > > > Let me mention some stuff from the diaries of Sri Shamacharun Lahiri (a self realized Yogi of the highest order) - it maybe of some help to you. He did mention in details about the process of creation as he saw it. > > > > > > > > > > As per him, at the beginning was the point of ultimate chaos. Then from there came the " vidhyut " of Akash. As this " Vidyut " interacted with the chaos, it produced some universal energies which are more commonly known as the universal deities like Shiva, Vishnu etc etc. Then came the " Vidyut " of vayu ( none of these are the actual physical elements as we see it, but more the essence of the element, hence his use of the word " vidyut " and " taranga " ) whose interaction with the chaos resulted in some more energy states. Thus, in this way came, Agni, Apa and Prithwi, each one resulting from the previous and each one resulting in some energy states, which in the end resulted in 33 crore possible states of energy. > > > > > > > > > > There is some lesson in there (at least for me), and I want to get at it.. I feel there may be some correlation between that and the 11-dimensional physics of super string theory too, but I get ahead of myself.. > > > > > > > > > > This is a nice idea and I would like to know more about it. > > > > > > > > > > As much as I could fathom (I am no physicist, neither do I have the ability to penetrate the mathematics of the M-Theory), as it stands now, it is quite half formed. There being multiple theories of the String variety, adhered to by multiple physicists, the M-Theory (11 dimensional one) is one of the many which 'claim to explain' in parts some aspects of the physical world. Finding a correlation between this and the idea of the five elements, in my humble opinion, is still far fetched. I can understand some correlation between basic Quantum Mechanics, (at least the Copenhegan Interpretation) , non-locality etc, and the ideas of Indian mysticism, but a link between M-theory of panch-mahabhuta? !.. > > > > > > > > > > Well, with the kind permission of Narasimha, I would like to know more about how exactly you can link these two, because I myself with my limited understand fail to see any viable correlation at all as of now, specially, since the M-theory is yet in a very nascent stage. > > > > > > > > > > The other thing one must think about is the basic nature of theoritical physics. Does physics describe reality? Or does it provide a model of reality? These two are different. Mathematics provides a tool/model to gauge reality. It need not be exactly as reality is. > > > > > Which is why Richard Feynman once famously quoted that everyone knows that Quatum Mechanics works, but no one know what it really is! > > > > > > > > > > The idea of the pach mahabhuta and creation is almost the essence of everything. The day physics gets THAT deep, there would be really nothing more left to do. Physics is still quite far away from that stage. > > > > > > > > > > -Regards > > > > > Rajarshi > > > > > > > > > > --- On Tue, 29/9/09, vedicastrostudent <vedicastrostudent@ > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Dear Rajarshi, > > > > > > > > > > Not sure if I get the thrust of your point. Yes, sadhana is the only way to know this for sure. And so also for everything else that is below the reach of the senses (e.g. Atma, sookshma sarira etc). But we do read about them (all these things e.g Atma etc), and about the significance of the vedic gods anyway, dont we? They do offer a mild complement to sadhana, dont they? They do help make the mind more receptive toward the benefits of sadhana.. > > > > > > > > > > Also wanted to assure you that I really want to know the answer to the question. I am not interested in a he-said/she- said type game (if perhaps that is what you were hinting at?). I am extremely curious as to why there is an order and not a parallelism, for e.g. why are the mahabhutas not simultaneously formed. There is some lesson in there (at least for me), and I want to get at it.. I feel there may be some correlation between that and the 11-dimensional physics of super string theory too, but I get ahead of myself.. > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > > > Sundeep > > > > > > > > > > , rajarshi nandy <rajarshi14@ ....> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Sundeep, > > > > > > > > > > > > With all due respect to your query, I wanted to ask, how does it matter? Can anyone here really know for sure which came after which? We can only speculate and guess and retrofit logic and quote one scripture vs another scripture. > > > > > > > > > > > > Only practical way to really find out the truth is sadhana. That too if we are destined to find out we will, or else no. > > > > > > > > > > > > -Regards > > > > > > Rajarshi > > > > > > > > > > > > The upsurge (of consciousness) is Bhairava - Shiva Sutra > > > > > > > > > > > > --- On Tue, 29/9/09, vedicastrostudent <vedicastrostudent@ ...> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > vedicastrostudent <vedicastrostudent@ ...> > > > > > > Order of Creation (of mahabhuta/tattwa) ? > > > > > > > > > > > > Tuesday, 29 September, 2009, 1:12 AM > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Narasimhaji and others, > > > > > > > > > > > > In Taittiriya Upanishad (http://www.sacred- texts.com/ hin/sbe15/ sbe15034. htm), the following is the order of creation (Max Mueller interpretation) : > > > > > > > > > > > > " From that Self 2 (Brahman) sprang ether (ÃÆ'¢kÃÆ'¢sa, that through which we hear); from ether air (that through which we hear and feel); from air fire (that through which we hear, feel, and see); from fire water (that through which we hear, feel, see, and taste); from water earth (that through which we hear, feel, see, taste, and smell) " > > > > > > > > > > > > This sounds logical to me in that I expected Akasa to be first and earth to be last. I have heard differing opinions though, perhaps in Sanjay Rathji's Brhat Nakshtra but since I dont have the book in front of me, I cant confirm. Do you agree with the interpretation above, if not what is your belief, source and justification? > > > > > > > > > > > > Thank you, > > > > > > > > > > > > Sundeep > > > > > > > > > > > > > Connect more, do more and share more with India Mail. Learn more. http://in.overview.mail./ > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 1, 2009 Report Share Posted October 1, 2009 Dear Nitish, Please find some more comments from my side mentioned below.-Regards Rajarshi The upsurge (of consciousness) is Bhairava - Shiva Sutra--- On Thu, 1/10/09, yeeahoo_99 <nitish.arya wrote: yeeahoo_99 <nitish.arya Re: Order of Creation, Physics & Reality Date: Thursday, 1 October, 2009, 5:52 PM || OM TAT SAT ||Namaskar Rajarshi,I have not read the diaries of Lahiri Mahashaya, so lets drop all that "technicalities" out of the discussion. The specific diagram is in "God talks with Arjuna, Self-Realization Fellowship, Jaico Publishing House, 2002" - Part -2 of that book. Well, I have seen the diagram you are refering to. Technicalities, I feel, should not be dropped, because in that case the conversation will become too hazy. Further, one may use the same term to mean something else and keep needlessly arguing over a non issue. Precise, clear definitions are the first step in a meaningful dialogue.Here is the relevant Text:"....Ajna and mooladhara chakras are closely related, and the awakening of one helps to awaken the other. Ideally, ajna should be awakened to some extent before mooladhara, in order to allow an unaffected perception of the energies manifested by mooladhara and the lower chakras. However, the awakening of mooladhara will help to further awaken ajna. In fact, the best way to bring about awakening of ajna is through the practices of moola bandha and ashwini mudra which are specific for mooladhara.. .." Well, thanks for the quote. However, this does not say that "awakening" of one will automatically "awaken" the other. It says, in an ideal case one should "awaken" Agya chakra to some extent before trying to awaken Mooladhara chakra. In a lot of people chakras remain "awakened in various degrees"without any conscinous effort. Rarely would an individual appear who have absolutely zero awakening of all chakras. In most cases, "partially awakenend" chakras do exist, but I am not sure if that is of any significant help in practical spirituality. Plus, this is one of the possible paths of progess in Yoga, not the only one possible. Hence, we should not jump to conclusions which are not explicitly stated. A fact, required to understand why Ganesh, deity of Mooladhara, is worshipped first. Ganesha is worshipped first because it presides over the Mooladhara, not because mooladhara has a connection with Agya. Regarding the 6th tattwa there is nothing new to it, it already exists, Yogananda writes in his commentary the following:"...Beyond the subtlest physical vibration (akasha, ether), Paramahansa Yogananda explained, is the superether," a finer manifestation and therefore not classified as one of the physical vibratory elements (tattvas), of which there are only five-earth, water, fire, air, ether. Some yoga treatises define this tattwa as mind, or 'non-matter' , as opposed to matter or gross vibration... ." I am sorry, but the above quote is a little vague. It no where mentions that Chitta is a 6th tattwa. What it does it says about the 5 gross elements and "a finer manifestation". Maybe the intented audience for this passage was one who is not intellectually aware of the basic idea of five creative elements. Otherwise, the "super-ether" needs more clarity. Is it prakiriti? It is Chitta? Is it really sixth or does the six have more subsets? Is he calling it a vague six because we cannot be aware of the higher tattwas beyond the five, therefore clubbing everything together into one? As you mentioned Samkhya, it uses a calssification of the universe in 24 tattwas with 5 which cause physical manifestations to occur. It is still not 6 by any measure. Again in Kasmiri Shaivism, they define 36 tattwas! That is why the need to be technically precise so that we may not misunderstand each other. > The tattwas are 5 in number as per multiple Hindu scriptures, both > Agamas/Nigamas as well as Upanishads.Which scriptures ? Quotes ? Check the quotation given by Sundeep right at the begining of this set of mails. Are you questioning the veracity of scriptures or the fact that they mention creation is caused by five gross elements? It is through Sankhya, that you can understand why Chitta is related to it. As I said before, no one is denying the existence of Chitta. One is however questioning whether Chitta is a '6th element' . If you take Samkhya, there are 24 elements, of which 5 are basic. And the rest are subtle. So when normal creation is spoken of, it is spoken off in terms of 5 elements and not 6. When the essence of spirituality is spoken off right upto the state of God, then we go into 24 or 36 (depending on your classification). Further, in the 36 element lists, the "suddha-tattwas" are defined as unknowable from this plane of existence. As Narasimha knows Jyotish shastra also, he could probably figure out the rashi to which the 6th tattwa is attributed since I have already given the table out, so it is as real as it rises daily. Umm, with due respect, no it is not yet easy. Lot of hazy areas yet. Kindly check above. Regards,Nitish, rajarshi nandy <rajarshi14@ ...> wrote:>> Dear Nitish,>  > Allow me interject in your conversation with Narasimha.>  > You mentioned:>  > Thus, the highest Ajna is connected to the lowest Mooladhara and the awakening of one of them affects the other, a fact rather well-documented in Yoga books. A fact, required to understand why Ganesh, deity of Mooladhara, is worshipped first.>  > Can you please elaborate on what you mean by the terms "awakening" and "affects"? Let us be technically precise and not use terms loosely to avoid confusion. What is the "awakening" of a chakra? What does it mean by "affecting"?>  > The diagrams, not just by Lahiri Mahasaya but even other books, explain the connection of the nadis etc, but no where in his description of spiritual progess (from the 26 dairies of Lahiri Mahasaya) does he say that awakening of the agya chakra will automatically awaken the mooladhara. If you can provide an exact quote with page number and name of the book, I will try and check. >  > He explains in details about the "granthi bhedans" before one goes into actually awakening any chakra for that matter. These granthis have a specific format in which they have to be pierced as per Lahiri Mahasaya and it is here that a connection is drawn between Agya and Mooladhara with Manipura in the centre. Not in the actual act of "awakening a chakra", if I use the same definitions as used in the book by Lahiri Mahasaya himself.>  >  > Gunas, by inherent duality in nature, give rise to the 6 tattwas, that is as simple. Now, the spiritual law of duality is very well described by the two birds analogy, as well as the 3 gunas are very well mentioned in the upanishads. Isn't it ?>  >  > Can you quote a scripture which says there are 6 tattwas? Tattwa has a very specific technical meaning. When you say that Gunas by "inherent duality" in nature give rise to 6 tattwas, I guess you are using a simple multiplication of 3 x 2 and arriving at six. My question, then why not a simple 3 raised to the power 2 resulting in 9 tattwas?>  > No, this is not really a case of basic maths I presume. The scriptures are clear that there are exactly 5 tattwas, not more. Chitta is not a tattwa. >  > Thus, all our experiences of matter are through non-material Chitta, and it doesn't imply that 6th tattwa doesn't exist. >  > No one denies the existence of Chitta, but the scriptures do not bracket it as a "tattwa". >  > The tattwas are 5 in number as per multiple Hindu scriptures, both Agamas/Nigamas as well as Upanishads.>  > -Regards>  Rajarshi> > >  >  >  > > > > > > The upsurge (of consciousness) is Bhairava - Shiva Sutra> > --- On Thu, 1/10/09, yeeahoo_99 <nitish.arya@ ...> wrote:> > > yeeahoo_99 <nitish.arya@ ...>> Re: Order of Creation, Physics & Reality> > Thursday, 1 October, 2009, 10:33 AM> > >  > > > > || OM TAT SAT ||> Dear Narasimha,> 3 Gunas, by inherent duality in nature, give rise to the 6 tattwas, that is as simple. Now, the spiritual law of duality is very well described by the two birds analogy, as well as the 3 gunas are very well mentioned in the upanishads. Isn't it ?> > > From visuddhi chakra to moolaadhaara chakra lie the elements of > > ether, air, fire, water and earth as I mentioned. I only focused on > the last five stages.> > What do you mean by last 5 stages ? Where is the beginning and the end of the sushumna passing through 6 cerebro-spinal chakras ?> > In the physical body, it appears as a linear movement from the lowest mooladhara to the highest ajna chakra - but the nadis' emanating from these "Shad-chakras" - meet in a circular manner inside the Sahasrara Chakra (See the diagram of Astral Nadis' prepared by YogiRaj ShyamaCharan Lahiri, published in Gita Commentary by Yogananda).> > Thus, the highest Ajna is connected to the lowest Mooladhara and the awakening of one of them affects the other, a fact rather well-documented in Yoga books. A fact, required to understand why Ganesh, deity of Mooladhara, is worshipped first.> > > In Sahasrara chakra lies undifferentiated consciousness (Brahman or >Aatman), where there are no I-ness or any objectification. Just >below it, there are several lokas that people do not mention > > normally.> > With every invocation of Gayatri Mantra, we mention 3 or 7 of these lokas. Don't we do it "Normally" ? > > In any case, we are not discussing about the actual experiences or undifferentiated consciousness, the 6 tattwas that cause creation are still very much differentiated in Nature.> > Patanjalis' Chitta Vrittis' correspond to the 5 tattwas and are all happening on the background of Chitta, the all-pervading 6th tattwa. The normal-human- experience happens by the 5 modifications/ movement of Chitta (finest creation).> > How would the Soul become aware of the more material Aakash Tattwa (and thus a single coherent self pervading the material physical body), if it were not standing behind the Chitta (SuperEther) ?> > Thus, all our experiences of matter are through non-material Chitta, and it doesn't imply that 6th tattwa doesn't exist. If you could calm all those modifications of Chitta, you would have your self-realized.> > > In Aajnaa chakra lies the primordial state of the universe where > > there is just space and time, but no five elements. > > Nothing comes out from nothing. How can the lower tattwas evolve from higher tattwas, if even their subtle representations are purged from existence altogether ?> > Greatest of the Seers have already put down the scriptures in writing, so that people like us can benefit.> > Regards,> Nitish> > , Narasimha PVR Rao <pvr@> wrote:> >> > Namaste,> > > > I am only addressing the five elements mentioned in upanishads.> > > > In Sahasrara chakra lies undifferentiated consciousness (Brahman or Aatman), where there are no I-ness or any objectification. Just below it, there are several lokas that people do not mention normally. In Aajnaa chakra lies the primordial state of the universe where there is just space and time, but no five elements. From visuddhi chakra to moolaadhaara chakra lie the elements of ether, air, fire, water and earth as I mentioned. I only focused on the last five stages.> > > > What happens between Sahasrara and Aajnaa is known only to greatest of seers. It is true that several yogis can be established in Sahasrara, where there is no ego and no objectification. However, very very very few can understand what happens in the chakras just below Sahasrara and above Aajnaa, where there is still I-ness and objectification, but at a very very high level that is beyond the play of elements.> > > > There is a lot more happening between Sahasrara and Aajnaa than elsewhere, but we are not well-equipped to understand it...> > > > Best regards,> > Narasimha> > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -> > Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ homam> > Do Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ tarpana> > Spirituality: http://groups. / group/vedic- wisdom> > Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro. home.comcast. net> > Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAst rologer.org> > Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagan nath.org> > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -> > > > ---- yeeahoo_99 <nitish.arya@ ...> wrote: > > > || OM TAT SAT ||> > > Dear Narasimha, > > > You mentioned 5 tattwas, while there are 6 tattwas - that are associated with the 6 cerebro-spinal chakras - a result of all possible combination of 3 gunas of nature.> > > > > > Gunas Tattwa Chakras> > > > > > Satvic Tamas - SuperEther - Medulla > > > Satvic Satva - Ether (Aakash tattwa) - Throat> > > Satvic Rajas - Air (Vayu tattwa) - Heart> > > Rajasic Rajas - Fire (Agni tattwa) - Navel> > > Rajasic Tamas - Water (Jala tattwa) - Sacral> > > Tamasic Tamas - Earth (Prithvi tattwa) - Coccygeal> > > > > > SuperEther> > > 1. All pervading Prana from which Aakash tattwa is created - refer RajaYoga of Vivekananda.> > > 2. Background of Aakash tattwa - Refer Gita Commentary of Yogananda> > > > > > It is the starting point if one begins to discuss about Creation in any sense...> > > Your comments.> > > Regards,> > > Nitish> > > > > > , Narasimha PVR Rao <pvr@> wrote:> > > >> > > > Namaste Sundeep and Rajarshi,> > > > > > > > Yes, Pt Rath's astrology book "Brihat Nakshatra" gives a different order of creation starting with water and ending with the pair of ether and earth. It seems to be his extrapolation.> > > > > > > > What you quoted from Taittariya Upanishad is the traditional view that I am familiar with. Other scriptures refer to the same order of creation, including "Yoga Vaasishtham" , where Maharshi Vasishtha teaches creation, destruction and liberation to Lord Rama.> > > > > > > > * * *> > > > > > > > This Upanishadic understanding is also consistent with chakra based understanding of Tantra. The five chakras downwards from Visuddhi chakra to Moolaadhaara chakra represent ether, air, fire, water and earth. When Kundalini leaves Moolaadhaara, earth element within one is surrendered, i.e. all traces of earth element are effaced in one's self-awareness. When Kundalini leaves Swaadhishthaana, water element within one is surrendered, i.e. all traces of water element are effaced in one's self-awareness. And so on.> > > > > > > > By earth and water etc, don't just think of physical earth and physical water etc. Earth element shows a solid state of existence. Water element shows a flexible and fluid state of existence. For example, an idea that one "owns" a particular thing (e.g. a car, a house, spouse, some knowledge etc) is of solid state and made of earth element. An idea that one "needs" a particular thing (e.g. a car, a house, spouse, some knowledge etc) is of the nature of water element. Thus, different mental concepts and ideas can be mapped to the five elements.> > > > > > > > When one thinks of "I", one perhaps thinks of a body that looks and feels in a particular way physically. Apart from the physical aspect, one may think of "I" as someone who has certain qualities, certain needs, certain belongings etc. All those concepts one has about who one is, form one's self-awareness and Kundalini represents that self-awareness. Kundalini cannot leave Moolaadhaara chakra, if *anything* that is *solid* in nature within one's cumulative idea of who one is is still remaining. Kundalini cannot leave Swaadhishthaana chakra, if *anything* that is *solid* or *fluid* in nature within one's cumulative idea of who one is is still remaining. And so on.> > > > > > > > Many people who talk about experiences of Kundalini in higher chakras are often talking merely about some amount of vaayus flowing in those chakras (which may still be a nice experience) and have *not* experienced Kundalini actually being there. IF Kundalini really leaves Moolaadhaara, one will not perceive a solid body, one will not have notions of owning anything. Similarly, as Kundalini moves up each chakra, each element is effaced in one's cumulative idea of who one is, at the physical as well as the subtle level of existence! To completely efface even one element (earth) from one's notion of self ("I"), even for a short duration of time, is not at all easy.> > > > > > > > The order in which elements are effaced as one progresses towards samadhi is - earth, water, fire, air and ether. If Kundalini again comes down, effaced elements return to work in the reverse order - ether, air, fire, water and earth.> > > > > > > > * * *> > > > > > > > Regarding physics and spiritual realities:> > > > > > > > > Does physics describe reality?> > > > > > > > Physics tries to describe/model reality at the gross physical level, as perceived by the external senses. However, one's mind can "perceive" things without the external senses playing a role.> > > > > > > > As a simple example, one may be asleep and get a dream, in which one's mind may "see" some people and "hear" a conversation between them. In another example, a yogi may be meditating with a mantra with intense focus and "see" some scenes and/or "hear" some things. These things cannot be perceived by the external senses and hence cannot be studied by modern science.> > > > > > > > It is reasonable to define reality as something that can be perceived by the external senses, because different people can experience the same reality using their senses individually and verify the observation. However, some experiences of the mind that cannot be perceived by senses are sometimes very powerful and have a huge, life-altering and sometimes liberating influence on people. Inability to study and model them is a big drawback of modern science.> > > > > > > > * * *> > > > > > > > One may categorize dreams and internal yogic experiences as imaginations or hallucinations, because there is no independent validation, and call them unworthy of a study. But there are cases that make one wonder. For example, see the following messages from the archives.> > > > > > > > Mystical experiences of mind and mantras (message 951)> > > > http://groups. / group/vedic- wisdom/message/ 951> > > > > > > > In the above message, one person had a specific yogic experience that was described in detail and another person seemed to know about it and supplied one tangible detail relating to the experience, suggesting that he too "observed" the experience of the first person, though it was beyond the external senses of either person!> > > > > > > > Re: Guru (message 391)> > > > http://groups. / group/vedic- wisdom/message/ 391> > > > > > > > In the above message also, one person had a specific yogic experience that was described in detail and another person seemed to know about it and supplied a couple of tangible details relating to the experience, suggesting that he too "observed" the experience of the first person, though it was beyond the external senses of either person!> > > > > > > > Internal god and external god (message 2498)> > > > http://groups. / group/vedic- wisdom/message/ 2498> > > > > > > > In the above message, one person had a specific yogic experience involving a deity and another person perceived with his external senses a vision involving the same deity, though others in the room could not perceive anything with their external senses, suggesting that the second person "observed" the experience of the first person through a specific prism.> > > > > > > > * * *> > > > > > > > Such examples cannot prove much, but they do suggest that perhaps *some* experiences that cannot be measured or perceived by the external senses are observable by others, though not everyone may be able to observe. Then, one cannot rule out the possibility of *some* experiences that cannot be measured or perceived by the external senses being a part of the "reality" that mind can access.> > > > > > > > But, how can modern science study it?> > > > > > > > Because the only thing that can be studied and measured is the reality involving the gross body and its senses, one may suggest that experiences of the subtle body may be studied by observing various parts of the gross physical body. For example, one can look at the nervous signals flowing through various parts of the brain and try to correlate them with the experiences of the subtle body.> > > > > > > > On the surface, it sounds like a great idea. But, it assumes that subtle body and causal body are redundant. Though there is some correspondence between what happens in the causal, subtle and gross bodies, it is a many-to-many mapping and NOT a one-to-one mapping, in which case the concept of causal and subtle bodies would be redundant, i.e. whatever they model can be moderled using just the gross body!> > > > > > > > If you drive through a neighborhood and observe the houses from the road, you can have *some* idea of what is going on. A particular house with a lot of lights and sound and many cars parked outside may be having a party. People in one particular house with no lights are probably out of town. But you can never be sure what is going on in the house, how many people are inside, what exactly they are doing etc, by merely looking at the house from outside.> > > > > > > > Similarly, by looking at the nervous signals in various points of the brain, you may be able to see some basic things, but not much. The experiences of the subtle mind are beyond your reach and study, if your tools are limited to the gross physical domain.> > > > > > > > * * *> > > > > > > > Unfortunately, modern science cannot study that part of the reality which is beyond the scope of external senses, unless scientists become yogis and develop mastery of the internal world.> > > > > > > > While rishis of ancient times had mastery of the internal world (which is the microcosm of the entire universe) and could observe any space-time point, even the greatest yogis of today cannot control their state completely. When Kundalini rises, it may go somewhere and one may experience some part of the Infinite Reality. But one cannot control exactly where Kundalini goes and exactly which part of the Infinite Reality one observes. Rishis seemed to have a perfect control.> > > > > > > > Best regards,> > > > Narasimha> > > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -> > > > Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ homam> > > > Do Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ tarpana> > > > Spirituality: http://groups. / group/vedic- wisdom> > > > Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro. home.comcast. net> > > > Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAst rologer.org> > > > Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagan nath.org> > > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -> > > > > > > > ---- rajarshi nandy <rajarshi14@ > wrote: > > > > > Sorry the previous mail went off incomplete. > > > > > > > > > > Dear Sundeep,> > > > > > > > > > Let me mention some stuff from the diaries of Sri Shamacharun Lahiri (a self realized Yogi of the highest order) - it maybe of some help to you. He did mention in details about the process of creation as he saw it.> > > > > > > > > > As per him, at the beginning was the point of ultimate chaos. Then from there came the "vidhyut" of Akash. As this "Vidyut" interacted with the chaos, it produced some universal energies which are more commonly known as the universal deities like Shiva, Vishnu etc etc. Then came the "Vidyut" of vayu ( none of these are the actual physical elements as we see it, but more the essence of the element, hence his use of the word "vidyut" and " taranga") whose interaction with the chaos resulted in some more energy states. Thus, in this way came, Agni, Apa and Prithwi, each one resulting from the previous and each one resulting in some energy states, which in the end resulted in 33 crore possible states of energy.> > > > > > > > > > There is some lesson in there (at least for me), and I want to get at it.. I feel there may be some correlation between that and the 11-dimensional physics of super string theory too, but I get ahead of myself..> > > > > > > > > > This is a nice idea and I would like to know more about it.> > > > > > > > > > As much as I could fathom (I am no physicist, neither do I have the ability to penetrate the mathematics of the M-Theory), as it stands now, it is quite half formed. There being multiple theories of the String variety, adhered to by multiple physicists, the M-Theory (11 dimensional one) is one of the many which 'claim to explain' in parts some aspects of the physical world. Finding a correlation between this and the idea of the five elements, in my humble opinion, is still far fetched. I can understand some correlation between basic Quantum Mechanics, (at least the Copenhegan Interpretation) , non-locality etc, and the ideas of Indian mysticism, but a link between M-theory of panch-mahabhuta? !..> > > > > > > > > > Well, with the kind permission of Narasimha, I would like to know more about how exactly you can link these two, because I myself with my limited understand fail to see any viable correlation at all as of now, specially, since the M-theory is yet in a very nascent stage.> > > > > > > > > > The other thing one must think about is the basic nature of theoritical physics. Does physics describe reality? Or does it provide a model of reality? These two are different. Mathematics provides a tool/model to gauge reality. It need not be exactly as reality is. > > > > > Which is why Richard Feynman once famously quoted that everyone knows that Quatum Mechanics works, but no one know what it really is!> > > > > > > > > > The idea of the pach mahabhuta and creation is almost the essence of everything. The day physics gets THAT deep, there would be really nothing more left to do. Physics is still quite far away from that stage.> > > > > > > > > > -Regards> > > > > Rajarshi> > > > > > > > > > --- On Tue, 29/9/09, vedicastrostudent <vedicastrostudent@ > wrote:> > > > > > > > > > Dear Rajarshi,> > > > > > > > > > Not sure if I get the thrust of your point. Yes, sadhana is the only way to know this for sure. And so also for everything else that is below the reach of the senses (e.g. Atma, sookshma sarira etc). But we do read about them (all these things e.g Atma etc), and about the significance of the vedic gods anyway, dont we? They do offer a mild complement to sadhana, dont they? They do help make the mind more receptive toward the benefits of sadhana..> > > > > > > > > > Also wanted to assure you that I really want to know the answer to the question. I am not interested in a he-said/she- said type game (if perhaps that is what you were hinting at?). I am extremely curious as to why there is an order and not a parallelism, for e.g. why are the mahabhutas not simultaneously formed. There is some lesson in there (at least for me), and I want to get at it.. I feel there may be some correlation between that and the 11-dimensional physics of super string theory too, but I get ahead of myself..> > > > > > > > > > Regards,> > > > > > > > > > Sundeep> > > > > > > > > > , rajarshi nandy <rajarshi14@ ...> wrote:> > > > > >> > > > > > Dear Sundeep,> > > > > > > > > > > > With all due respect to your query, I wanted to ask, how does it matter? Can anyone here really know for sure which came after which? We can only speculate and guess and retrofit logic and quote one scripture vs another scripture. > > > > > > > > > > > > Only practical way to really find out the truth is sadhana. That too if we are destined to find out we will, or else no.> > > > > > > > > > > > -Regards> > > > > > Rajarshi> > > > > > > > > > > > The upsurge (of consciousness) is Bhairava - Shiva Sutra> > > > > > > > > > > > --- On Tue, 29/9/09, vedicastrostudent <vedicastrostudent@ ...> wrote:> > > > > > > > > > > > vedicastrostudent <vedicastrostudent@ ...>> > > > > > Order of Creation (of mahabhuta/tattwa) ?> > > > > > > > > > > > Tuesday, 29 September, 2009, 1:12 AM> > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Narasimhaji and others,> > > > > > > > > > > > In Taittiriya Upanishad (http://www.sacred- texts.com/ hin/sbe15/ sbe15034. htm), the following is the order of creation (Max Mueller interpretation) :> > > > > > > > > > > > "From that Self 2 (Brahman) sprang ether (ÃÆ'¢kÃÆ'¢sa, that through which we hear); from ether air (that through which we hear and feel); from air fire (that through which we hear, feel, and see); from fire water (that through which we hear, feel, see, and taste); from water earth (that through which we hear, feel, see, taste, and smell)"> > > > > > > > > > > > This sounds logical to me in that I expected Akasa to be first and earth to be last. I have heard differing opinions though, perhaps in Sanjay Rathji's Brhat Nakshtra but since I dont have the book in front of me, I cant confirm. Do you agree with the interpretation above, if not what is your belief, source and justification?> > > > > > > > > > > > Thank you,> > > > > > > > > > > > Sundeep> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Connect more, do more and share more with India Mail. Learn more. http://in.overview. mail.. com/> Try the new India Homepage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 1, 2009 Report Share Posted October 1, 2009 || OM TAT SAT || Namaskar Rajarshi, Like all of us, you have picked up some pointers about the nature of things which is all the knowledge available to you, but what you want to know is the complete picture. As a rule of thumb, if one begins his study from a biased point of view, he will never have the complete picture, even if he is given all the relevant pointers. Why do you think I would paint the complete picture, somebody has already painted it time and again in scriptures, but you seem to fail to read it ? > If you take Samkhya, there are 24 elements, of which 5 are basic. > And the rest are subtle. So when normal creation is spoken of, it > is spoken off in terms of 5 elements and not 6. Despite all the knowledge that you have - it is evident that you have not studied Sankhya thoroughly. 6 x 4 = 24 It actually refers to 6 tattwas - Where are the 4 antahkaranas' coming from NaraSimha - and why are they called AntahKaranas' at all ? Are your doubts over that Sankhya mentions about the 6th tattwa ? Given the amount of discord and contradictions amongst the scriptural interpretations and authorities, Badrayana had to write " Brahma Sutras " . If you are discerning enough and re-read all the scriptures you have ever read, you will most certainly figure out that every scripture has mentioned about the 6th tattwa everywhere. All we need is to rise above the dogma propounded by a lot of people around us who have selfish motives, and keep working in the correct direction. Vivekananda, mentioned it, but had not coined the term " superether " for this 6th tattwa, while Yogananda was not a Jnana Yogi - but I take his word as scriptural authority given his level of self-realization. > When you say that Gunas by " inherent duality " in nature give rise > to 6 tattwas, I guess you are using a simple multiplication of 3 x > 2 and arriving at six. Also, what is so wrong with a simple multiplication where multiplication is required ? Do you know what is " Law of Duality " ? > Umm, with due respect, no it is not yet easy. Lot of hazy areas > yet. Kindly check above. Do you know Jyotish ? Didn't I mention that Narasimha could probably figure it out ? Let him reply at his own accord. BTW, don't really want to go into kriya yoga of lahiri mahashaya, because it is better learnt from a teacher than discussed. > " ....Ajna and mooladhara chakras are closely related, and the awakening of one helps to awaken the other. What is any other possible meaning of this line than that the two chakras awaken each other and are related ? Ganesha is worshipped first because mooladhara is connected with Ajna chakra and the breathing process involves these two chakras (HaM-SaH). The breath connection makes it the most suitable place to connect the highest and lowest expressions of God-consciousness, from brahma to a worm - every living creature breathes! I hope this explicitly clarifies. Regards, Nitish , rajarshi nandy <rajarshi14 wrote: > > Dear Nitish, >  > Please find some more comments from my side mentioned below. > > -Regards >  Rajarshi > > The upsurge (of consciousness) is Bhairava - Shiva Sutra > > --- On Thu, 1/10/09, yeeahoo_99 <nitish.arya wrote: > > > yeeahoo_99 <nitish.arya > Re: Order of Creation, Physics & Reality > > Thursday, 1 October, 2009, 5:52 PM > > >  > > > > || OM TAT SAT || > Namaskar Rajarshi, > > I have not read the diaries of Lahiri Mahashaya, so lets drop all that " technicalities " out of the discussion. The specific diagram is in " God talks with Arjuna, Self-Realization Fellowship, Jaico Publishing House, 2002 " - Part -2 of that book. >  > Well, I have seen the diagram you are refering to. >  > Technicalities, I feel, should not be dropped, because in that case the conversation will become too hazy. Further, one may use the same term to mean something else and keep needlessly arguing over a non issue. Precise, clear definitions are the first step in a meaningful dialogue. > > > Here is the relevant Text: > > " ....Ajna and mooladhara chakras are closely related, and the awakening of one helps to awaken the other. Ideally, ajna should be awakened to some extent before mooladhara, in order to allow an unaffected perception of the energies manifested by mooladhara and the lower chakras. However, the awakening of mooladhara will help to further awaken ajna. In fact, the best way to bring about awakening of ajna is through the practices of moola bandha and ashwini mudra which are specific for mooladhara.. .. " > > Well, thanks for the quote. However, this does not say that " awakening " of one will automatically " awaken " the other. It says, in an ideal case one should " awaken " Agya chakra to some extent before trying to awaken Mooladhara chakra. >  > In a lot of people chakras remain " awakened in various degrees " without any conscinous effort. Rarely would an individual appear who have absolutely zero awakening of all chakras. In most cases, " partially awakenend " chakras do exist, but I am not sure if that is of any significant help in practical spirituality. >  > Plus, this is one of the possible paths of progess in Yoga, not the only one possible. Hence, we should not jump to conclusions which are not explicitly stated. >  > A fact, required to understand why Ganesh, deity of Mooladhara, is worshipped first. >  > > Ganesha is worshipped first because it presides over the Mooladhara, not because mooladhara has a connection with Agya. >  > Regarding the 6th tattwa there is nothing new to it, it already exists, Yogananda writes in his commentary the following: > > " ...Beyond the subtlest physical vibration (akasha, ether), Paramahansa Yogananda explained, is the superether, " a finer manifestation and therefore not classified as one of the physical vibratory elements (tattvas), of which there are only five-earth, water, fire, air, ether. Some yoga treatises define this tattwa as mind, or 'non-matter' , as opposed to matter or gross vibration... . " > > I am sorry, but the above quote is a little vague. It no where mentions that Chitta is a 6th tattwa. What it does it says about the 5 gross elements and " a finer manifestation " . Maybe the intented audience for this passage was one who is not intellectually aware of the basic idea of five creative elements. Otherwise, the " super-ether " needs more clarity. Is it prakiriti? It is Chitta? Is it really sixth or does the six have more subsets? Is he calling it a vague six because we cannot be aware of the higher tattwas beyond the five, therefore clubbing everything together into one? >  > As you mentioned Samkhya, it uses a calssification of the universe in 24 tattwas with 5 which cause physical manifestations to occur. It is still not 6 by any measure. >  > Again in Kasmiri Shaivism, they define 36 tattwas! That is why the need to be technically precise so that we may not misunderstand each other. >  > > The tattwas are 5 in number as per multiple Hindu scriptures, both > Agamas/Nigamas as well as Upanishads. > > Which scriptures ? Quotes ? >  > Check the quotation given by Sundeep right at the begining of this set of mails. Are you questioning the veracity of scriptures or the fact that they mention creation is caused by five gross elements? > > > It is through Sankhya, that you can understand why Chitta is related to it. >  > As I said before, no one is denying the existence of Chitta. One is however questioning whether Chitta is a '6th element' . If you take Samkhya, there are 24 elements, of which 5 are basic. And the rest are subtle. So when normal creation is spoken of, it is spoken off in terms of 5 elements and not 6. When the essence of spirituality is spoken off right upto the state of God, then we go into 24 or 36 (depending on your classification). Further, in the 36 element lists, the " suddha-tattwas " are defined as unknowable from this plane of existence. >  >  > As Narasimha knows Jyotish shastra also, he could probably figure out the rashi to which the 6th tattwa is attributed since I have already given the table out, so it is as real as it rises daily. > > Umm, with due respect, no it is not yet easy. Lot of hazy areas yet. Kindly check above. >  > > Regards, > Nitish > > , rajarshi nandy <rajarshi14@ ...> wrote: > > > > Dear Nitish, > >  > > Allow me interject in your conversation with Narasimha. > >  > > You mentioned: > >  > > Thus, the highest Ajna is connected to the lowest Mooladhara and the awakening of one of them affects the other, a fact rather well-documented in Yoga books. A fact, required to understand why Ganesh, deity of Mooladhara, is worshipped first. > >  > > Can you please elaborate on what you mean by the terms " awakening " and " affects " ? Let us be technically precise and not use terms loosely to avoid confusion. What is the " awakening " of a chakra? What does it mean by " affecting " ? > >  > > The diagrams, not just by Lahiri Mahasaya but even other books, explain the connection of the nadis etc, but no where in his description of spiritual progess (from the 26 dairies of Lahiri Mahasaya) does he say that awakening of the agya chakra will automatically awaken the mooladhara. If you can provide an exact quote with page number and name of the book, I will try and check. > >  > > He explains in details about the " granthi bhedans " before one goes into actually awakening any chakra for that matter. These granthis have a specific format in which they have to be pierced as per Lahiri Mahasaya and it is here that a connection is drawn between Agya and Mooladhara with Manipura in the centre. Not in the actual act of " awakening a chakra " , if I use the same definitions as used in the book by Lahiri Mahasaya himself. > >  > >  > > Gunas, by inherent duality in nature, give rise to the 6 tattwas, that is as simple. Now, the spiritual law of duality is very well described by the two birds analogy, as well as the 3 gunas are very well mentioned in the upanishads. Isn't it ? > >  > >  > > Can you quote a scripture which says there are 6 tattwas? Tattwa has a very specific technical meaning. When you say that Gunas by " inherent duality " in nature give rise to 6 tattwas, I guess you are using a simple multiplication of 3 x 2 and arriving at six. My question, then why not a simple 3 raised to the power 2 resulting in 9 tattwas? > >  > > No, this is not really a case of basic maths I presume. The scriptures are clear that there are exactly 5 tattwas, not more. Chitta is not a tattwa. > >  > > Thus, all our experiences of matter are through non-material Chitta, and it doesn't imply that 6th tattwa doesn't exist. > >  > > No one denies the existence of Chitta, but the scriptures do not bracket it as a " tattwa " . > >  > > The tattwas are 5 in number as per multiple Hindu scriptures, both Agamas/Nigamas as well as Upanishads. > >  > > -Regards > >  Rajarshi > > > > > >  > >  > >  > > > > > > > > > > > > The upsurge (of consciousness) is Bhairava - Shiva Sutra > > > > --- On Thu, 1/10/09, yeeahoo_99 <nitish.arya@ ...> wrote: > > > > > > yeeahoo_99 <nitish.arya@ ...> > > Re: Order of Creation, Physics & Reality > > > > Thursday, 1 October, 2009, 10:33 AM > > > > > >  > > > > > > > > || OM TAT SAT || > > Dear Narasimha, > > 3 Gunas, by inherent duality in nature, give rise to the 6 tattwas, that is as simple. Now, the spiritual law of duality is very well described by the two birds analogy, as well as the 3 gunas are very well mentioned in the upanishads. Isn't it ? > > > > > From visuddhi chakra to moolaadhaara chakra lie the elements of > > > ether, air, fire, water and earth as I mentioned. I only focused on > the last five stages. > > > > What do you mean by last 5 stages ? Where is the beginning and the end of the sushumna passing through 6 cerebro-spinal chakras ? > > > > In the physical body, it appears as a linear movement from the lowest mooladhara to the highest ajna chakra - but the nadis' emanating from these " Shad-chakras " - meet in a circular manner inside the Sahasrara Chakra (See the diagram of Astral Nadis' prepared by YogiRaj ShyamaCharan Lahiri, published in Gita Commentary by Yogananda). > > > > Thus, the highest Ajna is connected to the lowest Mooladhara and the awakening of one of them affects the other, a fact rather well-documented in Yoga books. A fact, required to understand why Ganesh, deity of Mooladhara, is worshipped first. > > > > > In Sahasrara chakra lies undifferentiated consciousness (Brahman or >Aatman), where there are no I-ness or any objectification. Just >below it, there are several lokas that people do not mention > > > normally. > > > > With every invocation of Gayatri Mantra, we mention 3 or 7 of these lokas. Don't we do it " Normally " ? > > > > In any case, we are not discussing about the actual experiences or undifferentiated consciousness, the 6 tattwas that cause creation are still very much differentiated in Nature. > > > > Patanjalis' Chitta Vrittis' correspond to the 5 tattwas and are all happening on the background of Chitta, the all-pervading 6th tattwa. The normal-human- experience happens by the 5 modifications/ movement of Chitta (finest creation). > > > > How would the Soul become aware of the more material Aakash Tattwa (and thus a single coherent self pervading the material physical body), if it were not standing behind the Chitta (SuperEther) ? > > > > Thus, all our experiences of matter are through non-material Chitta, and it doesn't imply that 6th tattwa doesn't exist. If you could calm all those modifications of Chitta, you would have your self-realized. > > > > > In Aajnaa chakra lies the primordial state of the universe where > > > there is just space and time, but no five elements. > > > > Nothing comes out from nothing. How can the lower tattwas evolve from higher tattwas, if even their subtle representations are purged from existence altogether ? > > > > Greatest of the Seers have already put down the scriptures in writing, so that people like us can benefit. > > > > Regards, > > Nitish > > > > , Narasimha PVR Rao <pvr@> wrote: > > > > > > Namaste, > > > > > > I am only addressing the five elements mentioned in upanishads. > > > > > > In Sahasrara chakra lies undifferentiated consciousness (Brahman or Aatman), where there are no I-ness or any objectification. Just below it, there are several lokas that people do not mention normally. In Aajnaa chakra lies the primordial state of the universe where there is just space and time, but no five elements. From visuddhi chakra to moolaadhaara chakra lie the elements of ether, air, fire, water and earth as I mentioned. I only focused on the last five stages. > > > > > > What happens between Sahasrara and Aajnaa is known only to greatest of seers. It is true that several yogis can be established in Sahasrara, where there is no ego and no objectification. However, very very very few can understand what happens in the chakras just below Sahasrara and above Aajnaa, where there is still I-ness and objectification, but at a very very high level that is beyond the play of elements. > > > > > > There is a lot more happening between Sahasrara and Aajnaa than elsewhere, but we are not well-equipped to understand it... > > > > > > Best regards, > > > Narasimha > > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- - > > > Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ homam > > > Do Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ tarpana > > > Spirituality: http://groups. / group/vedic- wisdom > > > Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro. home.comcast. net > > > Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAst rologer.org > > > Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagan nath.org > > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- - > > > > > > ---- yeeahoo_99 <nitish.arya@ ...> wrote: > > > > || OM TAT SAT || > > > > Dear Narasimha, > > > > You mentioned 5 tattwas, while there are 6 tattwas - that are associated with the 6 cerebro-spinal chakras - a result of all possible combination of 3 gunas of nature. > > > > > > > > Gunas Tattwa Chakras > > > > > > > > Satvic Tamas - SuperEther - Medulla > > > > Satvic Satva - Ether (Aakash tattwa) - Throat > > > > Satvic Rajas - Air (Vayu tattwa) - Heart > > > > Rajasic Rajas - Fire (Agni tattwa) - Navel > > > > Rajasic Tamas - Water (Jala tattwa) - Sacral > > > > Tamasic Tamas - Earth (Prithvi tattwa) - Coccygeal > > > > > > > > SuperEther > > > > 1. All pervading Prana from which Aakash tattwa is created - refer RajaYoga of Vivekananda. > > > > 2. Background of Aakash tattwa - Refer Gita Commentary of Yogananda > > > > > > > > It is the starting point if one begins to discuss about Creation in any sense... > > > > Your comments. > > > > Regards, > > > > Nitish > > > > > > > > , Narasimha PVR Rao <pvr@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Namaste Sundeep and Rajarshi, > > > > > > > > > > Yes, Pt Rath's astrology book " Brihat Nakshatra " gives a different order of creation starting with water and ending with the pair of ether and earth. It seems to be his extrapolation. > > > > > > > > > > What you quoted from Taittariya Upanishad is the traditional view that I am familiar with. Other scriptures refer to the same order of creation, including " Yoga Vaasishtham " , where Maharshi Vasishtha teaches creation, destruction and liberation to Lord Rama. > > > > > > > > > > * * * > > > > > > > > > > This Upanishadic understanding is also consistent with chakra based understanding of Tantra. The five chakras downwards from Visuddhi chakra to Moolaadhaara chakra represent ether, air, fire, water and earth. When Kundalini leaves Moolaadhaara, earth element within one is surrendered, i.e. all traces of earth element are effaced in one's self-awareness. When Kundalini leaves Swaadhishthaana, water element within one is surrendered, i.e. all traces of water element are effaced in one's self-awareness. And so on. > > > > > > > > > > By earth and water etc, don't just think of physical earth and physical water etc. Earth element shows a solid state of existence. Water element shows a flexible and fluid state of existence. For example, an idea that one " owns " a particular thing (e.g. a car, a house, spouse, some knowledge etc) is of solid state and made of earth element. An idea that one " needs " a particular thing (e.g. a car, a house, spouse, some knowledge etc) is of the nature of water element. Thus, different mental concepts and ideas can be mapped to the five elements. > > > > > > > > > > When one thinks of " I " , one perhaps thinks of a body that looks and feels in a particular way physically. Apart from the physical aspect, one may think of " I " as someone who has certain qualities, certain needs, certain belongings etc. All those concepts one has about who one is, form one's self-awareness and Kundalini represents that self-awareness. Kundalini cannot leave Moolaadhaara chakra, if *anything* that is *solid* in nature within one's cumulative idea of who one is is still remaining. Kundalini cannot leave Swaadhishthaana chakra, if *anything* that is *solid* or *fluid* in nature within one's cumulative idea of who one is is still remaining. And so on. > > > > > > > > > > Many people who talk about experiences of Kundalini in higher chakras are often talking merely about some amount of vaayus flowing in those chakras (which may still be a nice experience) and have *not* experienced Kundalini actually being there. IF Kundalini really leaves Moolaadhaara, one will not perceive a solid body, one will not have notions of owning anything. Similarly, as Kundalini moves up each chakra, each element is effaced in one's cumulative idea of who one is, at the physical as well as the subtle level of existence! To completely efface even one element (earth) from one's notion of self ( " I " ), even for a short duration of time, is not at all easy. > > > > > > > > > > The order in which elements are effaced as one progresses towards samadhi is - earth, water, fire, air and ether. If Kundalini again comes down, effaced elements return to work in the reverse order - ether, air, fire, water and earth. > > > > > > > > > > * * * > > > > > > > > > > Regarding physics and spiritual realities: > > > > > > > > > > > Does physics describe reality? > > > > > > > > > > Physics tries to describe/model reality at the gross physical level, as perceived by the external senses. However, one's mind can " perceive " things without the external senses playing a role. > > > > > > > > > > As a simple example, one may be asleep and get a dream, in which one's mind may " see " some people and " hear " a conversation between them. In another example, a yogi may be meditating with a mantra with intense focus and " see " some scenes and/or " hear " some things. These things cannot be perceived by the external senses and hence cannot be studied by modern science. > > > > > > > > > > It is reasonable to define reality as something that can be perceived by the external senses, because different people can experience the same reality using their senses individually and verify the observation. However, some experiences of the mind that cannot be perceived by senses are sometimes very powerful and have a huge, life-altering and sometimes liberating influence on people. Inability to study and model them is a big drawback of modern science. > > > > > > > > > > * * * > > > > > > > > > > One may categorize dreams and internal yogic experiences as imaginations or hallucinations, because there is no independent validation, and call them unworthy of a study. But there are cases that make one wonder. For example, see the following messages from the archives. > > > > > > > > > > Mystical experiences of mind and mantras (message 951) > > > > > http://groups. / group/vedic- wisdom/message/ 951 > > > > > > > > > > In the above message, one person had a specific yogic experience that was described in detail and another person seemed to know about it and supplied one tangible detail relating to the experience, suggesting that he too " observed " the experience of the first person, though it was beyond the external senses of either person! > > > > > > > > > > Re: Guru (message 391) > > > > > http://groups. / group/vedic- wisdom/message/ 391 > > > > > > > > > > In the above message also, one person had a specific yogic experience that was described in detail and another person seemed to know about it and supplied a couple of tangible details relating to the experience, suggesting that he too " observed " the experience of the first person, though it was beyond the external senses of either person! > > > > > > > > > > Internal god and external god (message 2498) > > > > > http://groups. / group/vedic- wisdom/message/ 2498 > > > > > > > > > > In the above message, one person had a specific yogic experience involving a deity and another person perceived with his external senses a vision involving the same deity, though others in the room could not perceive anything with their external senses, suggesting that the second person " observed " the experience of the first person through a specific prism. > > > > > > > > > > * * * > > > > > > > > > > Such examples cannot prove much, but they do suggest that perhaps *some* experiences that cannot be measured or perceived by the external senses are observable by others, though not everyone may be able to observe. Then, one cannot rule out the possibility of *some* experiences that cannot be measured or perceived by the external senses being a part of the " reality " that mind can access. > > > > > > > > > > But, how can modern science study it? > > > > > > > > > > Because the only thing that can be studied and measured is the reality involving the gross body and its senses, one may suggest that experiences of the subtle body may be studied by observing various parts of the gross physical body. For example, one can look at the nervous signals flowing through various parts of the brain and try to correlate them with the experiences of the subtle body. > > > > > > > > > > On the surface, it sounds like a great idea. But, it assumes that subtle body and causal body are redundant. Though there is some correspondence between what happens in the causal, subtle and gross bodies, it is a many-to-many mapping and NOT a one-to-one mapping, in which case the concept of causal and subtle bodies would be redundant, i.e. whatever they model can be moderled using just the gross body! > > > > > > > > > > If you drive through a neighborhood and observe the houses from the road, you can have *some* idea of what is going on. A particular house with a lot of lights and sound and many cars parked outside may be having a party. People in one particular house with no lights are probably out of town. But you can never be sure what is going on in the house, how many people are inside, what exactly they are doing etc, by merely looking at the house from outside. > > > > > > > > > > Similarly, by looking at the nervous signals in various points of the brain, you may be able to see some basic things, but not much. The experiences of the subtle mind are beyond your reach and study, if your tools are limited to the gross physical domain. > > > > > > > > > > * * * > > > > > > > > > > Unfortunately, modern science cannot study that part of the reality which is beyond the scope of external senses, unless scientists become yogis and develop mastery of the internal world. > > > > > > > > > > While rishis of ancient times had mastery of the internal world (which is the microcosm of the entire universe) and could observe any space-time point, even the greatest yogis of today cannot control their state completely. When Kundalini rises, it may go somewhere and one may experience some part of the Infinite Reality. But one cannot control exactly where Kundalini goes and exactly which part of the Infinite Reality one observes. Rishis seemed to have a perfect control. > > > > > > > > > > Best regards, > > > > > Narasimha > > > > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- - > > > > > Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ homam > > > > > Do Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ tarpana > > > > > Spirituality: http://groups. / group/vedic- wisdom > > > > > Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro. home.comcast. net > > > > > Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAst rologer.org > > > > > Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagan nath.org > > > > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- - > > > > > > > > > > ---- rajarshi nandy <rajarshi14@ > wrote: > > > > > > Sorry the previous mail went off incomplete. > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Sundeep, > > > > > > > > > > > > Let me mention some stuff from the diaries of Sri Shamacharun Lahiri (a self realized Yogi of the highest order) - it maybe of some help to you. He did mention in details about the process of creation as he saw it. > > > > > > > > > > > > As per him, at the beginning was the point of ultimate chaos. Then from there came the " vidhyut " of Akash. As this " Vidyut " interacted with the chaos, it produced some universal energies which are more commonly known as the universal deities like Shiva, Vishnu etc etc. Then came the " Vidyut " of vayu ( none of these are the actual physical elements as we see it, but more the essence of the element, hence his use of the word " vidyut " and " taranga " ) whose interaction with the chaos resulted in some more energy states. Thus, in this way came, Agni, Apa and Prithwi, each one resulting from the previous and each one resulting in some energy states, which in the end resulted in 33 crore possible states of energy. > > > > > > > > > > > > There is some lesson in there (at least for me), and I want to get at it.. I feel there may be some correlation between that and the 11-dimensional physics of super string theory too, but I get ahead of myself.. > > > > > > > > > > > > This is a nice idea and I would like to know more about it. > > > > > > > > > > > > As much as I could fathom (I am no physicist, neither do I have the ability to penetrate the mathematics of the M-Theory), as it stands now, it is quite half formed. There being multiple theories of the String variety, adhered to by multiple physicists, the M-Theory (11 dimensional one) is one of the many which 'claim to explain' in parts some aspects of the physical world. Finding a correlation between this and the idea of the five elements, in my humble opinion, is still far fetched. I can understand some correlation between basic Quantum Mechanics, (at least the Copenhegan Interpretation) , non-locality etc, and the ideas of Indian mysticism, but a link between M-theory of panch-mahabhuta? !.. > > > > > > > > > > > > Well, with the kind permission of Narasimha, I would like to know more about how exactly you can link these two, because I myself with my limited understand fail to see any viable correlation at all as of now, specially, since the M-theory is yet in a very nascent stage. > > > > > > > > > > > > The other thing one must think about is the basic nature of theoritical physics. Does physics describe reality? Or does it provide a model of reality? These two are different. Mathematics provides a tool/model to gauge reality. It need not be exactly as reality is. > > > > > > Which is why Richard Feynman once famously quoted that everyone knows that Quatum Mechanics works, but no one know what it really is! > > > > > > > > > > > > The idea of the pach mahabhuta and creation is almost the essence of everything. The day physics gets THAT deep, there would be really nothing more left to do. Physics is still quite far away from that stage. > > > > > > > > > > > > -Regards > > > > > > Rajarshi > > > > > > > > > > > > --- On Tue, 29/9/09, vedicastrostudent <vedicastrostudent@ > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Rajarshi, > > > > > > > > > > > > Not sure if I get the thrust of your point. Yes, sadhana is the only way to know this for sure. And so also for everything else that is below the reach of the senses (e.g. Atma, sookshma sarira etc). But we do read about them (all these things e.g Atma etc), and about the significance of the vedic gods anyway, dont we? They do offer a mild complement to sadhana, dont they? They do help make the mind more receptive toward the benefits of sadhana.. > > > > > > > > > > > > Also wanted to assure you that I really want to know the answer to the question. I am not interested in a he-said/she- said type game (if perhaps that is what you were hinting at?). I am extremely curious as to why there is an order and not a parallelism, for e.g. why are the mahabhutas not simultaneously formed. There is some lesson in there (at least for me), and I want to get at it.. I feel there may be some correlation between that and the 11-dimensional physics of super string theory too, but I get ahead of myself.. > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > > > > > Sundeep > > > > > > > > > > > > , rajarshi nandy <rajarshi14@ ....> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Sundeep, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > With all due respect to your query, I wanted to ask, how does it matter? Can anyone here really know for sure which came after which? We can only speculate and guess and retrofit logic and quote one scripture vs another scripture. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Only practical way to really find out the truth is sadhana. That too if we are destined to find out we will, or else no. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -Regards > > > > > > > Rajarshi > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The upsurge (of consciousness) is Bhairava - Shiva Sutra > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- On Tue, 29/9/09, vedicastrostudent <vedicastrostudent@ ...> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > vedicastrostudent <vedicastrostudent@ ...> > > > > > > > Order of Creation (of mahabhuta/tattwa) ? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Tuesday, 29 September, 2009, 1:12 AM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Narasimhaji and others, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In Taittiriya Upanishad (http://www.sacred- texts.com/ hin/sbe15/ sbe15034. htm), the following is the order of creation (Max Mueller interpretation) : > > > > > > > > > > > > > > " From that Self 2 (Brahman) sprang ether (ÃÆ'Æ'¢kÃÆ'Æ'¢sa, that through which we hear); from ether air (that through which we hear and feel); from air fire (that through which we hear, feel, and see); from fire water (that through which we hear, feel, see, and taste); from water earth (that through which we hear, feel, see, taste, and smell) " > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This sounds logical to me in that I expected Akasa to be first and earth to be last. I have heard differing opinions though, perhaps in Sanjay Rathji's Brhat Nakshtra but since I dont have the book in front of me, I cant confirm. Do you agree with the interpretation above, if not what is your belief, source and justification? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thank you, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sundeep > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Connect more, do more and share more with India Mail. Learn more. http://in.overview. mail.. com/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > From cricket scores to your friends. Try the India Homepage! http://in./trynew > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 1, 2009 Report Share Posted October 1, 2009 Dear Narasimhaji, What is your opinion on this: Clearly Adi Sankara's Vivekacudamani does two broad levels of classification (a) the material level of classification, in which he quantifies materiality in its various levels of manifestation - karana sarira (gunas), linga sarira (tattwas) and sthoola sarira (mahabhutas) (b) the realization level of classification - annamayakosa, pranamayakosa, manomayakosa, vijnanamayakosa, and anandamayakosa. There has to be a reason why he defined the realization levels of classification into 5, right? Consequently, the " rising of kundalini " must also give at some level of classification the same set of realizations, no? It would seem at least superficially to fit on the 5 lower chakras. From that point of view, the 6th chakra would be after the anandamayakosa. Clearly the anandamayakosa would be the final level of egoity, since by being released from it would leave one out of the linga sarira, but yet possibly still in the karana sarira (gunas level). It would seem that any realization levels after getting into the karana sarira would be ahamkara free (and of course tattwa free), yet guna bound. Final releas from gunas of course would lead to pure awakening of Brahman. The point above is - if the mayakosas are not related to the kundalini chakras, what are they? They must be experienced at some level of realization, no? Regards, Sundeep , Narasimha PVR Rao <pvr wrote: > > Namaste, > > I am only addressing the five elements mentioned in upanishads. > > In Sahasrara chakra lies undifferentiated consciousness (Brahman or Aatman), where there are no I-ness or any objectification. Just below it, there are several lokas that people do not mention normally. In Aajnaa chakra lies the primordial state of the universe where there is just space and time, but no five elements. From visuddhi chakra to moolaadhaara chakra lie the elements of ether, air, fire, water and earth as I mentioned. I only focused on the last five stages. > > What happens between Sahasrara and Aajnaa is known only to greatest of seers. It is true that several yogis can be established in Sahasrara, where there is no ego and no objectification. However, very very very few can understand what happens in the chakras just below Sahasrara and above Aajnaa, where there is still I-ness and objectification, but at a very very high level that is beyond the play of elements. > > There is a lot more happening between Sahasrara and Aajnaa than elsewhere, but we are not well-equipped to understand it... > > Best regards, > Narasimha > > Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAstrologer.org/homam > Do Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAstrologer.org/tarpana > Spirituality: > Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro.home.comcast.net > Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAstrologer.org > Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagannath.org > > > ---- yeeahoo_99 <nitish.arya wrote: > > || OM TAT SAT || > > Dear Narasimha, > > You mentioned 5 tattwas, while there are 6 tattwas - that are associated with the 6 cerebro-spinal chakras - a result of all possible combination of 3 gunas of nature. > > > > Gunas Tattwa Chakras > > > > Satvic Tamas - SuperEther - Medulla > > Satvic Satva - Ether (Aakash tattwa) - Throat > > Satvic Rajas - Air (Vayu tattwa) - Heart > > Rajasic Rajas - Fire (Agni tattwa) - Navel > > Rajasic Tamas - Water (Jala tattwa) - Sacral > > Tamasic Tamas - Earth (Prithvi tattwa) - Coccygeal > > > > SuperEther > > 1. All pervading Prana from which Aakash tattwa is created - refer RajaYoga of Vivekananda. > > 2. Background of Aakash tattwa - Refer Gita Commentary of Yogananda > > > > It is the starting point if one begins to discuss about Creation in any sense... > > Your comments. > > Regards, > > Nitish > > > > , Narasimha PVR Rao <pvr@> wrote: > > > > > > Namaste Sundeep and Rajarshi, > > > > > > Yes, Pt Rath's astrology book " Brihat Nakshatra " gives a different order of creation starting with water and ending with the pair of ether and earth. It seems to be his extrapolation. > > > > > > What you quoted from Taittariya Upanishad is the traditional view that I am familiar with. Other scriptures refer to the same order of creation, including " Yoga Vaasishtham " , where Maharshi Vasishtha teaches creation, destruction and liberation to Lord Rama. > > > > > > * * * > > > > > > This Upanishadic understanding is also consistent with chakra based understanding of Tantra. The five chakras downwards from Visuddhi chakra to Moolaadhaara chakra represent ether, air, fire, water and earth. When Kundalini leaves Moolaadhaara, earth element within one is surrendered, i.e. all traces of earth element are effaced in one's self-awareness. When Kundalini leaves Swaadhishthaana, water element within one is surrendered, i.e. all traces of water element are effaced in one's self-awareness. And so on. > > > > > > By earth and water etc, don't just think of physical earth and physical water etc. Earth element shows a solid state of existence. Water element shows a flexible and fluid state of existence. For example, an idea that one " owns " a particular thing (e.g. a car, a house, spouse, some knowledge etc) is of solid state and made of earth element. An idea that one " needs " a particular thing (e.g. a car, a house, spouse, some knowledge etc) is of the nature of water element. Thus, different mental concepts and ideas can be mapped to the five elements. > > > > > > When one thinks of " I " , one perhaps thinks of a body that looks and feels in a particular way physically. Apart from the physical aspect, one may think of " I " as someone who has certain qualities, certain needs, certain belongings etc. All those concepts one has about who one is, form one's self-awareness and Kundalini represents that self-awareness. Kundalini cannot leave Moolaadhaara chakra, if *anything* that is *solid* in nature within one's cumulative idea of who one is is still remaining. Kundalini cannot leave Swaadhishthaana chakra, if *anything* that is *solid* or *fluid* in nature within one's cumulative idea of who one is is still remaining. And so on. > > > > > > Many people who talk about experiences of Kundalini in higher chakras are often talking merely about some amount of vaayus flowing in those chakras (which may still be a nice experience) and have *not* experienced Kundalini actually being there. IF Kundalini really leaves Moolaadhaara, one will not perceive a solid body, one will not have notions of owning anything. Similarly, as Kundalini moves up each chakra, each element is effaced in one's cumulative idea of who one is, at the physical as well as the subtle level of existence! To completely efface even one element (earth) from one's notion of self ( " I " ), even for a short duration of time, is not at all easy. > > > > > > The order in which elements are effaced as one progresses towards samadhi is - earth, water, fire, air and ether. If Kundalini again comes down, effaced elements return to work in the reverse order - ether, air, fire, water and earth. > > > > > > * * * > > > > > > Regarding physics and spiritual realities: > > > > > > > Does physics describe reality? > > > > > > Physics tries to describe/model reality at the gross physical level, as perceived by the external senses. However, one's mind can " perceive " things without the external senses playing a role. > > > > > > As a simple example, one may be asleep and get a dream, in which one's mind may " see " some people and " hear " a conversation between them. In another example, a yogi may be meditating with a mantra with intense focus and " see " some scenes and/or " hear " some things. These things cannot be perceived by the external senses and hence cannot be studied by modern science. > > > > > > It is reasonable to define reality as something that can be perceived by the external senses, because different people can experience the same reality using their senses individually and verify the observation. However, some experiences of the mind that cannot be perceived by senses are sometimes very powerful and have a huge, life-altering and sometimes liberating influence on people. Inability to study and model them is a big drawback of modern science. > > > > > > * * * > > > > > > One may categorize dreams and internal yogic experiences as imaginations or hallucinations, because there is no independent validation, and call them unworthy of a study. But there are cases that make one wonder. For example, see the following messages from the archives. > > > > > > Mystical experiences of mind and mantras (message 951) > > > /message/951 > > > > > > In the above message, one person had a specific yogic experience that was described in detail and another person seemed to know about it and supplied one tangible detail relating to the experience, suggesting that he too " observed " the experience of the first person, though it was beyond the external senses of either person! > > > > > > Re: Guru (message 391) > > > /message/391 > > > > > > In the above message also, one person had a specific yogic experience that was described in detail and another person seemed to know about it and supplied a couple of tangible details relating to the experience, suggesting that he too " observed " the experience of the first person, though it was beyond the external senses of either person! > > > > > > Internal god and external god (message 2498) > > > /message/2498 > > > > > > In the above message, one person had a specific yogic experience involving a deity and another person perceived with his external senses a vision involving the same deity, though others in the room could not perceive anything with their external senses, suggesting that the second person " observed " the experience of the first person through a specific prism. > > > > > > * * * > > > > > > Such examples cannot prove much, but they do suggest that perhaps *some* experiences that cannot be measured or perceived by the external senses are observable by others, though not everyone may be able to observe. Then, one cannot rule out the possibility of *some* experiences that cannot be measured or perceived by the external senses being a part of the " reality " that mind can access. > > > > > > But, how can modern science study it? > > > > > > Because the only thing that can be studied and measured is the reality involving the gross body and its senses, one may suggest that experiences of the subtle body may be studied by observing various parts of the gross physical body. For example, one can look at the nervous signals flowing through various parts of the brain and try to correlate them with the experiences of the subtle body. > > > > > > On the surface, it sounds like a great idea. But, it assumes that subtle body and causal body are redundant. Though there is some correspondence between what happens in the causal, subtle and gross bodies, it is a many-to-many mapping and NOT a one-to-one mapping, in which case the concept of causal and subtle bodies would be redundant, i.e. whatever they model can be moderled using just the gross body! > > > > > > If you drive through a neighborhood and observe the houses from the road, you can have *some* idea of what is going on. A particular house with a lot of lights and sound and many cars parked outside may be having a party. People in one particular house with no lights are probably out of town. But you can never be sure what is going on in the house, how many people are inside, what exactly they are doing etc, by merely looking at the house from outside. > > > > > > Similarly, by looking at the nervous signals in various points of the brain, you may be able to see some basic things, but not much. The experiences of the subtle mind are beyond your reach and study, if your tools are limited to the gross physical domain. > > > > > > * * * > > > > > > Unfortunately, modern science cannot study that part of the reality which is beyond the scope of external senses, unless scientists become yogis and develop mastery of the internal world. > > > > > > While rishis of ancient times had mastery of the internal world (which is the microcosm of the entire universe) and could observe any space-time point, even the greatest yogis of today cannot control their state completely. When Kundalini rises, it may go somewhere and one may experience some part of the Infinite Reality. But one cannot control exactly where Kundalini goes and exactly which part of the Infinite Reality one observes. Rishis seemed to have a perfect control. > > > > > > Best regards, > > > Narasimha > > > > > > Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAstrologer.org/homam > > > Do Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAstrologer.org/tarpana > > > Spirituality: > > > Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro.home.comcast.net > > > Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAstrologer.org > > > Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagannath.org > > > > > > > > > ---- rajarshi nandy <rajarshi14@> wrote: > > > > Sorry the previous mail went off incomplete. > > > > > > > > Dear Sundeep, > > > > > > > > Let me mention some stuff from the diaries of Sri Shamacharun Lahiri (a self realized Yogi of the highest order) - it maybe of some help to you. He did mention in details about the process of creation as he saw it. > > > > > > > > As per him, at the beginning was the point of ultimate chaos. Then from there came the " vidhyut " of Akash. As this " Vidyut " interacted with the chaos, it produced some universal energies which are more commonly known as the universal deities like Shiva, Vishnu etc etc. Then came the " Vidyut " of vayu ( none of these are the actual physical elements as we see it, but more the essence of the element, hence his use of the word " vidyut " and " taranga " ) whose interaction with the chaos resulted in some more energy states. Thus, in this way came, Agni, Apa and Prithwi, each one resulting from the previous and each one resulting in some energy states, which in the end resulted in 33 crore possible states of energy. > > > > > > > > There is some lesson in there (at least for me), and I want to get at it.. I feel there may be some correlation between that and the 11-dimensional physics of super string theory too, but I get ahead of myself.. > > > > > > > > This is a nice idea and I would like to know more about it. > > > > > > > > As much as I could fathom (I am no physicist, neither do I have the ability to penetrate the mathematics of the M-Theory), as it stands now, it is quite half formed. There being multiple theories of the String variety, adhered to by multiple physicists, the M-Theory (11 dimensional one) is one of the many which 'claim to explain' in parts some aspects of the physical world. Finding a correlation between this and the idea of the five elements, in my humble opinion, is still far fetched. I can understand some correlation between basic Quantum Mechanics, (at least the Copenhegan Interpretation), non-locality etc, and the ideas of Indian mysticism, but a link between M-theory of panch-mahabhuta?!.. > > > > > > > > Well, with the kind permission of Narasimha, I would like to know more about how exactly you can link these two, because I myself with my limited understand fail to see any viable correlation at all as of now, specially, since the M-theory is yet in a very nascent stage. > > > > > > > > The other thing one must think about is the basic nature of theoritical physics. Does physics describe reality? Or does it provide a model of reality? These two are different. Mathematics provides a tool/model to gauge reality. It need not be exactly as reality is. > > > > Which is why Richard Feynman once famously quoted that everyone knows that Quatum Mechanics works, but no one know what it really is! > > > > > > > > The idea of the pach mahabhuta and creation is almost the essence of everything. The day physics gets THAT deep, there would be really nothing more left to do. Physics is still quite far away from that stage. > > > > > > > > -Regards > > > > Rajarshi > > > > > > > > --- On Tue, 29/9/09, vedicastrostudent <vedicastrostudent@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Dear Rajarshi, > > > > > > > > Not sure if I get the thrust of your point. Yes, sadhana is the only way to know this for sure. And so also for everything else that is below the reach of the senses (e.g. Atma, sookshma sarira etc). But we do read about them (all these things e.g Atma etc), and about the significance of the vedic gods anyway, dont we? They do offer a mild complement to sadhana, dont they? They do help make the mind more receptive toward the benefits of sadhana.. > > > > > > > > Also wanted to assure you that I really want to know the answer to the question. I am not interested in a he-said/she- said type game (if perhaps that is what you were hinting at?). I am extremely curious as to why there is an order and not a parallelism, for e.g. why are the mahabhutas not simultaneously formed. There is some lesson in there (at least for me), and I want to get at it.. I feel there may be some correlation between that and the 11-dimensional physics of super string theory too, but I get ahead of myself.. > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > Sundeep > > > > > > > > , rajarshi nandy <rajarshi14@ ...> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Dear Sundeep, > > > > > > > > > > With all due respect to your query, I wanted to ask, how does it matter? Can anyone here really know for sure which came after which? We can only speculate and guess and retrofit logic and quote one scripture vs another scripture. > > > > > > > > > > Only practical way to really find out the truth is sadhana. That too if we are destined to find out we will, or else no. > > > > > > > > > > -Regards > > > > > Rajarshi > > > > > > > > > > The upsurge (of consciousness) is Bhairava - Shiva Sutra > > > > > > > > > > --- On Tue, 29/9/09, vedicastrostudent <vedicastrostudent@ ...> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > vedicastrostudent <vedicastrostudent@ ...> > > > > > Order of Creation (of mahabhuta/tattwa) ? > > > > > > > > > > Tuesday, 29 September, 2009, 1:12 AM > > > > > > > > > > Dear Narasimhaji and others, > > > > > > > > > > In Taittiriya Upanishad (http://www.sacred- texts.com/ hin/sbe15/ sbe15034. htm), the following is the order of creation (Max Mueller interpretation) : > > > > > > > > > > " From that Self 2 (Brahman) sprang ether (âkâsa, that through which we hear); from ether air (that through which we hear and feel); from air fire (that through which we hear, feel, and see); from fire water (that through which we hear, feel, see, and taste); from water earth (that through which we hear, feel, see, taste, and smell) " > > > > > > > > > > This sounds logical to me in that I expected Akasa to be first and earth to be last. I have heard differing opinions though, perhaps in Sanjay Rathji's Brhat Nakshtra but since I dont have the book in front of me, I cant confirm. Do you agree with the interpretation above, if not what is your belief, source and justification? > > > > > > > > > > Thank you, > > > > > > > > > > Sundeep > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 1, 2009 Report Share Posted October 1, 2009 Dear Narasimhaji, What is your opinion on this: Clearly Adi Sankara's Vivekacudamani does two broad levels of classification (a) the material level of classification, in which he quantifies materiality in its various levels of manifestation - karana sarira (gunas), linga sarira (tattwas) and sthoola sarira (mahabhutas) (b) the realization level of classification - annamayakosa, pranamayakosa, manomayakosa, vijnanamayakosa, and anandamayakosa. There has to be a reason why he defined the realization levels of classification into 5, right? Consequently, the " rising of kundalini " must also give at some level of classification the same set of realizations, no? It would seem at least superficially to fit on the 5 lower chakras. From that point of view, the 6th chakra would be after the anandamayakosa. Clearly the anandamayakosa would be the final level of egoity, since by being released from it would leave one out of the linga sarira, but yet possibly still in the karana sarira (gunas level). It would seem that any realization levels after getting into the karana sarira would be ahamkara free (and of course tattwa free), yet guna bound. Final releas from gunas of course would lead to pure awakening of Brahman. The point above is - if the mayakosas are not related to the kundalini chakras, what are they? They must be experienced at some level of realization, no? Regards, Sundeep , Narasimha PVR Rao <pvr wrote: > > Namaste, > > I am only addressing the five elements mentioned in upanishads. > > In Sahasrara chakra lies undifferentiated consciousness (Brahman or Aatman), where there are no I-ness or any objectification. Just below it, there are several lokas that people do not mention normally. In Aajnaa chakra lies the primordial state of the universe where there is just space and time, but no five elements. From visuddhi chakra to moolaadhaara chakra lie the elements of ether, air, fire, water and earth as I mentioned. I only focused on the last five stages. > > What happens between Sahasrara and Aajnaa is known only to greatest of seers. It is true that several yogis can be established in Sahasrara, where there is no ego and no objectification. However, very very very few can understand what happens in the chakras just below Sahasrara and above Aajnaa, where there is still I-ness and objectification, but at a very very high level that is beyond the play of elements. > > There is a lot more happening between Sahasrara and Aajnaa than elsewhere, but we are not well-equipped to understand it... > > Best regards, > Narasimha > > Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAstrologer.org/homam > Do Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAstrologer.org/tarpana > Spirituality: > Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro.home.comcast.net > Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAstrologer.org > Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagannath.org > > > ---- yeeahoo_99 <nitish.arya wrote: > > || OM TAT SAT || > > Dear Narasimha, > > You mentioned 5 tattwas, while there are 6 tattwas - that are associated with the 6 cerebro-spinal chakras - a result of all possible combination of 3 gunas of nature. > > > > Gunas Tattwa Chakras > > > > Satvic Tamas - SuperEther - Medulla > > Satvic Satva - Ether (Aakash tattwa) - Throat > > Satvic Rajas - Air (Vayu tattwa) - Heart > > Rajasic Rajas - Fire (Agni tattwa) - Navel > > Rajasic Tamas - Water (Jala tattwa) - Sacral > > Tamasic Tamas - Earth (Prithvi tattwa) - Coccygeal > > > > SuperEther > > 1. All pervading Prana from which Aakash tattwa is created - refer RajaYoga of Vivekananda. > > 2. Background of Aakash tattwa - Refer Gita Commentary of Yogananda > > > > It is the starting point if one begins to discuss about Creation in any sense... > > Your comments. > > Regards, > > Nitish > > > > , Narasimha PVR Rao <pvr@> wrote: > > > > > > Namaste Sundeep and Rajarshi, > > > > > > Yes, Pt Rath's astrology book " Brihat Nakshatra " gives a different order of creation starting with water and ending with the pair of ether and earth. It seems to be his extrapolation. > > > > > > What you quoted from Taittariya Upanishad is the traditional view that I am familiar with. Other scriptures refer to the same order of creation, including " Yoga Vaasishtham " , where Maharshi Vasishtha teaches creation, destruction and liberation to Lord Rama. > > > > > > * * * > > > > > > This Upanishadic understanding is also consistent with chakra based understanding of Tantra. The five chakras downwards from Visuddhi chakra to Moolaadhaara chakra represent ether, air, fire, water and earth. When Kundalini leaves Moolaadhaara, earth element within one is surrendered, i.e. all traces of earth element are effaced in one's self-awareness. When Kundalini leaves Swaadhishthaana, water element within one is surrendered, i.e. all traces of water element are effaced in one's self-awareness. And so on. > > > > > > By earth and water etc, don't just think of physical earth and physical water etc. Earth element shows a solid state of existence. Water element shows a flexible and fluid state of existence. For example, an idea that one " owns " a particular thing (e.g. a car, a house, spouse, some knowledge etc) is of solid state and made of earth element. An idea that one " needs " a particular thing (e.g. a car, a house, spouse, some knowledge etc) is of the nature of water element. Thus, different mental concepts and ideas can be mapped to the five elements. > > > > > > When one thinks of " I " , one perhaps thinks of a body that looks and feels in a particular way physically. Apart from the physical aspect, one may think of " I " as someone who has certain qualities, certain needs, certain belongings etc. All those concepts one has about who one is, form one's self-awareness and Kundalini represents that self-awareness. Kundalini cannot leave Moolaadhaara chakra, if *anything* that is *solid* in nature within one's cumulative idea of who one is is still remaining. Kundalini cannot leave Swaadhishthaana chakra, if *anything* that is *solid* or *fluid* in nature within one's cumulative idea of who one is is still remaining. And so on. > > > > > > Many people who talk about experiences of Kundalini in higher chakras are often talking merely about some amount of vaayus flowing in those chakras (which may still be a nice experience) and have *not* experienced Kundalini actually being there. IF Kundalini really leaves Moolaadhaara, one will not perceive a solid body, one will not have notions of owning anything. Similarly, as Kundalini moves up each chakra, each element is effaced in one's cumulative idea of who one is, at the physical as well as the subtle level of existence! To completely efface even one element (earth) from one's notion of self ( " I " ), even for a short duration of time, is not at all easy. > > > > > > The order in which elements are effaced as one progresses towards samadhi is - earth, water, fire, air and ether. If Kundalini again comes down, effaced elements return to work in the reverse order - ether, air, fire, water and earth. > > > > > > * * * > > > > > > Regarding physics and spiritual realities: > > > > > > > Does physics describe reality? > > > > > > Physics tries to describe/model reality at the gross physical level, as perceived by the external senses. However, one's mind can " perceive " things without the external senses playing a role. > > > > > > As a simple example, one may be asleep and get a dream, in which one's mind may " see " some people and " hear " a conversation between them. In another example, a yogi may be meditating with a mantra with intense focus and " see " some scenes and/or " hear " some things. These things cannot be perceived by the external senses and hence cannot be studied by modern science. > > > > > > It is reasonable to define reality as something that can be perceived by the external senses, because different people can experience the same reality using their senses individually and verify the observation. However, some experiences of the mind that cannot be perceived by senses are sometimes very powerful and have a huge, life-altering and sometimes liberating influence on people. Inability to study and model them is a big drawback of modern science. > > > > > > * * * > > > > > > One may categorize dreams and internal yogic experiences as imaginations or hallucinations, because there is no independent validation, and call them unworthy of a study. But there are cases that make one wonder. For example, see the following messages from the archives. > > > > > > Mystical experiences of mind and mantras (message 951) > > > /message/951 > > > > > > In the above message, one person had a specific yogic experience that was described in detail and another person seemed to know about it and supplied one tangible detail relating to the experience, suggesting that he too " observed " the experience of the first person, though it was beyond the external senses of either person! > > > > > > Re: Guru (message 391) > > > /message/391 > > > > > > In the above message also, one person had a specific yogic experience that was described in detail and another person seemed to know about it and supplied a couple of tangible details relating to the experience, suggesting that he too " observed " the experience of the first person, though it was beyond the external senses of either person! > > > > > > Internal god and external god (message 2498) > > > /message/2498 > > > > > > In the above message, one person had a specific yogic experience involving a deity and another person perceived with his external senses a vision involving the same deity, though others in the room could not perceive anything with their external senses, suggesting that the second person " observed " the experience of the first person through a specific prism. > > > > > > * * * > > > > > > Such examples cannot prove much, but they do suggest that perhaps *some* experiences that cannot be measured or perceived by the external senses are observable by others, though not everyone may be able to observe. Then, one cannot rule out the possibility of *some* experiences that cannot be measured or perceived by the external senses being a part of the " reality " that mind can access. > > > > > > But, how can modern science study it? > > > > > > Because the only thing that can be studied and measured is the reality involving the gross body and its senses, one may suggest that experiences of the subtle body may be studied by observing various parts of the gross physical body. For example, one can look at the nervous signals flowing through various parts of the brain and try to correlate them with the experiences of the subtle body. > > > > > > On the surface, it sounds like a great idea. But, it assumes that subtle body and causal body are redundant. Though there is some correspondence between what happens in the causal, subtle and gross bodies, it is a many-to-many mapping and NOT a one-to-one mapping, in which case the concept of causal and subtle bodies would be redundant, i.e. whatever they model can be moderled using just the gross body! > > > > > > If you drive through a neighborhood and observe the houses from the road, you can have *some* idea of what is going on. A particular house with a lot of lights and sound and many cars parked outside may be having a party. People in one particular house with no lights are probably out of town. But you can never be sure what is going on in the house, how many people are inside, what exactly they are doing etc, by merely looking at the house from outside. > > > > > > Similarly, by looking at the nervous signals in various points of the brain, you may be able to see some basic things, but not much. The experiences of the subtle mind are beyond your reach and study, if your tools are limited to the gross physical domain. > > > > > > * * * > > > > > > Unfortunately, modern science cannot study that part of the reality which is beyond the scope of external senses, unless scientists become yogis and develop mastery of the internal world. > > > > > > While rishis of ancient times had mastery of the internal world (which is the microcosm of the entire universe) and could observe any space-time point, even the greatest yogis of today cannot control their state completely. When Kundalini rises, it may go somewhere and one may experience some part of the Infinite Reality. But one cannot control exactly where Kundalini goes and exactly which part of the Infinite Reality one observes. Rishis seemed to have a perfect control. > > > > > > Best regards, > > > Narasimha > > > > > > Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAstrologer.org/homam > > > Do Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAstrologer.org/tarpana > > > Spirituality: > > > Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro.home.comcast.net > > > Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAstrologer.org > > > Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagannath.org > > > > > > > > > ---- rajarshi nandy <rajarshi14@> wrote: > > > > Sorry the previous mail went off incomplete. > > > > > > > > Dear Sundeep, > > > > > > > > Let me mention some stuff from the diaries of Sri Shamacharun Lahiri (a self realized Yogi of the highest order) - it maybe of some help to you. He did mention in details about the process of creation as he saw it. > > > > > > > > As per him, at the beginning was the point of ultimate chaos. Then from there came the " vidhyut " of Akash. As this " Vidyut " interacted with the chaos, it produced some universal energies which are more commonly known as the universal deities like Shiva, Vishnu etc etc. Then came the " Vidyut " of vayu ( none of these are the actual physical elements as we see it, but more the essence of the element, hence his use of the word " vidyut " and " taranga " ) whose interaction with the chaos resulted in some more energy states. Thus, in this way came, Agni, Apa and Prithwi, each one resulting from the previous and each one resulting in some energy states, which in the end resulted in 33 crore possible states of energy. > > > > > > > > There is some lesson in there (at least for me), and I want to get at it.. I feel there may be some correlation between that and the 11-dimensional physics of super string theory too, but I get ahead of myself.. > > > > > > > > This is a nice idea and I would like to know more about it. > > > > > > > > As much as I could fathom (I am no physicist, neither do I have the ability to penetrate the mathematics of the M-Theory), as it stands now, it is quite half formed. There being multiple theories of the String variety, adhered to by multiple physicists, the M-Theory (11 dimensional one) is one of the many which 'claim to explain' in parts some aspects of the physical world. Finding a correlation between this and the idea of the five elements, in my humble opinion, is still far fetched. I can understand some correlation between basic Quantum Mechanics, (at least the Copenhegan Interpretation), non-locality etc, and the ideas of Indian mysticism, but a link between M-theory of panch-mahabhuta?!.. > > > > > > > > Well, with the kind permission of Narasimha, I would like to know more about how exactly you can link these two, because I myself with my limited understand fail to see any viable correlation at all as of now, specially, since the M-theory is yet in a very nascent stage. > > > > > > > > The other thing one must think about is the basic nature of theoritical physics. Does physics describe reality? Or does it provide a model of reality? These two are different. Mathematics provides a tool/model to gauge reality. It need not be exactly as reality is. > > > > Which is why Richard Feynman once famously quoted that everyone knows that Quatum Mechanics works, but no one know what it really is! > > > > > > > > The idea of the pach mahabhuta and creation is almost the essence of everything. The day physics gets THAT deep, there would be really nothing more left to do. Physics is still quite far away from that stage. > > > > > > > > -Regards > > > > Rajarshi > > > > > > > > --- On Tue, 29/9/09, vedicastrostudent <vedicastrostudent@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Dear Rajarshi, > > > > > > > > Not sure if I get the thrust of your point. Yes, sadhana is the only way to know this for sure. And so also for everything else that is below the reach of the senses (e.g. Atma, sookshma sarira etc). But we do read about them (all these things e.g Atma etc), and about the significance of the vedic gods anyway, dont we? They do offer a mild complement to sadhana, dont they? They do help make the mind more receptive toward the benefits of sadhana.. > > > > > > > > Also wanted to assure you that I really want to know the answer to the question. I am not interested in a he-said/she- said type game (if perhaps that is what you were hinting at?). I am extremely curious as to why there is an order and not a parallelism, for e.g. why are the mahabhutas not simultaneously formed. There is some lesson in there (at least for me), and I want to get at it.. I feel there may be some correlation between that and the 11-dimensional physics of super string theory too, but I get ahead of myself.. > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > Sundeep > > > > > > > > , rajarshi nandy <rajarshi14@ ...> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Dear Sundeep, > > > > > > > > > > With all due respect to your query, I wanted to ask, how does it matter? Can anyone here really know for sure which came after which? We can only speculate and guess and retrofit logic and quote one scripture vs another scripture. > > > > > > > > > > Only practical way to really find out the truth is sadhana. That too if we are destined to find out we will, or else no. > > > > > > > > > > -Regards > > > > > Rajarshi > > > > > > > > > > The upsurge (of consciousness) is Bhairava - Shiva Sutra > > > > > > > > > > --- On Tue, 29/9/09, vedicastrostudent <vedicastrostudent@ ...> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > vedicastrostudent <vedicastrostudent@ ...> > > > > > Order of Creation (of mahabhuta/tattwa) ? > > > > > > > > > > Tuesday, 29 September, 2009, 1:12 AM > > > > > > > > > > Dear Narasimhaji and others, > > > > > > > > > > In Taittiriya Upanishad (http://www.sacred- texts.com/ hin/sbe15/ sbe15034. htm), the following is the order of creation (Max Mueller interpretation) : > > > > > > > > > > " From that Self 2 (Brahman) sprang ether (âkâsa, that through which we hear); from ether air (that through which we hear and feel); from air fire (that through which we hear, feel, and see); from fire water (that through which we hear, feel, see, and taste); from water earth (that through which we hear, feel, see, taste, and smell) " > > > > > > > > > > This sounds logical to me in that I expected Akasa to be first and earth to be last. I have heard differing opinions though, perhaps in Sanjay Rathji's Brhat Nakshtra but since I dont have the book in front of me, I cant confirm. Do you agree with the interpretation above, if not what is your belief, source and justification? > > > > > > > > > > Thank you, > > > > > > > > > > Sundeep > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 1, 2009 Report Share Posted October 1, 2009 Nitish, You clearly contradict Adi Sankara's Vivekacudamani (VC from here on). Please tell us why we should listen to you, not him. Specifically, you insist chitta is a tattwa. Whereas when VC uses the word Chitta as a verb, i.e. consciousness, then this property is only possessed by Brahman because only it is Sat-chitta-ananda. When VC uses this word as a noun, it is used as a modification of antahakarana (whose other three modifications are manas, ahamkara and buddhi). So to put this is context, VC clearly implies that at the material level of tattwas, we see the Linga Sarira. One of the constructs of Linga sarira is antahakrana. One of its " modifications " is chitta. I take this to mean (since I take that only Brahman can have true chitta (verb))it is that property of the antahakarana that, when enlivened by Brahman, gives awareness/consciousness to the Linga sarira. How exactly am I wrong. Only facts and explanations please, no proof by ridicule/intimidation. Regards, Sundeep > Patanjalis' Chitta Vrittis' correspond to the 5 tattwas and are all happening on the background of Chitta, the all-pervading 6th tattwa. The normal-human- experience happens by the 5 modifications/ movement of Chitta (finest creation). > > How would the Soul become aware of the more material Aakash Tattwa (and thus a single coherent self pervading the material physical body), if it were not standing behind the Chitta (SuperEther) ? > > Thus, all our experiences of matter are through non-material Chitta, and it doesn't imply that 6th tattwa doesn't exist. If you could calm all those modifications of Chitta, you would have your self-realized. > > > In Aajnaa chakra lies the primordial state of the universe where > > there is just space and time, but no five elements. > > Nothing comes out from nothing. How can the lower tattwas evolve from higher tattwas, if even their subtle representations are purged from existence altogether ? > > Greatest of the Seers have already put down the scriptures in writing, so that people like us can benefit. > > Regards, > Nitish Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 1, 2009 Report Share Posted October 1, 2009 Dear Nitish, Kindly check below. -Regards Rajarshi The upsurge (of consciousness) is Bhairava - Shiva Sutra--- On Thu, 1/10/09, yeeahoo_99 <nitish.arya wrote: yeeahoo_99 <nitish.arya Re: Order of Creation, Physics & Reality Date: Thursday, 1 October, 2009, 9:23 PM || OM TAT SAT ||Namaskar Rajarshi,Like all of us, you have picked up some pointers about the nature of things which is all the knowledge available to you, but what you want to know is the complete picture. As a rule of thumb, if one begins his study from a biased point of view, he will never have the complete picture, even if he is given all the relevant pointers. :) I could not have agreed more. Why do you think I would paint the complete picture, somebody has already painted it time and again in scriptures, but you seem to fail to read it ? That is what I am saying, and your picture is not matching the one that has been already painted! Therefore, the queries.> If you take Samkhya, there are 24 elements, of which 5 are basic. > And the rest are subtle. So when normal creation is spoken of, it > is spoken off in terms of 5 elements and not 6. Despite all the knowledge that you have - it is evident that you have not studied Sankhya thoroughly.6 x 4 = 24It actually refers to 6 tattwas - Where are the 4 antahkaranas' coming from NaraSimha - and why are they called AntahKaranas' at all ? Are your doubts over that Sankhya mentions about the 6th tattwa ? No, this increases some more questions. Firstly, some of the interpretations of the Samkhya philosophy mention 3 antakaranas, some mention 4 and some mention 5 (taking Purusha also as one). Why should I stick to 4? Secondly, if it is 4, why 4 x 6? What is the logic behoind it? No where in any Samkhya text does it mention that these antakaranas manifest as 6 tattwas. So, unless you can provide actual, factual quotes, I shall take it that you are merely playing number games with no real basis. Given the amount of discord and contradictions amongst the scriptural interpretations and authorities, Badrayana had to write "Brahma Sutras".If you are discerning enough and re-read all the scriptures you have ever read, you will most certainly figure out that every scripture has mentioned about the 6th tattwa everywhere. All we need is to rise above the dogma propounded by a lot of people around us who have selfish motives, and keep working in the correct direction. I am sorry, but I don't value personal opinions too much in a scholarly debate. I need facts. Or else, I shall take it as just some fanciful opinions with litte or no value. Vivekananda, mentioned it, but had not coined the term "superether" for this 6th tattwa, while Yogananda was not a Jnana Yogi - but I take his word as scriptural authority given his level of self-realization. Too vague. In the analysis of Samkhya by Lahiri Mahasaya he never mentions Chitta as a sixth tattwa ever. I take his word as higher than Yoganandas, if it comes down to X's word vs Y's word. Let me clarify, if you feel happy in believing in a 6th tattwa, feel free to do so, but if you expect others like me to believe in a 6th tattwa, you need more facts on your side. > When you say that Gunas by "inherent duality" in nature give rise > to 6 tattwas, I guess you are using a simple multiplication of 3 x > 2 and arriving at six.Also, what is so wrong with a simple multiplication where multiplication is required ? Do you know what is "Law of Duality" ? What is so wrong with addding, substraction, divsion, sqaure root, exponential, log 2 with base 3, etc etc? As I said, you need more facts to support your statement, or else they remain merely as personal opinions. BTW, don't really want to go into kriya yoga of lahiri mahashaya, because it is better learnt from a teacher than discussed. All aspects of real spirituality are better learnt from a teacher but yet discussion happen. I see no harm in it. > "....Ajna and mooladhara chakras are closely related, and the awakening of one helps to awaken the other.What is any other possible meaning of this line than that the two chakras awaken each other and are related ? Sure, and that will depend on how you define the word awakening which I had asked you to right at the beginning. Here awakening could well be a euphemism for merely symptomatic partial activation and nothing more. Ganesha is worshipped first because mooladhara is connected with Ajna chakra and the breathing process involves these two chakras(HaM-SaH). The breath connection makes it the most suitable place to connect the highest and lowest expressions of God-consciousness, from brahma to a worm - every living creature breathes! I see that you have merely given what you consider your understanding, in which case I have no further points to make except rejecting your understanding. After all everyone is free to believe in what he/she thinks is correct. No issues with that. I firmly disagree to the explanation give by you regarding Ganesha. The scriptures state otherwise. , rajarshi nandy <rajarshi14@ ...> wrote:>> Dear Nitish,>  > Please find some more comments from my side mentioned below.> > -Regards>  Rajarshi> > The upsurge (of consciousness) is Bhairava - Shiva Sutra> > --- On Thu, 1/10/09, yeeahoo_99 <nitish.arya@ ...> wrote:> > > yeeahoo_99 <nitish.arya@ ...>> Re: Order of Creation, Physics & Reality> > Thursday, 1 October, 2009, 5:52 PM> > >  > > > > || OM TAT SAT ||> Namaskar Rajarshi,> > I have not read the diaries of Lahiri Mahashaya, so lets drop all that "technicalities" out of the discussion. The specific diagram is in "God talks with Arjuna, Self-Realization Fellowship, Jaico Publishing House, 2002" - Part -2 of that book.>  > Well, I have seen the diagram you are refering to. >  > Technicalities, I feel, should not be dropped, because in that case the conversation will become too hazy. Further, one may use the same term to mean something else and keep needlessly arguing over a non issue. Precise, clear definitions are the first step in a meaningful dialogue.> > > Here is the relevant Text:> > "....Ajna and mooladhara chakras are closely related, and the awakening of one helps to awaken the other. Ideally, ajna should be awakened to some extent before mooladhara, in order to allow an unaffected perception of the energies manifested by mooladhara and the lower chakras. However, the awakening of mooladhara will help to further awaken ajna. In fact, the best way to bring about awakening of ajna is through the practices of moola bandha and ashwini mudra which are specific for mooladhara.. .."> > Well, thanks for the quote. However, this does not say that "awakening" of one will automatically "awaken" the other. It says, in an ideal case one should "awaken" Agya chakra to some extent before trying to awaken Mooladhara chakra. >  > In a lot of people chakras remain "awakened in various degrees"without any conscinous effort. Rarely would an individual appear who have absolutely zero awakening of all chakras. In most cases, "partially awakenend" chakras do exist, but I am not sure if that is of any significant help in practical spirituality.>  > Plus, this is one of the possible paths of progess in Yoga, not the only one possible. Hence, we should not jump to conclusions which are not explicitly stated. >  > A fact, required to understand why Ganesh, deity of Mooladhara, is worshipped first.>  > > Ganesha is worshipped first because it presides over the Mooladhara, not because mooladhara has a connection with Agya. >  > Regarding the 6th tattwa there is nothing new to it, it already exists, Yogananda writes in his commentary the following:> > "...Beyond the subtlest physical vibration (akasha, ether), Paramahansa Yogananda explained, is the superether," a finer manifestation and therefore not classified as one of the physical vibratory elements (tattvas), of which there are only five-earth, water, fire, air, ether. Some yoga treatises define this tattwa as mind, or 'non-matter' , as opposed to matter or gross vibration... ."> > I am sorry, but the above quote is a little vague. It no where mentions that Chitta is a 6th tattwa. What it does it says about the 5 gross elements and "a finer manifestation" . Maybe the intented audience for this passage was one who is not intellectually aware of the basic idea of five creative elements. Otherwise, the "super-ether" needs more clarity. Is it prakiriti? It is Chitta? Is it really sixth or does the six have more subsets? Is he calling it a vague six because we cannot be aware of the higher tattwas beyond the five, therefore clubbing everything together into one?>  > As you mentioned Samkhya, it uses a calssification of the universe in 24 tattwas with 5 which cause physical manifestations to occur. It is still not 6 by any measure.>  > Again in Kasmiri Shaivism, they define 36 tattwas! That is why the need to be technically precise so that we may not misunderstand each other.>  > > The tattwas are 5 in number as per multiple Hindu scriptures, both > Agamas/Nigamas as well as Upanishads.> > Which scriptures ? Quotes ? >  > Check the quotation given by Sundeep right at the begining of this set of mails. Are you questioning the veracity of scriptures or the fact that they mention creation is caused by five gross elements?> > > It is through Sankhya, that you can understand why Chitta is related to it. >  > As I said before, no one is denying the existence of Chitta. One is however questioning whether Chitta is a '6th element' . If you take Samkhya, there are 24 elements, of which 5 are basic. And the rest are subtle. So when normal creation is spoken of, it is spoken off in terms of 5 elements and not 6. When the essence of spirituality is spoken off right upto the state of God, then we go into 24 or 36 (depending on your classification) . Further, in the 36 element lists, the "suddha-tattwas" are defined as unknowable from this plane of existence. >  >  > As Narasimha knows Jyotish shastra also, he could probably figure out the rashi to which the 6th tattwa is attributed since I have already given the table out, so it is as real as it rises daily.> > Umm, with due respect, no it is not yet easy. Lot of hazy areas yet. Kindly check above.>  > > Regards,> Nitish> > , rajarshi nandy <rajarshi14@ ...> wrote:> >> > Dear Nitish,> >  > > Allow me interject in your conversation with Narasimha.> >  > > You mentioned:> >  > > Thus, the highest Ajna is connected to the lowest Mooladhara and the awakening of one of them affects the other, a fact rather well-documented in Yoga books. A fact, required to understand why Ganesh, deity of Mooladhara, is worshipped first.> >  > > Can you please elaborate on what you mean by the terms "awakening" and "affects"? Let us be technically precise and not use terms loosely to avoid confusion. What is the "awakening" of a chakra? What does it mean by "affecting"?> >  > > The diagrams, not just by Lahiri Mahasaya but even other books, explain the connection of the nadis etc, but no where in his description of spiritual progess (from the 26 dairies of Lahiri Mahasaya) does he say that awakening of the agya chakra will automatically awaken the mooladhara. If you can provide an exact quote with page number and name of the book, I will try and check. > >  > > He explains in details about the "granthi bhedans" before one goes into actually awakening any chakra for that matter. These granthis have a specific format in which they have to be pierced as per Lahiri Mahasaya and it is here that a connection is drawn between Agya and Mooladhara with Manipura in the centre. Not in the actual act of "awakening a chakra", if I use the same definitions as used in the book by Lahiri Mahasaya himself.> >  > >  > > Gunas, by inherent duality in nature, give rise to the 6 tattwas, that is as simple. Now, the spiritual law of duality is very well described by the two birds analogy, as well as the 3 gunas are very well mentioned in the upanishads. Isn't it ?> >  > >  > > Can you quote a scripture which says there are 6 tattwas? Tattwa has a very specific technical meaning. When you say that Gunas by "inherent duality" in nature give rise to 6 tattwas, I guess you are using a simple multiplication of 3 x 2 and arriving at six. My question, then why not a simple 3 raised to the power 2 resulting in 9 tattwas?> >  > > No, this is not really a case of basic maths I presume. The scriptures are clear that there are exactly 5 tattwas, not more. Chitta is not a tattwa. > >  > > Thus, all our experiences of matter are through non-material Chitta, and it doesn't imply that 6th tattwa doesn't exist. > >  > > No one denies the existence of Chitta, but the scriptures do not bracket it as a "tattwa". > >  > > The tattwas are 5 in number as per multiple Hindu scriptures, both Agamas/Nigamas as well as Upanishads.> >  > > -Regards> >  Rajarshi> > > > > >  > >  > >  > > > > > > > > > > > > The upsurge (of consciousness) is Bhairava - Shiva Sutra> > > > --- On Thu, 1/10/09, yeeahoo_99 <nitish.arya@ ...> wrote:> > > > > > yeeahoo_99 <nitish.arya@ ...>> > Re: Order of Creation, Physics & Reality> > > > Thursday, 1 October, 2009, 10:33 AM> > > > > >  > > > > > > > > || OM TAT SAT ||> > Dear Narasimha,> > 3 Gunas, by inherent duality in nature, give rise to the 6 tattwas, that is as simple. Now, the spiritual law of duality is very well described by the two birds analogy, as well as the 3 gunas are very well mentioned in the upanishads. Isn't it ?> > > > > From visuddhi chakra to moolaadhaara chakra lie the elements of > > > ether, air, fire, water and earth as I mentioned. I only focused on > the last five stages.> > > > What do you mean by last 5 stages ? Where is the beginning and the end of the sushumna passing through 6 cerebro-spinal chakras ?> > > > In the physical body, it appears as a linear movement from the lowest mooladhara to the highest ajna chakra - but the nadis' emanating from these "Shad-chakras" - meet in a circular manner inside the Sahasrara Chakra (See the diagram of Astral Nadis' prepared by YogiRaj ShyamaCharan Lahiri, published in Gita Commentary by Yogananda).> > > > Thus, the highest Ajna is connected to the lowest Mooladhara and the awakening of one of them affects the other, a fact rather well-documented in Yoga books. A fact, required to understand why Ganesh, deity of Mooladhara, is worshipped first.> > > > > In Sahasrara chakra lies undifferentiated consciousness (Brahman or >Aatman), where there are no I-ness or any objectification. Just >below it, there are several lokas that people do not mention > > > normally.> > > > With every invocation of Gayatri Mantra, we mention 3 or 7 of these lokas. Don't we do it "Normally" ? > > > > In any case, we are not discussing about the actual experiences or undifferentiated consciousness, the 6 tattwas that cause creation are still very much differentiated in Nature.> > > > Patanjalis' Chitta Vrittis' correspond to the 5 tattwas and are all happening on the background of Chitta, the all-pervading 6th tattwa. The normal-human- experience happens by the 5 modifications/ movement of Chitta (finest creation).> > > > How would the Soul become aware of the more material Aakash Tattwa (and thus a single coherent self pervading the material physical body), if it were not standing behind the Chitta (SuperEther) ?> > > > Thus, all our experiences of matter are through non-material Chitta, and it doesn't imply that 6th tattwa doesn't exist. If you could calm all those modifications of Chitta, you would have your self-realized.> > > > > In Aajnaa chakra lies the primordial state of the universe where > > > there is just space and time, but no five elements. > > > > Nothing comes out from nothing. How can the lower tattwas evolve from higher tattwas, if even their subtle representations are purged from existence altogether ?> > > > Greatest of the Seers have already put down the scriptures in writing, so that people like us can benefit.> > > > Regards,> > Nitish> > > > , Narasimha PVR Rao <pvr@> wrote:> > >> > > Namaste,> > > > > > I am only addressing the five elements mentioned in upanishads.> > > > > > In Sahasrara chakra lies undifferentiated consciousness (Brahman or Aatman), where there are no I-ness or any objectification. Just below it, there are several lokas that people do not mention normally. In Aajnaa chakra lies the primordial state of the universe where there is just space and time, but no five elements. From visuddhi chakra to moolaadhaara chakra lie the elements of ether, air, fire, water and earth as I mentioned. I only focused on the last five stages.> > > > > > What happens between Sahasrara and Aajnaa is known only to greatest of seers. It is true that several yogis can be established in Sahasrara, where there is no ego and no objectification. However, very very very few can understand what happens in the chakras just below Sahasrara and above Aajnaa, where there is still I-ness and objectification, but at a very very high level that is beyond the play of elements.> > > > > > There is a lot more happening between Sahasrara and Aajnaa than elsewhere, but we are not well-equipped to understand it...> > > > > > Best regards,> > > Narasimha> > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -> > > Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ homam> > > Do Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ tarpana> > > Spirituality: http://groups. / group/vedic- wisdom> > > Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro. home.comcast. net> > > Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAst rologer.org> > > Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagan nath.org> > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -> > > > > > ---- yeeahoo_99 <nitish.arya@ ...> wrote: > > > > || OM TAT SAT ||> > > > Dear Narasimha, > > > > You mentioned 5 tattwas, while there are 6 tattwas - that are associated with the 6 cerebro-spinal chakras - a result of all possible combination of 3 gunas of nature.> > > > > > > > Gunas Tattwa Chakras> > > > > > > > Satvic Tamas - SuperEther - Medulla > > > > Satvic Satva - Ether (Aakash tattwa) - Throat> > > > Satvic Rajas - Air (Vayu tattwa) - Heart> > > > Rajasic Rajas - Fire (Agni tattwa) - Navel> > > > Rajasic Tamas - Water (Jala tattwa) - Sacral> > > > Tamasic Tamas - Earth (Prithvi tattwa) - Coccygeal> > > > > > > > SuperEther> > > > 1. All pervading Prana from which Aakash tattwa is created - refer RajaYoga of Vivekananda.> > > > 2. Background of Aakash tattwa - Refer Gita Commentary of Yogananda> > > > > > > > It is the starting point if one begins to discuss about Creation in any sense...> > > > Your comments.> > > > Regards,> > > > Nitish> > > > > > > > , Narasimha PVR Rao <pvr@> wrote:> > > > >> > > > > Namaste Sundeep and Rajarshi,> > > > > > > > > > Yes, Pt Rath's astrology book "Brihat Nakshatra" gives a different order of creation starting with water and ending with the pair of ether and earth. It seems to be his extrapolation.> > > > > > > > > > What you quoted from Taittariya Upanishad is the traditional view that I am familiar with. Other scriptures refer to the same order of creation, including "Yoga Vaasishtham" , where Maharshi Vasishtha teaches creation, destruction and liberation to Lord Rama.> > > > > > > > > > * * *> > > > > > > > > > This Upanishadic understanding is also consistent with chakra based understanding of Tantra. The five chakras downwards from Visuddhi chakra to Moolaadhaara chakra represent ether, air, fire, water and earth. When Kundalini leaves Moolaadhaara, earth element within one is surrendered, i.e. all traces of earth element are effaced in one's self-awareness. When Kundalini leaves Swaadhishthaana, water element within one is surrendered, i.e. all traces of water element are effaced in one's self-awareness. And so on.> > > > > > > > > > By earth and water etc, don't just think of physical earth and physical water etc. Earth element shows a solid state of existence. Water element shows a flexible and fluid state of existence. For example, an idea that one "owns" a particular thing (e.g. a car, a house, spouse, some knowledge etc) is of solid state and made of earth element. An idea that one "needs" a particular thing (e.g. a car, a house, spouse, some knowledge etc) is of the nature of water element. Thus, different mental concepts and ideas can be mapped to the five elements.> > > > > > > > > > When one thinks of "I", one perhaps thinks of a body that looks and feels in a particular way physically. Apart from the physical aspect, one may think of "I" as someone who has certain qualities, certain needs, certain belongings etc. All those concepts one has about who one is, form one's self-awareness and Kundalini represents that self-awareness. Kundalini cannot leave Moolaadhaara chakra, if *anything* that is *solid* in nature within one's cumulative idea of who one is is still remaining. Kundalini cannot leave Swaadhishthaana chakra, if *anything* that is *solid* or *fluid* in nature within one's cumulative idea of who one is is still remaining. And so on.> > > > > > > > > > Many people who talk about experiences of Kundalini in higher chakras are often talking merely about some amount of vaayus flowing in those chakras (which may still be a nice experience) and have *not* experienced Kundalini actually being there. IF Kundalini really leaves Moolaadhaara, one will not perceive a solid body, one will not have notions of owning anything. Similarly, as Kundalini moves up each chakra, each element is effaced in one's cumulative idea of who one is, at the physical as well as the subtle level of existence! To completely efface even one element (earth) from one's notion of self ("I"), even for a short duration of time, is not at all easy.> > > > > > > > > > The order in which elements are effaced as one progresses towards samadhi is - earth, water, fire, air and ether. If Kundalini again comes down, effaced elements return to work in the reverse order - ether, air, fire, water and earth.> > > > > > > > > > * * *> > > > > > > > > > Regarding physics and spiritual realities:> > > > > > > > > > > Does physics describe reality?> > > > > > > > > > Physics tries to describe/model reality at the gross physical level, as perceived by the external senses. However, one's mind can "perceive" things without the external senses playing a role.> > > > > > > > > > As a simple example, one may be asleep and get a dream, in which one's mind may "see" some people and "hear" a conversation between them. In another example, a yogi may be meditating with a mantra with intense focus and "see" some scenes and/or "hear" some things. These things cannot be perceived by the external senses and hence cannot be studied by modern science.> > > > > > > > > > It is reasonable to define reality as something that can be perceived by the external senses, because different people can experience the same reality using their senses individually and verify the observation. However, some experiences of the mind that cannot be perceived by senses are sometimes very powerful and have a huge, life-altering and sometimes liberating influence on people. Inability to study and model them is a big drawback of modern science.> > > > > > > > > > * * *> > > > > > > > > > One may categorize dreams and internal yogic experiences as imaginations or hallucinations, because there is no independent validation, and call them unworthy of a study. But there are cases that make one wonder. For example, see the following messages from the archives.> > > > > > > > > > Mystical experiences of mind and mantras (message 951)> > > > > http://groups. / group/vedic- wisdom/message/ 951> > > > > > > > > > In the above message, one person had a specific yogic experience that was described in detail and another person seemed to know about it and supplied one tangible detail relating to the experience, suggesting that he too "observed" the experience of the first person, though it was beyond the external senses of either person!> > > > > > > > > > Re: Guru (message 391)> > > > > http://groups. / group/vedic- wisdom/message/ 391> > > > > > > > > > In the above message also, one person had a specific yogic experience that was described in detail and another person seemed to know about it and supplied a couple of tangible details relating to the experience, suggesting that he too "observed" the experience of the first person, though it was beyond the external senses of either person!> > > > > > > > > > Internal god and external god (message 2498)> > > > > http://groups. / group/vedic- wisdom/message/ 2498> > > > > > > > > > In the above message, one person had a specific yogic experience involving a deity and another person perceived with his external senses a vision involving the same deity, though others in the room could not perceive anything with their external senses, suggesting that the second person "observed" the experience of the first person through a specific prism.> > > > > > > > > > * * *> > > > > > > > > > Such examples cannot prove much, but they do suggest that perhaps *some* experiences that cannot be measured or perceived by the external senses are observable by others, though not everyone may be able to observe. Then, one cannot rule out the possibility of *some* experiences that cannot be measured or perceived by the external senses being a part of the "reality" that mind can access.> > > > > > > > > > But, how can modern science study it?> > > > > > > > > > Because the only thing that can be studied and measured is the reality involving the gross body and its senses, one may suggest that experiences of the subtle body may be studied by observing various parts of the gross physical body. For example, one can look at the nervous signals flowing through various parts of the brain and try to correlate them with the experiences of the subtle body.> > > > > > > > > > On the surface, it sounds like a great idea. But, it assumes that subtle body and causal body are redundant. Though there is some correspondence between what happens in the causal, subtle and gross bodies, it is a many-to-many mapping and NOT a one-to-one mapping, in which case the concept of causal and subtle bodies would be redundant, i.e. whatever they model can be moderled using just the gross body!> > > > > > > > > > If you drive through a neighborhood and observe the houses from the road, you can have *some* idea of what is going on. A particular house with a lot of lights and sound and many cars parked outside may be having a party. People in one particular house with no lights are probably out of town. But you can never be sure what is going on in the house, how many people are inside, what exactly they are doing etc, by merely looking at the house from outside.> > > > > > > > > > Similarly, by looking at the nervous signals in various points of the brain, you may be able to see some basic things, but not much. The experiences of the subtle mind are beyond your reach and study, if your tools are limited to the gross physical domain.> > > > > > > > > > * * *> > > > > > > > > > Unfortunately, modern science cannot study that part of the reality which is beyond the scope of external senses, unless scientists become yogis and develop mastery of the internal world.> > > > > > > > > > While rishis of ancient times had mastery of the internal world (which is the microcosm of the entire universe) and could observe any space-time point, even the greatest yogis of today cannot control their state completely. When Kundalini rises, it may go somewhere and one may experience some part of the Infinite Reality. But one cannot control exactly where Kundalini goes and exactly which part of the Infinite Reality one observes. Rishis seemed to have a perfect control.> > > > > > > > > > Best regards,> > > > > Narasimha> > > > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -> > > > > Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ homam> > > > > Do Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ tarpana> > > > > Spirituality: http://groups. / group/vedic- wisdom> > > > > Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro. home.comcast. net> > > > > Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAst rologer.org> > > > > Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagan nath.org> > > > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -> > > > > > > > > > ---- rajarshi nandy <rajarshi14@ > wrote: > > > > > > Sorry the previous mail went off incomplete. > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Sundeep,> > > > > > > > > > > > Let me mention some stuff from the diaries of Sri Shamacharun Lahiri (a self realized Yogi of the highest order) - it maybe of some help to you. He did mention in details about the process of creation as he saw it.> > > > > > > > > > > > As per him, at the beginning was the point of ultimate chaos. Then from there came the "vidhyut" of Akash. As this "Vidyut" interacted with the chaos, it produced some universal energies which are more commonly known as the universal deities like Shiva, Vishnu etc etc. Then came the "Vidyut" of vayu ( none of these are the actual physical elements as we see it, but more the essence of the element, hence his use of the word "vidyut" and " taranga") whose interaction with the chaos resulted in some more energy states. Thus, in this way came, Agni, Apa and Prithwi, each one resulting from the previous and each one resulting in some energy states, which in the end resulted in 33 crore possible states of energy.> > > > > > > > > > > > There is some lesson in there (at least for me), and I want to get at it.. I feel there may be some correlation between that and the 11-dimensional physics of super string theory too, but I get ahead of myself..> > > > > > > > > > > > This is a nice idea and I would like to know more about it.> > > > > > > > > > > > As much as I could fathom (I am no physicist, neither do I have the ability to penetrate the mathematics of the M-Theory), as it stands now, it is quite half formed. There being multiple theories of the String variety, adhered to by multiple physicists, the M-Theory (11 dimensional one) is one of the many which 'claim to explain' in parts some aspects of the physical world. Finding a correlation between this and the idea of the five elements, in my humble opinion, is still far fetched. I can understand some correlation between basic Quantum Mechanics, (at least the Copenhegan Interpretation) , non-locality etc, and the ideas of Indian mysticism, but a link between M-theory of panch-mahabhuta? !..> > > > > > > > > > > > Well, with the kind permission of Narasimha, I would like to know more about how exactly you can link these two, because I myself with my limited understand fail to see any viable correlation at all as of now, specially, since the M-theory is yet in a very nascent stage.> > > > > > > > > > > > The other thing one must think about is the basic nature of theoritical physics. Does physics describe reality? Or does it provide a model of reality? These two are different. Mathematics provides a tool/model to gauge reality. It need not be exactly as reality is. > > > > > > Which is why Richard Feynman once famously quoted that everyone knows that Quatum Mechanics works, but no one know what it really is!> > > > > > > > > > > > The idea of the pach mahabhuta and creation is almost the essence of everything. The day physics gets THAT deep, there would be really nothing more left to do. Physics is still quite far away from that stage.> > > > > > > > > > > > -Regards> > > > > > Rajarshi> > > > > > > > > > > > --- On Tue, 29/9/09, vedicastrostudent <vedicastrostudent@ > wrote:> > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Rajarshi,> > > > > > > > > > > > Not sure if I get the thrust of your point. Yes, sadhana is the only way to know this for sure. And so also for everything else that is below the reach of the senses (e.g. Atma, sookshma sarira etc). But we do read about them (all these things e.g Atma etc), and about the significance of the vedic gods anyway, dont we? They do offer a mild complement to sadhana, dont they? They do help make the mind more receptive toward the benefits of sadhana..> > > > > > > > > > > > Also wanted to assure you that I really want to know the answer to the question. I am not interested in a he-said/she- said type game (if perhaps that is what you were hinting at?). I am extremely curious as to why there is an order and not a parallelism, for e.g. why are the mahabhutas not simultaneously formed. There is some lesson in there (at least for me), and I want to get at it.. I feel there may be some correlation between that and the 11-dimensional physics of super string theory too, but I get ahead of myself..> > > > > > > > > > > > Regards,> > > > > > > > > > > > Sundeep> > > > > > > > > > > > , rajarshi nandy <rajarshi14@ ...> wrote:> > > > > > >> > > > > > > Dear Sundeep,> > > > > > > > > > > > > > With all due respect to your query, I wanted to ask, how does it matter? Can anyone here really know for sure which came after which? We can only speculate and guess and retrofit logic and quote one scripture vs another scripture. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Only practical way to really find out the truth is sadhana. That too if we are destined to find out we will, or else no.> > > > > > > > > > > > > > -Regards> > > > > > > Rajarshi> > > > > > > > > > > > > > The upsurge (of consciousness) is Bhairava - Shiva Sutra> > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- On Tue, 29/9/09, vedicastrostudent <vedicastrostudent@ ...> wrote:> > > > > > > > > > > > > > vedicastrostudent <vedicastrostudent@ ...>> > > > > > > Order of Creation (of mahabhuta/tattwa) ?> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Tuesday, 29 September, 2009, 1:12 AM> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Narasimhaji and others,> > > > > > > > > > > > > > In Taittiriya Upanishad (http://www.sacred- texts.com/ hin/sbe15/ sbe15034. htm), the following is the order of creation (Max Mueller interpretation) :> > > > > > > > > > > > > > "From that Self 2 (Brahman) sprang ether (ÃÆ'Æ'¢kÃÆ'Æ'¢sa, that through which we hear); from ether air (that through which we hear and feel); from air fire (that through which we hear, feel, and see); from fire water (that through which we hear, feel, see, and taste); from water earth (that through which we hear, feel, see, taste, and smell)"> > > > > > > > > > > > > > This sounds logical to me in that I expected Akasa to be first and earth to be last. I have heard differing opinions though, perhaps in Sanjay Rathji's Brhat Nakshtra but since I dont have the book in front of me, I cant confirm. Do you agree with the interpretation above, if not what is your belief, source and justification?> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thank you,> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sundeep> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Connect more, do more and share more with India Mail. Learn more. http://in.overview. mail.. com/> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From cricket scores to your friends. Try the India Homepage! http://in.. com/trynew> Now, send attachments up to 25MB with India Mail. Learn how. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 2, 2009 Report Share Posted October 2, 2009 || OM TAT SAT || Dear Sundeep, I have not read VC, no use telling me all that. Enumerating what I know about it : 1. " SuperEther " - a term coined by Paramahansa Yogananda for 2. an infinitely finer " non-material " tattwa, of which the causal cosmos - Isvara - is composed of. 3. It dissolves and creates Aakash tattwa, which constitutes and separates various layers of vibratroy material as the astral and physical cosmos. 4. It is supported by Sankhya in the creation of the 4 antahkarana principles - Buddhi, Manas, Ahamkara, and Chitta. These are non-material conscious principles, while any of the rest of 20 principles do not carry consciousness. 5. It is created as a result of " Satvic-Tamas " Guna Combination. 6. Whether you find a mention to this non-material tattwa or not, is immaterial. The indescribable consciousness of Soul, reflects through the help of this tattwa alone - you call it Mind-ether as Sri Ramana Maharishi or superEther as Yogananda, it doesn't matter. Thats it. 7. For your interest, I am giving you the reference of talks with Sri Ramana Maharishi - please, don't drag me in a discussion because am clear about it, but you may resolve all your doubts by reading the talks. Here is an Excerpt (Page 560): " ...Chidakasa (chit-ether) is Pure Knowledge only, It is the source of mind. Just at the moment of rising up, the mind is only light; only afterwards the thought " I am this " rises up; this `I-thought' forms the jiva and the world. The first light is the pure mind, the mind ether or Isvara. Its modes manifest as objects. Because it contains all these objects within itself it is called the mind-ether. Why ether? Like ether containing objects it contains the thoughts, therefore it is the mind-ether. Again, just as the physical ether though accommodating all the gross objects (the whole universe) is itself the content of the mind-ether, so also the latter is itself the content of Chit-ether. The last one is Chit Itself. There are no things contained in it. It remains as Pure Knowledge only.... " ON 3 GUNAS Satva is the light, Rajas is the subject, and Tamas is the object. Even the satva light is only reflected light. Were it pure, original Light, there would be no modification in it. The manokasa (mind-ether) is reflected as bhootakasa (element-ether) and objects are seen as being separate from the subject. Regards, Nitish , " vedicastrostudent " <vedicastrostudent wrote: > > Nitish, > > You clearly contradict Adi Sankara's Vivekacudamani (VC from here on). Please tell us why we should listen to you, not him. Specifically, you insist chitta is a tattwa. Whereas when VC uses the word Chitta as a verb, i.e. consciousness, then this property is only possessed by Brahman because only it is Sat-chitta-ananda. When VC uses this word as a noun, it is used as a modification of antahakarana (whose other three modifications are manas, ahamkara and buddhi). So to put this is context, VC clearly implies that at the material level of tattwas, we see the Linga Sarira. One of the constructs of Linga sarira is antahakrana. One of its " modifications " is chitta. I take this to mean (since I take that only Brahman can have true chitta (verb))it is that property of the antahakarana that, when enlivened by Brahman, gives awareness/consciousness to the Linga sarira. > > How exactly am I wrong. Only facts and explanations please, no proof by ridicule/intimidation. > > > Regards, > > Sundeep > > > > > > Patanjalis' Chitta Vrittis' correspond to the 5 tattwas and are all happening on the background of Chitta, the all-pervading 6th tattwa. The normal-human- experience happens by the 5 modifications/ movement of Chitta (finest creation). > > > > How would the Soul become aware of the more material Aakash Tattwa (and thus a single coherent self pervading the material physical body), if it were not standing behind the Chitta (SuperEther) ? > > > > Thus, all our experiences of matter are through non-material Chitta, and it doesn't imply that 6th tattwa doesn't exist. If you could calm all those modifications of Chitta, you would have your self-realized. > > > > > In Aajnaa chakra lies the primordial state of the universe where > > > there is just space and time, but no five elements. > > > > Nothing comes out from nothing. How can the lower tattwas evolve from higher tattwas, if even their subtle representations are purged from existence altogether ? > > > > Greatest of the Seers have already put down the scriptures in writing, so that people like us can benefit. > > > > Regards, > > Nitish > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 2, 2009 Report Share Posted October 2, 2009 Namaste Rajarshi, I don't have the book at the moment but it is my impression that the chapter indicated that the souls in the suvarna lokas have earlier reached the state of what we call " Kundalini rised to Sahsraar Chakra " . i haven't given a correct idea in my earlier message when i wrote " ...the souls who depart from Sahsraar... " . So i again repeat my query - Kundalini reaching and established in Sahasraar chakra is *Final Realisation - complete moksha from all bonds* or still there needs to pass through some still higher realm (say for instance Suvarna loka) to workout Karan Shareer/Aanandamaya Kosha. Best Regards, Utpal , rajarshi nandy <rajarshi14 wrote: > > Dear Utpalji, >  > Nice query. >  > Logically speaking, it maybe that " soul leaving the body " has does not mean mearging once self awareness into the Brahman. >  > -Regards >  Rajarshi > > > The upsurge (of consciousness) is Bhairava - Shiva Sutra > > --- On Thu, 1/10/09, vedic_pathak <vedic_pathak wrote: > > > vedic_pathak <vedic_pathak > Re: Order of Creation, Physics & Reality > > Thursday, 1 October, 2009, 10:47 AM > > >  > > > > Pranaams, > > >In Sahasrara chakra lies undifferentiated consciousness (Brahman or >Aatman),where there are no I-ness or any objectification. > > Does it mean that when consciousness reaches Sahasraar Chakra, one merges in to Brahman and that is the same state which is named varyingly as Realisation/ Jeevan Mukta/Nirvikalpa Samaadhi/Merging in to brahaman etc...? > > Why i asked you this question is because, i am little confused here. if i remember correctly, in " Auto Biography of a Yogi " , it is mentioned that only the souls who depart from Sahsraar are eligible to enter to Suvarnaa loka and then there they have to still work out the bondage of their Karana Shareera... > Is it not true that Chetana reaching Sahsraar means *practically* end of journey.? > > How to reconcile with the above to seemingly different informations? > > Best Regards, > > Utpal > > , Narasimha PVR Rao <pvr@> wrote: > > > > Namaste, > > > > I am only addressing the five elements mentioned in upanishads. > > > > In Sahasrara chakra lies undifferentiated consciousness (Brahman or Aatman), where there are no I-ness or any objectification. Just below it, there are several lokas that people do not mention normally. In Aajnaa chakra lies the primordial state of the universe where there is just space and time, but no five elements. From visuddhi chakra to moolaadhaara chakra lie the elements of ether, air, fire, water and earth as I mentioned. I only focused on the last five stages. > > > > What happens between Sahasrara and Aajnaa is known only to greatest of seers. It is true that several yogis can be established in Sahasrara, where there is no ego and no objectification. However, very very very few can understand what happens in the chakras just below Sahasrara and above Aajnaa, where there is still I-ness and objectification, but at a very very high level that is beyond the play of elements. > > > > There is a lot more happening between Sahasrara and Aajnaa than elsewhere, but we are not well-equipped to understand it... > > > > Best regards, > > Narasimha > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- - > > Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ homam > > Do Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ tarpana > > Spirituality: http://groups. / group/vedic- wisdom > > Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro. home.comcast. net > > Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAst rologer.org > > Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagan nath.org > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- - > > > > ---- yeeahoo_99 <nitish.arya@ ...> wrote: > > > || OM TAT SAT || > > > Dear Narasimha, > > > You mentioned 5 tattwas, while there are 6 tattwas - that are associated with the 6 cerebro-spinal chakras - a result of all possible combination of 3 gunas of nature. > > > > > > Gunas Tattwa Chakras > > > > > > Satvic Tamas - SuperEther - Medulla > > > Satvic Satva - Ether (Aakash tattwa) - Throat > > > Satvic Rajas - Air (Vayu tattwa) - Heart > > > Rajasic Rajas - Fire (Agni tattwa) - Navel > > > Rajasic Tamas - Water (Jala tattwa) - Sacral > > > Tamasic Tamas - Earth (Prithvi tattwa) - Coccygeal > > > > > > SuperEther > > > 1. All pervading Prana from which Aakash tattwa is created - refer RajaYoga of Vivekananda. > > > 2. Background of Aakash tattwa - Refer Gita Commentary of Yogananda > > > > > > It is the starting point if one begins to discuss about Creation in any sense... > > > Your comments. > > > Regards, > > > Nitish > > > > > > , Narasimha PVR Rao <pvr@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Namaste Sundeep and Rajarshi, > > > > > > > > Yes, Pt Rath's astrology book " Brihat Nakshatra " gives a different order of creation starting with water and ending with the pair of ether and earth. It seems to be his extrapolation. > > > > > > > > What you quoted from Taittariya Upanishad is the traditional view that I am familiar with. Other scriptures refer to the same order of creation, including " Yoga Vaasishtham " , where Maharshi Vasishtha teaches creation, destruction and liberation to Lord Rama. > > > > > > > > * * * > > > > > > > > This Upanishadic understanding is also consistent with chakra based understanding of Tantra. The five chakras downwards from Visuddhi chakra to Moolaadhaara chakra represent ether, air, fire, water and earth. When Kundalini leaves Moolaadhaara, earth element within one is surrendered, i.e. all traces of earth element are effaced in one's self-awareness. When Kundalini leaves Swaadhishthaana, water element within one is surrendered, i.e. all traces of water element are effaced in one's self-awareness. And so on. > > > > > > > > By earth and water etc, don't just think of physical earth and physical water etc. Earth element shows a solid state of existence. Water element shows a flexible and fluid state of existence. For example, an idea that one " owns " a particular thing (e.g. a car, a house, spouse, some knowledge etc) is of solid state and made of earth element. An idea that one " needs " a particular thing (e.g. a car, a house, spouse, some knowledge etc) is of the nature of water element. Thus, different mental concepts and ideas can be mapped to the five elements. > > > > > > > > When one thinks of " I " , one perhaps thinks of a body that looks and feels in a particular way physically. Apart from the physical aspect, one may think of " I " as someone who has certain qualities, certain needs, certain belongings etc. All those concepts one has about who one is, form one's self-awareness and Kundalini represents that self-awareness. Kundalini cannot leave Moolaadhaara chakra, if *anything* that is *solid* in nature within one's cumulative idea of who one is is still remaining. Kundalini cannot leave Swaadhishthaana chakra, if *anything* that is *solid* or *fluid* in nature within one's cumulative idea of who one is is still remaining. And so on. > > > > > > > > Many people who talk about experiences of Kundalini in higher chakras are often talking merely about some amount of vaayus flowing in those chakras (which may still be a nice experience) and have *not* experienced Kundalini actually being there. IF Kundalini really leaves Moolaadhaara, one will not perceive a solid body, one will not have notions of owning anything. Similarly, as Kundalini moves up each chakra, each element is effaced in one's cumulative idea of who one is, at the physical as well as the subtle level of existence! To completely efface even one element (earth) from one's notion of self ( " I " ), even for a short duration of time, is not at all easy. > > > > > > > > The order in which elements are effaced as one progresses towards samadhi is - earth, water, fire, air and ether. If Kundalini again comes down, effaced elements return to work in the reverse order - ether, air, fire, water and earth. > > > > > > > > * * * > > > > > > > > Regarding physics and spiritual realities: > > > > > > > > > Does physics describe reality? > > > > > > > > Physics tries to describe/model reality at the gross physical level, as perceived by the external senses. However, one's mind can " perceive " things without the external senses playing a role. > > > > > > > > As a simple example, one may be asleep and get a dream, in which one's mind may " see " some people and " hear " a conversation between them. In another example, a yogi may be meditating with a mantra with intense focus and " see " some scenes and/or " hear " some things. These things cannot be perceived by the external senses and hence cannot be studied by modern science. > > > > > > > > It is reasonable to define reality as something that can be perceived by the external senses, because different people can experience the same reality using their senses individually and verify the observation. However, some experiences of the mind that cannot be perceived by senses are sometimes very powerful and have a huge, life-altering and sometimes liberating influence on people. Inability to study and model them is a big drawback of modern science. > > > > > > > > * * * > > > > > > > > One may categorize dreams and internal yogic experiences as imaginations or hallucinations, because there is no independent validation, and call them unworthy of a study. But there are cases that make one wonder. For example, see the following messages from the archives. > > > > > > > > Mystical experiences of mind and mantras (message 951) > > > > http://groups. / group/vedic- wisdom/message/ 951 > > > > > > > > In the above message, one person had a specific yogic experience that was described in detail and another person seemed to know about it and supplied one tangible detail relating to the experience, suggesting that he too " observed " the experience of the first person, though it was beyond the external senses of either person! > > > > > > > > Re: Guru (message 391) > > > > http://groups. / group/vedic- wisdom/message/ 391 > > > > > > > > In the above message also, one person had a specific yogic experience that was described in detail and another person seemed to know about it and supplied a couple of tangible details relating to the experience, suggesting that he too " observed " the experience of the first person, though it was beyond the external senses of either person! > > > > > > > > Internal god and external god (message 2498) > > > > http://groups. / group/vedic- wisdom/message/ 2498 > > > > > > > > In the above message, one person had a specific yogic experience involving a deity and another person perceived with his external senses a vision involving the same deity, though others in the room could not perceive anything with their external senses, suggesting that the second person " observed " the experience of the first person through a specific prism. > > > > > > > > * * * > > > > > > > > Such examples cannot prove much, but they do suggest that perhaps *some* experiences that cannot be measured or perceived by the external senses are observable by others, though not everyone may be able to observe. Then, one cannot rule out the possibility of *some* experiences that cannot be measured or perceived by the external senses being a part of the " reality " that mind can access. > > > > > > > > But, how can modern science study it? > > > > > > > > Because the only thing that can be studied and measured is the reality involving the gross body and its senses, one may suggest that experiences of the subtle body may be studied by observing various parts of the gross physical body. For example, one can look at the nervous signals flowing through various parts of the brain and try to correlate them with the experiences of the subtle body. > > > > > > > > On the surface, it sounds like a great idea. But, it assumes that subtle body and causal body are redundant. Though there is some correspondence between what happens in the causal, subtle and gross bodies, it is a many-to-many mapping and NOT a one-to-one mapping, in which case the concept of causal and subtle bodies would be redundant, i.e. whatever they model can be moderled using just the gross body! > > > > > > > > If you drive through a neighborhood and observe the houses from the road, you can have *some* idea of what is going on. A particular house with a lot of lights and sound and many cars parked outside may be having a party. People in one particular house with no lights are probably out of town. But you can never be sure what is going on in the house, how many people are inside, what exactly they are doing etc, by merely looking at the house from outside. > > > > > > > > Similarly, by looking at the nervous signals in various points of the brain, you may be able to see some basic things, but not much. The experiences of the subtle mind are beyond your reach and study, if your tools are limited to the gross physical domain. > > > > > > > > * * * > > > > > > > > Unfortunately, modern science cannot study that part of the reality which is beyond the scope of external senses, unless scientists become yogis and develop mastery of the internal world. > > > > > > > > While rishis of ancient times had mastery of the internal world (which is the microcosm of the entire universe) and could observe any space-time point, even the greatest yogis of today cannot control their state completely. When Kundalini rises, it may go somewhere and one may experience some part of the Infinite Reality. But one cannot control exactly where Kundalini goes and exactly which part of the Infinite Reality one observes. Rishis seemed to have a perfect control. > > > > > > > > Best regards, > > > > Narasimha > > > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- - > > > > Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ homam > > > > Do Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ tarpana > > > > Spirituality: http://groups. / group/vedic- wisdom > > > > Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro. home.comcast. net > > > > Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAst rologer.org > > > > Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagan nath.org > > > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- - > > > > > > > > ---- rajarshi nandy <rajarshi14@ > wrote: > > > > > Sorry the previous mail went off incomplete. > > > > > > > > > > Dear Sundeep, > > > > > > > > > > Let me mention some stuff from the diaries of Sri Shamacharun Lahiri (a self realized Yogi of the highest order) - it maybe of some help to you. He did mention in details about the process of creation as he saw it. > > > > > > > > > > As per him, at the beginning was the point of ultimate chaos. Then from there came the " vidhyut " of Akash. As this " Vidyut " interacted with the chaos, it produced some universal energies which are more commonly known as the universal deities like Shiva, Vishnu etc etc. Then came the " Vidyut " of vayu ( none of these are the actual physical elements as we see it, but more the essence of the element, hence his use of the word " vidyut " and " taranga " ) whose interaction with the chaos resulted in some more energy states. Thus, in this way came, Agni, Apa and Prithwi, each one resulting from the previous and each one resulting in some energy states, which in the end resulted in 33 crore possible states of energy. > > > > > > > > > > There is some lesson in there (at least for me), and I want to get at it.. I feel there may be some correlation between that and the 11-dimensional physics of super string theory too, but I get ahead of myself.. > > > > > > > > > > This is a nice idea and I would like to know more about it. > > > > > > > > > > As much as I could fathom (I am no physicist, neither do I have the ability to penetrate the mathematics of the M-Theory), as it stands now, it is quite half formed. There being multiple theories of the String variety, adhered to by multiple physicists, the M-Theory (11 dimensional one) is one of the many which 'claim to explain' in parts some aspects of the physical world. Finding a correlation between this and the idea of the five elements, in my humble opinion, is still far fetched. I can understand some correlation between basic Quantum Mechanics, (at least the Copenhegan Interpretation) , non-locality etc, and the ideas of Indian mysticism, but a link between M-theory of panch-mahabhuta? !.. > > > > > > > > > > Well, with the kind permission of Narasimha, I would like to know more about how exactly you can link these two, because I myself with my limited understand fail to see any viable correlation at all as of now, specially, since the M-theory is yet in a very nascent stage. > > > > > > > > > > The other thing one must think about is the basic nature of theoritical physics. Does physics describe reality? Or does it provide a model of reality? These two are different. Mathematics provides a tool/model to gauge reality. It need not be exactly as reality is. > > > > > Which is why Richard Feynman once famously quoted that everyone knows that Quatum Mechanics works, but no one know what it really is! > > > > > > > > > > The idea of the pach mahabhuta and creation is almost the essence of everything. The day physics gets THAT deep, there would be really nothing more left to do. Physics is still quite far away from that stage. > > > > > > > > > > -Regards > > > > > Rajarshi > > > > > > > > > > --- On Tue, 29/9/09, vedicastrostudent <vedicastrostudent@ > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Dear Rajarshi, > > > > > > > > > > Not sure if I get the thrust of your point. Yes, sadhana is the only way to know this for sure. And so also for everything else that is below the reach of the senses (e.g. Atma, sookshma sarira etc). But we do read about them (all these things e.g Atma etc), and about the significance of the vedic gods anyway, dont we? They do offer a mild complement to sadhana, dont they? They do help make the mind more receptive toward the benefits of sadhana.. > > > > > > > > > > Also wanted to assure you that I really want to know the answer to the question. I am not interested in a he-said/she- said type game (if perhaps that is what you were hinting at?). I am extremely curious as to why there is an order and not a parallelism, for e.g. why are the mahabhutas not simultaneously formed. There is some lesson in there (at least for me), and I want to get at it.. I feel there may be some correlation between that and the 11-dimensional physics of super string theory too, but I get ahead of myself.. > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > > > Sundeep > > > > > > > > > > , rajarshi nandy <rajarshi14@ ....> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Sundeep, > > > > > > > > > > > > With all due respect to your query, I wanted to ask, how does it matter? Can anyone here really know for sure which came after which? We can only speculate and guess and retrofit logic and quote one scripture vs another scripture. > > > > > > > > > > > > Only practical way to really find out the truth is sadhana. That too if we are destined to find out we will, or else no. > > > > > > > > > > > > -Regards > > > > > > Rajarshi > > > > > > > > > > > > The upsurge (of consciousness) is Bhairava - Shiva Sutra > > > > > > > > > > > > --- On Tue, 29/9/09, vedicastrostudent <vedicastrostudent@ ...> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > vedicastrostudent <vedicastrostudent@ ...> > > > > > > Order of Creation (of mahabhuta/tattwa) ? > > > > > > > > > > > > Tuesday, 29 September, 2009, 1:12 AM > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Narasimhaji and others, > > > > > > > > > > > > In Taittiriya Upanishad (http://www.sacred- texts.com/ hin/sbe15/ sbe15034. htm), the following is the order of creation (Max Mueller interpretation) : > > > > > > > > > > > > " From that Self 2 (Brahman) sprang ether (ÃÆ'¢kÃÆ'¢sa, that through which we hear); from ether air (that through which we hear and feel); from air fire (that through which we hear, feel, and see); from fire water (that through which we hear, feel, see, and taste); from water earth (that through which we hear, feel, see, taste, and smell) " > > > > > > > > > > > > This sounds logical to me in that I expected Akasa to be first and earth to be last. I have heard differing opinions though, perhaps in Sanjay Rathji's Brhat Nakshtra but since I dont have the book in front of me, I cant confirm. Do you agree with the interpretation above, if not what is your belief, source and justification? > > > > > > > > > > > > Thank you, > > > > > > > > > > > > Sundeep > > > > > > > > > > > > > India has a new look. Take a sneak peek http://in./trynew > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 2, 2009 Report Share Posted October 2, 2009 Dear Nitish, Thank you for your clear writings this time. At least I understand it in a consistent framework now. Technically speaking, to unify both frameworks into a common ground, both frameworks seem to agree that the chitta of sookshma-sarira is not the pure chitta of brahman. The chitta of sookshma sarira has material impurity in it/has a material carrier. Your framework calls this material carrier the 6th tattwa, whereas in the VC framework, it seems logical to infer that the material carrier is some combination of the 5 tattwas. Also, your framework (by your own words), seems to imply that the 6th tattwa is the source of all the other 5, which are formed out of it *in parallel*, so to say. To cut a long line of reasoning short and get to the meat of the matter, I have one more question (so I can continue to unify the frameworks): (a) Is there a level of realization in which the 5 tattwas are calm, and only the 6th is active (b) Does this state have Ahamkara or not/does it correspond to any well known chakra? Regards, Sundeep , " yeeahoo_99 " <nitish.arya wrote: > > || OM TAT SAT || > Dear Sundeep, > > I have not read VC, no use telling me all that. > > Enumerating what I know about it : > > 1. " SuperEther " - a term coined by Paramahansa Yogananda for > > 2. an infinitely finer " non-material " tattwa, of which the causal cosmos - Isvara - is composed of. > > 3. It dissolves and creates Aakash tattwa, which constitutes and separates various layers of vibratroy material as the astral and physical cosmos. > > 4. It is supported by Sankhya in the creation of the 4 antahkarana principles - Buddhi, Manas, Ahamkara, and Chitta. These are non-material conscious principles, while any of the rest of 20 principles do not carry consciousness. > > 5. It is created as a result of " Satvic-Tamas " Guna Combination. > > 6. Whether you find a mention to this non-material tattwa or not, is immaterial. The indescribable consciousness of Soul, reflects through the help of this tattwa alone - you call it Mind-ether as Sri Ramana Maharishi or superEther as Yogananda, it doesn't matter. Thats it. > > 7. For your interest, I am giving you the reference of talks with Sri Ramana Maharishi - please, don't drag me in a discussion because am clear about it, but you may resolve all your doubts by reading the talks. Here is an Excerpt (Page 560): > > " ...Chidakasa (chit-ether) is Pure Knowledge only, It is the source > of mind. Just at the moment of rising up, the mind is only light; > only afterwards the thought " I am this " rises up; this `I-thought' > forms the jiva and the world. > > The first light is the pure mind, the mind ether or Isvara. Its modes manifest as objects. Because it contains all these objects within itself it is called the mind-ether. Why ether? Like ether containing objects it contains the thoughts, therefore it is the mind-ether. > > Again, just as the physical ether though accommodating all the gross objects (the whole universe) is itself the content of the mind-ether, so also the latter is itself the content of Chit-ether. The last one is Chit Itself. There are no things contained in it. It remains as Pure Knowledge only.... " > > > ON 3 GUNAS > > Satva is the light, > Rajas is the subject, and > Tamas is the object. > > Even the satva light is only reflected light. Were it pure, original Light, there would be no modification in it. The manokasa (mind-ether) is reflected as bhootakasa (element-ether) and objects are seen as being separate from the subject. > > Regards, > Nitish > > > , " vedicastrostudent " <vedicastrostudent@> wrote: > > > > Nitish, > > > > You clearly contradict Adi Sankara's Vivekacudamani (VC from here on). Please tell us why we should listen to you, not him. Specifically, you insist chitta is a tattwa. Whereas when VC uses the word Chitta as a verb, i.e. consciousness, then this property is only possessed by Brahman because only it is Sat-chitta-ananda. When VC uses this word as a noun, it is used as a modification of antahakarana (whose other three modifications are manas, ahamkara and buddhi). So to put this is context, VC clearly implies that at the material level of tattwas, we see the Linga Sarira. One of the constructs of Linga sarira is antahakrana. One of its " modifications " is chitta. I take this to mean (since I take that only Brahman can have true chitta (verb))it is that property of the antahakarana that, when enlivened by Brahman, gives awareness/consciousness to the Linga sarira. > > > > How exactly am I wrong. Only facts and explanations please, no proof by ridicule/intimidation. > > > > > > Regards, > > > > Sundeep > > > > > > > > > > > Patanjalis' Chitta Vrittis' correspond to the 5 tattwas and are all happening on the background of Chitta, the all-pervading 6th tattwa. The normal-human- experience happens by the 5 modifications/ movement of Chitta (finest creation). > > > > > > How would the Soul become aware of the more material Aakash Tattwa (and thus a single coherent self pervading the material physical body), if it were not standing behind the Chitta (SuperEther) ? > > > > > > Thus, all our experiences of matter are through non-material Chitta, and it doesn't imply that 6th tattwa doesn't exist. If you could calm all those modifications of Chitta, you would have your self-realized. > > > > > > > In Aajnaa chakra lies the primordial state of the universe where > > > > there is just space and time, but no five elements. > > > > > > Nothing comes out from nothing. How can the lower tattwas evolve from higher tattwas, if even their subtle representations are purged from existence altogether ? > > > > > > Greatest of the Seers have already put down the scriptures in writing, so that people like us can benefit. > > > > > > Regards, > > > Nitish > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 2, 2009 Report Share Posted October 2, 2009 Dear Narasimhaji, What exactly is your proof that effacing of tattwas/chakras must be pursued in serial order? The well known Pt. Gopi Krishna, who only meditated on Sahasrara (crown of his head) had the experience appended below, please read if you havent seen it earlier. Also what is your proof that meditating on a chakra effaces it - this is not obvious - why might it not intensify it while purifying it? Is there any definitive text on Kundalini (Sat cakra nirupana is just too broad and symbolic for me).. Regards, Sundeep Gopi Krishna: " Over a period of years, he developed the ability to sit for a period of hours in concentration without any discomfort. The following account which took place in 1937 describes his first Kundalini experience which occurred while he was visualizing " an imaginary Lotus in full bloom, radiating light " at the crown of his head. Suddenly, with a roar like that of a waterfall, I felt a stream of liquid light entering my brain through the spinal cord. Entirely unprepared for such a development, I was completely taken by surprise; but regaining my self-control, keeping my mind on the point of concentration. The illumination grew brighter and brighter, the roaring louder, I experienced a rocking sensation and then felt myself slipping out of my body, entirely enveloped in a halo of light. It is impossible to describe the experience accurately. I felt the point of consciousness that was myself growing wider surrounded by waves of light. It grew wider and wider, spreading outward while the body, normally the immediate object of its perception, appeared to have receded into the distance until I became entirely unconscious of it. I was now all consciousness without any outline, without any idea of corporeal appendage, without any feeling or sensation coming from the senses, immersed in a sea of light simultaneously conscious and aware at every point, spread out, as it were, in all directions without any barrier or material obstruction. I was no longer myself, or to be more accurate, no longer as I knew myself to be, a small point of awareness confined to a body, but instead was a vast circle of consciousness in which the body was but a point, bathed in light and in a state of exultation and happiness impossible to describe. Krishna, Pandit Gopi, Kundalini: Path to Higher Consciousness (New Delhi: Orient Paperbacks, 1992), pps. 6-7 " > > When one thinks of " I " , one perhaps thinks of a body that looks and feels in a particular way physically. Apart from the physical aspect, one may think of " I " as someone who has certain qualities, certain needs, certain belongings etc. All those concepts one has about who one is, form one's self-awareness and Kundalini represents that self-awareness. Kundalini cannot leave Moolaadhaara chakra, if *anything* that is *solid* in nature within one's cumulative idea of who one is is still remaining. Kundalini cannot leave Swaadhishthaana chakra, if *anything* that is *solid* or *fluid* in nature within one's cumulative idea of who one is is still remaining. And so on. > > Many people who talk about experiences of Kundalini in higher chakras are often talking merely about some amount of vaayus flowing in those chakras (which may still be a nice experience) and have *not* experienced Kundalini actually being there. IF Kundalini really leaves Moolaadhaara, one will not perceive a solid body, one will not have notions of owning anything. Similarly, as Kundalini moves up each chakra, each element is effaced in one's cumulative idea of who one is, at the physical as well as the subtle level of existence! To completely efface even one element (earth) from one's notion of self ( " I " ), even for a short duration of time, is not at all easy. > > The order in which elements are effaced as one progresses towards samadhi is - earth, water, fire, air and ether. If Kundalini again comes down, effaced elements return to work in the reverse order - ether, air, fire, water and earth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 3, 2009 Report Share Posted October 3, 2009 || OM TAT SAT || Dear Sundeep, I am writing an article on the 6th Tattwa, that will put it all together in a coherent essence. Answers to your questions: > (a) Is there a level of realization in which the 5 tattwas are > calm, and only the 6th is active 1. Transfer your consciousness to your Causal-body or Causal-cosmos. They are constituted of SuperEther (mind-stuff), which is why it is a tattva at all! About Causal Cosmos, Sri Yukteswar says in Autobiography of a Yogi: .... " The causal world is indescribably subtle, " he replied. " In order to understand it, one would have to possess such tremendous powers of concentration that he could close his eyes and visualize the astral cosmos and the physical cosmos in all their vastness-the luminous balloon with the solid basket-as existing in ideas only. If by this superhuman concentration one succeeded in converting or resolving the two cosmoses with all their complexities into sheer ideas, he would then reach the causal world and stand on the borderline of fusion between mind and matter.... > (b) Does this state have Ahamkara or not/does it correspond to any > well known chakra? 2. It doesn't have Ahamkara, but Chitta as the basis of sense of I-ness. Read my previous mail on " Gyan Marg " to Narasimha. Antahkaran Dominates sense of I-ness Ahamkara - dominant in Physical body/Cosmos [Adhibhautik] Manas - dominant in Astral body/Cosmos [AdhiDaivik] Chitta - dominant in Causal body/Cosmos [Adhyatmic] Medulla, the 6th Chakra - presiding consciouness ISHWAR or Causal Macrocosmic consciousness. > in the VC framework, it seems logical to infer that the material > carrier is some combination of the 5 tattwas. There is only one framework, only the terminologies are different. That is all. Regards, Nitish , " vedicastrostudent " <vedicastrostudent wrote: > > Dear Nitish, > Thank you for your clear writings this time. At least I understand it in a consistent framework now. Technically speaking, to unify both frameworks into a common ground, both frameworks seem to agree that the chitta of sookshma-sarira is not the pure chitta of brahman. The chitta of sookshma sarira has material impurity in it/has a material carrier. Your framework calls this material carrier the 6th tattwa, whereas in the VC framework, it seems logical to infer that the material carrier is some combination of the 5 tattwas. Also, your framework (by your own words), seems to imply that the 6th tattwa is the source of all the other 5, which are formed out of it *in parallel*, so to say. To cut a long line of reasoning short and get to the meat of the matter, I have one more question (so I can continue to unify the frameworks): (a) Is there a level of realization in which the 5 tattwas are calm, and only the 6th is active (b) Does this state have Ahamkara or not/does it correspond to any well known chakra? > > Regards, > > Sundeep > > > , " yeeahoo_99 " <nitish.arya@> wrote: > > > > || OM TAT SAT || > > Dear Sundeep, > > > > I have not read VC, no use telling me all that. > > > > Enumerating what I know about it : > > > > 1. " SuperEther " - a term coined by Paramahansa Yogananda for > > > > 2. an infinitely finer " non-material " tattwa, of which the causal cosmos - Isvara - is composed of. > > > > 3. It dissolves and creates Aakash tattwa, which constitutes and separates various layers of vibratroy material as the astral and physical cosmos. > > > > 4. It is supported by Sankhya in the creation of the 4 antahkarana principles - Buddhi, Manas, Ahamkara, and Chitta. These are non-material conscious principles, while any of the rest of 20 principles do not carry consciousness. > > > > 5. It is created as a result of " Satvic-Tamas " Guna Combination. > > > > 6. Whether you find a mention to this non-material tattwa or not, is immaterial. The indescribable consciousness of Soul, reflects through the help of this tattwa alone - you call it Mind-ether as Sri Ramana Maharishi or superEther as Yogananda, it doesn't matter. Thats it. > > > > 7. For your interest, I am giving you the reference of talks with Sri Ramana Maharishi - please, don't drag me in a discussion because am clear about it, but you may resolve all your doubts by reading the talks. Here is an Excerpt (Page 560): > > > > " ...Chidakasa (chit-ether) is Pure Knowledge only, It is the source > > of mind. Just at the moment of rising up, the mind is only light; > > only afterwards the thought " I am this " rises up; this `I-thought' > > forms the jiva and the world. > > > > The first light is the pure mind, the mind ether or Isvara. Its modes manifest as objects. Because it contains all these objects within itself it is called the mind-ether. Why ether? Like ether containing objects it contains the thoughts, therefore it is the mind-ether. > > > > Again, just as the physical ether though accommodating all the gross objects (the whole universe) is itself the content of the mind-ether, so also the latter is itself the content of Chit-ether. The last one is Chit Itself. There are no things contained in it. It remains as Pure Knowledge only.... " > > > > > > ON 3 GUNAS > > > > Satva is the light, > > Rajas is the subject, and > > Tamas is the object. > > > > Even the satva light is only reflected light. Were it pure, original Light, there would be no modification in it. The manokasa (mind-ether) is reflected as bhootakasa (element-ether) and objects are seen as being separate from the subject. > > > > Regards, > > Nitish > > > > > > , " vedicastrostudent " <vedicastrostudent@> wrote: > > > > > > Nitish, > > > > > > You clearly contradict Adi Sankara's Vivekacudamani (VC from here on). Please tell us why we should listen to you, not him. Specifically, you insist chitta is a tattwa. Whereas when VC uses the word Chitta as a verb, i.e. consciousness, then this property is only possessed by Brahman because only it is Sat-chitta-ananda. When VC uses this word as a noun, it is used as a modification of antahakarana (whose other three modifications are manas, ahamkara and buddhi). So to put this is context, VC clearly implies that at the material level of tattwas, we see the Linga Sarira. One of the constructs of Linga sarira is antahakrana. One of its " modifications " is chitta. I take this to mean (since I take that only Brahman can have true chitta (verb))it is that property of the antahakarana that, when enlivened by Brahman, gives awareness/consciousness to the Linga sarira. > > > > > > How exactly am I wrong. Only facts and explanations please, no proof by ridicule/intimidation. > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > Sundeep > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Patanjalis' Chitta Vrittis' correspond to the 5 tattwas and are all happening on the background of Chitta, the all-pervading 6th tattwa. The normal-human- experience happens by the 5 modifications/ movement of Chitta (finest creation). > > > > > > > > How would the Soul become aware of the more material Aakash Tattwa (and thus a single coherent self pervading the material physical body), if it were not standing behind the Chitta (SuperEther) ? > > > > > > > > Thus, all our experiences of matter are through non-material Chitta, and it doesn't imply that 6th tattwa doesn't exist. If you could calm all those modifications of Chitta, you would have your self-realized. > > > > > > > > > In Aajnaa chakra lies the primordial state of the universe where > > > > > there is just space and time, but no five elements. > > > > > > > > Nothing comes out from nothing. How can the lower tattwas evolve from higher tattwas, if even their subtle representations are purged from existence altogether ? > > > > > > > > Greatest of the Seers have already put down the scriptures in writing, so that people like us can benefit. > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > Nitish > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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