Guest guest Posted September 29, 2009 Report Share Posted September 29, 2009 Dear Vijay, We can see the difference between a body with prana and with out prana. Can't we? Then, why can we try to narrow our focus and try to see prana/atma sceintifically? I am not for this path, but, to say, that is not a path, is perhaps unfair to all those who are destine to traverse that path. My statement was not against the "path of Gyana". Indeed it is one of the finest path I am sure. However, my understanding of this path differs a little from your understanding. Gyana, I believe, is not really study of scriptures or scholarly arguments, pros and con, debates etc etc. Gyana, in my opinion, is a state of being, where one percieves a certain oneness in the universe. It is achieved through sadhana. To be constantly in a state of discrimination between real and not-real, rejecting the non-real, such that whatever is finally left is nothing but the eternal. This is the sadhana of the marga called Gyan. But sadhana it is without a doubt. Whatever be the path, sadhana is a must to achieve the results. Adi Shankara, they say, was an expert in the scriptures and scriptural debates. But I feel, he engaged in all these once he had already become a gyani through his sadhana. He was not a gyani because he debated a lot or knew many scriptures, he was a gyani because he had achieved a state of oneness. IMHO, scriptural knowledge is not the marg of gyana.Gyana marg is more complex and requires more than mere intellectual abilities. -Regards Rajarshi The upsurge (of consciousness) is Bhairava - Shiva Sutra--- On Tue, 29/9/09, pvklnrao <pvklnrao wrote: pvklnrao <pvklnrao Re: Order of Creation (of mahabhuta/tattwa)? Date: Tuesday, 29 September, 2009, 11:09 AM Rajarshi,With all due respect, I disagree.There is no question that is useless and there is no answer that is not relavent. The reason we are not able to perceive God is not that God is not there, but, given our current way of thinking, he can not be perceived. By Sadhana, you are trying to calm your mind and infact, make your current knowledge influence irrelavent which allows you to percieve thing you can not otherwise.There are 4 known margas for self realisation. My understanding of any of these limited.1. Bhakthi - Surrender to God. Here you rest all other thoughts but for thought pertaining to God. You do not question any thing related to him and give-in completely to the believe that he is there and is your master. By doing so, you are coming out of the clutches of the regular perceptions or dimentions of this material world.2. Raja - You focus on doing specific postures and concentrate deeply on the way you do things and draw your self away from the regular senses.3. Karma - Unattached karma. If you can do it, you are not even thinking about God, but, have got him.4. jnana - By questioning available information, using logic and try to break out of current assumptions and try to discover. Saying, this will not yield results is not a wise thing. How ever, perhaps, this is the most defficult. But, with so many others who are experiancing God, not sure, why the wrong in current axioms can not be corrected. Unfortunately, those who are realised, do not perhaps think it is relavent.There is a soul. Now is Soul physical or not? Can it be seen? If not with naked eyes, to see it materialistically, what is needed?We can see the difference between a body with prana and with out prana. Can't we? Then, why can we try to narrow our focus and try to see prana/atma sceintifically? I am not for this path, but, to say, that is not a path, is perhaps unfair to all those who are destine to traverse that path.Best regards,Vijay, rajarshi nandy <rajarshi14@ ...> wrote:>> Dear Sundeep,> > With all due respect to your query, I wanted to ask, how does it matter? Can anyone here really know for sure which came after which? We can only speculate and guess and retrofit logic and quote one scripture vs another scripture. > > Only practical way to really find out the truth is sadhana. That too if we are destined to find out we will, or else no.> > -Regards> Rajarshi> > > The upsurge (of consciousness) is Bhairava - Shiva Sutra> > --- On Tue, 29/9/09, vedicastrostudent <vedicastrostudent@ ...> wrote:> > > vedicastrostudent <vedicastrostudent@ ...>> Order of Creation (of mahabhuta/tattwa) ?> > Tuesday, 29 September, 2009, 1:12 AM> > > > > > > Dear Narasimhaji and others,> > In Taittiriya Upanishad (http://www.sacred- texts.com/ hin/sbe15/ sbe15034. htm), the following is the order of creation (Max Mueller interpretation) :> > "From that Self 2 (Brahman) sprang ether (âkâsa, that through which we hear); from ether air (that through which we hear and feel); from air fire (that through which we hear, feel, and see); from fire water (that through which we hear, feel, see, and taste); from water earth (that through which we hear, feel, see, taste, and smell)"> > This sounds logical to me in that I expected Akasa to be first and earth to be last. I have heard differing opinions though, perhaps in Sanjay Rathji's Brhat Nakshtra but since I dont have the book in front of me, I cant confirm. Do you agree with the interpretation above, if not what is your belief, source and justification?> > Thank you,> > Sundeep> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Add whatever you love to the India homepage. Try now! http://in.. com/trynew> Add whatever you love to the India homepage. Try now! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 29, 2009 Report Share Posted September 29, 2009 namaste A note from the preface to " Enlightening Expositions " which describes the life of the former pontiff of the Sringeri Sharada peetham, Sri Abhinava Vidyateertha Swami -- " Acharyal found great joy in meditating on Bala Ambal, and had His first experience of Savikalpa Samadhi before He was 18 years old. By the time He was 20, He had already attained Nirvikalpa Samadhi and by repeated attainment of this sublime state, had become a Jeevanmukta. But the paradoxical part of this was that Acharyal had already attained the Highest before He was 20, but His formal lessons in Vedanta commenced only after He was 23 ! " bhavadiiyaH, ajit rajarshi nandy wrote: > Whatever be the path, sadhana is a must to achieve the results. Adi Shankara, they say, was an expert in the scriptures and scriptural debates. But I feel, he engaged in all these once he had already become a gyani through his sadhana. He was not a gyani because he debated a lot or knew many scriptures, he was a gyani because he had achieved a state of oneness. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 29, 2009 Report Share Posted September 29, 2009 Namaste, Gyaani or jnaani is a wise and learned person, who may or may not debate (or even engage) with others. One may become a gyaani using either gyaana yoga or bhakti yoga or karma yoga or raaja yoga. Gyaana/jnaana yoga is a path of pursuing the Supreme through intellectual analysis. One pursuing that path may or may not debate with others and may or may not read many scriptures, but one will analyze and debate within oneself. One starts with the basic axioms (e.g. Self is imperishable and without a beginning or an end). One will go on eliminating things that one is aware of as not being Self. For example, body has a beginning and end and is perishable. So it is not Self. One introspects like this and, though the process of elimination, finally finds the true Self. That is gyaana yoga. Pure gyaana yoga is very difficult to follow in this age. Vichaara (contemplation) is the process of sadhana for an adherer of pure gyaana yoga. However, the gyaana (knowledge of Self) achieved by such a person at the end is not really different from the knowledge of Self achieved by a person following another path. Best regards,NarasimhaDo a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAstrologer.org/homamDo Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAstrologer.org/tarpanaSpirituality: Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro.home.comcast.netFree Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAstrologer.orgJyotish writings: JyotishWritingsSri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagannath.org - rajarshi nandy Tuesday, September 29, 2009 4:03 AM Gyan Marga Dear Vijay, We can see the difference between a body with prana and with out prana. Can't we? Then, why can we try to narrow our focus and try to see prana/atma sceintifically? I am not for this path, but, to say, that is not a path, is perhaps unfair to all those who are destine to traverse that path. My statement was not against the "path of Gyana". Indeed it is one of the finest path I am sure. However, my understanding of this path differs a little from your understanding. Gyana, I believe, is not really study of scriptures or scholarly arguments, pros and con, debates etc etc. Gyana, in my opinion, is a state of being, where one percieves a certain oneness in the universe. It is achieved through sadhana. To be constantly in a state of discrimination between real and not-real, rejecting the non-real, such that whatever is finally left is nothing but the eternal. This is the sadhana of the marga called Gyan. But sadhana it is without a doubt. Whatever be the path, sadhana is a must to achieve the results. Adi Shankara, they say, was an expert in the scriptures and scriptural debates. But I feel, he engaged in all these once he had already become a gyani through his sadhana. He was not a gyani because he debated a lot or knew many scriptures, he was a gyani because he had achieved a state of oneness. IMHO, scriptural knowledge is not the marg of gyana.Gyana marg is more complex and requires more than mere intellectual abilities. -Regards Rajarshi The upsurge (of consciousness) is Bhairava - Shiva Sutra--- On Tue, 29/9/09, pvklnrao <pvklnrao wrote: pvklnrao <pvklnrao Re: Order of Creation (of mahabhuta/tattwa)? Date: Tuesday, 29 September, 2009, 11:09 AM Rajarshi,With all due respect, I disagree.There is no question that is useless and there is no answer that is not relavent. The reason we are not able to perceive God is not that God is not there, but, given our current way of thinking, he can not be perceived. By Sadhana, you are trying to calm your mind and infact, make your current knowledge influence irrelavent which allows you to percieve thing you can not otherwise.There are 4 known margas for self realisation. My understanding of any of these limited.1. Bhakthi - Surrender to God. Here you rest all other thoughts but for thought pertaining to God. You do not question any thing related to him and give-in completely to the believe that he is there and is your master. By doing so, you are coming out of the clutches of the regular perceptions or dimentions of this material world.2. Raja - You focus on doing specific postures and concentrate deeply on the way you do things and draw your self away from the regular senses.3. Karma - Unattached karma. If you can do it, you are not even thinking about God, but, have got him.4. jnana - By questioning available information, using logic and try to break out of current assumptions and try to discover. Saying, this will not yield results is not a wise thing. How ever, perhaps, this is the most defficult. But, with so many others who are experiancing God, not sure, why the wrong in current axioms can not be corrected. Unfortunately, those who are realised, do not perhaps think it is relavent.There is a soul. Now is Soul physical or not? Can it be seen? If not with naked eyes, to see it materialistically, what is needed?We can see the difference between a body with prana and with out prana. Can't we? Then, why can we try to narrow our focus and try to see prana/atma sceintifically? I am not for this path, but, to say, that is not a path, is perhaps unfair to all those who are destine to traverse that path.Best regards,Vijay, rajarshi nandy <rajarshi14@ ...> wrote:>> Dear Sundeep,> > With all due respect to your query, I wanted to ask, how does it matter? Can anyone here really know for sure which came after which? We can only speculate and guess and retrofit logic and quote one scripture vs another scripture. > > Only practical way to really find out the truth is sadhana. That too if we are destined to find out we will, or else no.> > -Regards> Rajarshi> > > The upsurge (of consciousness) is Bhairava - Shiva Sutra> > --- On Tue, 29/9/09, vedicastrostudent <vedicastrostudent@ ...> wrote:> > > vedicastrostudent <vedicastrostudent@ ...>> Order of Creation (of mahabhuta/tattwa) ?> > Tuesday, 29 September, 2009, 1:12 AM> > > > > > > Dear Narasimhaji and others,> > In Taittiriya Upanishad (http://www.sacred- texts.com/ hin/sbe15/ sbe15034. htm), the following is the order of creation (Max Mueller interpretation) :> > "From that Self 2 (Brahman) sprang ether (âkâsa, that through which we hear); from ether air (that through which we hear and feel); from air fire (that through which we hear, feel, and see); from fire water (that through which we hear, feel, see, and taste); from water earth (that through which we hear, feel, see, taste, and smell)"> > This sounds logical to me in that I expected Akasa to be first and earth to be last. I have heard differing opinions though, perhaps in Sanjay Rathji's Brhat Nakshtra but since I dont have the book in front of me, I cant confirm. Do you agree with the interpretation above, if not what is your belief, source and justification?> > Thank you,> > Sundeep> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Add whatever you love to the India homepage. Try now! http://in.. com/trynew> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 30, 2009 Report Share Posted September 30, 2009 || OM TAT SAT || Dear Narasimha, In my opinion, there are three distinct phases that lead the sould to rise above Ego, Mind and Chitta - corresponding to the three bodies physical (Sthoola), astral (Sookshma) and causal (Karana) resp. Rising above Ego is Jnana - Merging Physical body in Physical cosmos Rising above Mind is Vairagya - Merging Astral body in Astral cosmos Rising above Chitta is Yoga - Merging Causal body in Causal cosmos Finally, becoming established in Para-Brahman is YogaArudha. Your comments. Regards, Nitish , " Narasimha P.V.R. Rao " <pvr wrote: > > Namaste, > > Gyaani or jnaani is a wise and learned person, who may or may not debate (or even engage) with others. One may become a gyaani using either gyaana yoga or bhakti yoga or karma yoga or raaja yoga. > > Gyaana/jnaana yoga is a path of pursuing the Supreme through intellectual analysis. One pursuing that path may or may not debate with others and may or may not read many scriptures, but one will analyze and debate within oneself. One starts with the basic axioms (e.g. Self is imperishable and without a beginning or an end). One will go on eliminating things that one is aware of as not being Self. For example, body has a beginning and end and is perishable. So it is not Self. One introspects like this and, though the process of elimination, finally finds the true Self. That is gyaana yoga. Pure gyaana yoga is very difficult to follow in this age. > > Vichaara (contemplation) is the process of sadhana for an adherer of pure gyaana yoga. > > However, the gyaana (knowledge of Self) achieved by such a person at the end is not really different from the knowledge of Self achieved by a person following another path. > > Best regards, > Narasimha > > Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAstrologer.org/homam > Do Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAstrologer.org/tarpana > Spirituality: > Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro.home.comcast.net > Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAstrologer.org > Jyotish writings: JyotishWritings > Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagannath.org > > > - > rajarshi nandy > > Tuesday, September 29, 2009 4:03 AM > Gyan Marga > > > > > Dear Vijay, > > We can see the difference between a body with prana and with out prana. Can't we? Then, why can we try to narrow our focus and try to see prana/atma sceintifically? I am not for this path, but, to say, that is not a path, is perhaps unfair to all those who are destine to traverse that path. > > My statement was not against the " path of Gyana " . Indeed it is one of the finest path I am sure. > > However, my understanding of this path differs a little from your understanding. Gyana, I believe, is not really study of scriptures or scholarly arguments, pros and con, debates etc etc. Gyana, in my opinion, is a state of being, where one percieves a certain oneness in the universe. It is achieved through sadhana. To be constantly in a state of discrimination between real and not-real, rejecting the non-real, such that whatever is finally left is nothing but the eternal. This is the sadhana of the marga called Gyan. But sadhana it is without a doubt. > > Whatever be the path, sadhana is a must to achieve the results. Adi Shankara, they say, was an expert in the scriptures and scriptural debates. But I feel, he engaged in all these once he had already become a gyani through his sadhana. He was not a gyani because he debated a lot or knew many scriptures, he was a gyani because he had achieved a state of oneness. > > IMHO, scriptural knowledge is not the marg of gyana.Gyana marg is more complex and requires more than mere intellectual abilities. > > -Regards > Rajarshi > > The upsurge (of consciousness) is Bhairava - Shiva Sutra > > > --- On Tue, 29/9/09, pvklnrao <pvklnrao wrote: > > > pvklnrao <pvklnrao > Re: Order of Creation (of mahabhuta/tattwa)? > > Tuesday, 29 September, 2009, 11:09 AM > > > > Rajarshi, > > With all due respect, I disagree. > > There is no question that is useless and there is no answer that is not relavent. The reason we are not able to perceive God is not that God is not there, but, given our current way of thinking, he can not be perceived. By Sadhana, you are trying to calm your mind and infact, make your current knowledge influence irrelavent which allows you to percieve thing you can not otherwise. > > There are 4 known margas for self realisation. My understanding of any of these limited. > 1. Bhakthi - Surrender to God. Here you rest all other thoughts but for thought pertaining to God. You do not question any thing related to him and give-in completely to the believe that he is there and is your master. By doing so, you are coming out of the clutches of the regular perceptions or dimentions of this material world. > > 2. Raja - You focus on doing specific postures and concentrate deeply on the way you do things and draw your self away from the regular senses. > > 3. Karma - Unattached karma. If you can do it, you are not even thinking about God, but, have got him. > > 4. jnana - By questioning available information, using logic and try to break out of current assumptions and try to discover. Saying, this will not yield results is not a wise thing. How ever, perhaps, this is the most defficult. But, with so many others who are experiancing God, not sure, why the wrong in current axioms can not be corrected. Unfortunately, those who are realised, do not perhaps think it is relavent. > > There is a soul. Now is Soul physical or not? Can it be seen? If not with naked eyes, to see it materialistically, what is needed? > > We can see the difference between a body with prana and with out prana. Can't we? Then, why can we try to narrow our focus and try to see prana/atma sceintifically? I am not for this path, but, to say, that is not a path, is perhaps unfair to all those who are destine to traverse that path. > Best regards, > Vijay > , rajarshi nandy <rajarshi14@ ....> wrote: > > > > Dear Sundeep, > > > > With all due respect to your query, I wanted to ask, how does it matter? Can anyone here really know for sure which came after which? We can only speculate and guess and retrofit logic and quote one scripture vs another scripture. > > > > Only practical way to really find out the truth is sadhana. That too if we are destined to find out we will, or else no. > > > > -Regards > > Rajarshi > > > > > > The upsurge (of consciousness) is Bhairava - Shiva Sutra > > > > --- On Tue, 29/9/09, vedicastrostudent <vedicastrostudent@ ...> wrote: > > > > > > vedicastrostudent <vedicastrostudent@ ...> > > Order of Creation (of mahabhuta/tattwa) ? > > > > Tuesday, 29 September, 2009, 1:12 AM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Narasimhaji and others, > > > > In Taittiriya Upanishad (http://www.sacred- texts.com/ hin/sbe15/ sbe15034. htm), the following is the order of creation (Max Mueller interpretation) : > > > > " From that Self 2 (Brahman) sprang ether (âkâsa, that through which we hear); from ether air (that through which we hear and feel); from air fire (that through which we hear, feel, and see); from fire water (that through which we hear, feel, see, and taste); from water earth (that through which we hear, feel, see, taste, and smell) " > > > > This sounds logical to me in that I expected Akasa to be first and earth to be last. I have heard differing opinions though, perhaps in Sanjay Rathji's Brhat Nakshtra but since I dont have the book in front of me, I cant confirm. Do you agree with the interpretation above, if not what is your belief, source and justification? > > > > Thank you, > > > > Sundeep > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Add whatever you love to the India homepage. Try now! http://in.. com/trynew > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 30, 2009 Report Share Posted September 30, 2009 Namaste Nitish, I am afraid you are mixing up terminologies. For example, ego or ahamkaara (sense of I-ness) is not limited to the physical body, but extends to subtle body and causal body as well. In fact, ego resides in the causal body and affects other bodies. Out of the four antahkaranas, chitta (remembering or conditioned mind) and ahamkaara (ego or I-ness) are parts of the kaarana sareera (causal body) and remain till the end. Ahamkaara/ego controls manas and buddhi also. When manas (sensory-motor mind) observes sensory inputs or buddhi (intellectual or thinking mind) analyzes current and past observations of mind or chitta (remembering or conditioned mind) stores various observations or retrieves previously stored observations, they are all guided by the sense of I-ness. That sense of I-ness permeates through all layers of one's individualized consciousness. Upanishads and various scriptures have broken down the individualized consciousness into various groups by functionality, like five koshas, three sareeras, five praanas, five jnaanendriyas, five karmendriyas, four antahkaranas, six/seven chakras etc. But ego/ahamkaara/I-ness is the very basis of the entire individualized consciousness. Though the word jnaana means different things to different people, a jnaana yogi pursues Self by the path of contemplation and discrimination. When a jnaana yogi reaches the final target, all bodies and koshas are merged in cosmos. Best regards, Narasimha Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAstrologer.org/homam Do Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAstrologer.org/tarpana Spirituality: Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro.home.comcast.net Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAstrologer.org Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagannath.org ---- yeeahoo_99 <nitish.arya wrote: > || OM TAT SAT || > Dear Narasimha, > In my opinion, there are three distinct phases that lead the sould to rise above Ego, Mind and Chitta - corresponding to the three bodies physical (Sthoola), astral (Sookshma) and causal (Karana) resp. > > Rising above Ego is Jnana - Merging Physical body in Physical cosmos > Rising above Mind is Vairagya - Merging Astral body in Astral cosmos > Rising above Chitta is Yoga - Merging Causal body in Causal cosmos > > Finally, becoming established in Para-Brahman is YogaArudha. > > Your comments. > Regards, > Nitish > > , " Narasimha P.V.R. Rao " <pvr wrote: > > > > Namaste, > > > > Gyaani or jnaani is a wise and learned person, who may or may not debate (or even engage) with others. One may become a gyaani using either gyaana yoga or bhakti yoga or karma yoga or raaja yoga. > > > > Gyaana/jnaana yoga is a path of pursuing the Supreme through intellectual analysis. One pursuing that path may or may not debate with others and may or may not read many scriptures, but one will analyze and debate within oneself. One starts with the basic axioms (e.g. Self is imperishable and without a beginning or an end). One will go on eliminating things that one is aware of as not being Self. For example, body has a beginning and end and is perishable. So it is not Self. One introspects like this and, though the process of elimination, finally finds the true Self. That is gyaana yoga. Pure gyaana yoga is very difficult to follow in this age. > > > > Vichaara (contemplation) is the process of sadhana for an adherer of pure gyaana yoga. > > > > However, the gyaana (knowledge of Self) achieved by such a person at the end is not really different from the knowledge of Self achieved by a person following another path. > > > > Best regards, > > Narasimha > > > > Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAstrologer.org/homam > > Do Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAstrologer.org/tarpana > > Spirituality: > > Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro.home.comcast.net > > Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAstrologer.org > > Jyotish writings: JyotishWritings > > Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagannath.org > > > > > > - > > rajarshi nandy > > > > Tuesday, September 29, 2009 4:03 AM > > Gyan Marga > > > > Dear Vijay, > > > > We can see the difference between a body with prana and with out prana. Can't we? Then, why can we try to narrow our focus and try to see prana/atma sceintifically? I am not for this path, but, to say, that is not a path, is perhaps unfair to all those who are destine to traverse that path. > > > > My statement was not against the " path of Gyana " . Indeed it is one of the finest path I am sure. > > > > However, my understanding of this path differs a little from your understanding. Gyana, I believe, is not really study of scriptures or scholarly arguments, pros and con, debates etc etc. Gyana, in my opinion, is a state of being, where one percieves a certain oneness in the universe. It is achieved through sadhana. To be constantly in a state of discrimination between real and not-real, rejecting the non-real, such that whatever is finally left is nothing but the eternal. This is the sadhana of the marga called Gyan. But sadhana it is without a doubt. > > > > Whatever be the path, sadhana is a must to achieve the results. Adi Shankara, they say, was an expert in the scriptures and scriptural debates. But I feel, he engaged in all these once he had already become a gyani through his sadhana. He was not a gyani because he debated a lot or knew many scriptures, he was a gyani because he had achieved a state of oneness. > > > > IMHO, scriptural knowledge is not the marg of gyana.Gyana marg is more complex and requires more than mere intellectual abilities. > > > > -Regards > > Rajarshi > > > > The upsurge (of consciousness) is Bhairava - Shiva Sutra > > > > > > --- On Tue, 29/9/09, pvklnrao <pvklnrao wrote: > > > > > > pvklnrao <pvklnrao > > Re: Order of Creation (of mahabhuta/tattwa)? > > > > Tuesday, 29 September, 2009, 11:09 AM > > > > Rajarshi, > > > > With all due respect, I disagree. > > > > There is no question that is useless and there is no answer that is not relavent. The reason we are not able to perceive God is not that God is not there, but, given our current way of thinking, he can not be perceived. By Sadhana, you are trying to calm your mind and infact, make your current knowledge influence irrelavent which allows you to percieve thing you can not otherwise. > > > > There are 4 known margas for self realisation. My understanding of any of these limited. > > 1. Bhakthi - Surrender to God. Here you rest all other thoughts but for thought pertaining to God. You do not question any thing related to him and give-in completely to the believe that he is there and is your master. By doing so, you are coming out of the clutches of the regular perceptions or dimentions of this material world. > > > > 2. Raja - You focus on doing specific postures and concentrate deeply on the way you do things and draw your self away from the regular senses. > > > > 3. Karma - Unattached karma. If you can do it, you are not even thinking about God, but, have got him. > > > > 4. jnana - By questioning available information, using logic and try to break out of current assumptions and try to discover. Saying, this will not yield results is not a wise thing. How ever, perhaps, this is the most defficult. But, with so many others who are experiancing God, not sure, why the wrong in current axioms can not be corrected. Unfortunately, those who are realised, do not perhaps think it is relavent. > > > > There is a soul. Now is Soul physical or not? Can it be seen? If not with naked eyes, to see it materialistically, what is needed? > > > > We can see the difference between a body with prana and with out prana. Can't we? Then, why can we try to narrow our focus and try to see prana/atma sceintifically? I am not for this path, but, to say, that is not a path, is perhaps unfair to all those who are destine to traverse that path. > > Best regards, > > Vijay > > , rajarshi nandy <rajarshi14@ ....> wrote: > > > > > > Dear Sundeep, > > > > > > With all due respect to your query, I wanted to ask, how does it matter? Can anyone here really know for sure which came after which? We can only speculate and guess and retrofit logic and quote one scripture vs another scripture. > > > > > > Only practical way to really find out the truth is sadhana. That too if we are destined to find out we will, or else no. > > > > > > -Regards > > > Rajarshi > > > > > > > > > The upsurge (of consciousness) is Bhairava - Shiva Sutra > > > > > > --- On Tue, 29/9/09, vedicastrostudent <vedicastrostudent@ ...> wrote: > > > > > > > > > vedicastrostudent <vedicastrostudent@ ...> > > > Order of Creation (of mahabhuta/tattwa) ? > > > > > > Tuesday, 29 September, 2009, 1:12 AM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Narasimhaji and others, > > > > > > In Taittiriya Upanishad (http://www.sacred- texts.com/ hin/sbe15/ sbe15034. htm), the following is the order of creation (Max Mueller interpretation) : > > > > > > " From that Self 2 (Brahman) sprang ether (âkâsa, that through which we hear); from ether air (that through which we hear and feel); from air fire (that through which we hear, feel, and see); from fire water (that through which we hear, feel, see, and taste); from water earth (that through which we hear, feel, see, taste, and smell) " > > > > > > This sounds logical to me in that I expected Akasa to be first and earth to be last. I have heard differing opinions though, perhaps in Sanjay Rathji's Brhat Nakshtra but since I dont have the book in front of me, I cant confirm. Do you agree with the interpretation above, if not what is your belief, source and justification? > > > > > > Thank you, > > > > > > Sundeep Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 1, 2009 Report Share Posted October 1, 2009 || OM TAT SAT || Dear Narasimha, Please Ignore my previous-mail, it was not completed - i will try to delete it. Am not mixing up the terminologies, though my mail didn't go in details. Your understanding is flawed. 1. All ideas including the idea of Ahamkara naturally belong to the ideational or causal body, but Ahamkara must be overcome only in the physical body (See point 5.). Astral or Causal-bodied beings (those without a physical/astral body) don't have to fight with the idea of Ahamkara like we do. > Ahamkaara/ego controls manas and buddhi also. When manas (sensory- > ...they are all guided by the sense of I-ness. That sense of I-ness > permeates through all layers of one's individualized consciousness. 2. Where did you read this up ? There is a fine line between the sense of I-ness attributed to the Individual Soul and the sense of I-ness derived through the idea of Ahamkara. Even after a Soul is freed of the three bodies, the individuality of the Soul Atom is not destroyed (Resurrection implies that), while it has already given up the idea of Ahamkara including all other ideas. Individuality of a causal-bodied being is not due to the idea of Ahamkara because " What exists as a part cannot be the whole " . Thus, the idea of Ahamkara, being one of the 35 ideas of the Causal-body, doesn't account for neither controls the rest of the 34 ideas. Each idea is independent of another, without requiring another idea to act upon it - otherwise your buddhi would always interfere with the functioning of Mind or Ahamkara or the 5 functions of life-forces and so on. Essentially, the 35 ideas of causal body are the basic causal forces and are not related as cause-effect to each other. Thus, each is independent of the application of the sense of I-ness derived from Ahamkara. Manas and Buddhi being two of the Causal-ideas, their functioning as well as existence is not " controlled " nor " derived " in any way by the idea of Ahamkara. It is very clear when we see those with sharpest Buddhi or Sharpest Mind still carrying Heaviest Ahamkara, because they didn't work upon that particular idea. > But ego/ahamkaara/I-ness is the very basis of the entire > individualized consciousness. 3. Well, as most Physical-bodied beings cannot see through the Astral/causal cosmoses, it doesn't apply in the same way to the finer Astral and Causal-bodied beings who can always pierce the veil of Maya and see the human activities. Thus, what is " the very basis " of the entire individualized consciousness for a physical-bodied (unenlightened) being is not the same as for an astral/causal bodied being. An Astral-bodied being thinks of Manas/sense-consciousness as the very basis of the entire individualized consciousness. A Causal-bodied being thinks of Chitta/perceptive-consciousness as the very basis of the entire individualized consciousness. However, that individuality is of the Soul not derived from any idea, which is why it is not lost when the Astral being loses astral consciousness and reincarnates in the Physical body. As an example, Devatas, with their finer bodies, are able to work through all the beings in all their physical-bodies simultaneously (like Ganesh resides in the Mooladhara, Agni digests the food, and so on..), never getting controlled by Ahamkara that would require them to say that this particular body is " my body " or that one is mine - unless they incarnate in Physical bodies themselves. Devatas are, however, Astral/Causal-bodied beings, so they would attempt to influence the Manas (Spirit-Possession) of the sense-bound worshipper. Pretas on the other hand, would attempt to possess ones' physical body as well as act out their Ahamkara. > Out of the four antahkaranas, chitta (remembering or conditioned > mind) and ahamkaara (ego or I-ness) are parts of the kaarana > sareera (causal body) and remain till the end. 4. As per the resurrected Soul of Sri Yukteswar in Autobiography of a Yogi - Causal body is a matrix of 35 ideas, that include 19 ideas comprising Astral body (Chitta, Manas, Buddhi, Ahamkara, 5 functions of knowledge, 5 functions of Action, 5 functions of life-force) and 16 ideas comprising Physical body (16 chemical elements). Now, as we all know that Physical body expires as a whole, not just one or two of the 16 elements comprising it go away at a time, Astral and Causal bodies are also cast off as a whole in the corresponding cosmic consciousness - instead of different constituent ideas slipping out of it at different times. Chitta being the staging idea for all other modifications, can be termed as the last to go, when the causal body is finally dropped - hence I wrote as rising above Chitta. Thus, the idea of Ahamkara is bound with Gross Physical vibrations, Manas with Subtle Astral vibrations and Chitta with infinitely Subtle Causal Vibrations. Buddhi being another variable, can be developed or undeveloped irrespective of the other 34. Even illiterate Moodha, through surrender to their Guru, attain freedom from Ahamkara and so on... BTW, Chitta is not the Conditioned Mind. Chitta does store the residual impressions of all the past incarnations. However, being constituted of Satwa Guna, it doesn't have any inherent ability to act upon (Rajas) those impressions, just like a container containing an inflammable liquid doesn't automatically burn it down. Sadhana is required for That. The Samskaras stored by Chitta, including those of Nidra, Smriti, Vikalpa, Viparyaya, Pramana, correspond to the Tamo Guna, while the Chitta itself is Satva Guna - hence the " Satvic - Tamas " represents the SuperEther tattwa (refer my previous mail). The all-perceiving Satvic Chitta doesn't get conditioned by the Tamo-guni Samskaras it stores. Once the Chitta calms down, cleared of all residual impressions, only Satva Guna remains, the intuition becomes coherent and the Soul reflects on itself as distinct from Satva Guna of Prakriti (Chitta), thus realizing its own nature as Brahman. 5. In Patanjali Yoga Sutras: drigadarshanaktyorekatmataivasmita -6 Egoism is the identification of the seer with the instrument of seeing. Patanjali has used Asmita instead of Ahamkara. Since astral-bodied beings can use any of the senses like eyes to see, hear, smell, taste and so on (refer Autobiography of a Yogi)... the sense of egoism does not take roots in the astral-body and hence doesn't create Astral Karma. Similarly, Causal bodied beings can use thought to sense everything. Hence, Egotism has to be rooted out while the consciousness is associated with the Physical Body sensory activities or has Physical Karma. 6. The idea of Manas, as the controller of sense-consciousness, must be overcome in Astral body, through Vairagya. Read autobiography of a Yogi (chapter 43) where Sri Yukteswar illustrates that only those beings who cannot be tempted to go back to the pleasing to the eye Astral cosmos are permitted to stay permanently in the Causal cosmos. Pleasing to the eye implies Sense-consciousness which is associated with Manas. In Patanjali Yoga Sutras also it is mentioned in the same manner : dristanushravika vishaya vitrishnasya vashikara samjnavairagyam -15- That effect which comes to these who have given up their thirst after objects, either seen or heard, and which wills to control the objects, is non-attachment. Vivekananda has commented that Vairagya is the only way to freedom. This is to be accomplished by transferring the consciousness to Astral-Body and working out the Astral Karma or otherwise as an astral-bodied being. 7. Patanjali Yoga Sutras: yogashchittavrittinirodhah -2- Thus, extinguishing all the movements of Chitta is called " Yoga " . This is to be accomplished by transferring the consciousness to Causal-Body and working out the Causal Karma or otherwise as a causal-bodied being. I hope this clarifies. Regards, Nitish , Narasimha PVR Rao <pvr wrote: > > Namaste Nitish, > > I am afraid you are mixing up terminologies. For example, ego or ahamkaara (sense of I-ness) is not limited to the physical body, but extends to subtle body and causal body as well. In fact, ego resides in the causal body and affects other bodies. Out of the four antahkaranas, chitta (remembering or conditioned mind) and ahamkaara (ego or I-ness) are parts of the kaarana sareera (causal body) and remain till the end. > > Ahamkaara/ego controls manas and buddhi also. When manas (sensory-motor mind) observes sensory inputs or buddhi (intellectual or thinking mind) analyzes current and past observations of mind or chitta (remembering or conditioned mind) stores various observations or retrieves previously stored observations, they are all guided by the sense of I-ness. That sense of I-ness permeates through all layers of one's individualized consciousness. > > Upanishads and various scriptures have broken down the individualized consciousness into various groups by functionality, like five koshas, three sareeras, five praanas, five jnaanendriyas, five karmendriyas, four antahkaranas, six/seven chakras etc. But ego/ahamkaara/I-ness is the very basis of the entire individualized consciousness. > > Though the word jnaana means different things to different people, a jnaana yogi pursues Self by the path of contemplation and discrimination. When a jnaana yogi reaches the final target, all bodies and koshas are merged in cosmos. > > Best regards, > Narasimha > > Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAstrologer.org/homam > Do Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAstrologer.org/tarpana > Spirituality: > Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro.home.comcast.net > Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAstrologer.org > Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagannath.org > > > ---- yeeahoo_99 <nitish.arya wrote: > > || OM TAT SAT || > > Dear Narasimha, > > In my opinion, there are three distinct phases that lead the sould to rise above Ego, Mind and Chitta - corresponding to the three bodies physical (Sthoola), astral (Sookshma) and causal (Karana) resp. > > > > Rising above Ego is Jnana - Merging Physical body in Physical cosmos > > Rising above Mind is Vairagya - Merging Astral body in Astral cosmos > > Rising above Chitta is Yoga - Merging Causal body in Causal cosmos > > > > Finally, becoming established in Para-Brahman is YogaArudha. > > > > Your comments. > > Regards, > > Nitish > > > > , " Narasimha P.V.R. Rao " <pvr@> wrote: > > > > > > Namaste, > > > > > > Gyaani or jnaani is a wise and learned person, who may or may not debate (or even engage) with others. One may become a gyaani using either gyaana yoga or bhakti yoga or karma yoga or raaja yoga. > > > > > > Gyaana/jnaana yoga is a path of pursuing the Supreme through intellectual analysis. One pursuing that path may or may not debate with others and may or may not read many scriptures, but one will analyze and debate within oneself. One starts with the basic axioms (e.g. Self is imperishable and without a beginning or an end). One will go on eliminating things that one is aware of as not being Self. For example, body has a beginning and end and is perishable. So it is not Self. One introspects like this and, though the process of elimination, finally finds the true Self. That is gyaana yoga. Pure gyaana yoga is very difficult to follow in this age. > > > > > > Vichaara (contemplation) is the process of sadhana for an adherer of pure gyaana yoga. > > > > > > However, the gyaana (knowledge of Self) achieved by such a person at the end is not really different from the knowledge of Self achieved by a person following another path. > > > > > > Best regards, > > > Narasimha > > > > > > Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAstrologer.org/homam > > > Do Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAstrologer.org/tarpana > > > Spirituality: > > > Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro.home.comcast.net > > > Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAstrologer.org > > > Jyotish writings: JyotishWritings > > > Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagannath.org > > > > > > > > > - > > > rajarshi nandy > > > > > > Tuesday, September 29, 2009 4:03 AM > > > Gyan Marga > > > > > > Dear Vijay, > > > > > > We can see the difference between a body with prana and with out prana. Can't we? Then, why can we try to narrow our focus and try to see prana/atma sceintifically? I am not for this path, but, to say, that is not a path, is perhaps unfair to all those who are destine to traverse that path. > > > > > > My statement was not against the " path of Gyana " . Indeed it is one of the finest path I am sure. > > > > > > However, my understanding of this path differs a little from your understanding. Gyana, I believe, is not really study of scriptures or scholarly arguments, pros and con, debates etc etc. Gyana, in my opinion, is a state of being, where one percieves a certain oneness in the universe. It is achieved through sadhana. To be constantly in a state of discrimination between real and not-real, rejecting the non-real, such that whatever is finally left is nothing but the eternal. This is the sadhana of the marga called Gyan. But sadhana it is without a doubt. > > > > > > Whatever be the path, sadhana is a must to achieve the results. Adi Shankara, they say, was an expert in the scriptures and scriptural debates. But I feel, he engaged in all these once he had already become a gyani through his sadhana. He was not a gyani because he debated a lot or knew many scriptures, he was a gyani because he had achieved a state of oneness. > > > > > > IMHO, scriptural knowledge is not the marg of gyana.Gyana marg is more complex and requires more than mere intellectual abilities. > > > > > > -Regards > > > Rajarshi > > > > > > The upsurge (of consciousness) is Bhairava - Shiva Sutra > > > > > > > > > --- On Tue, 29/9/09, pvklnrao <pvklnrao@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > pvklnrao <pvklnrao@> > > > Re: Order of Creation (of mahabhuta/tattwa)? > > > > > > Tuesday, 29 September, 2009, 11:09 AM > > > > > > Rajarshi, > > > > > > With all due respect, I disagree. > > > > > > There is no question that is useless and there is no answer that is not relavent. The reason we are not able to perceive God is not that God is not there, but, given our current way of thinking, he can not be perceived. By Sadhana, you are trying to calm your mind and infact, make your current knowledge influence irrelavent which allows you to percieve thing you can not otherwise. > > > > > > There are 4 known margas for self realisation. My understanding of any of these limited. > > > 1. Bhakthi - Surrender to God. Here you rest all other thoughts but for thought pertaining to God. You do not question any thing related to him and give-in completely to the believe that he is there and is your master. By doing so, you are coming out of the clutches of the regular perceptions or dimentions of this material world. > > > > > > 2. Raja - You focus on doing specific postures and concentrate deeply on the way you do things and draw your self away from the regular senses. > > > > > > 3. Karma - Unattached karma. If you can do it, you are not even thinking about God, but, have got him. > > > > > > 4. jnana - By questioning available information, using logic and try to break out of current assumptions and try to discover. Saying, this will not yield results is not a wise thing. How ever, perhaps, this is the most defficult. But, with so many others who are experiancing God, not sure, why the wrong in current axioms can not be corrected. Unfortunately, those who are realised, do not perhaps think it is relavent. > > > > > > There is a soul. Now is Soul physical or not? Can it be seen? If not with naked eyes, to see it materialistically, what is needed? > > > > > > We can see the difference between a body with prana and with out prana. Can't we? Then, why can we try to narrow our focus and try to see prana/atma sceintifically? I am not for this path, but, to say, that is not a path, is perhaps unfair to all those who are destine to traverse that path. > > > Best regards, > > > Vijay > > > , rajarshi nandy <rajarshi14@ ...> wrote: > > > > > > > > Dear Sundeep, > > > > > > > > With all due respect to your query, I wanted to ask, how does it matter? Can anyone here really know for sure which came after which? We can only speculate and guess and retrofit logic and quote one scripture vs another scripture. > > > > > > > > Only practical way to really find out the truth is sadhana. That too if we are destined to find out we will, or else no. > > > > > > > > -Regards > > > > Rajarshi > > > > > > > > > > > > The upsurge (of consciousness) is Bhairava - Shiva Sutra > > > > > > > > --- On Tue, 29/9/09, vedicastrostudent <vedicastrostudent@ ....> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > vedicastrostudent <vedicastrostudent@ ...> > > > > Order of Creation (of mahabhuta/tattwa) ? > > > > > > > > Tuesday, 29 September, 2009, 1:12 AM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Narasimhaji and others, > > > > > > > > In Taittiriya Upanishad (http://www.sacred- texts.com/ hin/sbe15/ sbe15034. htm), the following is the order of creation (Max Mueller interpretation) : > > > > > > > > " From that Self 2 (Brahman) sprang ether (âkâsa, that through which we hear); from ether air (that through which we hear and feel); from air fire (that through which we hear, feel, and see); from fire water (that through which we hear, feel, see, and taste); from water earth (that through which we hear, feel, see, taste, and smell) " > > > > > > > > This sounds logical to me in that I expected Akasa to be first and earth to be last. I have heard differing opinions though, perhaps in Sanjay Rathji's Brhat Nakshtra but since I dont have the book in front of me, I cant confirm. Do you agree with the interpretation above, if not what is your belief, source and justification? > > > > > > > > Thank you, > > > > > > > > Sundeep > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 3, 2009 Report Share Posted October 3, 2009 Namaste, Out of the 19 or 35 attributes of individualized consciousness, which one gives the idea " I am this " or " I am that " ? Of course, it is ahamkaraka or I-ness or egosense or ego principle! Is one's idea of " I am this " limited to a physical body? Of course not! If someone says " so and so person is a terrible person " , one may feel offended or if someone says " so and so person is a great person " , one may feel elated. One's ahamkara or I-ness is identifying with the criticism or praise, even though nothing is being done to the physical body and only a name is being used. When somebody calls one by name from distance (as opposed to patting on the physical body and calling), one's consciousness may still think " I am being called " and one may turn towards the caller. As in these examples, one's I-ness does of course bind itself to more than a body. Suppose one gets a dream while sleeping. One may have forgotten totally about the physical body in the dream! One may think of something else as " I " . In dreams, one may see oneself as a different body or may not even " see " onself, but still one may have the sense that so and so thing is happening to " me " . So, even when the mind is drawn away from the physical body, there is still a notion of " I am this " (I-ness) in a dream. That is ahamkara or I-ness or ego principle. Your idea that ahamkara is limited to physical body is absolutely unacceptable. Ahamkara or I-ness extends beyond the physical body. Also, your idea that deities like Agni do not have ahamkara (I-ness) because they do not have physical bodies is incorrect. Of course, Agni does have an I-ness and thinks " I am Agni and this is what I do " . If he did not have that I-ness, he would not do everything he does. Moreover, the 19 or 35 ideas of individualized consciousness do interact with each other, whether we use the word " control " for some of those interactions or not. For example, buddhi (intellectual/discriminating mind) judges various past experiences, interacts with manas (sensory-motor mind) and tells it what to do. Then manas interacts with karmendriyas (organs of action) and makes them do various things. My buddhi determined what to write and my manas told my hands to type this and I ended up typing. Your point about " what exists as a part cannot be the whole " is totally out of place. The sense of I-ness, the memories and conditioning, the logical mind, the sensory-motor mind, karmendriyas etc are all different parts of individualized consciousness and they play different roles while interacting with each other in different ways. Some of those interactions may be deemed to be controls. > Am not mixing up the terminologies, though my mail didn't > go in details. Your understanding is flawed. > > 2. Where did you read this up ? One does not " read up " these things in a single place. There are different abstractions and breakdowns of what happens in individualized consciousness. There are several sources that speak of different aspects of this knowledge in slightly different terms. One will assimilate this knowledge better if one reads as many sources as possible and contemplates. Best regards, Narasimha Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAstrologer.org/homam Do Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAstrologer.org/tarpana Spirituality: Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro.home.comcast.net Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAstrologer.org Jyotish writings: JyotishWritings Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagannath.org ---- yeeahoo_99 <nitish.arya wrote: > || OM TAT SAT || > Dear Narasimha, > Please Ignore my previous-mail, it was not completed - i will try to delete it. > > Am not mixing up the terminologies, though my mail didn't go in details. Your understanding is flawed. > > 1. All ideas including the idea of Ahamkara naturally belong to the ideational or causal body, but Ahamkara must be overcome only in the physical body (See point 5.). Astral or Causal-bodied beings (those without a physical/astral body) don't have to fight with the idea of Ahamkara like we do. > > > Ahamkaara/ego controls manas and buddhi also. When manas (sensory- > > ...they are all guided by the sense of I-ness. That sense of I-ness > > permeates through all layers of one's individualized consciousness. > > 2. Where did you read this up ? > > There is a fine line between the sense of I-ness attributed to the Individual Soul and the sense of I-ness derived through the idea of Ahamkara. Even after a Soul is freed of the three bodies, the individuality of the Soul Atom is not destroyed (Resurrection implies that), while it has already given up the idea of Ahamkara including all other ideas. > > Individuality of a causal-bodied being is not due to the idea of Ahamkara because " What exists as a part cannot be the whole " . Thus, the idea of Ahamkara, being one of the 35 ideas of the Causal-body, doesn't account for neither controls the rest of the 34 ideas. Each idea is independent of another, without requiring another idea to act upon it - otherwise your buddhi would always interfere with the functioning of Mind or Ahamkara or the 5 functions of life-forces and so on. > > Essentially, the 35 ideas of causal body are the basic causal forces and are not related as cause-effect to each other. Thus, each is independent of the application of the sense of I-ness derived from Ahamkara. Manas and Buddhi being two of the Causal-ideas, their functioning as well as existence is not " controlled " nor " derived " in any way by the idea of Ahamkara. It is very clear when we see those with sharpest Buddhi or Sharpest Mind still carrying Heaviest Ahamkara, because they didn't work upon that particular idea. > > > > But ego/ahamkaara/I-ness is the very basis of the entire > > individualized consciousness. > > 3. Well, as most Physical-bodied beings cannot see through the Astral/causal cosmoses, it doesn't apply in the same way to the finer Astral and Causal-bodied beings who can always pierce the veil of Maya and see the human activities. Thus, what is " the very basis " of the entire individualized consciousness for a physical-bodied (unenlightened) being is not the same as for an astral/causal bodied being. > An Astral-bodied being thinks of Manas/sense-consciousness as the very basis of the entire individualized consciousness. > A Causal-bodied being thinks of Chitta/perceptive-consciousness as the very basis of the entire individualized consciousness. > However, that individuality is of the Soul not derived from any idea, which is why it is not lost when the Astral being loses astral consciousness and reincarnates in the Physical body. > > As an example, Devatas, with their finer bodies, are able to work through all the beings in all their physical-bodies simultaneously (like Ganesh resides in the Mooladhara, Agni digests the food, and so on..), never getting controlled by Ahamkara that would require them to say that this particular body is " my body " or that one is mine - unless they incarnate in Physical bodies themselves. Devatas are, however, Astral/Causal-bodied beings, so they would attempt to influence the Manas (Spirit-Possession) of the sense-bound worshipper. Pretas on the other hand, would attempt to possess ones' physical body as well as act out their Ahamkara. > > > > Out of the four antahkaranas, chitta (remembering or conditioned > > mind) and ahamkaara (ego or I-ness) are parts of the kaarana > > sareera (causal body) and remain till the end. > > 4. As per the resurrected Soul of Sri Yukteswar in Autobiography of a Yogi - > > Causal body is a matrix of 35 ideas, that include 19 ideas comprising Astral body (Chitta, Manas, Buddhi, Ahamkara, 5 functions of knowledge, 5 functions of Action, 5 functions of life-force) and 16 ideas comprising Physical body (16 chemical elements). > > Now, as we all know that Physical body expires as a whole, not just one or two of the 16 elements comprising it go away at a time, Astral and Causal bodies are also cast off as a whole in the corresponding cosmic consciousness - instead of different constituent ideas slipping out of it at different times. Chitta being the staging idea for all other modifications, can be termed as the last to go, when the causal body is finally dropped - hence I wrote as rising above Chitta. > > Thus, the idea of Ahamkara is bound with Gross Physical vibrations, > Manas with Subtle Astral vibrations and > Chitta with infinitely Subtle Causal Vibrations. > > Buddhi being another variable, can be developed or undeveloped irrespective of the other 34. Even illiterate Moodha, through surrender to their Guru, attain freedom from Ahamkara and so on... > > BTW, Chitta is not the Conditioned Mind. Chitta does store the residual impressions of all the past incarnations. However, being constituted of Satwa Guna, it doesn't have any inherent ability to act upon (Rajas) those impressions, just like a container containing an inflammable liquid doesn't automatically burn it down. Sadhana is required for That. > The Samskaras stored by Chitta, including those of Nidra, Smriti, Vikalpa, Viparyaya, Pramana, correspond to the Tamo Guna, while the Chitta itself is Satva Guna - hence the " Satvic - Tamas " represents the SuperEther tattwa (refer my previous mail). The all-perceiving Satvic Chitta doesn't get conditioned by the Tamo-guni Samskaras it stores. > Once the Chitta calms down, cleared of all residual impressions, only Satva Guna remains, the intuition becomes coherent and the Soul reflects on itself as distinct from Satva Guna of Prakriti (Chitta), thus realizing its own nature as Brahman. > > 5. > In Patanjali Yoga Sutras: > drigadarshanaktyorekatmataivasmita -6 > Egoism is the identification of the seer with the instrument of seeing. Patanjali has used Asmita instead of Ahamkara. > Since astral-bodied beings can use any of the senses like eyes to see, hear, smell, taste and so on (refer Autobiography of a Yogi)... the sense of egoism does not take roots in the astral-body and hence doesn't create Astral Karma. Similarly, Causal bodied beings can use thought to sense everything. > > Hence, Egotism has to be rooted out while the consciousness is associated with the Physical Body sensory activities or has Physical Karma. > > 6. The idea of Manas, as the controller of sense-consciousness, must be overcome in Astral body, through Vairagya. Read autobiography of a Yogi (chapter 43) where Sri Yukteswar illustrates that only those beings who cannot be tempted to go back to the pleasing to the eye Astral cosmos are permitted to stay permanently in the Causal cosmos. Pleasing to the eye implies Sense-consciousness which is associated with Manas. > > In Patanjali Yoga Sutras also it is mentioned in the same manner : > > dristanushravika vishaya vitrishnasya vashikara samjnavairagyam -15- > > That effect which comes to these who have given up their thirst after objects, either seen or heard, and which wills to control the objects, is non-attachment. Vivekananda has commented that Vairagya is the only way to freedom. > > This is to be accomplished by transferring the consciousness to Astral-Body and working out the Astral Karma or otherwise as an astral-bodied being. > > 7. Patanjali Yoga Sutras: > yogashchittavrittinirodhah -2- > Thus, extinguishing all the movements of Chitta is called " Yoga " . > > This is to be accomplished by transferring the consciousness to Causal-Body and working out the Causal Karma or otherwise as a causal-bodied being. > > I hope this clarifies. > > Regards, > Nitish > > , Narasimha PVR Rao <pvr wrote: > > > > Namaste Nitish, > > > > I am afraid you are mixing up terminologies. For example, ego or ahamkaara (sense of I-ness) is not limited to the physical body, but extends to subtle body and causal body as well. In fact, ego resides in the causal body and affects other bodies. Out of the four antahkaranas, chitta (remembering or conditioned mind) and ahamkaara (ego or I-ness) are parts of the kaarana sareera (causal body) and remain till the end. > > > > Ahamkaara/ego controls manas and buddhi also. When manas (sensory-motor mind) observes sensory inputs or buddhi (intellectual or thinking mind) analyzes current and past observations of mind or chitta (remembering or conditioned mind) stores various observations or retrieves previously stored observations, they are all guided by the sense of I-ness. That sense of I-ness permeates through all layers of one's individualized consciousness. > > > > Upanishads and various scriptures have broken down the individualized consciousness into various groups by functionality, like five koshas, three sareeras, five praanas, five jnaanendriyas, five karmendriyas, four antahkaranas, six/seven chakras etc. But ego/ahamkaara/I-ness is the very basis of the entire individualized consciousness. > > > > Though the word jnaana means different things to different people, a jnaana yogi pursues Self by the path of contemplation and discrimination. When a jnaana yogi reaches the final target, all bodies and koshas are merged in cosmos. > > > > Best regards, > > Narasimha > > > > Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAstrologer.org/homam > > Do Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAstrologer.org/tarpana > > Spirituality: > > Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro.home.comcast.net > > Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAstrologer.org > > Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagannath.org > > > > > > ---- yeeahoo_99 <nitish.arya wrote: > > > || OM TAT SAT || > > > Dear Narasimha, > > > In my opinion, there are three distinct phases that lead the sould to rise above Ego, Mind and Chitta - corresponding to the three bodies physical (Sthoola), astral (Sookshma) and causal (Karana) resp. > > > > > > Rising above Ego is Jnana - Merging Physical body in Physical cosmos > > > Rising above Mind is Vairagya - Merging Astral body in Astral cosmos > > > Rising above Chitta is Yoga - Merging Causal body in Causal cosmos > > > > > > Finally, becoming established in Para-Brahman is YogaArudha. > > > > > > Your comments. > > > Regards, > > > Nitish > > > > > > , " Narasimha P.V.R. Rao " <pvr@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Namaste, > > > > > > > > Gyaani or jnaani is a wise and learned person, who may or may not debate (or even engage) with others. One may become a gyaani using either gyaana yoga or bhakti yoga or karma yoga or raaja yoga. > > > > > > > > Gyaana/jnaana yoga is a path of pursuing the Supreme through intellectual analysis. One pursuing that path may or may not debate with others and may or may not read many scriptures, but one will analyze and debate within oneself. One starts with the basic axioms (e.g. Self is imperishable and without a beginning or an end). One will go on eliminating things that one is aware of as not being Self. For example, body has a beginning and end and is perishable. So it is not Self. One introspects like this and, though the process of elimination, finally finds the true Self. That is gyaana yoga. Pure gyaana yoga is very difficult to follow in this age. > > > > > > > > Vichaara (contemplation) is the process of sadhana for an adherer of pure gyaana yoga. > > > > > > > > However, the gyaana (knowledge of Self) achieved by such a person at the end is not really different from the knowledge of Self achieved by a person following another path. > > > > > > > > Best regards, > > > > Narasimha Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 3, 2009 Report Share Posted October 3, 2009 || OM TAT SAT || Dear Narasimha and Sundeep, Thanks for your feedback. I thought, I had written a quite clear and explicit mail, but your reply has proved that it needs to be put down in at least 10-fold simpler words. You read my mail, but picked up notions in an incorrect, incoherent manner, and are reading beyond what is written in my mail. To prove my point, I would ask Sundeep to read my previous mail on " Gyan Marg " followed by your reply and see if he also picks up the notions in the same manner as you did ? The only addition required is an example: Your hypothesis Ahamkara is the only I-ness there is for all the beings in all the 3 cosmoses i.e. all the Physical, Astral and Causal-bodied beings. Proof by Contradiction A person who lives as a farmer, should, after death, remain a farmer in the astral cosmos, and after subsequent astral death, should be reborn as the same farmer with the same name and same identity as in his previous earthly incarnation. This is not the case, people don't even remember what they were in previous birth, and start their life afresh in a new earthly body => Contradiction => the original hypothesis is wrong => Ahamkara is not the only sense of I-ness applicable to all beings in all the 3 cosmoses. Inference #1: => Ahamkara is dominant sense of I-ness in Physical Cosmos. => Manas is dominant sense of I-ness in Astral Cosmos. => Chitta is dominant sense of I-ness in Causal Cosmos. Corollary #1: A Devata as an Astral-being has I-ness due to his Manas, and doesn't have Ahamkara for the work done by him in all the various physical bodies. Inference #1 and Corollary #1 is what I had written in my previous mail on this topic. There are many other ways to prove the contradiction on this hypothesis (e.g. Powers of beings in physical cosmos < those in astral cosmos < those in causal cosmos). Your made two additional points that are also invalid. My comments on that is: 1. I-ness derived from Ahamkara,Manas and Chitta has no innate power to Control any other idea of the 35 Causal-ideas. Reason: Soul is the only Truth and controller, everything else has an unreal and derived existence. Thus, all the 35 ideas co-ordinate with each other, and not control each other. 2. A new-born child or a person in Hypnotic-Trance, is able to use his sense-consciousness coherently due to the astral-bodys' sense of I-ness derived from Manas, that coordinates the senses. He has no Buddhi or discriminating faculty to interact with manas (sensory-motor mind) and tell it what to do - as you have proposed. Thus, Manas co-ordinates the senses due to its own sense of I-ness, not due to Buddhi. I hope this clarifies. Regards, Nitish , Narasimha PVR Rao <pvr wrote: > > Namaste, > > Out of the 19 or 35 attributes of individualized consciousness, which one gives the idea " I am this " or " I am that " ? Of course, it is ahamkaraka or I-ness or egosense or ego principle! > > Is one's idea of " I am this " limited to a physical body? Of course not! If someone says " so and so person is a terrible person " , one may feel offended or if someone says " so and so person is a great person " , one may feel elated. One's ahamkara or I-ness is identifying with the criticism or praise, even though nothing is being done to the physical body and only a name is being used. When somebody calls one by name from distance (as opposed to patting on the physical body and calling), one's consciousness may still think " I am being called " and one may turn towards the caller. As in these examples, one's I-ness does of course bind itself to more than a body. > > Suppose one gets a dream while sleeping. One may have forgotten totally about the physical body in the dream! One may think of something else as " I " . In dreams, one may see oneself as a different body or may not even " see " onself, but still one may have the sense that so and so thing is happening to " me " . So, even when the mind is drawn away from the physical body, there is still a notion of " I am this " (I-ness) in a dream. That is ahamkara or I-ness or ego principle. > > Your idea that ahamkara is limited to physical body is absolutely unacceptable. Ahamkara or I-ness extends beyond the physical body. > > Also, your idea that deities like Agni do not have ahamkara (I-ness) because they do not have physical bodies is incorrect. Of course, Agni does have an I-ness and thinks " I am Agni and this is what I do " . If he did not have that I-ness, he would not do everything he does. > > Moreover, the 19 or 35 ideas of individualized consciousness do interact with each other, whether we use the word " control " for some of those interactions or not. For example, buddhi (intellectual/discriminating mind) judges various past experiences, interacts with manas (sensory-motor mind) and tells it what to do. Then manas interacts with karmendriyas (organs of action) and makes them do various things. My buddhi determined what to write and my manas told my hands to type this and I ended up typing. > > Your point about " what exists as a part cannot be the whole " is totally out of place. The sense of I-ness, the memories and conditioning, the logical mind, the sensory-motor mind, karmendriyas etc are all different parts of individualized consciousness and they play different roles while interacting with each other in different ways. Some of those interactions may be deemed to be controls. > > > Am not mixing up the terminologies, though my mail didn't > > go in details. Your understanding is flawed. > > > > 2. Where did you read this up ? > > One does not " read up " these things in a single place. There are different abstractions and breakdowns of what happens in individualized consciousness. There are several sources that speak of different aspects of this knowledge in slightly different terms. One will assimilate this knowledge better if one reads as many sources as possible and contemplates. > > Best regards, > Narasimha > > Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAstrologer.org/homam > Do Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAstrologer.org/tarpana > Spirituality: > Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro.home.comcast.net > Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAstrologer.org > Jyotish writings: JyotishWritings > Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagannath.org > > > ---- yeeahoo_99 <nitish.arya wrote: > > || OM TAT SAT || > > Dear Narasimha, > > Please Ignore my previous-mail, it was not completed - i will try to delete it. > > > > Am not mixing up the terminologies, though my mail didn't go in details. Your understanding is flawed. > > > > 1. All ideas including the idea of Ahamkara naturally belong to the ideational or causal body, but Ahamkara must be overcome only in the physical body (See point 5.). Astral or Causal-bodied beings (those without a physical/astral body) don't have to fight with the idea of Ahamkara like we do. > > > > > Ahamkaara/ego controls manas and buddhi also. When manas (sensory- > > > ...they are all guided by the sense of I-ness. That sense of I-ness > > > permeates through all layers of one's individualized consciousness. > > > > 2. Where did you read this up ? > > > > There is a fine line between the sense of I-ness attributed to the Individual Soul and the sense of I-ness derived through the idea of Ahamkara. Even after a Soul is freed of the three bodies, the individuality of the Soul Atom is not destroyed (Resurrection implies that), while it has already given up the idea of Ahamkara including all other ideas. > > > > Individuality of a causal-bodied being is not due to the idea of Ahamkara because " What exists as a part cannot be the whole " . Thus, the idea of Ahamkara, being one of the 35 ideas of the Causal-body, doesn't account for neither controls the rest of the 34 ideas. Each idea is independent of another, without requiring another idea to act upon it - otherwise your buddhi would always interfere with the functioning of Mind or Ahamkara or the 5 functions of life-forces and so on. > > > > Essentially, the 35 ideas of causal body are the basic causal forces and are not related as cause-effect to each other. Thus, each is independent of the application of the sense of I-ness derived from Ahamkara. Manas and Buddhi being two of the Causal-ideas, their functioning as well as existence is not " controlled " nor " derived " in any way by the idea of Ahamkara. It is very clear when we see those with sharpest Buddhi or Sharpest Mind still carrying Heaviest Ahamkara, because they didn't work upon that particular idea. > > > > > > > But ego/ahamkaara/I-ness is the very basis of the entire > > > individualized consciousness. > > > > 3. Well, as most Physical-bodied beings cannot see through the Astral/causal cosmoses, it doesn't apply in the same way to the finer Astral and Causal-bodied beings who can always pierce the veil of Maya and see the human activities. Thus, what is " the very basis " of the entire individualized consciousness for a physical-bodied (unenlightened) being is not the same as for an astral/causal bodied being. > > An Astral-bodied being thinks of Manas/sense-consciousness as the very basis of the entire individualized consciousness. > > A Causal-bodied being thinks of Chitta/perceptive-consciousness as the very basis of the entire individualized consciousness. > > However, that individuality is of the Soul not derived from any idea, which is why it is not lost when the Astral being loses astral consciousness and reincarnates in the Physical body. > > > > As an example, Devatas, with their finer bodies, are able to work through all the beings in all their physical-bodies simultaneously (like Ganesh resides in the Mooladhara, Agni digests the food, and so on..), never getting controlled by Ahamkara that would require them to say that this particular body is " my body " or that one is mine - unless they incarnate in Physical bodies themselves. Devatas are, however, Astral/Causal-bodied beings, so they would attempt to influence the Manas (Spirit-Possession) of the sense-bound worshipper. Pretas on the other hand, would attempt to possess ones' physical body as well as act out their Ahamkara. > > > > > > > Out of the four antahkaranas, chitta (remembering or conditioned > > > mind) and ahamkaara (ego or I-ness) are parts of the kaarana > > > sareera (causal body) and remain till the end. > > > > 4. As per the resurrected Soul of Sri Yukteswar in Autobiography of a Yogi - > > > > Causal body is a matrix of 35 ideas, that include 19 ideas comprising Astral body (Chitta, Manas, Buddhi, Ahamkara, 5 functions of knowledge, 5 functions of Action, 5 functions of life-force) and 16 ideas comprising Physical body (16 chemical elements). > > > > Now, as we all know that Physical body expires as a whole, not just one or two of the 16 elements comprising it go away at a time, Astral and Causal bodies are also cast off as a whole in the corresponding cosmic consciousness - instead of different constituent ideas slipping out of it at different times. Chitta being the staging idea for all other modifications, can be termed as the last to go, when the causal body is finally dropped - hence I wrote as rising above Chitta. > > > > Thus, the idea of Ahamkara is bound with Gross Physical vibrations, > > Manas with Subtle Astral vibrations and > > Chitta with infinitely Subtle Causal Vibrations. > > > > Buddhi being another variable, can be developed or undeveloped irrespective of the other 34. Even illiterate Moodha, through surrender to their Guru, attain freedom from Ahamkara and so on... > > > > BTW, Chitta is not the Conditioned Mind. Chitta does store the residual impressions of all the past incarnations. However, being constituted of Satwa Guna, it doesn't have any inherent ability to act upon (Rajas) those impressions, just like a container containing an inflammable liquid doesn't automatically burn it down. Sadhana is required for That. > > The Samskaras stored by Chitta, including those of Nidra, Smriti, Vikalpa, Viparyaya, Pramana, correspond to the Tamo Guna, while the Chitta itself is Satva Guna - hence the " Satvic - Tamas " represents the SuperEther tattwa (refer my previous mail). The all-perceiving Satvic Chitta doesn't get conditioned by the Tamo-guni Samskaras it stores. > > Once the Chitta calms down, cleared of all residual impressions, only Satva Guna remains, the intuition becomes coherent and the Soul reflects on itself as distinct from Satva Guna of Prakriti (Chitta), thus realizing its own nature as Brahman. > > > > 5. > > In Patanjali Yoga Sutras: > > drigadarshanaktyorekatmataivasmita -6 > > Egoism is the identification of the seer with the instrument of seeing. Patanjali has used Asmita instead of Ahamkara. > > Since astral-bodied beings can use any of the senses like eyes to see, hear, smell, taste and so on (refer Autobiography of a Yogi)... the sense of egoism does not take roots in the astral-body and hence doesn't create Astral Karma. Similarly, Causal bodied beings can use thought to sense everything. > > > > Hence, Egotism has to be rooted out while the consciousness is associated with the Physical Body sensory activities or has Physical Karma. > > > > 6. The idea of Manas, as the controller of sense-consciousness, must be overcome in Astral body, through Vairagya. Read autobiography of a Yogi (chapter 43) where Sri Yukteswar illustrates that only those beings who cannot be tempted to go back to the pleasing to the eye Astral cosmos are permitted to stay permanently in the Causal cosmos. Pleasing to the eye implies Sense-consciousness which is associated with Manas. > > > > In Patanjali Yoga Sutras also it is mentioned in the same manner : > > > > dristanushravika vishaya vitrishnasya vashikara samjnavairagyam -15- > > > > That effect which comes to these who have given up their thirst after objects, either seen or heard, and which wills to control the objects, is non-attachment. Vivekananda has commented that Vairagya is the only way to freedom. > > > > This is to be accomplished by transferring the consciousness to Astral-Body and working out the Astral Karma or otherwise as an astral-bodied being. > > > > 7. Patanjali Yoga Sutras: > > yogashchittavrittinirodhah -2- > > Thus, extinguishing all the movements of Chitta is called " Yoga " . > > > > This is to be accomplished by transferring the consciousness to Causal-Body and working out the Causal Karma or otherwise as a causal-bodied being. > > > > I hope this clarifies. > > > > Regards, > > Nitish > > > > , Narasimha PVR Rao <pvr@> wrote: > > > > > > Namaste Nitish, > > > > > > I am afraid you are mixing up terminologies. For example, ego or ahamkaara (sense of I-ness) is not limited to the physical body, but extends to subtle body and causal body as well. In fact, ego resides in the causal body and affects other bodies. Out of the four antahkaranas, chitta (remembering or conditioned mind) and ahamkaara (ego or I-ness) are parts of the kaarana sareera (causal body) and remain till the end. > > > > > > Ahamkaara/ego controls manas and buddhi also. When manas (sensory-motor mind) observes sensory inputs or buddhi (intellectual or thinking mind) analyzes current and past observations of mind or chitta (remembering or conditioned mind) stores various observations or retrieves previously stored observations, they are all guided by the sense of I-ness. That sense of I-ness permeates through all layers of one's individualized consciousness. > > > > > > Upanishads and various scriptures have broken down the individualized consciousness into various groups by functionality, like five koshas, three sareeras, five praanas, five jnaanendriyas, five karmendriyas, four antahkaranas, six/seven chakras etc. But ego/ahamkaara/I-ness is the very basis of the entire individualized consciousness. > > > > > > Though the word jnaana means different things to different people, a jnaana yogi pursues Self by the path of contemplation and discrimination. When a jnaana yogi reaches the final target, all bodies and koshas are merged in cosmos. > > > > > > Best regards, > > > Narasimha > > > > > > Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAstrologer.org/homam > > > Do Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAstrologer.org/tarpana > > > Spirituality: > > > Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro.home.comcast.net > > > Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAstrologer.org > > > Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagannath.org > > > > > > > > > ---- yeeahoo_99 <nitish.arya@> wrote: > > > > || OM TAT SAT || > > > > Dear Narasimha, > > > > In my opinion, there are three distinct phases that lead the sould to rise above Ego, Mind and Chitta - corresponding to the three bodies physical (Sthoola), astral (Sookshma) and causal (Karana) resp. > > > > > > > > Rising above Ego is Jnana - Merging Physical body in Physical cosmos > > > > Rising above Mind is Vairagya - Merging Astral body in Astral cosmos > > > > Rising above Chitta is Yoga - Merging Causal body in Causal cosmos > > > > > > > > Finally, becoming established in Para-Brahman is YogaArudha. > > > > > > > > Your comments. > > > > Regards, > > > > Nitish > > > > > > > > , " Narasimha P.V.R. Rao " <pvr@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Namaste, > > > > > > > > > > Gyaani or jnaani is a wise and learned person, who may or may not debate (or even engage) with others. One may become a gyaani using either gyaana yoga or bhakti yoga or karma yoga or raaja yoga. > > > > > > > > > > Gyaana/jnaana yoga is a path of pursuing the Supreme through intellectual analysis. One pursuing that path may or may not debate with others and may or may not read many scriptures, but one will analyze and debate within oneself. One starts with the basic axioms (e.g. Self is imperishable and without a beginning or an end). One will go on eliminating things that one is aware of as not being Self. For example, body has a beginning and end and is perishable. So it is not Self. One introspects like this and, though the process of elimination, finally finds the true Self. That is gyaana yoga. Pure gyaana yoga is very difficult to follow in this age. > > > > > > > > > > Vichaara (contemplation) is the process of sadhana for an adherer of pure gyaana yoga. > > > > > > > > > > However, the gyaana (knowledge of Self) achieved by such a person at the end is not really different from the knowledge of Self achieved by a person following another path. > > > > > > > > > > Best regards, > > > > > Narasimha > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 4, 2009 Report Share Posted October 4, 2009 Namaste Proof by ContradictionA person who lives as a farmer, should, after death, remain a farmer in the astral cosmos, and after subsequent astral death, should be reborn as the same farmer with the same name and same identity as in his previous earthly incarnation. Wrong example. A person after his death, depending on his tendencies in this life and level of spiritual evolution will retain some aspects of his personality, which means a person who loves music intensely will also in his next birth have an affinity for music. The conditions of the birth and inbetween period depends both on his inherent samaskaras as well the karmic repurcussion. It not, never, entirely once choice. It a mix and match between what one wants and what one deserves. IN all cases, to be able to retain the samskara Ahamakara is needed. Therefore, Ahamkara exists even in beyond the death for a normal human being. Therewfore, Ahamkara is present in the astral/casual plane as well. Corollary #1:A Devata as an Astral-being has I-ness due to his Manas, and doesn't have Ahamkara for the work done by him in all the various physical bodies. This example becomse invalid since the analysis of the first example itself in incorrect. -Regards Rajarshi The upsurge (of consciousness) is Bhairava - Shiva Sutra--- On Sun, 4/10/09, yeeahoo_99 <nitish.arya wrote: yeeahoo_99 <nitish.arya Re: Gyan Marga Date: Sunday, 4 October, 2009, 9:40 AM || OM TAT SAT ||Dear Narasimha and Sundeep,Thanks for your feedback. I thought, I had written a quite clear and explicit mail, but your reply has proved that it needs to be put down in at least 10-fold simpler words.You read my mail, but picked up notions in an incorrect, incoherent manner, and are reading beyond what is written in my mail.To prove my point, I would ask Sundeep to read my previous mail on "Gyan Marg" followed by your reply and see if he also picks up the notions in the same manner as you did ?The only addition required is an example:Your hypothesisAhamkara is the only I-ness there is for all the beings in all the 3 cosmoses i.e. all the Physical, Astral and Causal-bodied beings.Proof by ContradictionA person who lives as a farmer, should, after death, remain a farmer in the astral cosmos, and after subsequent astral death, should be reborn as the same farmer with the same name and same identity as in his previous earthly incarnation.This is not the case, people don't even remember what they were in previous birth, and start their life afresh in a new earthly body=> Contradiction => the original hypothesis is wrong => Ahamkara is not the only sense of I-ness applicable to all beings in all the 3 cosmoses.Inference #1:=> Ahamkara is dominant sense of I-ness in Physical Cosmos.=> Manas is dominant sense of I-ness in Astral Cosmos.=> Chitta is dominant sense of I-ness in Causal Cosmos.Corollary #1:A Devata as an Astral-being has I-ness due to his Manas, and doesn't have Ahamkara for the work done by him in all the various physical bodies.Inference #1 and Corollary #1 is what I had written in my previous mail on this topic.There are many other ways to prove the contradiction on this hypothesis (e.g. Powers of beings in physical cosmos < those in astral cosmos < those in causal cosmos).Your made two additional points that are also invalid. My comments on that is:1. I-ness derived from Ahamkara,Manas and Chitta has no innate power to Control any other idea of the 35 Causal-ideas.Reason:Soul is the only Truth and controller, everything else has an unreal and derived existence. Thus, all the 35 ideas co-ordinate with each other, and not control each other. 2. A new-born child or a person in Hypnotic-Trance, is able to use his sense-consciousness coherently due to the astral-bodys' sense of I-ness derived from Manas, that coordinates the senses.He has no Buddhi or discriminating faculty to interact with manas (sensory-motor mind) and tell it what to do - as you have proposed. Thus, Manas co-ordinates the senses due to its own sense of I-ness, not due to Buddhi.I hope this clarifies.Regards,Nitish, Narasimha PVR Rao <pvr wrote:>> Namaste,> > Out of the 19 or 35 attributes of individualized consciousness, which one gives the idea "I am this" or "I am that"? Of course, it is ahamkaraka or I-ness or egosense or ego principle!> > Is one's idea of "I am this" limited to a physical body? Of course not! If someone says "so and so person is a terrible person", one may feel offended or if someone says "so and so person is a great person", one may feel elated. One's ahamkara or I-ness is identifying with the criticism or praise, even though nothing is being done to the physical body and only a name is being used. When somebody calls one by name from distance (as opposed to patting on the physical body and calling), one's consciousness may still think "I am being called" and one may turn towards the caller. As in these examples, one's I-ness does of course bind itself to more than a body.> > Suppose one gets a dream while sleeping. One may have forgotten totally about the physical body in the dream! One may think of something else as "I". In dreams, one may see oneself as a different body or may not even "see" onself, but still one may have the sense that so and so thing is happening to "me". So, even when the mind is drawn away from the physical body, there is still a notion of "I am this" (I-ness) in a dream. That is ahamkara or I-ness or ego principle.> > Your idea that ahamkara is limited to physical body is absolutely unacceptable. Ahamkara or I-ness extends beyond the physical body.> > Also, your idea that deities like Agni do not have ahamkara (I-ness) because they do not have physical bodies is incorrect. Of course, Agni does have an I-ness and thinks "I am Agni and this is what I do". If he did not have that I-ness, he would not do everything he does.> > Moreover, the 19 or 35 ideas of individualized consciousness do interact with each other, whether we use the word "control" for some of those interactions or not. For example, buddhi (intellectual/ discriminating mind) judges various past experiences, interacts with manas (sensory-motor mind) and tells it what to do. Then manas interacts with karmendriyas (organs of action) and makes them do various things. My buddhi determined what to write and my manas told my hands to type this and I ended up typing.> > Your point about "what exists as a part cannot be the whole" is totally out of place. The sense of I-ness, the memories and conditioning, the logical mind, the sensory-motor mind, karmendriyas etc are all different parts of individualized consciousness and they play different roles while interacting with each other in different ways. Some of those interactions may be deemed to be controls.> > > Am not mixing up the terminologies, though my mail didn't> > go in details. Your understanding is flawed.> > > > 2. Where did you read this up ?> > One does not "read up" these things in a single place. There are different abstractions and breakdowns of what happens in individualized consciousness. There are several sources that speak of different aspects of this knowledge in slightly different terms. One will assimilate this knowledge better if one reads as many sources as possible and contemplates.> > Best regards,> Narasimha> ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -> Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ homam> Do Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ tarpana> Spirituality: http://groups. / group/vedic- wisdom> Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro. home.comcast. net> Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAst rologer.org> Jyotish writings: http://groups. / group/JyotishWri tings> Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagan nath.org> ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -> > ---- yeeahoo_99 <nitish.arya@ ...> wrote: > > || OM TAT SAT ||> > Dear Narasimha,> > Please Ignore my previous-mail, it was not completed - i will try to delete it.> > > > Am not mixing up the terminologies, though my mail didn't go in details. Your understanding is flawed.> > > > 1. All ideas including the idea of Ahamkara naturally belong to the ideational or causal body, but Ahamkara must be overcome only in the physical body (See point 5.). Astral or Causal-bodied beings (those without a physical/astral body) don't have to fight with the idea of Ahamkara like we do.> > > > > Ahamkaara/ego controls manas and buddhi also. When manas (sensory-> > > ...they are all guided by the sense of I-ness. That sense of I-ness > > > permeates through all layers of one's individualized consciousness.> > > > 2. Where did you read this up ?> > > > There is a fine line between the sense of I-ness attributed to the Individual Soul and the sense of I-ness derived through the idea of Ahamkara. Even after a Soul is freed of the three bodies, the individuality of the Soul Atom is not destroyed (Resurrection implies that), while it has already given up the idea of Ahamkara including all other ideas.> > > > Individuality of a causal-bodied being is not due to the idea of Ahamkara because "What exists as a part cannot be the whole". Thus, the idea of Ahamkara, being one of the 35 ideas of the Causal-body, doesn't account for neither controls the rest of the 34 ideas. Each idea is independent of another, without requiring another idea to act upon it - otherwise your buddhi would always interfere with the functioning of Mind or Ahamkara or the 5 functions of life-forces and so on.> > > > Essentially, the 35 ideas of causal body are the basic causal forces and are not related as cause-effect to each other. Thus, each is independent of the application of the sense of I-ness derived from Ahamkara. Manas and Buddhi being two of the Causal-ideas, their functioning as well as existence is not "controlled" nor "derived" in any way by the idea of Ahamkara. It is very clear when we see those with sharpest Buddhi or Sharpest Mind still carrying Heaviest Ahamkara, because they didn't work upon that particular idea.> > > > > > > But ego/ahamkaara/ I-ness is the very basis of the entire > > > individualized consciousness.> > > > 3. Well, as most Physical-bodied beings cannot see through the Astral/causal cosmoses, it doesn't apply in the same way to the finer Astral and Causal-bodied beings who can always pierce the veil of Maya and see the human activities. Thus, what is "the very basis" of the entire individualized consciousness for a physical-bodied (unenlightened) being is not the same as for an astral/causal bodied being.> > An Astral-bodied being thinks of Manas/sense- consciousness as the very basis of the entire individualized consciousness.> > A Causal-bodied being thinks of Chitta/perceptive- consciousness as the very basis of the entire individualized consciousness.> > However, that individuality is of the Soul not derived from any idea, which is why it is not lost when the Astral being loses astral consciousness and reincarnates in the Physical body.> > > > As an example, Devatas, with their finer bodies, are able to work through all the beings in all their physical-bodies simultaneously (like Ganesh resides in the Mooladhara, Agni digests the food, and so on..), never getting controlled by Ahamkara that would require them to say that this particular body is "my body" or that one is mine - unless they incarnate in Physical bodies themselves. Devatas are, however, Astral/Causal- bodied beings, so they would attempt to influence the Manas (Spirit-Possession) of the sense-bound worshipper. Pretas on the other hand, would attempt to possess ones' physical body as well as act out their Ahamkara.> > > > > > > Out of the four antahkaranas, chitta (remembering or conditioned > > > mind) and ahamkaara (ego or I-ness) are parts of the kaarana > > > sareera (causal body) and remain till the end.> > > > 4. As per the resurrected Soul of Sri Yukteswar in Autobiography of a Yogi -> > > > Causal body is a matrix of 35 ideas, that include 19 ideas comprising Astral body (Chitta, Manas, Buddhi, Ahamkara, 5 functions of knowledge, 5 functions of Action, 5 functions of life-force) and 16 ideas comprising Physical body (16 chemical elements).> > > > Now, as we all know that Physical body expires as a whole, not just one or two of the 16 elements comprising it go away at a time, Astral and Causal bodies are also cast off as a whole in the corresponding cosmic consciousness - instead of different constituent ideas slipping out of it at different times. Chitta being the staging idea for all other modifications, can be termed as the last to go, when the causal body is finally dropped - hence I wrote as rising above Chitta.> > > > Thus, the idea of Ahamkara is bound with Gross Physical vibrations, > > Manas with Subtle Astral vibrations and > > Chitta with infinitely Subtle Causal Vibrations.> > > > Buddhi being another variable, can be developed or undeveloped irrespective of the other 34. Even illiterate Moodha, through surrender to their Guru, attain freedom from Ahamkara and so on...> > > > BTW, Chitta is not the Conditioned Mind. Chitta does store the residual impressions of all the past incarnations. However, being constituted of Satwa Guna, it doesn't have any inherent ability to act upon (Rajas) those impressions, just like a container containing an inflammable liquid doesn't automatically burn it down. Sadhana is required for That.> > The Samskaras stored by Chitta, including those of Nidra, Smriti, Vikalpa, Viparyaya, Pramana, correspond to the Tamo Guna, while the Chitta itself is Satva Guna - hence the "Satvic - Tamas" represents the SuperEther tattwa (refer my previous mail). The all-perceiving Satvic Chitta doesn't get conditioned by the Tamo-guni Samskaras it stores.> > Once the Chitta calms down, cleared of all residual impressions, only Satva Guna remains, the intuition becomes coherent and the Soul reflects on itself as distinct from Satva Guna of Prakriti (Chitta), thus realizing its own nature as Brahman.> > > > 5. > > In Patanjali Yoga Sutras: > > drigadarshanaktyore katmataivasmita -6> > Egoism is the identification of the seer with the instrument of seeing. Patanjali has used Asmita instead of Ahamkara.> > Since astral-bodied beings can use any of the senses like eyes to see, hear, smell, taste and so on (refer Autobiography of a Yogi)... the sense of egoism does not take roots in the astral-body and hence doesn't create Astral Karma. Similarly, Causal bodied beings can use thought to sense everything.> > > > Hence, Egotism has to be rooted out while the consciousness is associated with the Physical Body sensory activities or has Physical Karma.> > > > 6. The idea of Manas, as the controller of sense-consciousness , must be overcome in Astral body, through Vairagya. Read autobiography of a Yogi (chapter 43) where Sri Yukteswar illustrates that only those beings who cannot be tempted to go back to the pleasing to the eye Astral cosmos are permitted to stay permanently in the Causal cosmos. Pleasing to the eye implies Sense-consciousness which is associated with Manas.> > > > In Patanjali Yoga Sutras also it is mentioned in the same manner :> > > > dristanushravika vishaya vitrishnasya vashikara samjnavairagyam -15-> > > > That effect which comes to these who have given up their thirst after objects, either seen or heard, and which wills to control the objects, is non-attachment. Vivekananda has commented that Vairagya is the only way to freedom.> > > > This is to be accomplished by transferring the consciousness to Astral-Body and working out the Astral Karma or otherwise as an astral-bodied being.> > > > 7. Patanjali Yoga Sutras:> > yogashchittavrittin irodhah -2-> > Thus, extinguishing all the movements of Chitta is called "Yoga". > > > > This is to be accomplished by transferring the consciousness to Causal-Body and working out the Causal Karma or otherwise as a causal-bodied being.> > > > I hope this clarifies.> > > > Regards,> > Nitish> > > > , Narasimha PVR Rao <pvr@> wrote:> > >> > > Namaste Nitish,> > > > > > I am afraid you are mixing up terminologies. For example, ego or ahamkaara (sense of I-ness) is not limited to the physical body, but extends to subtle body and causal body as well. In fact, ego resides in the causal body and affects other bodies. Out of the four antahkaranas, chitta (remembering or conditioned mind) and ahamkaara (ego or I-ness) are parts of the kaarana sareera (causal body) and remain till the end.> > > > > > Ahamkaara/ego controls manas and buddhi also. When manas (sensory-motor mind) observes sensory inputs or buddhi (intellectual or thinking mind) analyzes current and past observations of mind or chitta (remembering or conditioned mind) stores various observations or retrieves previously stored observations, they are all guided by the sense of I-ness. That sense of I-ness permeates through all layers of one's individualized consciousness.> > > > > > Upanishads and various scriptures have broken down the individualized consciousness into various groups by functionality, like five koshas, three sareeras, five praanas, five jnaanendriyas, five karmendriyas, four antahkaranas, six/seven chakras etc. But ego/ahamkaara/ I-ness is the very basis of the entire individualized consciousness.> > > > > > Though the word jnaana means different things to different people, a jnaana yogi pursues Self by the path of contemplation and discrimination. When a jnaana yogi reaches the final target, all bodies and koshas are merged in cosmos.> > > > > > Best regards,> > > Narasimha> > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -> > > Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ homam> > > Do Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ tarpana> > > Spirituality: http://groups. / group/vedic- wisdom> > > Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro. home.comcast. net> > > Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAst rologer.org> > > Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagan nath.org> > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -> > > > > > ---- yeeahoo_99 <nitish.arya@ > wrote: > > > > || OM TAT SAT ||> > > > Dear Narasimha,> > > > In my opinion, there are three distinct phases that lead the sould to rise above Ego, Mind and Chitta - corresponding to the three bodies physical (Sthoola), astral (Sookshma) and causal (Karana) resp.> > > > > > > > Rising above Ego is Jnana - Merging Physical body in Physical cosmos> > > > Rising above Mind is Vairagya - Merging Astral body in Astral cosmos> > > > Rising above Chitta is Yoga - Merging Causal body in Causal cosmos> > > > > > > > Finally, becoming established in Para-Brahman is YogaArudha.> > > > > > > > Your comments.> > > > Regards,> > > > Nitish> > > > > > > > , "Narasimha P.V.R. Rao" <pvr@> wrote:> > > > >> > > > > Namaste,> > > > > > > > > > Gyaani or jnaani is a wise and learned person, who may or may not debate (or even engage) with others. One may become a gyaani using either gyaana yoga or bhakti yoga or karma yoga or raaja yoga.> > > > > > > > > > Gyaana/jnaana yoga is a path of pursuing the Supreme through intellectual analysis. One pursuing that path may or may not debate with others and may or may not read many scriptures, but one will analyze and debate within oneself. One starts with the basic axioms (e.g. Self is imperishable and without a beginning or an end). One will go on eliminating things that one is aware of as not being Self. For example, body has a beginning and end and is perishable. So it is not Self. One introspects like this and, though the process of elimination, finally finds the true Self. That is gyaana yoga. Pure gyaana yoga is very difficult to follow in this age.> > > > > > > > > > Vichaara (contemplation) is the process of sadhana for an adherer of pure gyaana yoga.> > > > > > > > > > However, the gyaana (knowledge of Self) achieved by such a person at the end is not really different from the knowledge of Self achieved by a person following another path.> > > > > > > > > > Best regards,> > > > > Narasimha> Keep up with people you care about with India Mail. Learn how. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 4, 2009 Report Share Posted October 4, 2009 || OM TAT SAT || Namaskar Rajarshi, Thanks for your contribution - all you have done is to prove what is already known. > Therefore, Ahamkara exists even in beyond the death for a normal > human being. Therewfore, Ahamkara is present in the astral/casual > plane as well. 1. Do you realize what is being talked about and what you have ended up proving ? Wherein did I deny that Ahamkara is not present in Astral/Causal bodies ? Ahamkara is an idea in Causal-body, so it is present all the time till the soul is freed of the three body containers. 2. OTOH, What I have stated, with reference to Patanjali Sutras, is that Ahamkara is " SUPPRESSED " in Astral and Causal bodies. Meaning " Ahamkara isn't the dominant cause of I-ness in Astral/Causal bodies " And as a result wouldn't contribute to the acquisition of Astral/Causal Karma. Why is Ahamkara not dominant in Astral/Causal bodies ? The reason I have already given in the first mail in sufficient detail. IF THE AHAMKARA IS NOT SUPPRESSED AFTER PHYSICAL DEATH, THE PERSON WILL KEEP CARRYING THE SAME EARTHLY IDENTITY TO THE ASTRAL PLANES, AND BRING IT BACK AT REBIRTH TO THE EARTH. AND THEN, HE WILL RECLAIM HIS LOST TERRITORY AND WEALTH - THE CONFLICTS THAT WILL ARISE WILL BE BEYOND ANYBODY'S CONTROL. THUS, THE BEAUTIFUL ASTRAL SPHERE ARE SENSED BY THE I-NESS OF MANAS, while CAUSAL SPHERE ARE SENSED BY THE I-NESS OF CHITTA. Please read more of " Sri Sri Paramahansa Yogananda " , he has mentioned about all these things (what happens to a soul at death and so on) in such a simplistic manner in his Gita commentaries, that even a layman can understand it. Regards, Nitish , rajarshi nandy <rajarshi14 wrote: > > Namaste > > Proof by Contradiction > A person who lives as a farmer, should, after death, remain a farmer in the astral cosmos, and after subsequent astral death, should be reborn as the same farmer with the same name and same identity as in his previous earthly incarnation. > > Wrong example. > > A person after his death, depending on his tendencies in this life and level of spiritual evolution will retain some aspects of his personality, which means a person who loves music intensely will also in his next birth have an affinity for music. The conditions of the birth and inbetween period depends both on his inherent samaskaras as well the karmic repurcussion. It not, never, entirely once choice. It a mix and match between what one wants and what one deserves. IN all cases, to be able to retain the samskara Ahamakara is needed. Therefore, Ahamkara exists even in beyond the death for a normal human being. Therewfore, Ahamkara is present in the astral/casual plane as well. > > > Corollary #1: > A Devata as an Astral-being has I-ness due to his Manas, and doesn't have Ahamkara for the work done by him in all the various physical bodies. > > > This example becomse invalid since the analysis of the first example itself in incorrect. > > -Regards > Rajarshi > > > > The upsurge (of consciousness) is Bhairava - Shiva Sutra > > --- On Sun, 4/10/09, yeeahoo_99 <nitish.arya wrote: > > > yeeahoo_99 <nitish.arya > Re: Gyan Marga > > Sunday, 4 October, 2009, 9:40 AM > > > > > > > || OM TAT SAT || > Dear Narasimha and Sundeep, > > Thanks for your feedback. I thought, I had written a quite clear and explicit mail, but your reply has proved that it needs to be put down in at least 10-fold simpler words. > > You read my mail, but picked up notions in an incorrect, incoherent manner, and are reading beyond what is written in my mail. > > To prove my point, I would ask Sundeep to read my previous mail on " Gyan Marg " followed by your reply and see if he also picks up the notions in the same manner as you did ? > > The only addition required is an example: > > Your hypothesis > Ahamkara is the only I-ness there is for all the beings in all the 3 cosmoses i.e. all the Physical, Astral and Causal-bodied beings. > > Proof by Contradiction > A person who lives as a farmer, should, after death, remain a farmer in the astral cosmos, and after subsequent astral death, should be reborn as the same farmer with the same name and same identity as in his previous earthly incarnation. > This is not the case, people don't even remember what they were in previous birth, and start their life afresh in a new earthly body > => Contradiction > => the original hypothesis is wrong > => Ahamkara is not the only sense of I-ness applicable to all beings in all the 3 cosmoses. > > Inference #1: > => Ahamkara is dominant sense of I-ness in Physical Cosmos. > => Manas is dominant sense of I-ness in Astral Cosmos. > => Chitta is dominant sense of I-ness in Causal Cosmos. > > Corollary #1: > A Devata as an Astral-being has I-ness due to his Manas, and doesn't have Ahamkara for the work done by him in all the various physical bodies. > > Inference #1 and Corollary #1 is what I had written in my previous mail on this topic. > > There are many other ways to prove the contradiction on this hypothesis (e.g. Powers of beings in physical cosmos < those in astral cosmos < those in causal cosmos). > > Your made two additional points that are also invalid. My comments on that is: > > 1. I-ness derived from Ahamkara,Manas and Chitta has no innate power to Control any other idea of the 35 Causal-ideas. > Reason: > Soul is the only Truth and controller, everything else has an unreal and derived existence. Thus, all the 35 ideas co-ordinate with each other, and not control each other. > > 2. A new-born child or a person in Hypnotic-Trance, is able to use his sense-consciousness coherently due to the astral-bodys' sense of I-ness derived from Manas, that coordinates the senses. > He has no Buddhi or discriminating faculty to interact with manas (sensory-motor mind) and tell it what to do - as you have proposed. Thus, Manas co-ordinates the senses due to its own sense of I-ness, not due to Buddhi. > > I hope this clarifies. > > Regards, > Nitish > > , Narasimha PVR Rao <pvr@> wrote: > > > > Namaste, > > > > Out of the 19 or 35 attributes of individualized consciousness, which one gives the idea " I am this " or " I am that " ? Of course, it is ahamkaraka or I-ness or egosense or ego principle! > > > > Is one's idea of " I am this " limited to a physical body? Of course not! If someone says " so and so person is a terrible person " , one may feel offended or if someone says " so and so person is a great person " , one may feel elated. One's ahamkara or I-ness is identifying with the criticism or praise, even though nothing is being done to the physical body and only a name is being used. When somebody calls one by name from distance (as opposed to patting on the physical body and calling), one's consciousness may still think " I am being called " and one may turn towards the caller. As in these examples, one's I-ness does of course bind itself to more than a body. > > > > Suppose one gets a dream while sleeping. One may have forgotten totally about the physical body in the dream! One may think of something else as " I " . In dreams, one may see oneself as a different body or may not even " see " onself, but still one may have the sense that so and so thing is happening to " me " . So, even when the mind is drawn away from the physical body, there is still a notion of " I am this " (I-ness) in a dream. That is ahamkara or I-ness or ego principle. > > > > Your idea that ahamkara is limited to physical body is absolutely unacceptable. Ahamkara or I-ness extends beyond the physical body. > > > > Also, your idea that deities like Agni do not have ahamkara (I-ness) because they do not have physical bodies is incorrect. Of course, Agni does have an I-ness and thinks " I am Agni and this is what I do " . If he did not have that I-ness, he would not do everything he does. > > > > Moreover, the 19 or 35 ideas of individualized consciousness do interact with each other, whether we use the word " control " for some of those interactions or not. For example, buddhi (intellectual/ discriminating mind) judges various past experiences, interacts with manas (sensory-motor mind) and tells it what to do. Then manas interacts with karmendriyas (organs of action) and makes them do various things. My buddhi determined what to write and my manas told my hands to type this and I ended up typing. > > > > Your point about " what exists as a part cannot be the whole " is totally out of place. The sense of I-ness, the memories and conditioning, the logical mind, the sensory-motor mind, karmendriyas etc are all different parts of individualized consciousness and they play different roles while interacting with each other in different ways. Some of those interactions may be deemed to be controls. > > > > > Am not mixing up the terminologies, though my mail didn't > > > go in details. Your understanding is flawed. > > > > > > 2. Where did you read this up ? > > > > One does not " read up " these things in a single place. There are different abstractions and breakdowns of what happens in individualized consciousness. There are several sources that speak of different aspects of this knowledge in slightly different terms. One will assimilate this knowledge better if one reads as many sources as possible and contemplates. > > > > Best regards, > > Narasimha > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- - > > Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ homam > > Do Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ tarpana > > Spirituality: http://groups. / group/vedic- wisdom > > Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro. home.comcast. net > > Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAst rologer.org > > Jyotish writings: http://groups. / group/JyotishWri tings > > Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagan nath.org > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- - > > > > ---- yeeahoo_99 <nitish.arya@ ...> wrote: > > > || OM TAT SAT || > > > Dear Narasimha, > > > Please Ignore my previous-mail, it was not completed - i will try to delete it. > > > > > > Am not mixing up the terminologies, though my mail didn't go in details. Your understanding is flawed. > > > > > > 1. All ideas including the idea of Ahamkara naturally belong to the ideational or causal body, but Ahamkara must be overcome only in the physical body (See point 5.). Astral or Causal-bodied beings (those without a physical/astral body) don't have to fight with the idea of Ahamkara like we do. > > > > > > > Ahamkaara/ego controls manas and buddhi also. When manas (sensory- > > > > ...they are all guided by the sense of I-ness. That sense of I-ness > > > > permeates through all layers of one's individualized consciousness. > > > > > > 2. Where did you read this up ? > > > > > > There is a fine line between the sense of I-ness attributed to the Individual Soul and the sense of I-ness derived through the idea of Ahamkara. Even after a Soul is freed of the three bodies, the individuality of the Soul Atom is not destroyed (Resurrection implies that), while it has already given up the idea of Ahamkara including all other ideas. > > > > > > Individuality of a causal-bodied being is not due to the idea of Ahamkara because " What exists as a part cannot be the whole " . Thus, the idea of Ahamkara, being one of the 35 ideas of the Causal-body, doesn't account for neither controls the rest of the 34 ideas. Each idea is independent of another, without requiring another idea to act upon it - otherwise your buddhi would always interfere with the functioning of Mind or Ahamkara or the 5 functions of life-forces and so on. > > > > > > Essentially, the 35 ideas of causal body are the basic causal forces and are not related as cause-effect to each other. Thus, each is independent of the application of the sense of I-ness derived from Ahamkara. Manas and Buddhi being two of the Causal-ideas, their functioning as well as existence is not " controlled " nor " derived " in any way by the idea of Ahamkara. It is very clear when we see those with sharpest Buddhi or Sharpest Mind still carrying Heaviest Ahamkara, because they didn't work upon that particular idea. > > > > > > > > > > But ego/ahamkaara/ I-ness is the very basis of the entire > > > > individualized consciousness. > > > > > > 3. Well, as most Physical-bodied beings cannot see through the Astral/causal cosmoses, it doesn't apply in the same way to the finer Astral and Causal-bodied beings who can always pierce the veil of Maya and see the human activities. Thus, what is " the very basis " of the entire individualized consciousness for a physical-bodied (unenlightened) being is not the same as for an astral/causal bodied being. > > > An Astral-bodied being thinks of Manas/sense- consciousness as the very basis of the entire individualized consciousness. > > > A Causal-bodied being thinks of Chitta/perceptive- consciousness as the very basis of the entire individualized consciousness. > > > However, that individuality is of the Soul not derived from any idea, which is why it is not lost when the Astral being loses astral consciousness and reincarnates in the Physical body. > > > > > > As an example, Devatas, with their finer bodies, are able to work through all the beings in all their physical-bodies simultaneously (like Ganesh resides in the Mooladhara, Agni digests the food, and so on..), never getting controlled by Ahamkara that would require them to say that this particular body is " my body " or that one is mine - unless they incarnate in Physical bodies themselves. Devatas are, however, Astral/Causal- bodied beings, so they would attempt to influence the Manas (Spirit-Possession) of the sense-bound worshipper. Pretas on the other hand, would attempt to possess ones' physical body as well as act out their Ahamkara. > > > > > > > > > > Out of the four antahkaranas, chitta (remembering or conditioned > > > > mind) and ahamkaara (ego or I-ness) are parts of the kaarana > > > > sareera (causal body) and remain till the end. > > > > > > 4. As per the resurrected Soul of Sri Yukteswar in Autobiography of a Yogi - > > > > > > Causal body is a matrix of 35 ideas, that include 19 ideas comprising Astral body (Chitta, Manas, Buddhi, Ahamkara, 5 functions of knowledge, 5 functions of Action, 5 functions of life-force) and 16 ideas comprising Physical body (16 chemical elements). > > > > > > Now, as we all know that Physical body expires as a whole, not just one or two of the 16 elements comprising it go away at a time, Astral and Causal bodies are also cast off as a whole in the corresponding cosmic consciousness - instead of different constituent ideas slipping out of it at different times. Chitta being the staging idea for all other modifications, can be termed as the last to go, when the causal body is finally dropped - hence I wrote as rising above Chitta. > > > > > > Thus, the idea of Ahamkara is bound with Gross Physical vibrations, > > > Manas with Subtle Astral vibrations and > > > Chitta with infinitely Subtle Causal Vibrations. > > > > > > Buddhi being another variable, can be developed or undeveloped irrespective of the other 34. Even illiterate Moodha, through surrender to their Guru, attain freedom from Ahamkara and so on... > > > > > > BTW, Chitta is not the Conditioned Mind. Chitta does store the residual impressions of all the past incarnations. However, being constituted of Satwa Guna, it doesn't have any inherent ability to act upon (Rajas) those impressions, just like a container containing an inflammable liquid doesn't automatically burn it down. Sadhana is required for That. > > > The Samskaras stored by Chitta, including those of Nidra, Smriti, Vikalpa, Viparyaya, Pramana, correspond to the Tamo Guna, while the Chitta itself is Satva Guna - hence the " Satvic - Tamas " represents the SuperEther tattwa (refer my previous mail). The all-perceiving Satvic Chitta doesn't get conditioned by the Tamo-guni Samskaras it stores. > > > Once the Chitta calms down, cleared of all residual impressions, only Satva Guna remains, the intuition becomes coherent and the Soul reflects on itself as distinct from Satva Guna of Prakriti (Chitta), thus realizing its own nature as Brahman. > > > > > > 5. > > > In Patanjali Yoga Sutras: > > > drigadarshanaktyore katmataivasmita -6 > > > Egoism is the identification of the seer with the instrument of seeing. Patanjali has used Asmita instead of Ahamkara. > > > Since astral-bodied beings can use any of the senses like eyes to see, hear, smell, taste and so on (refer Autobiography of a Yogi)... the sense of egoism does not take roots in the astral-body and hence doesn't create Astral Karma. Similarly, Causal bodied beings can use thought to sense everything. > > > > > > Hence, Egotism has to be rooted out while the consciousness is associated with the Physical Body sensory activities or has Physical Karma. > > > > > > 6. The idea of Manas, as the controller of sense-consciousness , must be overcome in Astral body, through Vairagya. Read autobiography of a Yogi (chapter 43) where Sri Yukteswar illustrates that only those beings who cannot be tempted to go back to the pleasing to the eye Astral cosmos are permitted to stay permanently in the Causal cosmos. Pleasing to the eye implies Sense-consciousness which is associated with Manas. > > > > > > In Patanjali Yoga Sutras also it is mentioned in the same manner : > > > > > > dristanushravika vishaya vitrishnasya vashikara samjnavairagyam -15- > > > > > > That effect which comes to these who have given up their thirst after objects, either seen or heard, and which wills to control the objects, is non-attachment. Vivekananda has commented that Vairagya is the only way to freedom. > > > > > > This is to be accomplished by transferring the consciousness to Astral-Body and working out the Astral Karma or otherwise as an astral-bodied being. > > > > > > 7. Patanjali Yoga Sutras: > > > yogashchittavrittin irodhah -2- > > > Thus, extinguishing all the movements of Chitta is called " Yoga " . > > > > > > This is to be accomplished by transferring the consciousness to Causal-Body and working out the Causal Karma or otherwise as a causal-bodied being. > > > > > > I hope this clarifies. > > > > > > Regards, > > > Nitish > > > > > > , Narasimha PVR Rao <pvr@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Namaste Nitish, > > > > > > > > I am afraid you are mixing up terminologies. For example, ego or ahamkaara (sense of I-ness) is not limited to the physical body, but extends to subtle body and causal body as well. In fact, ego resides in the causal body and affects other bodies. Out of the four antahkaranas, chitta (remembering or conditioned mind) and ahamkaara (ego or I-ness) are parts of the kaarana sareera (causal body) and remain till the end. > > > > > > > > Ahamkaara/ego controls manas and buddhi also. When manas (sensory-motor mind) observes sensory inputs or buddhi (intellectual or thinking mind) analyzes current and past observations of mind or chitta (remembering or conditioned mind) stores various observations or retrieves previously stored observations, they are all guided by the sense of I-ness. That sense of I-ness permeates through all layers of one's individualized consciousness. > > > > > > > > Upanishads and various scriptures have broken down the individualized consciousness into various groups by functionality, like five koshas, three sareeras, five praanas, five jnaanendriyas, five karmendriyas, four antahkaranas, six/seven chakras etc. But ego/ahamkaara/ I-ness is the very basis of the entire individualized consciousness. > > > > > > > > Though the word jnaana means different things to different people, a jnaana yogi pursues Self by the path of contemplation and discrimination. When a jnaana yogi reaches the final target, all bodies and koshas are merged in cosmos. > > > > > > > > Best regards, > > > > Narasimha > > > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- - > > > > Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ homam > > > > Do Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ tarpana > > > > Spirituality: http://groups. / group/vedic- wisdom > > > > Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro. home.comcast. net > > > > Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAst rologer.org > > > > Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagan nath.org > > > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- - > > > > > > > > ---- yeeahoo_99 <nitish.arya@ > wrote: > > > > > || OM TAT SAT || > > > > > Dear Narasimha, > > > > > In my opinion, there are three distinct phases that lead the sould to rise above Ego, Mind and Chitta - corresponding to the three bodies physical (Sthoola), astral (Sookshma) and causal (Karana) resp. > > > > > > > > > > Rising above Ego is Jnana - Merging Physical body in Physical cosmos > > > > > Rising above Mind is Vairagya - Merging Astral body in Astral cosmos > > > > > Rising above Chitta is Yoga - Merging Causal body in Causal cosmos > > > > > > > > > > Finally, becoming established in Para-Brahman is YogaArudha. > > > > > > > > > > Your comments. > > > > > Regards, > > > > > Nitish > > > > > > > > > > , " Narasimha P.V.R. Rao " <pvr@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Namaste, > > > > > > > > > > > > Gyaani or jnaani is a wise and learned person, who may or may not debate (or even engage) with others. One may become a gyaani using either gyaana yoga or bhakti yoga or karma yoga or raaja yoga. > > > > > > > > > > > > Gyaana/jnaana yoga is a path of pursuing the Supreme through intellectual analysis. One pursuing that path may or may not debate with others and may or may not read many scriptures, but one will analyze and debate within oneself. One starts with the basic axioms (e.g. Self is imperishable and without a beginning or an end). One will go on eliminating things that one is aware of as not being Self. For example, body has a beginning and end and is perishable. So it is not Self. One introspects like this and, though the process of elimination, finally finds the true Self. That is gyaana yoga. Pure gyaana yoga is very difficult to follow in this age. > > > > > > > > > > > > Vichaara (contemplation) is the process of sadhana for an adherer of pure gyaana yoga. > > > > > > > > > > > > However, the gyaana (knowledge of Self) achieved by such a person at the end is not really different from the knowledge of Self achieved by a person following another path. > > > > > > > > > > > > Best regards, > > > > > > Narasimha > > > > > > > > > > > > > Try the new India Homepage. http://in./trynew > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 4, 2009 Report Share Posted October 4, 2009 Namaste, > " Ahamkara isn't the dominant cause of I-ness in Astral/Causal bodies " What a strange statement!! After all, aham = I kaara = ness ahamkaara = I-ness. Thus, ahamkaara *IS* the I-ness of an individualized consciousness. You are talking of ahamkaara being the " cause of " I-ness. But ahamkaara IS the I-ness! * * * Whether you talk about physical body or subtle body or causal body, I-ness in various layers is still ahamkaara. When ahamkaara binds more to one layer, one looks at oneself primarily from the perspective of that layer. When ahamkaara does not bind to anything at all, one is in nirvikalpa samadhi, i.e. established in Brahman. Ahamkaara or I-ness is a fundamental property of an individualized consciousness and remains as long as there is some individualization. * * * > THUS, THE BEAUTIFUL ASTRAL SPHERE ARE SENSED BY THE I-NESS OF MANAS, > while CAUSAL SPHERE ARE SENSED BY THE I-NESS OF CHITTA. So you are accepting that there as " I-ness of manas " and " I-ness of chitta " . I-ness=aham-kaara. If we replace I-ness in these terms, we get " ahamkaara of manas " and " ahamkaara of chitta " . When scriptures defined the 19 proerties of individualized consciousness, they only defined one ahamkaara apart from manas, chitta etc and did not define " ahamkaara of manas " and " ahamkaara of chitta " etc. For what I termed as ahamkaara (I-ness) working through manas and ahamkaara (I-ness) working through chitta, you are coining new terms like " I-ness of manas " and " I-ness of chitta " because you have this strange notion that ahamkaara is tied to physical body. * * * > IF THE AHAMKARA IS NOT SUPPRESSED AFTER PHYSICAL DEATH, THE PERSON WILL > KEEP CARRYING THE SAME EARTHLY IDENTITY TO THE ASTRAL PLANES, AND BRING IT > BACK AT REBIRTH TO THE EARTH. AND THEN, HE WILL RECLAIM HIS LOST TERRITORY > AND WEALTH - THE CONFLICTS THAT WILL ARISE WILL BE BEYOND ANYBODY'S CONTROL. > THUS, THE BEAUTIFUL ASTRAL SPHERE ARE SENSED BY THE I-NESS OF MANAS, > while CAUSAL SPHERE ARE SENSED BY THE I-NESS OF CHITTA. Of course, ahamkaara (I-ness) associating mainly with a physical body is bad. We have no disagreement there. The astral sphere may be beautiful to some. But, to a true jnaani, it is a source of problems too, though the problems are lighter than the problems of the physical domain. Celestials without physical bodies and having only ethereal bodies have desires too and they are bonded too. * * * I still think this is a case of a Pascal language programmer unfamiliar with C language misunderstanding some software written in C language and passing comments. But unfortunately that programmer seems to be hasty in using labels like " flawed " , " incorrect " , " incoherent " etc about other programmers whose language he is unable to understand. Best regards, Narasimha Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAstrologer.org/homam Do Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAstrologer.org/tarpana Spirituality: Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro.home.comcast.net Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAstrologer.org Jyotish writings: JyotishWritings Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagannath.org , " yeeahoo_99 " <nitish.arya wrote: > > || OM TAT SAT || > Namaskar Rajarshi, > > Thanks for your contribution - all you have done is to prove what is already known. > > > Therefore, Ahamkara exists even in beyond the death for a normal > > human being. Therewfore, Ahamkara is present in the astral/casual > > plane as well. > > 1. Do you realize what is being talked about and what you have ended up proving ? Wherein did I deny that Ahamkara is not present in Astral/Causal bodies ? > > Ahamkara is an idea in Causal-body, so it is present all the time till the soul is freed of the three body containers. > > 2. OTOH, What I have stated, with reference to Patanjali Sutras, is that Ahamkara is " SUPPRESSED " in Astral and Causal bodies. Meaning > > " Ahamkara isn't the dominant cause of I-ness in Astral/Causal bodies " > > And as a result wouldn't contribute to the acquisition of Astral/Causal Karma. > > Why is Ahamkara not dominant in Astral/Causal bodies ? > The reason I have already given in the first mail in sufficient detail. > > IF THE AHAMKARA IS NOT SUPPRESSED AFTER PHYSICAL DEATH, THE PERSON WILL KEEP CARRYING THE SAME EARTHLY IDENTITY TO THE ASTRAL PLANES, AND BRING IT BACK AT REBIRTH TO THE EARTH. AND THEN, HE WILL RECLAIM HIS LOST TERRITORY AND WEALTH - THE CONFLICTS THAT WILL ARISE WILL BE BEYOND ANYBODY'S CONTROL. > THUS, THE BEAUTIFUL ASTRAL SPHERE ARE SENSED BY THE I-NESS OF MANAS, while CAUSAL SPHERE ARE SENSED BY THE I-NESS OF CHITTA. > > Please read more of " Sri Sri Paramahansa Yogananda " , he has mentioned about all these things (what happens to a soul at death and so on) in such a simplistic manner in his Gita commentaries, that even a layman can understand it. > > Regards, > Nitish > > , rajarshi nandy <rajarshi14@> wrote: > > > > Namaste > > > > Proof by Contradiction > > A person who lives as a farmer, should, after death, remain a farmer in the astral cosmos, and after subsequent astral death, should be reborn as the same farmer with the same name and same identity as in his previous earthly incarnation. > > > > Wrong example. > > > > A person after his death, depending on his tendencies in this life and level of spiritual evolution will retain some aspects of his personality, which means a person who loves music intensely will also in his next birth have an affinity for music. The conditions of the birth and inbetween period depends both on his inherent samaskaras as well the karmic repurcussion. It not, never, entirely once choice. It a mix and match between what one wants and what one deserves. IN all cases, to be able to retain the samskara Ahamakara is needed. Therefore, Ahamkara exists even in beyond the death for a normal human being. Therewfore, Ahamkara is present in the astral/casual plane as well. > > > > > > Corollary #1: > > A Devata as an Astral-being has I-ness due to his Manas, and doesn't have Ahamkara for the work done by him in all the various physical bodies. > > > > > > This example becomse invalid since the analysis of the first example itself in incorrect. > > > > -Regards > > Rajarshi > > > > > > > > The upsurge (of consciousness) is Bhairava - Shiva Sutra > > > > --- On Sun, 4/10/09, yeeahoo_99 <nitish.arya@> wrote: > > > > > > yeeahoo_99 <nitish.arya@> > > Re: Gyan Marga > > > > Sunday, 4 October, 2009, 9:40 AM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > || OM TAT SAT || > > Dear Narasimha and Sundeep, > > > > Thanks for your feedback. I thought, I had written a quite clear and explicit mail, but your reply has proved that it needs to be put down in at least 10-fold simpler words. > > > > You read my mail, but picked up notions in an incorrect, incoherent manner, and are reading beyond what is written in my mail. > > > > To prove my point, I would ask Sundeep to read my previous mail on " Gyan Marg " followed by your reply and see if he also picks up the notions in the same manner as you did ? > > > > The only addition required is an example: > > > > Your hypothesis > > Ahamkara is the only I-ness there is for all the beings in all the 3 cosmoses i.e. all the Physical, Astral and Causal-bodied beings. > > > > Proof by Contradiction > > A person who lives as a farmer, should, after death, remain a farmer in the astral cosmos, and after subsequent astral death, should be reborn as the same farmer with the same name and same identity as in his previous earthly incarnation. > > This is not the case, people don't even remember what they were in previous birth, and start their life afresh in a new earthly body > > => Contradiction > > => the original hypothesis is wrong > > => Ahamkara is not the only sense of I-ness applicable to all beings in all the 3 cosmoses. > > > > Inference #1: > > => Ahamkara is dominant sense of I-ness in Physical Cosmos. > > => Manas is dominant sense of I-ness in Astral Cosmos. > > => Chitta is dominant sense of I-ness in Causal Cosmos. > > > > Corollary #1: > > A Devata as an Astral-being has I-ness due to his Manas, and doesn't have Ahamkara for the work done by him in all the various physical bodies. > > > > Inference #1 and Corollary #1 is what I had written in my previous mail on this topic. > > > > There are many other ways to prove the contradiction on this hypothesis (e.g. Powers of beings in physical cosmos < those in astral cosmos < those in causal cosmos). > > > > Your made two additional points that are also invalid. My comments on that is: > > > > 1. I-ness derived from Ahamkara,Manas and Chitta has no innate power to Control any other idea of the 35 Causal-ideas. > > Reason: > > Soul is the only Truth and controller, everything else has an unreal and derived existence. Thus, all the 35 ideas co-ordinate with each other, and not control each other. > > > > 2. A new-born child or a person in Hypnotic-Trance, is able to use his sense-consciousness coherently due to the astral-bodys' sense of I-ness derived from Manas, that coordinates the senses. > > He has no Buddhi or discriminating faculty to interact with manas (sensory-motor mind) and tell it what to do - as you have proposed. Thus, Manas co-ordinates the senses due to its own sense of I-ness, not due to Buddhi. > > > > I hope this clarifies. > > > > Regards, > > Nitish > > > > , Narasimha PVR Rao <pvr@> wrote: > > > > > > Namaste, > > > > > > Out of the 19 or 35 attributes of individualized consciousness, which one gives the idea " I am this " or " I am that " ? Of course, it is ahamkaraka or I-ness or egosense or ego principle! > > > > > > Is one's idea of " I am this " limited to a physical body? Of course not! If someone says " so and so person is a terrible person " , one may feel offended or if someone says " so and so person is a great person " , one may feel elated. One's ahamkara or I-ness is identifying with the criticism or praise, even though nothing is being done to the physical body and only a name is being used. When somebody calls one by name from distance (as opposed to patting on the physical body and calling), one's consciousness may still think " I am being called " and one may turn towards the caller. As in these examples, one's I-ness does of course bind itself to more than a body. > > > > > > Suppose one gets a dream while sleeping. One may have forgotten totally about the physical body in the dream! One may think of something else as " I " . In dreams, one may see oneself as a different body or may not even " see " onself, but still one may have the sense that so and so thing is happening to " me " . So, even when the mind is drawn away from the physical body, there is still a notion of " I am this " (I-ness) in a dream. That is ahamkara or I-ness or ego principle. > > > > > > Your idea that ahamkara is limited to physical body is absolutely unacceptable. Ahamkara or I-ness extends beyond the physical body. > > > > > > Also, your idea that deities like Agni do not have ahamkara (I-ness) because they do not have physical bodies is incorrect. Of course, Agni does have an I-ness and thinks " I am Agni and this is what I do " . If he did not have that I-ness, he would not do everything he does. > > > > > > Moreover, the 19 or 35 ideas of individualized consciousness do interact with each other, whether we use the word " control " for some of those interactions or not. For example, buddhi (intellectual/ discriminating mind) judges various past experiences, interacts with manas (sensory-motor mind) and tells it what to do. Then manas interacts with karmendriyas (organs of action) and makes them do various things. My buddhi determined what to write and my manas told my hands to type this and I ended up typing. > > > > > > Your point about " what exists as a part cannot be the whole " is totally out of place. The sense of I-ness, the memories and conditioning, the logical mind, the sensory-motor mind, karmendriyas etc are all different parts of individualized consciousness and they play different roles while interacting with each other in different ways. Some of those interactions may be deemed to be controls. > > > > > > > Am not mixing up the terminologies, though my mail didn't > > > > go in details. Your understanding is flawed. > > > > > > > > 2. Where did you read this up ? > > > > > > One does not " read up " these things in a single place. There are different abstractions and breakdowns of what happens in individualized consciousness. There are several sources that speak of different aspects of this knowledge in slightly different terms. One will assimilate this knowledge better if one reads as many sources as possible and contemplates. > > > > > > Best regards, > > > Narasimha > > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- - > > > Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ homam > > > Do Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ tarpana > > > Spirituality: http://groups. / group/vedic- wisdom > > > Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro. home.comcast. net > > > Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAst rologer.org > > > Jyotish writings: http://groups. / group/JyotishWri tings > > > Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagan nath.org > > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- - > > > > > > ---- yeeahoo_99 <nitish.arya@ ...> wrote: > > > > || OM TAT SAT || > > > > Dear Narasimha, > > > > Please Ignore my previous-mail, it was not completed - i will try to delete it. > > > > > > > > Am not mixing up the terminologies, though my mail didn't go in details. Your understanding is flawed. > > > > > > > > 1. All ideas including the idea of Ahamkara naturally belong to the ideational or causal body, but Ahamkara must be overcome only in the physical body (See point 5.). Astral or Causal-bodied beings (those without a physical/astral body) don't have to fight with the idea of Ahamkara like we do. > > > > > > > > > Ahamkaara/ego controls manas and buddhi also. When manas (sensory- > > > > > ...they are all guided by the sense of I-ness. That sense of I-ness > > > > > permeates through all layers of one's individualized consciousness. > > > > > > > > 2. Where did you read this up ? > > > > > > > > There is a fine line between the sense of I-ness attributed to the Individual Soul and the sense of I-ness derived through the idea of Ahamkara. Even after a Soul is freed of the three bodies, the individuality of the Soul Atom is not destroyed (Resurrection implies that), while it has already given up the idea of Ahamkara including all other ideas. > > > > > > > > Individuality of a causal-bodied being is not due to the idea of Ahamkara because " What exists as a part cannot be the whole " . Thus, the idea of Ahamkara, being one of the 35 ideas of the Causal-body, doesn't account for neither controls the rest of the 34 ideas. Each idea is independent of another, without requiring another idea to act upon it - otherwise your buddhi would always interfere with the functioning of Mind or Ahamkara or the 5 functions of life-forces and so on. > > > > > > > > Essentially, the 35 ideas of causal body are the basic causal forces and are not related as cause-effect to each other. Thus, each is independent of the application of the sense of I-ness derived from Ahamkara. Manas and Buddhi being two of the Causal-ideas, their functioning as well as existence is not " controlled " nor " derived " in any way by the idea of Ahamkara. It is very clear when we see those with sharpest Buddhi or Sharpest Mind still carrying Heaviest Ahamkara, because they didn't work upon that particular idea. > > > > > > > > > > > > > But ego/ahamkaara/ I-ness is the very basis of the entire > > > > > individualized consciousness. > > > > > > > > 3. Well, as most Physical-bodied beings cannot see through the Astral/causal cosmoses, it doesn't apply in the same way to the finer Astral and Causal-bodied beings who can always pierce the veil of Maya and see the human activities. Thus, what is " the very basis " of the entire individualized consciousness for a physical-bodied (unenlightened) being is not the same as for an astral/causal bodied being. > > > > An Astral-bodied being thinks of Manas/sense- consciousness as the very basis of the entire individualized consciousness. > > > > A Causal-bodied being thinks of Chitta/perceptive- consciousness as the very basis of the entire individualized consciousness. > > > > However, that individuality is of the Soul not derived from any idea, which is why it is not lost when the Astral being loses astral consciousness and reincarnates in the Physical body. > > > > > > > > As an example, Devatas, with their finer bodies, are able to work through all the beings in all their physical-bodies simultaneously (like Ganesh resides in the Mooladhara, Agni digests the food, and so on..), never getting controlled by Ahamkara that would require them to say that this particular body is " my body " or that one is mine - unless they incarnate in Physical bodies themselves. Devatas are, however, Astral/Causal- bodied beings, so they would attempt to influence the Manas (Spirit-Possession) of the sense-bound worshipper. Pretas on the other hand, would attempt to possess ones' physical body as well as act out their Ahamkara. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Out of the four antahkaranas, chitta (remembering or conditioned > > > > > mind) and ahamkaara (ego or I-ness) are parts of the kaarana > > > > > sareera (causal body) and remain till the end. > > > > > > > > 4. As per the resurrected Soul of Sri Yukteswar in Autobiography of a Yogi - > > > > > > > > Causal body is a matrix of 35 ideas, that include 19 ideas comprising Astral body (Chitta, Manas, Buddhi, Ahamkara, 5 functions of knowledge, 5 functions of Action, 5 functions of life-force) and 16 ideas comprising Physical body (16 chemical elements). > > > > > > > > Now, as we all know that Physical body expires as a whole, not just one or two of the 16 elements comprising it go away at a time, Astral and Causal bodies are also cast off as a whole in the corresponding cosmic consciousness - instead of different constituent ideas slipping out of it at different times. Chitta being the staging idea for all other modifications, can be termed as the last to go, when the causal body is finally dropped - hence I wrote as rising above Chitta. > > > > > > > > Thus, the idea of Ahamkara is bound with Gross Physical vibrations, > > > > Manas with Subtle Astral vibrations and > > > > Chitta with infinitely Subtle Causal Vibrations. > > > > > > > > Buddhi being another variable, can be developed or undeveloped irrespective of the other 34. Even illiterate Moodha, through surrender to their Guru, attain freedom from Ahamkara and so on... > > > > > > > > BTW, Chitta is not the Conditioned Mind. Chitta does store the residual impressions of all the past incarnations. However, being constituted of Satwa Guna, it doesn't have any inherent ability to act upon (Rajas) those impressions, just like a container containing an inflammable liquid doesn't automatically burn it down. Sadhana is required for That. > > > > The Samskaras stored by Chitta, including those of Nidra, Smriti, Vikalpa, Viparyaya, Pramana, correspond to the Tamo Guna, while the Chitta itself is Satva Guna - hence the " Satvic - Tamas " represents the SuperEther tattwa (refer my previous mail). The all-perceiving Satvic Chitta doesn't get conditioned by the Tamo-guni Samskaras it stores. > > > > Once the Chitta calms down, cleared of all residual impressions, only Satva Guna remains, the intuition becomes coherent and the Soul reflects on itself as distinct from Satva Guna of Prakriti (Chitta), thus realizing its own nature as Brahman. > > > > > > > > 5. > > > > In Patanjali Yoga Sutras: > > > > drigadarshanaktyore katmataivasmita -6 > > > > Egoism is the identification of the seer with the instrument of seeing. Patanjali has used Asmita instead of Ahamkara. > > > > Since astral-bodied beings can use any of the senses like eyes to see, hear, smell, taste and so on (refer Autobiography of a Yogi)... the sense of egoism does not take roots in the astral-body and hence doesn't create Astral Karma. Similarly, Causal bodied beings can use thought to sense everything. > > > > > > > > Hence, Egotism has to be rooted out while the consciousness is associated with the Physical Body sensory activities or has Physical Karma. > > > > > > > > 6. The idea of Manas, as the controller of sense-consciousness , must be overcome in Astral body, through Vairagya. Read autobiography of a Yogi (chapter 43) where Sri Yukteswar illustrates that only those beings who cannot be tempted to go back to the pleasing to the eye Astral cosmos are permitted to stay permanently in the Causal cosmos. Pleasing to the eye implies Sense-consciousness which is associated with Manas. > > > > > > > > In Patanjali Yoga Sutras also it is mentioned in the same manner : > > > > > > > > dristanushravika vishaya vitrishnasya vashikara samjnavairagyam -15- > > > > > > > > That effect which comes to these who have given up their thirst after objects, either seen or heard, and which wills to control the objects, is non-attachment. Vivekananda has commented that Vairagya is the only way to freedom. > > > > > > > > This is to be accomplished by transferring the consciousness to Astral-Body and working out the Astral Karma or otherwise as an astral-bodied being. > > > > > > > > 7. Patanjali Yoga Sutras: > > > > yogashchittavrittin irodhah -2- > > > > Thus, extinguishing all the movements of Chitta is called " Yoga " . > > > > > > > > This is to be accomplished by transferring the consciousness to Causal-Body and working out the Causal Karma or otherwise as a causal-bodied being. > > > > > > > > I hope this clarifies. > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > Nitish > > > > > > > > , Narasimha PVR Rao <pvr@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Namaste Nitish, > > > > > > > > > > I am afraid you are mixing up terminologies. For example, ego or ahamkaara (sense of I-ness) is not limited to the physical body, but extends to subtle body and causal body as well. In fact, ego resides in the causal body and affects other bodies. Out of the four antahkaranas, chitta (remembering or conditioned mind) and ahamkaara (ego or I-ness) are parts of the kaarana sareera (causal body) and remain till the end. > > > > > > > > > > Ahamkaara/ego controls manas and buddhi also. When manas (sensory-motor mind) observes sensory inputs or buddhi (intellectual or thinking mind) analyzes current and past observations of mind or chitta (remembering or conditioned mind) stores various observations or retrieves previously stored observations, they are all guided by the sense of I-ness. That sense of I-ness permeates through all layers of one's individualized consciousness. > > > > > > > > > > Upanishads and various scriptures have broken down the individualized consciousness into various groups by functionality, like five koshas, three sareeras, five praanas, five jnaanendriyas, five karmendriyas, four antahkaranas, six/seven chakras etc. But ego/ahamkaara/ I-ness is the very basis of the entire individualized consciousness. > > > > > > > > > > Though the word jnaana means different things to different people, a jnaana yogi pursues Self by the path of contemplation and discrimination. When a jnaana yogi reaches the final target, all bodies and koshas are merged in cosmos. > > > > > > > > > > Best regards, > > > > > Narasimha > > > > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- - > > > > > Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ homam > > > > > Do Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ tarpana > > > > > Spirituality: http://groups. / group/vedic- wisdom > > > > > Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro. home.comcast. net > > > > > Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAst rologer.org > > > > > Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagan nath.org > > > > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- - > > > > > > > > > > ---- yeeahoo_99 <nitish.arya@ > wrote: > > > > > > || OM TAT SAT || > > > > > > Dear Narasimha, > > > > > > In my opinion, there are three distinct phases that lead the sould to rise above Ego, Mind and Chitta - corresponding to the three bodies physical (Sthoola), astral (Sookshma) and causal (Karana) resp. > > > > > > > > > > > > Rising above Ego is Jnana - Merging Physical body in Physical cosmos > > > > > > Rising above Mind is Vairagya - Merging Astral body in Astral cosmos > > > > > > Rising above Chitta is Yoga - Merging Causal body in Causal cosmos > > > > > > > > > > > > Finally, becoming established in Para-Brahman is YogaArudha. > > > > > > > > > > > > Your comments. > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > Nitish > > > > > > > > > > > > , " Narasimha P.V.R. Rao " <pvr@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Namaste, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Gyaani or jnaani is a wise and learned person, who may or may not debate (or even engage) with others. One may become a gyaani using either gyaana yoga or bhakti yoga or karma yoga or raaja yoga. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Gyaana/jnaana yoga is a path of pursuing the Supreme through intellectual analysis. One pursuing that path may or may not debate with others and may or may not read many scriptures, but one will analyze and debate within oneself. One starts with the basic axioms (e.g. Self is imperishable and without a beginning or an end). One will go on eliminating things that one is aware of as not being Self. For example, body has a beginning and end and is perishable. So it is not Self. One introspects like this and, though the process of elimination, finally finds the true Self. That is gyaana yoga. Pure gyaana yoga is very difficult to follow in this age. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Vichaara (contemplation) is the process of sadhana for an adherer of pure gyaana yoga. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > However, the gyaana (knowledge of Self) achieved by such a person at the end is not really different from the knowledge of Self achieved by a person following another path. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Best regards, > > > > > > > Narasimha Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 4, 2009 Report Share Posted October 4, 2009 Namaste Nitish ji, >Ahamkara is an idea in Causal-body, so it is present all the time >till the >soul is freed of the three body containers. > " Ahamkara isn't the dominant cause of I-ness in Astral/Causal >bodies " I am not getting your point here. you agree in the above given first statement that Ahamkaara is an Idea present in all three bodies and remains TILL the soul is freed from all the three containers. The second statement says something radical. Ahamkaara and I Ness is completely two different identity. your second statment is a departure from almost every Gnyaani has to say. I pray...you please clarify your understanding of Ahamkaara and I Ness. looking forward to explanation of the above. Thanks & Regards, Utpal , " yeeahoo_99 " <nitish.arya wrote: > > || OM TAT SAT || > Namaskar Rajarshi, > > Thanks for your contribution - all you have done is to prove what is already known. > > > Therefore, Ahamkara exists even in beyond the death for a normal > > human being. Therewfore, Ahamkara is present in the astral/casual > > plane as well. > > 1. Do you realize what is being talked about and what you have ended up proving ? Wherein did I deny that Ahamkara is not present in Astral/Causal bodies ? > > Ahamkara is an idea in Causal-body, so it is present all the time till the soul is freed of the three body containers. > > 2. OTOH, What I have stated, with reference to Patanjali Sutras, is that Ahamkara is " SUPPRESSED " in Astral and Causal bodies. Meaning > > " Ahamkara isn't the dominant cause of I-ness in Astral/Causal bodies " > > And as a result wouldn't contribute to the acquisition of Astral/Causal Karma. > > Why is Ahamkara not dominant in Astral/Causal bodies ? > The reason I have already given in the first mail in sufficient detail. > > IF THE AHAMKARA IS NOT SUPPRESSED AFTER PHYSICAL DEATH, THE PERSON WILL KEEP CARRYING THE SAME EARTHLY IDENTITY TO THE ASTRAL PLANES, AND BRING IT BACK AT REBIRTH TO THE EARTH. AND THEN, HE WILL RECLAIM HIS LOST TERRITORY AND WEALTH - THE CONFLICTS THAT WILL ARISE WILL BE BEYOND ANYBODY'S CONTROL. > THUS, THE BEAUTIFUL ASTRAL SPHERE ARE SENSED BY THE I-NESS OF MANAS, while CAUSAL SPHERE ARE SENSED BY THE I-NESS OF CHITTA. > > Please read more of " Sri Sri Paramahansa Yogananda " , he has mentioned about all these things (what happens to a soul at death and so on) in such a simplistic manner in his Gita commentaries, that even a layman can understand it. > > Regards, > Nitish > > , rajarshi nandy <rajarshi14@> wrote: > > > > Namaste > > > > Proof by Contradiction > > A person who lives as a farmer, should, after death, remain a farmer in the astral cosmos, and after subsequent astral death, should be reborn as the same farmer with the same name and same identity as in his previous earthly incarnation. > > > > Wrong example. > > > > A person after his death, depending on his tendencies in this life and level of spiritual evolution will retain some aspects of his personality, which means a person who loves music intensely will also in his next birth have an affinity for music. The conditions of the birth and inbetween period depends both on his inherent samaskaras as well the karmic repurcussion. It not, never, entirely once choice. It a mix and match between what one wants and what one deserves. IN all cases, to be able to retain the samskara Ahamakara is needed. Therefore, Ahamkara exists even in beyond the death for a normal human being. Therewfore, Ahamkara is present in the astral/casual plane as well. > > > > > > Corollary #1: > > A Devata as an Astral-being has I-ness due to his Manas, and doesn't have Ahamkara for the work done by him in all the various physical bodies. > > > > > > This example becomse invalid since the analysis of the first example itself in incorrect. > > > > -Regards > > Rajarshi > > > > > > > > The upsurge (of consciousness) is Bhairava - Shiva Sutra > > > > --- On Sun, 4/10/09, yeeahoo_99 <nitish.arya@> wrote: > > > > > > yeeahoo_99 <nitish.arya@> > > Re: Gyan Marga > > > > Sunday, 4 October, 2009, 9:40 AM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > || OM TAT SAT || > > Dear Narasimha and Sundeep, > > > > Thanks for your feedback. I thought, I had written a quite clear and explicit mail, but your reply has proved that it needs to be put down in at least 10-fold simpler words. > > > > You read my mail, but picked up notions in an incorrect, incoherent manner, and are reading beyond what is written in my mail. > > > > To prove my point, I would ask Sundeep to read my previous mail on " Gyan Marg " followed by your reply and see if he also picks up the notions in the same manner as you did ? > > > > The only addition required is an example: > > > > Your hypothesis > > Ahamkara is the only I-ness there is for all the beings in all the 3 cosmoses i.e. all the Physical, Astral and Causal-bodied beings. > > > > Proof by Contradiction > > A person who lives as a farmer, should, after death, remain a farmer in the astral cosmos, and after subsequent astral death, should be reborn as the same farmer with the same name and same identity as in his previous earthly incarnation. > > This is not the case, people don't even remember what they were in previous birth, and start their life afresh in a new earthly body > > => Contradiction > > => the original hypothesis is wrong > > => Ahamkara is not the only sense of I-ness applicable to all beings in all the 3 cosmoses. > > > > Inference #1: > > => Ahamkara is dominant sense of I-ness in Physical Cosmos. > > => Manas is dominant sense of I-ness in Astral Cosmos. > > => Chitta is dominant sense of I-ness in Causal Cosmos. > > > > Corollary #1: > > A Devata as an Astral-being has I-ness due to his Manas, and doesn't have Ahamkara for the work done by him in all the various physical bodies. > > > > Inference #1 and Corollary #1 is what I had written in my previous mail on this topic. > > > > There are many other ways to prove the contradiction on this hypothesis (e.g. Powers of beings in physical cosmos < those in astral cosmos < those in causal cosmos). > > > > Your made two additional points that are also invalid. My comments on that is: > > > > 1. I-ness derived from Ahamkara,Manas and Chitta has no innate power to Control any other idea of the 35 Causal-ideas. > > Reason: > > Soul is the only Truth and controller, everything else has an unreal and derived existence. Thus, all the 35 ideas co-ordinate with each other, and not control each other. > > > > 2. A new-born child or a person in Hypnotic-Trance, is able to use his sense-consciousness coherently due to the astral-bodys' sense of I-ness derived from Manas, that coordinates the senses. > > He has no Buddhi or discriminating faculty to interact with manas (sensory-motor mind) and tell it what to do - as you have proposed. Thus, Manas co-ordinates the senses due to its own sense of I-ness, not due to Buddhi. > > > > I hope this clarifies. > > > > Regards, > > Nitish > > > > , Narasimha PVR Rao <pvr@> wrote: > > > > > > Namaste, > > > > > > Out of the 19 or 35 attributes of individualized consciousness, which one gives the idea " I am this " or " I am that " ? Of course, it is ahamkaraka or I-ness or egosense or ego principle! > > > > > > Is one's idea of " I am this " limited to a physical body? Of course not! If someone says " so and so person is a terrible person " , one may feel offended or if someone says " so and so person is a great person " , one may feel elated. One's ahamkara or I-ness is identifying with the criticism or praise, even though nothing is being done to the physical body and only a name is being used. When somebody calls one by name from distance (as opposed to patting on the physical body and calling), one's consciousness may still think " I am being called " and one may turn towards the caller. As in these examples, one's I-ness does of course bind itself to more than a body. > > > > > > Suppose one gets a dream while sleeping. One may have forgotten totally about the physical body in the dream! One may think of something else as " I " . In dreams, one may see oneself as a different body or may not even " see " onself, but still one may have the sense that so and so thing is happening to " me " . So, even when the mind is drawn away from the physical body, there is still a notion of " I am this " (I-ness) in a dream. That is ahamkara or I-ness or ego principle. > > > > > > Your idea that ahamkara is limited to physical body is absolutely unacceptable. Ahamkara or I-ness extends beyond the physical body. > > > > > > Also, your idea that deities like Agni do not have ahamkara (I-ness) because they do not have physical bodies is incorrect. Of course, Agni does have an I-ness and thinks " I am Agni and this is what I do " . If he did not have that I-ness, he would not do everything he does. > > > > > > Moreover, the 19 or 35 ideas of individualized consciousness do interact with each other, whether we use the word " control " for some of those interactions or not. For example, buddhi (intellectual/ discriminating mind) judges various past experiences, interacts with manas (sensory-motor mind) and tells it what to do. Then manas interacts with karmendriyas (organs of action) and makes them do various things. My buddhi determined what to write and my manas told my hands to type this and I ended up typing. > > > > > > Your point about " what exists as a part cannot be the whole " is totally out of place. The sense of I-ness, the memories and conditioning, the logical mind, the sensory-motor mind, karmendriyas etc are all different parts of individualized consciousness and they play different roles while interacting with each other in different ways. Some of those interactions may be deemed to be controls. > > > > > > > Am not mixing up the terminologies, though my mail didn't > > > > go in details. Your understanding is flawed. > > > > > > > > 2. Where did you read this up ? > > > > > > One does not " read up " these things in a single place. There are different abstractions and breakdowns of what happens in individualized consciousness. There are several sources that speak of different aspects of this knowledge in slightly different terms. One will assimilate this knowledge better if one reads as many sources as possible and contemplates. > > > > > > Best regards, > > > Narasimha > > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- - > > > Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ homam > > > Do Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ tarpana > > > Spirituality: http://groups. / group/vedic- wisdom > > > Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro. home.comcast. net > > > Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAst rologer.org > > > Jyotish writings: http://groups. / group/JyotishWri tings > > > Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagan nath.org > > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- - > > > > > > ---- yeeahoo_99 <nitish.arya@ ...> wrote: > > > > || OM TAT SAT || > > > > Dear Narasimha, > > > > Please Ignore my previous-mail, it was not completed - i will try to delete it. > > > > > > > > Am not mixing up the terminologies, though my mail didn't go in details. Your understanding is flawed. > > > > > > > > 1. All ideas including the idea of Ahamkara naturally belong to the ideational or causal body, but Ahamkara must be overcome only in the physical body (See point 5.). Astral or Causal-bodied beings (those without a physical/astral body) don't have to fight with the idea of Ahamkara like we do. > > > > > > > > > Ahamkaara/ego controls manas and buddhi also. When manas (sensory- > > > > > ...they are all guided by the sense of I-ness. That sense of I-ness > > > > > permeates through all layers of one's individualized consciousness. > > > > > > > > 2. Where did you read this up ? > > > > > > > > There is a fine line between the sense of I-ness attributed to the Individual Soul and the sense of I-ness derived through the idea of Ahamkara. Even after a Soul is freed of the three bodies, the individuality of the Soul Atom is not destroyed (Resurrection implies that), while it has already given up the idea of Ahamkara including all other ideas. > > > > > > > > Individuality of a causal-bodied being is not due to the idea of Ahamkara because " What exists as a part cannot be the whole " . Thus, the idea of Ahamkara, being one of the 35 ideas of the Causal-body, doesn't account for neither controls the rest of the 34 ideas. Each idea is independent of another, without requiring another idea to act upon it - otherwise your buddhi would always interfere with the functioning of Mind or Ahamkara or the 5 functions of life-forces and so on. > > > > > > > > Essentially, the 35 ideas of causal body are the basic causal forces and are not related as cause-effect to each other. Thus, each is independent of the application of the sense of I-ness derived from Ahamkara. Manas and Buddhi being two of the Causal-ideas, their functioning as well as existence is not " controlled " nor " derived " in any way by the idea of Ahamkara. It is very clear when we see those with sharpest Buddhi or Sharpest Mind still carrying Heaviest Ahamkara, because they didn't work upon that particular idea. > > > > > > > > > > > > > But ego/ahamkaara/ I-ness is the very basis of the entire > > > > > individualized consciousness. > > > > > > > > 3. Well, as most Physical-bodied beings cannot see through the Astral/causal cosmoses, it doesn't apply in the same way to the finer Astral and Causal-bodied beings who can always pierce the veil of Maya and see the human activities. Thus, what is " the very basis " of the entire individualized consciousness for a physical-bodied (unenlightened) being is not the same as for an astral/causal bodied being. > > > > An Astral-bodied being thinks of Manas/sense- consciousness as the very basis of the entire individualized consciousness. > > > > A Causal-bodied being thinks of Chitta/perceptive- consciousness as the very basis of the entire individualized consciousness. > > > > However, that individuality is of the Soul not derived from any idea, which is why it is not lost when the Astral being loses astral consciousness and reincarnates in the Physical body. > > > > > > > > As an example, Devatas, with their finer bodies, are able to work through all the beings in all their physical-bodies simultaneously (like Ganesh resides in the Mooladhara, Agni digests the food, and so on..), never getting controlled by Ahamkara that would require them to say that this particular body is " my body " or that one is mine - unless they incarnate in Physical bodies themselves. Devatas are, however, Astral/Causal- bodied beings, so they would attempt to influence the Manas (Spirit-Possession) of the sense-bound worshipper. Pretas on the other hand, would attempt to possess ones' physical body as well as act out their Ahamkara. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Out of the four antahkaranas, chitta (remembering or conditioned > > > > > mind) and ahamkaara (ego or I-ness) are parts of the kaarana > > > > > sareera (causal body) and remain till the end. > > > > > > > > 4. As per the resurrected Soul of Sri Yukteswar in Autobiography of a Yogi - > > > > > > > > Causal body is a matrix of 35 ideas, that include 19 ideas comprising Astral body (Chitta, Manas, Buddhi, Ahamkara, 5 functions of knowledge, 5 functions of Action, 5 functions of life-force) and 16 ideas comprising Physical body (16 chemical elements). > > > > > > > > Now, as we all know that Physical body expires as a whole, not just one or two of the 16 elements comprising it go away at a time, Astral and Causal bodies are also cast off as a whole in the corresponding cosmic consciousness - instead of different constituent ideas slipping out of it at different times. Chitta being the staging idea for all other modifications, can be termed as the last to go, when the causal body is finally dropped - hence I wrote as rising above Chitta. > > > > > > > > Thus, the idea of Ahamkara is bound with Gross Physical vibrations, > > > > Manas with Subtle Astral vibrations and > > > > Chitta with infinitely Subtle Causal Vibrations. > > > > > > > > Buddhi being another variable, can be developed or undeveloped irrespective of the other 34. Even illiterate Moodha, through surrender to their Guru, attain freedom from Ahamkara and so on... > > > > > > > > BTW, Chitta is not the Conditioned Mind. Chitta does store the residual impressions of all the past incarnations. However, being constituted of Satwa Guna, it doesn't have any inherent ability to act upon (Rajas) those impressions, just like a container containing an inflammable liquid doesn't automatically burn it down. Sadhana is required for That. > > > > The Samskaras stored by Chitta, including those of Nidra, Smriti, Vikalpa, Viparyaya, Pramana, correspond to the Tamo Guna, while the Chitta itself is Satva Guna - hence the " Satvic - Tamas " represents the SuperEther tattwa (refer my previous mail). The all-perceiving Satvic Chitta doesn't get conditioned by the Tamo-guni Samskaras it stores. > > > > Once the Chitta calms down, cleared of all residual impressions, only Satva Guna remains, the intuition becomes coherent and the Soul reflects on itself as distinct from Satva Guna of Prakriti (Chitta), thus realizing its own nature as Brahman. > > > > > > > > 5. > > > > In Patanjali Yoga Sutras: > > > > drigadarshanaktyore katmataivasmita -6 > > > > Egoism is the identification of the seer with the instrument of seeing. Patanjali has used Asmita instead of Ahamkara. > > > > Since astral-bodied beings can use any of the senses like eyes to see, hear, smell, taste and so on (refer Autobiography of a Yogi)... the sense of egoism does not take roots in the astral-body and hence doesn't create Astral Karma. Similarly, Causal bodied beings can use thought to sense everything. > > > > > > > > Hence, Egotism has to be rooted out while the consciousness is associated with the Physical Body sensory activities or has Physical Karma. > > > > > > > > 6. The idea of Manas, as the controller of sense-consciousness , must be overcome in Astral body, through Vairagya. Read autobiography of a Yogi (chapter 43) where Sri Yukteswar illustrates that only those beings who cannot be tempted to go back to the pleasing to the eye Astral cosmos are permitted to stay permanently in the Causal cosmos. Pleasing to the eye implies Sense-consciousness which is associated with Manas. > > > > > > > > In Patanjali Yoga Sutras also it is mentioned in the same manner : > > > > > > > > dristanushravika vishaya vitrishnasya vashikara samjnavairagyam -15- > > > > > > > > That effect which comes to these who have given up their thirst after objects, either seen or heard, and which wills to control the objects, is non-attachment. Vivekananda has commented that Vairagya is the only way to freedom. > > > > > > > > This is to be accomplished by transferring the consciousness to Astral-Body and working out the Astral Karma or otherwise as an astral-bodied being. > > > > > > > > 7. Patanjali Yoga Sutras: > > > > yogashchittavrittin irodhah -2- > > > > Thus, extinguishing all the movements of Chitta is called " Yoga " . > > > > > > > > This is to be accomplished by transferring the consciousness to Causal-Body and working out the Causal Karma or otherwise as a causal-bodied being. > > > > > > > > I hope this clarifies. > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > Nitish > > > > > > > > , Narasimha PVR Rao <pvr@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Namaste Nitish, > > > > > > > > > > I am afraid you are mixing up terminologies. For example, ego or ahamkaara (sense of I-ness) is not limited to the physical body, but extends to subtle body and causal body as well. In fact, ego resides in the causal body and affects other bodies. Out of the four antahkaranas, chitta (remembering or conditioned mind) and ahamkaara (ego or I-ness) are parts of the kaarana sareera (causal body) and remain till the end. > > > > > > > > > > Ahamkaara/ego controls manas and buddhi also. When manas (sensory-motor mind) observes sensory inputs or buddhi (intellectual or thinking mind) analyzes current and past observations of mind or chitta (remembering or conditioned mind) stores various observations or retrieves previously stored observations, they are all guided by the sense of I-ness. That sense of I-ness permeates through all layers of one's individualized consciousness. > > > > > > > > > > Upanishads and various scriptures have broken down the individualized consciousness into various groups by functionality, like five koshas, three sareeras, five praanas, five jnaanendriyas, five karmendriyas, four antahkaranas, six/seven chakras etc. But ego/ahamkaara/ I-ness is the very basis of the entire individualized consciousness. > > > > > > > > > > Though the word jnaana means different things to different people, a jnaana yogi pursues Self by the path of contemplation and discrimination. When a jnaana yogi reaches the final target, all bodies and koshas are merged in cosmos. > > > > > > > > > > Best regards, > > > > > Narasimha > > > > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- - > > > > > Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ homam > > > > > Do Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ tarpana > > > > > Spirituality: http://groups. / group/vedic- wisdom > > > > > Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro. home.comcast. net > > > > > Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAst rologer.org > > > > > Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagan nath.org > > > > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- - > > > > > > > > > > ---- yeeahoo_99 <nitish.arya@ > wrote: > > > > > > || OM TAT SAT || > > > > > > Dear Narasimha, > > > > > > In my opinion, there are three distinct phases that lead the sould to rise above Ego, Mind and Chitta - corresponding to the three bodies physical (Sthoola), astral (Sookshma) and causal (Karana) resp. > > > > > > > > > > > > Rising above Ego is Jnana - Merging Physical body in Physical cosmos > > > > > > Rising above Mind is Vairagya - Merging Astral body in Astral cosmos > > > > > > Rising above Chitta is Yoga - Merging Causal body in Causal cosmos > > > > > > > > > > > > Finally, becoming established in Para-Brahman is YogaArudha. > > > > > > > > > > > > Your comments. > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > Nitish > > > > > > > > > > > > , " Narasimha P.V.R. Rao " <pvr@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Namaste, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Gyaani or jnaani is a wise and learned person, who may or may not debate (or even engage) with others. One may become a gyaani using either gyaana yoga or bhakti yoga or karma yoga or raaja yoga. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Gyaana/jnaana yoga is a path of pursuing the Supreme through intellectual analysis. One pursuing that path may or may not debate with others and may or may not read many scriptures, but one will analyze and debate within oneself. One starts with the basic axioms (e.g. Self is imperishable and without a beginning or an end). One will go on eliminating things that one is aware of as not being Self. For example, body has a beginning and end and is perishable. So it is not Self. One introspects like this and, though the process of elimination, finally finds the true Self. That is gyaana yoga. Pure gyaana yoga is very difficult to follow in this age. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Vichaara (contemplation) is the process of sadhana for an adherer of pure gyaana yoga. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > However, the gyaana (knowledge of Self) achieved by such a person at the end is not really different from the knowledge of Self achieved by a person following another path. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Best regards, > > > > > > > Narasimha > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Try the new India Homepage. http://in./trynew > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 4, 2009 Report Share Posted October 4, 2009 Respected Nitishji,I am a layman and probably much younger then you of 27 yrs with not such deep knowledge like you but i believe that God is everything and every causation to my problems(though I think them purification kriyas of the soul) and happiness(attachment kriyas of the soul) in this drama called life.But I cant control my curiosity from asking: What is your aim through this long discussion.Is it that you are commited in proving Narasimhaji wrong which is your afterall aim.If that is so what is your gain in it.For as far as I can understand these knowledge will not take you to God .Whats the point in discussing them now when after we reach God we will know everything. Friend is not we taking the opposite way- Patanjali,Yogananda and all the seers and Mahapurushas that we have mentioned in this thread have spoken what we now read after they had realised God.But we are discussing these things before realising God.If you had my friend realised God even if you said wrong in this forum everyone would have accepted it to be right because not of the knowledge but because of HIS blessings.Dont take whatever I said in some other way .Just was thinking where this long discussion was going and so spoke my mind out. Pardon me if I hurt anyones feelings.Thanking you.On Sun, Oct 4, 2009 at 4:45 PM, yeeahoo_99 <nitish.arya wrote: || OM TAT SAT || Namaskar Rajarshi, Thanks for your contribution - all you have done is to prove what is already known. > Therefore, Ahamkara exists even in beyond the death for a normal > human being. Therewfore, Ahamkara is present in the astral/casual > plane as well. 1. Do you realize what is being talked about and what you have ended up proving ? Wherein did I deny that Ahamkara is not present in Astral/Causal bodies ? Ahamkara is an idea in Causal-body, so it is present all the time till the soul is freed of the three body containers. 2. OTOH, What I have stated, with reference to Patanjali Sutras, is that Ahamkara is " SUPPRESSED " in Astral and Causal bodies. Meaning " Ahamkara isn't the dominant cause of I-ness in Astral/Causal bodies " And as a result wouldn't contribute to the acquisition of Astral/Causal Karma. Why is Ahamkara not dominant in Astral/Causal bodies ? The reason I have already given in the first mail in sufficient detail. IF THE AHAMKARA IS NOT SUPPRESSED AFTER PHYSICAL DEATH, THE PERSON WILL KEEP CARRYING THE SAME EARTHLY IDENTITY TO THE ASTRAL PLANES, AND BRING IT BACK AT REBIRTH TO THE EARTH. AND THEN, HE WILL RECLAIM HIS LOST TERRITORY AND WEALTH - THE CONFLICTS THAT WILL ARISE WILL BE BEYOND ANYBODY'S CONTROL. THUS, THE BEAUTIFUL ASTRAL SPHERE ARE SENSED BY THE I-NESS OF MANAS, while CAUSAL SPHERE ARE SENSED BY THE I-NESS OF CHITTA. Please read more of " Sri Sri Paramahansa Yogananda " , he has mentioned about all these things (what happens to a soul at death and so on) in such a simplistic manner in his Gita commentaries, that even a layman can understand it. Regards, Nitish , rajarshi nandy <rajarshi14 wrote: > > Namaste > > Proof by Contradiction > A person who lives as a farmer, should, after death, remain a farmer in the astral cosmos, and after subsequent astral death, should be reborn as the same farmer with the same name and same identity as in his previous earthly incarnation. > > Wrong example. > > A person after his death, depending on his tendencies in this life and level of spiritual evolution will retain some aspects of his personality, which means a person who loves music intensely will also in his next birth have an affinity for music. The conditions of the birth and inbetween period depends both on his inherent samaskaras as well the karmic repurcussion. It not, never, entirely once choice. It a mix and match between what one wants and what one deserves. IN all cases, to be able to retain the samskara Ahamakara is needed. Therefore, Ahamkara exists even in beyond the death for a normal human being. Therewfore, Ahamkara is present in the astral/casual plane as well. > > > Corollary #1: > A Devata as an Astral-being has I-ness due to his Manas, and doesn't have Ahamkara for the work done by him in all the various physical bodies. > > > This example becomse invalid since the analysis of the first example itself in incorrect. > > -Regards > Rajarshi > > > > The upsurge (of consciousness) is Bhairava - Shiva Sutra > > --- On Sun, 4/10/09, yeeahoo_99 <nitish.arya wrote: > > > yeeahoo_99 <nitish.arya > Re: Gyan Marga > > Sunday, 4 October, 2009, 9:40 AM > > > > > > > || OM TAT SAT || > Dear Narasimha and Sundeep, > > Thanks for your feedback. I thought, I had written a quite clear and explicit mail, but your reply has proved that it needs to be put down in at least 10-fold simpler words. > > You read my mail, but picked up notions in an incorrect, incoherent manner, and are reading beyond what is written in my mail. > > To prove my point, I would ask Sundeep to read my previous mail on " Gyan Marg " followed by your reply and see if he also picks up the notions in the same manner as you did ? > > The only addition required is an example: > > Your hypothesis > Ahamkara is the only I-ness there is for all the beings in all the 3 cosmoses i.e. all the Physical, Astral and Causal-bodied beings. > > Proof by Contradiction > A person who lives as a farmer, should, after death, remain a farmer in the astral cosmos, and after subsequent astral death, should be reborn as the same farmer with the same name and same identity as in his previous earthly incarnation. > This is not the case, people don't even remember what they were in previous birth, and start their life afresh in a new earthly body > => Contradiction > => the original hypothesis is wrong > => Ahamkara is not the only sense of I-ness applicable to all beings in all the 3 cosmoses. > > Inference #1: > => Ahamkara is dominant sense of I-ness in Physical Cosmos. > => Manas is dominant sense of I-ness in Astral Cosmos. > => Chitta is dominant sense of I-ness in Causal Cosmos. > > Corollary #1: > A Devata as an Astral-being has I-ness due to his Manas, and doesn't have Ahamkara for the work done by him in all the various physical bodies. > > Inference #1 and Corollary #1 is what I had written in my previous mail on this topic. > > There are many other ways to prove the contradiction on this hypothesis (e.g. Powers of beings in physical cosmos < those in astral cosmos < those in causal cosmos). > > Your made two additional points that are also invalid. My comments on that is: > > 1. I-ness derived from Ahamkara,Manas and Chitta has no innate power to Control any other idea of the 35 Causal-ideas. > Reason: > Soul is the only Truth and controller, everything else has an unreal and derived existence. Thus, all the 35 ideas co-ordinate with each other, and not control each other. > > 2. A new-born child or a person in Hypnotic-Trance, is able to use his sense-consciousness coherently due to the astral-bodys' sense of I-ness derived from Manas, that coordinates the senses. > He has no Buddhi or discriminating faculty to interact with manas (sensory-motor mind) and tell it what to do - as you have proposed. Thus, Manas co-ordinates the senses due to its own sense of I-ness, not due to Buddhi. > > I hope this clarifies. > > Regards, > Nitish > > , Narasimha PVR Rao <pvr@> wrote: > > > > Namaste, > > > > Out of the 19 or 35 attributes of individualized consciousness, which one gives the idea " I am this " or " I am that " ? Of course, it is ahamkaraka or I-ness or egosense or ego principle! > > > > Is one's idea of " I am this " limited to a physical body? Of course not! If someone says " so and so person is a terrible person " , one may feel offended or if someone says " so and so person is a great person " , one may feel elated. One's ahamkara or I-ness is identifying with the criticism or praise, even though nothing is being done to the physical body and only a name is being used. When somebody calls one by name from distance (as opposed to patting on the physical body and calling), one's consciousness may still think " I am being called " and one may turn towards the caller. As in these examples, one's I-ness does of course bind itself to more than a body. > > > > Suppose one gets a dream while sleeping. One may have forgotten totally about the physical body in the dream! One may think of something else as " I " . In dreams, one may see oneself as a different body or may not even " see " onself, but still one may have the sense that so and so thing is happening to " me " . So, even when the mind is drawn away from the physical body, there is still a notion of " I am this " (I-ness) in a dream. That is ahamkara or I-ness or ego principle. > > > > Your idea that ahamkara is limited to physical body is absolutely unacceptable. Ahamkara or I-ness extends beyond the physical body. > > > > Also, your idea that deities like Agni do not have ahamkara (I-ness) because they do not have physical bodies is incorrect. Of course, Agni does have an I-ness and thinks " I am Agni and this is what I do " . If he did not have that I-ness, he would not do everything he does. > > > > Moreover, the 19 or 35 ideas of individualized consciousness do interact with each other, whether we use the word " control " for some of those interactions or not. For example, buddhi (intellectual/ discriminating mind) judges various past experiences, interacts with manas (sensory-motor mind) and tells it what to do. Then manas interacts with karmendriyas (organs of action) and makes them do various things. My buddhi determined what to write and my manas told my hands to type this and I ended up typing. > > > > Your point about " what exists as a part cannot be the whole " is totally out of place. The sense of I-ness, the memories and conditioning, the logical mind, the sensory-motor mind, karmendriyas etc are all different parts of individualized consciousness and they play different roles while interacting with each other in different ways. Some of those interactions may be deemed to be controls. > > > > > Am not mixing up the terminologies, though my mail didn't > > > go in details. Your understanding is flawed. > > > > > > 2. Where did you read this up ? > > > > One does not " read up " these things in a single place. There are different abstractions and breakdowns of what happens in individualized consciousness. There are several sources that speak of different aspects of this knowledge in slightly different terms. One will assimilate this knowledge better if one reads as many sources as possible and contemplates. > > > > Best regards, > > Narasimha > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- - > > Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ homam > > Do Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ tarpana > > Spirituality: http://groups. / group/vedic- wisdom > > Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro. home.comcast. net > > Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAst rologer.org > > Jyotish writings: http://groups. / group/JyotishWri tings > > Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagan nath.org > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- - > > > > ---- yeeahoo_99 <nitish.arya@ ...> wrote: > > > || OM TAT SAT || > > > Dear Narasimha, > > > Please Ignore my previous-mail, it was not completed - i will try to delete it. > > > > > > Am not mixing up the terminologies, though my mail didn't go in details. Your understanding is flawed. > > > > > > 1. All ideas including the idea of Ahamkara naturally belong to the ideational or causal body, but Ahamkara must be overcome only in the physical body (See point 5.). Astral or Causal-bodied beings (those without a physical/astral body) don't have to fight with the idea of Ahamkara like we do. > > > > > > > Ahamkaara/ego controls manas and buddhi also. When manas (sensory- > > > > ...they are all guided by the sense of I-ness. That sense of I-ness > > > > permeates through all layers of one's individualized consciousness. > > > > > > 2. Where did you read this up ? > > > > > > There is a fine line between the sense of I-ness attributed to the Individual Soul and the sense of I-ness derived through the idea of Ahamkara. Even after a Soul is freed of the three bodies, the individuality of the Soul Atom is not destroyed (Resurrection implies that), while it has already given up the idea of Ahamkara including all other ideas. > > > > > > Individuality of a causal-bodied being is not due to the idea of Ahamkara because " What exists as a part cannot be the whole " . Thus, the idea of Ahamkara, being one of the 35 ideas of the Causal-body, doesn't account for neither controls the rest of the 34 ideas. Each idea is independent of another, without requiring another idea to act upon it - otherwise your buddhi would always interfere with the functioning of Mind or Ahamkara or the 5 functions of life-forces and so on. > > > > > > Essentially, the 35 ideas of causal body are the basic causal forces and are not related as cause-effect to each other. Thus, each is independent of the application of the sense of I-ness derived from Ahamkara. Manas and Buddhi being two of the Causal-ideas, their functioning as well as existence is not " controlled " nor " derived " in any way by the idea of Ahamkara. It is very clear when we see those with sharpest Buddhi or Sharpest Mind still carrying Heaviest Ahamkara, because they didn't work upon that particular idea. > > > > > > > > > > But ego/ahamkaara/ I-ness is the very basis of the entire > > > > individualized consciousness. > > > > > > 3. Well, as most Physical-bodied beings cannot see through the Astral/causal cosmoses, it doesn't apply in the same way to the finer Astral and Causal-bodied beings who can always pierce the veil of Maya and see the human activities. Thus, what is " the very basis " of the entire individualized consciousness for a physical-bodied (unenlightened) being is not the same as for an astral/causal bodied being. > > > An Astral-bodied being thinks of Manas/sense- consciousness as the very basis of the entire individualized consciousness. > > > A Causal-bodied being thinks of Chitta/perceptive- consciousness as the very basis of the entire individualized consciousness. > > > However, that individuality is of the Soul not derived from any idea, which is why it is not lost when the Astral being loses astral consciousness and reincarnates in the Physical body. > > > > > > As an example, Devatas, with their finer bodies, are able to work through all the beings in all their physical-bodies simultaneously (like Ganesh resides in the Mooladhara, Agni digests the food, and so on..), never getting controlled by Ahamkara that would require them to say that this particular body is " my body " or that one is mine - unless they incarnate in Physical bodies themselves. Devatas are, however, Astral/Causal- bodied beings, so they would attempt to influence the Manas (Spirit-Possession) of the sense-bound worshipper. Pretas on the other hand, would attempt to possess ones' physical body as well as act out their Ahamkara. > > > > > > > > > > Out of the four antahkaranas, chitta (remembering or conditioned > > > > mind) and ahamkaara (ego or I-ness) are parts of the kaarana > > > > sareera (causal body) and remain till the end. > > > > > > 4. As per the resurrected Soul of Sri Yukteswar in Autobiography of a Yogi - > > > > > > Causal body is a matrix of 35 ideas, that include 19 ideas comprising Astral body (Chitta, Manas, Buddhi, Ahamkara, 5 functions of knowledge, 5 functions of Action, 5 functions of life-force) and 16 ideas comprising Physical body (16 chemical elements). > > > > > > Now, as we all know that Physical body expires as a whole, not just one or two of the 16 elements comprising it go away at a time, Astral and Causal bodies are also cast off as a whole in the corresponding cosmic consciousness - instead of different constituent ideas slipping out of it at different times. Chitta being the staging idea for all other modifications, can be termed as the last to go, when the causal body is finally dropped - hence I wrote as rising above Chitta. > > > > > > Thus, the idea of Ahamkara is bound with Gross Physical vibrations, > > > Manas with Subtle Astral vibrations and > > > Chitta with infinitely Subtle Causal Vibrations. > > > > > > Buddhi being another variable, can be developed or undeveloped irrespective of the other 34. Even illiterate Moodha, through surrender to their Guru, attain freedom from Ahamkara and so on... > > > > > > BTW, Chitta is not the Conditioned Mind. Chitta does store the residual impressions of all the past incarnations. However, being constituted of Satwa Guna, it doesn't have any inherent ability to act upon (Rajas) those impressions, just like a container containing an inflammable liquid doesn't automatically burn it down. Sadhana is required for That. > > > The Samskaras stored by Chitta, including those of Nidra, Smriti, Vikalpa, Viparyaya, Pramana, correspond to the Tamo Guna, while the Chitta itself is Satva Guna - hence the " Satvic - Tamas " represents the SuperEther tattwa (refer my previous mail). The all-perceiving Satvic Chitta doesn't get conditioned by the Tamo-guni Samskaras it stores. > > > Once the Chitta calms down, cleared of all residual impressions, only Satva Guna remains, the intuition becomes coherent and the Soul reflects on itself as distinct from Satva Guna of Prakriti (Chitta), thus realizing its own nature as Brahman. > > > > > > 5. > > > In Patanjali Yoga Sutras: > > > drigadarshanaktyore katmataivasmita -6 > > > Egoism is the identification of the seer with the instrument of seeing. Patanjali has used Asmita instead of Ahamkara. > > > Since astral-bodied beings can use any of the senses like eyes to see, hear, smell, taste and so on (refer Autobiography of a Yogi)... the sense of egoism does not take roots in the astral-body and hence doesn't create Astral Karma. Similarly, Causal bodied beings can use thought to sense everything. > > > > > > Hence, Egotism has to be rooted out while the consciousness is associated with the Physical Body sensory activities or has Physical Karma. > > > > > > 6. The idea of Manas, as the controller of sense-consciousness , must be overcome in Astral body, through Vairagya. Read autobiography of a Yogi (chapter 43) where Sri Yukteswar illustrates that only those beings who cannot be tempted to go back to the pleasing to the eye Astral cosmos are permitted to stay permanently in the Causal cosmos. Pleasing to the eye implies Sense-consciousness which is associated with Manas. > > > > > > In Patanjali Yoga Sutras also it is mentioned in the same manner : > > > > > > dristanushravika vishaya vitrishnasya vashikara samjnavairagyam -15- > > > > > > That effect which comes to these who have given up their thirst after objects, either seen or heard, and which wills to control the objects, is non-attachment. Vivekananda has commented that Vairagya is the only way to freedom. > > > > > > This is to be accomplished by transferring the consciousness to Astral-Body and working out the Astral Karma or otherwise as an astral-bodied being. > > > > > > 7. Patanjali Yoga Sutras: > > > yogashchittavrittin irodhah -2- > > > Thus, extinguishing all the movements of Chitta is called " Yoga " . > > > > > > This is to be accomplished by transferring the consciousness to Causal-Body and working out the Causal Karma or otherwise as a causal-bodied being. > > > > > > I hope this clarifies. > > > > > > Regards, > > > Nitish > > > > > > , Narasimha PVR Rao <pvr@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Namaste Nitish, > > > > > > > > I am afraid you are mixing up terminologies. For example, ego or ahamkaara (sense of I-ness) is not limited to the physical body, but extends to subtle body and causal body as well. In fact, ego resides in the causal body and affects other bodies. Out of the four antahkaranas, chitta (remembering or conditioned mind) and ahamkaara (ego or I-ness) are parts of the kaarana sareera (causal body) and remain till the end. > > > > > > > > Ahamkaara/ego controls manas and buddhi also. When manas (sensory-motor mind) observes sensory inputs or buddhi (intellectual or thinking mind) analyzes current and past observations of mind or chitta (remembering or conditioned mind) stores various observations or retrieves previously stored observations, they are all guided by the sense of I-ness. That sense of I-ness permeates through all layers of one's individualized consciousness. > > > > > > > > Upanishads and various scriptures have broken down the individualized consciousness into various groups by functionality, like five koshas, three sareeras, five praanas, five jnaanendriyas, five karmendriyas, four antahkaranas, six/seven chakras etc. But ego/ahamkaara/ I-ness is the very basis of the entire individualized consciousness. > > > > > > > > Though the word jnaana means different things to different people, a jnaana yogi pursues Self by the path of contemplation and discrimination. When a jnaana yogi reaches the final target, all bodies and koshas are merged in cosmos. > > > > > > > > Best regards, > > > > Narasimha > > > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- - > > > > Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ homam > > > > Do Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ tarpana > > > > Spirituality: http://groups. / group/vedic- wisdom > > > > Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro. home.comcast. net > > > > Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAst rologer.org > > > > Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagan nath.org > > > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- - > > > > > > > > ---- yeeahoo_99 <nitish.arya@ > wrote: > > > > > || OM TAT SAT || > > > > > Dear Narasimha, > > > > > In my opinion, there are three distinct phases that lead the sould to rise above Ego, Mind and Chitta - corresponding to the three bodies physical (Sthoola), astral (Sookshma) and causal (Karana) resp. > > > > > > > > > > Rising above Ego is Jnana - Merging Physical body in Physical cosmos > > > > > Rising above Mind is Vairagya - Merging Astral body in Astral cosmos > > > > > Rising above Chitta is Yoga - Merging Causal body in Causal cosmos > > > > > > > > > > Finally, becoming established in Para-Brahman is YogaArudha. > > > > > > > > > > Your comments. > > > > > Regards, > > > > > Nitish > > > > > > > > > > , " Narasimha P.V.R. Rao " <pvr@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Namaste, > > > > > > > > > > > > Gyaani or jnaani is a wise and learned person, who may or may not debate (or even engage) with others. One may become a gyaani using either gyaana yoga or bhakti yoga or karma yoga or raaja yoga. > > > > > > > > > > > > Gyaana/jnaana yoga is a path of pursuing the Supreme through intellectual analysis. One pursuing that path may or may not debate with others and may or may not read many scriptures, but one will analyze and debate within oneself. One starts with the basic axioms (e.g. Self is imperishable and without a beginning or an end). One will go on eliminating things that one is aware of as not being Self. For example, body has a beginning and end and is perishable. So it is not Self. One introspects like this and, though the process of elimination, finally finds the true Self. That is gyaana yoga. Pure gyaana yoga is very difficult to follow in this age. > > > > > > > > > > > > Vichaara (contemplation) is the process of sadhana for an adherer of pure gyaana yoga. > > > > > > > > > > > > However, the gyaana (knowledge of Self) achieved by such a person at the end is not really different from the knowledge of Self achieved by a person following another path. > > > > > > > > > > > > Best regards, > > > > > > Narasimha > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Try the new India Homepage. http://in./trynew > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 4, 2009 Report Share Posted October 4, 2009 || OM TAT SAT || Dear Utpalji and Narasimha, If any of you is offended due to my being explicit with words - it also shows that you people have a lot of scope in learning of new ideas! > The second statement says something radical. Ahamkaara and I Ness > is completely two different identity. > your second statment is a departure from almost every Gnyaani has > to say. It is none of my fault that this conflict arose and continues. Here is the reason. In my first mail (#2704) itself it is explicitly written, that Patanjali has used the exact word " asmita " for Egoism - which is the I-ness (Ahamkara) in Physical body consciousness - that causes identification of the seer with the instrument of seeing i.e. Physical senses. > In Patanjali Yoga Sutras: > drigadarshanaktyorekatmataivasmita -6 > Egoism is the identification of the seer with the instrument of > seeing. >>> Patanjali has used Asmita instead of Ahamkara. PATANJALI has not used the word AHAMKARA anywhere in his PRECISE AND ESTEEMED sanskrit dissertation on YOGA - he has chosen to use the word ASMITA everywhere. E.g. 1. vitarka vicharanandasmita rupanugamat samprajnatah - SASMITA SAMADHI 2. From Lahiri Mahasayas' Commentary on Patanjali - avidyasmitaragadveshabhinibeshah panchakleshah " Avidya " [ignorance], " asmita " [egotism], " raga " [attraction or liking], " dvesha " [hatred or disliking] and " abhinibesha " [engrossment] -- these are the five types of afflictions. Thus, using " Ahamkara " while talking about Sankhya and using " Asmita " while talking about Patanjali Sutras brought in the conflict. In any case, what is called as Ahamkara in 24 principles of Sankhya is actually Asmita, which can be very-loosely pitted as Ahamkara. The idea stated by me was on firm grounds - with reference to Patanjali Sutras and the words of Sri Yukteswar in Autobiography of a Yogi. And this idea is there in my first mail, though not the exact table: PHYSICAL I-NESS (AHAMKARA) = ASMITA = Physical Egotism ASTRAL I-NESS (AHAMKARA) = MANAS = Astral attachments CAUSAL I-NESS (AHAMKARA) = CHITTA = Causal Perceptions Also, one of the 2 reasons that I had given on why Astral/Causal Body beings don't have sense of Asmita as a dominant sense of I-ness is this: > Since astral-bodied beings can use any of the senses like eyes to > see, hear, smell, taste and so on (refer Autobiography of a > Yogi)... the sense of egoism does not take roots in the astral-body > and hence doesn't create Astral Karma. > Similarly, Causal bodied beings can use thought to sense everything. > Hence, Egotism has to be rooted out while the consciousness is > associated with the Physical Body sensory activities or has > Physical Karma. Lastly, extending upon this idea further, there are beings in the Astral cosmos who have never been in Physical forms - We Physical beings are not the only ones in the cycles of creation. While they will still have the idea of " Asmita " in their causal bodies, but they will always be repelled by the grosser-vibrations of Sensual experiences in Physical Bodies/Cosmos, and hence would not incur any Physical Karma due to " Asmita " . -------------------------------- [ TO ALL IN THE LIST ] - If the above explanation resolves the issue, well and good. Whether it does or doesn't, this is my last mail on this topic because I had said all I had to in the first mail itself - whether you read it or missed it. You may read a detailed article on this topic that I will write as and when time allows me to do so. [ TO UTPALJI ] - Am not a jnani. But there are Jnanis, who know that 6th tattwa doesn't exist. That is why there is a significant departure. [ TO NARASIMHA ] > So you are accepting that there as " I-ness of manas " and " I-ness of > chitta " . I-ness=aham-kaara. There was never a time that I didn't, and I have no control over what meaning you derive from my words. > I still think this is a case of a Pascal language programmer > unfamiliar with C language misunderstanding some software written > in C language and passing comments. But unfortunately that > programmer seems to be hasty in using labels like " flawed " , > " incorrect " , " incoherent " etc about other programmers whose > language he is unable to understand. The power of mind needs no language to express itself...If a Programmer just understands this much, he will become the Architect! Also, while a Programmer always assumes that every other person he encounters is a Programmer, an Architect knows that every other person is an Architect in making. Hope you become an Architect one day! Regards, Nitish , " vedic_pathak " <vedic_pathak wrote: > > Namaste Nitish ji, > > >Ahamkara is an idea in Causal-body, so it is present all the time >till the > >soul is freed of the three body containers. > > > > " Ahamkara isn't the dominant cause of I-ness in Astral/Causal >bodies " > > I am not getting your point here. you agree in the above given first statement that Ahamkaara is an Idea present in all three bodies and remains TILL the soul is freed from all the three containers. > > The second statement says something radical. Ahamkaara and I Ness is completely two different identity. > > your second statment is a departure from almost every Gnyaani has to say. > > I pray...you please clarify your understanding of Ahamkaara and I Ness. > > looking forward to explanation of the above. > > Thanks & Regards, > > Utpal > > > > , " yeeahoo_99 " <nitish.arya@> wrote: > > > > || OM TAT SAT || > > Namaskar Rajarshi, > > > > Thanks for your contribution - all you have done is to prove what is already known. > > > > > Therefore, Ahamkara exists even in beyond the death for a normal > > > human being. Therewfore, Ahamkara is present in the astral/casual > > > plane as well. > > > > 1. Do you realize what is being talked about and what you have ended up proving ? Wherein did I deny that Ahamkara is not present in Astral/Causal bodies ? > > > > Ahamkara is an idea in Causal-body, so it is present all the time till the soul is freed of the three body containers. > > > > 2. OTOH, What I have stated, with reference to Patanjali Sutras, is that Ahamkara is " SUPPRESSED " in Astral and Causal bodies. Meaning > > > > " Ahamkara isn't the dominant cause of I-ness in Astral/Causal bodies " > > > > And as a result wouldn't contribute to the acquisition of Astral/Causal Karma. > > > > Why is Ahamkara not dominant in Astral/Causal bodies ? > > The reason I have already given in the first mail in sufficient detail. > > > > IF THE AHAMKARA IS NOT SUPPRESSED AFTER PHYSICAL DEATH, THE PERSON WILL KEEP CARRYING THE SAME EARTHLY IDENTITY TO THE ASTRAL PLANES, AND BRING IT BACK AT REBIRTH TO THE EARTH. AND THEN, HE WILL RECLAIM HIS LOST TERRITORY AND WEALTH - THE CONFLICTS THAT WILL ARISE WILL BE BEYOND ANYBODY'S CONTROL. > > THUS, THE BEAUTIFUL ASTRAL SPHERE ARE SENSED BY THE I-NESS OF MANAS, while CAUSAL SPHERE ARE SENSED BY THE I-NESS OF CHITTA. > > > > Please read more of " Sri Sri Paramahansa Yogananda " , he has mentioned about all these things (what happens to a soul at death and so on) in such a simplistic manner in his Gita commentaries, that even a layman can understand it. > > > > Regards, > > Nitish > > > > , rajarshi nandy <rajarshi14@> wrote: > > > > > > Namaste > > > > > > Proof by Contradiction > > > A person who lives as a farmer, should, after death, remain a farmer in the astral cosmos, and after subsequent astral death, should be reborn as the same farmer with the same name and same identity as in his previous earthly incarnation. > > > > > > Wrong example. > > > > > > A person after his death, depending on his tendencies in this life and level of spiritual evolution will retain some aspects of his personality, which means a person who loves music intensely will also in his next birth have an affinity for music. The conditions of the birth and inbetween period depends both on his inherent samaskaras as well the karmic repurcussion. It not, never, entirely once choice. It a mix and match between what one wants and what one deserves. IN all cases, to be able to retain the samskara Ahamakara is needed. Therefore, Ahamkara exists even in beyond the death for a normal human being. Therewfore, Ahamkara is present in the astral/casual plane as well. > > > > > > > > > Corollary #1: > > > A Devata as an Astral-being has I-ness due to his Manas, and doesn't have Ahamkara for the work done by him in all the various physical bodies. > > > > > > > > > This example becomse invalid since the analysis of the first example itself in incorrect. > > > > > > -Regards > > > Rajarshi > > > > > > > > > > > > The upsurge (of consciousness) is Bhairava - Shiva Sutra > > > > > > --- On Sun, 4/10/09, yeeahoo_99 <nitish.arya@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > yeeahoo_99 <nitish.arya@> > > > Re: Gyan Marga > > > > > > Sunday, 4 October, 2009, 9:40 AM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > || OM TAT SAT || > > > Dear Narasimha and Sundeep, > > > > > > Thanks for your feedback. I thought, I had written a quite clear and explicit mail, but your reply has proved that it needs to be put down in at least 10-fold simpler words. > > > > > > You read my mail, but picked up notions in an incorrect, incoherent manner, and are reading beyond what is written in my mail. > > > > > > To prove my point, I would ask Sundeep to read my previous mail on " Gyan Marg " followed by your reply and see if he also picks up the notions in the same manner as you did ? > > > > > > The only addition required is an example: > > > > > > Your hypothesis > > > Ahamkara is the only I-ness there is for all the beings in all the 3 cosmoses i.e. all the Physical, Astral and Causal-bodied beings. > > > > > > Proof by Contradiction > > > A person who lives as a farmer, should, after death, remain a farmer in the astral cosmos, and after subsequent astral death, should be reborn as the same farmer with the same name and same identity as in his previous earthly incarnation. > > > This is not the case, people don't even remember what they were in previous birth, and start their life afresh in a new earthly body > > > => Contradiction > > > => the original hypothesis is wrong > > > => Ahamkara is not the only sense of I-ness applicable to all beings in all the 3 cosmoses. > > > > > > Inference #1: > > > => Ahamkara is dominant sense of I-ness in Physical Cosmos. > > > => Manas is dominant sense of I-ness in Astral Cosmos. > > > => Chitta is dominant sense of I-ness in Causal Cosmos. > > > > > > Corollary #1: > > > A Devata as an Astral-being has I-ness due to his Manas, and doesn't have Ahamkara for the work done by him in all the various physical bodies. > > > > > > Inference #1 and Corollary #1 is what I had written in my previous mail on this topic. > > > > > > There are many other ways to prove the contradiction on this hypothesis (e.g. Powers of beings in physical cosmos < those in astral cosmos < those in causal cosmos). > > > > > > Your made two additional points that are also invalid. My comments on that is: > > > > > > 1. I-ness derived from Ahamkara,Manas and Chitta has no innate power to Control any other idea of the 35 Causal-ideas. > > > Reason: > > > Soul is the only Truth and controller, everything else has an unreal and derived existence. Thus, all the 35 ideas co-ordinate with each other, and not control each other. > > > > > > 2. A new-born child or a person in Hypnotic-Trance, is able to use his sense-consciousness coherently due to the astral-bodys' sense of I-ness derived from Manas, that coordinates the senses. > > > He has no Buddhi or discriminating faculty to interact with manas (sensory-motor mind) and tell it what to do - as you have proposed. Thus, Manas co-ordinates the senses due to its own sense of I-ness, not due to Buddhi. > > > > > > I hope this clarifies. > > > > > > Regards, > > > Nitish > > > > > > , Narasimha PVR Rao <pvr@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Namaste, > > > > > > > > Out of the 19 or 35 attributes of individualized consciousness, which one gives the idea " I am this " or " I am that " ? Of course, it is ahamkaraka or I-ness or egosense or ego principle! > > > > > > > > Is one's idea of " I am this " limited to a physical body? Of course not! If someone says " so and so person is a terrible person " , one may feel offended or if someone says " so and so person is a great person " , one may feel elated. One's ahamkara or I-ness is identifying with the criticism or praise, even though nothing is being done to the physical body and only a name is being used. When somebody calls one by name from distance (as opposed to patting on the physical body and calling), one's consciousness may still think " I am being called " and one may turn towards the caller. As in these examples, one's I-ness does of course bind itself to more than a body. > > > > > > > > Suppose one gets a dream while sleeping. One may have forgotten totally about the physical body in the dream! One may think of something else as " I " . In dreams, one may see oneself as a different body or may not even " see " onself, but still one may have the sense that so and so thing is happening to " me " . So, even when the mind is drawn away from the physical body, there is still a notion of " I am this " (I-ness) in a dream. That is ahamkara or I-ness or ego principle. > > > > > > > > Your idea that ahamkara is limited to physical body is absolutely unacceptable. Ahamkara or I-ness extends beyond the physical body. > > > > > > > > Also, your idea that deities like Agni do not have ahamkara (I-ness) because they do not have physical bodies is incorrect. Of course, Agni does have an I-ness and thinks " I am Agni and this is what I do " . If he did not have that I-ness, he would not do everything he does. > > > > > > > > Moreover, the 19 or 35 ideas of individualized consciousness do interact with each other, whether we use the word " control " for some of those interactions or not. For example, buddhi (intellectual/ discriminating mind) judges various past experiences, interacts with manas (sensory-motor mind) and tells it what to do. Then manas interacts with karmendriyas (organs of action) and makes them do various things. My buddhi determined what to write and my manas told my hands to type this and I ended up typing. > > > > > > > > Your point about " what exists as a part cannot be the whole " is totally out of place. The sense of I-ness, the memories and conditioning, the logical mind, the sensory-motor mind, karmendriyas etc are all different parts of individualized consciousness and they play different roles while interacting with each other in different ways. Some of those interactions may be deemed to be controls. > > > > > > > > > Am not mixing up the terminologies, though my mail didn't > > > > > go in details. Your understanding is flawed. > > > > > > > > > > 2. Where did you read this up ? > > > > > > > > One does not " read up " these things in a single place. There are different abstractions and breakdowns of what happens in individualized consciousness. There are several sources that speak of different aspects of this knowledge in slightly different terms. One will assimilate this knowledge better if one reads as many sources as possible and contemplates. > > > > > > > > Best regards, > > > > Narasimha > > > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- - > > > > Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ homam > > > > Do Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ tarpana > > > > Spirituality: http://groups. / group/vedic- wisdom > > > > Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro. home.comcast. net > > > > Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAst rologer.org > > > > Jyotish writings: http://groups. / group/JyotishWri tings > > > > Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagan nath.org > > > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- - > > > > > > > > ---- yeeahoo_99 <nitish.arya@ ...> wrote: > > > > > || OM TAT SAT || > > > > > Dear Narasimha, > > > > > Please Ignore my previous-mail, it was not completed - i will try to delete it. > > > > > > > > > > Am not mixing up the terminologies, though my mail didn't go in details. Your understanding is flawed. > > > > > > > > > > 1. All ideas including the idea of Ahamkara naturally belong to the ideational or causal body, but Ahamkara must be overcome only in the physical body (See point 5.). Astral or Causal-bodied beings (those without a physical/astral body) don't have to fight with the idea of Ahamkara like we do. > > > > > > > > > > > Ahamkaara/ego controls manas and buddhi also. When manas (sensory- > > > > > > ...they are all guided by the sense of I-ness. That sense of I-ness > > > > > > permeates through all layers of one's individualized consciousness. > > > > > > > > > > 2. Where did you read this up ? > > > > > > > > > > There is a fine line between the sense of I-ness attributed to the Individual Soul and the sense of I-ness derived through the idea of Ahamkara. Even after a Soul is freed of the three bodies, the individuality of the Soul Atom is not destroyed (Resurrection implies that), while it has already given up the idea of Ahamkara including all other ideas. > > > > > > > > > > Individuality of a causal-bodied being is not due to the idea of Ahamkara because " What exists as a part cannot be the whole " . Thus, the idea of Ahamkara, being one of the 35 ideas of the Causal-body, doesn't account for neither controls the rest of the 34 ideas. Each idea is independent of another, without requiring another idea to act upon it - otherwise your buddhi would always interfere with the functioning of Mind or Ahamkara or the 5 functions of life-forces and so on. > > > > > > > > > > Essentially, the 35 ideas of causal body are the basic causal forces and are not related as cause-effect to each other. Thus, each is independent of the application of the sense of I-ness derived from Ahamkara. Manas and Buddhi being two of the Causal-ideas, their functioning as well as existence is not " controlled " nor " derived " in any way by the idea of Ahamkara. It is very clear when we see those with sharpest Buddhi or Sharpest Mind still carrying Heaviest Ahamkara, because they didn't work upon that particular idea. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But ego/ahamkaara/ I-ness is the very basis of the entire > > > > > > individualized consciousness. > > > > > > > > > > 3. Well, as most Physical-bodied beings cannot see through the Astral/causal cosmoses, it doesn't apply in the same way to the finer Astral and Causal-bodied beings who can always pierce the veil of Maya and see the human activities. Thus, what is " the very basis " of the entire individualized consciousness for a physical-bodied (unenlightened) being is not the same as for an astral/causal bodied being. > > > > > An Astral-bodied being thinks of Manas/sense- consciousness as the very basis of the entire individualized consciousness. > > > > > A Causal-bodied being thinks of Chitta/perceptive- consciousness as the very basis of the entire individualized consciousness. > > > > > However, that individuality is of the Soul not derived from any idea, which is why it is not lost when the Astral being loses astral consciousness and reincarnates in the Physical body. > > > > > > > > > > As an example, Devatas, with their finer bodies, are able to work through all the beings in all their physical-bodies simultaneously (like Ganesh resides in the Mooladhara, Agni digests the food, and so on..), never getting controlled by Ahamkara that would require them to say that this particular body is " my body " or that one is mine - unless they incarnate in Physical bodies themselves. Devatas are, however, Astral/Causal- bodied beings, so they would attempt to influence the Manas (Spirit-Possession) of the sense-bound worshipper. Pretas on the other hand, would attempt to possess ones' physical body as well as act out their Ahamkara. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Out of the four antahkaranas, chitta (remembering or conditioned > > > > > > mind) and ahamkaara (ego or I-ness) are parts of the kaarana > > > > > > sareera (causal body) and remain till the end. > > > > > > > > > > 4. As per the resurrected Soul of Sri Yukteswar in Autobiography of a Yogi - > > > > > > > > > > Causal body is a matrix of 35 ideas, that include 19 ideas comprising Astral body (Chitta, Manas, Buddhi, Ahamkara, 5 functions of knowledge, 5 functions of Action, 5 functions of life-force) and 16 ideas comprising Physical body (16 chemical elements). > > > > > > > > > > Now, as we all know that Physical body expires as a whole, not just one or two of the 16 elements comprising it go away at a time, Astral and Causal bodies are also cast off as a whole in the corresponding cosmic consciousness - instead of different constituent ideas slipping out of it at different times. Chitta being the staging idea for all other modifications, can be termed as the last to go, when the causal body is finally dropped - hence I wrote as rising above Chitta. > > > > > > > > > > Thus, the idea of Ahamkara is bound with Gross Physical vibrations, > > > > > Manas with Subtle Astral vibrations and > > > > > Chitta with infinitely Subtle Causal Vibrations. > > > > > > > > > > Buddhi being another variable, can be developed or undeveloped irrespective of the other 34. Even illiterate Moodha, through surrender to their Guru, attain freedom from Ahamkara and so on... > > > > > > > > > > BTW, Chitta is not the Conditioned Mind. Chitta does store the residual impressions of all the past incarnations. However, being constituted of Satwa Guna, it doesn't have any inherent ability to act upon (Rajas) those impressions, just like a container containing an inflammable liquid doesn't automatically burn it down. Sadhana is required for That. > > > > > The Samskaras stored by Chitta, including those of Nidra, Smriti, Vikalpa, Viparyaya, Pramana, correspond to the Tamo Guna, while the Chitta itself is Satva Guna - hence the " Satvic - Tamas " represents the SuperEther tattwa (refer my previous mail). The all-perceiving Satvic Chitta doesn't get conditioned by the Tamo-guni Samskaras it stores. > > > > > Once the Chitta calms down, cleared of all residual impressions, only Satva Guna remains, the intuition becomes coherent and the Soul reflects on itself as distinct from Satva Guna of Prakriti (Chitta), thus realizing its own nature as Brahman. > > > > > > > > > > 5. > > > > > In Patanjali Yoga Sutras: > > > > > drigadarshanaktyore katmataivasmita -6 > > > > > Egoism is the identification of the seer with the instrument of seeing. Patanjali has used Asmita instead of Ahamkara. > > > > > Since astral-bodied beings can use any of the senses like eyes to see, hear, smell, taste and so on (refer Autobiography of a Yogi)... the sense of egoism does not take roots in the astral-body and hence doesn't create Astral Karma. Similarly, Causal bodied beings can use thought to sense everything. > > > > > > > > > > Hence, Egotism has to be rooted out while the consciousness is associated with the Physical Body sensory activities or has Physical Karma. > > > > > > > > > > 6. The idea of Manas, as the controller of sense-consciousness , must be overcome in Astral body, through Vairagya. Read autobiography of a Yogi (chapter 43) where Sri Yukteswar illustrates that only those beings who cannot be tempted to go back to the pleasing to the eye Astral cosmos are permitted to stay permanently in the Causal cosmos. Pleasing to the eye implies Sense-consciousness which is associated with Manas. > > > > > > > > > > In Patanjali Yoga Sutras also it is mentioned in the same manner : > > > > > > > > > > dristanushravika vishaya vitrishnasya vashikara samjnavairagyam -15- > > > > > > > > > > That effect which comes to these who have given up their thirst after objects, either seen or heard, and which wills to control the objects, is non-attachment. Vivekananda has commented that Vairagya is the only way to freedom. > > > > > > > > > > This is to be accomplished by transferring the consciousness to Astral-Body and working out the Astral Karma or otherwise as an astral-bodied being. > > > > > > > > > > 7. Patanjali Yoga Sutras: > > > > > yogashchittavrittin irodhah -2- > > > > > Thus, extinguishing all the movements of Chitta is called " Yoga " . > > > > > > > > > > This is to be accomplished by transferring the consciousness to Causal-Body and working out the Causal Karma or otherwise as a causal-bodied being. > > > > > > > > > > I hope this clarifies. > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > Nitish > > > > > > > > > > , Narasimha PVR Rao <pvr@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Namaste Nitish, > > > > > > > > > > > > I am afraid you are mixing up terminologies. For example, ego or ahamkaara (sense of I-ness) is not limited to the physical body, but extends to subtle body and causal body as well. In fact, ego resides in the causal body and affects other bodies. Out of the four antahkaranas, chitta (remembering or conditioned mind) and ahamkaara (ego or I-ness) are parts of the kaarana sareera (causal body) and remain till the end. > > > > > > > > > > > > Ahamkaara/ego controls manas and buddhi also. When manas (sensory-motor mind) observes sensory inputs or buddhi (intellectual or thinking mind) analyzes current and past observations of mind or chitta (remembering or conditioned mind) stores various observations or retrieves previously stored observations, they are all guided by the sense of I-ness. That sense of I-ness permeates through all layers of one's individualized consciousness. > > > > > > > > > > > > Upanishads and various scriptures have broken down the individualized consciousness into various groups by functionality, like five koshas, three sareeras, five praanas, five jnaanendriyas, five karmendriyas, four antahkaranas, six/seven chakras etc. But ego/ahamkaara/ I-ness is the very basis of the entire individualized consciousness. > > > > > > > > > > > > Though the word jnaana means different things to different people, a jnaana yogi pursues Self by the path of contemplation and discrimination. When a jnaana yogi reaches the final target, all bodies and koshas are merged in cosmos. > > > > > > > > > > > > Best regards, > > > > > > Narasimha > > > > > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- - > > > > > > Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ homam > > > > > > Do Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ tarpana > > > > > > Spirituality: http://groups. / group/vedic- wisdom > > > > > > Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro. home.comcast. net > > > > > > Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAst rologer.org > > > > > > Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagan nath.org > > > > > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- - > > > > > > > > > > > > ---- yeeahoo_99 <nitish.arya@ > wrote: > > > > > > > || OM TAT SAT || > > > > > > > Dear Narasimha, > > > > > > > In my opinion, there are three distinct phases that lead the sould to rise above Ego, Mind and Chitta - corresponding to the three bodies physical (Sthoola), astral (Sookshma) and causal (Karana) resp. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Rising above Ego is Jnana - Merging Physical body in Physical cosmos > > > > > > > Rising above Mind is Vairagya - Merging Astral body in Astral cosmos > > > > > > > Rising above Chitta is Yoga - Merging Causal body in Causal cosmos > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Finally, becoming established in Para-Brahman is YogaArudha. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Your comments. > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > Nitish > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , " Narasimha P.V.R. Rao " <pvr@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Namaste, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Gyaani or jnaani is a wise and learned person, who may or may not debate (or even engage) with others. One may become a gyaani using either gyaana yoga or bhakti yoga or karma yoga or raaja yoga. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Gyaana/jnaana yoga is a path of pursuing the Supreme through intellectual analysis. One pursuing that path may or may not debate with others and may or may not read many scriptures, but one will analyze and debate within oneself. One starts with the basic axioms (e.g. Self is imperishable and without a beginning or an end). One will go on eliminating things that one is aware of as not being Self. For example, body has a beginning and end and is perishable. So it is not Self. One introspects like this and, though the process of elimination, finally finds the true Self. That is gyaana yoga. Pure gyaana yoga is very difficult to follow in this age. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Vichaara (contemplation) is the process of sadhana for an adherer of pure gyaana yoga. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > However, the gyaana (knowledge of Self) achieved by such a person at the end is not really different from the knowledge of Self achieved by a person following another path. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Best regards, > > > > > > > > Narasimha > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Try the new India Homepage. http://in./trynew > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 4, 2009 Report Share Posted October 4, 2009 || OM TAT SAT || Namaskar Krishnendu, > I am a layman and probably much younger then you of 27 yrs with not > such deep knowledge like you but i believe that God is everything > and every causation to my problems(though I think them purification > kriyas of the soul) and happiness(attachment kriyas of the soul) in > this drama called life. Well, you are 2 years younger to me. You misunderstand the path of knowledge. What you think is deep knowledge was acquired, when I thought of writing an answer to Narasimhas' mail on " Gyan Marg " . It is not even a week old! > What is your aim through this long discussion.Is it that you are > commited in proving Narasimhaji wrong which is your afterall aim.If > that is so what is your gain in it. Do you think that the knowledge of " my intention for discussion " , will help you reach God faster ? Are you sure, this is what you really want to know ? > For as far as I can understand these knowledge will not take you > to God . But, then you don't know everything. Right. > Whats the point in discussing them now when after we reach God > we will know everything. Probably, You have not seen another person suffer because you didn't know something. > Friend is not we taking the opposite way- Patanjali,Yogananda and > all the seers and Mahapurushas that we have mentioned in this > thread have spoken what we now read after they had realised God.But > we are discussing these things before realising God. How to find out what is opposite way ? How do you know that all these Patanjali etc. didn't discuss these things before and after they attained God-realization ? > If you had my friend realised God even if you said wrong in this > forum everyone would have accepted it to be right because not of > the knowledge but because of HIS blessings. How many times has Gods' blessings done this kind of a thing for you that you are so sure of it being a criteria for assessing another persons' level of God-realization ? > Dont take whatever I said in some other way .Just was thinking > where this long discussion was going and so spoke my mind out. > Pardon me if I hurt anyones feelings. And what have you said anyways ? Long discussions are circular, they don't go anywhere . You are Pardoned! Addendum - 1. God-Realization means different things to different people. 2. For some, it is the be-all and end-all of all their lifes' pursuits, for others it is the beginning. 3. If God gives me a better work, I might't be writing mails. Regards, Nitish , krish chaudhuri <krishnenduchdhr wrote: > > Respected Nitishji, > I am a layman and probably much younger then you of 27 yrs with not such > deep knowledge like you but i believe that God is everything and every > causation to my problems(though I think them purification kriyas of the > soul) and happiness(attachment kriyas of the soul) in this drama called > life.But I cant control my curiosity from asking: > > What is your aim through this long discussion.Is it that you are commited in > proving Narasimhaji wrong which is your afterall aim.If that is so what is > your gain in it.For as far as I can understand these knowledge will not take > you to God .Whats the point in discussing them now when after we reach God > we will know everything. > Friend is not we taking the opposite way- Patanjali,Yogananda and all the > seers and Mahapurushas that we have mentioned in this thread have spoken > what we now read after they had realised God.But we are discussing these > things before realising God.If you had my friend realised God even if you > said wrong in this forum everyone would have accepted it to be right because > not of the knowledge but because of HIS blessings.Dont take whatever I said > in some other way .Just was thinking where this long discussion was going > and so spoke my mind out. > Pardon me if I hurt anyones feelings. > Thanking you. > > On Sun, Oct 4, 2009 at 4:45 PM, yeeahoo_99 <nitish.arya wrote: > > > > > > > || OM TAT SAT || > > Namaskar Rajarshi, > > > > Thanks for your contribution - all you have done is to prove what is > > already known. > > > > > > > Therefore, Ahamkara exists even in beyond the death for a normal > > > human being. Therewfore, Ahamkara is present in the astral/casual > > > plane as well. > > > > 1. Do you realize what is being talked about and what you have ended up > > proving ? Wherein did I deny that Ahamkara is not present in Astral/Causal > > bodies ? > > > > Ahamkara is an idea in Causal-body, so it is present all the time till the > > soul is freed of the three body containers. > > > > 2. OTOH, What I have stated, with reference to Patanjali Sutras, is that > > Ahamkara is " SUPPRESSED " in Astral and Causal bodies. Meaning > > > > " Ahamkara isn't the dominant cause of I-ness in Astral/Causal bodies " > > > > And as a result wouldn't contribute to the acquisition of Astral/Causal > > Karma. > > > > Why is Ahamkara not dominant in Astral/Causal bodies ? > > The reason I have already given in the first mail in sufficient detail. > > > > IF THE AHAMKARA IS NOT SUPPRESSED AFTER PHYSICAL DEATH, THE PERSON WILL > > KEEP CARRYING THE SAME EARTHLY IDENTITY TO THE ASTRAL PLANES, AND BRING IT > > BACK AT REBIRTH TO THE EARTH. AND THEN, HE WILL RECLAIM HIS LOST TERRITORY > > AND WEALTH - THE CONFLICTS THAT WILL ARISE WILL BE BEYOND ANYBODY'S CONTROL. > > > > THUS, THE BEAUTIFUL ASTRAL SPHERE ARE SENSED BY THE I-NESS OF MANAS, while > > CAUSAL SPHERE ARE SENSED BY THE I-NESS OF CHITTA. > > > > Please read more of " Sri Sri Paramahansa Yogananda " , he has mentioned about > > all these things (what happens to a soul at death and so on) in such a > > simplistic manner in his Gita commentaries, that even a layman can > > understand it. > > > > Regards, > > Nitish > > > > <%40>, > > rajarshi nandy <rajarshi14@> wrote: > > > > > > Namaste > > > > > > Proof by Contradiction > > > A person who lives as a farmer, should, after death, remain a farmer in > > the astral cosmos, and after subsequent astral death, should be reborn as > > the same farmer with the same name and same identity as in his previous > > earthly incarnation. > > > > > > Wrong example. > > > > > > A person after his death, depending on his tendencies in this life and > > level of spiritual evolution will retain some aspects of his personality, > > which means a person who loves music intensely will also in his next birth > > have an affinity for music. The conditions of the birth and inbetween period > > depends both on his inherent samaskaras as well the karmic repurcussion. It > > not, never, entirely once choice. It a mix and match between what one wants > > and what one deserves. IN all cases, to be able to retain the samskara > > Ahamakara is needed. Therefore, Ahamkara exists even in beyond the death for > > a normal human being. Therewfore, Ahamkara is present in the astral/casual > > plane as well. > > > > > > > > > Corollary #1: > > > A Devata as an Astral-being has I-ness due to his Manas, and doesn't have > > Ahamkara for the work done by him in all the various physical bodies. > > > > > > > > > This example becomse invalid since the analysis of the first example > > itself in incorrect. > > > > > > -Regards > > > Rajarshi > > > > > > > > > > > > The upsurge (of consciousness) is Bhairava - Shiva Sutra > > > > > > --- On Sun, 4/10/09, yeeahoo_99 <nitish.arya@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > yeeahoo_99 <nitish.arya@> > > > > > Re: Gyan Marga > > > <%40> > > > Sunday, 4 October, 2009, 9:40 AM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > || OM TAT SAT || > > > Dear Narasimha and Sundeep, > > > > > > Thanks for your feedback. I thought, I had written a quite clear and > > explicit mail, but your reply has proved that it needs to be put down in at > > least 10-fold simpler words. > > > > > > You read my mail, but picked up notions in an incorrect, incoherent > > manner, and are reading beyond what is written in my mail. > > > > > > To prove my point, I would ask Sundeep to read my previous mail on " Gyan > > Marg " followed by your reply and see if he also picks up the notions in the > > same manner as you did ? > > > > > > The only addition required is an example: > > > > > > Your hypothesis > > > Ahamkara is the only I-ness there is for all the beings in all the 3 > > cosmoses i.e. all the Physical, Astral and Causal-bodied beings. > > > > > > Proof by Contradiction > > > A person who lives as a farmer, should, after death, remain a farmer in > > the astral cosmos, and after subsequent astral death, should be reborn as > > the same farmer with the same name and same identity as in his previous > > earthly incarnation. > > > This is not the case, people don't even remember what they were in > > previous birth, and start their life afresh in a new earthly body > > > => Contradiction > > > => the original hypothesis is wrong > > > => Ahamkara is not the only sense of I-ness applicable to all beings in > > all the 3 cosmoses. > > > > > > Inference #1: > > > => Ahamkara is dominant sense of I-ness in Physical Cosmos. > > > => Manas is dominant sense of I-ness in Astral Cosmos. > > > => Chitta is dominant sense of I-ness in Causal Cosmos. > > > > > > Corollary #1: > > > A Devata as an Astral-being has I-ness due to his Manas, and doesn't have > > Ahamkara for the work done by him in all the various physical bodies. > > > > > > Inference #1 and Corollary #1 is what I had written in my previous mail > > on this topic. > > > > > > There are many other ways to prove the contradiction on this hypothesis > > (e.g. Powers of beings in physical cosmos < those in astral cosmos < those > > in causal cosmos). > > > > > > Your made two additional points that are also invalid. My comments on > > that is: > > > > > > 1. I-ness derived from Ahamkara,Manas and Chitta has no innate power to > > Control any other idea of the 35 Causal-ideas. > > > Reason: > > > Soul is the only Truth and controller, everything else has an unreal and > > derived existence. Thus, all the 35 ideas co-ordinate with each other, and > > not control each other. > > > > > > 2. A new-born child or a person in Hypnotic-Trance, is able to use his > > sense-consciousness coherently due to the astral-bodys' sense of I-ness > > derived from Manas, that coordinates the senses. > > > He has no Buddhi or discriminating faculty to interact with manas > > (sensory-motor mind) and tell it what to do - as you have proposed. Thus, > > Manas co-ordinates the senses due to its own sense of I-ness, not due to > > Buddhi. > > > > > > I hope this clarifies. > > > > > > Regards, > > > Nitish > > > > > > , Narasimha PVR Rao <pvr@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Namaste, > > > > > > > > Out of the 19 or 35 attributes of individualized consciousness, which > > one gives the idea " I am this " or " I am that " ? Of course, it is ahamkaraka > > or I-ness or egosense or ego principle! > > > > > > > > Is one's idea of " I am this " limited to a physical body? Of course not! > > If someone says " so and so person is a terrible person " , one may feel > > offended or if someone says " so and so person is a great person " , one may > > feel elated. One's ahamkara or I-ness is identifying with the criticism or > > praise, even though nothing is being done to the physical body and only a > > name is being used. When somebody calls one by name from distance (as > > opposed to patting on the physical body and calling), one's consciousness > > may still think " I am being called " and one may turn towards the caller. As > > in these examples, one's I-ness does of course bind itself to more than a > > body. > > > > > > > > Suppose one gets a dream while sleeping. One may have forgotten totally > > about the physical body in the dream! One may think of something else as > > " I " . In dreams, one may see oneself as a different body or may not even > > " see " onself, but still one may have the sense that so and so thing is > > happening to " me " . So, even when the mind is drawn away from the physical > > body, there is still a notion of " I am this " (I-ness) in a dream. That is > > ahamkara or I-ness or ego principle. > > > > > > > > Your idea that ahamkara is limited to physical body is absolutely > > unacceptable. Ahamkara or I-ness extends beyond the physical body. > > > > > > > > Also, your idea that deities like Agni do not have ahamkara (I-ness) > > because they do not have physical bodies is incorrect. Of course, Agni does > > have an I-ness and thinks " I am Agni and this is what I do " . If he did not > > have that I-ness, he would not do everything he does. > > > > > > > > Moreover, the 19 or 35 ideas of individualized consciousness do > > interact with each other, whether we use the word " control " for some of > > those interactions or not. For example, buddhi (intellectual/ discriminating > > mind) judges various past experiences, interacts with manas (sensory-motor > > mind) and tells it what to do. Then manas interacts with karmendriyas > > (organs of action) and makes them do various things. My buddhi determined > > what to write and my manas told my hands to type this and I ended up typing. > > > > > > > > Your point about " what exists as a part cannot be the whole " is totally > > out of place. The sense of I-ness, the memories and conditioning, the > > logical mind, the sensory-motor mind, karmendriyas etc are all different > > parts of individualized consciousness and they play different roles while > > interacting with each other in different ways. Some of those interactions > > may be deemed to be controls. > > > > > > > > > Am not mixing up the terminologies, though my mail didn't > > > > > go in details. Your understanding is flawed. > > > > > > > > > > 2. Where did you read this up ? > > > > > > > > One does not " read up " these things in a single place. There are > > different abstractions and breakdowns of what happens in individualized > > consciousness. There are several sources that speak of different aspects of > > this knowledge in slightly different terms. One will assimilate this > > knowledge better if one reads as many sources as possible and contemplates. > > > > > > > > Best regards, > > > > Narasimha > > > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- - > > > > Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ homam > > > > Do Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ tarpana > > > > Spirituality: http://groups. / group/vedic- wisdom > > > > Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro. home.comcast. net > > > > Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAst rologer.org > > > > Jyotish writings: http://groups. / group/JyotishWri tings > > > > Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagan nath.org > > > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- - > > > > > > > > ---- yeeahoo_99 <nitish.arya@ ...> wrote: > > > > > || OM TAT SAT || > > > > > Dear Narasimha, > > > > > Please Ignore my previous-mail, it was not completed - i will try to > > delete it. > > > > > > > > > > Am not mixing up the terminologies, though my mail didn't go in > > details. Your understanding is flawed. > > > > > > > > > > 1. All ideas including the idea of Ahamkara naturally belong to the > > ideational or causal body, but Ahamkara must be overcome only in the > > physical body (See point 5.). Astral or Causal-bodied beings (those without > > a physical/astral body) don't have to fight with the idea of Ahamkara like > > we do. > > > > > > > > > > > Ahamkaara/ego controls manas and buddhi also. When manas (sensory- > > > > > > ...they are all guided by the sense of I-ness. That sense of I-ness > > > > > > > > permeates through all layers of one's individualized consciousness. > > > > > > > > > > 2. Where did you read this up ? > > > > > > > > > > There is a fine line between the sense of I-ness attributed to the > > Individual Soul and the sense of I-ness derived through the idea of > > Ahamkara. Even after a Soul is freed of the three bodies, the individuality > > of the Soul Atom is not destroyed (Resurrection implies that), while it has > > already given up the idea of Ahamkara including all other ideas. > > > > > > > > > > Individuality of a causal-bodied being is not due to the idea of > > Ahamkara because " What exists as a part cannot be the whole " . Thus, the idea > > of Ahamkara, being one of the 35 ideas of the Causal-body, doesn't account > > for neither controls the rest of the 34 ideas. Each idea is independent of > > another, without requiring another idea to act upon it - otherwise your > > buddhi would always interfere with the functioning of Mind or Ahamkara or > > the 5 functions of life-forces and so on. > > > > > > > > > > Essentially, the 35 ideas of causal body are the basic causal forces > > and are not related as cause-effect to each other. Thus, each is independent > > of the application of the sense of I-ness derived from Ahamkara. Manas and > > Buddhi being two of the Causal-ideas, their functioning as well as existence > > is not " controlled " nor " derived " in any way by the idea of Ahamkara. It is > > very clear when we see those with sharpest Buddhi or Sharpest Mind still > > carrying Heaviest Ahamkara, because they didn't work upon that particular > > idea. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But ego/ahamkaara/ I-ness is the very basis of the entire > > > > > > individualized consciousness. > > > > > > > > > > 3. Well, as most Physical-bodied beings cannot see through the > > Astral/causal cosmoses, it doesn't apply in the same way to the finer Astral > > and Causal-bodied beings who can always pierce the veil of Maya and see the > > human activities. Thus, what is " the very basis " of the entire > > individualized consciousness for a physical-bodied (unenlightened) being is > > not the same as for an astral/causal bodied being. > > > > > An Astral-bodied being thinks of Manas/sense- consciousness as the > > very basis of the entire individualized consciousness. > > > > > A Causal-bodied being thinks of Chitta/perceptive- consciousness as > > the very basis of the entire individualized consciousness. > > > > > However, that individuality is of the Soul not derived from any idea, > > which is why it is not lost when the Astral being loses astral consciousness > > and reincarnates in the Physical body. > > > > > > > > > > As an example, Devatas, with their finer bodies, are able to work > > through all the beings in all their physical-bodies simultaneously (like > > Ganesh resides in the Mooladhara, Agni digests the food, and so on..), never > > getting controlled by Ahamkara that would require them to say that this > > particular body is " my body " or that one is mine - unless they incarnate in > > Physical bodies themselves. Devatas are, however, Astral/Causal- bodied > > beings, so they would attempt to influence the Manas (Spirit-Possession) of > > the sense-bound worshipper. Pretas on the other hand, would attempt to > > possess ones' physical body as well as act out their Ahamkara. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Out of the four antahkaranas, chitta (remembering or conditioned > > > > > > mind) and ahamkaara (ego or I-ness) are parts of the kaarana > > > > > > sareera (causal body) and remain till the end. > > > > > > > > > > 4. As per the resurrected Soul of Sri Yukteswar in Autobiography of a > > Yogi - > > > > > > > > > > Causal body is a matrix of 35 ideas, that include 19 ideas comprising > > Astral body (Chitta, Manas, Buddhi, Ahamkara, 5 functions of knowledge, 5 > > functions of Action, 5 functions of life-force) and 16 ideas comprising > > Physical body (16 chemical elements). > > > > > > > > > > Now, as we all know that Physical body expires as a whole, not just > > one or two of the 16 elements comprising it go away at a time, Astral and > > Causal bodies are also cast off as a whole in the corresponding cosmic > > consciousness - instead of different constituent ideas slipping out of it at > > different times. Chitta being the staging idea for all other modifications, > > can be termed as the last to go, when the causal body is finally dropped - > > hence I wrote as rising above Chitta. > > > > > > > > > > Thus, the idea of Ahamkara is bound with Gross Physical vibrations, > > > > > Manas with Subtle Astral vibrations and > > > > > Chitta with infinitely Subtle Causal Vibrations. > > > > > > > > > > Buddhi being another variable, can be developed or undeveloped > > irrespective of the other 34. Even illiterate Moodha, through surrender to > > their Guru, attain freedom from Ahamkara and so on... > > > > > > > > > > BTW, Chitta is not the Conditioned Mind. Chitta does store the > > residual impressions of all the past incarnations. However, being > > constituted of Satwa Guna, it doesn't have any inherent ability to act upon > > (Rajas) those impressions, just like a container containing an inflammable > > liquid doesn't automatically burn it down. Sadhana is required for That. > > > > > The Samskaras stored by Chitta, including those of Nidra, Smriti, > > Vikalpa, Viparyaya, Pramana, correspond to the Tamo Guna, while the Chitta > > itself is Satva Guna - hence the " Satvic - Tamas " represents the SuperEther > > tattwa (refer my previous mail). The all-perceiving Satvic Chitta doesn't > > get conditioned by the Tamo-guni Samskaras it stores. > > > > > Once the Chitta calms down, cleared of all residual impressions, only > > Satva Guna remains, the intuition becomes coherent and the Soul reflects on > > itself as distinct from Satva Guna of Prakriti (Chitta), thus realizing its > > own nature as Brahman. > > > > > > > > > > 5. > > > > > In Patanjali Yoga Sutras: > > > > > drigadarshanaktyore katmataivasmita -6 > > > > > Egoism is the identification of the seer with the instrument of > > seeing. Patanjali has used Asmita instead of Ahamkara. > > > > > Since astral-bodied beings can use any of the senses like eyes to > > see, hear, smell, taste and so on (refer Autobiography of a Yogi)... the > > sense of egoism does not take roots in the astral-body and hence doesn't > > create Astral Karma. Similarly, Causal bodied beings can use thought to > > sense everything. > > > > > > > > > > Hence, Egotism has to be rooted out while the consciousness is > > associated with the Physical Body sensory activities or has Physical Karma. > > > > > > > > > > 6. The idea of Manas, as the controller of sense-consciousness , must > > be overcome in Astral body, through Vairagya. Read autobiography of a Yogi > > (chapter 43) where Sri Yukteswar illustrates that only those beings who > > cannot be tempted to go back to the pleasing to the eye Astral cosmos are > > permitted to stay permanently in the Causal cosmos. Pleasing to the eye > > implies Sense-consciousness which is associated with Manas. > > > > > > > > > > In Patanjali Yoga Sutras also it is mentioned in the same manner : > > > > > > > > > > dristanushravika vishaya vitrishnasya vashikara samjnavairagyam -15- > > > > > > > > > > That effect which comes to these who have given up their thirst after > > objects, either seen or heard, and which wills to control the objects, is > > non-attachment. Vivekananda has commented that Vairagya is the only way to > > freedom. > > > > > > > > > > This is to be accomplished by transferring the consciousness to > > Astral-Body and working out the Astral Karma or otherwise as an > > astral-bodied being. > > > > > > > > > > 7. Patanjali Yoga Sutras: > > > > > yogashchittavrittin irodhah -2- > > > > > Thus, extinguishing all the movements of Chitta is called " Yoga " . > > > > > > > > > > This is to be accomplished by transferring the consciousness to > > Causal-Body and working out the Causal Karma or otherwise as a causal-bodied > > being. > > > > > > > > > > I hope this clarifies. > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > Nitish > > > > > > > > > > , Narasimha PVR Rao <pvr@> > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Namaste Nitish, > > > > > > > > > > > > I am afraid you are mixing up terminologies. For example, ego or > > ahamkaara (sense of I-ness) is not limited to the physical body, but extends > > to subtle body and causal body as well. In fact, ego resides in the causal > > body and affects other bodies. Out of the four antahkaranas, chitta > > (remembering or conditioned mind) and ahamkaara (ego or I-ness) are parts of > > the kaarana sareera (causal body) and remain till the end. > > > > > > > > > > > > Ahamkaara/ego controls manas and buddhi also. When manas > > (sensory-motor mind) observes sensory inputs or buddhi (intellectual or > > thinking mind) analyzes current and past observations of mind or chitta > > (remembering or conditioned mind) stores various observations or retrieves > > previously stored observations, they are all guided by the sense of I-ness. > > That sense of I-ness permeates through all layers of one's individualized > > consciousness. > > > > > > > > > > > > Upanishads and various scriptures have broken down the > > individualized consciousness into various groups by functionality, like five > > koshas, three sareeras, five praanas, five jnaanendriyas, five karmendriyas, > > four antahkaranas, six/seven chakras etc. But ego/ahamkaara/ I-ness is the > > very basis of the entire individualized consciousness. > > > > > > > > > > > > Though the word jnaana means different things to different people, > > a jnaana yogi pursues Self by the path of contemplation and discrimination. > > When a jnaana yogi reaches the final target, all bodies and koshas are > > merged in cosmos. > > > > > > > > > > > > Best regards, > > > > > > Narasimha > > > > > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- - > > > > > > Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ homam > > > > > > Do Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/tarpana > > > > > > Spirituality: http://groups. / group/vedic- wisdom > > > > > > Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro. home.comcast. net > > > > > > Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAst rologer.org > > > > > > Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagan nath.org > > > > > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- - > > > > > > > > > > > > ---- yeeahoo_99 <nitish.arya@ > wrote: > > > > > > > || OM TAT SAT || > > > > > > > Dear Narasimha, > > > > > > > In my opinion, there are three distinct phases that lead the > > sould to rise above Ego, Mind and Chitta - corresponding to the three bodies > > physical (Sthoola), astral (Sookshma) and causal (Karana) resp. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Rising above Ego is Jnana - Merging Physical body in Physical > > cosmos > > > > > > > Rising above Mind is Vairagya - Merging Astral body in Astral > > cosmos > > > > > > > Rising above Chitta is Yoga - Merging Causal body in Causal > > cosmos > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Finally, becoming established in Para-Brahman is YogaArudha. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Your comments. > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > Nitish > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , " Narasimha P.V.R. Rao " > > <pvr@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Namaste, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Gyaani or jnaani is a wise and learned person, who may or may > > not debate (or even engage) with others. One may become a gyaani using > > either gyaana yoga or bhakti yoga or karma yoga or raaja yoga. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Gyaana/jnaana yoga is a path of pursuing the Supreme through > > intellectual analysis. One pursuing that path may or may not debate with > > others and may or may not read many scriptures, but one will analyze and > > debate within oneself. One starts with the basic axioms (e.g. Self is > > imperishable and without a beginning or an end). One will go on eliminating > > things that one is aware of as not being Self. For example, body has a > > beginning and end and is perishable. So it is not Self. One introspects like > > this and, though the process of elimination, finally finds the true Self. > > That is gyaana yoga. Pure gyaana yoga is very difficult to follow in this > > age. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Vichaara (contemplation) is the process of sadhana for an > > adherer of pure gyaana yoga. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > However, the gyaana (knowledge of Self) achieved by such a > > person at the end is not really different from the knowledge of Self > > achieved by a person following another path. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Best regards, > > > > > > > > Narasimha > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Try the new India Homepage. > > http://in./trynew > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 4, 2009 Report Share Posted October 4, 2009 Namaste Nitishji: If I may ask you humbly, are you writing all of this from the depth of your personal experience or by synthesizing what has been written by others. Since joining this group many of us have been inspired by the personal spiritual accounts of a few. If you could share yours, it would be all the more inspiring to us. Regards! , " yeeahoo_99 " <nitish.arya wrote: > > || OM TAT SAT || > Dear Utpalji and Narasimha, > > If any of you is offended due to my being explicit with words - it also shows that you people have a lot of scope in learning of new ideas! > > > The second statement says something radical. Ahamkaara and I Ness > > is completely two different identity. > > your second statment is a departure from almost every Gnyaani has > > to say. > > It is none of my fault that this conflict arose and continues. Here is the reason. > > In my first mail (#2704) itself it is explicitly written, that Patanjali has used the exact word " asmita " for Egoism - which is the I-ness (Ahamkara) in Physical body consciousness - that causes identification of the seer with the instrument of seeing i.e. Physical senses. > > > In Patanjali Yoga Sutras: > > drigadarshanaktyorekatmataivasmita -6 > > Egoism is the identification of the seer with the instrument of > > seeing. > > >>> Patanjali has used Asmita instead of Ahamkara. > > > PATANJALI has not used the word AHAMKARA anywhere in his PRECISE AND ESTEEMED sanskrit dissertation on YOGA - he has chosen to use the word ASMITA everywhere. E.g. > > 1. vitarka vicharanandasmita rupanugamat samprajnatah - > > SASMITA SAMADHI > > 2. From Lahiri Mahasayas' Commentary on Patanjali - > > avidyasmitaragadveshabhinibeshah panchakleshah > > " Avidya " [ignorance], " asmita " [egotism], " raga " [attraction or > liking], " dvesha " [hatred or disliking] and " abhinibesha " [engrossment] -- these are the five types of afflictions. > > Thus, using " Ahamkara " while talking about Sankhya and using " Asmita " while talking about Patanjali Sutras brought in the conflict. In any case, what is called as Ahamkara in 24 principles of Sankhya is actually Asmita, which can be very-loosely pitted as Ahamkara. > > The idea stated by me was on firm grounds - with reference to Patanjali Sutras and the words of Sri Yukteswar in Autobiography of a Yogi. And this idea is there in my first mail, though not the exact table: > > PHYSICAL I-NESS (AHAMKARA) = ASMITA = Physical Egotism > ASTRAL I-NESS (AHAMKARA) = MANAS = Astral attachments > CAUSAL I-NESS (AHAMKARA) = CHITTA = Causal Perceptions > > Also, one of the 2 reasons that I had given on why Astral/Causal Body beings don't have sense of Asmita as a dominant sense of I-ness is this: > > > Since astral-bodied beings can use any of the senses like eyes to > > see, hear, smell, taste and so on (refer Autobiography of a > > Yogi)... the sense of egoism does not take roots in the astral-body > and hence doesn't create Astral Karma. > > Similarly, Causal bodied beings can use thought to sense everything. > > > Hence, Egotism has to be rooted out while the consciousness is > > associated with the Physical Body sensory activities or has > > Physical Karma. > > Lastly, extending upon this idea further, there are beings in the Astral cosmos who have never been in Physical forms - We Physical beings are not the only ones in the cycles of creation. While they will still have the idea of " Asmita " in their causal bodies, but they will always be repelled by the grosser-vibrations of Sensual experiences in Physical Bodies/Cosmos, and hence would not incur any Physical Karma due to " Asmita " . > > -------------------------------- > [ TO ALL IN THE LIST ] > - If the above explanation resolves the issue, well and good. Whether it does or doesn't, this is my last mail on this topic because I had said all I had to in the first mail itself - whether you read it or missed it. > You may read a detailed article on this topic that I will write as and when time allows me to do so. > > > [ TO UTPALJI ] > - Am not a jnani. > But there are Jnanis, who know that 6th tattwa doesn't exist. > That is why there is a significant departure. > > [ TO NARASIMHA ] > > > So you are accepting that there as " I-ness of manas " and " I-ness of > chitta " . I-ness=aham-kaara. > > There was never a time that I didn't, and I have no control over what meaning you derive from my words. > > > I still think this is a case of a Pascal language programmer > > unfamiliar with C language misunderstanding some software written > > in C language and passing comments. But unfortunately that > > programmer seems to be hasty in using labels like " flawed " , > > " incorrect " , " incoherent " etc about other programmers whose > > language he is unable to understand. > > The power of mind needs no language to express itself...If a Programmer just understands this much, he will become the Architect! > Also, while a Programmer always assumes that every other person he encounters is a Programmer, an Architect knows that every other person is an Architect in making. Hope you become an Architect one day! > > Regards, > Nitish > > , " vedic_pathak " <vedic_pathak@> wrote: > > > > Namaste Nitish ji, > > > > >Ahamkara is an idea in Causal-body, so it is present all the time >till the > > >soul is freed of the three body containers. > > > > > > > " Ahamkara isn't the dominant cause of I-ness in Astral/Causal >bodies " > > > > I am not getting your point here. you agree in the above given first statement that Ahamkaara is an Idea present in all three bodies and remains TILL the soul is freed from all the three containers. > > > > The second statement says something radical. Ahamkaara and I Ness is completely two different identity. > > > > your second statment is a departure from almost every Gnyaani has to say. > > > > I pray...you please clarify your understanding of Ahamkaara and I Ness. > > > > looking forward to explanation of the above. > > > > Thanks & Regards, > > > > Utpal > > > > > > > > , " yeeahoo_99 " <nitish.arya@> wrote: > > > > > > || OM TAT SAT || > > > Namaskar Rajarshi, > > > > > > Thanks for your contribution - all you have done is to prove what is already known. > > > > > > > Therefore, Ahamkara exists even in beyond the death for a normal > > > > human being. Therewfore, Ahamkara is present in the astral/casual > > > > plane as well. > > > > > > 1. Do you realize what is being talked about and what you have ended up proving ? Wherein did I deny that Ahamkara is not present in Astral/Causal bodies ? > > > > > > Ahamkara is an idea in Causal-body, so it is present all the time till the soul is freed of the three body containers. > > > > > > 2. OTOH, What I have stated, with reference to Patanjali Sutras, is that Ahamkara is " SUPPRESSED " in Astral and Causal bodies. Meaning > > > > > > " Ahamkara isn't the dominant cause of I-ness in Astral/Causal bodies " > > > > > > And as a result wouldn't contribute to the acquisition of Astral/Causal Karma. > > > > > > Why is Ahamkara not dominant in Astral/Causal bodies ? > > > The reason I have already given in the first mail in sufficient detail. > > > > > > IF THE AHAMKARA IS NOT SUPPRESSED AFTER PHYSICAL DEATH, THE PERSON WILL KEEP CARRYING THE SAME EARTHLY IDENTITY TO THE ASTRAL PLANES, AND BRING IT BACK AT REBIRTH TO THE EARTH. AND THEN, HE WILL RECLAIM HIS LOST TERRITORY AND WEALTH - THE CONFLICTS THAT WILL ARISE WILL BE BEYOND ANYBODY'S CONTROL. > > > THUS, THE BEAUTIFUL ASTRAL SPHERE ARE SENSED BY THE I-NESS OF MANAS, while CAUSAL SPHERE ARE SENSED BY THE I-NESS OF CHITTA. > > > > > > Please read more of " Sri Sri Paramahansa Yogananda " , he has mentioned about all these things (what happens to a soul at death and so on) in such a simplistic manner in his Gita commentaries, that even a layman can understand it. > > > > > > Regards, > > > Nitish > > > > > > , rajarshi nandy <rajarshi14@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Namaste > > > > > > > > Proof by Contradiction > > > > A person who lives as a farmer, should, after death, remain a farmer in the astral cosmos, and after subsequent astral death, should be reborn as the same farmer with the same name and same identity as in his previous earthly incarnation. > > > > > > > > Wrong example. > > > > > > > > A person after his death, depending on his tendencies in this life and level of spiritual evolution will retain some aspects of his personality, which means a person who loves music intensely will also in his next birth have an affinity for music. The conditions of the birth and inbetween period depends both on his inherent samaskaras as well the karmic repurcussion. It not, never, entirely once choice. It a mix and match between what one wants and what one deserves. IN all cases, to be able to retain the samskara Ahamakara is needed. Therefore, Ahamkara exists even in beyond the death for a normal human being. Therewfore, Ahamkara is present in the astral/casual plane as well. > > > > > > > > > > > > Corollary #1: > > > > A Devata as an Astral-being has I-ness due to his Manas, and doesn't have Ahamkara for the work done by him in all the various physical bodies. > > > > > > > > > > > > This example becomse invalid since the analysis of the first example itself in incorrect. > > > > > > > > -Regards > > > > Rajarshi > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The upsurge (of consciousness) is Bhairava - Shiva Sutra > > > > > > > > --- On Sun, 4/10/09, yeeahoo_99 <nitish.arya@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > yeeahoo_99 <nitish.arya@> > > > > Re: Gyan Marga > > > > > > > > Sunday, 4 October, 2009, 9:40 AM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > || OM TAT SAT || > > > > Dear Narasimha and Sundeep, > > > > > > > > Thanks for your feedback. I thought, I had written a quite clear and explicit mail, but your reply has proved that it needs to be put down in at least 10-fold simpler words. > > > > > > > > You read my mail, but picked up notions in an incorrect, incoherent manner, and are reading beyond what is written in my mail. > > > > > > > > To prove my point, I would ask Sundeep to read my previous mail on " Gyan Marg " followed by your reply and see if he also picks up the notions in the same manner as you did ? > > > > > > > > The only addition required is an example: > > > > > > > > Your hypothesis > > > > Ahamkara is the only I-ness there is for all the beings in all the 3 cosmoses i.e. all the Physical, Astral and Causal-bodied beings. > > > > > > > > Proof by Contradiction > > > > A person who lives as a farmer, should, after death, remain a farmer in the astral cosmos, and after subsequent astral death, should be reborn as the same farmer with the same name and same identity as in his previous earthly incarnation. > > > > This is not the case, people don't even remember what they were in previous birth, and start their life afresh in a new earthly body > > > > => Contradiction > > > > => the original hypothesis is wrong > > > > => Ahamkara is not the only sense of I-ness applicable to all beings in all the 3 cosmoses. > > > > > > > > Inference #1: > > > > => Ahamkara is dominant sense of I-ness in Physical Cosmos. > > > > => Manas is dominant sense of I-ness in Astral Cosmos. > > > > => Chitta is dominant sense of I-ness in Causal Cosmos. > > > > > > > > Corollary #1: > > > > A Devata as an Astral-being has I-ness due to his Manas, and doesn't have Ahamkara for the work done by him in all the various physical bodies. > > > > > > > > Inference #1 and Corollary #1 is what I had written in my previous mail on this topic. > > > > > > > > There are many other ways to prove the contradiction on this hypothesis (e.g. Powers of beings in physical cosmos < those in astral cosmos < those in causal cosmos). > > > > > > > > Your made two additional points that are also invalid. My comments on that is: > > > > > > > > 1. I-ness derived from Ahamkara,Manas and Chitta has no innate power to Control any other idea of the 35 Causal-ideas. > > > > Reason: > > > > Soul is the only Truth and controller, everything else has an unreal and derived existence. Thus, all the 35 ideas co-ordinate with each other, and not control each other. > > > > > > > > 2. A new-born child or a person in Hypnotic-Trance, is able to use his sense-consciousness coherently due to the astral-bodys' sense of I-ness derived from Manas, that coordinates the senses. > > > > He has no Buddhi or discriminating faculty to interact with manas (sensory-motor mind) and tell it what to do - as you have proposed. Thus, Manas co-ordinates the senses due to its own sense of I-ness, not due to Buddhi. > > > > > > > > I hope this clarifies. > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > Nitish > > > > > > > > , Narasimha PVR Rao <pvr@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Namaste, > > > > > > > > > > Out of the 19 or 35 attributes of individualized consciousness, which one gives the idea " I am this " or " I am that " ? Of course, it is ahamkaraka or I-ness or egosense or ego principle! > > > > > > > > > > Is one's idea of " I am this " limited to a physical body? Of course not! If someone says " so and so person is a terrible person " , one may feel offended or if someone says " so and so person is a great person " , one may feel elated. One's ahamkara or I-ness is identifying with the criticism or praise, even though nothing is being done to the physical body and only a name is being used. When somebody calls one by name from distance (as opposed to patting on the physical body and calling), one's consciousness may still think " I am being called " and one may turn towards the caller. As in these examples, one's I-ness does of course bind itself to more than a body. > > > > > > > > > > Suppose one gets a dream while sleeping. One may have forgotten totally about the physical body in the dream! One may think of something else as " I " . In dreams, one may see oneself as a different body or may not even " see " onself, but still one may have the sense that so and so thing is happening to " me " . So, even when the mind is drawn away from the physical body, there is still a notion of " I am this " (I-ness) in a dream. That is ahamkara or I-ness or ego principle. > > > > > > > > > > Your idea that ahamkara is limited to physical body is absolutely unacceptable. Ahamkara or I-ness extends beyond the physical body. > > > > > > > > > > Also, your idea that deities like Agni do not have ahamkara (I-ness) because they do not have physical bodies is incorrect. Of course, Agni does have an I-ness and thinks " I am Agni and this is what I do " . If he did not have that I-ness, he would not do everything he does. > > > > > > > > > > Moreover, the 19 or 35 ideas of individualized consciousness do interact with each other, whether we use the word " control " for some of those interactions or not. For example, buddhi (intellectual/ discriminating mind) judges various past experiences, interacts with manas (sensory-motor mind) and tells it what to do. Then manas interacts with karmendriyas (organs of action) and makes them do various things. My buddhi determined what to write and my manas told my hands to type this and I ended up typing. > > > > > > > > > > Your point about " what exists as a part cannot be the whole " is totally out of place. The sense of I-ness, the memories and conditioning, the logical mind, the sensory-motor mind, karmendriyas etc are all different parts of individualized consciousness and they play different roles while interacting with each other in different ways. Some of those interactions may be deemed to be controls. > > > > > > > > > > > Am not mixing up the terminologies, though my mail didn't > > > > > > go in details. Your understanding is flawed. > > > > > > > > > > > > 2. Where did you read this up ? > > > > > > > > > > One does not " read up " these things in a single place. There are different abstractions and breakdowns of what happens in individualized consciousness. There are several sources that speak of different aspects of this knowledge in slightly different terms. One will assimilate this knowledge better if one reads as many sources as possible and contemplates. > > > > > > > > > > Best regards, > > > > > Narasimha > > > > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- - > > > > > Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ homam > > > > > Do Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ tarpana > > > > > Spirituality: http://groups. / group/vedic- wisdom > > > > > Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro. home.comcast. net > > > > > Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAst rologer.org > > > > > Jyotish writings: http://groups. / group/JyotishWri tings > > > > > Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagan nath.org > > > > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- - > > > > > > > > > > ---- yeeahoo_99 <nitish.arya@ ...> wrote: > > > > > > || OM TAT SAT || > > > > > > Dear Narasimha, > > > > > > Please Ignore my previous-mail, it was not completed - i will try to delete it. > > > > > > > > > > > > Am not mixing up the terminologies, though my mail didn't go in details. Your understanding is flawed. > > > > > > > > > > > > 1. All ideas including the idea of Ahamkara naturally belong to the ideational or causal body, but Ahamkara must be overcome only in the physical body (See point 5.). Astral or Causal-bodied beings (those without a physical/astral body) don't have to fight with the idea of Ahamkara like we do. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ahamkaara/ego controls manas and buddhi also. When manas (sensory- > > > > > > > ...they are all guided by the sense of I-ness. That sense of I-ness > > > > > > > permeates through all layers of one's individualized consciousness. > > > > > > > > > > > > 2. Where did you read this up ? > > > > > > > > > > > > There is a fine line between the sense of I-ness attributed to the Individual Soul and the sense of I-ness derived through the idea of Ahamkara. Even after a Soul is freed of the three bodies, the individuality of the Soul Atom is not destroyed (Resurrection implies that), while it has already given up the idea of Ahamkara including all other ideas. > > > > > > > > > > > > Individuality of a causal-bodied being is not due to the idea of Ahamkara because " What exists as a part cannot be the whole " . Thus, the idea of Ahamkara, being one of the 35 ideas of the Causal-body, doesn't account for neither controls the rest of the 34 ideas. Each idea is independent of another, without requiring another idea to act upon it - otherwise your buddhi would always interfere with the functioning of Mind or Ahamkara or the 5 functions of life-forces and so on. > > > > > > > > > > > > Essentially, the 35 ideas of causal body are the basic causal forces and are not related as cause-effect to each other. Thus, each is independent of the application of the sense of I-ness derived from Ahamkara. Manas and Buddhi being two of the Causal-ideas, their functioning as well as existence is not " controlled " nor " derived " in any way by the idea of Ahamkara. It is very clear when we see those with sharpest Buddhi or Sharpest Mind still carrying Heaviest Ahamkara, because they didn't work upon that particular idea. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But ego/ahamkaara/ I-ness is the very basis of the entire > > > > > > > individualized consciousness. > > > > > > > > > > > > 3. Well, as most Physical-bodied beings cannot see through the Astral/causal cosmoses, it doesn't apply in the same way to the finer Astral and Causal-bodied beings who can always pierce the veil of Maya and see the human activities. Thus, what is " the very basis " of the entire individualized consciousness for a physical-bodied (unenlightened) being is not the same as for an astral/causal bodied being. > > > > > > An Astral-bodied being thinks of Manas/sense- consciousness as the very basis of the entire individualized consciousness. > > > > > > A Causal-bodied being thinks of Chitta/perceptive- consciousness as the very basis of the entire individualized consciousness. > > > > > > However, that individuality is of the Soul not derived from any idea, which is why it is not lost when the Astral being loses astral consciousness and reincarnates in the Physical body. > > > > > > > > > > > > As an example, Devatas, with their finer bodies, are able to work through all the beings in all their physical-bodies simultaneously (like Ganesh resides in the Mooladhara, Agni digests the food, and so on..), never getting controlled by Ahamkara that would require them to say that this particular body is " my body " or that one is mine - unless they incarnate in Physical bodies themselves. Devatas are, however, Astral/Causal- bodied beings, so they would attempt to influence the Manas (Spirit-Possession) of the sense-bound worshipper. Pretas on the other hand, would attempt to possess ones' physical body as well as act out their Ahamkara. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Out of the four antahkaranas, chitta (remembering or conditioned > > > > > > > mind) and ahamkaara (ego or I-ness) are parts of the kaarana > > > > > > > sareera (causal body) and remain till the end. > > > > > > > > > > > > 4. As per the resurrected Soul of Sri Yukteswar in Autobiography of a Yogi - > > > > > > > > > > > > Causal body is a matrix of 35 ideas, that include 19 ideas comprising Astral body (Chitta, Manas, Buddhi, Ahamkara, 5 functions of knowledge, 5 functions of Action, 5 functions of life-force) and 16 ideas comprising Physical body (16 chemical elements). > > > > > > > > > > > > Now, as we all know that Physical body expires as a whole, not just one or two of the 16 elements comprising it go away at a time, Astral and Causal bodies are also cast off as a whole in the corresponding cosmic consciousness - instead of different constituent ideas slipping out of it at different times. Chitta being the staging idea for all other modifications, can be termed as the last to go, when the causal body is finally dropped - hence I wrote as rising above Chitta. > > > > > > > > > > > > Thus, the idea of Ahamkara is bound with Gross Physical vibrations, > > > > > > Manas with Subtle Astral vibrations and > > > > > > Chitta with infinitely Subtle Causal Vibrations. > > > > > > > > > > > > Buddhi being another variable, can be developed or undeveloped irrespective of the other 34. Even illiterate Moodha, through surrender to their Guru, attain freedom from Ahamkara and so on... > > > > > > > > > > > > BTW, Chitta is not the Conditioned Mind. Chitta does store the residual impressions of all the past incarnations. However, being constituted of Satwa Guna, it doesn't have any inherent ability to act upon (Rajas) those impressions, just like a container containing an inflammable liquid doesn't automatically burn it down. Sadhana is required for That. > > > > > > The Samskaras stored by Chitta, including those of Nidra, Smriti, Vikalpa, Viparyaya, Pramana, correspond to the Tamo Guna, while the Chitta itself is Satva Guna - hence the " Satvic - Tamas " represents the SuperEther tattwa (refer my previous mail). The all-perceiving Satvic Chitta doesn't get conditioned by the Tamo-guni Samskaras it stores. > > > > > > Once the Chitta calms down, cleared of all residual impressions, only Satva Guna remains, the intuition becomes coherent and the Soul reflects on itself as distinct from Satva Guna of Prakriti (Chitta), thus realizing its own nature as Brahman. > > > > > > > > > > > > 5. > > > > > > In Patanjali Yoga Sutras: > > > > > > drigadarshanaktyore katmataivasmita -6 > > > > > > Egoism is the identification of the seer with the instrument of seeing. Patanjali has used Asmita instead of Ahamkara. > > > > > > Since astral-bodied beings can use any of the senses like eyes to see, hear, smell, taste and so on (refer Autobiography of a Yogi)... the sense of egoism does not take roots in the astral-body and hence doesn't create Astral Karma. Similarly, Causal bodied beings can use thought to sense everything. > > > > > > > > > > > > Hence, Egotism has to be rooted out while the consciousness is associated with the Physical Body sensory activities or has Physical Karma. > > > > > > > > > > > > 6. The idea of Manas, as the controller of sense-consciousness , must be overcome in Astral body, through Vairagya. Read autobiography of a Yogi (chapter 43) where Sri Yukteswar illustrates that only those beings who cannot be tempted to go back to the pleasing to the eye Astral cosmos are permitted to stay permanently in the Causal cosmos. Pleasing to the eye implies Sense-consciousness which is associated with Manas. > > > > > > > > > > > > In Patanjali Yoga Sutras also it is mentioned in the same manner : > > > > > > > > > > > > dristanushravika vishaya vitrishnasya vashikara samjnavairagyam -15- > > > > > > > > > > > > That effect which comes to these who have given up their thirst after objects, either seen or heard, and which wills to control the objects, is non-attachment. Vivekananda has commented that Vairagya is the only way to freedom. > > > > > > > > > > > > This is to be accomplished by transferring the consciousness to Astral-Body and working out the Astral Karma or otherwise as an astral-bodied being. > > > > > > > > > > > > 7. Patanjali Yoga Sutras: > > > > > > yogashchittavrittin irodhah -2- > > > > > > Thus, extinguishing all the movements of Chitta is called " Yoga " . > > > > > > > > > > > > This is to be accomplished by transferring the consciousness to Causal-Body and working out the Causal Karma or otherwise as a causal-bodied being. > > > > > > > > > > > > I hope this clarifies. > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > Nitish > > > > > > > > > > > > , Narasimha PVR Rao <pvr@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Namaste Nitish, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I am afraid you are mixing up terminologies. For example, ego or ahamkaara (sense of I-ness) is not limited to the physical body, but extends to subtle body and causal body as well. In fact, ego resides in the causal body and affects other bodies. Out of the four antahkaranas, chitta (remembering or conditioned mind) and ahamkaara (ego or I-ness) are parts of the kaarana sareera (causal body) and remain till the end. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ahamkaara/ego controls manas and buddhi also. When manas (sensory-motor mind) observes sensory inputs or buddhi (intellectual or thinking mind) analyzes current and past observations of mind or chitta (remembering or conditioned mind) stores various observations or retrieves previously stored observations, they are all guided by the sense of I-ness. That sense of I-ness permeates through all layers of one's individualized consciousness. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Upanishads and various scriptures have broken down the individualized consciousness into various groups by functionality, like five koshas, three sareeras, five praanas, five jnaanendriyas, five karmendriyas, four antahkaranas, six/seven chakras etc. But ego/ahamkaara/ I-ness is the very basis of the entire individualized consciousness. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Though the word jnaana means different things to different people, a jnaana yogi pursues Self by the path of contemplation and discrimination. When a jnaana yogi reaches the final target, all bodies and koshas are merged in cosmos. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Best regards, > > > > > > > Narasimha > > > > > > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- - > > > > > > > Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ homam > > > > > > > Do Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ tarpana > > > > > > > Spirituality: http://groups. / group/vedic- wisdom > > > > > > > Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro. home.comcast. net > > > > > > > Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAst rologer.org > > > > > > > Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagan nath.org > > > > > > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- - > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ---- yeeahoo_99 <nitish.arya@ > wrote: > > > > > > > > || OM TAT SAT || > > > > > > > > Dear Narasimha, > > > > > > > > In my opinion, there are three distinct phases that lead the sould to rise above Ego, Mind and Chitta - corresponding to the three bodies physical (Sthoola), astral (Sookshma) and causal (Karana) resp. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Rising above Ego is Jnana - Merging Physical body in Physical cosmos > > > > > > > > Rising above Mind is Vairagya - Merging Astral body in Astral cosmos > > > > > > > > Rising above Chitta is Yoga - Merging Causal body in Causal cosmos > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Finally, becoming established in Para-Brahman is YogaArudha. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Your comments. > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > Nitish > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , " Narasimha P.V.R. Rao " <pvr@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Namaste, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Gyaani or jnaani is a wise and learned person, who may or may not debate (or even engage) with others. One may become a gyaani using either gyaana yoga or bhakti yoga or karma yoga or raaja yoga. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Gyaana/jnaana yoga is a path of pursuing the Supreme through intellectual analysis. One pursuing that path may or may not debate with others and may or may not read many scriptures, but one will analyze and debate within oneself. One starts with the basic axioms (e.g. Self is imperishable and without a beginning or an end). One will go on eliminating things that one is aware of as not being Self. For example, body has a beginning and end and is perishable. So it is not Self. One introspects like this and, though the process of elimination, finally finds the true Self. That is gyaana yoga. Pure gyaana yoga is very difficult to follow in this age. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Vichaara (contemplation) is the process of sadhana for an adherer of pure gyaana yoga. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > However, the gyaana (knowledge of Self) achieved by such a person at the end is not really different from the knowledge of Self achieved by a person following another path. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Best regards, > > > > > > > > > Narasimha > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Try the new India Homepage. http://in./trynew > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 4, 2009 Report Share Posted October 4, 2009 Namaste, This is excellent - your terminology seems to be evolving and getting refined now. At one stage, you said " Ahamkara isn't the dominant cause of I-ness in Astral/Causal bodies " , while I was saying ahamkara=I-ness. Now, you wrote: > PHYSICAL I-NESS (AHAMKARA) = ASMITA = Physical Egotism > ASTRAL I-NESS (AHAMKARA) = MANAS = Astral attachments > CAUSAL I-NESS (AHAMKARA) = CHITTA = Causal Perceptions So you are acknowledging that I-ness and ahamkara are synonyms and referring to ahamkara at astral and causal planes. It is good that you are slowly converging! * * * I did not want to divert from the upanishadic terminology of 19 ideas of individualized consciousness. So I stuck to the term ahamkaara and ignored your references to Patanjali. Now that there is some convergence on " ahamkaara " , let me address " asmita " mentioned in Patanjali yoga sutras. > identification of the seer with the instrument of > seeing i.e. Physical senses. You are assuming that physical senses or physical body is the only instrument of seeing (or experiencing). However, mind can see, hear, feel and experience things even when it is not working with a physical body and physical senses. For example, one's mind may " see " something in a dream without the physical eyes seeing anything. Also, a yogi in deep meditation may see, hear, feel or experience something without the involvement of eyes, ears and other physical senses. If such a yogi identifies with the instrument of that experience, i.e. the mind, that too is asmita as per Patanjali's yoga sutra that you quoted. Just as I had an issue earlier with your limiting of ahamkaara to physical body, I also have an issue with your limiting of asmita to physical body. BTW, identification with physical body *as well as* identification with mind block one from yoga (communion) with true Self. Both are due to ahamkaara as defined by upanishads. Both are due to asmita as defined by Patanjali. Best regards, Narasimha Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAstrologer.org/homam Do Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAstrologer.org/tarpana Spirituality: Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro.home.comcast.net Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAstrologer.org Jyotish writings: JyotishWritings Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagannath.org ---- yeeahoo_99 <nitish.arya wrote: > || OM TAT SAT || > Dear Utpalji and Narasimha, > > If any of you is offended due to my being explicit with words - it also shows that you people have a lot of scope in learning of new ideas! > > > The second statement says something radical. Ahamkaara and I Ness > > is completely two different identity. > > your second statment is a departure from almost every Gnyaani has > > to say. > > It is none of my fault that this conflict arose and continues. Here is the reason. > > In my first mail (#2704) itself it is explicitly written, that Patanjali has used the exact word " asmita " for Egoism - which is the I-ness (Ahamkara) in Physical body consciousness - that causes identification of the seer with the instrument of seeing i.e. Physical senses. > > > In Patanjali Yoga Sutras: > > drigadarshanaktyorekatmataivasmita -6 > > Egoism is the identification of the seer with the instrument of > > seeing. > > >>> Patanjali has used Asmita instead of Ahamkara. > > > PATANJALI has not used the word AHAMKARA anywhere in his PRECISE AND ESTEEMED sanskrit dissertation on YOGA - he has chosen to use the word ASMITA everywhere. E.g. > > 1. vitarka vicharanandasmita rupanugamat samprajnatah - > > SASMITA SAMADHI > > 2. From Lahiri Mahasayas' Commentary on Patanjali - > > avidyasmitaragadveshabhinibeshah panchakleshah > > " Avidya " [ignorance], " asmita " [egotism], " raga " [attraction or > liking], " dvesha " [hatred or disliking] and " abhinibesha " [engrossment] -- these are the five types of afflictions. > > Thus, using " Ahamkara " while talking about Sankhya and using " Asmita " while talking about Patanjali Sutras brought in the conflict. In any case, what is called as Ahamkara in 24 principles of Sankhya is actually Asmita, which can be very-loosely pitted as Ahamkara. > > The idea stated by me was on firm grounds - with reference to Patanjali Sutras and the words of Sri Yukteswar in Autobiography of a Yogi. And this idea is there in my first mail, though not the exact table: > > PHYSICAL I-NESS (AHAMKARA) = ASMITA = Physical Egotism > ASTRAL I-NESS (AHAMKARA) = MANAS = Astral attachments > CAUSAL I-NESS (AHAMKARA) = CHITTA = Causal Perceptions > > Also, one of the 2 reasons that I had given on why Astral/Causal Body beings don't have sense of Asmita as a dominant sense of I-ness is this: > > > Since astral-bodied beings can use any of the senses like eyes to > > see, hear, smell, taste and so on (refer Autobiography of a > > Yogi)... the sense of egoism does not take roots in the astral-body > and hence doesn't create Astral Karma. > > Similarly, Causal bodied beings can use thought to sense everything. > > > Hence, Egotism has to be rooted out while the consciousness is > > associated with the Physical Body sensory activities or has > > Physical Karma. > > Lastly, extending upon this idea further, there are beings in the Astral cosmos who have never been in Physical forms - We Physical beings are not the only ones in the cycles of creation. While they will still have the idea of " Asmita " in their causal bodies, but they will always be repelled by the grosser-vibrations of Sensual experiences in Physical Bodies/Cosmos, and hence would not incur any Physical Karma due to " Asmita " . > > -------------------------------- > [ TO ALL IN THE LIST ] > - If the above explanation resolves the issue, well and good. Whether it does or doesn't, this is my last mail on this topic because I had said all I had to in the first mail itself - whether you read it or missed it. > You may read a detailed article on this topic that I will write as and when time allows me to do so. > > > [ TO UTPALJI ] > - Am not a jnani. > But there are Jnanis, who know that 6th tattwa doesn't exist. > That is why there is a significant departure. > > [ TO NARASIMHA ] > > > So you are accepting that there as " I-ness of manas " and " I-ness of > chitta " . I-ness=aham-kaara. > > There was never a time that I didn't, and I have no control over what meaning you derive from my words. > > > I still think this is a case of a Pascal language programmer > > unfamiliar with C language misunderstanding some software written > > in C language and passing comments. But unfortunately that > > programmer seems to be hasty in using labels like " flawed " , > > " incorrect " , " incoherent " etc about other programmers whose > > language he is unable to understand. > > The power of mind needs no language to express itself...If a Programmer just understands this much, he will become the Architect! > Also, while a Programmer always assumes that every other person he encounters is a Programmer, an Architect knows that every other person is an Architect in making. Hope you become an Architect one day! > > Regards, > Nitish > > > ---- Narasimha PVR Rao <pvr wrote: > Namaste, > > > " Ahamkara isn't the dominant cause of I-ness in Astral/Causal bodies " > > What a strange statement!! After all, > > aham = I > kaara = ness > ahamkaara = I-ness. > > Thus, ahamkaara *IS* the I-ness of an individualized consciousness. You are talking of ahamkaara being the " cause of " I-ness. But ahamkaara IS the I-ness! > > * * * > > Whether you talk about physical body or subtle body or causal body, I-ness in various layers is still ahamkaara. When ahamkaara binds more to one layer, one looks at oneself primarily from the perspective of that layer. When ahamkaara does not bind to anything at all, one is in nirvikalpa samadhi, i.e. established in Brahman. Ahamkaara or I-ness is a fundamental property of an individualized consciousness and remains as long as there is some individualization. > > * * * > > > THUS, THE BEAUTIFUL ASTRAL SPHERE ARE SENSED BY THE I-NESS OF MANAS, > > while CAUSAL SPHERE ARE SENSED BY THE I-NESS OF CHITTA. > > So you are accepting that there as " I-ness of manas " and " I-ness of chitta " . I-ness=aham-kaara. If we replace I-ness in these terms, we get " ahamkaara of manas " and " ahamkaara of chitta " . When scriptures defined the 19 proerties of individualized consciousness, they only defined one ahamkaara apart from manas, chitta etc and did not define " ahamkaara of manas " and " ahamkaara of chitta " etc. > > For what I termed as ahamkaara (I-ness) working through manas and ahamkaara (I-ness) working through chitta, you are coining new terms like " I-ness of manas " and " I-ness of chitta " because you have this strange notion that ahamkaara is tied to physical body. > > * * * > > > IF THE AHAMKARA IS NOT SUPPRESSED AFTER PHYSICAL DEATH, THE PERSON WILL > > KEEP CARRYING THE SAME EARTHLY IDENTITY TO THE ASTRAL PLANES, AND BRING IT > > BACK AT REBIRTH TO THE EARTH. AND THEN, HE WILL RECLAIM HIS LOST TERRITORY > > AND WEALTH - THE CONFLICTS THAT WILL ARISE WILL BE BEYOND ANYBODY'S CONTROL. > > THUS, THE BEAUTIFUL ASTRAL SPHERE ARE SENSED BY THE I-NESS OF MANAS, > > while CAUSAL SPHERE ARE SENSED BY THE I-NESS OF CHITTA. > > Of course, ahamkaara (I-ness) associating mainly with a physical body is bad. We have no disagreement there. > > The astral sphere may be beautiful to some. But, to a true jnaani, it is a source of problems too, though the problems are lighter than the problems of the physical domain. > > Celestials without physical bodies and having only ethereal bodies have desires too and they are bonded too. > > * * * > > I still think this is a case of a Pascal language programmer unfamiliar with C language misunderstanding some software written in C language and passing comments. But unfortunately that programmer seems to be hasty in using labels like " flawed " , " incorrect " , " incoherent " etc about other programmers whose language he is unable to understand. > > Best regards, > Narasimha > > Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAstrologer.org/homam > Do Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAstrologer.org/tarpana > Spirituality: > Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro.home.comcast.net > Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAstrologer.org > Jyotish writings: JyotishWritings > Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagannath.org > > > , " yeeahoo_99 " <nitish.arya wrote: > > > > || OM TAT SAT || > > Namaskar Rajarshi, > > > > Thanks for your contribution - all you have done is to prove what is already known. > > > > > Therefore, Ahamkara exists even in beyond the death for a normal > > > human being. Therewfore, Ahamkara is present in the astral/casual > > > plane as well. > > > > 1. Do you realize what is being talked about and what you have ended up proving ? Wherein did I deny that Ahamkara is not present in Astral/Causal bodies ? > > > > Ahamkara is an idea in Causal-body, so it is present all the time till the soul is freed of the three body containers. > > > > 2. OTOH, What I have stated, with reference to Patanjali Sutras, is that Ahamkara is " SUPPRESSED " in Astral and Causal bodies. Meaning > > > > " Ahamkara isn't the dominant cause of I-ness in Astral/Causal bodies " > > > > And as a result wouldn't contribute to the acquisition of Astral/Causal Karma. > > > > Why is Ahamkara not dominant in Astral/Causal bodies ? > > The reason I have already given in the first mail in sufficient detail. > > > > IF THE AHAMKARA IS NOT SUPPRESSED AFTER PHYSICAL DEATH, THE PERSON WILL KEEP CARRYING THE SAME EARTHLY IDENTITY TO THE ASTRAL PLANES, AND BRING IT BACK AT REBIRTH TO THE EARTH. AND THEN, HE WILL RECLAIM HIS LOST TERRITORY AND WEALTH - THE CONFLICTS THAT WILL ARISE WILL BE BEYOND ANYBODY'S CONTROL. > > THUS, THE BEAUTIFUL ASTRAL SPHERE ARE SENSED BY THE I-NESS OF MANAS, while CAUSAL SPHERE ARE SENSED BY THE I-NESS OF CHITTA. > > > > Please read more of " Sri Sri Paramahansa Yogananda " , he has mentioned about all these things (what happens to a soul at death and so on) in such a simplistic manner in his Gita commentaries, that even a layman can understand it. > > > > Regards, > > Nitish > > > > , rajarshi nandy <rajarshi14@> wrote: > > > > > > Namaste > > > > > > Proof by Contradiction > > > A person who lives as a farmer, should, after death, remain a farmer in the astral cosmos, and after subsequent astral death, should be reborn as the same farmer with the same name and same identity as in his previous earthly incarnation. > > > > > > Wrong example. > > > > > > A person after his death, depending on his tendencies in this life and level of spiritual evolution will retain some aspects of his personality, which means a person who loves music intensely will also in his next birth have an affinity for music. The conditions of the birth and inbetween period depends both on his inherent samaskaras as well the karmic repurcussion. It not, never, entirely once choice. It a mix and match between what one wants and what one deserves. IN all cases, to be able to retain the samskara Ahamakara is needed. Therefore, Ahamkara exists even in beyond the death for a normal human being. Therewfore, Ahamkara is present in the astral/casual plane as well. > > > > > > > > > Corollary #1: > > > A Devata as an Astral-being has I-ness due to his Manas, and doesn't have Ahamkara for the work done by him in all the various physical bodies. > > > > > > > > > This example becomse invalid since the analysis of the first example itself in incorrect. > > > > > > -Regards > > > Rajarshi > > > > > > > > > > > > The upsurge (of consciousness) is Bhairava - Shiva Sutra > > > > > > --- On Sun, 4/10/09, yeeahoo_99 <nitish.arya@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > yeeahoo_99 <nitish.arya@> > > > Re: Gyan Marga > > > > > > Sunday, 4 October, 2009, 9:40 AM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > || OM TAT SAT || > > > Dear Narasimha and Sundeep, > > > > > > Thanks for your feedback. I thought, I had written a quite clear and explicit mail, but your reply has proved that it needs to be put down in at least 10-fold simpler words. > > > > > > You read my mail, but picked up notions in an incorrect, incoherent manner, and are reading beyond what is written in my mail. > > > > > > To prove my point, I would ask Sundeep to read my previous mail on " Gyan Marg " followed by your reply and see if he also picks up the notions in the same manner as you did ? > > > > > > The only addition required is an example: > > > > > > Your hypothesis > > > Ahamkara is the only I-ness there is for all the beings in all the 3 cosmoses i.e. all the Physical, Astral and Causal-bodied beings. > > > > > > Proof by Contradiction > > > A person who lives as a farmer, should, after death, remain a farmer in the astral cosmos, and after subsequent astral death, should be reborn as the same farmer with the same name and same identity as in his previous earthly incarnation. > > > This is not the case, people don't even remember what they were in previous birth, and start their life afresh in a new earthly body > > > => Contradiction > > > => the original hypothesis is wrong > > > => Ahamkara is not the only sense of I-ness applicable to all beings in all the 3 cosmoses. > > > > > > Inference #1: > > > => Ahamkara is dominant sense of I-ness in Physical Cosmos. > > > => Manas is dominant sense of I-ness in Astral Cosmos. > > > => Chitta is dominant sense of I-ness in Causal Cosmos. > > > > > > Corollary #1: > > > A Devata as an Astral-being has I-ness due to his Manas, and doesn't have Ahamkara for the work done by him in all the various physical bodies. > > > > > > Inference #1 and Corollary #1 is what I had written in my previous mail on this topic. > > > > > > There are many other ways to prove the contradiction on this hypothesis (e.g. Powers of beings in physical cosmos < those in astral cosmos < those in causal cosmos). > > > > > > Your made two additional points that are also invalid. My comments on that is: > > > > > > 1. I-ness derived from Ahamkara,Manas and Chitta has no innate power to Control any other idea of the 35 Causal-ideas. > > > Reason: > > > Soul is the only Truth and controller, everything else has an unreal and derived existence. Thus, all the 35 ideas co-ordinate with each other, and not control each other. > > > > > > 2. A new-born child or a person in Hypnotic-Trance, is able to use his sense-consciousness coherently due to the astral-bodys' sense of I-ness derived from Manas, that coordinates the senses. > > > He has no Buddhi or discriminating faculty to interact with manas (sensory-motor mind) and tell it what to do - as you have proposed. Thus, Manas co-ordinates the senses due to its own sense of I-ness, not due to Buddhi. > > > > > > I hope this clarifies. > > > > > > Regards, > > > Nitish > > > > > > , Narasimha PVR Rao <pvr@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Namaste, > > > > > > > > Out of the 19 or 35 attributes of individualized consciousness, which one gives the idea " I am this " or " I am that " ? Of course, it is ahamkaraka or I-ness or egosense or ego principle! > > > > > > > > Is one's idea of " I am this " limited to a physical body? Of course not! If someone says " so and so person is a terrible person " , one may feel offended or if someone says " so and so person is a great person " , one may feel elated. One's ahamkara or I-ness is identifying with the criticism or praise, even though nothing is being done to the physical body and only a name is being used. When somebody calls one by name from distance (as opposed to patting on the physical body and calling), one's consciousness may still think " I am being called " and one may turn towards the caller. As in these examples, one's I-ness does of course bind itself to more than a body. > > > > > > > > Suppose one gets a dream while sleeping. One may have forgotten totally about the physical body in the dream! One may think of something else as " I " . In dreams, one may see oneself as a different body or may not even " see " onself, but still one may have the sense that so and so thing is happening to " me " . So, even when the mind is drawn away from the physical body, there is still a notion of " I am this " (I-ness) in a dream. That is ahamkara or I-ness or ego principle. > > > > > > > > Your idea that ahamkara is limited to physical body is absolutely unacceptable. Ahamkara or I-ness extends beyond the physical body. > > > > > > > > Also, your idea that deities like Agni do not have ahamkara (I-ness) because they do not have physical bodies is incorrect. Of course, Agni does have an I-ness and thinks " I am Agni and this is what I do " . If he did not have that I-ness, he would not do everything he does. > > > > > > > > Moreover, the 19 or 35 ideas of individualized consciousness do interact with each other, whether we use the word " control " for some of those interactions or not. For example, buddhi (intellectual/ discriminating mind) judges various past experiences, interacts with manas (sensory-motor mind) and tells it what to do. Then manas interacts with karmendriyas (organs of action) and makes them do various things. My buddhi determined what to write and my manas told my hands to type this and I ended up typing. > > > > > > > > Your point about " what exists as a part cannot be the whole " is totally out of place. The sense of I-ness, the memories and conditioning, the logical mind, the sensory-motor mind, karmendriyas etc are all different parts of individualized consciousness and they play different roles while interacting with each other in different ways. Some of those interactions may be deemed to be controls. > > > > > > > > > Am not mixing up the terminologies, though my mail didn't > > > > > go in details. Your understanding is flawed. > > > > > > > > > > 2. Where did you read this up ? > > > > > > > > One does not " read up " these things in a single place. There are different abstractions and breakdowns of what happens in individualized consciousness. There are several sources that speak of different aspects of this knowledge in slightly different terms. One will assimilate this knowledge better if one reads as many sources as possible and contemplates. > > > > > > > > Best regards, > > > > Narasimha > > > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- - > > > > Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ homam > > > > Do Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ tarpana > > > > Spirituality: http://groups. / group/vedic- wisdom > > > > Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro. home.comcast. net > > > > Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAst rologer.org > > > > Jyotish writings: http://groups. / group/JyotishWri tings > > > > Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagan nath.org > > > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- - > > > > > > > > ---- yeeahoo_99 <nitish.arya@ ...> wrote: > > > > > || OM TAT SAT || > > > > > Dear Narasimha, > > > > > Please Ignore my previous-mail, it was not completed - i will try to delete it. > > > > > > > > > > Am not mixing up the terminologies, though my mail didn't go in details. Your understanding is flawed. > > > > > > > > > > 1. All ideas including the idea of Ahamkara naturally belong to the ideational or causal body, but Ahamkara must be overcome only in the physical body (See point 5.). Astral or Causal-bodied beings (those without a physical/astral body) don't have to fight with the idea of Ahamkara like we do. > > > > > > > > > > > Ahamkaara/ego controls manas and buddhi also. When manas (sensory- > > > > > > ...they are all guided by the sense of I-ness. That sense of I-ness > > > > > > permeates through all layers of one's individualized consciousness. > > > > > > > > > > 2. Where did you read this up ? > > > > > > > > > > There is a fine line between the sense of I-ness attributed to the Individual Soul and the sense of I-ness derived through the idea of Ahamkara. Even after a Soul is freed of the three bodies, the individuality of the Soul Atom is not destroyed (Resurrection implies that), while it has already given up the idea of Ahamkara including all other ideas. > > > > > > > > > > Individuality of a causal-bodied being is not due to the idea of Ahamkara because " What exists as a part cannot be the whole " . Thus, the idea of Ahamkara, being one of the 35 ideas of the Causal-body, doesn't account for neither controls the rest of the 34 ideas. Each idea is independent of another, without requiring another idea to act upon it - otherwise your buddhi would always interfere with the functioning of Mind or Ahamkara or the 5 functions of life-forces and so on. > > > > > > > > > > Essentially, the 35 ideas of causal body are the basic causal forces and are not related as cause-effect to each other. Thus, each is independent of the application of the sense of I-ness derived from Ahamkara. Manas and Buddhi being two of the Causal-ideas, their functioning as well as existence is not " controlled " nor " derived " in any way by the idea of Ahamkara. It is very clear when we see those with sharpest Buddhi or Sharpest Mind still carrying Heaviest Ahamkara, because they didn't work upon that particular idea. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But ego/ahamkaara/ I-ness is the very basis of the entire > > > > > > individualized consciousness. > > > > > > > > > > 3. Well, as most Physical-bodied beings cannot see through the Astral/causal cosmoses, it doesn't apply in the same way to the finer Astral and Causal-bodied beings who can always pierce the veil of Maya and see the human activities. Thus, what is " the very basis " of the entire individualized consciousness for a physical-bodied (unenlightened) being is not the same as for an astral/causal bodied being. > > > > > An Astral-bodied being thinks of Manas/sense- consciousness as the very basis of the entire individualized consciousness. > > > > > A Causal-bodied being thinks of Chitta/perceptive- consciousness as the very basis of the entire individualized consciousness. > > > > > However, that individuality is of the Soul not derived from any idea, which is why it is not lost when the Astral being loses astral consciousness and reincarnates in the Physical body. > > > > > > > > > > As an example, Devatas, with their finer bodies, are able to work through all the beings in all their physical-bodies simultaneously (like Ganesh resides in the Mooladhara, Agni digests the food, and so on..), never getting controlled by Ahamkara that would require them to say that this particular body is " my body " or that one is mine - unless they incarnate in Physical bodies themselves. Devatas are, however, Astral/Causal- bodied beings, so they would attempt to influence the Manas (Spirit-Possession) of the sense-bound worshipper. Pretas on the other hand, would attempt to possess ones' physical body as well as act out their Ahamkara. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Out of the four antahkaranas, chitta (remembering or conditioned > > > > > > mind) and ahamkaara (ego or I-ness) are parts of the kaarana > > > > > > sareera (causal body) and remain till the end. > > > > > > > > > > 4. As per the resurrected Soul of Sri Yukteswar in Autobiography of a Yogi - > > > > > > > > > > Causal body is a matrix of 35 ideas, that include 19 ideas comprising Astral body (Chitta, Manas, Buddhi, Ahamkara, 5 functions of knowledge, 5 functions of Action, 5 functions of life-force) and 16 ideas comprising Physical body (16 chemical elements). > > > > > > > > > > Now, as we all know that Physical body expires as a whole, not just one or two of the 16 elements comprising it go away at a time, Astral and Causal bodies are also cast off as a whole in the corresponding cosmic consciousness - instead of different constituent ideas slipping out of it at different times. Chitta being the staging idea for all other modifications, can be termed as the last to go, when the causal body is finally dropped - hence I wrote as rising above Chitta. > > > > > > > > > > Thus, the idea of Ahamkara is bound with Gross Physical vibrations, > > > > > Manas with Subtle Astral vibrations and > > > > > Chitta with infinitely Subtle Causal Vibrations. > > > > > > > > > > Buddhi being another variable, can be developed or undeveloped irrespective of the other 34. Even illiterate Moodha, through surrender to their Guru, attain freedom from Ahamkara and so on... > > > > > > > > > > BTW, Chitta is not the Conditioned Mind. Chitta does store the residual impressions of all the past incarnations. However, being constituted of Satwa Guna, it doesn't have any inherent ability to act upon (Rajas) those impressions, just like a container containing an inflammable liquid doesn't automatically burn it down. Sadhana is required for That. > > > > > The Samskaras stored by Chitta, including those of Nidra, Smriti, Vikalpa, Viparyaya, Pramana, correspond to the Tamo Guna, while the Chitta itself is Satva Guna - hence the " Satvic - Tamas " represents the SuperEther tattwa (refer my previous mail). The all-perceiving Satvic Chitta doesn't get conditioned by the Tamo-guni Samskaras it stores. > > > > > Once the Chitta calms down, cleared of all residual impressions, only Satva Guna remains, the intuition becomes coherent and the Soul reflects on itself as distinct from Satva Guna of Prakriti (Chitta), thus realizing its own nature as Brahman. > > > > > > > > > > 5. > > > > > In Patanjali Yoga Sutras: > > > > > drigadarshanaktyore katmataivasmita -6 > > > > > Egoism is the identification of the seer with the instrument of seeing. Patanjali has used Asmita instead of Ahamkara. > > > > > Since astral-bodied beings can use any of the senses like eyes to see, hear, smell, taste and so on (refer Autobiography of a Yogi)... the sense of egoism does not take roots in the astral-body and hence doesn't create Astral Karma. Similarly, Causal bodied beings can use thought to sense everything. > > > > > > > > > > Hence, Egotism has to be rooted out while the consciousness is associated with the Physical Body sensory activities or has Physical Karma. > > > > > > > > > > 6. The idea of Manas, as the controller of sense-consciousness , must be overcome in Astral body, through Vairagya. Read autobiography of a Yogi (chapter 43) where Sri Yukteswar illustrates that only those beings who cannot be tempted to go back to the pleasing to the eye Astral cosmos are permitted to stay permanently in the Causal cosmos. Pleasing to the eye implies Sense-consciousness which is associated with Manas. > > > > > > > > > > In Patanjali Yoga Sutras also it is mentioned in the same manner : > > > > > > > > > > dristanushravika vishaya vitrishnasya vashikara samjnavairagyam -15- > > > > > > > > > > That effect which comes to these who have given up their thirst after objects, either seen or heard, and which wills to control the objects, is non-attachment. Vivekananda has commented that Vairagya is the only way to freedom. > > > > > > > > > > This is to be accomplished by transferring the consciousness to Astral-Body and working out the Astral Karma or otherwise as an astral-bodied being. > > > > > > > > > > 7. Patanjali Yoga Sutras: > > > > > yogashchittavrittin irodhah -2- > > > > > Thus, extinguishing all the movements of Chitta is called " Yoga " . > > > > > > > > > > This is to be accomplished by transferring the consciousness to Causal-Body and working out the Causal Karma or otherwise as a causal-bodied being. > > > > > > > > > > I hope this clarifies. > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > Nitish Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 5, 2009 Report Share Posted October 5, 2009 My mail may be out of context in this thread. I noticed few statements, which I thought, I will understand a bit more deeper. I remembering seeing a statement similar to " Agni has I-ness too. Otherwise, Agni does not do what he does " (from Narasimha). I thought, Agni is a deva. Is Agni aware of the ultimate truth? Does he get entangled in the karma? If Agni, is a jeevan muktha, then, even if he shares the same I-ness of the Brahman, can not he act and do things since he knows Brahman wants him to do those? Best regards, Vijay , Narasimha PVR Rao <pvr wrote: > > Namaste, > > This is excellent - your terminology seems to be evolving and getting refined now. At one stage, you said " Ahamkara isn't the dominant cause of I-ness in Astral/Causal bodies " , while I was saying ahamkara=I-ness. Now, you wrote: > > > PHYSICAL I-NESS (AHAMKARA) = ASMITA = Physical Egotism > > ASTRAL I-NESS (AHAMKARA) = MANAS = Astral attachments > > CAUSAL I-NESS (AHAMKARA) = CHITTA = Causal Perceptions > > So you are acknowledging that I-ness and ahamkara are synonyms and referring to ahamkara at astral and causal planes. It is good that you are slowly converging! > > * * * > > I did not want to divert from the upanishadic terminology of 19 ideas of individualized consciousness. So I stuck to the term ahamkaara and ignored your references to Patanjali. Now that there is some convergence on " ahamkaara " , let me address " asmita " mentioned in Patanjali yoga sutras. > > > identification of the seer with the instrument of > > seeing i.e. Physical senses. > > You are assuming that physical senses or physical body is the only instrument of seeing (or experiencing). > > However, mind can see, hear, feel and experience things even when it is not working with a physical body and physical senses. For example, one's mind may " see " something in a dream without the physical eyes seeing anything. > > Also, a yogi in deep meditation may see, hear, feel or experience something without the involvement of eyes, ears and other physical senses. > > If such a yogi identifies with the instrument of that experience, i.e. the mind, that too is asmita as per Patanjali's yoga sutra that you quoted. Just as I had an issue earlier with your limiting of ahamkaara to physical body, I also have an issue with your limiting of asmita to physical body. > > BTW, identification with physical body *as well as* identification with mind block one from yoga (communion) with true Self. Both are due to ahamkaara as defined by upanishads. Both are due to asmita as defined by Patanjali. > > Best regards, > Narasimha > > Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAstrologer.org/homam > Do Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAstrologer.org/tarpana > Spirituality: > Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro.home.comcast.net > Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAstrologer.org > Jyotish writings: JyotishWritings > Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagannath.org > > > ---- yeeahoo_99 <nitish.arya wrote: > > || OM TAT SAT || > > Dear Utpalji and Narasimha, > > > > If any of you is offended due to my being explicit with words - it also shows that you people have a lot of scope in learning of new ideas! > > > > > The second statement says something radical. Ahamkaara and I Ness > > > is completely two different identity. > > > your second statment is a departure from almost every Gnyaani has > > > to say. > > > > It is none of my fault that this conflict arose and continues. Here is the reason. > > > > In my first mail (#2704) itself it is explicitly written, that Patanjali has used the exact word " asmita " for Egoism - which is the I-ness (Ahamkara) in Physical body consciousness - that causes identification of the seer with the instrument of seeing i.e. Physical senses. > > > > > In Patanjali Yoga Sutras: > > > drigadarshanaktyorekatmataivasmita -6 > > > Egoism is the identification of the seer with the instrument of > > > seeing. > > > > >>> Patanjali has used Asmita instead of Ahamkara. > > > > > > PATANJALI has not used the word AHAMKARA anywhere in his PRECISE AND ESTEEMED sanskrit dissertation on YOGA - he has chosen to use the word ASMITA everywhere. E.g. > > > > 1. vitarka vicharanandasmita rupanugamat samprajnatah - > > > > SASMITA SAMADHI > > > > 2. From Lahiri Mahasayas' Commentary on Patanjali - > > > > avidyasmitaragadveshabhinibeshah panchakleshah > > > > " Avidya " [ignorance], " asmita " [egotism], " raga " [attraction or > > liking], " dvesha " [hatred or disliking] and " abhinibesha " [engrossment] -- these are the five types of afflictions. > > > > Thus, using " Ahamkara " while talking about Sankhya and using " Asmita " while talking about Patanjali Sutras brought in the conflict. In any case, what is called as Ahamkara in 24 principles of Sankhya is actually Asmita, which can be very-loosely pitted as Ahamkara. > > > > The idea stated by me was on firm grounds - with reference to Patanjali Sutras and the words of Sri Yukteswar in Autobiography of a Yogi. And this idea is there in my first mail, though not the exact table: > > > > PHYSICAL I-NESS (AHAMKARA) = ASMITA = Physical Egotism > > ASTRAL I-NESS (AHAMKARA) = MANAS = Astral attachments > > CAUSAL I-NESS (AHAMKARA) = CHITTA = Causal Perceptions > > > > Also, one of the 2 reasons that I had given on why Astral/Causal Body beings don't have sense of Asmita as a dominant sense of I-ness is this: > > > > > Since astral-bodied beings can use any of the senses like eyes to > > > see, hear, smell, taste and so on (refer Autobiography of a > > > Yogi)... the sense of egoism does not take roots in the astral-body > and hence doesn't create Astral Karma. > > > Similarly, Causal bodied beings can use thought to sense everything. > > > > > Hence, Egotism has to be rooted out while the consciousness is > > > associated with the Physical Body sensory activities or has > > > Physical Karma. > > > > Lastly, extending upon this idea further, there are beings in the Astral cosmos who have never been in Physical forms - We Physical beings are not the only ones in the cycles of creation. While they will still have the idea of " Asmita " in their causal bodies, but they will always be repelled by the grosser-vibrations of Sensual experiences in Physical Bodies/Cosmos, and hence would not incur any Physical Karma due to " Asmita " . > > > > -------------------------------- > > [ TO ALL IN THE LIST ] > > - If the above explanation resolves the issue, well and good. Whether it does or doesn't, this is my last mail on this topic because I had said all I had to in the first mail itself - whether you read it or missed it. > > You may read a detailed article on this topic that I will write as and when time allows me to do so. > > > > > > [ TO UTPALJI ] > > - Am not a jnani. > > But there are Jnanis, who know that 6th tattwa doesn't exist. > > That is why there is a significant departure. > > > > [ TO NARASIMHA ] > > > > > So you are accepting that there as " I-ness of manas " and " I-ness of > chitta " . I-ness=aham-kaara. > > > > There was never a time that I didn't, and I have no control over what meaning you derive from my words. > > > > > I still think this is a case of a Pascal language programmer > > > unfamiliar with C language misunderstanding some software written > > > in C language and passing comments. But unfortunately that > > > programmer seems to be hasty in using labels like " flawed " , > > > " incorrect " , " incoherent " etc about other programmers whose > > > language he is unable to understand. > > > > The power of mind needs no language to express itself...If a Programmer just understands this much, he will become the Architect! > > Also, while a Programmer always assumes that every other person he encounters is a Programmer, an Architect knows that every other person is an Architect in making. Hope you become an Architect one day! > > > > Regards, > > Nitish > > > > > > ---- Narasimha PVR Rao <pvr wrote: > > Namaste, > > > > > " Ahamkara isn't the dominant cause of I-ness in Astral/Causal bodies " > > > > What a strange statement!! After all, > > > > aham = I > > kaara = ness > > ahamkaara = I-ness. > > > > Thus, ahamkaara *IS* the I-ness of an individualized consciousness. You are talking of ahamkaara being the " cause of " I-ness. But ahamkaara IS the I-ness! > > > > * * * > > > > Whether you talk about physical body or subtle body or causal body, I-ness in various layers is still ahamkaara. When ahamkaara binds more to one layer, one looks at oneself primarily from the perspective of that layer. When ahamkaara does not bind to anything at all, one is in nirvikalpa samadhi, i.e. established in Brahman. Ahamkaara or I-ness is a fundamental property of an individualized consciousness and remains as long as there is some individualization. > > > > * * * > > > > > THUS, THE BEAUTIFUL ASTRAL SPHERE ARE SENSED BY THE I-NESS OF MANAS, > > > while CAUSAL SPHERE ARE SENSED BY THE I-NESS OF CHITTA. > > > > So you are accepting that there as " I-ness of manas " and " I-ness of chitta " . I-ness=aham-kaara. If we replace I-ness in these terms, we get " ahamkaara of manas " and " ahamkaara of chitta " . When scriptures defined the 19 proerties of individualized consciousness, they only defined one ahamkaara apart from manas, chitta etc and did not define " ahamkaara of manas " and " ahamkaara of chitta " etc. > > > > For what I termed as ahamkaara (I-ness) working through manas and ahamkaara (I-ness) working through chitta, you are coining new terms like " I-ness of manas " and " I-ness of chitta " because you have this strange notion that ahamkaara is tied to physical body. > > > > * * * > > > > > IF THE AHAMKARA IS NOT SUPPRESSED AFTER PHYSICAL DEATH, THE PERSON WILL > > > KEEP CARRYING THE SAME EARTHLY IDENTITY TO THE ASTRAL PLANES, AND BRING IT > > > BACK AT REBIRTH TO THE EARTH. AND THEN, HE WILL RECLAIM HIS LOST TERRITORY > > > AND WEALTH - THE CONFLICTS THAT WILL ARISE WILL BE BEYOND ANYBODY'S CONTROL. > > > THUS, THE BEAUTIFUL ASTRAL SPHERE ARE SENSED BY THE I-NESS OF MANAS, > > > while CAUSAL SPHERE ARE SENSED BY THE I-NESS OF CHITTA. > > > > Of course, ahamkaara (I-ness) associating mainly with a physical body is bad. We have no disagreement there. > > > > The astral sphere may be beautiful to some. But, to a true jnaani, it is a source of problems too, though the problems are lighter than the problems of the physical domain. > > > > Celestials without physical bodies and having only ethereal bodies have desires too and they are bonded too. > > > > * * * > > > > I still think this is a case of a Pascal language programmer unfamiliar with C language misunderstanding some software written in C language and passing comments. But unfortunately that programmer seems to be hasty in using labels like " flawed " , " incorrect " , " incoherent " etc about other programmers whose language he is unable to understand. > > > > Best regards, > > Narasimha > > > > Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAstrologer.org/homam > > Do Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAstrologer.org/tarpana > > Spirituality: > > Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro.home.comcast.net > > Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAstrologer.org > > Jyotish writings: JyotishWritings > > Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagannath.org > > > > > > , " yeeahoo_99 " <nitish.arya@> wrote: > > > > > > || OM TAT SAT || > > > Namaskar Rajarshi, > > > > > > Thanks for your contribution - all you have done is to prove what is already known. > > > > > > > Therefore, Ahamkara exists even in beyond the death for a normal > > > > human being. Therewfore, Ahamkara is present in the astral/casual > > > > plane as well. > > > > > > 1. Do you realize what is being talked about and what you have ended up proving ? Wherein did I deny that Ahamkara is not present in Astral/Causal bodies ? > > > > > > Ahamkara is an idea in Causal-body, so it is present all the time till the soul is freed of the three body containers. > > > > > > 2. OTOH, What I have stated, with reference to Patanjali Sutras, is that Ahamkara is " SUPPRESSED " in Astral and Causal bodies. Meaning > > > > > > " Ahamkara isn't the dominant cause of I-ness in Astral/Causal bodies " > > > > > > And as a result wouldn't contribute to the acquisition of Astral/Causal Karma. > > > > > > Why is Ahamkara not dominant in Astral/Causal bodies ? > > > The reason I have already given in the first mail in sufficient detail. > > > > > > IF THE AHAMKARA IS NOT SUPPRESSED AFTER PHYSICAL DEATH, THE PERSON WILL KEEP CARRYING THE SAME EARTHLY IDENTITY TO THE ASTRAL PLANES, AND BRING IT BACK AT REBIRTH TO THE EARTH. AND THEN, HE WILL RECLAIM HIS LOST TERRITORY AND WEALTH - THE CONFLICTS THAT WILL ARISE WILL BE BEYOND ANYBODY'S CONTROL. > > > THUS, THE BEAUTIFUL ASTRAL SPHERE ARE SENSED BY THE I-NESS OF MANAS, while CAUSAL SPHERE ARE SENSED BY THE I-NESS OF CHITTA. > > > > > > Please read more of " Sri Sri Paramahansa Yogananda " , he has mentioned about all these things (what happens to a soul at death and so on) in such a simplistic manner in his Gita commentaries, that even a layman can understand it. > > > > > > Regards, > > > Nitish > > > > > > , rajarshi nandy <rajarshi14@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Namaste > > > > > > > > Proof by Contradiction > > > > A person who lives as a farmer, should, after death, remain a farmer in the astral cosmos, and after subsequent astral death, should be reborn as the same farmer with the same name and same identity as in his previous earthly incarnation. > > > > > > > > Wrong example. > > > > > > > > A person after his death, depending on his tendencies in this life and level of spiritual evolution will retain some aspects of his personality, which means a person who loves music intensely will also in his next birth have an affinity for music. The conditions of the birth and inbetween period depends both on his inherent samaskaras as well the karmic repurcussion. It not, never, entirely once choice. It a mix and match between what one wants and what one deserves. IN all cases, to be able to retain the samskara Ahamakara is needed. Therefore, Ahamkara exists even in beyond the death for a normal human being. Therewfore, Ahamkara is present in the astral/casual plane as well. > > > > > > > > > > > > Corollary #1: > > > > A Devata as an Astral-being has I-ness due to his Manas, and doesn't have Ahamkara for the work done by him in all the various physical bodies. > > > > > > > > > > > > This example becomse invalid since the analysis of the first example itself in incorrect. > > > > > > > > -Regards > > > > Rajarshi > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The upsurge (of consciousness) is Bhairava - Shiva Sutra > > > > > > > > --- On Sun, 4/10/09, yeeahoo_99 <nitish.arya@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > yeeahoo_99 <nitish.arya@> > > > > Re: Gyan Marga > > > > > > > > Sunday, 4 October, 2009, 9:40 AM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > || OM TAT SAT || > > > > Dear Narasimha and Sundeep, > > > > > > > > Thanks for your feedback. I thought, I had written a quite clear and explicit mail, but your reply has proved that it needs to be put down in at least 10-fold simpler words. > > > > > > > > You read my mail, but picked up notions in an incorrect, incoherent manner, and are reading beyond what is written in my mail. > > > > > > > > To prove my point, I would ask Sundeep to read my previous mail on " Gyan Marg " followed by your reply and see if he also picks up the notions in the same manner as you did ? > > > > > > > > The only addition required is an example: > > > > > > > > Your hypothesis > > > > Ahamkara is the only I-ness there is for all the beings in all the 3 cosmoses i.e. all the Physical, Astral and Causal-bodied beings. > > > > > > > > Proof by Contradiction > > > > A person who lives as a farmer, should, after death, remain a farmer in the astral cosmos, and after subsequent astral death, should be reborn as the same farmer with the same name and same identity as in his previous earthly incarnation. > > > > This is not the case, people don't even remember what they were in previous birth, and start their life afresh in a new earthly body > > > > => Contradiction > > > > => the original hypothesis is wrong > > > > => Ahamkara is not the only sense of I-ness applicable to all beings in all the 3 cosmoses. > > > > > > > > Inference #1: > > > > => Ahamkara is dominant sense of I-ness in Physical Cosmos. > > > > => Manas is dominant sense of I-ness in Astral Cosmos. > > > > => Chitta is dominant sense of I-ness in Causal Cosmos. > > > > > > > > Corollary #1: > > > > A Devata as an Astral-being has I-ness due to his Manas, and doesn't have Ahamkara for the work done by him in all the various physical bodies. > > > > > > > > Inference #1 and Corollary #1 is what I had written in my previous mail on this topic. > > > > > > > > There are many other ways to prove the contradiction on this hypothesis (e.g. Powers of beings in physical cosmos < those in astral cosmos < those in causal cosmos). > > > > > > > > Your made two additional points that are also invalid. My comments on that is: > > > > > > > > 1. I-ness derived from Ahamkara,Manas and Chitta has no innate power to Control any other idea of the 35 Causal-ideas. > > > > Reason: > > > > Soul is the only Truth and controller, everything else has an unreal and derived existence. Thus, all the 35 ideas co-ordinate with each other, and not control each other. > > > > > > > > 2. A new-born child or a person in Hypnotic-Trance, is able to use his sense-consciousness coherently due to the astral-bodys' sense of I-ness derived from Manas, that coordinates the senses. > > > > He has no Buddhi or discriminating faculty to interact with manas (sensory-motor mind) and tell it what to do - as you have proposed. Thus, Manas co-ordinates the senses due to its own sense of I-ness, not due to Buddhi. > > > > > > > > I hope this clarifies. > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > Nitish > > > > > > > > , Narasimha PVR Rao <pvr@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Namaste, > > > > > > > > > > Out of the 19 or 35 attributes of individualized consciousness, which one gives the idea " I am this " or " I am that " ? Of course, it is ahamkaraka or I-ness or egosense or ego principle! > > > > > > > > > > Is one's idea of " I am this " limited to a physical body? Of course not! If someone says " so and so person is a terrible person " , one may feel offended or if someone says " so and so person is a great person " , one may feel elated. One's ahamkara or I-ness is identifying with the criticism or praise, even though nothing is being done to the physical body and only a name is being used. When somebody calls one by name from distance (as opposed to patting on the physical body and calling), one's consciousness may still think " I am being called " and one may turn towards the caller. As in these examples, one's I-ness does of course bind itself to more than a body. > > > > > > > > > > Suppose one gets a dream while sleeping. One may have forgotten totally about the physical body in the dream! One may think of something else as " I " . In dreams, one may see oneself as a different body or may not even " see " onself, but still one may have the sense that so and so thing is happening to " me " . So, even when the mind is drawn away from the physical body, there is still a notion of " I am this " (I-ness) in a dream. That is ahamkara or I-ness or ego principle. > > > > > > > > > > Your idea that ahamkara is limited to physical body is absolutely unacceptable. Ahamkara or I-ness extends beyond the physical body. > > > > > > > > > > Also, your idea that deities like Agni do not have ahamkara (I-ness) because they do not have physical bodies is incorrect. Of course, Agni does have an I-ness and thinks " I am Agni and this is what I do " . If he did not have that I-ness, he would not do everything he does. > > > > > > > > > > Moreover, the 19 or 35 ideas of individualized consciousness do interact with each other, whether we use the word " control " for some of those interactions or not. For example, buddhi (intellectual/ discriminating mind) judges various past experiences, interacts with manas (sensory-motor mind) and tells it what to do. Then manas interacts with karmendriyas (organs of action) and makes them do various things. My buddhi determined what to write and my manas told my hands to type this and I ended up typing. > > > > > > > > > > Your point about " what exists as a part cannot be the whole " is totally out of place. The sense of I-ness, the memories and conditioning, the logical mind, the sensory-motor mind, karmendriyas etc are all different parts of individualized consciousness and they play different roles while interacting with each other in different ways. Some of those interactions may be deemed to be controls. > > > > > > > > > > > Am not mixing up the terminologies, though my mail didn't > > > > > > go in details. Your understanding is flawed. > > > > > > > > > > > > 2. Where did you read this up ? > > > > > > > > > > One does not " read up " these things in a single place. There are different abstractions and breakdowns of what happens in individualized consciousness. There are several sources that speak of different aspects of this knowledge in slightly different terms. One will assimilate this knowledge better if one reads as many sources as possible and contemplates. > > > > > > > > > > Best regards, > > > > > Narasimha > > > > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- - > > > > > Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ homam > > > > > Do Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ tarpana > > > > > Spirituality: http://groups. / group/vedic- wisdom > > > > > Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro. home.comcast. net > > > > > Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAst rologer.org > > > > > Jyotish writings: http://groups. / group/JyotishWri tings > > > > > Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagan nath.org > > > > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- - > > > > > > > > > > ---- yeeahoo_99 <nitish.arya@ ...> wrote: > > > > > > || OM TAT SAT || > > > > > > Dear Narasimha, > > > > > > Please Ignore my previous-mail, it was not completed - i will try to delete it. > > > > > > > > > > > > Am not mixing up the terminologies, though my mail didn't go in details. Your understanding is flawed. > > > > > > > > > > > > 1. All ideas including the idea of Ahamkara naturally belong to the ideational or causal body, but Ahamkara must be overcome only in the physical body (See point 5.). Astral or Causal-bodied beings (those without a physical/astral body) don't have to fight with the idea of Ahamkara like we do. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ahamkaara/ego controls manas and buddhi also. When manas (sensory- > > > > > > > ...they are all guided by the sense of I-ness. That sense of I-ness > > > > > > > permeates through all layers of one's individualized consciousness. > > > > > > > > > > > > 2. Where did you read this up ? > > > > > > > > > > > > There is a fine line between the sense of I-ness attributed to the Individual Soul and the sense of I-ness derived through the idea of Ahamkara. Even after a Soul is freed of the three bodies, the individuality of the Soul Atom is not destroyed (Resurrection implies that), while it has already given up the idea of Ahamkara including all other ideas. > > > > > > > > > > > > Individuality of a causal-bodied being is not due to the idea of Ahamkara because " What exists as a part cannot be the whole " . Thus, the idea of Ahamkara, being one of the 35 ideas of the Causal-body, doesn't account for neither controls the rest of the 34 ideas. Each idea is independent of another, without requiring another idea to act upon it - otherwise your buddhi would always interfere with the functioning of Mind or Ahamkara or the 5 functions of life-forces and so on. > > > > > > > > > > > > Essentially, the 35 ideas of causal body are the basic causal forces and are not related as cause-effect to each other. Thus, each is independent of the application of the sense of I-ness derived from Ahamkara. Manas and Buddhi being two of the Causal-ideas, their functioning as well as existence is not " controlled " nor " derived " in any way by the idea of Ahamkara. It is very clear when we see those with sharpest Buddhi or Sharpest Mind still carrying Heaviest Ahamkara, because they didn't work upon that particular idea. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But ego/ahamkaara/ I-ness is the very basis of the entire > > > > > > > individualized consciousness. > > > > > > > > > > > > 3. Well, as most Physical-bodied beings cannot see through the Astral/causal cosmoses, it doesn't apply in the same way to the finer Astral and Causal-bodied beings who can always pierce the veil of Maya and see the human activities. Thus, what is " the very basis " of the entire individualized consciousness for a physical-bodied (unenlightened) being is not the same as for an astral/causal bodied being. > > > > > > An Astral-bodied being thinks of Manas/sense- consciousness as the very basis of the entire individualized consciousness. > > > > > > A Causal-bodied being thinks of Chitta/perceptive- consciousness as the very basis of the entire individualized consciousness. > > > > > > However, that individuality is of the Soul not derived from any idea, which is why it is not lost when the Astral being loses astral consciousness and reincarnates in the Physical body. > > > > > > > > > > > > As an example, Devatas, with their finer bodies, are able to work through all the beings in all their physical-bodies simultaneously (like Ganesh resides in the Mooladhara, Agni digests the food, and so on..), never getting controlled by Ahamkara that would require them to say that this particular body is " my body " or that one is mine - unless they incarnate in Physical bodies themselves. Devatas are, however, Astral/Causal- bodied beings, so they would attempt to influence the Manas (Spirit-Possession) of the sense-bound worshipper. Pretas on the other hand, would attempt to possess ones' physical body as well as act out their Ahamkara. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Out of the four antahkaranas, chitta (remembering or conditioned > > > > > > > mind) and ahamkaara (ego or I-ness) are parts of the kaarana > > > > > > > sareera (causal body) and remain till the end. > > > > > > > > > > > > 4. As per the resurrected Soul of Sri Yukteswar in Autobiography of a Yogi - > > > > > > > > > > > > Causal body is a matrix of 35 ideas, that include 19 ideas comprising Astral body (Chitta, Manas, Buddhi, Ahamkara, 5 functions of knowledge, 5 functions of Action, 5 functions of life-force) and 16 ideas comprising Physical body (16 chemical elements). > > > > > > > > > > > > Now, as we all know that Physical body expires as a whole, not just one or two of the 16 elements comprising it go away at a time, Astral and Causal bodies are also cast off as a whole in the corresponding cosmic consciousness - instead of different constituent ideas slipping out of it at different times. Chitta being the staging idea for all other modifications, can be termed as the last to go, when the causal body is finally dropped - hence I wrote as rising above Chitta. > > > > > > > > > > > > Thus, the idea of Ahamkara is bound with Gross Physical vibrations, > > > > > > Manas with Subtle Astral vibrations and > > > > > > Chitta with infinitely Subtle Causal Vibrations. > > > > > > > > > > > > Buddhi being another variable, can be developed or undeveloped irrespective of the other 34. Even illiterate Moodha, through surrender to their Guru, attain freedom from Ahamkara and so on... > > > > > > > > > > > > BTW, Chitta is not the Conditioned Mind. Chitta does store the residual impressions of all the past incarnations. However, being constituted of Satwa Guna, it doesn't have any inherent ability to act upon (Rajas) those impressions, just like a container containing an inflammable liquid doesn't automatically burn it down. Sadhana is required for That. > > > > > > The Samskaras stored by Chitta, including those of Nidra, Smriti, Vikalpa, Viparyaya, Pramana, correspond to the Tamo Guna, while the Chitta itself is Satva Guna - hence the " Satvic - Tamas " represents the SuperEther tattwa (refer my previous mail). The all-perceiving Satvic Chitta doesn't get conditioned by the Tamo-guni Samskaras it stores. > > > > > > Once the Chitta calms down, cleared of all residual impressions, only Satva Guna remains, the intuition becomes coherent and the Soul reflects on itself as distinct from Satva Guna of Prakriti (Chitta), thus realizing its own nature as Brahman. > > > > > > > > > > > > 5. > > > > > > In Patanjali Yoga Sutras: > > > > > > drigadarshanaktyore katmataivasmita -6 > > > > > > Egoism is the identification of the seer with the instrument of seeing. Patanjali has used Asmita instead of Ahamkara. > > > > > > Since astral-bodied beings can use any of the senses like eyes to see, hear, smell, taste and so on (refer Autobiography of a Yogi)... the sense of egoism does not take roots in the astral-body and hence doesn't create Astral Karma. Similarly, Causal bodied beings can use thought to sense everything. > > > > > > > > > > > > Hence, Egotism has to be rooted out while the consciousness is associated with the Physical Body sensory activities or has Physical Karma. > > > > > > > > > > > > 6. The idea of Manas, as the controller of sense-consciousness , must be overcome in Astral body, through Vairagya. Read autobiography of a Yogi (chapter 43) where Sri Yukteswar illustrates that only those beings who cannot be tempted to go back to the pleasing to the eye Astral cosmos are permitted to stay permanently in the Causal cosmos. Pleasing to the eye implies Sense-consciousness which is associated with Manas. > > > > > > > > > > > > In Patanjali Yoga Sutras also it is mentioned in the same manner : > > > > > > > > > > > > dristanushravika vishaya vitrishnasya vashikara samjnavairagyam -15- > > > > > > > > > > > > That effect which comes to these who have given up their thirst after objects, either seen or heard, and which wills to control the objects, is non-attachment. Vivekananda has commented that Vairagya is the only way to freedom. > > > > > > > > > > > > This is to be accomplished by transferring the consciousness to Astral-Body and working out the Astral Karma or otherwise as an astral-bodied being. > > > > > > > > > > > > 7. Patanjali Yoga Sutras: > > > > > > yogashchittavrittin irodhah -2- > > > > > > Thus, extinguishing all the movements of Chitta is called " Yoga " . > > > > > > > > > > > > This is to be accomplished by transferring the consciousness to Causal-Body and working out the Causal Karma or otherwise as a causal-bodied being. > > > > > > > > > > > > I hope this clarifies. > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > Nitish > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 5, 2009 Report Share Posted October 5, 2009 Namaste Nitish Check below. -Regards Rajarshi The upsurge (of consciousness) is Bhairava - Shiva Sutra--- On Sun, 4/10/09, yeeahoo_99 <nitish.arya wrote: yeeahoo_99 <nitish.arya Re: Gyan Marga Date: Sunday, 4 October, 2009, 4:45 PM || OM TAT SAT ||Namaskar Rajarshi,Thanks for your contribution - all you have done is to prove what is already known. You had already, during you very first mail stated that everything is already known. So then why are you wastingme here? - > Therefore, Ahamkara exists even in beyond the death for a normal > human being. Therewfore, Ahamkara is present in the astral/casual > plane as well.1. Do you realize what is being talked about and what you have ended up proving ? Maybe, most people here realize it better than you do! Thats what makes your statements sound so incorrigible funny to say the least. Wherein did I deny that Ahamkara is not present in Astral/Causal bodies ? You did deny it quite vehemently. Kindly check yourolder mails. You make a statement A then in the course of discussion you conveniently change it to B and then jump around assuming ridiculous airs. At least, try and remember what you yourself speak. Go back and re check you own mails here.Why is Ahamkara not dominant in Astral/Causal bodies ?The reason I have already given in the first mail in sufficient detail. Thats again your assumption. Ahamkara is indeed a dominant force in all planes untill one reaches a state beyond ego. BRING IT BACK AT REBIRTH TO THE EARTH. AND THEN, HE WILL RECLAIM HIS LOST TERRITORY AND WEALTH - THE CONFLICTS THAT WILL ARISE WILL BE BEYOND ANYBODY'S CONTROL. This shows that you have not understood even 1 percent of what has been told to you till now by other in this forum, maybe because you have already decided to close your mind. Ahamkara is NOT confied to acquiring or not acquiring of weath. THE specifics will depend on the law of karma. The essential sense of I-ness will very much remain in ALL planes, the speciifcs gets filled in by karmic repurcussions and desires. THUS, THE BEAUTIFUL ASTRAL SPHERE ARE SENSED BY THE I-NESS OF MANAS, while CAUSAL SPHERE ARE SENSED BY THE I-NESS OF CHITTA. Any I-ness is Ahamkara. Period. i Sri Paramahansa Yogananda", he has mentioned about all these things (what happens to a soul at death and so on) in such a simplistic manner in his Gita commentaries, that even a layman can understand it. Is that the only book you have based all your fancy ideas on? Maybe its time for you go back to some more genuine reading with a open mind. It will do you a world of good. Regards,Nitish, rajarshi nandy <rajarshi14@ ...> wrote:>> Namaste> > Proof by Contradiction> A person who lives as a farmer, should, after death, remain a farmer in the astral cosmos, and after subsequent astral death, should be reborn as the same farmer with the same name and same identity as in his previous earthly incarnation.> > Wrong example.> > A person after his death, depending on his tendencies in this life and level of spiritual evolution will retain some aspects of his personality, which means a person who loves music intensely will also in his next birth have an affinity for music. The conditions of the birth and inbetween period depends both on his inherent samaskaras as well the karmic repurcussion. It not, never, entirely once choice. It a mix and match between what one wants and what one deserves. IN all cases, to be able to retain the samskara Ahamakara is needed. Therefore, Ahamkara exists even in beyond the death for a normal human being. Therewfore, Ahamkara is present in the astral/casual plane as well.> > > Corollary #1:> A Devata as an Astral-being has I-ness due to his Manas, and doesn't have Ahamkara for the work done by him in all the various physical bodies.> > > This example becomse invalid since the analysis of the first example itself in incorrect.> > -Regards> Rajarshi> > > > The upsurge (of consciousness) is Bhairava - Shiva Sutra> > --- On Sun, 4/10/09, yeeahoo_99 <nitish.arya@ ...> wrote:> > > yeeahoo_99 <nitish.arya@ ...>> Re: Gyan Marga> > Sunday, 4 October, 2009, 9:40 AM> > > > > > > || OM TAT SAT ||> Dear Narasimha and Sundeep,> > Thanks for your feedback. I thought, I had written a quite clear and explicit mail, but your reply has proved that it needs to be put down in at least 10-fold simpler words.> > You read my mail, but picked up notions in an incorrect, incoherent manner, and are reading beyond what is written in my mail.> > To prove my point, I would ask Sundeep to read my previous mail on "Gyan Marg" followed by your reply and see if he also picks up the notions in the same manner as you did ?> > The only addition required is an example:> > Your hypothesis> Ahamkara is the only I-ness there is for all the beings in all the 3 cosmoses i.e. all the Physical, Astral and Causal-bodied beings.> > Proof by Contradiction> A person who lives as a farmer, should, after death, remain a farmer in the astral cosmos, and after subsequent astral death, should be reborn as the same farmer with the same name and same identity as in his previous earthly incarnation.> This is not the case, people don't even remember what they were in previous birth, and start their life afresh in a new earthly body> => Contradiction > => the original hypothesis is wrong > => Ahamkara is not the only sense of I-ness applicable to all beings in all the 3 cosmoses.> > Inference #1:> => Ahamkara is dominant sense of I-ness in Physical Cosmos.> => Manas is dominant sense of I-ness in Astral Cosmos.> => Chitta is dominant sense of I-ness in Causal Cosmos.> > Corollary #1:> A Devata as an Astral-being has I-ness due to his Manas, and doesn't have Ahamkara for the work done by him in all the various physical bodies.> > Inference #1 and Corollary #1 is what I had written in my previous mail on this topic.> > There are many other ways to prove the contradiction on this hypothesis (e.g. Powers of beings in physical cosmos < those in astral cosmos < those in causal cosmos).> > Your made two additional points that are also invalid. My comments on that is:> > 1. I-ness derived from Ahamkara,Manas and Chitta has no innate power to Control any other idea of the 35 Causal-ideas.> Reason:> Soul is the only Truth and controller, everything else has an unreal and derived existence. Thus, all the 35 ideas co-ordinate with each other, and not control each other. > > 2. A new-born child or a person in Hypnotic-Trance, is able to use his sense-consciousness coherently due to the astral-bodys' sense of I-ness derived from Manas, that coordinates the senses.> He has no Buddhi or discriminating faculty to interact with manas (sensory-motor mind) and tell it what to do - as you have proposed. Thus, Manas co-ordinates the senses due to its own sense of I-ness, not due to Buddhi.> > I hope this clarifies.> > Regards,> Nitish> > , Narasimha PVR Rao <pvr@> wrote:> >> > Namaste,> > > > Out of the 19 or 35 attributes of individualized consciousness, which one gives the idea "I am this" or "I am that"? Of course, it is ahamkaraka or I-ness or egosense or ego principle!> > > > Is one's idea of "I am this" limited to a physical body? Of course not! If someone says "so and so person is a terrible person", one may feel offended or if someone says "so and so person is a great person", one may feel elated. One's ahamkara or I-ness is identifying with the criticism or praise, even though nothing is being done to the physical body and only a name is being used. When somebody calls one by name from distance (as opposed to patting on the physical body and calling), one's consciousness may still think "I am being called" and one may turn towards the caller. As in these examples, one's I-ness does of course bind itself to more than a body.> > > > Suppose one gets a dream while sleeping. One may have forgotten totally about the physical body in the dream! One may think of something else as "I". In dreams, one may see oneself as a different body or may not even "see" onself, but still one may have the sense that so and so thing is happening to "me". So, even when the mind is drawn away from the physical body, there is still a notion of "I am this" (I-ness) in a dream. That is ahamkara or I-ness or ego principle.> > > > Your idea that ahamkara is limited to physical body is absolutely unacceptable. Ahamkara or I-ness extends beyond the physical body.> > > > Also, your idea that deities like Agni do not have ahamkara (I-ness) because they do not have physical bodies is incorrect. Of course, Agni does have an I-ness and thinks "I am Agni and this is what I do". If he did not have that I-ness, he would not do everything he does.> > > > Moreover, the 19 or 35 ideas of individualized consciousness do interact with each other, whether we use the word "control" for some of those interactions or not. For example, buddhi (intellectual/ discriminating mind) judges various past experiences, interacts with manas (sensory-motor mind) and tells it what to do. Then manas interacts with karmendriyas (organs of action) and makes them do various things. My buddhi determined what to write and my manas told my hands to type this and I ended up typing.> > > > Your point about "what exists as a part cannot be the whole" is totally out of place. The sense of I-ness, the memories and conditioning, the logical mind, the sensory-motor mind, karmendriyas etc are all different parts of individualized consciousness and they play different roles while interacting with each other in different ways. Some of those interactions may be deemed to be controls.> > > > > Am not mixing up the terminologies, though my mail didn't> > > go in details. Your understanding is flawed.> > > > > > 2. Where did you read this up ?> > > > One does not "read up" these things in a single place. There are different abstractions and breakdowns of what happens in individualized consciousness. There are several sources that speak of different aspects of this knowledge in slightly different terms. One will assimilate this knowledge better if one reads as many sources as possible and contemplates.> > > > Best regards,> > Narasimha> > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -> > Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ homam> > Do Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ tarpana> > Spirituality: http://groups. / group/vedic- wisdom> > Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro. home.comcast. net> > Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAst rologer.org> > Jyotish writings: http://groups. / group/JyotishWri tings> > Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagan nath.org> > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -> > > > ---- yeeahoo_99 <nitish.arya@ ...> wrote: > > > || OM TAT SAT ||> > > Dear Narasimha,> > > Please Ignore my previous-mail, it was not completed - i will try to delete it.> > > > > > Am not mixing up the terminologies, though my mail didn't go in details. Your understanding is flawed.> > > > > > 1. All ideas including the idea of Ahamkara naturally belong to the ideational or causal body, but Ahamkara must be overcome only in the physical body (See point 5.). Astral or Causal-bodied beings (those without a physical/astral body) don't have to fight with the idea of Ahamkara like we do.> > > > > > > Ahamkaara/ego controls manas and buddhi also. When manas (sensory-> > > > ...they are all guided by the sense of I-ness. That sense of I-ness > > > > permeates through all layers of one's individualized consciousness.> > > > > > 2. Where did you read this up ?> > > > > > There is a fine line between the sense of I-ness attributed to the Individual Soul and the sense of I-ness derived through the idea of Ahamkara. Even after a Soul is freed of the three bodies, the individuality of the Soul Atom is not destroyed (Resurrection implies that), while it has already given up the idea of Ahamkara including all other ideas.> > > > > > Individuality of a causal-bodied being is not due to the idea of Ahamkara because "What exists as a part cannot be the whole". Thus, the idea of Ahamkara, being one of the 35 ideas of the Causal-body, doesn't account for neither controls the rest of the 34 ideas. Each idea is independent of another, without requiring another idea to act upon it - otherwise your buddhi would always interfere with the functioning of Mind or Ahamkara or the 5 functions of life-forces and so on.> > > > > > Essentially, the 35 ideas of causal body are the basic causal forces and are not related as cause-effect to each other. Thus, each is independent of the application of the sense of I-ness derived from Ahamkara. Manas and Buddhi being two of the Causal-ideas, their functioning as well as existence is not "controlled" nor "derived" in any way by the idea of Ahamkara. It is very clear when we see those with sharpest Buddhi or Sharpest Mind still carrying Heaviest Ahamkara, because they didn't work upon that particular idea.> > > > > > > > > > But ego/ahamkaara/ I-ness is the very basis of the entire > > > > individualized consciousness.> > > > > > 3. Well, as most Physical-bodied beings cannot see through the Astral/causal cosmoses, it doesn't apply in the same way to the finer Astral and Causal-bodied beings who can always pierce the veil of Maya and see the human activities. Thus, what is "the very basis" of the entire individualized consciousness for a physical-bodied (unenlightened) being is not the same as for an astral/causal bodied being.> > > An Astral-bodied being thinks of Manas/sense- consciousness as the very basis of the entire individualized consciousness.> > > A Causal-bodied being thinks of Chitta/perceptive- consciousness as the very basis of the entire individualized consciousness.> > > However, that individuality is of the Soul not derived from any idea, which is why it is not lost when the Astral being loses astral consciousness and reincarnates in the Physical body.> > > > > > As an example, Devatas, with their finer bodies, are able to work through all the beings in all their physical-bodies simultaneously (like Ganesh resides in the Mooladhara, Agni digests the food, and so on..), never getting controlled by Ahamkara that would require them to say that this particular body is "my body" or that one is mine - unless they incarnate in Physical bodies themselves. Devatas are, however, Astral/Causal- bodied beings, so they would attempt to influence the Manas (Spirit-Possession) of the sense-bound worshipper. Pretas on the other hand, would attempt to possess ones' physical body as well as act out their Ahamkara.> > > > > > > > > > Out of the four antahkaranas, chitta (remembering or conditioned > > > > mind) and ahamkaara (ego or I-ness) are parts of the kaarana > > > > sareera (causal body) and remain till the end.> > > > > > 4. As per the resurrected Soul of Sri Yukteswar in Autobiography of a Yogi -> > > > > > Causal body is a matrix of 35 ideas, that include 19 ideas comprising Astral body (Chitta, Manas, Buddhi, Ahamkara, 5 functions of knowledge, 5 functions of Action, 5 functions of life-force) and 16 ideas comprising Physical body (16 chemical elements).> > > > > > Now, as we all know that Physical body expires as a whole, not just one or two of the 16 elements comprising it go away at a time, Astral and Causal bodies are also cast off as a whole in the corresponding cosmic consciousness - instead of different constituent ideas slipping out of it at different times. Chitta being the staging idea for all other modifications, can be termed as the last to go, when the causal body is finally dropped - hence I wrote as rising above Chitta.> > > > > > Thus, the idea of Ahamkara is bound with Gross Physical vibrations, > > > Manas with Subtle Astral vibrations and > > > Chitta with infinitely Subtle Causal Vibrations.> > > > > > Buddhi being another variable, can be developed or undeveloped irrespective of the other 34. Even illiterate Moodha, through surrender to their Guru, attain freedom from Ahamkara and so on...> > > > > > BTW, Chitta is not the Conditioned Mind. Chitta does store the residual impressions of all the past incarnations. However, being constituted of Satwa Guna, it doesn't have any inherent ability to act upon (Rajas) those impressions, just like a container containing an inflammable liquid doesn't automatically burn it down. Sadhana is required for That.> > > The Samskaras stored by Chitta, including those of Nidra, Smriti, Vikalpa, Viparyaya, Pramana, correspond to the Tamo Guna, while the Chitta itself is Satva Guna - hence the "Satvic - Tamas" represents the SuperEther tattwa (refer my previous mail). The all-perceiving Satvic Chitta doesn't get conditioned by the Tamo-guni Samskaras it stores.> > > Once the Chitta calms down, cleared of all residual impressions, only Satva Guna remains, the intuition becomes coherent and the Soul reflects on itself as distinct from Satva Guna of Prakriti (Chitta), thus realizing its own nature as Brahman.> > > > > > 5. > > > In Patanjali Yoga Sutras: > > > drigadarshanaktyore katmataivasmita -6> > > Egoism is the identification of the seer with the instrument of seeing. Patanjali has used Asmita instead of Ahamkara.> > > Since astral-bodied beings can use any of the senses like eyes to see, hear, smell, taste and so on (refer Autobiography of a Yogi)... the sense of egoism does not take roots in the astral-body and hence doesn't create Astral Karma. Similarly, Causal bodied beings can use thought to sense everything.> > > > > > Hence, Egotism has to be rooted out while the consciousness is associated with the Physical Body sensory activities or has Physical Karma.> > > > > > 6. The idea of Manas, as the controller of sense-consciousness , must be overcome in Astral body, through Vairagya. Read autobiography of a Yogi (chapter 43) where Sri Yukteswar illustrates that only those beings who cannot be tempted to go back to the pleasing to the eye Astral cosmos are permitted to stay permanently in the Causal cosmos. Pleasing to the eye implies Sense-consciousness which is associated with Manas.> > > > > > In Patanjali Yoga Sutras also it is mentioned in the same manner :> > > > > > dristanushravika vishaya vitrishnasya vashikara samjnavairagyam -15-> > > > > > That effect which comes to these who have given up their thirst after objects, either seen or heard, and which wills to control the objects, is non-attachment. Vivekananda has commented that Vairagya is the only way to freedom.> > > > > > This is to be accomplished by transferring the consciousness to Astral-Body and working out the Astral Karma or otherwise as an astral-bodied being.> > > > > > 7. Patanjali Yoga Sutras:> > > yogashchittavrittin irodhah -2-> > > Thus, extinguishing all the movements of Chitta is called "Yoga". > > > > > > This is to be accomplished by transferring the consciousness to Causal-Body and working out the Causal Karma or otherwise as a causal-bodied being.> > > > > > I hope this clarifies.> > > > > > Regards,> > > Nitish> > > > > > , Narasimha PVR Rao <pvr@> wrote:> > > >> > > > Namaste Nitish,> > > > > > > > I am afraid you are mixing up terminologies. For example, ego or ahamkaara (sense of I-ness) is not limited to the physical body, but extends to subtle body and causal body as well. In fact, ego resides in the causal body and affects other bodies. Out of the four antahkaranas, chitta (remembering or conditioned mind) and ahamkaara (ego or I-ness) are parts of the kaarana sareera (causal body) and remain till the end.> > > > > > > > Ahamkaara/ego controls manas and buddhi also. When manas (sensory-motor mind) observes sensory inputs or buddhi (intellectual or thinking mind) analyzes current and past observations of mind or chitta (remembering or conditioned mind) stores various observations or retrieves previously stored observations, they are all guided by the sense of I-ness. That sense of I-ness permeates through all layers of one's individualized consciousness.> > > > > > > > Upanishads and various scriptures have broken down the individualized consciousness into various groups by functionality, like five koshas, three sareeras, five praanas, five jnaanendriyas, five karmendriyas, four antahkaranas, six/seven chakras etc. But ego/ahamkaara/ I-ness is the very basis of the entire individualized consciousness.> > > > > > > > Though the word jnaana means different things to different people, a jnaana yogi pursues Self by the path of contemplation and discrimination. When a jnaana yogi reaches the final target, all bodies and koshas are merged in cosmos.> > > > > > > > Best regards,> > > > Narasimha> > > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -> > > > Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ homam> > > > Do Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ tarpana> > > > Spirituality: http://groups. / group/vedic- wisdom> > > > Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro. home.comcast. net> > > > Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAst rologer.org> > > > Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagan nath.org> > > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -> > > > > > > > ---- yeeahoo_99 <nitish.arya@ > wrote: > > > > > || OM TAT SAT ||> > > > > Dear Narasimha,> > > > > In my opinion, there are three distinct phases that lead the sould to rise above Ego, Mind and Chitta - corresponding to the three bodies physical (Sthoola), astral (Sookshma) and causal (Karana) resp.> > > > > > > > > > Rising above Ego is Jnana - Merging Physical body in Physical cosmos> > > > > Rising above Mind is Vairagya - Merging Astral body in Astral cosmos> > > > > Rising above Chitta is Yoga - Merging Causal body in Causal cosmos> > > > > > > > > > Finally, becoming established in Para-Brahman is YogaArudha.> > > > > > > > > > Your comments.> > > > > Regards,> > > > > Nitish> > > > > > > > > > , "Narasimha P.V.R. Rao" <pvr@> wrote:> > > > > >> > > > > > Namaste,> > > > > > > > > > > > Gyaani or jnaani is a wise and learned person, who may or may not debate (or even engage) with others. One may become a gyaani using either gyaana yoga or bhakti yoga or karma yoga or raaja yoga.> > > > > > > > > > > > Gyaana/jnaana yoga is a path of pursuing the Supreme through intellectual analysis. One pursuing that path may or may not debate with others and may or may not read many scriptures, but one will analyze and debate within oneself. One starts with the basic axioms (e.g. Self is imperishable and without a beginning or an end). One will go on eliminating things that one is aware of as not being Self. For example, body has a beginning and end and is perishable. So it is not Self. One introspects like this and, though the process of elimination, finally finds the true Self. That is gyaana yoga. Pure gyaana yoga is very difficult to follow in this age.> > > > > > > > > > > > Vichaara (contemplation) is the process of sadhana for an adherer of pure gyaana yoga.> > > > > > > > > > > > However, the gyaana (knowledge of Self) achieved by such a person at the end is not really different from the knowledge of Self achieved by a person following another path.> > > > > > > > > > > > Best regards,> > > > > > Narasimha> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Try the new India Homepage. http://in.. com/trynew> From cricket scores to your friends. Try the India Homepage! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 5, 2009 Report Share Posted October 5, 2009 Namaste And that is exactly why we must first clearly, precisely define the terminologies, and make exact, calculated statements in a discussion. It is funny to see some people who do not understand this basic idea and yet go ahead and make ridiculous assumptions when they themselves keep changing their ideas in every 2 mails. -Regards Rajarshi The upsurge (of consciousness) is Bhairava - Shiva Sutra--- On Mon, 5/10/09, Narasimha PVR Rao <pvr wrote: Narasimha PVR Rao <pvr Re: Gyan Marga Date: Monday, 5 October, 2009, 7:50 AM Namaste,This is excellent - your terminology seems to be evolving and getting refined now. At one stage, you said "Ahamkara isn't the dominant cause of I-ness in Astral/Causal bodies", while I was saying ahamkara=I-ness. Now, you wrote:> PHYSICAL I-NESS (AHAMKARA) = ASMITA = Physical Egotism> ASTRAL I-NESS (AHAMKARA) = MANAS = Astral attachments> CAUSAL I-NESS (AHAMKARA) = CHITTA = Causal PerceptionsSo you are acknowledging that I-ness and ahamkara are synonyms and referring to ahamkara at astral and causal planes. It is good that you are slowly converging!* * *I did not want to divert from the upanishadic terminology of 19 ideas of individualized consciousness. So I stuck to the term ahamkaara and ignored your references to Patanjali. Now that there is some convergence on "ahamkaara", let me address "asmita" mentioned in Patanjali yoga sutras.> identification of the seer with the instrument of> seeing i.e. Physical senses.You are assuming that physical senses or physical body is the only instrument of seeing (or experiencing) .However, mind can see, hear, feel and experience things even when it is not working with a physical body and physical senses. For example, one's mind may "see" something in a dream without the physical eyes seeing anything.Also, a yogi in deep meditation may see, hear, feel or experience something without the involvement of eyes, ears and other physical senses.If such a yogi identifies with the instrument of that experience, i.e. the mind, that too is asmita as per Patanjali's yoga sutra that you quoted. Just as I had an issue earlier with your limiting of ahamkaara to physical body, I also have an issue with your limiting of asmita to physical body.BTW, identification with physical body *as well as* identification with mind block one from yoga (communion) with true Self. Both are due to ahamkaara as defined by upanishads. Both are due to asmita as defined by Patanjali.Best regards,Narasimha------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ homamDo Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ tarpanaSpirituality: http://groups. / group/vedic- wisdomFree Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro. home.comcast. netFree Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAst rologer.orgJyotish writings: http://groups. / group/JyotishWri tingsSri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagan nath.org------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- ----- yeeahoo_99 <nitish.arya@ gmail.com> wrote: > || OM TAT SAT ||> Dear Utpalji and Narasimha,> > If any of you is offended due to my being explicit with words - it also shows that you people have a lot of scope in learning of new ideas!> > > The second statement says something radical. Ahamkaara and I Ness > > is completely two different identity.> > your second statment is a departure from almost every Gnyaani has > > to say.> > It is none of my fault that this conflict arose and continues. Here is the reason.> > In my first mail (#2704) itself it is explicitly written, that Patanjali has used the exact word "asmita" for Egoism - which is the I-ness (Ahamkara) in Physical body consciousness - that causes identification of the seer with the instrument of seeing i.e. Physical senses.> > > In Patanjali Yoga Sutras:> > drigadarshanaktyore katmataivasmita -6> > Egoism is the identification of the seer with the instrument of > > seeing.> > >>> Patanjali has used Asmita instead of Ahamkara.> > > PATANJALI has not used the word AHAMKARA anywhere in his PRECISE AND ESTEEMED sanskrit dissertation on YOGA - he has chosen to use the word ASMITA everywhere. E.g.> > 1. vitarka vicharanandasmita rupanugamat samprajnatah -> > SASMITA SAMADHI> > 2. From Lahiri Mahasayas' Commentary on Patanjali - > > avidyasmitaragadves habhinibeshah panchakleshah> > "Avidya" [ignorance], "asmita" [egotism], "raga" [attraction or > liking], "dvesha" [hatred or disliking] and "abhinibesha" [engrossment] -- these are the five types of afflictions.> > Thus, using "Ahamkara" while talking about Sankhya and using "Asmita" while talking about Patanjali Sutras brought in the conflict. In any case, what is called as Ahamkara in 24 principles of Sankhya is actually Asmita, which can be very-loosely pitted as Ahamkara.> > The idea stated by me was on firm grounds - with reference to Patanjali Sutras and the words of Sri Yukteswar in Autobiography of a Yogi. And this idea is there in my first mail, though not the exact table: > > PHYSICAL I-NESS (AHAMKARA) = ASMITA = Physical Egotism> ASTRAL I-NESS (AHAMKARA) = MANAS = Astral attachments> CAUSAL I-NESS (AHAMKARA) = CHITTA = Causal Perceptions> > Also, one of the 2 reasons that I had given on why Astral/Causal Body beings don't have sense of Asmita as a dominant sense of I-ness is this:> > > Since astral-bodied beings can use any of the senses like eyes to > > see, hear, smell, taste and so on (refer Autobiography of a > > Yogi)... the sense of egoism does not take roots in the astral-body > and hence doesn't create Astral Karma.> > Similarly, Causal bodied beings can use thought to sense everything.> > > Hence, Egotism has to be rooted out while the consciousness is > > associated with the Physical Body sensory activities or has > > Physical Karma.> > Lastly, extending upon this idea further, there are beings in the Astral cosmos who have never been in Physical forms - We Physical beings are not the only ones in the cycles of creation. While they will still have the idea of "Asmita" in their causal bodies, but they will always be repelled by the grosser-vibrations of Sensual experiences in Physical Bodies/Cosmos, and hence would not incur any Physical Karma due to "Asmita".> > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -> [ TO ALL IN THE LIST ] > - If the above explanation resolves the issue, well and good. Whether it does or doesn't, this is my last mail on this topic because I had said all I had to in the first mail itself - whether you read it or missed it.> You may read a detailed article on this topic that I will write as and when time allows me to do so.> > > [ TO UTPALJI ]> - Am not a jnani.> But there are Jnanis, who know that 6th tattwa doesn't exist.> That is why there is a significant departure.> > [ TO NARASIMHA ]> > > So you are accepting that there as "I-ness of manas" and "I-ness of > chitta". I-ness=aham- kaara.> > There was never a time that I didn't, and I have no control over what meaning you derive from my words.> > > I still think this is a case of a Pascal language programmer > > unfamiliar with C language misunderstanding some software written > > in C language and passing comments. But unfortunately that > > programmer seems to be hasty in using labels like "flawed", > > "incorrect", "incoherent" etc about other programmers whose > > language he is unable to understand.> > The power of mind needs no language to express itself...If a Programmer just understands this much, he will become the Architect!> Also, while a Programmer always assumes that every other person he encounters is a Programmer, an Architect knows that every other person is an Architect in making. Hope you become an Architect one day!> > Regards,> Nitish> > > ---- Narasimha PVR Rao <pvr (AT) charter (DOT) net> wrote: > Namaste,> > > "Ahamkara isn't the dominant cause of I-ness in Astral/Causal bodies"> > What a strange statement!! After all,> > aham = I> kaara = ness> ahamkaara = I-ness.> > Thus, ahamkaara *IS* the I-ness of an individualized consciousness. You are talking of ahamkaara being the "cause of" I-ness. But ahamkaara IS the I-ness!> > * * *> > Whether you talk about physical body or subtle body or causal body, I-ness in various layers is still ahamkaara. When ahamkaara binds more to one layer, one looks at oneself primarily from the perspective of that layer. When ahamkaara does not bind to anything at all, one is in nirvikalpa samadhi, i.e. established in Brahman. Ahamkaara or I-ness is a fundamental property of an individualized consciousness and remains as long as there is some individualization.> > * * *> > > THUS, THE BEAUTIFUL ASTRAL SPHERE ARE SENSED BY THE I-NESS OF MANAS,> > while CAUSAL SPHERE ARE SENSED BY THE I-NESS OF CHITTA.> > So you are accepting that there as "I-ness of manas" and "I-ness of chitta". I-ness=aham- kaara. If we replace I-ness in these terms, we get "ahamkaara of manas" and "ahamkaara of chitta". When scriptures defined the 19 proerties of individualized consciousness, they only defined one ahamkaara apart from manas, chitta etc and did not define "ahamkaara of manas" and "ahamkaara of chitta" etc.> > For what I termed as ahamkaara (I-ness) working through manas and ahamkaara (I-ness) working through chitta, you are coining new terms like "I-ness of manas" and "I-ness of chitta" because you have this strange notion that ahamkaara is tied to physical body.> > * * *> > > IF THE AHAMKARA IS NOT SUPPRESSED AFTER PHYSICAL DEATH, THE PERSON WILL> > KEEP CARRYING THE SAME EARTHLY IDENTITY TO THE ASTRAL PLANES, AND BRING IT> > BACK AT REBIRTH TO THE EARTH. AND THEN, HE WILL RECLAIM HIS LOST TERRITORY> > AND WEALTH - THE CONFLICTS THAT WILL ARISE WILL BE BEYOND ANYBODY'S CONTROL. > > THUS, THE BEAUTIFUL ASTRAL SPHERE ARE SENSED BY THE I-NESS OF MANAS,> > while CAUSAL SPHERE ARE SENSED BY THE I-NESS OF CHITTA.> > Of course, ahamkaara (I-ness) associating mainly with a physical body is bad. We have no disagreement there.> > The astral sphere may be beautiful to some. But, to a true jnaani, it is a source of problems too, though the problems are lighter than the problems of the physical domain.> > Celestials without physical bodies and having only ethereal bodies have desires too and they are bonded too.> > * * *> > I still think this is a case of a Pascal language programmer unfamiliar with C language misunderstanding some software written in C language and passing comments. But unfortunately that programmer seems to be hasty in using labels like "flawed", "incorrect", "incoherent" etc about other programmers whose language he is unable to understand.> > Best regards,> Narasimha> ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -> Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ homam> Do Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ tarpana> Spirituality: http://groups. / group/vedic- wisdom> Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro. home.comcast. net> Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAst rologer.org> Jyotish writings: http://groups. / group/JyotishWri tings> Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagan nath.org> ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -> > --- In , "yeeahoo_99" <nitish.arya@ ...> wrote:> >> > || OM TAT SAT ||> > Namaskar Rajarshi,> > > > Thanks for your contribution - all you have done is to prove what is already known.> > > > > Therefore, Ahamkara exists even in beyond the death for a normal > > > human being. Therewfore, Ahamkara is present in the astral/casual > > > plane as well.> > > > 1. Do you realize what is being talked about and what you have ended up proving ? Wherein did I deny that Ahamkara is not present in Astral/Causal bodies ?> > > > Ahamkara is an idea in Causal-body, so it is present all the time till the soul is freed of the three body containers.> > > > 2. OTOH, What I have stated, with reference to Patanjali Sutras, is that Ahamkara is "SUPPRESSED" in Astral and Causal bodies. Meaning > > > > "Ahamkara isn't the dominant cause of I-ness in Astral/Causal bodies"> > > > And as a result wouldn't contribute to the acquisition of Astral/Causal Karma.> > > > Why is Ahamkara not dominant in Astral/Causal bodies ?> > The reason I have already given in the first mail in sufficient detail.> > > > IF THE AHAMKARA IS NOT SUPPRESSED AFTER PHYSICAL DEATH, THE PERSON WILL KEEP CARRYING THE SAME EARTHLY IDENTITY TO THE ASTRAL PLANES, AND BRING IT BACK AT REBIRTH TO THE EARTH. AND THEN, HE WILL RECLAIM HIS LOST TERRITORY AND WEALTH - THE CONFLICTS THAT WILL ARISE WILL BE BEYOND ANYBODY'S CONTROL. > > THUS, THE BEAUTIFUL ASTRAL SPHERE ARE SENSED BY THE I-NESS OF MANAS, while CAUSAL SPHERE ARE SENSED BY THE I-NESS OF CHITTA.> > > > Please read more of "Sri Sri Paramahansa Yogananda", he has mentioned about all these things (what happens to a soul at death and so on) in such a simplistic manner in his Gita commentaries, that even a layman can understand it.> > > > Regards,> > Nitish> > > > , rajarshi nandy <rajarshi14@ > wrote:> > >> > > Namaste> > > > > > Proof by Contradiction> > > A person who lives as a farmer, should, after death, remain a farmer in the astral cosmos, and after subsequent astral death, should be reborn as the same farmer with the same name and same identity as in his previous earthly incarnation.> > > > > > Wrong example.> > > > > > A person after his death, depending on his tendencies in this life and level of spiritual evolution will retain some aspects of his personality, which means a person who loves music intensely will also in his next birth have an affinity for music. The conditions of the birth and inbetween period depends both on his inherent samaskaras as well the karmic repurcussion. It not, never, entirely once choice. It a mix and match between what one wants and what one deserves. IN all cases, to be able to retain the samskara Ahamakara is needed. Therefore, Ahamkara exists even in beyond the death for a normal human being. Therewfore, Ahamkara is present in the astral/casual plane as well.> > > > > > > > > Corollary #1:> > > A Devata as an Astral-being has I-ness due to his Manas, and doesn't have Ahamkara for the work done by him in all the various physical bodies.> > > > > > > > > This example becomse invalid since the analysis of the first example itself in incorrect.> > > > > > -Regards> > > Rajarshi> > > > > > > > > > > > The upsurge (of consciousness) is Bhairava - Shiva Sutra> > > > > > --- On Sun, 4/10/09, yeeahoo_99 <nitish.arya@ > wrote:> > > > > > > > > yeeahoo_99 <nitish.arya@ >> > > Re: Gyan Marga> > > > > > Sunday, 4 October, 2009, 9:40 AM> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > || OM TAT SAT ||> > > Dear Narasimha and Sundeep,> > > > > > Thanks for your feedback. I thought, I had written a quite clear and explicit mail, but your reply has proved that it needs to be put down in at least 10-fold simpler words.> > > > > > You read my mail, but picked up notions in an incorrect, incoherent manner, and are reading beyond what is written in my mail.> > > > > > To prove my point, I would ask Sundeep to read my previous mail on "Gyan Marg" followed by your reply and see if he also picks up the notions in the same manner as you did ?> > > > > > The only addition required is an example:> > > > > > Your hypothesis> > > Ahamkara is the only I-ness there is for all the beings in all the 3 cosmoses i.e. all the Physical, Astral and Causal-bodied beings.> > > > > > Proof by Contradiction> > > A person who lives as a farmer, should, after death, remain a farmer in the astral cosmos, and after subsequent astral death, should be reborn as the same farmer with the same name and same identity as in his previous earthly incarnation.> > > This is not the case, people don't even remember what they were in previous birth, and start their life afresh in a new earthly body> > > => Contradiction > > > => the original hypothesis is wrong > > > => Ahamkara is not the only sense of I-ness applicable to all beings in all the 3 cosmoses.> > > > > > Inference #1:> > > => Ahamkara is dominant sense of I-ness in Physical Cosmos.> > > => Manas is dominant sense of I-ness in Astral Cosmos.> > > => Chitta is dominant sense of I-ness in Causal Cosmos.> > > > > > Corollary #1:> > > A Devata as an Astral-being has I-ness due to his Manas, and doesn't have Ahamkara for the work done by him in all the various physical bodies.> > > > > > Inference #1 and Corollary #1 is what I had written in my previous mail on this topic.> > > > > > There are many other ways to prove the contradiction on this hypothesis (e.g. Powers of beings in physical cosmos < those in astral cosmos < those in causal cosmos).> > > > > > Your made two additional points that are also invalid. My comments on that is:> > > > > > 1. I-ness derived from Ahamkara,Manas and Chitta has no innate power to Control any other idea of the 35 Causal-ideas.> > > Reason:> > > Soul is the only Truth and controller, everything else has an unreal and derived existence. Thus, all the 35 ideas co-ordinate with each other, and not control each other. > > > > > > 2. A new-born child or a person in Hypnotic-Trance, is able to use his sense-consciousness coherently due to the astral-bodys' sense of I-ness derived from Manas, that coordinates the senses.> > > He has no Buddhi or discriminating faculty to interact with manas (sensory-motor mind) and tell it what to do - as you have proposed. Thus, Manas co-ordinates the senses due to its own sense of I-ness, not due to Buddhi.> > > > > > I hope this clarifies.> > > > > > Regards,> > > Nitish> > > > > > , Narasimha PVR Rao <pvr@> wrote:> > > >> > > > Namaste,> > > > > > > > Out of the 19 or 35 attributes of individualized consciousness, which one gives the idea "I am this" or "I am that"? Of course, it is ahamkaraka or I-ness or egosense or ego principle!> > > > > > > > Is one's idea of "I am this" limited to a physical body? Of course not! If someone says "so and so person is a terrible person", one may feel offended or if someone says "so and so person is a great person", one may feel elated. One's ahamkara or I-ness is identifying with the criticism or praise, even though nothing is being done to the physical body and only a name is being used. When somebody calls one by name from distance (as opposed to patting on the physical body and calling), one's consciousness may still think "I am being called" and one may turn towards the caller. As in these examples, one's I-ness does of course bind itself to more than a body.> > > > > > > > Suppose one gets a dream while sleeping. One may have forgotten totally about the physical body in the dream! One may think of something else as "I". In dreams, one may see oneself as a different body or may not even "see" onself, but still one may have the sense that so and so thing is happening to "me". So, even when the mind is drawn away from the physical body, there is still a notion of "I am this" (I-ness) in a dream. That is ahamkara or I-ness or ego principle.> > > > > > > > Your idea that ahamkara is limited to physical body is absolutely unacceptable. Ahamkara or I-ness extends beyond the physical body.> > > > > > > > Also, your idea that deities like Agni do not have ahamkara (I-ness) because they do not have physical bodies is incorrect. Of course, Agni does have an I-ness and thinks "I am Agni and this is what I do". If he did not have that I-ness, he would not do everything he does.> > > > > > > > Moreover, the 19 or 35 ideas of individualized consciousness do interact with each other, whether we use the word "control" for some of those interactions or not. For example, buddhi (intellectual/ discriminating mind) judges various past experiences, interacts with manas (sensory-motor mind) and tells it what to do. Then manas interacts with karmendriyas (organs of action) and makes them do various things. My buddhi determined what to write and my manas told my hands to type this and I ended up typing.> > > > > > > > Your point about "what exists as a part cannot be the whole" is totally out of place. The sense of I-ness, the memories and conditioning, the logical mind, the sensory-motor mind, karmendriyas etc are all different parts of individualized consciousness and they play different roles while interacting with each other in different ways. Some of those interactions may be deemed to be controls.> > > > > > > > > Am not mixing up the terminologies, though my mail didn't> > > > > go in details. Your understanding is flawed.> > > > > > > > > > 2. Where did you read this up ?> > > > > > > > One does not "read up" these things in a single place. There are different abstractions and breakdowns of what happens in individualized consciousness. There are several sources that speak of different aspects of this knowledge in slightly different terms. One will assimilate this knowledge better if one reads as many sources as possible and contemplates.> > > > > > > > Best regards,> > > > Narasimha> > > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -> > > > Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ homam> > > > Do Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ tarpana> > > > Spirituality: http://groups. / group/vedic- wisdom> > > > Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro. home.comcast. net> > > > Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAst rologer.org> > > > Jyotish writings: http://groups. / group/JyotishWri tings> > > > Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagan nath.org> > > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -> > > > > > > > ---- yeeahoo_99 <nitish.arya@ ...> wrote: > > > > > || OM TAT SAT ||> > > > > Dear Narasimha,> > > > > Please Ignore my previous-mail, it was not completed - i will try to delete it.> > > > > > > > > > Am not mixing up the terminologies, though my mail didn't go in details. Your understanding is flawed.> > > > > > > > > > 1. All ideas including the idea of Ahamkara naturally belong to the ideational or causal body, but Ahamkara must be overcome only in the physical body (See point 5.). Astral or Causal-bodied beings (those without a physical/astral body) don't have to fight with the idea of Ahamkara like we do.> > > > > > > > > > > Ahamkaara/ego controls manas and buddhi also. When manas (sensory-> > > > > > ...they are all guided by the sense of I-ness. That sense of I-ness > > > > > > permeates through all layers of one's individualized consciousness.> > > > > > > > > > 2. Where did you read this up ?> > > > > > > > > > There is a fine line between the sense of I-ness attributed to the Individual Soul and the sense of I-ness derived through the idea of Ahamkara. Even after a Soul is freed of the three bodies, the individuality of the Soul Atom is not destroyed (Resurrection implies that), while it has already given up the idea of Ahamkara including all other ideas.> > > > > > > > > > Individuality of a causal-bodied being is not due to the idea of Ahamkara because "What exists as a part cannot be the whole". Thus, the idea of Ahamkara, being one of the 35 ideas of the Causal-body, doesn't account for neither controls the rest of the 34 ideas. Each idea is independent of another, without requiring another idea to act upon it - otherwise your buddhi would always interfere with the functioning of Mind or Ahamkara or the 5 functions of life-forces and so on.> > > > > > > > > > Essentially, the 35 ideas of causal body are the basic causal forces and are not related as cause-effect to each other. Thus, each is independent of the application of the sense of I-ness derived from Ahamkara. Manas and Buddhi being two of the Causal-ideas, their functioning as well as existence is not "controlled" nor "derived" in any way by the idea of Ahamkara. It is very clear when we see those with sharpest Buddhi or Sharpest Mind still carrying Heaviest Ahamkara, because they didn't work upon that particular idea.> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But ego/ahamkaara/ I-ness is the very basis of the entire > > > > > > individualized consciousness.> > > > > > > > > > 3. Well, as most Physical-bodied beings cannot see through the Astral/causal cosmoses, it doesn't apply in the same way to the finer Astral and Causal-bodied beings who can always pierce the veil of Maya and see the human activities. Thus, what is "the very basis" of the entire individualized consciousness for a physical-bodied (unenlightened) being is not the same as for an astral/causal bodied being.> > > > > An Astral-bodied being thinks of Manas/sense- consciousness as the very basis of the entire individualized consciousness.> > > > > A Causal-bodied being thinks of Chitta/perceptive- consciousness as the very basis of the entire individualized consciousness.> > > > > However, that individuality is of the Soul not derived from any idea, which is why it is not lost when the Astral being loses astral consciousness and reincarnates in the Physical body.> > > > > > > > > > As an example, Devatas, with their finer bodies, are able to work through all the beings in all their physical-bodies simultaneously (like Ganesh resides in the Mooladhara, Agni digests the food, and so on..), never getting controlled by Ahamkara that would require them to say that this particular body is "my body" or that one is mine - unless they incarnate in Physical bodies themselves. Devatas are, however, Astral/Causal- bodied beings, so they would attempt to influence the Manas (Spirit-Possession) of the sense-bound worshipper. Pretas on the other hand, would attempt to possess ones' physical body as well as act out their Ahamkara.> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Out of the four antahkaranas, chitta (remembering or conditioned > > > > > > mind) and ahamkaara (ego or I-ness) are parts of the kaarana > > > > > > sareera (causal body) and remain till the end.> > > > > > > > > > 4. As per the resurrected Soul of Sri Yukteswar in Autobiography of a Yogi -> > > > > > > > > > Causal body is a matrix of 35 ideas, that include 19 ideas comprising Astral body (Chitta, Manas, Buddhi, Ahamkara, 5 functions of knowledge, 5 functions of Action, 5 functions of life-force) and 16 ideas comprising Physical body (16 chemical elements).> > > > > > > > > > Now, as we all know that Physical body expires as a whole, not just one or two of the 16 elements comprising it go away at a time, Astral and Causal bodies are also cast off as a whole in the corresponding cosmic consciousness - instead of different constituent ideas slipping out of it at different times. Chitta being the staging idea for all other modifications, can be termed as the last to go, when the causal body is finally dropped - hence I wrote as rising above Chitta.> > > > > > > > > > Thus, the idea of Ahamkara is bound with Gross Physical vibrations, > > > > > Manas with Subtle Astral vibrations and > > > > > Chitta with infinitely Subtle Causal Vibrations.> > > > > > > > > > Buddhi being another variable, can be developed or undeveloped irrespective of the other 34. Even illiterate Moodha, through surrender to their Guru, attain freedom from Ahamkara and so on...> > > > > > > > > > BTW, Chitta is not the Conditioned Mind. Chitta does store the residual impressions of all the past incarnations. However, being constituted of Satwa Guna, it doesn't have any inherent ability to act upon (Rajas) those impressions, just like a container containing an inflammable liquid doesn't automatically burn it down. Sadhana is required for That.> > > > > The Samskaras stored by Chitta, including those of Nidra, Smriti, Vikalpa, Viparyaya, Pramana, correspond to the Tamo Guna, while the Chitta itself is Satva Guna - hence the "Satvic - Tamas" represents the SuperEther tattwa (refer my previous mail). The all-perceiving Satvic Chitta doesn't get conditioned by the Tamo-guni Samskaras it stores.> > > > > Once the Chitta calms down, cleared of all residual impressions, only Satva Guna remains, the intuition becomes coherent and the Soul reflects on itself as distinct from Satva Guna of Prakriti (Chitta), thus realizing its own nature as Brahman.> > > > > > > > > > 5. > > > > > In Patanjali Yoga Sutras: > > > > > drigadarshanaktyore katmataivasmita -6> > > > > Egoism is the identification of the seer with the instrument of seeing. Patanjali has used Asmita instead of Ahamkara.> > > > > Since astral-bodied beings can use any of the senses like eyes to see, hear, smell, taste and so on (refer Autobiography of a Yogi)... the sense of egoism does not take roots in the astral-body and hence doesn't create Astral Karma. Similarly, Causal bodied beings can use thought to sense everything.> > > > > > > > > > Hence, Egotism has to be rooted out while the consciousness is associated with the Physical Body sensory activities or has Physical Karma.> > > > > > > > > > 6. The idea of Manas, as the controller of sense-consciousness , must be overcome in Astral body, through Vairagya. Read autobiography of a Yogi (chapter 43) where Sri Yukteswar illustrates that only those beings who cannot be tempted to go back to the pleasing to the eye Astral cosmos are permitted to stay permanently in the Causal cosmos. Pleasing to the eye implies Sense-consciousness which is associated with Manas.> > > > > > > > > > In Patanjali Yoga Sutras also it is mentioned in the same manner :> > > > > > > > > > dristanushravika vishaya vitrishnasya vashikara samjnavairagyam -15-> > > > > > > > > > That effect which comes to these who have given up their thirst after objects, either seen or heard, and which wills to control the objects, is non-attachment. Vivekananda has commented that Vairagya is the only way to freedom.> > > > > > > > > > This is to be accomplished by transferring the consciousness to Astral-Body and working out the Astral Karma or otherwise as an astral-bodied being.> > > > > > > > > > 7. Patanjali Yoga Sutras:> > > > > yogashchittavrittin irodhah -2-> > > > > Thus, extinguishing all the movements of Chitta is called "Yoga". > > > > > > > > > > This is to be accomplished by transferring the consciousness to Causal-Body and working out the Causal Karma or otherwise as a causal-bodied being.> > > > > > > > > > I hope this clarifies.> > > > > > > > > > Regards,> > > > > Nitish India has a new look. Take a sneak peek. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 5, 2009 Report Share Posted October 5, 2009 || OM TAT SAT || Namaskar, What inspired me for a long time was the Cosmic-consciousness experience of my friend - a colleague in the company I used to work. He told me, when he was a child, he used to catch various colored birds at night (these were astral projections). Due to his past good karma, he had his consciousness expanded throughout the earth, and later on, throughout the Physical cosmos. He is 2 years elder to me, and proficient in the Hatha Yoga (like Mahabheda, Mahamudra, YoniMudra etc). I have had many-many spiritual experiences in past few years, which I don't share except 1-2 people around me including this guy. Regards, Nitish , " suvarnatejas " <sattvatejas wrote: > > > Namaste Nitishji: > > If I may ask you humbly, are you writing all of this > from the depth of your personal experience or by synthesizing > what has been written by others. Since joining this group > many of us have been inspired by the personal spiritual accounts > of a few. If you could share yours, it would be all the more > inspiring to us. > > Regards! > > , " yeeahoo_99 " <nitish.arya@> wrote: > > > > || OM TAT SAT || > > Dear Utpalji and Narasimha, > > > > If any of you is offended due to my being explicit with words - it also shows that you people have a lot of scope in learning of new ideas! > > > > > The second statement says something radical. Ahamkaara and I Ness > > > is completely two different identity. > > > your second statment is a departure from almost every Gnyaani has > > > to say. > > > > It is none of my fault that this conflict arose and continues. Here is the reason. > > > > In my first mail (#2704) itself it is explicitly written, that Patanjali has used the exact word " asmita " for Egoism - which is the I-ness (Ahamkara) in Physical body consciousness - that causes identification of the seer with the instrument of seeing i.e. Physical senses. > > > > > In Patanjali Yoga Sutras: > > > drigadarshanaktyorekatmataivasmita -6 > > > Egoism is the identification of the seer with the instrument of > > > seeing. > > > > >>> Patanjali has used Asmita instead of Ahamkara. > > > > > > PATANJALI has not used the word AHAMKARA anywhere in his PRECISE AND ESTEEMED sanskrit dissertation on YOGA - he has chosen to use the word ASMITA everywhere. E.g. > > > > 1. vitarka vicharanandasmita rupanugamat samprajnatah - > > > > SASMITA SAMADHI > > > > 2. From Lahiri Mahasayas' Commentary on Patanjali - > > > > avidyasmitaragadveshabhinibeshah panchakleshah > > > > " Avidya " [ignorance], " asmita " [egotism], " raga " [attraction or > > liking], " dvesha " [hatred or disliking] and " abhinibesha " [engrossment] -- these are the five types of afflictions. > > > > Thus, using " Ahamkara " while talking about Sankhya and using " Asmita " while talking about Patanjali Sutras brought in the conflict. In any case, what is called as Ahamkara in 24 principles of Sankhya is actually Asmita, which can be very-loosely pitted as Ahamkara. > > > > The idea stated by me was on firm grounds - with reference to Patanjali Sutras and the words of Sri Yukteswar in Autobiography of a Yogi. And this idea is there in my first mail, though not the exact table: > > > > PHYSICAL I-NESS (AHAMKARA) = ASMITA = Physical Egotism > > ASTRAL I-NESS (AHAMKARA) = MANAS = Astral attachments > > CAUSAL I-NESS (AHAMKARA) = CHITTA = Causal Perceptions > > > > Also, one of the 2 reasons that I had given on why Astral/Causal Body beings don't have sense of Asmita as a dominant sense of I-ness is this: > > > > > Since astral-bodied beings can use any of the senses like eyes to > > > see, hear, smell, taste and so on (refer Autobiography of a > > > Yogi)... the sense of egoism does not take roots in the astral-body > and hence doesn't create Astral Karma. > > > Similarly, Causal bodied beings can use thought to sense everything. > > > > > Hence, Egotism has to be rooted out while the consciousness is > > > associated with the Physical Body sensory activities or has > > > Physical Karma. > > > > Lastly, extending upon this idea further, there are beings in the Astral cosmos who have never been in Physical forms - We Physical beings are not the only ones in the cycles of creation. While they will still have the idea of " Asmita " in their causal bodies, but they will always be repelled by the grosser-vibrations of Sensual experiences in Physical Bodies/Cosmos, and hence would not incur any Physical Karma due to " Asmita " . > > > > -------------------------------- > > [ TO ALL IN THE LIST ] > > - If the above explanation resolves the issue, well and good. Whether it does or doesn't, this is my last mail on this topic because I had said all I had to in the first mail itself - whether you read it or missed it. > > You may read a detailed article on this topic that I will write as and when time allows me to do so. > > > > > > [ TO UTPALJI ] > > - Am not a jnani. > > But there are Jnanis, who know that 6th tattwa doesn't exist. > > That is why there is a significant departure. > > > > [ TO NARASIMHA ] > > > > > So you are accepting that there as " I-ness of manas " and " I-ness of > chitta " . I-ness=aham-kaara. > > > > There was never a time that I didn't, and I have no control over what meaning you derive from my words. > > > > > I still think this is a case of a Pascal language programmer > > > unfamiliar with C language misunderstanding some software written > > > in C language and passing comments. But unfortunately that > > > programmer seems to be hasty in using labels like " flawed " , > > > " incorrect " , " incoherent " etc about other programmers whose > > > language he is unable to understand. > > > > The power of mind needs no language to express itself...If a Programmer just understands this much, he will become the Architect! > > Also, while a Programmer always assumes that every other person he encounters is a Programmer, an Architect knows that every other person is an Architect in making. Hope you become an Architect one day! > > > > Regards, > > Nitish > > > > , " vedic_pathak " <vedic_pathak@> wrote: > > > > > > Namaste Nitish ji, > > > > > > >Ahamkara is an idea in Causal-body, so it is present all the time >till the > > > >soul is freed of the three body containers. > > > > > > > > > > " Ahamkara isn't the dominant cause of I-ness in Astral/Causal >bodies " > > > > > > I am not getting your point here. you agree in the above given first statement that Ahamkaara is an Idea present in all three bodies and remains TILL the soul is freed from all the three containers. > > > > > > The second statement says something radical. Ahamkaara and I Ness is completely two different identity. > > > > > > your second statment is a departure from almost every Gnyaani has to say. > > > > > > I pray...you please clarify your understanding of Ahamkaara and I Ness. > > > > > > looking forward to explanation of the above. > > > > > > Thanks & Regards, > > > > > > Utpal > > > > > > > > > > > > , " yeeahoo_99 " <nitish.arya@> wrote: > > > > > > > > || OM TAT SAT || > > > > Namaskar Rajarshi, > > > > > > > > Thanks for your contribution - all you have done is to prove what is already known. > > > > > > > > > Therefore, Ahamkara exists even in beyond the death for a normal > > > > > human being. Therewfore, Ahamkara is present in the astral/casual > > > > > plane as well. > > > > > > > > 1. Do you realize what is being talked about and what you have ended up proving ? Wherein did I deny that Ahamkara is not present in Astral/Causal bodies ? > > > > > > > > Ahamkara is an idea in Causal-body, so it is present all the time till the soul is freed of the three body containers. > > > > > > > > 2. OTOH, What I have stated, with reference to Patanjali Sutras, is that Ahamkara is " SUPPRESSED " in Astral and Causal bodies. Meaning > > > > > > > > " Ahamkara isn't the dominant cause of I-ness in Astral/Causal bodies " > > > > > > > > And as a result wouldn't contribute to the acquisition of Astral/Causal Karma. > > > > > > > > Why is Ahamkara not dominant in Astral/Causal bodies ? > > > > The reason I have already given in the first mail in sufficient detail. > > > > > > > > IF THE AHAMKARA IS NOT SUPPRESSED AFTER PHYSICAL DEATH, THE PERSON WILL KEEP CARRYING THE SAME EARTHLY IDENTITY TO THE ASTRAL PLANES, AND BRING IT BACK AT REBIRTH TO THE EARTH. AND THEN, HE WILL RECLAIM HIS LOST TERRITORY AND WEALTH - THE CONFLICTS THAT WILL ARISE WILL BE BEYOND ANYBODY'S CONTROL. > > > > THUS, THE BEAUTIFUL ASTRAL SPHERE ARE SENSED BY THE I-NESS OF MANAS, while CAUSAL SPHERE ARE SENSED BY THE I-NESS OF CHITTA. > > > > > > > > Please read more of " Sri Sri Paramahansa Yogananda " , he has mentioned about all these things (what happens to a soul at death and so on) in such a simplistic manner in his Gita commentaries, that even a layman can understand it. > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > Nitish > > > > > > > > , rajarshi nandy <rajarshi14@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Namaste > > > > > > > > > > Proof by Contradiction > > > > > A person who lives as a farmer, should, after death, remain a farmer in the astral cosmos, and after subsequent astral death, should be reborn as the same farmer with the same name and same identity as in his previous earthly incarnation. > > > > > > > > > > Wrong example. > > > > > > > > > > A person after his death, depending on his tendencies in this life and level of spiritual evolution will retain some aspects of his personality, which means a person who loves music intensely will also in his next birth have an affinity for music. The conditions of the birth and inbetween period depends both on his inherent samaskaras as well the karmic repurcussion. It not, never, entirely once choice. It a mix and match between what one wants and what one deserves. IN all cases, to be able to retain the samskara Ahamakara is needed. Therefore, Ahamkara exists even in beyond the death for a normal human being. Therewfore, Ahamkara is present in the astral/casual plane as well. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Corollary #1: > > > > > A Devata as an Astral-being has I-ness due to his Manas, and doesn't have Ahamkara for the work done by him in all the various physical bodies. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This example becomse invalid since the analysis of the first example itself in incorrect. > > > > > > > > > > -Regards > > > > > Rajarshi > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The upsurge (of consciousness) is Bhairava - Shiva Sutra > > > > > > > > > > --- On Sun, 4/10/09, yeeahoo_99 <nitish.arya@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > yeeahoo_99 <nitish.arya@> > > > > > Re: Gyan Marga > > > > > > > > > > Sunday, 4 October, 2009, 9:40 AM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > || OM TAT SAT || > > > > > Dear Narasimha and Sundeep, > > > > > > > > > > Thanks for your feedback. I thought, I had written a quite clear and explicit mail, but your reply has proved that it needs to be put down in at least 10-fold simpler words. > > > > > > > > > > You read my mail, but picked up notions in an incorrect, incoherent manner, and are reading beyond what is written in my mail. > > > > > > > > > > To prove my point, I would ask Sundeep to read my previous mail on " Gyan Marg " followed by your reply and see if he also picks up the notions in the same manner as you did ? > > > > > > > > > > The only addition required is an example: > > > > > > > > > > Your hypothesis > > > > > Ahamkara is the only I-ness there is for all the beings in all the 3 cosmoses i.e. all the Physical, Astral and Causal-bodied beings. > > > > > > > > > > Proof by Contradiction > > > > > A person who lives as a farmer, should, after death, remain a farmer in the astral cosmos, and after subsequent astral death, should be reborn as the same farmer with the same name and same identity as in his previous earthly incarnation. > > > > > This is not the case, people don't even remember what they were in previous birth, and start their life afresh in a new earthly body > > > > > => Contradiction > > > > > => the original hypothesis is wrong > > > > > => Ahamkara is not the only sense of I-ness applicable to all beings in all the 3 cosmoses. > > > > > > > > > > Inference #1: > > > > > => Ahamkara is dominant sense of I-ness in Physical Cosmos. > > > > > => Manas is dominant sense of I-ness in Astral Cosmos. > > > > > => Chitta is dominant sense of I-ness in Causal Cosmos. > > > > > > > > > > Corollary #1: > > > > > A Devata as an Astral-being has I-ness due to his Manas, and doesn't have Ahamkara for the work done by him in all the various physical bodies. > > > > > > > > > > Inference #1 and Corollary #1 is what I had written in my previous mail on this topic. > > > > > > > > > > There are many other ways to prove the contradiction on this hypothesis (e.g. Powers of beings in physical cosmos < those in astral cosmos < those in causal cosmos). > > > > > > > > > > Your made two additional points that are also invalid. My comments on that is: > > > > > > > > > > 1. I-ness derived from Ahamkara,Manas and Chitta has no innate power to Control any other idea of the 35 Causal-ideas. > > > > > Reason: > > > > > Soul is the only Truth and controller, everything else has an unreal and derived existence. Thus, all the 35 ideas co-ordinate with each other, and not control each other. > > > > > > > > > > 2. A new-born child or a person in Hypnotic-Trance, is able to use his sense-consciousness coherently due to the astral-bodys' sense of I-ness derived from Manas, that coordinates the senses. > > > > > He has no Buddhi or discriminating faculty to interact with manas (sensory-motor mind) and tell it what to do - as you have proposed. Thus, Manas co-ordinates the senses due to its own sense of I-ness, not due to Buddhi. > > > > > > > > > > I hope this clarifies. > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > Nitish > > > > > > > > > > , Narasimha PVR Rao <pvr@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Namaste, > > > > > > > > > > > > Out of the 19 or 35 attributes of individualized consciousness, which one gives the idea " I am this " or " I am that " ? Of course, it is ahamkaraka or I-ness or egosense or ego principle! > > > > > > > > > > > > Is one's idea of " I am this " limited to a physical body? Of course not! If someone says " so and so person is a terrible person " , one may feel offended or if someone says " so and so person is a great person " , one may feel elated. One's ahamkara or I-ness is identifying with the criticism or praise, even though nothing is being done to the physical body and only a name is being used. When somebody calls one by name from distance (as opposed to patting on the physical body and calling), one's consciousness may still think " I am being called " and one may turn towards the caller. As in these examples, one's I-ness does of course bind itself to more than a body. > > > > > > > > > > > > Suppose one gets a dream while sleeping. One may have forgotten totally about the physical body in the dream! One may think of something else as " I " . In dreams, one may see oneself as a different body or may not even " see " onself, but still one may have the sense that so and so thing is happening to " me " . So, even when the mind is drawn away from the physical body, there is still a notion of " I am this " (I-ness) in a dream. That is ahamkara or I-ness or ego principle. > > > > > > > > > > > > Your idea that ahamkara is limited to physical body is absolutely unacceptable. Ahamkara or I-ness extends beyond the physical body. > > > > > > > > > > > > Also, your idea that deities like Agni do not have ahamkara (I-ness) because they do not have physical bodies is incorrect. Of course, Agni does have an I-ness and thinks " I am Agni and this is what I do " . If he did not have that I-ness, he would not do everything he does. > > > > > > > > > > > > Moreover, the 19 or 35 ideas of individualized consciousness do interact with each other, whether we use the word " control " for some of those interactions or not. For example, buddhi (intellectual/ discriminating mind) judges various past experiences, interacts with manas (sensory-motor mind) and tells it what to do. Then manas interacts with karmendriyas (organs of action) and makes them do various things. My buddhi determined what to write and my manas told my hands to type this and I ended up typing. > > > > > > > > > > > > Your point about " what exists as a part cannot be the whole " is totally out of place. The sense of I-ness, the memories and conditioning, the logical mind, the sensory-motor mind, karmendriyas etc are all different parts of individualized consciousness and they play different roles while interacting with each other in different ways. Some of those interactions may be deemed to be controls. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Am not mixing up the terminologies, though my mail didn't > > > > > > > go in details. Your understanding is flawed. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 2. Where did you read this up ? > > > > > > > > > > > > One does not " read up " these things in a single place. There are different abstractions and breakdowns of what happens in individualized consciousness. There are several sources that speak of different aspects of this knowledge in slightly different terms. One will assimilate this knowledge better if one reads as many sources as possible and contemplates. > > > > > > > > > > > > Best regards, > > > > > > Narasimha > > > > > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- - > > > > > > Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ homam > > > > > > Do Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ tarpana > > > > > > Spirituality: http://groups. / group/vedic- wisdom > > > > > > Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro. home.comcast. net > > > > > > Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAst rologer.org > > > > > > Jyotish writings: http://groups. / group/JyotishWri tings > > > > > > Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagan nath.org > > > > > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- - > > > > > > > > > > > > ---- yeeahoo_99 <nitish.arya@ ...> wrote: > > > > > > > || OM TAT SAT || > > > > > > > Dear Narasimha, > > > > > > > Please Ignore my previous-mail, it was not completed - i will try to delete it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Am not mixing up the terminologies, though my mail didn't go in details. Your understanding is flawed. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1. All ideas including the idea of Ahamkara naturally belong to the ideational or causal body, but Ahamkara must be overcome only in the physical body (See point 5.). Astral or Causal-bodied beings (those without a physical/astral body) don't have to fight with the idea of Ahamkara like we do. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ahamkaara/ego controls manas and buddhi also. When manas (sensory- > > > > > > > > ...they are all guided by the sense of I-ness. That sense of I-ness > > > > > > > > permeates through all layers of one's individualized consciousness. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 2. Where did you read this up ? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There is a fine line between the sense of I-ness attributed to the Individual Soul and the sense of I-ness derived through the idea of Ahamkara. Even after a Soul is freed of the three bodies, the individuality of the Soul Atom is not destroyed (Resurrection implies that), while it has already given up the idea of Ahamkara including all other ideas. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Individuality of a causal-bodied being is not due to the idea of Ahamkara because " What exists as a part cannot be the whole " . Thus, the idea of Ahamkara, being one of the 35 ideas of the Causal-body, doesn't account for neither controls the rest of the 34 ideas. Each idea is independent of another, without requiring another idea to act upon it - otherwise your buddhi would always interfere with the functioning of Mind or Ahamkara or the 5 functions of life-forces and so on. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Essentially, the 35 ideas of causal body are the basic causal forces and are not related as cause-effect to each other. Thus, each is independent of the application of the sense of I-ness derived from Ahamkara. Manas and Buddhi being two of the Causal-ideas, their functioning as well as existence is not " controlled " nor " derived " in any way by the idea of Ahamkara. It is very clear when we see those with sharpest Buddhi or Sharpest Mind still carrying Heaviest Ahamkara, because they didn't work upon that particular idea. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But ego/ahamkaara/ I-ness is the very basis of the entire > > > > > > > > individualized consciousness. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 3. Well, as most Physical-bodied beings cannot see through the Astral/causal cosmoses, it doesn't apply in the same way to the finer Astral and Causal-bodied beings who can always pierce the veil of Maya and see the human activities. Thus, what is " the very basis " of the entire individualized consciousness for a physical-bodied (unenlightened) being is not the same as for an astral/causal bodied being. > > > > > > > An Astral-bodied being thinks of Manas/sense- consciousness as the very basis of the entire individualized consciousness. > > > > > > > A Causal-bodied being thinks of Chitta/perceptive- consciousness as the very basis of the entire individualized consciousness. > > > > > > > However, that individuality is of the Soul not derived from any idea, which is why it is not lost when the Astral being loses astral consciousness and reincarnates in the Physical body. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As an example, Devatas, with their finer bodies, are able to work through all the beings in all their physical-bodies simultaneously (like Ganesh resides in the Mooladhara, Agni digests the food, and so on..), never getting controlled by Ahamkara that would require them to say that this particular body is " my body " or that one is mine - unless they incarnate in Physical bodies themselves. Devatas are, however, Astral/Causal- bodied beings, so they would attempt to influence the Manas (Spirit-Possession) of the sense-bound worshipper. Pretas on the other hand, would attempt to possess ones' physical body as well as act out their Ahamkara. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Out of the four antahkaranas, chitta (remembering or conditioned > > > > > > > > mind) and ahamkaara (ego or I-ness) are parts of the kaarana > > > > > > > > sareera (causal body) and remain till the end. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 4. As per the resurrected Soul of Sri Yukteswar in Autobiography of a Yogi - > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Causal body is a matrix of 35 ideas, that include 19 ideas comprising Astral body (Chitta, Manas, Buddhi, Ahamkara, 5 functions of knowledge, 5 functions of Action, 5 functions of life-force) and 16 ideas comprising Physical body (16 chemical elements). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Now, as we all know that Physical body expires as a whole, not just one or two of the 16 elements comprising it go away at a time, Astral and Causal bodies are also cast off as a whole in the corresponding cosmic consciousness - instead of different constituent ideas slipping out of it at different times. Chitta being the staging idea for all other modifications, can be termed as the last to go, when the causal body is finally dropped - hence I wrote as rising above Chitta. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thus, the idea of Ahamkara is bound with Gross Physical vibrations, > > > > > > > Manas with Subtle Astral vibrations and > > > > > > > Chitta with infinitely Subtle Causal Vibrations. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Buddhi being another variable, can be developed or undeveloped irrespective of the other 34. Even illiterate Moodha, through surrender to their Guru, attain freedom from Ahamkara and so on... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > BTW, Chitta is not the Conditioned Mind. Chitta does store the residual impressions of all the past incarnations. However, being constituted of Satwa Guna, it doesn't have any inherent ability to act upon (Rajas) those impressions, just like a container containing an inflammable liquid doesn't automatically burn it down. Sadhana is required for That. > > > > > > > The Samskaras stored by Chitta, including those of Nidra, Smriti, Vikalpa, Viparyaya, Pramana, correspond to the Tamo Guna, while the Chitta itself is Satva Guna - hence the " Satvic - Tamas " represents the SuperEther tattwa (refer my previous mail). The all-perceiving Satvic Chitta doesn't get conditioned by the Tamo-guni Samskaras it stores. > > > > > > > Once the Chitta calms down, cleared of all residual impressions, only Satva Guna remains, the intuition becomes coherent and the Soul reflects on itself as distinct from Satva Guna of Prakriti (Chitta), thus realizing its own nature as Brahman. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 5. > > > > > > > In Patanjali Yoga Sutras: > > > > > > > drigadarshanaktyore katmataivasmita -6 > > > > > > > Egoism is the identification of the seer with the instrument of seeing. Patanjali has used Asmita instead of Ahamkara. > > > > > > > Since astral-bodied beings can use any of the senses like eyes to see, hear, smell, taste and so on (refer Autobiography of a Yogi)... the sense of egoism does not take roots in the astral-body and hence doesn't create Astral Karma. Similarly, Causal bodied beings can use thought to sense everything. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hence, Egotism has to be rooted out while the consciousness is associated with the Physical Body sensory activities or has Physical Karma. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 6. The idea of Manas, as the controller of sense-consciousness , must be overcome in Astral body, through Vairagya. Read autobiography of a Yogi (chapter 43) where Sri Yukteswar illustrates that only those beings who cannot be tempted to go back to the pleasing to the eye Astral cosmos are permitted to stay permanently in the Causal cosmos. Pleasing to the eye implies Sense-consciousness which is associated with Manas. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In Patanjali Yoga Sutras also it is mentioned in the same manner : > > > > > > > > > > > > > > dristanushravika vishaya vitrishnasya vashikara samjnavairagyam -15- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That effect which comes to these who have given up their thirst after objects, either seen or heard, and which wills to control the objects, is non-attachment. Vivekananda has commented that Vairagya is the only way to freedom. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is to be accomplished by transferring the consciousness to Astral-Body and working out the Astral Karma or otherwise as an astral-bodied being. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 7. Patanjali Yoga Sutras: > > > > > > > yogashchittavrittin irodhah -2- > > > > > > > Thus, extinguishing all the movements of Chitta is called " Yoga " . > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is to be accomplished by transferring the consciousness to Causal-Body and working out the Causal Karma or otherwise as a causal-bodied being. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I hope this clarifies. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > Nitish > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , Narasimha PVR Rao <pvr@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Namaste Nitish, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I am afraid you are mixing up terminologies. For example, ego or ahamkaara (sense of I-ness) is not limited to the physical body, but extends to subtle body and causal body as well. In fact, ego resides in the causal body and affects other bodies. Out of the four antahkaranas, chitta (remembering or conditioned mind) and ahamkaara (ego or I-ness) are parts of the kaarana sareera (causal body) and remain till the end. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ahamkaara/ego controls manas and buddhi also. When manas (sensory-motor mind) observes sensory inputs or buddhi (intellectual or thinking mind) analyzes current and past observations of mind or chitta (remembering or conditioned mind) stores various observations or retrieves previously stored observations, they are all guided by the sense of I-ness. That sense of I-ness permeates through all layers of one's individualized consciousness. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Upanishads and various scriptures have broken down the individualized consciousness into various groups by functionality, like five koshas, three sareeras, five praanas, five jnaanendriyas, five karmendriyas, four antahkaranas, six/seven chakras etc. But ego/ahamkaara/ I-ness is the very basis of the entire individualized consciousness. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Though the word jnaana means different things to different people, a jnaana yogi pursues Self by the path of contemplation and discrimination. When a jnaana yogi reaches the final target, all bodies and koshas are merged in cosmos. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Best regards, > > > > > > > > Narasimha > > > > > > > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- - > > > > > > > > Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ homam > > > > > > > > Do Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ tarpana > > > > > > > > Spirituality: http://groups. / group/vedic- wisdom > > > > > > > > Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro. home.comcast. net > > > > > > > > Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAst rologer.org > > > > > > > > Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagan nath.org > > > > > > > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- - > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ---- yeeahoo_99 <nitish.arya@ > wrote: > > > > > > > > > || OM TAT SAT || > > > > > > > > > Dear Narasimha, > > > > > > > > > In my opinion, there are three distinct phases that lead the sould to rise above Ego, Mind and Chitta - corresponding to the three bodies physical (Sthoola), astral (Sookshma) and causal (Karana) resp. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Rising above Ego is Jnana - Merging Physical body in Physical cosmos > > > > > > > > > Rising above Mind is Vairagya - Merging Astral body in Astral cosmos > > > > > > > > > Rising above Chitta is Yoga - Merging Causal body in Causal cosmos > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Finally, becoming established in Para-Brahman is YogaArudha. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Your comments. > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > > Nitish > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , " Narasimha P.V.R. Rao " <pvr@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Namaste, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Gyaani or jnaani is a wise and learned person, who may or may not debate (or even engage) with others. One may become a gyaani using either gyaana yoga or bhakti yoga or karma yoga or raaja yoga. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Gyaana/jnaana yoga is a path of pursuing the Supreme through intellectual analysis. One pursuing that path may or may not debate with others and may or may not read many scriptures, but one will analyze and debate within oneself. One starts with the basic axioms (e.g. Self is imperishable and without a beginning or an end). One will go on eliminating things that one is aware of as not being Self. For example, body has a beginning and end and is perishable. So it is not Self. One introspects like this and, though the process of elimination, finally finds the true Self. That is gyaana yoga. Pure gyaana yoga is very difficult to follow in this age. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Vichaara (contemplation) is the process of sadhana for an adherer of pure gyaana yoga. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > However, the gyaana (knowledge of Self) achieved by such a person at the end is not really different from the knowledge of Self achieved by a person following another path. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Best regards, > > > > > > > > > > Narasimha > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Try the new India Homepage. http://in./trynew > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 5, 2009 Report Share Posted October 5, 2009 || OM TAT SAT || Namaskar Rajarshi, > Is that the only book you have based all your fancy ideas on? Maybe > its time for you go back to some more genuine reading with a open > mind. It will do you a world of good. Before you achieve the state of a Paramahansa like Yogananda did, you are nothing more than a crackpot commenting on " Bhagavad Gita " , that is well beyond your spiritual comprehension and spiritual achievements. Regards, Nitish , rajarshi nandy <rajarshi14 wrote: > > Namaste Nitish > > Check below. > > -Regards > Rajarshi > > > > The upsurge (of consciousness) is Bhairava - Shiva Sutra > > --- On Sun, 4/10/09, yeeahoo_99 <nitish.arya wrote: > > > yeeahoo_99 <nitish.arya > Re: Gyan Marga > > Sunday, 4 October, 2009, 4:45 PM > > > > > > > || OM TAT SAT || > Namaskar Rajarshi, > > Thanks for your contribution - all you have done is to prove what is already known. > > You had already, during you very first mail stated that everything is already known. So then why are you wastingme here? - > > > Therefore, Ahamkara exists even in beyond the death for a normal > > human being. Therewfore, Ahamkara is present in the astral/casual > > plane as well. > > 1. Do you realize what is being talked about and what you have ended up proving ? > > Maybe, most people here realize it better than you do! Thats what makes your statements sound so incorrigible funny to say the least. > > Wherein did I deny that Ahamkara is not present in Astral/Causal bodies ? > > You did deny it quite vehemently. Kindly check yourolder mails. You make a statement A then in the course of discussion you conveniently change it to B and then jump around assuming ridiculous airs. At least, try and remember what you yourself speak. Go back and re check you own mails here. > > Why is Ahamkara not dominant in Astral/Causal bodies ? > The reason I have already given in the first mail in sufficient detail. > > > Thats again your assumption. Ahamkara is indeed a dominant force in all planes untill one reaches a state beyond ego. > > BRING IT BACK AT REBIRTH TO THE EARTH. AND THEN, HE WILL RECLAIM HIS LOST TERRITORY AND WEALTH - THE CONFLICTS THAT WILL ARISE WILL BE BEYOND ANYBODY'S CONTROL. > > > This shows that you have not understood even 1 percent of what has been told to you till now by other in this forum, maybe because you have already decided to close your mind. > > Ahamkara is NOT confied to acquiring or not acquiring of weath. THE specifics will depend on the law of karma. The essential sense of I-ness will very much remain in ALL planes, the speciifcs gets filled in by karmic repurcussions and desires. > > > > THUS, THE BEAUTIFUL ASTRAL SPHERE ARE SENSED BY THE I-NESS OF MANAS, while CAUSAL SPHERE ARE SENSED BY THE I-NESS OF CHITTA. > > Any I-ness is Ahamkara. Period. > > > i Sri Paramahansa Yogananda " , he has mentioned about all these things (what happens to a soul at death and so on) in such a simplistic manner in his Gita commentaries, that even a layman can understand it. > > Is that the only book you have based all your fancy ideas on? Maybe its time for you go back to some more genuine reading with a open mind. It will do you a world of good. > > > Regards, > Nitish > > , rajarshi nandy <rajarshi14@ ...> wrote: > > > > Namaste > > > > Proof by Contradiction > > A person who lives as a farmer, should, after death, remain a farmer in the astral cosmos, and after subsequent astral death, should be reborn as the same farmer with the same name and same identity as in his previous earthly incarnation. > > > > Wrong example. > > > > A person after his death, depending on his tendencies in this life and level of spiritual evolution will retain some aspects of his personality, which means a person who loves music intensely will also in his next birth have an affinity for music. The conditions of the birth and inbetween period depends both on his inherent samaskaras as well the karmic repurcussion. It not, never, entirely once choice. It a mix and match between what one wants and what one deserves. IN all cases, to be able to retain the samskara Ahamakara is needed. Therefore, Ahamkara exists even in beyond the death for a normal human being. Therewfore, Ahamkara is present in the astral/casual plane as well. > > > > > > Corollary #1: > > A Devata as an Astral-being has I-ness due to his Manas, and doesn't have Ahamkara for the work done by him in all the various physical bodies. > > > > > > This example becomse invalid since the analysis of the first example itself in incorrect. > > > > -Regards > > Rajarshi > > > > > > > > The upsurge (of consciousness) is Bhairava - Shiva Sutra > > > > --- On Sun, 4/10/09, yeeahoo_99 <nitish.arya@ ...> wrote: > > > > > > yeeahoo_99 <nitish.arya@ ...> > > Re: Gyan Marga > > > > Sunday, 4 October, 2009, 9:40 AM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > || OM TAT SAT || > > Dear Narasimha and Sundeep, > > > > Thanks for your feedback. I thought, I had written a quite clear and explicit mail, but your reply has proved that it needs to be put down in at least 10-fold simpler words. > > > > You read my mail, but picked up notions in an incorrect, incoherent manner, and are reading beyond what is written in my mail. > > > > To prove my point, I would ask Sundeep to read my previous mail on " Gyan Marg " followed by your reply and see if he also picks up the notions in the same manner as you did ? > > > > The only addition required is an example: > > > > Your hypothesis > > Ahamkara is the only I-ness there is for all the beings in all the 3 cosmoses i.e. all the Physical, Astral and Causal-bodied beings. > > > > Proof by Contradiction > > A person who lives as a farmer, should, after death, remain a farmer in the astral cosmos, and after subsequent astral death, should be reborn as the same farmer with the same name and same identity as in his previous earthly incarnation. > > This is not the case, people don't even remember what they were in previous birth, and start their life afresh in a new earthly body > > => Contradiction > > => the original hypothesis is wrong > > => Ahamkara is not the only sense of I-ness applicable to all beings in all the 3 cosmoses. > > > > Inference #1: > > => Ahamkara is dominant sense of I-ness in Physical Cosmos. > > => Manas is dominant sense of I-ness in Astral Cosmos. > > => Chitta is dominant sense of I-ness in Causal Cosmos. > > > > Corollary #1: > > A Devata as an Astral-being has I-ness due to his Manas, and doesn't have Ahamkara for the work done by him in all the various physical bodies. > > > > Inference #1 and Corollary #1 is what I had written in my previous mail on this topic. > > > > There are many other ways to prove the contradiction on this hypothesis (e.g. Powers of beings in physical cosmos < those in astral cosmos < those in causal cosmos). > > > > Your made two additional points that are also invalid. My comments on that is: > > > > 1. I-ness derived from Ahamkara,Manas and Chitta has no innate power to Control any other idea of the 35 Causal-ideas. > > Reason: > > Soul is the only Truth and controller, everything else has an unreal and derived existence. Thus, all the 35 ideas co-ordinate with each other, and not control each other. > > > > 2. A new-born child or a person in Hypnotic-Trance, is able to use his sense-consciousness coherently due to the astral-bodys' sense of I-ness derived from Manas, that coordinates the senses. > > He has no Buddhi or discriminating faculty to interact with manas (sensory-motor mind) and tell it what to do - as you have proposed. Thus, Manas co-ordinates the senses due to its own sense of I-ness, not due to Buddhi. > > > > I hope this clarifies. > > > > Regards, > > Nitish > > > > , Narasimha PVR Rao <pvr@> wrote: > > > > > > Namaste, > > > > > > Out of the 19 or 35 attributes of individualized consciousness, which one gives the idea " I am this " or " I am that " ? Of course, it is ahamkaraka or I-ness or egosense or ego principle! > > > > > > Is one's idea of " I am this " limited to a physical body? Of course not! If someone says " so and so person is a terrible person " , one may feel offended or if someone says " so and so person is a great person " , one may feel elated. One's ahamkara or I-ness is identifying with the criticism or praise, even though nothing is being done to the physical body and only a name is being used. When somebody calls one by name from distance (as opposed to patting on the physical body and calling), one's consciousness may still think " I am being called " and one may turn towards the caller. As in these examples, one's I-ness does of course bind itself to more than a body. > > > > > > Suppose one gets a dream while sleeping. One may have forgotten totally about the physical body in the dream! One may think of something else as " I " . In dreams, one may see oneself as a different body or may not even " see " onself, but still one may have the sense that so and so thing is happening to " me " . So, even when the mind is drawn away from the physical body, there is still a notion of " I am this " (I-ness) in a dream. That is ahamkara or I-ness or ego principle. > > > > > > Your idea that ahamkara is limited to physical body is absolutely unacceptable. Ahamkara or I-ness extends beyond the physical body. > > > > > > Also, your idea that deities like Agni do not have ahamkara (I-ness) because they do not have physical bodies is incorrect. Of course, Agni does have an I-ness and thinks " I am Agni and this is what I do " . If he did not have that I-ness, he would not do everything he does. > > > > > > Moreover, the 19 or 35 ideas of individualized consciousness do interact with each other, whether we use the word " control " for some of those interactions or not. For example, buddhi (intellectual/ discriminating mind) judges various past experiences, interacts with manas (sensory-motor mind) and tells it what to do. Then manas interacts with karmendriyas (organs of action) and makes them do various things. My buddhi determined what to write and my manas told my hands to type this and I ended up typing. > > > > > > Your point about " what exists as a part cannot be the whole " is totally out of place. The sense of I-ness, the memories and conditioning, the logical mind, the sensory-motor mind, karmendriyas etc are all different parts of individualized consciousness and they play different roles while interacting with each other in different ways. Some of those interactions may be deemed to be controls. > > > > > > > Am not mixing up the terminologies, though my mail didn't > > > > go in details. Your understanding is flawed. > > > > > > > > 2. Where did you read this up ? > > > > > > One does not " read up " these things in a single place. There are different abstractions and breakdowns of what happens in individualized consciousness. There are several sources that speak of different aspects of this knowledge in slightly different terms. One will assimilate this knowledge better if one reads as many sources as possible and contemplates. > > > > > > Best regards, > > > Narasimha > > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- - > > > Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ homam > > > Do Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ tarpana > > > Spirituality: http://groups. / group/vedic- wisdom > > > Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro. home.comcast. net > > > Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAst rologer.org > > > Jyotish writings: http://groups. / group/JyotishWri tings > > > Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagan nath.org > > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- - > > > > > > ---- yeeahoo_99 <nitish.arya@ ...> wrote: > > > > || OM TAT SAT || > > > > Dear Narasimha, > > > > Please Ignore my previous-mail, it was not completed - i will try to delete it. > > > > > > > > Am not mixing up the terminologies, though my mail didn't go in details. Your understanding is flawed. > > > > > > > > 1. All ideas including the idea of Ahamkara naturally belong to the ideational or causal body, but Ahamkara must be overcome only in the physical body (See point 5.). Astral or Causal-bodied beings (those without a physical/astral body) don't have to fight with the idea of Ahamkara like we do. > > > > > > > > > Ahamkaara/ego controls manas and buddhi also. When manas (sensory- > > > > > ...they are all guided by the sense of I-ness. That sense of I-ness > > > > > permeates through all layers of one's individualized consciousness. > > > > > > > > 2. Where did you read this up ? > > > > > > > > There is a fine line between the sense of I-ness attributed to the Individual Soul and the sense of I-ness derived through the idea of Ahamkara. Even after a Soul is freed of the three bodies, the individuality of the Soul Atom is not destroyed (Resurrection implies that), while it has already given up the idea of Ahamkara including all other ideas. > > > > > > > > Individuality of a causal-bodied being is not due to the idea of Ahamkara because " What exists as a part cannot be the whole " . Thus, the idea of Ahamkara, being one of the 35 ideas of the Causal-body, doesn't account for neither controls the rest of the 34 ideas. Each idea is independent of another, without requiring another idea to act upon it - otherwise your buddhi would always interfere with the functioning of Mind or Ahamkara or the 5 functions of life-forces and so on. > > > > > > > > Essentially, the 35 ideas of causal body are the basic causal forces and are not related as cause-effect to each other. Thus, each is independent of the application of the sense of I-ness derived from Ahamkara. Manas and Buddhi being two of the Causal-ideas, their functioning as well as existence is not " controlled " nor " derived " in any way by the idea of Ahamkara. It is very clear when we see those with sharpest Buddhi or Sharpest Mind still carrying Heaviest Ahamkara, because they didn't work upon that particular idea. > > > > > > > > > > > > > But ego/ahamkaara/ I-ness is the very basis of the entire > > > > > individualized consciousness. > > > > > > > > 3. Well, as most Physical-bodied beings cannot see through the Astral/causal cosmoses, it doesn't apply in the same way to the finer Astral and Causal-bodied beings who can always pierce the veil of Maya and see the human activities. Thus, what is " the very basis " of the entire individualized consciousness for a physical-bodied (unenlightened) being is not the same as for an astral/causal bodied being. > > > > An Astral-bodied being thinks of Manas/sense- consciousness as the very basis of the entire individualized consciousness. > > > > A Causal-bodied being thinks of Chitta/perceptive- consciousness as the very basis of the entire individualized consciousness. > > > > However, that individuality is of the Soul not derived from any idea, which is why it is not lost when the Astral being loses astral consciousness and reincarnates in the Physical body. > > > > > > > > As an example, Devatas, with their finer bodies, are able to work through all the beings in all their physical-bodies simultaneously (like Ganesh resides in the Mooladhara, Agni digests the food, and so on..), never getting controlled by Ahamkara that would require them to say that this particular body is " my body " or that one is mine - unless they incarnate in Physical bodies themselves. Devatas are, however, Astral/Causal- bodied beings, so they would attempt to influence the Manas (Spirit-Possession) of the sense-bound worshipper. Pretas on the other hand, would attempt to possess ones' physical body as well as act out their Ahamkara. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Out of the four antahkaranas, chitta (remembering or conditioned > > > > > mind) and ahamkaara (ego or I-ness) are parts of the kaarana > > > > > sareera (causal body) and remain till the end. > > > > > > > > 4. As per the resurrected Soul of Sri Yukteswar in Autobiography of a Yogi - > > > > > > > > Causal body is a matrix of 35 ideas, that include 19 ideas comprising Astral body (Chitta, Manas, Buddhi, Ahamkara, 5 functions of knowledge, 5 functions of Action, 5 functions of life-force) and 16 ideas comprising Physical body (16 chemical elements). > > > > > > > > Now, as we all know that Physical body expires as a whole, not just one or two of the 16 elements comprising it go away at a time, Astral and Causal bodies are also cast off as a whole in the corresponding cosmic consciousness - instead of different constituent ideas slipping out of it at different times. Chitta being the staging idea for all other modifications, can be termed as the last to go, when the causal body is finally dropped - hence I wrote as rising above Chitta. > > > > > > > > Thus, the idea of Ahamkara is bound with Gross Physical vibrations, > > > > Manas with Subtle Astral vibrations and > > > > Chitta with infinitely Subtle Causal Vibrations. > > > > > > > > Buddhi being another variable, can be developed or undeveloped irrespective of the other 34. Even illiterate Moodha, through surrender to their Guru, attain freedom from Ahamkara and so on... > > > > > > > > BTW, Chitta is not the Conditioned Mind. Chitta does store the residual impressions of all the past incarnations. However, being constituted of Satwa Guna, it doesn't have any inherent ability to act upon (Rajas) those impressions, just like a container containing an inflammable liquid doesn't automatically burn it down. Sadhana is required for That. > > > > The Samskaras stored by Chitta, including those of Nidra, Smriti, Vikalpa, Viparyaya, Pramana, correspond to the Tamo Guna, while the Chitta itself is Satva Guna - hence the " Satvic - Tamas " represents the SuperEther tattwa (refer my previous mail). The all-perceiving Satvic Chitta doesn't get conditioned by the Tamo-guni Samskaras it stores. > > > > Once the Chitta calms down, cleared of all residual impressions, only Satva Guna remains, the intuition becomes coherent and the Soul reflects on itself as distinct from Satva Guna of Prakriti (Chitta), thus realizing its own nature as Brahman. > > > > > > > > 5. > > > > In Patanjali Yoga Sutras: > > > > drigadarshanaktyore katmataivasmita -6 > > > > Egoism is the identification of the seer with the instrument of seeing. Patanjali has used Asmita instead of Ahamkara. > > > > Since astral-bodied beings can use any of the senses like eyes to see, hear, smell, taste and so on (refer Autobiography of a Yogi)... the sense of egoism does not take roots in the astral-body and hence doesn't create Astral Karma. Similarly, Causal bodied beings can use thought to sense everything. > > > > > > > > Hence, Egotism has to be rooted out while the consciousness is associated with the Physical Body sensory activities or has Physical Karma. > > > > > > > > 6. The idea of Manas, as the controller of sense-consciousness , must be overcome in Astral body, through Vairagya. Read autobiography of a Yogi (chapter 43) where Sri Yukteswar illustrates that only those beings who cannot be tempted to go back to the pleasing to the eye Astral cosmos are permitted to stay permanently in the Causal cosmos. Pleasing to the eye implies Sense-consciousness which is associated with Manas. > > > > > > > > In Patanjali Yoga Sutras also it is mentioned in the same manner : > > > > > > > > dristanushravika vishaya vitrishnasya vashikara samjnavairagyam -15- > > > > > > > > That effect which comes to these who have given up their thirst after objects, either seen or heard, and which wills to control the objects, is non-attachment. Vivekananda has commented that Vairagya is the only way to freedom. > > > > > > > > This is to be accomplished by transferring the consciousness to Astral-Body and working out the Astral Karma or otherwise as an astral-bodied being. > > > > > > > > 7. Patanjali Yoga Sutras: > > > > yogashchittavrittin irodhah -2- > > > > Thus, extinguishing all the movements of Chitta is called " Yoga " . > > > > > > > > This is to be accomplished by transferring the consciousness to Causal-Body and working out the Causal Karma or otherwise as a causal-bodied being. > > > > > > > > I hope this clarifies. > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > Nitish > > > > > > > > , Narasimha PVR Rao <pvr@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Namaste Nitish, > > > > > > > > > > I am afraid you are mixing up terminologies. For example, ego or ahamkaara (sense of I-ness) is not limited to the physical body, but extends to subtle body and causal body as well. In fact, ego resides in the causal body and affects other bodies. Out of the four antahkaranas, chitta (remembering or conditioned mind) and ahamkaara (ego or I-ness) are parts of the kaarana sareera (causal body) and remain till the end. > > > > > > > > > > Ahamkaara/ego controls manas and buddhi also. When manas (sensory-motor mind) observes sensory inputs or buddhi (intellectual or thinking mind) analyzes current and past observations of mind or chitta (remembering or conditioned mind) stores various observations or retrieves previously stored observations, they are all guided by the sense of I-ness. That sense of I-ness permeates through all layers of one's individualized consciousness. > > > > > > > > > > Upanishads and various scriptures have broken down the individualized consciousness into various groups by functionality, like five koshas, three sareeras, five praanas, five jnaanendriyas, five karmendriyas, four antahkaranas, six/seven chakras etc. But ego/ahamkaara/ I-ness is the very basis of the entire individualized consciousness. > > > > > > > > > > Though the word jnaana means different things to different people, a jnaana yogi pursues Self by the path of contemplation and discrimination. When a jnaana yogi reaches the final target, all bodies and koshas are merged in cosmos. > > > > > > > > > > Best regards, > > > > > Narasimha > > > > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- - > > > > > Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ homam > > > > > Do Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ tarpana > > > > > Spirituality: http://groups. / group/vedic- wisdom > > > > > Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro. home.comcast. net > > > > > Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAst rologer.org > > > > > Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagan nath.org > > > > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- - > > > > > > > > > > ---- yeeahoo_99 <nitish.arya@ > wrote: > > > > > > || OM TAT SAT || > > > > > > Dear Narasimha, > > > > > > In my opinion, there are three distinct phases that lead the sould to rise above Ego, Mind and Chitta - corresponding to the three bodies physical (Sthoola), astral (Sookshma) and causal (Karana) resp. > > > > > > > > > > > > Rising above Ego is Jnana - Merging Physical body in Physical cosmos > > > > > > Rising above Mind is Vairagya - Merging Astral body in Astral cosmos > > > > > > Rising above Chitta is Yoga - Merging Causal body in Causal cosmos > > > > > > > > > > > > Finally, becoming established in Para-Brahman is YogaArudha. > > > > > > > > > > > > Your comments. > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > Nitish > > > > > > > > > > > > , " Narasimha P.V.R. Rao " <pvr@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Namaste, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Gyaani or jnaani is a wise and learned person, who may or may not debate (or even engage) with others. One may become a gyaani using either gyaana yoga or bhakti yoga or karma yoga or raaja yoga. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Gyaana/jnaana yoga is a path of pursuing the Supreme through intellectual analysis. One pursuing that path may or may not debate with others and may or may not read many scriptures, but one will analyze and debate within oneself. One starts with the basic axioms (e.g. Self is imperishable and without a beginning or an end). One will go on eliminating things that one is aware of as not being Self. For example, body has a beginning and end and is perishable. So it is not Self. One introspects like this and, though the process of elimination, finally finds the true Self. That is gyaana yoga. Pure gyaana yoga is very difficult to follow in this age. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Vichaara (contemplation) is the process of sadhana for an adherer of pure gyaana yoga. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > However, the gyaana (knowledge of Self) achieved by such a person at the end is not really different from the knowledge of Self achieved by a person following another path. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Best regards, > > > > > > > Narasimha > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Try the new India Homepage. http://in.. com/trynew > > > > > > > > > > > > > Now, send attachments up to 25MB with India Mail. Learn how. http://in.overview.mail./photos > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 5, 2009 Report Share Posted October 5, 2009 Namaste Rajarshi, Nitish said: <<<i Sri Paramahansa Yogananda " , he has mentioned about all these things (what happens to a soul at death and so on) in such a simplistic manner in his Gita commentaries, that even a layman can understand it.>>> Rajarshi said: <<<Is that the only book you have based all your fancy ideas on? Maybe its time for you go back to some more genuine reading with a open mind. It will do you a world of good.>>> * * * We need to be respectful to rishis, yogis and other seers who passed down genuine knowledge. Paramahamsa Yogananda is a great yogi and a person with a high level of realization, who came to earth for a specific mission and executed it so well. If somebody quoting him is saying " fancy " things, please realize that it may be due to misunderstanding by that person. For example, even Patanjali was being quoted and misused earlier, based on a misunderstanding. If one is pure and ready, just a single book by a good author may be sufficient to give perfect knowledge. But, otherwise, even a really good book may not stop one from forming some wrong notions. Of course, reading multiple good books may give a better perspective. However, let us not explicitly or implicitly put down any good book or author here. * * * I want to make a philosophical comment. Take a simple question: What is the purpose of debate in a matter relating to knowledge and when is a debate over? One with kshatriya temperament may want to assert one's supremacy and correctness and may want to see the opponent kneel down and accept defeat. Such a debater may sometimes get personal and pass personal remarks that are dismissive or condescending or disparaging in nature/tone. But, one with braahmana temperament does not care about assertions of supremacy, victory, defeat etc. Such a debater only wants correct knowledge to be spread and wrong knowledge to be contained, to the best of one's limited ability. Such a debater will stay away from personal comments, focus on the subject matter and make only those comments that promote further understanding and clarification of knowledge. If, for example, the opponent changes his/her stand in the middle of the debate without acknowledging his/her mistake and accepting defeat, it will not be a big deal for a braahmana debater. As long as wrong knowledge is contained, the purpose of the debate is served! There is no need to put down the person. Moreover, a true braahmana debater will display the same braahmana qualities *even when* he/she is confronted by a kshatriya debater. I'd love to see some learned members develop a braahmana attitude to debating here. Spiritual knowledge is essentially a braahminical pursuit and let us maintain a braahminical attitude in it. Best regards, Narasimha Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAstrologer.org/homam Do Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAstrologer.org/tarpana Spirituality: Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro.home.comcast.net Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAstrologer.org Jyotish writings: JyotishWritings Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagannath.org , rajarshi nandy <rajarshi14 wrote: > Namaste Nitish > > Check below. > > -Regards > Rajarshi > > The upsurge (of consciousness) is Bhairava - Shiva Sutra > > --- On Sun, 4/10/09, yeeahoo_99 <nitish.arya wrote: > > yeeahoo_99 <nitish.arya > Re: Gyan Marga > > Sunday, 4 October, 2009, 4:45 PM > > || OM TAT SAT || > Namaskar Rajarshi, > > Thanks for your contribution - all you have done is to prove what is already known. > > You had already, during you very first mail stated that everything is already known. So then why are you wastingme here? - > > > Therefore, Ahamkara exists even in beyond the death for a normal > > human being. Therewfore, Ahamkara is present in the astral/casual > > plane as well. > > 1. Do you realize what is being talked about and what you have ended up proving ? > > Maybe, most people here realize it better than you do! Thats what makes your statements sound so incorrigible funny to say the least. > > Wherein did I deny that Ahamkara is not present in Astral/Causal bodies ? > > You did deny it quite vehemently. Kindly check yourolder mails. You make a statement A then in the course of discussion you conveniently change it to B and then jump around assuming ridiculous airs. At least, try and remember what you yourself speak. Go back and re check you own mails here. > > Why is Ahamkara not dominant in Astral/Causal bodies ? > The reason I have already given in the first mail in sufficient detail. > > Thats again your assumption. Ahamkara is indeed a dominant force in all planes untill one reaches a state beyond ego. > > BRING IT BACK AT REBIRTH TO THE EARTH. AND THEN, HE WILL RECLAIM HIS LOST TERRITORY AND WEALTH - THE CONFLICTS THAT WILL ARISE WILL BE BEYOND ANYBODY'S CONTROL. > > This shows that you have not understood even 1 percent of what has been told to you till now by other in this forum, maybe because you have already decided to close your mind. > > Ahamkara is NOT confied to acquiring or not acquiring of weath. THE specifics will depend on the law of karma. The essential sense of I-ness will very much remain in ALL planes, the speciifcs gets filled in by karmic repurcussions and desires. > > THUS, THE BEAUTIFUL ASTRAL SPHERE ARE SENSED BY THE I-NESS OF MANAS, while CAUSAL SPHERE ARE SENSED BY THE I-NESS OF CHITTA. > > Any I-ness is Ahamkara. Period. > > i Sri Paramahansa Yogananda " , he has mentioned about all these things (what happens to a soul at death and so on) in such a simplistic manner in his Gita commentaries, that even a layman can understand it. > > Is that the only book you have based all your fancy ideas on? Maybe its time for you go back to some more genuine reading with a open mind. It will do you a world of good. > > Regards, > Nitish Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 5, 2009 Report Share Posted October 5, 2009 || OM TAT SAT || Dear Narasimha, The debate is not over, it is over with you as I said that I wouldn't reply on this topic anymore on a mail to you. In my opinion and experience, You simply didn't catch up with the ideas being conveyed . Regards, nitish , " pvr108 " <pvr wrote: > > Namaste Rajarshi, > > Nitish said: <<<i Sri Paramahansa Yogananda " , he has mentioned about all these things (what happens to a soul at death and so on) in such a simplistic manner in his Gita commentaries, that even a layman can understand it.>>> > > Rajarshi said: <<<Is that the only book you have based all your fancy ideas on? Maybe its time for you go back to some more genuine reading with a open mind. It will do you a world of good.>>> > > * * * > > We need to be respectful to rishis, yogis and other seers who passed down genuine knowledge. Paramahamsa Yogananda is a great yogi and a person with a high level of realization, who came to earth for a specific mission and executed it so well. > > If somebody quoting him is saying " fancy " things, please realize that it may be due to misunderstanding by that person. For example, even Patanjali was being quoted and misused earlier, based on a misunderstanding. > > If one is pure and ready, just a single book by a good author may be sufficient to give perfect knowledge. But, otherwise, even a really good book may not stop one from forming some wrong notions. Of course, reading multiple good books may give a better perspective. However, let us not explicitly or implicitly put down any good book or author here. > > * * * > > I want to make a philosophical comment. > > Take a simple question: What is the purpose of debate in a matter relating to knowledge and when is a debate over? > > One with kshatriya temperament may want to assert one's supremacy and correctness and may want to see the opponent kneel down and accept defeat. Such a debater may sometimes get personal and pass personal remarks that are dismissive or condescending or disparaging in nature/tone. > > But, one with braahmana temperament does not care about assertions of supremacy, victory, defeat etc. Such a debater only wants correct knowledge to be spread and wrong knowledge to be contained, to the best of one's limited ability. Such a debater will stay away from personal comments, focus on the subject matter and make only those comments that promote further understanding and clarification of knowledge. If, for example, the opponent changes his/her stand in the middle of the debate without acknowledging his/her mistake and accepting defeat, it will not be a big deal for a braahmana debater. As long as wrong knowledge is contained, the purpose of the debate is served! There is no need to put down the person. Moreover, a true braahmana debater will display the same braahmana qualities *even when* he/she is confronted by a kshatriya debater. > > I'd love to see some learned members develop a braahmana attitude to debating here. Spiritual knowledge is essentially a braahminical pursuit and let us maintain a braahminical attitude in it. > > Best regards, > Narasimha > > Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAstrologer.org/homam > Do Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAstrologer.org/tarpana > Spirituality: > Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro.home.comcast.net > Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAstrologer.org > Jyotish writings: JyotishWritings > Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagannath.org > > > , rajarshi nandy <rajarshi14@> wrote: > > Namaste Nitish > > > > Check below. > > > > -Regards > > Rajarshi > > > > The upsurge (of consciousness) is Bhairava - Shiva Sutra > > > > --- On Sun, 4/10/09, yeeahoo_99 <nitish.arya@> wrote: > > > > yeeahoo_99 <nitish.arya@> > > Re: Gyan Marga > > > > Sunday, 4 October, 2009, 4:45 PM > > > > || OM TAT SAT || > > Namaskar Rajarshi, > > > > Thanks for your contribution - all you have done is to prove what is already known. > > > > You had already, during you very first mail stated that everything is already known. So then why are you wastingme here? - > > > > > Therefore, Ahamkara exists even in beyond the death for a normal > > > human being. Therewfore, Ahamkara is present in the astral/casual > > > plane as well. > > > > 1. Do you realize what is being talked about and what you have ended up proving ? > > > > Maybe, most people here realize it better than you do! Thats what makes your statements sound so incorrigible funny to say the least. > > > > Wherein did I deny that Ahamkara is not present in Astral/Causal bodies ? > > > > You did deny it quite vehemently. Kindly check yourolder mails. You make a statement A then in the course of discussion you conveniently change it to B and then jump around assuming ridiculous airs. At least, try and remember what you yourself speak. Go back and re check you own mails here. > > > > Why is Ahamkara not dominant in Astral/Causal bodies ? > > The reason I have already given in the first mail in sufficient detail. > > > > Thats again your assumption. Ahamkara is indeed a dominant force in all planes untill one reaches a state beyond ego. > > > > BRING IT BACK AT REBIRTH TO THE EARTH. AND THEN, HE WILL RECLAIM HIS LOST TERRITORY AND WEALTH - THE CONFLICTS THAT WILL ARISE WILL BE BEYOND ANYBODY'S CONTROL. > > > > This shows that you have not understood even 1 percent of what has been told to you till now by other in this forum, maybe because you have already decided to close your mind. > > > > Ahamkara is NOT confied to acquiring or not acquiring of weath. THE specifics will depend on the law of karma. The essential sense of I-ness will very much remain in ALL planes, the speciifcs gets filled in by karmic repurcussions and desires. > > > > THUS, THE BEAUTIFUL ASTRAL SPHERE ARE SENSED BY THE I-NESS OF MANAS, while CAUSAL SPHERE ARE SENSED BY THE I-NESS OF CHITTA. > > > > Any I-ness is Ahamkara. Period. > > > > i Sri Paramahansa Yogananda " , he has mentioned about all these things (what happens to a soul at death and so on) in such a simplistic manner in his Gita commentaries, that even a layman can understand it. > > > > Is that the only book you have based all your fancy ideas on? Maybe its time for you go back to some more genuine reading with a open mind. It will do you a world of good. > > > > Regards, > > Nitish > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 5, 2009 Report Share Posted October 5, 2009 The upsurge (of consciousness) is Bhairava - Shiva Sutra--- On Mon, 5/10/09, yeeahoo_99 <nitish.arya wrote: Dear Nitish, My respect for Narasimha and other learned members of the forum overides my intense desire to rip your enlightenment balloon any further. Suffice it to you, I am quite happy with this exchange of mails since you did provide me with a live example of what Aurobindo so beautifully describes as "intermediate zone spiritual wreckage". I personally am a through rational being with negligible spiritual realization, but I am good at spotting self deluded spiritualists. Also, my point had nothing against Yogananda, it was all about you. On a different note, there are some letters available in Bengali from Sri Yukteshwar Giri (Yoganandas guru) which deride Yogananda for some spiritual as well as non spiritual reasons. I don't know if there are any english translation of teh same, but someone who has studied the history of Kriya yoga (like a historian) from Lahiri Baba onwards, would be aware of this. There is at least one very famous Kriya Yogi - who traces his lineage from one of Lahiri Mahasays's son and whos disciples consider him to be enlightened, at least he does posess some verifiable yogic abilities if that counts for anything - who consideres Yogananda to a 'famous yogi' rather than a self realized yogi. Mind you, I am passing no judgement here at all , merely stating some facts which had been presented to me some years back, including the letters of Sri Yukteshwar. Look them up if you are genuinely interested, otherwise enjoy:). -Regards Rajarshiyeeahoo_99 <nitish.arya Re: Gyan Marga Date: Monday, 5 October, 2009, 11:01 PM || OM TAT SAT ||Namaskar Rajarshi,> Is that the only book you have based all your fancy ideas on? Maybe > its time for you go back to some more genuine reading with a open > mind. It will do you a world of good.Before you achieve the state of a Paramahansa like Yogananda did, you are nothing more than a crackpot commenting on "Bhagavad Gita", that is well beyond your spiritual comprehension and spiritual achievements.Regards,Nitish, rajarshi nandy <rajarshi14@ ...> wrote:>> Namaste Nitish> > Check below.> > -Regards> Rajarshi> > > > The upsurge (of consciousness) is Bhairava - Shiva Sutra> > --- On Sun, 4/10/09, yeeahoo_99 <nitish.arya@ ...> wrote:> > > yeeahoo_99 <nitish.arya@ ...>> Re: Gyan Marga> > Sunday, 4 October, 2009, 4:45 PM> > > > > > > || OM TAT SAT ||> Namaskar Rajarshi,> > Thanks for your contribution - all you have done is to prove what is already known.> > You had already, during you very first mail stated that everything is already known. So then why are you wastingme here? -> > > Therefore, Ahamkara exists even in beyond the death for a normal > > human being. Therewfore, Ahamkara is present in the astral/casual > > plane as well.> > 1. Do you realize what is being talked about and what you have ended up proving ? > > Maybe, most people here realize it better than you do! Thats what makes your statements sound so incorrigible funny to say the least.> > Wherein did I deny that Ahamkara is not present in Astral/Causal bodies ?> > You did deny it quite vehemently. Kindly check yourolder mails. You make a statement A then in the course of discussion you conveniently change it to B and then jump around assuming ridiculous airs. At least, try and remember what you yourself speak. Go back and re check you own mails here.> > Why is Ahamkara not dominant in Astral/Causal bodies ?> The reason I have already given in the first mail in sufficient detail.> > > Thats again your assumption. Ahamkara is indeed a dominant force in all planes untill one reaches a state beyond ego.> > BRING IT BACK AT REBIRTH TO THE EARTH. AND THEN, HE WILL RECLAIM HIS LOST TERRITORY AND WEALTH - THE CONFLICTS THAT WILL ARISE WILL BE BEYOND ANYBODY'S CONTROL. > > > This shows that you have not understood even 1 percent of what has been told to you till now by other in this forum, maybe because you have already decided to close your mind.> > Ahamkara is NOT confied to acquiring or not acquiring of weath. THE specifics will depend on the law of karma. The essential sense of I-ness will very much remain in ALL planes, the speciifcs gets filled in by karmic repurcussions and desires.> > > > THUS, THE BEAUTIFUL ASTRAL SPHERE ARE SENSED BY THE I-NESS OF MANAS, while CAUSAL SPHERE ARE SENSED BY THE I-NESS OF CHITTA.> > Any I-ness is Ahamkara. Period.> > > i Sri Paramahansa Yogananda", he has mentioned about all these things (what happens to a soul at death and so on) in such a simplistic manner in his Gita commentaries, that even a layman can understand it.> > Is that the only book you have based all your fancy ideas on? Maybe its time for you go back to some more genuine reading with a open mind. It will do you a world of good.> > > Regards,> Nitish> > , rajarshi nandy <rajarshi14@ ...> wrote:> >> > Namaste> > > > Proof by Contradiction> > A person who lives as a farmer, should, after death, remain a farmer in the astral cosmos, and after subsequent astral death, should be reborn as the same farmer with the same name and same identity as in his previous earthly incarnation.> > > > Wrong example.> > > > A person after his death, depending on his tendencies in this life and level of spiritual evolution will retain some aspects of his personality, which means a person who loves music intensely will also in his next birth have an affinity for music. The conditions of the birth and inbetween period depends both on his inherent samaskaras as well the karmic repurcussion. It not, never, entirely once choice. It a mix and match between what one wants and what one deserves. IN all cases, to be able to retain the samskara Ahamakara is needed. Therefore, Ahamkara exists even in beyond the death for a normal human being. Therewfore, Ahamkara is present in the astral/casual plane as well.> > > > > > Corollary #1:> > A Devata as an Astral-being has I-ness due to his Manas, and doesn't have Ahamkara for the work done by him in all the various physical bodies.> > > > > > This example becomse invalid since the analysis of the first example itself in incorrect.> > > > -Regards> > Rajarshi> > > > > > > > The upsurge (of consciousness) is Bhairava - Shiva Sutra> > > > --- On Sun, 4/10/09, yeeahoo_99 <nitish.arya@ ...> wrote:> > > > > > yeeahoo_99 <nitish.arya@ ...>> > Re: Gyan Marga> > > > Sunday, 4 October, 2009, 9:40 AM> > > > > > > > > > > > > > || OM TAT SAT ||> > Dear Narasimha and Sundeep,> > > > Thanks for your feedback. I thought, I had written a quite clear and explicit mail, but your reply has proved that it needs to be put down in at least 10-fold simpler words.> > > > You read my mail, but picked up notions in an incorrect, incoherent manner, and are reading beyond what is written in my mail.> > > > To prove my point, I would ask Sundeep to read my previous mail on "Gyan Marg" followed by your reply and see if he also picks up the notions in the same manner as you did ?> > > > The only addition required is an example:> > > > Your hypothesis> > Ahamkara is the only I-ness there is for all the beings in all the 3 cosmoses i.e. all the Physical, Astral and Causal-bodied beings.> > > > Proof by Contradiction> > A person who lives as a farmer, should, after death, remain a farmer in the astral cosmos, and after subsequent astral death, should be reborn as the same farmer with the same name and same identity as in his previous earthly incarnation.> > This is not the case, people don't even remember what they were in previous birth, and start their life afresh in a new earthly body> > => Contradiction > > => the original hypothesis is wrong > > => Ahamkara is not the only sense of I-ness applicable to all beings in all the 3 cosmoses.> > > > Inference #1:> > => Ahamkara is dominant sense of I-ness in Physical Cosmos.> > => Manas is dominant sense of I-ness in Astral Cosmos.> > => Chitta is dominant sense of I-ness in Causal Cosmos.> > > > Corollary #1:> > A Devata as an Astral-being has I-ness due to his Manas, and doesn't have Ahamkara for the work done by him in all the various physical bodies.> > > > Inference #1 and Corollary #1 is what I had written in my previous mail on this topic.> > > > There are many other ways to prove the contradiction on this hypothesis (e.g. Powers of beings in physical cosmos < those in astral cosmos < those in causal cosmos).> > > > Your made two additional points that are also invalid. My comments on that is:> > > > 1. I-ness derived from Ahamkara,Manas and Chitta has no innate power to Control any other idea of the 35 Causal-ideas.> > Reason:> > Soul is the only Truth and controller, everything else has an unreal and derived existence. Thus, all the 35 ideas co-ordinate with each other, and not control each other. > > > > 2. A new-born child or a person in Hypnotic-Trance, is able to use his sense-consciousness coherently due to the astral-bodys' sense of I-ness derived from Manas, that coordinates the senses.> > He has no Buddhi or discriminating faculty to interact with manas (sensory-motor mind) and tell it what to do - as you have proposed. Thus, Manas co-ordinates the senses due to its own sense of I-ness, not due to Buddhi.> > > > I hope this clarifies.> > > > Regards,> > Nitish> > > > , Narasimha PVR Rao <pvr@> wrote:> > >> > > Namaste,> > > > > > Out of the 19 or 35 attributes of individualized consciousness, which one gives the idea "I am this" or "I am that"? Of course, it is ahamkaraka or I-ness or egosense or ego principle!> > > > > > Is one's idea of "I am this" limited to a physical body? Of course not! If someone says "so and so person is a terrible person", one may feel offended or if someone says "so and so person is a great person", one may feel elated. One's ahamkara or I-ness is identifying with the criticism or praise, even though nothing is being done to the physical body and only a name is being used. When somebody calls one by name from distance (as opposed to patting on the physical body and calling), one's consciousness may still think "I am being called" and one may turn towards the caller. As in these examples, one's I-ness does of course bind itself to more than a body.> > > > > > Suppose one gets a dream while sleeping. One may have forgotten totally about the physical body in the dream! One may think of something else as "I". In dreams, one may see oneself as a different body or may not even "see" onself, but still one may have the sense that so and so thing is happening to "me". So, even when the mind is drawn away from the physical body, there is still a notion of "I am this" (I-ness) in a dream. That is ahamkara or I-ness or ego principle.> > > > > > Your idea that ahamkara is limited to physical body is absolutely unacceptable. Ahamkara or I-ness extends beyond the physical body.> > > > > > Also, your idea that deities like Agni do not have ahamkara (I-ness) because they do not have physical bodies is incorrect. Of course, Agni does have an I-ness and thinks "I am Agni and this is what I do". If he did not have that I-ness, he would not do everything he does.> > > > > > Moreover, the 19 or 35 ideas of individualized consciousness do interact with each other, whether we use the word "control" for some of those interactions or not. For example, buddhi (intellectual/ discriminating mind) judges various past experiences, interacts with manas (sensory-motor mind) and tells it what to do. Then manas interacts with karmendriyas (organs of action) and makes them do various things. My buddhi determined what to write and my manas told my hands to type this and I ended up typing.> > > > > > Your point about "what exists as a part cannot be the whole" is totally out of place. The sense of I-ness, the memories and conditioning, the logical mind, the sensory-motor mind, karmendriyas etc are all different parts of individualized consciousness and they play different roles while interacting with each other in different ways. Some of those interactions may be deemed to be controls.> > > > > > > Am not mixing up the terminologies, though my mail didn't> > > > go in details. Your understanding is flawed.> > > > > > > > 2. Where did you read this up ?> > > > > > One does not "read up" these things in a single place. There are different abstractions and breakdowns of what happens in individualized consciousness. There are several sources that speak of different aspects of this knowledge in slightly different terms. One will assimilate this knowledge better if one reads as many sources as possible and contemplates.> > > > > > Best regards,> > > Narasimha> > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -> > > Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ homam> > > Do Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ tarpana> > > Spirituality: http://groups. / group/vedic- wisdom> > > Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro. home.comcast. net> > > Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAst rologer.org> > > Jyotish writings: http://groups. / group/JyotishWri tings> > > Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagan nath.org> > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -> > > > > > ---- yeeahoo_99 <nitish.arya@ ...> wrote: > > > > || OM TAT SAT ||> > > > Dear Narasimha,> > > > Please Ignore my previous-mail, it was not completed - i will try to delete it.> > > > > > > > Am not mixing up the terminologies, though my mail didn't go in details. Your understanding is flawed.> > > > > > > > 1. All ideas including the idea of Ahamkara naturally belong to the ideational or causal body, but Ahamkara must be overcome only in the physical body (See point 5.). Astral or Causal-bodied beings (those without a physical/astral body) don't have to fight with the idea of Ahamkara like we do.> > > > > > > > > Ahamkaara/ego controls manas and buddhi also. When manas (sensory-> > > > > ...they are all guided by the sense of I-ness. That sense of I-ness > > > > > permeates through all layers of one's individualized consciousness.> > > > > > > > 2. Where did you read this up ?> > > > > > > > There is a fine line between the sense of I-ness attributed to the Individual Soul and the sense of I-ness derived through the idea of Ahamkara. Even after a Soul is freed of the three bodies, the individuality of the Soul Atom is not destroyed (Resurrection implies that), while it has already given up the idea of Ahamkara including all other ideas.> > > > > > > > Individuality of a causal-bodied being is not due to the idea of Ahamkara because "What exists as a part cannot be the whole". Thus, the idea of Ahamkara, being one of the 35 ideas of the Causal-body, doesn't account for neither controls the rest of the 34 ideas. Each idea is independent of another, without requiring another idea to act upon it - otherwise your buddhi would always interfere with the functioning of Mind or Ahamkara or the 5 functions of life-forces and so on.> > > > > > > > Essentially, the 35 ideas of causal body are the basic causal forces and are not related as cause-effect to each other. Thus, each is independent of the application of the sense of I-ness derived from Ahamkara. Manas and Buddhi being two of the Causal-ideas, their functioning as well as existence is not "controlled" nor "derived" in any way by the idea of Ahamkara. It is very clear when we see those with sharpest Buddhi or Sharpest Mind still carrying Heaviest Ahamkara, because they didn't work upon that particular idea.> > > > > > > > > > > > > But ego/ahamkaara/ I-ness is the very basis of the entire > > > > > individualized consciousness.> > > > > > > > 3. Well, as most Physical-bodied beings cannot see through the Astral/causal cosmoses, it doesn't apply in the same way to the finer Astral and Causal-bodied beings who can always pierce the veil of Maya and see the human activities. Thus, what is "the very basis" of the entire individualized consciousness for a physical-bodied (unenlightened) being is not the same as for an astral/causal bodied being.> > > > An Astral-bodied being thinks of Manas/sense- consciousness as the very basis of the entire individualized consciousness.> > > > A Causal-bodied being thinks of Chitta/perceptive- consciousness as the very basis of the entire individualized consciousness.> > > > However, that individuality is of the Soul not derived from any idea, which is why it is not lost when the Astral being loses astral consciousness and reincarnates in the Physical body.> > > > > > > > As an example, Devatas, with their finer bodies, are able to work through all the beings in all their physical-bodies simultaneously (like Ganesh resides in the Mooladhara, Agni digests the food, and so on..), never getting controlled by Ahamkara that would require them to say that this particular body is "my body" or that one is mine - unless they incarnate in Physical bodies themselves. Devatas are, however, Astral/Causal- bodied beings, so they would attempt to influence the Manas (Spirit-Possession) of the sense-bound worshipper. Pretas on the other hand, would attempt to possess ones' physical body as well as act out their Ahamkara.> > > > > > > > > > > > > Out of the four antahkaranas, chitta (remembering or conditioned > > > > > mind) and ahamkaara (ego or I-ness) are parts of the kaarana > > > > > sareera (causal body) and remain till the end.> > > > > > > > 4. As per the resurrected Soul of Sri Yukteswar in Autobiography of a Yogi -> > > > > > > > Causal body is a matrix of 35 ideas, that include 19 ideas comprising Astral body (Chitta, Manas, Buddhi, Ahamkara, 5 functions of knowledge, 5 functions of Action, 5 functions of life-force) and 16 ideas comprising Physical body (16 chemical elements).> > > > > > > > Now, as we all know that Physical body expires as a whole, not just one or two of the 16 elements comprising it go away at a time, Astral and Causal bodies are also cast off as a whole in the corresponding cosmic consciousness - instead of different constituent ideas slipping out of it at different times. Chitta being the staging idea for all other modifications, can be termed as the last to go, when the causal body is finally dropped - hence I wrote as rising above Chitta.> > > > > > > > Thus, the idea of Ahamkara is bound with Gross Physical vibrations, > > > > Manas with Subtle Astral vibrations and > > > > Chitta with infinitely Subtle Causal Vibrations.> > > > > > > > Buddhi being another variable, can be developed or undeveloped irrespective of the other 34. Even illiterate Moodha, through surrender to their Guru, attain freedom from Ahamkara and so on...> > > > > > > > BTW, Chitta is not the Conditioned Mind. Chitta does store the residual impressions of all the past incarnations. However, being constituted of Satwa Guna, it doesn't have any inherent ability to act upon (Rajas) those impressions, just like a container containing an inflammable liquid doesn't automatically burn it down. Sadhana is required for That.> > > > The Samskaras stored by Chitta, including those of Nidra, Smriti, Vikalpa, Viparyaya, Pramana, correspond to the Tamo Guna, while the Chitta itself is Satva Guna - hence the "Satvic - Tamas" represents the SuperEther tattwa (refer my previous mail). The all-perceiving Satvic Chitta doesn't get conditioned by the Tamo-guni Samskaras it stores.> > > > Once the Chitta calms down, cleared of all residual impressions, only Satva Guna remains, the intuition becomes coherent and the Soul reflects on itself as distinct from Satva Guna of Prakriti (Chitta), thus realizing its own nature as Brahman.> > > > > > > > 5. > > > > In Patanjali Yoga Sutras: > > > > drigadarshanaktyore katmataivasmita -6> > > > Egoism is the identification of the seer with the instrument of seeing. Patanjali has used Asmita instead of Ahamkara.> > > > Since astral-bodied beings can use any of the senses like eyes to see, hear, smell, taste and so on (refer Autobiography of a Yogi)... the sense of egoism does not take roots in the astral-body and hence doesn't create Astral Karma. Similarly, Causal bodied beings can use thought to sense everything.> > > > > > > > Hence, Egotism has to be rooted out while the consciousness is associated with the Physical Body sensory activities or has Physical Karma.> > > > > > > > 6. The idea of Manas, as the controller of sense-consciousness , must be overcome in Astral body, through Vairagya. Read autobiography of a Yogi (chapter 43) where Sri Yukteswar illustrates that only those beings who cannot be tempted to go back to the pleasing to the eye Astral cosmos are permitted to stay permanently in the Causal cosmos. Pleasing to the eye implies Sense-consciousness which is associated with Manas.> > > > > > > > In Patanjali Yoga Sutras also it is mentioned in the same manner :> > > > > > > > dristanushravika vishaya vitrishnasya vashikara samjnavairagyam -15-> > > > > > > > That effect which comes to these who have given up their thirst after objects, either seen or heard, and which wills to control the objects, is non-attachment. Vivekananda has commented that Vairagya is the only way to freedom.> > > > > > > > This is to be accomplished by transferring the consciousness to Astral-Body and working out the Astral Karma or otherwise as an astral-bodied being.> > > > > > > > 7. Patanjali Yoga Sutras:> > > > yogashchittavrittin irodhah -2-> > > > Thus, extinguishing all the movements of Chitta is called "Yoga". > > > > > > > > This is to be accomplished by transferring the consciousness to Causal-Body and working out the Causal Karma or otherwise as a causal-bodied being.> > > > > > > > I hope this clarifies.> > > > > > > > Regards,> > > > Nitish> > > > > > > > , Narasimha PVR Rao <pvr@> wrote:> > > > >> > > > > Namaste Nitish,> > > > > > > > > > I am afraid you are mixing up terminologies. For example, ego or ahamkaara (sense of I-ness) is not limited to the physical body, but extends to subtle body and causal body as well. In fact, ego resides in the causal body and affects other bodies. Out of the four antahkaranas, chitta (remembering or conditioned mind) and ahamkaara (ego or I-ness) are parts of the kaarana sareera (causal body) and remain till the end.> > > > > > > > > > Ahamkaara/ego controls manas and buddhi also. When manas (sensory-motor mind) observes sensory inputs or buddhi (intellectual or thinking mind) analyzes current and past observations of mind or chitta (remembering or conditioned mind) stores various observations or retrieves previously stored observations, they are all guided by the sense of I-ness. That sense of I-ness permeates through all layers of one's individualized consciousness.> > > > > > > > > > Upanishads and various scriptures have broken down the individualized consciousness into various groups by functionality, like five koshas, three sareeras, five praanas, five jnaanendriyas, five karmendriyas, four antahkaranas, six/seven chakras etc. But ego/ahamkaara/ I-ness is the very basis of the entire individualized consciousness.> > > > > > > > > > Though the word jnaana means different things to different people, a jnaana yogi pursues Self by the path of contemplation and discrimination. When a jnaana yogi reaches the final target, all bodies and koshas are merged in cosmos.> > > > > > > > > > Best regards,> > > > > Narasimha> > > > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -> > > > > Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ homam> > > > > Do Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ tarpana> > > > > Spirituality: http://groups. / group/vedic- wisdom> > > > > Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro. home.comcast. net> > > > > Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAst rologer.org> > > > > Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagan nath.org> > > > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -> > > > > > > > > > ---- yeeahoo_99 <nitish.arya@ > wrote: > > > > > > || OM TAT SAT ||> > > > > > Dear Narasimha,> > > > > > In my opinion, there are three distinct phases that lead the sould to rise above Ego, Mind and Chitta - corresponding to the three bodies physical (Sthoola), astral (Sookshma) and causal (Karana) resp.> > > > > > > > > > > > Rising above Ego is Jnana - Merging Physical body in Physical cosmos> > > > > > Rising above Mind is Vairagya - Merging Astral body in Astral cosmos> > > > > > Rising above Chitta is Yoga - Merging Causal body in Causal cosmos> > > > > > > > > > > > Finally, becoming established in Para-Brahman is YogaArudha.> > > > > > > > > > > > Your comments.> > > > > > Regards,> > > > > > Nitish> > > > > > > > > > > > , "Narasimha P.V.R. Rao" <pvr@> wrote:> > > > > > >> > > > > > > Namaste,> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Gyaani or jnaani is a wise and learned person, who may or may not debate (or even engage) with others. One may become a gyaani using either gyaana yoga or bhakti yoga or karma yoga or raaja yoga.> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Gyaana/jnaana yoga is a path of pursuing the Supreme through intellectual analysis. One pursuing that path may or may not debate with others and may or may not read many scriptures, but one will analyze and debate within oneself. One starts with the basic axioms (e.g. Self is imperishable and without a beginning or an end). One will go on eliminating things that one is aware of as not being Self. For example, body has a beginning and end and is perishable. So it is not Self. One introspects like this and, though the process of elimination, finally finds the true Self. That is gyaana yoga. Pure gyaana yoga is very difficult to follow in this age.> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Vichaara (contemplation) is the process of sadhana for an adherer of pure gyaana yoga.> > > > > > > > > > > > > > However, the gyaana (knowledge of Self) achieved by such a person at the end is not really different from the knowledge of Self achieved by a person following another path.> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Best regards,> > > > > > > Narasimha> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Try the new India Homepage. http://in.. com/trynew> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Now, send attachments up to 25MB with India Mail. Learn how. http://in.overview. mail.. com/photos> Add whatever you love to the India homepage. Try now! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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