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Dear Vijay,

 

We can see the difference between a body with prana and with out prana. Can't we? Then, why can we try to narrow our focus and try to see prana/atma sceintifically? I am not for this path, but, to say, that is not a path, is perhaps unfair to all those who are destine to traverse that path.

My statement was not against the "path of Gyana". Indeed it is one of the finest path I am sure.

 

However, my understanding of this path differs a little from your understanding. Gyana, I believe, is not really study of scriptures or scholarly arguments, pros and con, debates etc etc. Gyana, in my opinion, is a state of being, where one percieves a certain oneness in the universe. It is achieved through sadhana. To be constantly in a state of discrimination between real and not-real, rejecting the non-real, such that whatever is finally left is nothing but the eternal. This is the sadhana of the marga called Gyan. But sadhana it is without a doubt.

 

Whatever be the path, sadhana is a must to achieve the results. Adi Shankara, they say, was an expert in the scriptures and scriptural debates. But I feel, he engaged in all these once he had already become a gyani through his sadhana. He was not a gyani because he debated a lot or knew many scriptures, he was a gyani because he had achieved a state of oneness.

 

IMHO, scriptural knowledge is not the marg of gyana.Gyana marg is more complex and requires more than mere intellectual abilities.

 

-Regards

Rajarshi

 

 

 

 

The upsurge (of consciousness) is Bhairava - Shiva Sutra--- On Tue, 29/9/09, pvklnrao <pvklnrao wrote:

pvklnrao <pvklnrao Re: Order of Creation (of mahabhuta/tattwa)? Date: Tuesday, 29 September, 2009, 11:09 AM

Rajarshi,With all due respect, I disagree.There is no question that is useless and there is no answer that is not relavent. The reason we are not able to perceive God is not that God is not there, but, given our current way of thinking, he can not be perceived. By Sadhana, you are trying to calm your mind and infact, make your current knowledge influence irrelavent which allows you to percieve thing you can not otherwise.There are 4 known margas for self realisation. My understanding of any of these limited.1. Bhakthi - Surrender to God. Here you rest all other thoughts but for thought pertaining to God. You do not question any thing related to him and give-in completely to the believe that he is there and is your master. By doing so, you are coming out of the clutches of the regular perceptions or dimentions of this material world.2. Raja - You focus on doing specific postures and concentrate deeply on the way

you do things and draw your self away from the regular senses.3. Karma - Unattached karma. If you can do it, you are not even thinking about God, but, have got him.4. jnana - By questioning available information, using logic and try to break out of current assumptions and try to discover. Saying, this will not yield results is not a wise thing. How ever, perhaps, this is the most defficult. But, with so many others who are experiancing God, not sure, why the wrong in current axioms can not be corrected. Unfortunately, those who are realised, do not perhaps think it is relavent.There is a soul. Now is Soul physical or not? Can it be seen? If not with naked eyes, to see it materialistically, what is needed?We can see the difference between a body with prana and with out prana. Can't we? Then, why can we try to narrow our focus and try to see prana/atma sceintifically? I am not for this path, but, to say, that is not a path,

is perhaps unfair to all those who are destine to traverse that path.Best regards,Vijay, rajarshi nandy <rajarshi14@ ...> wrote:>> Dear Sundeep,> > With all due respect to your query, I wanted to ask, how does it matter? Can anyone here really know for sure which came after which? We can only speculate and guess and retrofit logic and quote one scripture vs another scripture. > > Only practical way to really find out the truth is sadhana. That too if we are destined to find out we will, or else no.> > -Regards> Rajarshi> > > The upsurge (of consciousness) is Bhairava - Shiva Sutra> > --- On Tue, 29/9/09,

vedicastrostudent <vedicastrostudent@ ...> wrote:> > > vedicastrostudent <vedicastrostudent@ ...>> Order of Creation (of mahabhuta/tattwa) ?> > Tuesday, 29 September, 2009, 1:12 AM> > > > > > > Dear Narasimhaji and others,> > In Taittiriya Upanishad (http://www.sacred- texts.com/ hin/sbe15/ sbe15034. htm), the following is the order of creation (Max Mueller interpretation) :> > "From that Self 2 (Brahman) sprang ether (âkâsa, that through which we hear); from ether air (that through which we hear and feel); from air fire (that

through which we hear, feel, and see); from fire water (that through which we hear, feel, see, and taste); from water earth (that through which we hear, feel, see, taste, and smell)"> > This sounds logical to me in that I expected Akasa to be first and earth to be last. I have heard differing opinions though, perhaps in Sanjay Rathji's Brhat Nakshtra but since I dont have the book in front of me, I cant confirm. Do you agree with the interpretation above, if not what is your belief, source and justification?> > Thank you,> > Sundeep> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Add whatever you love to the India homepage. Try now! http://in.. com/trynew>

Add whatever you love to the India homepage. Try now!

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namaste

 

A note from the preface to " Enlightening Expositions " which describes

the life of the former pontiff of the Sringeri Sharada peetham, Sri

Abhinava Vidyateertha Swami --

 

" Acharyal found great joy in meditating on Bala Ambal, and had His

first experience of Savikalpa Samadhi before He was 18 years old. By

the time He was 20, He had already attained Nirvikalpa Samadhi and by

repeated attainment of this sublime state, had become a Jeevanmukta.

But the paradoxical part of this was that Acharyal had already

attained the Highest before He was 20, but His formal lessons in

Vedanta commenced only after He was 23 ! "

 

bhavadiiyaH,

 

ajit

 

 

rajarshi nandy wrote:

 

> Whatever be the path, sadhana is a must to achieve the results. Adi Shankara,

they say, was an expert in the scriptures and scriptural debates. But I feel, he

engaged in all these once he had already become a gyani through his sadhana. He

was not a gyani because he debated a lot or knew many scriptures, he was a gyani

because he had achieved a state of oneness.

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Namaste,

 

Gyaani or jnaani is a wise and learned person, who may or may not debate (or even engage) with others. One may become a gyaani using either gyaana yoga or bhakti yoga or karma yoga or raaja yoga.

 

Gyaana/jnaana yoga is a path of pursuing the Supreme through intellectual analysis. One pursuing that path may or may not debate with others and may or may not read many scriptures, but one will analyze and debate within oneself. One starts with the basic axioms (e.g. Self is imperishable and without a beginning or an end). One will go on eliminating things that one is aware of as not being Self. For example, body has a beginning and end and is perishable. So it is not Self. One introspects like this and, though the process of elimination, finally finds the true Self. That is gyaana yoga. Pure gyaana yoga is very difficult to follow in this age.

 

Vichaara (contemplation) is the process of sadhana for an adherer of pure gyaana yoga.

 

However, the gyaana (knowledge of Self) achieved by such a person at the end is not really different from the knowledge of Self achieved by a person following another path.

 

Best regards,NarasimhaDo a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAstrologer.org/homamDo Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAstrologer.org/tarpanaSpirituality: Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro.home.comcast.netFree Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAstrologer.orgJyotish writings: JyotishWritingsSri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagannath.org

 

-

rajarshi nandy

Tuesday, September 29, 2009 4:03 AM

Gyan Marga

 

 

 

 

 

Dear Vijay,

 

We can see the difference between a body with prana and with out prana. Can't we? Then, why can we try to narrow our focus and try to see prana/atma sceintifically? I am not for this path, but, to say, that is not a path, is perhaps unfair to all those who are destine to traverse that path.

My statement was not against the "path of Gyana". Indeed it is one of the finest path I am sure.

 

However, my understanding of this path differs a little from your understanding. Gyana, I believe, is not really study of scriptures or scholarly arguments, pros and con, debates etc etc. Gyana, in my opinion, is a state of being, where one percieves a certain oneness in the universe. It is achieved through sadhana. To be constantly in a state of discrimination between real and not-real, rejecting the non-real, such that whatever is finally left is nothing but the eternal. This is the sadhana of the marga called Gyan. But sadhana it is without a doubt.

 

Whatever be the path, sadhana is a must to achieve the results. Adi Shankara, they say, was an expert in the scriptures and scriptural debates. But I feel, he engaged in all these once he had already become a gyani through his sadhana. He was not a gyani because he debated a lot or knew many scriptures, he was a gyani because he had achieved a state of oneness.

 

IMHO, scriptural knowledge is not the marg of gyana.Gyana marg is more complex and requires more than mere intellectual abilities.

 

-Regards

Rajarshi

 

 

The upsurge (of consciousness) is Bhairava - Shiva Sutra--- On Tue, 29/9/09, pvklnrao <pvklnrao wrote:

pvklnrao <pvklnrao Re: Order of Creation (of mahabhuta/tattwa)? Date: Tuesday, 29 September, 2009, 11:09 AM

Rajarshi,With all due respect, I disagree.There is no question that is useless and there is no answer that is not relavent. The reason we are not able to perceive God is not that God is not there, but, given our current way of thinking, he can not be perceived. By Sadhana, you are trying to calm your mind and infact, make your current knowledge influence irrelavent which allows you to percieve thing you can not otherwise.There are 4 known margas for self realisation. My understanding of any of these limited.1. Bhakthi - Surrender to God. Here you rest all other thoughts but for thought pertaining to God. You do not question any thing related to him and give-in completely to the believe that he is there and is your master. By doing so, you are coming out of the clutches of the regular perceptions or dimentions of this material world.2. Raja - You focus on doing specific postures and concentrate deeply on the way you do things and draw your self away from the regular senses.3. Karma - Unattached karma. If you can do it, you are not even thinking about God, but, have got him.4. jnana - By questioning available information, using logic and try to break out of current assumptions and try to discover. Saying, this will not yield results is not a wise thing. How ever, perhaps, this is the most defficult. But, with so many others who are experiancing God, not sure, why the wrong in current axioms can not be corrected. Unfortunately, those who are realised, do not perhaps think it is relavent.There is a soul. Now is Soul physical or not? Can it be seen? If not with naked eyes, to see it materialistically, what is needed?We can see the difference between a body with prana and with out prana. Can't we? Then, why can we try to narrow our focus and try to see prana/atma sceintifically? I am not for this path, but, to say, that is not a path, is perhaps unfair to all those who are destine to traverse that path.Best regards,Vijay, rajarshi nandy <rajarshi14@ ...> wrote:>> Dear Sundeep,> > With all due respect to your query, I wanted to ask, how does it matter? Can anyone here really know for sure which came after which? We can only speculate and guess and retrofit logic and quote one scripture vs another scripture. > > Only practical way to really find out the truth is sadhana. That too if we are destined to find out we will, or else no.> > -Regards> Rajarshi> > > The upsurge (of consciousness) is Bhairava - Shiva Sutra> > --- On Tue, 29/9/09, vedicastrostudent <vedicastrostudent@ ...> wrote:> > > vedicastrostudent <vedicastrostudent@ ...>> Order of Creation (of mahabhuta/tattwa) ?> > Tuesday, 29 September, 2009, 1:12 AM> > > > > > > Dear Narasimhaji and others,> > In Taittiriya Upanishad (http://www.sacred- texts.com/ hin/sbe15/ sbe15034. htm), the following is the order of creation (Max Mueller interpretation) :> > "From that Self 2 (Brahman) sprang ether (âkâsa, that through which we hear); from ether air (that through which we hear and feel); from air fire (that through which we hear, feel, and see); from fire water (that through which we hear, feel, see, and taste); from water earth (that through which we hear, feel, see, taste, and smell)"> > This sounds logical to me in that I expected Akasa to be first and earth to be last. I have heard differing opinions though, perhaps in Sanjay Rathji's Brhat Nakshtra but since I dont have the book in front of me, I cant confirm. Do you agree with the interpretation above, if not what is your belief, source and justification?> > Thank you,> > Sundeep> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Add whatever you love to the India homepage. Try now! http://in.. com/trynew>

 

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|| OM TAT SAT ||

Dear Narasimha,

In my opinion, there are three distinct phases that lead the sould to rise

above Ego, Mind and Chitta - corresponding to the three bodies physical

(Sthoola), astral (Sookshma) and causal (Karana) resp.

 

Rising above Ego is Jnana - Merging Physical body in Physical cosmos

Rising above Mind is Vairagya - Merging Astral body in Astral cosmos

Rising above Chitta is Yoga - Merging Causal body in Causal cosmos

 

Finally, becoming established in Para-Brahman is YogaArudha.

 

Your comments.

Regards,

Nitish

 

, " Narasimha P.V.R. Rao " <pvr wrote:

>

> Namaste,

>

> Gyaani or jnaani is a wise and learned person, who may or may not debate (or

even engage) with others. One may become a gyaani using either gyaana yoga or

bhakti yoga or karma yoga or raaja yoga.

>

> Gyaana/jnaana yoga is a path of pursuing the Supreme through intellectual

analysis. One pursuing that path may or may not debate with others and may or

may not read many scriptures, but one will analyze and debate within oneself.

One starts with the basic axioms (e.g. Self is imperishable and without a

beginning or an end). One will go on eliminating things that one is aware of as

not being Self. For example, body has a beginning and end and is perishable. So

it is not Self. One introspects like this and, though the process of

elimination, finally finds the true Self. That is gyaana yoga. Pure gyaana yoga

is very difficult to follow in this age.

>

> Vichaara (contemplation) is the process of sadhana for an adherer of pure

gyaana yoga.

>

> However, the gyaana (knowledge of Self) achieved by such a person at the end

is not really different from the knowledge of Self achieved by a person

following another path.

>

> Best regards,

> Narasimha

>

> Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAstrologer.org/homam

> Do Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAstrologer.org/tarpana

> Spirituality:

> Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro.home.comcast.net

> Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAstrologer.org

> Jyotish writings: JyotishWritings

> Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagannath.org

>

>

> -

> rajarshi nandy

>

> Tuesday, September 29, 2009 4:03 AM

> Gyan Marga

>

>

>

>

> Dear Vijay,

>

> We can see the difference between a body with prana and with out

prana. Can't we? Then, why can we try to narrow our focus and try to see

prana/atma sceintifically? I am not for this path, but, to say, that is not a

path, is perhaps unfair to all those who are destine to traverse that path.

>

> My statement was not against the " path of Gyana " . Indeed it is one of

the finest path I am sure.

>

> However, my understanding of this path differs a little from your

understanding. Gyana, I believe, is not really study of scriptures or scholarly

arguments, pros and con, debates etc etc. Gyana, in my opinion, is a state of

being, where one percieves a certain oneness in the universe. It is achieved

through sadhana. To be constantly in a state of discrimination between real and

not-real, rejecting the non-real, such that whatever is finally left is nothing

but the eternal. This is the sadhana of the marga called Gyan. But sadhana it is

without a doubt.

>

> Whatever be the path, sadhana is a must to achieve the results. Adi

Shankara, they say, was an expert in the scriptures and scriptural debates. But

I feel, he engaged in all these once he had already become a gyani through his

sadhana. He was not a gyani because he debated a lot or knew many scriptures, he

was a gyani because he had achieved a state of oneness.

>

> IMHO, scriptural knowledge is not the marg of gyana.Gyana marg is more

complex and requires more than mere intellectual abilities.

>

> -Regards

> Rajarshi

>

> The upsurge (of consciousness) is Bhairava - Shiva Sutra

>

>

> --- On Tue, 29/9/09, pvklnrao <pvklnrao wrote:

>

>

> pvklnrao <pvklnrao

> Re: Order of Creation (of mahabhuta/tattwa)?

>

> Tuesday, 29 September, 2009, 11:09 AM

>

>

>

> Rajarshi,

>

> With all due respect, I disagree.

>

> There is no question that is useless and there is no answer that is

not relavent. The reason we are not able to perceive God is not that God is not

there, but, given our current way of thinking, he can not be perceived. By

Sadhana, you are trying to calm your mind and infact, make your current

knowledge influence irrelavent which allows you to percieve thing you can not

otherwise.

>

> There are 4 known margas for self realisation. My understanding of

any of these limited.

> 1. Bhakthi - Surrender to God. Here you rest all other thoughts but

for thought pertaining to God. You do not question any thing related to him and

give-in completely to the believe that he is there and is your master. By doing

so, you are coming out of the clutches of the regular perceptions or dimentions

of this material world.

>

> 2. Raja - You focus on doing specific postures and concentrate

deeply on the way you do things and draw your self away from the regular senses.

>

> 3. Karma - Unattached karma. If you can do it, you are not even

thinking about God, but, have got him.

>

> 4. jnana - By questioning available information, using logic and try

to break out of current assumptions and try to discover. Saying, this will not

yield results is not a wise thing. How ever, perhaps, this is the most

defficult. But, with so many others who are experiancing God, not sure, why the

wrong in current axioms can not be corrected. Unfortunately, those who are

realised, do not perhaps think it is relavent.

>

> There is a soul. Now is Soul physical or not? Can it be seen? If not

with naked eyes, to see it materialistically, what is needed?

>

> We can see the difference between a body with prana and with out

prana. Can't we? Then, why can we try to narrow our focus and try to see

prana/atma sceintifically? I am not for this path, but, to say, that is not a

path, is perhaps unfair to all those who are destine to traverse that path.

> Best regards,

> Vijay

> , rajarshi nandy <rajarshi14@

....> wrote:

> >

> > Dear Sundeep,

> >

> > With all due respect to your query, I wanted to ask, how does it

matter? Can anyone here really know for sure which came after which? We can only

speculate and guess and retrofit logic and quote one scripture vs another

scripture.

> >

> > Only practical way to really find out the truth is sadhana. That

too if we are destined to find out we will, or else no.

> >

> > -Regards

> > Rajarshi

> >

> >

> > The upsurge (of consciousness) is Bhairava - Shiva Sutra

> >

> > --- On Tue, 29/9/09, vedicastrostudent <vedicastrostudent@ ...>

wrote:

> >

> >

> > vedicastrostudent <vedicastrostudent@ ...>

> > Order of Creation (of mahabhuta/tattwa) ?

> >

> > Tuesday, 29 September, 2009, 1:12 AM

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > Dear Narasimhaji and others,

> >

> > In Taittiriya Upanishad (http://www.sacred- texts.com/ hin/sbe15/

sbe15034. htm), the following is the order of creation (Max Mueller

interpretation) :

> >

> > " From that Self 2 (Brahman) sprang ether (âkâsa, that through

which we hear); from ether air (that through which we hear and feel); from air

fire (that through which we hear, feel, and see); from fire water (that through

which we hear, feel, see, and taste); from water earth (that through which we

hear, feel, see, taste, and smell) "

> >

> > This sounds logical to me in that I expected Akasa to be first and

earth to be last. I have heard differing opinions though, perhaps in Sanjay

Rathji's Brhat Nakshtra but since I dont have the book in front of me, I cant

confirm. Do you agree with the interpretation above, if not what is your belief,

source and justification?

> >

> > Thank you,

> >

> > Sundeep

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > Add whatever you love to the India homepage. Try now!

http://in.. com/trynew

> >

>

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Namaste Nitish,

 

I am afraid you are mixing up terminologies. For example, ego or ahamkaara

(sense of I-ness) is not limited to the physical body, but extends to subtle

body and causal body as well. In fact, ego resides in the causal body and

affects other bodies. Out of the four antahkaranas, chitta (remembering or

conditioned mind) and ahamkaara (ego or I-ness) are parts of the kaarana sareera

(causal body) and remain till the end.

 

Ahamkaara/ego controls manas and buddhi also. When manas (sensory-motor mind)

observes sensory inputs or buddhi (intellectual or thinking mind) analyzes

current and past observations of mind or chitta (remembering or conditioned

mind) stores various observations or retrieves previously stored observations,

they are all guided by the sense of I-ness. That sense of I-ness permeates

through all layers of one's individualized consciousness.

 

Upanishads and various scriptures have broken down the individualized

consciousness into various groups by functionality, like five koshas, three

sareeras, five praanas, five jnaanendriyas, five karmendriyas, four

antahkaranas, six/seven chakras etc. But ego/ahamkaara/I-ness is the very basis

of the entire individualized consciousness.

 

Though the word jnaana means different things to different people, a jnaana yogi

pursues Self by the path of contemplation and discrimination. When a jnaana yogi

reaches the final target, all bodies and koshas are merged in cosmos.

 

Best regards,

Narasimha

 

Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAstrologer.org/homam

Do Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAstrologer.org/tarpana

Spirituality:

Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro.home.comcast.net

Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAstrologer.org

Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagannath.org

 

 

---- yeeahoo_99 <nitish.arya wrote:

> || OM TAT SAT ||

> Dear Narasimha,

> In my opinion, there are three distinct phases that lead the sould to rise

above Ego, Mind and Chitta - corresponding to the three bodies physical

(Sthoola), astral (Sookshma) and causal (Karana) resp.

>

> Rising above Ego is Jnana - Merging Physical body in Physical cosmos

> Rising above Mind is Vairagya - Merging Astral body in Astral cosmos

> Rising above Chitta is Yoga - Merging Causal body in Causal cosmos

>

> Finally, becoming established in Para-Brahman is YogaArudha.

>

> Your comments.

> Regards,

> Nitish

>

> , " Narasimha P.V.R. Rao " <pvr wrote:

> >

> > Namaste,

> >

> > Gyaani or jnaani is a wise and learned person, who may or may not debate (or

even engage) with others. One may become a gyaani using either gyaana yoga or

bhakti yoga or karma yoga or raaja yoga.

> >

> > Gyaana/jnaana yoga is a path of pursuing the Supreme through intellectual

analysis. One pursuing that path may or may not debate with others and may or

may not read many scriptures, but one will analyze and debate within oneself.

One starts with the basic axioms (e.g. Self is imperishable and without a

beginning or an end). One will go on eliminating things that one is aware of as

not being Self. For example, body has a beginning and end and is perishable. So

it is not Self. One introspects like this and, though the process of

elimination, finally finds the true Self. That is gyaana yoga. Pure gyaana yoga

is very difficult to follow in this age.

> >

> > Vichaara (contemplation) is the process of sadhana for an adherer of pure

gyaana yoga.

> >

> > However, the gyaana (knowledge of Self) achieved by such a person at the end

is not really different from the knowledge of Self achieved by a person

following another path.

> >

> > Best regards,

> > Narasimha

> >

> > Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAstrologer.org/homam

> > Do Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAstrologer.org/tarpana

> > Spirituality:

> > Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro.home.comcast.net

> > Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAstrologer.org

> > Jyotish writings: JyotishWritings

> > Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagannath.org

> >

> >

> > -

> > rajarshi nandy

> >

> > Tuesday, September 29, 2009 4:03 AM

> > Gyan Marga

> >

> > Dear Vijay,

> >

> > We can see the difference between a body with prana and with out

prana. Can't we? Then, why can we try to narrow our focus and try to see

prana/atma sceintifically? I am not for this path, but, to say, that is not a

path, is perhaps unfair to all those who are destine to traverse that path.

> >

> > My statement was not against the " path of Gyana " . Indeed it is one

of the finest path I am sure.

> >

> > However, my understanding of this path differs a little from your

understanding. Gyana, I believe, is not really study of scriptures or scholarly

arguments, pros and con, debates etc etc. Gyana, in my opinion, is a state of

being, where one percieves a certain oneness in the universe. It is achieved

through sadhana. To be constantly in a state of discrimination between real and

not-real, rejecting the non-real, such that whatever is finally left is nothing

but the eternal. This is the sadhana of the marga called Gyan. But sadhana it is

without a doubt.

> >

> > Whatever be the path, sadhana is a must to achieve the results. Adi

Shankara, they say, was an expert in the scriptures and scriptural debates. But

I feel, he engaged in all these once he had already become a gyani through his

sadhana. He was not a gyani because he debated a lot or knew many scriptures, he

was a gyani because he had achieved a state of oneness.

> >

> > IMHO, scriptural knowledge is not the marg of gyana.Gyana marg is

more complex and requires more than mere intellectual abilities.

> >

> > -Regards

> > Rajarshi

> >

> > The upsurge (of consciousness) is Bhairava - Shiva Sutra

> >

> >

> > --- On Tue, 29/9/09, pvklnrao <pvklnrao wrote:

> >

> >

> > pvklnrao <pvklnrao

> > Re: Order of Creation (of

mahabhuta/tattwa)?

> >

> > Tuesday, 29 September, 2009, 11:09 AM

> >

> > Rajarshi,

> >

> > With all due respect, I disagree.

> >

> > There is no question that is useless and there is no answer that

is not relavent. The reason we are not able to perceive God is not that God is

not there, but, given our current way of thinking, he can not be perceived. By

Sadhana, you are trying to calm your mind and infact, make your current

knowledge influence irrelavent which allows you to percieve thing you can not

otherwise.

> >

> > There are 4 known margas for self realisation. My understanding of

any of these limited.

> > 1. Bhakthi - Surrender to God. Here you rest all other thoughts

but for thought pertaining to God. You do not question any thing related to him

and give-in completely to the believe that he is there and is your master. By

doing so, you are coming out of the clutches of the regular perceptions or

dimentions of this material world.

> >

> > 2. Raja - You focus on doing specific postures and concentrate

deeply on the way you do things and draw your self away from the regular senses.

> >

> > 3. Karma - Unattached karma. If you can do it, you are not even

thinking about God, but, have got him.

> >

> > 4. jnana - By questioning available information, using logic and

try to break out of current assumptions and try to discover. Saying, this will

not yield results is not a wise thing. How ever, perhaps, this is the most

defficult. But, with so many others who are experiancing God, not sure, why the

wrong in current axioms can not be corrected. Unfortunately, those who are

realised, do not perhaps think it is relavent.

> >

> > There is a soul. Now is Soul physical or not? Can it be seen? If

not with naked eyes, to see it materialistically, what is needed?

> >

> > We can see the difference between a body with prana and with out

prana. Can't we? Then, why can we try to narrow our focus and try to see

prana/atma sceintifically? I am not for this path, but, to say, that is not a

path, is perhaps unfair to all those who are destine to traverse that path.

> > Best regards,

> > Vijay

> > , rajarshi nandy <rajarshi14@

....> wrote:

> > >

> > > Dear Sundeep,

> > >

> > > With all due respect to your query, I wanted to ask, how does it

matter? Can anyone here really know for sure which came after which? We can only

speculate and guess and retrofit logic and quote one scripture vs another

scripture.

> > >

> > > Only practical way to really find out the truth is sadhana. That

too if we are destined to find out we will, or else no.

> > >

> > > -Regards

> > > Rajarshi

> > >

> > >

> > > The upsurge (of consciousness) is Bhairava - Shiva Sutra

> > >

> > > --- On Tue, 29/9/09, vedicastrostudent <vedicastrostudent@ ...>

wrote:

> > >

> > >

> > > vedicastrostudent <vedicastrostudent@ ...>

> > > Order of Creation (of mahabhuta/tattwa)

?

> > >

> > > Tuesday, 29 September, 2009, 1:12 AM

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > Dear Narasimhaji and others,

> > >

> > > In Taittiriya Upanishad (http://www.sacred- texts.com/

hin/sbe15/ sbe15034. htm), the following is the order of creation (Max Mueller

interpretation) :

> > >

> > > " From that Self 2 (Brahman) sprang ether (âkâsa, that through

which we hear); from ether air (that through which we hear and feel); from air

fire (that through which we hear, feel, and see); from fire water (that through

which we hear, feel, see, and taste); from water earth (that through which we

hear, feel, see, taste, and smell) "

> > >

> > > This sounds logical to me in that I expected Akasa to be first

and earth to be last. I have heard differing opinions though, perhaps in Sanjay

Rathji's Brhat Nakshtra but since I dont have the book in front of me, I cant

confirm. Do you agree with the interpretation above, if not what is your belief,

source and justification?

> > >

> > > Thank you,

> > >

> > > Sundeep

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|| OM TAT SAT ||

Dear Narasimha,

Please Ignore my previous-mail, it was not completed - i will try to delete

it.

 

Am not mixing up the terminologies, though my mail didn't go in details. Your

understanding is flawed.

 

1. All ideas including the idea of Ahamkara naturally belong to the ideational

or causal body, but Ahamkara must be overcome only in the physical body (See

point 5.). Astral or Causal-bodied beings (those without a physical/astral body)

don't have to fight with the idea of Ahamkara like we do.

 

> Ahamkaara/ego controls manas and buddhi also. When manas (sensory-

> ...they are all guided by the sense of I-ness. That sense of I-ness

> permeates through all layers of one's individualized consciousness.

 

2. Where did you read this up ?

 

There is a fine line between the sense of I-ness attributed to the Individual

Soul and the sense of I-ness derived through the idea of Ahamkara. Even after a

Soul is freed of the three bodies, the individuality of the Soul Atom is not

destroyed (Resurrection implies that), while it has already given up the idea of

Ahamkara including all other ideas.

 

Individuality of a causal-bodied being is not due to the idea of Ahamkara

because " What exists as a part cannot be the whole " . Thus, the idea of Ahamkara,

being one of the 35 ideas of the Causal-body, doesn't account for neither

controls the rest of the 34 ideas. Each idea is independent of another, without

requiring another idea to act upon it - otherwise your buddhi would always

interfere with the functioning of Mind or Ahamkara or the 5 functions of

life-forces and so on.

 

Essentially, the 35 ideas of causal body are the basic causal forces and are

not related as cause-effect to each other. Thus, each is independent of the

application of the sense of I-ness derived from Ahamkara. Manas and Buddhi being

two of the Causal-ideas, their functioning as well as existence is not

" controlled " nor " derived " in any way by the idea of Ahamkara. It is very clear

when we see those with sharpest Buddhi or Sharpest Mind still carrying Heaviest

Ahamkara, because they didn't work upon that particular idea.

 

 

> But ego/ahamkaara/I-ness is the very basis of the entire

> individualized consciousness.

 

3. Well, as most Physical-bodied beings cannot see through the Astral/causal

cosmoses, it doesn't apply in the same way to the finer Astral and Causal-bodied

beings who can always pierce the veil of Maya and see the human activities.

Thus, what is " the very basis " of the entire individualized consciousness for a

physical-bodied (unenlightened) being is not the same as for an astral/causal

bodied being.

An Astral-bodied being thinks of Manas/sense-consciousness as the very basis

of the entire individualized consciousness.

A Causal-bodied being thinks of Chitta/perceptive-consciousness as the very

basis of the entire individualized consciousness.

However, that individuality is of the Soul not derived from any idea, which is

why it is not lost when the Astral being loses astral consciousness and

reincarnates in the Physical body.

 

As an example, Devatas, with their finer bodies, are able to work through all

the beings in all their physical-bodies simultaneously (like Ganesh resides in

the Mooladhara, Agni digests the food, and so on..), never getting controlled by

Ahamkara that would require them to say that this particular body is " my body "

or that one is mine - unless they incarnate in Physical bodies themselves.

Devatas are, however, Astral/Causal-bodied beings, so they would attempt to

influence the Manas (Spirit-Possession) of the sense-bound worshipper. Pretas on

the other hand, would attempt to possess ones' physical body as well as act out

their Ahamkara.

 

 

> Out of the four antahkaranas, chitta (remembering or conditioned

> mind) and ahamkaara (ego or I-ness) are parts of the kaarana

> sareera (causal body) and remain till the end.

 

4. As per the resurrected Soul of Sri Yukteswar in Autobiography of a Yogi -

 

Causal body is a matrix of 35 ideas, that include 19 ideas comprising Astral

body (Chitta, Manas, Buddhi, Ahamkara, 5 functions of knowledge, 5 functions of

Action, 5 functions of life-force) and 16 ideas comprising Physical body (16

chemical elements).

 

Now, as we all know that Physical body expires as a whole, not just one or two

of the 16 elements comprising it go away at a time, Astral and Causal bodies are

also cast off as a whole in the corresponding cosmic consciousness - instead of

different constituent ideas slipping out of it at different times. Chitta being

the staging idea for all other modifications, can be termed as the last to go,

when the causal body is finally dropped - hence I wrote as rising above Chitta.

 

Thus, the idea of Ahamkara is bound with Gross Physical vibrations,

Manas with Subtle Astral vibrations and

Chitta with infinitely Subtle Causal Vibrations.

 

Buddhi being another variable, can be developed or undeveloped irrespective of

the other 34. Even illiterate Moodha, through surrender to their Guru, attain

freedom from Ahamkara and so on...

 

BTW, Chitta is not the Conditioned Mind. Chitta does store the residual

impressions of all the past incarnations. However, being constituted of Satwa

Guna, it doesn't have any inherent ability to act upon (Rajas) those

impressions, just like a container containing an inflammable liquid doesn't

automatically burn it down. Sadhana is required for That.

The Samskaras stored by Chitta, including those of Nidra, Smriti, Vikalpa,

Viparyaya, Pramana, correspond to the Tamo Guna, while the Chitta itself is

Satva Guna - hence the " Satvic - Tamas " represents the SuperEther tattwa (refer

my previous mail). The all-perceiving Satvic Chitta doesn't get conditioned by

the Tamo-guni Samskaras it stores.

Once the Chitta calms down, cleared of all residual impressions, only Satva

Guna remains, the intuition becomes coherent and the Soul reflects on itself as

distinct from Satva Guna of Prakriti (Chitta), thus realizing its own nature as

Brahman.

 

5.

In Patanjali Yoga Sutras:

drigadarshanaktyorekatmataivasmita -6

Egoism is the identification of the seer with the instrument of seeing.

Patanjali has used Asmita instead of Ahamkara.

Since astral-bodied beings can use any of the senses like eyes to see, hear,

smell, taste and so on (refer Autobiography of a Yogi)... the sense of egoism

does not take roots in the astral-body and hence doesn't create Astral Karma.

Similarly, Causal bodied beings can use thought to sense everything.

 

Hence, Egotism has to be rooted out while the consciousness is associated

with the Physical Body sensory activities or has Physical Karma.

 

6. The idea of Manas, as the controller of sense-consciousness, must be overcome

in Astral body, through Vairagya. Read autobiography of a Yogi (chapter 43)

where Sri Yukteswar illustrates that only those beings who cannot be tempted to

go back to the pleasing to the eye Astral cosmos are permitted to stay

permanently in the Causal cosmos. Pleasing to the eye implies

Sense-consciousness which is associated with Manas.

 

In Patanjali Yoga Sutras also it is mentioned in the same manner :

 

dristanushravika vishaya vitrishnasya vashikara samjnavairagyam -15-

 

That effect which comes to these who have given up their thirst after objects,

either seen or heard, and which wills to control the objects, is non-attachment.

Vivekananda has commented that Vairagya is the only way to freedom.

 

This is to be accomplished by transferring the consciousness to Astral-Body

and working out the Astral Karma or otherwise as an astral-bodied being.

 

7. Patanjali Yoga Sutras:

yogashchittavrittinirodhah -2-

Thus, extinguishing all the movements of Chitta is called " Yoga " .

 

This is to be accomplished by transferring the consciousness to Causal-Body

and working out the Causal Karma or otherwise as a causal-bodied being.

 

I hope this clarifies.

 

Regards,

Nitish

 

, Narasimha PVR Rao <pvr wrote:

>

> Namaste Nitish,

>

> I am afraid you are mixing up terminologies. For example, ego or ahamkaara

(sense of I-ness) is not limited to the physical body, but extends to subtle

body and causal body as well. In fact, ego resides in the causal body and

affects other bodies. Out of the four antahkaranas, chitta (remembering or

conditioned mind) and ahamkaara (ego or I-ness) are parts of the kaarana sareera

(causal body) and remain till the end.

>

> Ahamkaara/ego controls manas and buddhi also. When manas (sensory-motor mind)

observes sensory inputs or buddhi (intellectual or thinking mind) analyzes

current and past observations of mind or chitta (remembering or conditioned

mind) stores various observations or retrieves previously stored observations,

they are all guided by the sense of I-ness. That sense of I-ness permeates

through all layers of one's individualized consciousness.

>

> Upanishads and various scriptures have broken down the individualized

consciousness into various groups by functionality, like five koshas, three

sareeras, five praanas, five jnaanendriyas, five karmendriyas, four

antahkaranas, six/seven chakras etc. But ego/ahamkaara/I-ness is the very basis

of the entire individualized consciousness.

>

> Though the word jnaana means different things to different people, a jnaana

yogi pursues Self by the path of contemplation and discrimination. When a jnaana

yogi reaches the final target, all bodies and koshas are merged in cosmos.

>

> Best regards,

> Narasimha

>

> Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAstrologer.org/homam

> Do Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAstrologer.org/tarpana

> Spirituality:

> Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro.home.comcast.net

> Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAstrologer.org

> Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagannath.org

>

>

> ---- yeeahoo_99 <nitish.arya wrote:

> > || OM TAT SAT ||

> > Dear Narasimha,

> > In my opinion, there are three distinct phases that lead the sould to

rise above Ego, Mind and Chitta - corresponding to the three bodies physical

(Sthoola), astral (Sookshma) and causal (Karana) resp.

> >

> > Rising above Ego is Jnana - Merging Physical body in Physical cosmos

> > Rising above Mind is Vairagya - Merging Astral body in Astral cosmos

> > Rising above Chitta is Yoga - Merging Causal body in Causal cosmos

> >

> > Finally, becoming established in Para-Brahman is YogaArudha.

> >

> > Your comments.

> > Regards,

> > Nitish

> >

> > , " Narasimha P.V.R. Rao " <pvr@> wrote:

> > >

> > > Namaste,

> > >

> > > Gyaani or jnaani is a wise and learned person, who may or may not debate

(or even engage) with others. One may become a gyaani using either gyaana yoga

or bhakti yoga or karma yoga or raaja yoga.

> > >

> > > Gyaana/jnaana yoga is a path of pursuing the Supreme through intellectual

analysis. One pursuing that path may or may not debate with others and may or

may not read many scriptures, but one will analyze and debate within oneself.

One starts with the basic axioms (e.g. Self is imperishable and without a

beginning or an end). One will go on eliminating things that one is aware of as

not being Self. For example, body has a beginning and end and is perishable. So

it is not Self. One introspects like this and, though the process of

elimination, finally finds the true Self. That is gyaana yoga. Pure gyaana yoga

is very difficult to follow in this age.

> > >

> > > Vichaara (contemplation) is the process of sadhana for an adherer of pure

gyaana yoga.

> > >

> > > However, the gyaana (knowledge of Self) achieved by such a person at the

end is not really different from the knowledge of Self achieved by a person

following another path.

> > >

> > > Best regards,

> > > Narasimha

> > >

> > > Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAstrologer.org/homam

> > > Do Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAstrologer.org/tarpana

> > > Spirituality:

> > > Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro.home.comcast.net

> > > Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAstrologer.org

> > > Jyotish writings: JyotishWritings

> > > Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagannath.org

> > >

> > >

> > > -

> > > rajarshi nandy

> > >

> > > Tuesday, September 29, 2009 4:03 AM

> > > Gyan Marga

> > >

> > > Dear Vijay,

> > >

> > > We can see the difference between a body with prana and with out

prana. Can't we? Then, why can we try to narrow our focus and try to see

prana/atma sceintifically? I am not for this path, but, to say, that is not a

path, is perhaps unfair to all those who are destine to traverse that path.

> > >

> > > My statement was not against the " path of Gyana " . Indeed it is one

of the finest path I am sure.

> > >

> > > However, my understanding of this path differs a little from your

understanding. Gyana, I believe, is not really study of scriptures or scholarly

arguments, pros and con, debates etc etc. Gyana, in my opinion, is a state of

being, where one percieves a certain oneness in the universe. It is achieved

through sadhana. To be constantly in a state of discrimination between real and

not-real, rejecting the non-real, such that whatever is finally left is nothing

but the eternal. This is the sadhana of the marga called Gyan. But sadhana it is

without a doubt.

> > >

> > > Whatever be the path, sadhana is a must to achieve the results.

Adi Shankara, they say, was an expert in the scriptures and scriptural debates.

But I feel, he engaged in all these once he had already become a gyani through

his sadhana. He was not a gyani because he debated a lot or knew many

scriptures, he was a gyani because he had achieved a state of oneness.

> > >

> > > IMHO, scriptural knowledge is not the marg of gyana.Gyana marg is

more complex and requires more than mere intellectual abilities.

> > >

> > > -Regards

> > > Rajarshi

> > >

> > > The upsurge (of consciousness) is Bhairava - Shiva Sutra

> > >

> > >

> > > --- On Tue, 29/9/09, pvklnrao <pvklnrao@> wrote:

> > >

> > >

> > > pvklnrao <pvklnrao@>

> > > Re: Order of Creation (of

mahabhuta/tattwa)?

> > >

> > > Tuesday, 29 September, 2009, 11:09 AM

> > >

> > > Rajarshi,

> > >

> > > With all due respect, I disagree.

> > >

> > > There is no question that is useless and there is no answer that

is not relavent. The reason we are not able to perceive God is not that God is

not there, but, given our current way of thinking, he can not be perceived. By

Sadhana, you are trying to calm your mind and infact, make your current

knowledge influence irrelavent which allows you to percieve thing you can not

otherwise.

> > >

> > > There are 4 known margas for self realisation. My understanding

of any of these limited.

> > > 1. Bhakthi - Surrender to God. Here you rest all other thoughts

but for thought pertaining to God. You do not question any thing related to him

and give-in completely to the believe that he is there and is your master. By

doing so, you are coming out of the clutches of the regular perceptions or

dimentions of this material world.

> > >

> > > 2. Raja - You focus on doing specific postures and concentrate

deeply on the way you do things and draw your self away from the regular senses.

> > >

> > > 3. Karma - Unattached karma. If you can do it, you are not even

thinking about God, but, have got him.

> > >

> > > 4. jnana - By questioning available information, using logic and

try to break out of current assumptions and try to discover. Saying, this will

not yield results is not a wise thing. How ever, perhaps, this is the most

defficult. But, with so many others who are experiancing God, not sure, why the

wrong in current axioms can not be corrected. Unfortunately, those who are

realised, do not perhaps think it is relavent.

> > >

> > > There is a soul. Now is Soul physical or not? Can it be seen? If

not with naked eyes, to see it materialistically, what is needed?

> > >

> > > We can see the difference between a body with prana and with out

prana. Can't we? Then, why can we try to narrow our focus and try to see

prana/atma sceintifically? I am not for this path, but, to say, that is not a

path, is perhaps unfair to all those who are destine to traverse that path.

> > > Best regards,

> > > Vijay

> > > , rajarshi nandy

<rajarshi14@ ...> wrote:

> > > >

> > > > Dear Sundeep,

> > > >

> > > > With all due respect to your query, I wanted to ask, how does

it matter? Can anyone here really know for sure which came after which? We can

only speculate and guess and retrofit logic and quote one scripture vs another

scripture.

> > > >

> > > > Only practical way to really find out the truth is sadhana.

That too if we are destined to find out we will, or else no.

> > > >

> > > > -Regards

> > > > Rajarshi

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > The upsurge (of consciousness) is Bhairava - Shiva Sutra

> > > >

> > > > --- On Tue, 29/9/09, vedicastrostudent <vedicastrostudent@

....> wrote:

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > vedicastrostudent <vedicastrostudent@ ...>

> > > > Order of Creation (of

mahabhuta/tattwa) ?

> > > >

> > > > Tuesday, 29 September, 2009, 1:12 AM

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > Dear Narasimhaji and others,

> > > >

> > > > In Taittiriya Upanishad (http://www.sacred- texts.com/

hin/sbe15/ sbe15034. htm), the following is the order of creation (Max Mueller

interpretation) :

> > > >

> > > > " From that Self 2 (Brahman) sprang ether (âkâsa, that

through which we hear); from ether air (that through which we hear and feel);

from air fire (that through which we hear, feel, and see); from fire water (that

through which we hear, feel, see, and taste); from water earth (that through

which we hear, feel, see, taste, and smell) "

> > > >

> > > > This sounds logical to me in that I expected Akasa to be first

and earth to be last. I have heard differing opinions though, perhaps in Sanjay

Rathji's Brhat Nakshtra but since I dont have the book in front of me, I cant

confirm. Do you agree with the interpretation above, if not what is your belief,

source and justification?

> > > >

> > > > Thank you,

> > > >

> > > > Sundeep

>

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Namaste,

 

Out of the 19 or 35 attributes of individualized consciousness, which one gives

the idea " I am this " or " I am that " ? Of course, it is ahamkaraka or I-ness or

egosense or ego principle!

 

Is one's idea of " I am this " limited to a physical body? Of course not! If

someone says " so and so person is a terrible person " , one may feel offended or

if someone says " so and so person is a great person " , one may feel elated. One's

ahamkara or I-ness is identifying with the criticism or praise, even though

nothing is being done to the physical body and only a name is being used. When

somebody calls one by name from distance (as opposed to patting on the physical

body and calling), one's consciousness may still think " I am being called " and

one may turn towards the caller. As in these examples, one's I-ness does of

course bind itself to more than a body.

 

Suppose one gets a dream while sleeping. One may have forgotten totally about

the physical body in the dream! One may think of something else as " I " . In

dreams, one may see oneself as a different body or may not even " see " onself,

but still one may have the sense that so and so thing is happening to " me " . So,

even when the mind is drawn away from the physical body, there is still a notion

of " I am this " (I-ness) in a dream. That is ahamkara or I-ness or ego principle.

 

Your idea that ahamkara is limited to physical body is absolutely unacceptable.

Ahamkara or I-ness extends beyond the physical body.

 

Also, your idea that deities like Agni do not have ahamkara (I-ness) because

they do not have physical bodies is incorrect. Of course, Agni does have an

I-ness and thinks " I am Agni and this is what I do " . If he did not have that

I-ness, he would not do everything he does.

 

Moreover, the 19 or 35 ideas of individualized consciousness do interact with

each other, whether we use the word " control " for some of those interactions or

not. For example, buddhi (intellectual/discriminating mind) judges various past

experiences, interacts with manas (sensory-motor mind) and tells it what to do.

Then manas interacts with karmendriyas (organs of action) and makes them do

various things. My buddhi determined what to write and my manas told my hands to

type this and I ended up typing.

 

Your point about " what exists as a part cannot be the whole " is totally out of

place. The sense of I-ness, the memories and conditioning, the logical mind, the

sensory-motor mind, karmendriyas etc are all different parts of individualized

consciousness and they play different roles while interacting with each other in

different ways. Some of those interactions may be deemed to be controls.

 

> Am not mixing up the terminologies, though my mail didn't

> go in details. Your understanding is flawed.

>

> 2. Where did you read this up ?

 

One does not " read up " these things in a single place. There are different

abstractions and breakdowns of what happens in individualized consciousness.

There are several sources that speak of different aspects of this knowledge in

slightly different terms. One will assimilate this knowledge better if one reads

as many sources as possible and contemplates.

 

Best regards,

Narasimha

 

Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAstrologer.org/homam

Do Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAstrologer.org/tarpana

Spirituality:

Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro.home.comcast.net

Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAstrologer.org

Jyotish writings: JyotishWritings

Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagannath.org

 

 

---- yeeahoo_99 <nitish.arya wrote:

> || OM TAT SAT ||

> Dear Narasimha,

> Please Ignore my previous-mail, it was not completed - i will try to delete

it.

>

> Am not mixing up the terminologies, though my mail didn't go in details.

Your understanding is flawed.

>

> 1. All ideas including the idea of Ahamkara naturally belong to the ideational

or causal body, but Ahamkara must be overcome only in the physical body (See

point 5.). Astral or Causal-bodied beings (those without a physical/astral body)

don't have to fight with the idea of Ahamkara like we do.

>

> > Ahamkaara/ego controls manas and buddhi also. When manas (sensory-

> > ...they are all guided by the sense of I-ness. That sense of I-ness

> > permeates through all layers of one's individualized consciousness.

>

> 2. Where did you read this up ?

>

> There is a fine line between the sense of I-ness attributed to the

Individual Soul and the sense of I-ness derived through the idea of Ahamkara.

Even after a Soul is freed of the three bodies, the individuality of the Soul

Atom is not destroyed (Resurrection implies that), while it has already given up

the idea of Ahamkara including all other ideas.

>

> Individuality of a causal-bodied being is not due to the idea of Ahamkara

because " What exists as a part cannot be the whole " . Thus, the idea of Ahamkara,

being one of the 35 ideas of the Causal-body, doesn't account for neither

controls the rest of the 34 ideas. Each idea is independent of another, without

requiring another idea to act upon it - otherwise your buddhi would always

interfere with the functioning of Mind or Ahamkara or the 5 functions of

life-forces and so on.

>

> Essentially, the 35 ideas of causal body are the basic causal forces and are

not related as cause-effect to each other. Thus, each is independent of the

application of the sense of I-ness derived from Ahamkara. Manas and Buddhi being

two of the Causal-ideas, their functioning as well as existence is not

" controlled " nor " derived " in any way by the idea of Ahamkara. It is very clear

when we see those with sharpest Buddhi or Sharpest Mind still carrying Heaviest

Ahamkara, because they didn't work upon that particular idea.

>

>

> > But ego/ahamkaara/I-ness is the very basis of the entire

> > individualized consciousness.

>

> 3. Well, as most Physical-bodied beings cannot see through the Astral/causal

cosmoses, it doesn't apply in the same way to the finer Astral and Causal-bodied

beings who can always pierce the veil of Maya and see the human activities.

Thus, what is " the very basis " of the entire individualized consciousness for a

physical-bodied (unenlightened) being is not the same as for an astral/causal

bodied being.

> An Astral-bodied being thinks of Manas/sense-consciousness as the very basis

of the entire individualized consciousness.

> A Causal-bodied being thinks of Chitta/perceptive-consciousness as the very

basis of the entire individualized consciousness.

> However, that individuality is of the Soul not derived from any idea, which

is why it is not lost when the Astral being loses astral consciousness and

reincarnates in the Physical body.

>

> As an example, Devatas, with their finer bodies, are able to work through

all the beings in all their physical-bodies simultaneously (like Ganesh resides

in the Mooladhara, Agni digests the food, and so on..), never getting controlled

by Ahamkara that would require them to say that this particular body is " my

body " or that one is mine - unless they incarnate in Physical bodies themselves.

Devatas are, however, Astral/Causal-bodied beings, so they would attempt to

influence the Manas (Spirit-Possession) of the sense-bound worshipper. Pretas on

the other hand, would attempt to possess ones' physical body as well as act out

their Ahamkara.

>

>

> > Out of the four antahkaranas, chitta (remembering or conditioned

> > mind) and ahamkaara (ego or I-ness) are parts of the kaarana

> > sareera (causal body) and remain till the end.

>

> 4. As per the resurrected Soul of Sri Yukteswar in Autobiography of a Yogi -

>

> Causal body is a matrix of 35 ideas, that include 19 ideas comprising Astral

body (Chitta, Manas, Buddhi, Ahamkara, 5 functions of knowledge, 5 functions of

Action, 5 functions of life-force) and 16 ideas comprising Physical body (16

chemical elements).

>

> Now, as we all know that Physical body expires as a whole, not just one or

two of the 16 elements comprising it go away at a time, Astral and Causal bodies

are also cast off as a whole in the corresponding cosmic consciousness - instead

of different constituent ideas slipping out of it at different times. Chitta

being the staging idea for all other modifications, can be termed as the last to

go, when the causal body is finally dropped - hence I wrote as rising above

Chitta.

>

> Thus, the idea of Ahamkara is bound with Gross Physical vibrations,

> Manas with Subtle Astral vibrations and

> Chitta with infinitely Subtle Causal Vibrations.

>

> Buddhi being another variable, can be developed or undeveloped irrespective

of the other 34. Even illiterate Moodha, through surrender to their Guru, attain

freedom from Ahamkara and so on...

>

> BTW, Chitta is not the Conditioned Mind. Chitta does store the residual

impressions of all the past incarnations. However, being constituted of Satwa

Guna, it doesn't have any inherent ability to act upon (Rajas) those

impressions, just like a container containing an inflammable liquid doesn't

automatically burn it down. Sadhana is required for That.

> The Samskaras stored by Chitta, including those of Nidra, Smriti, Vikalpa,

Viparyaya, Pramana, correspond to the Tamo Guna, while the Chitta itself is

Satva Guna - hence the " Satvic - Tamas " represents the SuperEther tattwa (refer

my previous mail). The all-perceiving Satvic Chitta doesn't get conditioned by

the Tamo-guni Samskaras it stores.

> Once the Chitta calms down, cleared of all residual impressions, only Satva

Guna remains, the intuition becomes coherent and the Soul reflects on itself as

distinct from Satva Guna of Prakriti (Chitta), thus realizing its own nature as

Brahman.

>

> 5.

> In Patanjali Yoga Sutras:

> drigadarshanaktyorekatmataivasmita -6

> Egoism is the identification of the seer with the instrument of seeing.

Patanjali has used Asmita instead of Ahamkara.

> Since astral-bodied beings can use any of the senses like eyes to see, hear,

smell, taste and so on (refer Autobiography of a Yogi)... the sense of egoism

does not take roots in the astral-body and hence doesn't create Astral Karma.

Similarly, Causal bodied beings can use thought to sense everything.

>

> Hence, Egotism has to be rooted out while the consciousness is associated

with the Physical Body sensory activities or has Physical Karma.

>

> 6. The idea of Manas, as the controller of sense-consciousness, must be

overcome in Astral body, through Vairagya. Read autobiography of a Yogi (chapter

43) where Sri Yukteswar illustrates that only those beings who cannot be tempted

to go back to the pleasing to the eye Astral cosmos are permitted to stay

permanently in the Causal cosmos. Pleasing to the eye implies

Sense-consciousness which is associated with Manas.

>

> In Patanjali Yoga Sutras also it is mentioned in the same manner :

>

> dristanushravika vishaya vitrishnasya vashikara samjnavairagyam -15-

>

> That effect which comes to these who have given up their thirst after

objects, either seen or heard, and which wills to control the objects, is

non-attachment. Vivekananda has commented that Vairagya is the only way to

freedom.

>

> This is to be accomplished by transferring the consciousness to Astral-Body

and working out the Astral Karma or otherwise as an astral-bodied being.

>

> 7. Patanjali Yoga Sutras:

> yogashchittavrittinirodhah -2-

> Thus, extinguishing all the movements of Chitta is called " Yoga " .

>

> This is to be accomplished by transferring the consciousness to Causal-Body

and working out the Causal Karma or otherwise as a causal-bodied being.

>

> I hope this clarifies.

>

> Regards,

> Nitish

>

> , Narasimha PVR Rao <pvr wrote:

> >

> > Namaste Nitish,

> >

> > I am afraid you are mixing up terminologies. For example, ego or ahamkaara

(sense of I-ness) is not limited to the physical body, but extends to subtle

body and causal body as well. In fact, ego resides in the causal body and

affects other bodies. Out of the four antahkaranas, chitta (remembering or

conditioned mind) and ahamkaara (ego or I-ness) are parts of the kaarana sareera

(causal body) and remain till the end.

> >

> > Ahamkaara/ego controls manas and buddhi also. When manas (sensory-motor

mind) observes sensory inputs or buddhi (intellectual or thinking mind) analyzes

current and past observations of mind or chitta (remembering or conditioned

mind) stores various observations or retrieves previously stored observations,

they are all guided by the sense of I-ness. That sense of I-ness permeates

through all layers of one's individualized consciousness.

> >

> > Upanishads and various scriptures have broken down the individualized

consciousness into various groups by functionality, like five koshas, three

sareeras, five praanas, five jnaanendriyas, five karmendriyas, four

antahkaranas, six/seven chakras etc. But ego/ahamkaara/I-ness is the very basis

of the entire individualized consciousness.

> >

> > Though the word jnaana means different things to different people, a jnaana

yogi pursues Self by the path of contemplation and discrimination. When a jnaana

yogi reaches the final target, all bodies and koshas are merged in cosmos.

> >

> > Best regards,

> > Narasimha

> >

> > Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAstrologer.org/homam

> > Do Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAstrologer.org/tarpana

> > Spirituality:

> > Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro.home.comcast.net

> > Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAstrologer.org

> > Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagannath.org

> >

> >

> > ---- yeeahoo_99 <nitish.arya wrote:

> > > || OM TAT SAT ||

> > > Dear Narasimha,

> > > In my opinion, there are three distinct phases that lead the sould to

rise above Ego, Mind and Chitta - corresponding to the three bodies physical

(Sthoola), astral (Sookshma) and causal (Karana) resp.

> > >

> > > Rising above Ego is Jnana - Merging Physical body in Physical cosmos

> > > Rising above Mind is Vairagya - Merging Astral body in Astral cosmos

> > > Rising above Chitta is Yoga - Merging Causal body in Causal cosmos

> > >

> > > Finally, becoming established in Para-Brahman is YogaArudha.

> > >

> > > Your comments.

> > > Regards,

> > > Nitish

> > >

> > > , " Narasimha P.V.R. Rao " <pvr@> wrote:

> > > >

> > > > Namaste,

> > > >

> > > > Gyaani or jnaani is a wise and learned person, who may or may not debate

(or even engage) with others. One may become a gyaani using either gyaana yoga

or bhakti yoga or karma yoga or raaja yoga.

> > > >

> > > > Gyaana/jnaana yoga is a path of pursuing the Supreme through

intellectual analysis. One pursuing that path may or may not debate with others

and may or may not read many scriptures, but one will analyze and debate within

oneself. One starts with the basic axioms (e.g. Self is imperishable and without

a beginning or an end). One will go on eliminating things that one is aware of

as not being Self. For example, body has a beginning and end and is perishable.

So it is not Self. One introspects like this and, though the process of

elimination, finally finds the true Self. That is gyaana yoga. Pure gyaana yoga

is very difficult to follow in this age.

> > > >

> > > > Vichaara (contemplation) is the process of sadhana for an adherer of

pure gyaana yoga.

> > > >

> > > > However, the gyaana (knowledge of Self) achieved by such a person at the

end is not really different from the knowledge of Self achieved by a person

following another path.

> > > >

> > > > Best regards,

> > > > Narasimha

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|| OM TAT SAT ||

Dear Narasimha and Sundeep,

 

Thanks for your feedback. I thought, I had written a quite clear and explicit

mail, but your reply has proved that it needs to be put down in at least 10-fold

simpler words.

 

You read my mail, but picked up notions in an incorrect, incoherent manner,

and are reading beyond what is written in my mail.

 

To prove my point, I would ask Sundeep to read my previous mail on " Gyan

Marg " followed by your reply and see if he also picks up the notions in the same

manner as you did ?

 

The only addition required is an example:

 

Your hypothesis

Ahamkara is the only I-ness there is for all the beings in all the 3 cosmoses

i.e. all the Physical, Astral and Causal-bodied beings.

 

Proof by Contradiction

A person who lives as a farmer, should, after death, remain a farmer in the

astral cosmos, and after subsequent astral death, should be reborn as the same

farmer with the same name and same identity as in his previous earthly

incarnation.

This is not the case, people don't even remember what they were in previous

birth, and start their life afresh in a new earthly body

=> Contradiction

=> the original hypothesis is wrong

=> Ahamkara is not the only sense of I-ness applicable to all beings in all

the 3 cosmoses.

 

Inference #1:

=> Ahamkara is dominant sense of I-ness in Physical Cosmos.

=> Manas is dominant sense of I-ness in Astral Cosmos.

=> Chitta is dominant sense of I-ness in Causal Cosmos.

 

Corollary #1:

A Devata as an Astral-being has I-ness due to his Manas, and doesn't have

Ahamkara for the work done by him in all the various physical bodies.

 

Inference #1 and Corollary #1 is what I had written in my previous mail on

this topic.

 

There are many other ways to prove the contradiction on this hypothesis

(e.g. Powers of beings in physical cosmos < those in astral cosmos < those in

causal cosmos).

 

Your made two additional points that are also invalid. My comments on that

is:

 

1. I-ness derived from Ahamkara,Manas and Chitta has no innate power to Control

any other idea of the 35 Causal-ideas.

Reason:

Soul is the only Truth and controller, everything else has an unreal and

derived existence. Thus, all the 35 ideas co-ordinate with each other, and not

control each other.

 

2. A new-born child or a person in Hypnotic-Trance, is able to use his

sense-consciousness coherently due to the astral-bodys' sense of I-ness derived

from Manas, that coordinates the senses.

He has no Buddhi or discriminating faculty to interact with manas

(sensory-motor mind) and tell it what to do - as you have proposed. Thus, Manas

co-ordinates the senses due to its own sense of I-ness, not due to Buddhi.

 

I hope this clarifies.

 

Regards,

Nitish

 

 

, Narasimha PVR Rao <pvr wrote:

>

> Namaste,

>

> Out of the 19 or 35 attributes of individualized consciousness, which one

gives the idea " I am this " or " I am that " ? Of course, it is ahamkaraka or I-ness

or egosense or ego principle!

>

> Is one's idea of " I am this " limited to a physical body? Of course not! If

someone says " so and so person is a terrible person " , one may feel offended or

if someone says " so and so person is a great person " , one may feel elated. One's

ahamkara or I-ness is identifying with the criticism or praise, even though

nothing is being done to the physical body and only a name is being used. When

somebody calls one by name from distance (as opposed to patting on the physical

body and calling), one's consciousness may still think " I am being called " and

one may turn towards the caller. As in these examples, one's I-ness does of

course bind itself to more than a body.

>

> Suppose one gets a dream while sleeping. One may have forgotten totally about

the physical body in the dream! One may think of something else as " I " . In

dreams, one may see oneself as a different body or may not even " see " onself,

but still one may have the sense that so and so thing is happening to " me " . So,

even when the mind is drawn away from the physical body, there is still a notion

of " I am this " (I-ness) in a dream. That is ahamkara or I-ness or ego principle.

>

> Your idea that ahamkara is limited to physical body is absolutely

unacceptable. Ahamkara or I-ness extends beyond the physical body.

>

> Also, your idea that deities like Agni do not have ahamkara (I-ness) because

they do not have physical bodies is incorrect. Of course, Agni does have an

I-ness and thinks " I am Agni and this is what I do " . If he did not have that

I-ness, he would not do everything he does.

>

> Moreover, the 19 or 35 ideas of individualized consciousness do interact with

each other, whether we use the word " control " for some of those interactions or

not. For example, buddhi (intellectual/discriminating mind) judges various past

experiences, interacts with manas (sensory-motor mind) and tells it what to do.

Then manas interacts with karmendriyas (organs of action) and makes them do

various things. My buddhi determined what to write and my manas told my hands to

type this and I ended up typing.

>

> Your point about " what exists as a part cannot be the whole " is totally out of

place. The sense of I-ness, the memories and conditioning, the logical mind, the

sensory-motor mind, karmendriyas etc are all different parts of individualized

consciousness and they play different roles while interacting with each other in

different ways. Some of those interactions may be deemed to be controls.

>

> > Am not mixing up the terminologies, though my mail didn't

> > go in details. Your understanding is flawed.

> >

> > 2. Where did you read this up ?

>

> One does not " read up " these things in a single place. There are different

abstractions and breakdowns of what happens in individualized consciousness.

There are several sources that speak of different aspects of this knowledge in

slightly different terms. One will assimilate this knowledge better if one reads

as many sources as possible and contemplates.

>

> Best regards,

> Narasimha

>

> Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAstrologer.org/homam

> Do Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAstrologer.org/tarpana

> Spirituality:

> Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro.home.comcast.net

> Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAstrologer.org

> Jyotish writings: JyotishWritings

> Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagannath.org

>

>

> ---- yeeahoo_99 <nitish.arya wrote:

> > || OM TAT SAT ||

> > Dear Narasimha,

> > Please Ignore my previous-mail, it was not completed - i will try to

delete it.

> >

> > Am not mixing up the terminologies, though my mail didn't go in details.

Your understanding is flawed.

> >

> > 1. All ideas including the idea of Ahamkara naturally belong to the

ideational or causal body, but Ahamkara must be overcome only in the physical

body (See point 5.). Astral or Causal-bodied beings (those without a

physical/astral body) don't have to fight with the idea of Ahamkara like we do.

> >

> > > Ahamkaara/ego controls manas and buddhi also. When manas (sensory-

> > > ...they are all guided by the sense of I-ness. That sense of I-ness

> > > permeates through all layers of one's individualized consciousness.

> >

> > 2. Where did you read this up ?

> >

> > There is a fine line between the sense of I-ness attributed to the

Individual Soul and the sense of I-ness derived through the idea of Ahamkara.

Even after a Soul is freed of the three bodies, the individuality of the Soul

Atom is not destroyed (Resurrection implies that), while it has already given up

the idea of Ahamkara including all other ideas.

> >

> > Individuality of a causal-bodied being is not due to the idea of Ahamkara

because " What exists as a part cannot be the whole " . Thus, the idea of Ahamkara,

being one of the 35 ideas of the Causal-body, doesn't account for neither

controls the rest of the 34 ideas. Each idea is independent of another, without

requiring another idea to act upon it - otherwise your buddhi would always

interfere with the functioning of Mind or Ahamkara or the 5 functions of

life-forces and so on.

> >

> > Essentially, the 35 ideas of causal body are the basic causal forces and

are not related as cause-effect to each other. Thus, each is independent of the

application of the sense of I-ness derived from Ahamkara. Manas and Buddhi being

two of the Causal-ideas, their functioning as well as existence is not

" controlled " nor " derived " in any way by the idea of Ahamkara. It is very clear

when we see those with sharpest Buddhi or Sharpest Mind still carrying Heaviest

Ahamkara, because they didn't work upon that particular idea.

> >

> >

> > > But ego/ahamkaara/I-ness is the very basis of the entire

> > > individualized consciousness.

> >

> > 3. Well, as most Physical-bodied beings cannot see through the Astral/causal

cosmoses, it doesn't apply in the same way to the finer Astral and Causal-bodied

beings who can always pierce the veil of Maya and see the human activities.

Thus, what is " the very basis " of the entire individualized consciousness for a

physical-bodied (unenlightened) being is not the same as for an astral/causal

bodied being.

> > An Astral-bodied being thinks of Manas/sense-consciousness as the very

basis of the entire individualized consciousness.

> > A Causal-bodied being thinks of Chitta/perceptive-consciousness as the

very basis of the entire individualized consciousness.

> > However, that individuality is of the Soul not derived from any idea,

which is why it is not lost when the Astral being loses astral consciousness and

reincarnates in the Physical body.

> >

> > As an example, Devatas, with their finer bodies, are able to work through

all the beings in all their physical-bodies simultaneously (like Ganesh resides

in the Mooladhara, Agni digests the food, and so on..), never getting controlled

by Ahamkara that would require them to say that this particular body is " my

body " or that one is mine - unless they incarnate in Physical bodies themselves.

Devatas are, however, Astral/Causal-bodied beings, so they would attempt to

influence the Manas (Spirit-Possession) of the sense-bound worshipper. Pretas on

the other hand, would attempt to possess ones' physical body as well as act out

their Ahamkara.

> >

> >

> > > Out of the four antahkaranas, chitta (remembering or conditioned

> > > mind) and ahamkaara (ego or I-ness) are parts of the kaarana

> > > sareera (causal body) and remain till the end.

> >

> > 4. As per the resurrected Soul of Sri Yukteswar in Autobiography of a Yogi -

> >

> > Causal body is a matrix of 35 ideas, that include 19 ideas comprising

Astral body (Chitta, Manas, Buddhi, Ahamkara, 5 functions of knowledge, 5

functions of Action, 5 functions of life-force) and 16 ideas comprising Physical

body (16 chemical elements).

> >

> > Now, as we all know that Physical body expires as a whole, not just one or

two of the 16 elements comprising it go away at a time, Astral and Causal bodies

are also cast off as a whole in the corresponding cosmic consciousness - instead

of different constituent ideas slipping out of it at different times. Chitta

being the staging idea for all other modifications, can be termed as the last to

go, when the causal body is finally dropped - hence I wrote as rising above

Chitta.

> >

> > Thus, the idea of Ahamkara is bound with Gross Physical vibrations,

> > Manas with Subtle Astral vibrations and

> > Chitta with infinitely Subtle Causal Vibrations.

> >

> > Buddhi being another variable, can be developed or undeveloped

irrespective of the other 34. Even illiterate Moodha, through surrender to their

Guru, attain freedom from Ahamkara and so on...

> >

> > BTW, Chitta is not the Conditioned Mind. Chitta does store the residual

impressions of all the past incarnations. However, being constituted of Satwa

Guna, it doesn't have any inherent ability to act upon (Rajas) those

impressions, just like a container containing an inflammable liquid doesn't

automatically burn it down. Sadhana is required for That.

> > The Samskaras stored by Chitta, including those of Nidra, Smriti, Vikalpa,

Viparyaya, Pramana, correspond to the Tamo Guna, while the Chitta itself is

Satva Guna - hence the " Satvic - Tamas " represents the SuperEther tattwa (refer

my previous mail). The all-perceiving Satvic Chitta doesn't get conditioned by

the Tamo-guni Samskaras it stores.

> > Once the Chitta calms down, cleared of all residual impressions, only

Satva Guna remains, the intuition becomes coherent and the Soul reflects on

itself as distinct from Satva Guna of Prakriti (Chitta), thus realizing its own

nature as Brahman.

> >

> > 5.

> > In Patanjali Yoga Sutras:

> > drigadarshanaktyorekatmataivasmita -6

> > Egoism is the identification of the seer with the instrument of seeing.

Patanjali has used Asmita instead of Ahamkara.

> > Since astral-bodied beings can use any of the senses like eyes to see,

hear, smell, taste and so on (refer Autobiography of a Yogi)... the sense of

egoism does not take roots in the astral-body and hence doesn't create Astral

Karma. Similarly, Causal bodied beings can use thought to sense everything.

> >

> > Hence, Egotism has to be rooted out while the consciousness is associated

with the Physical Body sensory activities or has Physical Karma.

> >

> > 6. The idea of Manas, as the controller of sense-consciousness, must be

overcome in Astral body, through Vairagya. Read autobiography of a Yogi (chapter

43) where Sri Yukteswar illustrates that only those beings who cannot be tempted

to go back to the pleasing to the eye Astral cosmos are permitted to stay

permanently in the Causal cosmos. Pleasing to the eye implies

Sense-consciousness which is associated with Manas.

> >

> > In Patanjali Yoga Sutras also it is mentioned in the same manner :

> >

> > dristanushravika vishaya vitrishnasya vashikara samjnavairagyam -15-

> >

> > That effect which comes to these who have given up their thirst after

objects, either seen or heard, and which wills to control the objects, is

non-attachment. Vivekananda has commented that Vairagya is the only way to

freedom.

> >

> > This is to be accomplished by transferring the consciousness to

Astral-Body and working out the Astral Karma or otherwise as an astral-bodied

being.

> >

> > 7. Patanjali Yoga Sutras:

> > yogashchittavrittinirodhah -2-

> > Thus, extinguishing all the movements of Chitta is called " Yoga " .

> >

> > This is to be accomplished by transferring the consciousness to

Causal-Body and working out the Causal Karma or otherwise as a causal-bodied

being.

> >

> > I hope this clarifies.

> >

> > Regards,

> > Nitish

> >

> > , Narasimha PVR Rao <pvr@> wrote:

> > >

> > > Namaste Nitish,

> > >

> > > I am afraid you are mixing up terminologies. For example, ego or ahamkaara

(sense of I-ness) is not limited to the physical body, but extends to subtle

body and causal body as well. In fact, ego resides in the causal body and

affects other bodies. Out of the four antahkaranas, chitta (remembering or

conditioned mind) and ahamkaara (ego or I-ness) are parts of the kaarana sareera

(causal body) and remain till the end.

> > >

> > > Ahamkaara/ego controls manas and buddhi also. When manas (sensory-motor

mind) observes sensory inputs or buddhi (intellectual or thinking mind) analyzes

current and past observations of mind or chitta (remembering or conditioned

mind) stores various observations or retrieves previously stored observations,

they are all guided by the sense of I-ness. That sense of I-ness permeates

through all layers of one's individualized consciousness.

> > >

> > > Upanishads and various scriptures have broken down the individualized

consciousness into various groups by functionality, like five koshas, three

sareeras, five praanas, five jnaanendriyas, five karmendriyas, four

antahkaranas, six/seven chakras etc. But ego/ahamkaara/I-ness is the very basis

of the entire individualized consciousness.

> > >

> > > Though the word jnaana means different things to different people, a

jnaana yogi pursues Self by the path of contemplation and discrimination. When a

jnaana yogi reaches the final target, all bodies and koshas are merged in

cosmos.

> > >

> > > Best regards,

> > > Narasimha

> > >

> > > Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAstrologer.org/homam

> > > Do Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAstrologer.org/tarpana

> > > Spirituality:

> > > Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro.home.comcast.net

> > > Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAstrologer.org

> > > Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagannath.org

> > >

> > >

> > > ---- yeeahoo_99 <nitish.arya@> wrote:

> > > > || OM TAT SAT ||

> > > > Dear Narasimha,

> > > > In my opinion, there are three distinct phases that lead the sould to

rise above Ego, Mind and Chitta - corresponding to the three bodies physical

(Sthoola), astral (Sookshma) and causal (Karana) resp.

> > > >

> > > > Rising above Ego is Jnana - Merging Physical body in Physical cosmos

> > > > Rising above Mind is Vairagya - Merging Astral body in Astral cosmos

> > > > Rising above Chitta is Yoga - Merging Causal body in Causal cosmos

> > > >

> > > > Finally, becoming established in Para-Brahman is YogaArudha.

> > > >

> > > > Your comments.

> > > > Regards,

> > > > Nitish

> > > >

> > > > , " Narasimha P.V.R. Rao " <pvr@>

wrote:

> > > > >

> > > > > Namaste,

> > > > >

> > > > > Gyaani or jnaani is a wise and learned person, who may or may not

debate (or even engage) with others. One may become a gyaani using either gyaana

yoga or bhakti yoga or karma yoga or raaja yoga.

> > > > >

> > > > > Gyaana/jnaana yoga is a path of pursuing the Supreme through

intellectual analysis. One pursuing that path may or may not debate with others

and may or may not read many scriptures, but one will analyze and debate within

oneself. One starts with the basic axioms (e.g. Self is imperishable and without

a beginning or an end). One will go on eliminating things that one is aware of

as not being Self. For example, body has a beginning and end and is perishable.

So it is not Self. One introspects like this and, though the process of

elimination, finally finds the true Self. That is gyaana yoga. Pure gyaana yoga

is very difficult to follow in this age.

> > > > >

> > > > > Vichaara (contemplation) is the process of sadhana for an adherer of

pure gyaana yoga.

> > > > >

> > > > > However, the gyaana (knowledge of Self) achieved by such a person at

the end is not really different from the knowledge of Self achieved by a person

following another path.

> > > > >

> > > > > Best regards,

> > > > > Narasimha

>

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Namaste

 

Proof by ContradictionA person who lives as a farmer, should, after death, remain a farmer in the astral cosmos, and after subsequent astral death, should be reborn as the same farmer with the same name and same identity as in his previous earthly incarnation.

 

Wrong example.

 

A person after his death, depending on his tendencies in this life and level of spiritual evolution will retain some aspects of his personality, which means a person who loves music intensely will also in his next birth have an affinity for music. The conditions of the birth and inbetween period depends both on his inherent samaskaras as well the karmic repurcussion. It not, never, entirely once choice. It a mix and match between what one wants and what one deserves. IN all cases, to be able to retain the samskara Ahamakara is needed. Therefore, Ahamkara exists even in beyond the death for a normal human being. Therewfore, Ahamkara is present in the astral/casual plane as well.

Corollary #1:A Devata as an Astral-being has I-ness due to his Manas, and doesn't have Ahamkara for the work done by him in all the various physical bodies.

 

This example becomse invalid since the analysis of the first example itself in incorrect.

 

-Regards

Rajarshi

 

The upsurge (of consciousness) is Bhairava - Shiva Sutra--- On Sun, 4/10/09, yeeahoo_99 <nitish.arya wrote:

yeeahoo_99 <nitish.arya Re: Gyan Marga Date: Sunday, 4 October, 2009, 9:40 AM

|| OM TAT SAT ||Dear Narasimha and Sundeep,Thanks for your feedback. I thought, I had written a quite clear and explicit mail, but your reply has proved that it needs to be put down in at least 10-fold simpler words.You read my mail, but picked up notions in an incorrect, incoherent manner, and are reading beyond what is written in my mail.To prove my point, I would ask Sundeep to read my previous mail on "Gyan Marg" followed by your reply and see if he also picks up the notions in the same manner as you did ?The only addition required is an example:Your hypothesisAhamkara is the only I-ness there is for all the beings in all the 3 cosmoses i.e. all the Physical, Astral and Causal-bodied beings.Proof by ContradictionA person who lives as a farmer, should, after death, remain a farmer in the astral cosmos, and after subsequent astral death, should be reborn as the same farmer with the same

name and same identity as in his previous earthly incarnation.This is not the case, people don't even remember what they were in previous birth, and start their life afresh in a new earthly body=> Contradiction => the original hypothesis is wrong => Ahamkara is not the only sense of I-ness applicable to all beings in all the 3 cosmoses.Inference #1:=> Ahamkara is dominant sense of I-ness in Physical Cosmos.=> Manas is dominant sense of I-ness in Astral Cosmos.=> Chitta is dominant sense of I-ness in Causal Cosmos.Corollary #1:A Devata as an Astral-being has I-ness due to his Manas, and doesn't have Ahamkara for the work done by him in all the various physical bodies.Inference #1 and Corollary #1 is what I had written in my previous mail on this topic.There are many other ways to prove the contradiction on this hypothesis (e.g. Powers of beings in physical cosmos < those

in astral cosmos < those in causal cosmos).Your made two additional points that are also invalid. My comments on that is:1. I-ness derived from Ahamkara,Manas and Chitta has no innate power to Control any other idea of the 35 Causal-ideas.Reason:Soul is the only Truth and controller, everything else has an unreal and derived existence. Thus, all the 35 ideas co-ordinate with each other, and not control each other. 2. A new-born child or a person in Hypnotic-Trance, is able to use his sense-consciousness coherently due to the astral-bodys' sense of I-ness derived from Manas, that coordinates the senses.He has no Buddhi or discriminating faculty to interact with manas (sensory-motor mind) and tell it what to do - as you have proposed. Thus, Manas co-ordinates the senses due to its own sense of I-ness, not due to Buddhi.I hope this clarifies.Regards,Nitish, Narasimha PVR Rao <pvr wrote:>> Namaste,> > Out of the 19 or 35 attributes of individualized consciousness, which one gives the idea "I am this" or "I am that"? Of course, it is ahamkaraka or I-ness or egosense or ego principle!> > Is one's idea of "I am this" limited to a physical body? Of course not! If someone says "so and so person is a terrible person", one may feel offended or if someone says "so and so person is a great person", one may feel elated. One's ahamkara or I-ness is identifying with the criticism or praise, even though nothing is being done to the physical body and only a name is being used. When somebody calls one by name from distance (as opposed to patting on the physical body and calling),

one's consciousness may still think "I am being called" and one may turn towards the caller. As in these examples, one's I-ness does of course bind itself to more than a body.> > Suppose one gets a dream while sleeping. One may have forgotten totally about the physical body in the dream! One may think of something else as "I". In dreams, one may see oneself as a different body or may not even "see" onself, but still one may have the sense that so and so thing is happening to "me". So, even when the mind is drawn away from the physical body, there is still a notion of "I am this" (I-ness) in a dream. That is ahamkara or I-ness or ego principle.> > Your idea that ahamkara is limited to physical body is absolutely unacceptable. Ahamkara or I-ness extends beyond the physical body.> > Also, your idea that deities like Agni do not have ahamkara (I-ness) because they do not have physical bodies is incorrect. Of course,

Agni does have an I-ness and thinks "I am Agni and this is what I do". If he did not have that I-ness, he would not do everything he does.> > Moreover, the 19 or 35 ideas of individualized consciousness do interact with each other, whether we use the word "control" for some of those interactions or not. For example, buddhi (intellectual/ discriminating mind) judges various past experiences, interacts with manas (sensory-motor mind) and tells it what to do. Then manas interacts with karmendriyas (organs of action) and makes them do various things. My buddhi determined what to write and my manas told my hands to type this and I ended up typing.> > Your point about "what exists as a part cannot be the whole" is totally out of place. The sense of I-ness, the memories and conditioning, the logical mind, the sensory-motor mind, karmendriyas etc are all different parts of individualized consciousness and they play different roles

while interacting with each other in different ways. Some of those interactions may be deemed to be controls.> > > Am not mixing up the terminologies, though my mail didn't> > go in details. Your understanding is flawed.> > > > 2. Where did you read this up ?> > One does not "read up" these things in a single place. There are different abstractions and breakdowns of what happens in individualized consciousness. There are several sources that speak of different aspects of this knowledge in slightly different terms. One will assimilate this knowledge better if one reads as many sources as possible and contemplates.> > Best regards,> Narasimha> ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -> Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ homam> Do

Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ tarpana> Spirituality: http://groups. / group/vedic- wisdom> Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro. home.comcast. net> Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAst rologer.org> Jyotish writings: http://groups. / group/JyotishWri tings> Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagan nath.org> ------------ --------- --------- --------- ---------

--------- -> > ---- yeeahoo_99 <nitish.arya@ ...> wrote: > > || OM TAT SAT ||> > Dear Narasimha,> > Please Ignore my previous-mail, it was not completed - i will try to delete it.> > > > Am not mixing up the terminologies, though my mail didn't go in details. Your understanding is flawed.> > > > 1. All ideas including the idea of Ahamkara naturally belong to the ideational or causal body, but Ahamkara must be overcome only in the physical body (See point 5.). Astral or Causal-bodied beings (those without a physical/astral body) don't have to fight with the idea of Ahamkara like we do.> > > > > Ahamkaara/ego controls manas and buddhi also. When manas (sensory-> > > ...they are all guided by the sense of I-ness. That sense of I-ness > > > permeates through all layers of one's individualized consciousness.> >

> > 2. Where did you read this up ?> > > > There is a fine line between the sense of I-ness attributed to the Individual Soul and the sense of I-ness derived through the idea of Ahamkara. Even after a Soul is freed of the three bodies, the individuality of the Soul Atom is not destroyed (Resurrection implies that), while it has already given up the idea of Ahamkara including all other ideas.> > > > Individuality of a causal-bodied being is not due to the idea of Ahamkara because "What exists as a part cannot be the whole". Thus, the idea of Ahamkara, being one of the 35 ideas of the Causal-body, doesn't account for neither controls the rest of the 34 ideas. Each idea is independent of another, without requiring another idea to act upon it - otherwise your buddhi would always interfere with the functioning of Mind or Ahamkara or the 5 functions of life-forces and so on.> > > >

Essentially, the 35 ideas of causal body are the basic causal forces and are not related as cause-effect to each other. Thus, each is independent of the application of the sense of I-ness derived from Ahamkara. Manas and Buddhi being two of the Causal-ideas, their functioning as well as existence is not "controlled" nor "derived" in any way by the idea of Ahamkara. It is very clear when we see those with sharpest Buddhi or Sharpest Mind still carrying Heaviest Ahamkara, because they didn't work upon that particular idea.> > > > > > > But ego/ahamkaara/ I-ness is the very basis of the entire > > > individualized consciousness.> > > > 3. Well, as most Physical-bodied beings cannot see through the Astral/causal cosmoses, it doesn't apply in the same way to the finer Astral and Causal-bodied beings who can always pierce the veil of Maya and see the human activities. Thus, what is "the very

basis" of the entire individualized consciousness for a physical-bodied (unenlightened) being is not the same as for an astral/causal bodied being.> > An Astral-bodied being thinks of Manas/sense- consciousness as the very basis of the entire individualized consciousness.> > A Causal-bodied being thinks of Chitta/perceptive- consciousness as the very basis of the entire individualized consciousness.> > However, that individuality is of the Soul not derived from any idea, which is why it is not lost when the Astral being loses astral consciousness and reincarnates in the Physical body.> > > > As an example, Devatas, with their finer bodies, are able to work through all the beings in all their physical-bodies simultaneously (like Ganesh resides in the Mooladhara, Agni digests the food, and so on..), never getting controlled by Ahamkara that would require them to say that this particular body is "my body"

or that one is mine - unless they incarnate in Physical bodies themselves. Devatas are, however, Astral/Causal- bodied beings, so they would attempt to influence the Manas (Spirit-Possession) of the sense-bound worshipper. Pretas on the other hand, would attempt to possess ones' physical body as well as act out their Ahamkara.> > > > > > > Out of the four antahkaranas, chitta (remembering or conditioned > > > mind) and ahamkaara (ego or I-ness) are parts of the kaarana > > > sareera (causal body) and remain till the end.> > > > 4. As per the resurrected Soul of Sri Yukteswar in Autobiography of a Yogi -> > > > Causal body is a matrix of 35 ideas, that include 19 ideas comprising Astral body (Chitta, Manas, Buddhi, Ahamkara, 5 functions of knowledge, 5 functions of Action, 5 functions of life-force) and 16 ideas comprising Physical body (16 chemical

elements).> > > > Now, as we all know that Physical body expires as a whole, not just one or two of the 16 elements comprising it go away at a time, Astral and Causal bodies are also cast off as a whole in the corresponding cosmic consciousness - instead of different constituent ideas slipping out of it at different times. Chitta being the staging idea for all other modifications, can be termed as the last to go, when the causal body is finally dropped - hence I wrote as rising above Chitta.> > > > Thus, the idea of Ahamkara is bound with Gross Physical vibrations, > > Manas with Subtle Astral vibrations and > > Chitta with infinitely Subtle Causal Vibrations.> > > > Buddhi being another variable, can be developed or undeveloped irrespective of the other 34. Even illiterate Moodha, through surrender to their Guru, attain freedom from Ahamkara and so on...> >

> > BTW, Chitta is not the Conditioned Mind. Chitta does store the residual impressions of all the past incarnations. However, being constituted of Satwa Guna, it doesn't have any inherent ability to act upon (Rajas) those impressions, just like a container containing an inflammable liquid doesn't automatically burn it down. Sadhana is required for That.> > The Samskaras stored by Chitta, including those of Nidra, Smriti, Vikalpa, Viparyaya, Pramana, correspond to the Tamo Guna, while the Chitta itself is Satva Guna - hence the "Satvic - Tamas" represents the SuperEther tattwa (refer my previous mail). The all-perceiving Satvic Chitta doesn't get conditioned by the Tamo-guni Samskaras it stores.> > Once the Chitta calms down, cleared of all residual impressions, only Satva Guna remains, the intuition becomes coherent and the Soul reflects on itself as distinct from Satva Guna of Prakriti (Chitta), thus realizing its own

nature as Brahman.> > > > 5. > > In Patanjali Yoga Sutras: > > drigadarshanaktyore katmataivasmita -6> > Egoism is the identification of the seer with the instrument of seeing. Patanjali has used Asmita instead of Ahamkara.> > Since astral-bodied beings can use any of the senses like eyes to see, hear, smell, taste and so on (refer Autobiography of a Yogi)... the sense of egoism does not take roots in the astral-body and hence doesn't create Astral Karma. Similarly, Causal bodied beings can use thought to sense everything.> > > > Hence, Egotism has to be rooted out while the consciousness is associated with the Physical Body sensory activities or has Physical Karma.> > > > 6. The idea of Manas, as the controller of sense-consciousness , must be overcome in Astral body, through Vairagya. Read autobiography of a Yogi (chapter 43) where Sri Yukteswar

illustrates that only those beings who cannot be tempted to go back to the pleasing to the eye Astral cosmos are permitted to stay permanently in the Causal cosmos. Pleasing to the eye implies Sense-consciousness which is associated with Manas.> > > > In Patanjali Yoga Sutras also it is mentioned in the same manner :> > > > dristanushravika vishaya vitrishnasya vashikara samjnavairagyam -15-> > > > That effect which comes to these who have given up their thirst after objects, either seen or heard, and which wills to control the objects, is non-attachment. Vivekananda has commented that Vairagya is the only way to freedom.> > > > This is to be accomplished by transferring the consciousness to Astral-Body and working out the Astral Karma or otherwise as an astral-bodied being.> > > > 7. Patanjali Yoga Sutras:> > yogashchittavrittin irodhah

-2-> > Thus, extinguishing all the movements of Chitta is called "Yoga". > > > > This is to be accomplished by transferring the consciousness to Causal-Body and working out the Causal Karma or otherwise as a causal-bodied being.> > > > I hope this clarifies.> > > > Regards,> > Nitish> > > > , Narasimha PVR Rao <pvr@> wrote:> > >> > > Namaste Nitish,> > > > > > I am afraid you are mixing up terminologies. For example, ego or ahamkaara (sense of I-ness) is not limited to the physical body, but extends to subtle body and causal body as well. In fact, ego resides in the causal body and affects other

bodies. Out of the four antahkaranas, chitta (remembering or conditioned mind) and ahamkaara (ego or I-ness) are parts of the kaarana sareera (causal body) and remain till the end.> > > > > > Ahamkaara/ego controls manas and buddhi also. When manas (sensory-motor mind) observes sensory inputs or buddhi (intellectual or thinking mind) analyzes current and past observations of mind or chitta (remembering or conditioned mind) stores various observations or retrieves previously stored observations, they are all guided by the sense of I-ness. That sense of I-ness permeates through all layers of one's individualized consciousness.> > > > > > Upanishads and various scriptures have broken down the individualized consciousness into various groups by functionality, like five koshas, three sareeras, five praanas, five jnaanendriyas, five karmendriyas, four antahkaranas, six/seven chakras etc. But ego/ahamkaara/

I-ness is the very basis of the entire individualized consciousness.> > > > > > Though the word jnaana means different things to different people, a jnaana yogi pursues Self by the path of contemplation and discrimination. When a jnaana yogi reaches the final target, all bodies and koshas are merged in cosmos.> > > > > > Best regards,> > > Narasimha> > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -> > > Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ homam> > > Do Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ tarpana> > > Spirituality: http://groups. /

group/vedic- wisdom> > > Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro. home.comcast. net> > > Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAst rologer.org> > > Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagan nath.org> > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -> > > > > > ---- yeeahoo_99 <nitish.arya@ > wrote: > > > > || OM TAT SAT ||> > > > Dear Narasimha,> > > > In my opinion, there are three distinct phases that lead the sould to rise above Ego, Mind and Chitta - corresponding to the three bodies physical (Sthoola), astral (Sookshma) and causal (Karana)

resp.> > > > > > > > Rising above Ego is Jnana - Merging Physical body in Physical cosmos> > > > Rising above Mind is Vairagya - Merging Astral body in Astral cosmos> > > > Rising above Chitta is Yoga - Merging Causal body in Causal cosmos> > > > > > > > Finally, becoming established in Para-Brahman is YogaArudha.> > > > > > > > Your comments.> > > > Regards,> > > > Nitish> > > > > > > > , "Narasimha P.V.R. Rao" <pvr@> wrote:> > > > >> > > > > Namaste,> > > > > > > > > > Gyaani or jnaani

is a wise and learned person, who may or may not debate (or even engage) with others. One may become a gyaani using either gyaana yoga or bhakti yoga or karma yoga or raaja yoga.> > > > > > > > > > Gyaana/jnaana yoga is a path of pursuing the Supreme through intellectual analysis. One pursuing that path may or may not debate with others and may or may not read many scriptures, but one will analyze and debate within oneself. One starts with the basic axioms (e.g. Self is imperishable and without a beginning or an end). One will go on eliminating things that one is aware of as not being Self. For example, body has a beginning and end and is perishable. So it is not Self. One introspects like this and, though the process of elimination, finally finds the true Self. That is gyaana yoga. Pure gyaana yoga is very difficult to follow in this age.> > > > > > > > > > Vichaara

(contemplation) is the process of sadhana for an adherer of pure gyaana yoga.> > > > > > > > > > However, the gyaana (knowledge of Self) achieved by such a person at the end is not really different from the knowledge of Self achieved by a person following another path.> > > > > > > > > > Best regards,> > > > > Narasimha>

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|| OM TAT SAT ||

Namaskar Rajarshi,

 

Thanks for your contribution - all you have done is to prove what is already

known.

 

> Therefore, Ahamkara exists even in beyond the death for a normal

> human being. Therewfore, Ahamkara is present in the astral/casual

> plane as well.

 

1. Do you realize what is being talked about and what you have ended up proving

? Wherein did I deny that Ahamkara is not present in Astral/Causal bodies ?

 

Ahamkara is an idea in Causal-body, so it is present all the time till the

soul is freed of the three body containers.

 

2. OTOH, What I have stated, with reference to Patanjali Sutras, is that

Ahamkara is " SUPPRESSED " in Astral and Causal bodies. Meaning

 

" Ahamkara isn't the dominant cause of I-ness in Astral/Causal bodies "

 

And as a result wouldn't contribute to the acquisition of Astral/Causal Karma.

 

Why is Ahamkara not dominant in Astral/Causal bodies ?

The reason I have already given in the first mail in sufficient detail.

 

IF THE AHAMKARA IS NOT SUPPRESSED AFTER PHYSICAL DEATH, THE PERSON WILL KEEP

CARRYING THE SAME EARTHLY IDENTITY TO THE ASTRAL PLANES, AND BRING IT BACK AT

REBIRTH TO THE EARTH. AND THEN, HE WILL RECLAIM HIS LOST TERRITORY AND WEALTH -

THE CONFLICTS THAT WILL ARISE WILL BE BEYOND ANYBODY'S CONTROL.

THUS, THE BEAUTIFUL ASTRAL SPHERE ARE SENSED BY THE I-NESS OF MANAS, while

CAUSAL SPHERE ARE SENSED BY THE I-NESS OF CHITTA.

 

Please read more of " Sri Sri Paramahansa Yogananda " , he has mentioned about

all these things (what happens to a soul at death and so on) in such a

simplistic manner in his Gita commentaries, that even a layman can understand

it.

 

Regards,

Nitish

 

, rajarshi nandy <rajarshi14 wrote:

>

> Namaste

>  

> Proof by Contradiction

> A person who lives as a farmer, should, after death, remain a farmer in the

astral cosmos, and after subsequent astral death, should be reborn as the same

farmer with the same name and same identity as in his previous earthly

incarnation.

>  

> Wrong example.

>  

> A person after his death, depending on his tendencies in this life and level

of spiritual evolution will retain some aspects of his personality, which means

a person who loves music intensely will also in his next birth have an affinity

for music. The conditions of the birth and inbetween period depends both on his

inherent samaskaras as well the karmic repurcussion. It not, never, entirely

once choice. It a mix and match between what one wants and what one deserves. IN

all cases, to be able to retain the samskara Ahamakara is needed. Therefore,

Ahamkara exists even in beyond the death for a normal human being. Therewfore,

Ahamkara is present in the astral/casual plane as well.

>

>

> Corollary #1:

> A Devata as an Astral-being has I-ness due to his Manas, and doesn't have

Ahamkara for the work done by him in all the various physical bodies.

>

>  

> This example becomse invalid since the analysis of the first example itself in

incorrect.

>  

> -Regards

>  Rajarshi

>

>

>

> The upsurge (of consciousness) is Bhairava - Shiva Sutra

>

> --- On Sun, 4/10/09, yeeahoo_99 <nitish.arya wrote:

>

>

> yeeahoo_99 <nitish.arya

> Re: Gyan Marga

>

> Sunday, 4 October, 2009, 9:40 AM

>

>

>  

>

>

>

> || OM TAT SAT ||

> Dear Narasimha and Sundeep,

>

> Thanks for your feedback. I thought, I had written a quite clear and explicit

mail, but your reply has proved that it needs to be put down in at least 10-fold

simpler words.

>

> You read my mail, but picked up notions in an incorrect, incoherent manner,

and are reading beyond what is written in my mail.

>

> To prove my point, I would ask Sundeep to read my previous mail on " Gyan Marg "

followed by your reply and see if he also picks up the notions in the same

manner as you did ?

>

> The only addition required is an example:

>

> Your hypothesis

> Ahamkara is the only I-ness there is for all the beings in all the 3 cosmoses

i.e. all the Physical, Astral and Causal-bodied beings.

>

> Proof by Contradiction

> A person who lives as a farmer, should, after death, remain a farmer in the

astral cosmos, and after subsequent astral death, should be reborn as the same

farmer with the same name and same identity as in his previous earthly

incarnation.

> This is not the case, people don't even remember what they were in previous

birth, and start their life afresh in a new earthly body

> => Contradiction

> => the original hypothesis is wrong

> => Ahamkara is not the only sense of I-ness applicable to all beings in all

the 3 cosmoses.

>

> Inference #1:

> => Ahamkara is dominant sense of I-ness in Physical Cosmos.

> => Manas is dominant sense of I-ness in Astral Cosmos.

> => Chitta is dominant sense of I-ness in Causal Cosmos.

>

> Corollary #1:

> A Devata as an Astral-being has I-ness due to his Manas, and doesn't have

Ahamkara for the work done by him in all the various physical bodies.

>

> Inference #1 and Corollary #1 is what I had written in my previous mail on

this topic.

>

> There are many other ways to prove the contradiction on this hypothesis (e.g.

Powers of beings in physical cosmos < those in astral cosmos < those in causal

cosmos).

>

> Your made two additional points that are also invalid. My comments on that is:

>

> 1. I-ness derived from Ahamkara,Manas and Chitta has no innate power to

Control any other idea of the 35 Causal-ideas.

> Reason:

> Soul is the only Truth and controller, everything else has an unreal and

derived existence. Thus, all the 35 ideas co-ordinate with each other, and not

control each other.

>

> 2. A new-born child or a person in Hypnotic-Trance, is able to use his

sense-consciousness coherently due to the astral-bodys' sense of I-ness derived

from Manas, that coordinates the senses.

> He has no Buddhi or discriminating faculty to interact with manas

(sensory-motor mind) and tell it what to do - as you have proposed. Thus, Manas

co-ordinates the senses due to its own sense of I-ness, not due to Buddhi.

>

> I hope this clarifies.

>

> Regards,

> Nitish

>

> , Narasimha PVR Rao <pvr@> wrote:

> >

> > Namaste,

> >

> > Out of the 19 or 35 attributes of individualized consciousness, which one

gives the idea " I am this " or " I am that " ? Of course, it is ahamkaraka or I-ness

or egosense or ego principle!

> >

> > Is one's idea of " I am this " limited to a physical body? Of course not! If

someone says " so and so person is a terrible person " , one may feel offended or

if someone says " so and so person is a great person " , one may feel elated. One's

ahamkara or I-ness is identifying with the criticism or praise, even though

nothing is being done to the physical body and only a name is being used. When

somebody calls one by name from distance (as opposed to patting on the physical

body and calling), one's consciousness may still think " I am being called " and

one may turn towards the caller. As in these examples, one's I-ness does of

course bind itself to more than a body.

> >

> > Suppose one gets a dream while sleeping. One may have forgotten totally

about the physical body in the dream! One may think of something else as " I " . In

dreams, one may see oneself as a different body or may not even " see " onself,

but still one may have the sense that so and so thing is happening to " me " . So,

even when the mind is drawn away from the physical body, there is still a notion

of " I am this " (I-ness) in a dream. That is ahamkara or I-ness or ego principle.

> >

> > Your idea that ahamkara is limited to physical body is absolutely

unacceptable. Ahamkara or I-ness extends beyond the physical body.

> >

> > Also, your idea that deities like Agni do not have ahamkara (I-ness) because

they do not have physical bodies is incorrect. Of course, Agni does have an

I-ness and thinks " I am Agni and this is what I do " . If he did not have that

I-ness, he would not do everything he does.

> >

> > Moreover, the 19 or 35 ideas of individualized consciousness do interact

with each other, whether we use the word " control " for some of those

interactions or not. For example, buddhi (intellectual/ discriminating mind)

judges various past experiences, interacts with manas (sensory-motor mind) and

tells it what to do. Then manas interacts with karmendriyas (organs of action)

and makes them do various things. My buddhi determined what to write and my

manas told my hands to type this and I ended up typing.

> >

> > Your point about " what exists as a part cannot be the whole " is totally out

of place. The sense of I-ness, the memories and conditioning, the logical mind,

the sensory-motor mind, karmendriyas etc are all different parts of

individualized consciousness and they play different roles while interacting

with each other in different ways. Some of those interactions may be deemed to

be controls.

> >

> > > Am not mixing up the terminologies, though my mail didn't

> > > go in details. Your understanding is flawed.

> > >

> > > 2. Where did you read this up ?

> >

> > One does not " read up " these things in a single place. There are different

abstractions and breakdowns of what happens in individualized consciousness.

There are several sources that speak of different aspects of this knowledge in

slightly different terms. One will assimilate this knowledge better if one reads

as many sources as possible and contemplates.

> >

> > Best regards,

> > Narasimha

> > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -

> > Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ homam

> > Do Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ tarpana

> > Spirituality: http://groups. / group/vedic- wisdom

> > Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro. home.comcast. net

> > Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAst rologer.org

> > Jyotish writings: http://groups. / group/JyotishWri tings

> > Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagan nath.org

> > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -

> >

> > ---- yeeahoo_99 <nitish.arya@ ...> wrote:

> > > || OM TAT SAT ||

> > > Dear Narasimha,

> > > Please Ignore my previous-mail, it was not completed - i will try to

delete it.

> > >

> > > Am not mixing up the terminologies, though my mail didn't go in details.

Your understanding is flawed.

> > >

> > > 1. All ideas including the idea of Ahamkara naturally belong to the

ideational or causal body, but Ahamkara must be overcome only in the physical

body (See point 5.). Astral or Causal-bodied beings (those without a

physical/astral body) don't have to fight with the idea of Ahamkara like we do.

> > >

> > > > Ahamkaara/ego controls manas and buddhi also. When manas (sensory-

> > > > ...they are all guided by the sense of I-ness. That sense of I-ness

> > > > permeates through all layers of one's individualized consciousness.

> > >

> > > 2. Where did you read this up ?

> > >

> > > There is a fine line between the sense of I-ness attributed to the

Individual Soul and the sense of I-ness derived through the idea of Ahamkara.

Even after a Soul is freed of the three bodies, the individuality of the Soul

Atom is not destroyed (Resurrection implies that), while it has already given up

the idea of Ahamkara including all other ideas.

> > >

> > > Individuality of a causal-bodied being is not due to the idea of Ahamkara

because " What exists as a part cannot be the whole " . Thus, the idea of Ahamkara,

being one of the 35 ideas of the Causal-body, doesn't account for neither

controls the rest of the 34 ideas. Each idea is independent of another, without

requiring another idea to act upon it - otherwise your buddhi would always

interfere with the functioning of Mind or Ahamkara or the 5 functions of

life-forces and so on.

> > >

> > > Essentially, the 35 ideas of causal body are the basic causal forces and

are not related as cause-effect to each other. Thus, each is independent of the

application of the sense of I-ness derived from Ahamkara. Manas and Buddhi being

two of the Causal-ideas, their functioning as well as existence is not

" controlled " nor " derived " in any way by the idea of Ahamkara. It is very clear

when we see those with sharpest Buddhi or Sharpest Mind still carrying Heaviest

Ahamkara, because they didn't work upon that particular idea.

> > >

> > >

> > > > But ego/ahamkaara/ I-ness is the very basis of the entire

> > > > individualized consciousness.

> > >

> > > 3. Well, as most Physical-bodied beings cannot see through the

Astral/causal cosmoses, it doesn't apply in the same way to the finer Astral and

Causal-bodied beings who can always pierce the veil of Maya and see the human

activities. Thus, what is " the very basis " of the entire individualized

consciousness for a physical-bodied (unenlightened) being is not the same as for

an astral/causal bodied being.

> > > An Astral-bodied being thinks of Manas/sense- consciousness as the very

basis of the entire individualized consciousness.

> > > A Causal-bodied being thinks of Chitta/perceptive- consciousness as the

very basis of the entire individualized consciousness.

> > > However, that individuality is of the Soul not derived from any idea,

which is why it is not lost when the Astral being loses astral consciousness and

reincarnates in the Physical body.

> > >

> > > As an example, Devatas, with their finer bodies, are able to work through

all the beings in all their physical-bodies simultaneously (like Ganesh resides

in the Mooladhara, Agni digests the food, and so on..), never getting controlled

by Ahamkara that would require them to say that this particular body is " my

body " or that one is mine - unless they incarnate in Physical bodies themselves.

Devatas are, however, Astral/Causal- bodied beings, so they would attempt to

influence the Manas (Spirit-Possession) of the sense-bound worshipper. Pretas on

the other hand, would attempt to possess ones' physical body as well as act out

their Ahamkara.

> > >

> > >

> > > > Out of the four antahkaranas, chitta (remembering or conditioned

> > > > mind) and ahamkaara (ego or I-ness) are parts of the kaarana

> > > > sareera (causal body) and remain till the end.

> > >

> > > 4. As per the resurrected Soul of Sri Yukteswar in Autobiography of a Yogi

-

> > >

> > > Causal body is a matrix of 35 ideas, that include 19 ideas comprising

Astral body (Chitta, Manas, Buddhi, Ahamkara, 5 functions of knowledge, 5

functions of Action, 5 functions of life-force) and 16 ideas comprising Physical

body (16 chemical elements).

> > >

> > > Now, as we all know that Physical body expires as a whole, not just one or

two of the 16 elements comprising it go away at a time, Astral and Causal bodies

are also cast off as a whole in the corresponding cosmic consciousness - instead

of different constituent ideas slipping out of it at different times. Chitta

being the staging idea for all other modifications, can be termed as the last to

go, when the causal body is finally dropped - hence I wrote as rising above

Chitta.

> > >

> > > Thus, the idea of Ahamkara is bound with Gross Physical vibrations,

> > > Manas with Subtle Astral vibrations and

> > > Chitta with infinitely Subtle Causal Vibrations.

> > >

> > > Buddhi being another variable, can be developed or undeveloped

irrespective of the other 34. Even illiterate Moodha, through surrender to their

Guru, attain freedom from Ahamkara and so on...

> > >

> > > BTW, Chitta is not the Conditioned Mind. Chitta does store the residual

impressions of all the past incarnations. However, being constituted of Satwa

Guna, it doesn't have any inherent ability to act upon (Rajas) those

impressions, just like a container containing an inflammable liquid doesn't

automatically burn it down. Sadhana is required for That.

> > > The Samskaras stored by Chitta, including those of Nidra, Smriti, Vikalpa,

Viparyaya, Pramana, correspond to the Tamo Guna, while the Chitta itself is

Satva Guna - hence the " Satvic - Tamas " represents the SuperEther tattwa (refer

my previous mail). The all-perceiving Satvic Chitta doesn't get conditioned by

the Tamo-guni Samskaras it stores.

> > > Once the Chitta calms down, cleared of all residual impressions, only

Satva Guna remains, the intuition becomes coherent and the Soul reflects on

itself as distinct from Satva Guna of Prakriti (Chitta), thus realizing its own

nature as Brahman.

> > >

> > > 5.

> > > In Patanjali Yoga Sutras:

> > > drigadarshanaktyore katmataivasmita -6

> > > Egoism is the identification of the seer with the instrument of seeing.

Patanjali has used Asmita instead of Ahamkara.

> > > Since astral-bodied beings can use any of the senses like eyes to see,

hear, smell, taste and so on (refer Autobiography of a Yogi)... the sense of

egoism does not take roots in the astral-body and hence doesn't create Astral

Karma. Similarly, Causal bodied beings can use thought to sense everything.

> > >

> > > Hence, Egotism has to be rooted out while the consciousness is associated

with the Physical Body sensory activities or has Physical Karma.

> > >

> > > 6. The idea of Manas, as the controller of sense-consciousness , must be

overcome in Astral body, through Vairagya. Read autobiography of a Yogi (chapter

43) where Sri Yukteswar illustrates that only those beings who cannot be tempted

to go back to the pleasing to the eye Astral cosmos are permitted to stay

permanently in the Causal cosmos. Pleasing to the eye implies

Sense-consciousness which is associated with Manas.

> > >

> > > In Patanjali Yoga Sutras also it is mentioned in the same manner :

> > >

> > > dristanushravika vishaya vitrishnasya vashikara samjnavairagyam -15-

> > >

> > > That effect which comes to these who have given up their thirst after

objects, either seen or heard, and which wills to control the objects, is

non-attachment. Vivekananda has commented that Vairagya is the only way to

freedom.

> > >

> > > This is to be accomplished by transferring the consciousness to

Astral-Body and working out the Astral Karma or otherwise as an astral-bodied

being.

> > >

> > > 7. Patanjali Yoga Sutras:

> > > yogashchittavrittin irodhah -2-

> > > Thus, extinguishing all the movements of Chitta is called " Yoga " .

> > >

> > > This is to be accomplished by transferring the consciousness to

Causal-Body and working out the Causal Karma or otherwise as a causal-bodied

being.

> > >

> > > I hope this clarifies.

> > >

> > > Regards,

> > > Nitish

> > >

> > > , Narasimha PVR Rao <pvr@> wrote:

> > > >

> > > > Namaste Nitish,

> > > >

> > > > I am afraid you are mixing up terminologies. For example, ego or

ahamkaara (sense of I-ness) is not limited to the physical body, but extends to

subtle body and causal body as well. In fact, ego resides in the causal body and

affects other bodies. Out of the four antahkaranas, chitta (remembering or

conditioned mind) and ahamkaara (ego or I-ness) are parts of the kaarana sareera

(causal body) and remain till the end.

> > > >

> > > > Ahamkaara/ego controls manas and buddhi also. When manas (sensory-motor

mind) observes sensory inputs or buddhi (intellectual or thinking mind) analyzes

current and past observations of mind or chitta (remembering or conditioned

mind) stores various observations or retrieves previously stored observations,

they are all guided by the sense of I-ness. That sense of I-ness permeates

through all layers of one's individualized consciousness.

> > > >

> > > > Upanishads and various scriptures have broken down the individualized

consciousness into various groups by functionality, like five koshas, three

sareeras, five praanas, five jnaanendriyas, five karmendriyas, four

antahkaranas, six/seven chakras etc. But ego/ahamkaara/ I-ness is the very basis

of the entire individualized consciousness.

> > > >

> > > > Though the word jnaana means different things to different people, a

jnaana yogi pursues Self by the path of contemplation and discrimination. When a

jnaana yogi reaches the final target, all bodies and koshas are merged in

cosmos.

> > > >

> > > > Best regards,

> > > > Narasimha

> > > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -

> > > > Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ homam

> > > > Do Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ tarpana

> > > > Spirituality: http://groups. / group/vedic- wisdom

> > > > Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro. home.comcast. net

> > > > Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAst rologer.org

> > > > Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagan nath.org

> > > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -

> > > >

> > > > ---- yeeahoo_99 <nitish.arya@ > wrote:

> > > > > || OM TAT SAT ||

> > > > > Dear Narasimha,

> > > > > In my opinion, there are three distinct phases that lead the sould to

rise above Ego, Mind and Chitta - corresponding to the three bodies physical

(Sthoola), astral (Sookshma) and causal (Karana) resp.

> > > > >

> > > > > Rising above Ego is Jnana - Merging Physical body in Physical cosmos

> > > > > Rising above Mind is Vairagya - Merging Astral body in Astral cosmos

> > > > > Rising above Chitta is Yoga - Merging Causal body in Causal cosmos

> > > > >

> > > > > Finally, becoming established in Para-Brahman is YogaArudha.

> > > > >

> > > > > Your comments.

> > > > > Regards,

> > > > > Nitish

> > > > >

> > > > > , " Narasimha P.V.R. Rao " <pvr@>

wrote:

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Namaste,

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Gyaani or jnaani is a wise and learned person, who may or may not

debate (or even engage) with others. One may become a gyaani using either gyaana

yoga or bhakti yoga or karma yoga or raaja yoga.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Gyaana/jnaana yoga is a path of pursuing the Supreme through

intellectual analysis. One pursuing that path may or may not debate with others

and may or may not read many scriptures, but one will analyze and debate within

oneself. One starts with the basic axioms (e.g. Self is imperishable and without

a beginning or an end). One will go on eliminating things that one is aware of

as not being Self. For example, body has a beginning and end and is perishable.

So it is not Self. One introspects like this and, though the process of

elimination, finally finds the true Self. That is gyaana yoga. Pure gyaana yoga

is very difficult to follow in this age.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Vichaara (contemplation) is the process of sadhana for an adherer of

pure gyaana yoga.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > However, the gyaana (knowledge of Self) achieved by such a person at

the end is not really different from the knowledge of Self achieved by a person

following another path.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Best regards,

> > > > > > Narasimha

> >

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

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Namaste,

 

> " Ahamkara isn't the dominant cause of I-ness in Astral/Causal bodies "

 

What a strange statement!! After all,

 

aham = I

kaara = ness

ahamkaara = I-ness.

 

Thus, ahamkaara *IS* the I-ness of an individualized consciousness. You are

talking of ahamkaara being the " cause of " I-ness. But ahamkaara IS the I-ness!

 

* * *

 

Whether you talk about physical body or subtle body or causal body, I-ness in

various layers is still ahamkaara. When ahamkaara binds more to one layer, one

looks at oneself primarily from the perspective of that layer. When ahamkaara

does not bind to anything at all, one is in nirvikalpa samadhi, i.e. established

in Brahman. Ahamkaara or I-ness is a fundamental property of an individualized

consciousness and remains as long as there is some individualization.

 

* * *

 

> THUS, THE BEAUTIFUL ASTRAL SPHERE ARE SENSED BY THE I-NESS OF MANAS,

> while CAUSAL SPHERE ARE SENSED BY THE I-NESS OF CHITTA.

 

So you are accepting that there as " I-ness of manas " and " I-ness of chitta " .

I-ness=aham-kaara. If we replace I-ness in these terms, we get " ahamkaara of

manas " and " ahamkaara of chitta " . When scriptures defined the 19 proerties of

individualized consciousness, they only defined one ahamkaara apart from manas,

chitta etc and did not define " ahamkaara of manas " and " ahamkaara of chitta "

etc.

 

For what I termed as ahamkaara (I-ness) working through manas and ahamkaara

(I-ness) working through chitta, you are coining new terms like " I-ness of

manas " and " I-ness of chitta " because you have this strange notion that

ahamkaara is tied to physical body.

 

* * *

 

> IF THE AHAMKARA IS NOT SUPPRESSED AFTER PHYSICAL DEATH, THE PERSON WILL

> KEEP CARRYING THE SAME EARTHLY IDENTITY TO THE ASTRAL PLANES, AND BRING IT

> BACK AT REBIRTH TO THE EARTH. AND THEN, HE WILL RECLAIM HIS LOST TERRITORY

> AND WEALTH - THE CONFLICTS THAT WILL ARISE WILL BE BEYOND ANYBODY'S CONTROL.

> THUS, THE BEAUTIFUL ASTRAL SPHERE ARE SENSED BY THE I-NESS OF MANAS,

> while CAUSAL SPHERE ARE SENSED BY THE I-NESS OF CHITTA.

 

Of course, ahamkaara (I-ness) associating mainly with a physical body is bad. We

have no disagreement there.

 

The astral sphere may be beautiful to some. But, to a true jnaani, it is a

source of problems too, though the problems are lighter than the problems of the

physical domain.

 

Celestials without physical bodies and having only ethereal bodies have desires

too and they are bonded too.

 

* * *

 

I still think this is a case of a Pascal language programmer unfamiliar with C

language misunderstanding some software written in C language and passing

comments. But unfortunately that programmer seems to be hasty in using labels

like " flawed " , " incorrect " , " incoherent " etc about other programmers whose

language he is unable to understand.

 

Best regards,

Narasimha

 

Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAstrologer.org/homam

Do Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAstrologer.org/tarpana

Spirituality:

Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro.home.comcast.net

Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAstrologer.org

Jyotish writings: JyotishWritings

Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagannath.org

 

 

, " yeeahoo_99 " <nitish.arya wrote:

>

> || OM TAT SAT ||

> Namaskar Rajarshi,

>

> Thanks for your contribution - all you have done is to prove what is

already known.

>

> > Therefore, Ahamkara exists even in beyond the death for a normal

> > human being. Therewfore, Ahamkara is present in the astral/casual

> > plane as well.

>

> 1. Do you realize what is being talked about and what you have ended up

proving ? Wherein did I deny that Ahamkara is not present in Astral/Causal

bodies ?

>

> Ahamkara is an idea in Causal-body, so it is present all the time till the

soul is freed of the three body containers.

>

> 2. OTOH, What I have stated, with reference to Patanjali Sutras, is that

Ahamkara is " SUPPRESSED " in Astral and Causal bodies. Meaning

>

> " Ahamkara isn't the dominant cause of I-ness in Astral/Causal bodies "

>

> And as a result wouldn't contribute to the acquisition of Astral/Causal

Karma.

>

> Why is Ahamkara not dominant in Astral/Causal bodies ?

> The reason I have already given in the first mail in sufficient detail.

>

> IF THE AHAMKARA IS NOT SUPPRESSED AFTER PHYSICAL DEATH, THE PERSON WILL

KEEP CARRYING THE SAME EARTHLY IDENTITY TO THE ASTRAL PLANES, AND BRING IT BACK

AT REBIRTH TO THE EARTH. AND THEN, HE WILL RECLAIM HIS LOST TERRITORY AND WEALTH

- THE CONFLICTS THAT WILL ARISE WILL BE BEYOND ANYBODY'S CONTROL.

> THUS, THE BEAUTIFUL ASTRAL SPHERE ARE SENSED BY THE I-NESS OF MANAS, while

CAUSAL SPHERE ARE SENSED BY THE I-NESS OF CHITTA.

>

> Please read more of " Sri Sri Paramahansa Yogananda " , he has mentioned about

all these things (what happens to a soul at death and so on) in such a

simplistic manner in his Gita commentaries, that even a layman can understand

it.

>

> Regards,

> Nitish

>

> , rajarshi nandy <rajarshi14@> wrote:

> >

> > Namaste

> >

> > Proof by Contradiction

> > A person who lives as a farmer, should, after death, remain a farmer in the

astral cosmos, and after subsequent astral death, should be reborn as the same

farmer with the same name and same identity as in his previous earthly

incarnation.

> >

> > Wrong example.

> >

> > A person after his death, depending on his tendencies in this life and level

of spiritual evolution will retain some aspects of his personality, which means

a person who loves music intensely will also in his next birth have an affinity

for music. The conditions of the birth and inbetween period depends both on his

inherent samaskaras as well the karmic repurcussion. It not, never, entirely

once choice. It a mix and match between what one wants and what one deserves. IN

all cases, to be able to retain the samskara Ahamakara is needed. Therefore,

Ahamkara exists even in beyond the death for a normal human being. Therewfore,

Ahamkara is present in the astral/casual plane as well.

> >

> >

> > Corollary #1:

> > A Devata as an Astral-being has I-ness due to his Manas, and doesn't have

Ahamkara for the work done by him in all the various physical bodies.

> >

> >

> > This example becomse invalid since the analysis of the first example itself

in incorrect.

> >

> > -Regards

> > Rajarshi

> >

> >

> >

> > The upsurge (of consciousness) is Bhairava - Shiva Sutra

> >

> > --- On Sun, 4/10/09, yeeahoo_99 <nitish.arya@> wrote:

> >

> >

> > yeeahoo_99 <nitish.arya@>

> > Re: Gyan Marga

> >

> > Sunday, 4 October, 2009, 9:40 AM

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > || OM TAT SAT ||

> > Dear Narasimha and Sundeep,

> >

> > Thanks for your feedback. I thought, I had written a quite clear and

explicit mail, but your reply has proved that it needs to be put down in at

least 10-fold simpler words.

> >

> > You read my mail, but picked up notions in an incorrect, incoherent manner,

and are reading beyond what is written in my mail.

> >

> > To prove my point, I would ask Sundeep to read my previous mail on " Gyan

Marg " followed by your reply and see if he also picks up the notions in the same

manner as you did ?

> >

> > The only addition required is an example:

> >

> > Your hypothesis

> > Ahamkara is the only I-ness there is for all the beings in all the 3

cosmoses i.e. all the Physical, Astral and Causal-bodied beings.

> >

> > Proof by Contradiction

> > A person who lives as a farmer, should, after death, remain a farmer in the

astral cosmos, and after subsequent astral death, should be reborn as the same

farmer with the same name and same identity as in his previous earthly

incarnation.

> > This is not the case, people don't even remember what they were in previous

birth, and start their life afresh in a new earthly body

> > => Contradiction

> > => the original hypothesis is wrong

> > => Ahamkara is not the only sense of I-ness applicable to all beings in all

the 3 cosmoses.

> >

> > Inference #1:

> > => Ahamkara is dominant sense of I-ness in Physical Cosmos.

> > => Manas is dominant sense of I-ness in Astral Cosmos.

> > => Chitta is dominant sense of I-ness in Causal Cosmos.

> >

> > Corollary #1:

> > A Devata as an Astral-being has I-ness due to his Manas, and doesn't have

Ahamkara for the work done by him in all the various physical bodies.

> >

> > Inference #1 and Corollary #1 is what I had written in my previous mail on

this topic.

> >

> > There are many other ways to prove the contradiction on this hypothesis

(e.g. Powers of beings in physical cosmos < those in astral cosmos < those in

causal cosmos).

> >

> > Your made two additional points that are also invalid. My comments on that

is:

> >

> > 1. I-ness derived from Ahamkara,Manas and Chitta has no innate power to

Control any other idea of the 35 Causal-ideas.

> > Reason:

> > Soul is the only Truth and controller, everything else has an unreal and

derived existence. Thus, all the 35 ideas co-ordinate with each other, and not

control each other.

> >

> > 2. A new-born child or a person in Hypnotic-Trance, is able to use his

sense-consciousness coherently due to the astral-bodys' sense of I-ness derived

from Manas, that coordinates the senses.

> > He has no Buddhi or discriminating faculty to interact with manas

(sensory-motor mind) and tell it what to do - as you have proposed. Thus, Manas

co-ordinates the senses due to its own sense of I-ness, not due to Buddhi.

> >

> > I hope this clarifies.

> >

> > Regards,

> > Nitish

> >

> > , Narasimha PVR Rao <pvr@> wrote:

> > >

> > > Namaste,

> > >

> > > Out of the 19 or 35 attributes of individualized consciousness, which one

gives the idea " I am this " or " I am that " ? Of course, it is ahamkaraka or I-ness

or egosense or ego principle!

> > >

> > > Is one's idea of " I am this " limited to a physical body? Of course not! If

someone says " so and so person is a terrible person " , one may feel offended or

if someone says " so and so person is a great person " , one may feel elated. One's

ahamkara or I-ness is identifying with the criticism or praise, even though

nothing is being done to the physical body and only a name is being used. When

somebody calls one by name from distance (as opposed to patting on the physical

body and calling), one's consciousness may still think " I am being called " and

one may turn towards the caller. As in these examples, one's I-ness does of

course bind itself to more than a body.

> > >

> > > Suppose one gets a dream while sleeping. One may have forgotten totally

about the physical body in the dream! One may think of something else as " I " . In

dreams, one may see oneself as a different body or may not even " see " onself,

but still one may have the sense that so and so thing is happening to " me " . So,

even when the mind is drawn away from the physical body, there is still a notion

of " I am this " (I-ness) in a dream. That is ahamkara or I-ness or ego principle.

> > >

> > > Your idea that ahamkara is limited to physical body is absolutely

unacceptable. Ahamkara or I-ness extends beyond the physical body.

> > >

> > > Also, your idea that deities like Agni do not have ahamkara (I-ness)

because they do not have physical bodies is incorrect. Of course, Agni does have

an I-ness and thinks " I am Agni and this is what I do " . If he did not have that

I-ness, he would not do everything he does.

> > >

> > > Moreover, the 19 or 35 ideas of individualized consciousness do interact

with each other, whether we use the word " control " for some of those

interactions or not. For example, buddhi (intellectual/ discriminating mind)

judges various past experiences, interacts with manas (sensory-motor mind) and

tells it what to do. Then manas interacts with karmendriyas (organs of action)

and makes them do various things. My buddhi determined what to write and my

manas told my hands to type this and I ended up typing.

> > >

> > > Your point about " what exists as a part cannot be the whole " is totally

out of place. The sense of I-ness, the memories and conditioning, the logical

mind, the sensory-motor mind, karmendriyas etc are all different parts of

individualized consciousness and they play different roles while interacting

with each other in different ways. Some of those interactions may be deemed to

be controls.

> > >

> > > > Am not mixing up the terminologies, though my mail didn't

> > > > go in details. Your understanding is flawed.

> > > >

> > > > 2. Where did you read this up ?

> > >

> > > One does not " read up " these things in a single place. There are different

abstractions and breakdowns of what happens in individualized consciousness.

There are several sources that speak of different aspects of this knowledge in

slightly different terms. One will assimilate this knowledge better if one reads

as many sources as possible and contemplates.

> > >

> > > Best regards,

> > > Narasimha

> > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -

> > > Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ homam

> > > Do Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ tarpana

> > > Spirituality: http://groups. / group/vedic- wisdom

> > > Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro. home.comcast. net

> > > Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAst rologer.org

> > > Jyotish writings: http://groups. / group/JyotishWri tings

> > > Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagan nath.org

> > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -

> > >

> > > ---- yeeahoo_99 <nitish.arya@ ...> wrote:

> > > > || OM TAT SAT ||

> > > > Dear Narasimha,

> > > > Please Ignore my previous-mail, it was not completed - i will try to

delete it.

> > > >

> > > > Am not mixing up the terminologies, though my mail didn't go in details.

Your understanding is flawed.

> > > >

> > > > 1. All ideas including the idea of Ahamkara naturally belong to the

ideational or causal body, but Ahamkara must be overcome only in the physical

body (See point 5.). Astral or Causal-bodied beings (those without a

physical/astral body) don't have to fight with the idea of Ahamkara like we do.

> > > >

> > > > > Ahamkaara/ego controls manas and buddhi also. When manas (sensory-

> > > > > ...they are all guided by the sense of I-ness. That sense of I-ness

> > > > > permeates through all layers of one's individualized consciousness.

> > > >

> > > > 2. Where did you read this up ?

> > > >

> > > > There is a fine line between the sense of I-ness attributed to the

Individual Soul and the sense of I-ness derived through the idea of Ahamkara.

Even after a Soul is freed of the three bodies, the individuality of the Soul

Atom is not destroyed (Resurrection implies that), while it has already given up

the idea of Ahamkara including all other ideas.

> > > >

> > > > Individuality of a causal-bodied being is not due to the idea of

Ahamkara because " What exists as a part cannot be the whole " . Thus, the idea of

Ahamkara, being one of the 35 ideas of the Causal-body, doesn't account for

neither controls the rest of the 34 ideas. Each idea is independent of another,

without requiring another idea to act upon it - otherwise your buddhi would

always interfere with the functioning of Mind or Ahamkara or the 5 functions of

life-forces and so on.

> > > >

> > > > Essentially, the 35 ideas of causal body are the basic causal forces and

are not related as cause-effect to each other. Thus, each is independent of the

application of the sense of I-ness derived from Ahamkara. Manas and Buddhi being

two of the Causal-ideas, their functioning as well as existence is not

" controlled " nor " derived " in any way by the idea of Ahamkara. It is very clear

when we see those with sharpest Buddhi or Sharpest Mind still carrying Heaviest

Ahamkara, because they didn't work upon that particular idea.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > > But ego/ahamkaara/ I-ness is the very basis of the entire

> > > > > individualized consciousness.

> > > >

> > > > 3. Well, as most Physical-bodied beings cannot see through the

Astral/causal cosmoses, it doesn't apply in the same way to the finer Astral and

Causal-bodied beings who can always pierce the veil of Maya and see the human

activities. Thus, what is " the very basis " of the entire individualized

consciousness for a physical-bodied (unenlightened) being is not the same as for

an astral/causal bodied being.

> > > > An Astral-bodied being thinks of Manas/sense- consciousness as the very

basis of the entire individualized consciousness.

> > > > A Causal-bodied being thinks of Chitta/perceptive- consciousness as the

very basis of the entire individualized consciousness.

> > > > However, that individuality is of the Soul not derived from any idea,

which is why it is not lost when the Astral being loses astral consciousness and

reincarnates in the Physical body.

> > > >

> > > > As an example, Devatas, with their finer bodies, are able to work

through all the beings in all their physical-bodies simultaneously (like Ganesh

resides in the Mooladhara, Agni digests the food, and so on..), never getting

controlled by Ahamkara that would require them to say that this particular body

is " my body " or that one is mine - unless they incarnate in Physical bodies

themselves. Devatas are, however, Astral/Causal- bodied beings, so they would

attempt to influence the Manas (Spirit-Possession) of the sense-bound

worshipper. Pretas on the other hand, would attempt to possess ones' physical

body as well as act out their Ahamkara.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > > Out of the four antahkaranas, chitta (remembering or conditioned

> > > > > mind) and ahamkaara (ego or I-ness) are parts of the kaarana

> > > > > sareera (causal body) and remain till the end.

> > > >

> > > > 4. As per the resurrected Soul of Sri Yukteswar in Autobiography of a

Yogi -

> > > >

> > > > Causal body is a matrix of 35 ideas, that include 19 ideas comprising

Astral body (Chitta, Manas, Buddhi, Ahamkara, 5 functions of knowledge, 5

functions of Action, 5 functions of life-force) and 16 ideas comprising Physical

body (16 chemical elements).

> > > >

> > > > Now, as we all know that Physical body expires as a whole, not just one

or two of the 16 elements comprising it go away at a time, Astral and Causal

bodies are also cast off as a whole in the corresponding cosmic consciousness -

instead of different constituent ideas slipping out of it at different times.

Chitta being the staging idea for all other modifications, can be termed as the

last to go, when the causal body is finally dropped - hence I wrote as rising

above Chitta.

> > > >

> > > > Thus, the idea of Ahamkara is bound with Gross Physical vibrations,

> > > > Manas with Subtle Astral vibrations and

> > > > Chitta with infinitely Subtle Causal Vibrations.

> > > >

> > > > Buddhi being another variable, can be developed or undeveloped

irrespective of the other 34. Even illiterate Moodha, through surrender to their

Guru, attain freedom from Ahamkara and so on...

> > > >

> > > > BTW, Chitta is not the Conditioned Mind. Chitta does store the residual

impressions of all the past incarnations. However, being constituted of Satwa

Guna, it doesn't have any inherent ability to act upon (Rajas) those

impressions, just like a container containing an inflammable liquid doesn't

automatically burn it down. Sadhana is required for That.

> > > > The Samskaras stored by Chitta, including those of Nidra, Smriti,

Vikalpa, Viparyaya, Pramana, correspond to the Tamo Guna, while the Chitta

itself is Satva Guna - hence the " Satvic - Tamas " represents the SuperEther

tattwa (refer my previous mail). The all-perceiving Satvic Chitta doesn't get

conditioned by the Tamo-guni Samskaras it stores.

> > > > Once the Chitta calms down, cleared of all residual impressions, only

Satva Guna remains, the intuition becomes coherent and the Soul reflects on

itself as distinct from Satva Guna of Prakriti (Chitta), thus realizing its own

nature as Brahman.

> > > >

> > > > 5.

> > > > In Patanjali Yoga Sutras:

> > > > drigadarshanaktyore katmataivasmita -6

> > > > Egoism is the identification of the seer with the instrument of seeing.

Patanjali has used Asmita instead of Ahamkara.

> > > > Since astral-bodied beings can use any of the senses like eyes to see,

hear, smell, taste and so on (refer Autobiography of a Yogi)... the sense of

egoism does not take roots in the astral-body and hence doesn't create Astral

Karma. Similarly, Causal bodied beings can use thought to sense everything.

> > > >

> > > > Hence, Egotism has to be rooted out while the consciousness is

associated with the Physical Body sensory activities or has Physical Karma.

> > > >

> > > > 6. The idea of Manas, as the controller of sense-consciousness , must be

overcome in Astral body, through Vairagya. Read autobiography of a Yogi (chapter

43) where Sri Yukteswar illustrates that only those beings who cannot be tempted

to go back to the pleasing to the eye Astral cosmos are permitted to stay

permanently in the Causal cosmos. Pleasing to the eye implies

Sense-consciousness which is associated with Manas.

> > > >

> > > > In Patanjali Yoga Sutras also it is mentioned in the same manner :

> > > >

> > > > dristanushravika vishaya vitrishnasya vashikara samjnavairagyam -15-

> > > >

> > > > That effect which comes to these who have given up their thirst after

objects, either seen or heard, and which wills to control the objects, is

non-attachment. Vivekananda has commented that Vairagya is the only way to

freedom.

> > > >

> > > > This is to be accomplished by transferring the consciousness to

Astral-Body and working out the Astral Karma or otherwise as an astral-bodied

being.

> > > >

> > > > 7. Patanjali Yoga Sutras:

> > > > yogashchittavrittin irodhah -2-

> > > > Thus, extinguishing all the movements of Chitta is called " Yoga " .

> > > >

> > > > This is to be accomplished by transferring the consciousness to

Causal-Body and working out the Causal Karma or otherwise as a causal-bodied

being.

> > > >

> > > > I hope this clarifies.

> > > >

> > > > Regards,

> > > > Nitish

> > > >

> > > > , Narasimha PVR Rao <pvr@> wrote:

> > > > >

> > > > > Namaste Nitish,

> > > > >

> > > > > I am afraid you are mixing up terminologies. For example, ego or

ahamkaara (sense of I-ness) is not limited to the physical body, but extends to

subtle body and causal body as well. In fact, ego resides in the causal body and

affects other bodies. Out of the four antahkaranas, chitta (remembering or

conditioned mind) and ahamkaara (ego or I-ness) are parts of the kaarana sareera

(causal body) and remain till the end.

> > > > >

> > > > > Ahamkaara/ego controls manas and buddhi also. When manas

(sensory-motor mind) observes sensory inputs or buddhi (intellectual or thinking

mind) analyzes current and past observations of mind or chitta (remembering or

conditioned mind) stores various observations or retrieves previously stored

observations, they are all guided by the sense of I-ness. That sense of I-ness

permeates through all layers of one's individualized consciousness.

> > > > >

> > > > > Upanishads and various scriptures have broken down the individualized

consciousness into various groups by functionality, like five koshas, three

sareeras, five praanas, five jnaanendriyas, five karmendriyas, four

antahkaranas, six/seven chakras etc. But ego/ahamkaara/ I-ness is the very basis

of the entire individualized consciousness.

> > > > >

> > > > > Though the word jnaana means different things to different people, a

jnaana yogi pursues Self by the path of contemplation and discrimination. When a

jnaana yogi reaches the final target, all bodies and koshas are merged in

cosmos.

> > > > >

> > > > > Best regards,

> > > > > Narasimha

> > > > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -

> > > > > Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ homam

> > > > > Do Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ tarpana

> > > > > Spirituality: http://groups. / group/vedic- wisdom

> > > > > Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro. home.comcast. net

> > > > > Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAst rologer.org

> > > > > Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagan nath.org

> > > > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -

> > > > >

> > > > > ---- yeeahoo_99 <nitish.arya@ > wrote:

> > > > > > || OM TAT SAT ||

> > > > > > Dear Narasimha,

> > > > > > In my opinion, there are three distinct phases that lead the sould

to rise above Ego, Mind and Chitta - corresponding to the three bodies physical

(Sthoola), astral (Sookshma) and causal (Karana) resp.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Rising above Ego is Jnana - Merging Physical body in Physical cosmos

> > > > > > Rising above Mind is Vairagya - Merging Astral body in Astral cosmos

> > > > > > Rising above Chitta is Yoga - Merging Causal body in Causal cosmos

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Finally, becoming established in Para-Brahman is YogaArudha.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Your comments.

> > > > > > Regards,

> > > > > > Nitish

> > > > > >

> > > > > > , " Narasimha P.V.R. Rao " <pvr@>

wrote:

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Namaste,

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Gyaani or jnaani is a wise and learned person, who may or may not

debate (or even engage) with others. One may become a gyaani using either gyaana

yoga or bhakti yoga or karma yoga or raaja yoga.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Gyaana/jnaana yoga is a path of pursuing the Supreme through

intellectual analysis. One pursuing that path may or may not debate with others

and may or may not read many scriptures, but one will analyze and debate within

oneself. One starts with the basic axioms (e.g. Self is imperishable and without

a beginning or an end). One will go on eliminating things that one is aware of

as not being Self. For example, body has a beginning and end and is perishable.

So it is not Self. One introspects like this and, though the process of

elimination, finally finds the true Self. That is gyaana yoga. Pure gyaana yoga

is very difficult to follow in this age.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Vichaara (contemplation) is the process of sadhana for an adherer

of pure gyaana yoga.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > However, the gyaana (knowledge of Self) achieved by such a person

at the end is not really different from the knowledge of Self achieved by a

person following another path.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Best regards,

> > > > > > > Narasimha

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Namaste Nitish ji,

 

>Ahamkara is an idea in Causal-body, so it is present all the time >till the

>soul is freed of the three body containers.

 

 

> " Ahamkara isn't the dominant cause of I-ness in Astral/Causal >bodies "

 

I am not getting your point here. you agree in the above given first statement

that Ahamkaara is an Idea present in all three bodies and remains TILL the soul

is freed from all the three containers.

 

The second statement says something radical. Ahamkaara and I Ness is completely

two different identity.

 

your second statment is a departure from almost every Gnyaani has to say.

 

I pray...you please clarify your understanding of Ahamkaara and I Ness.

 

looking forward to explanation of the above.

 

Thanks & Regards,

 

Utpal

 

 

 

, " yeeahoo_99 " <nitish.arya wrote:

>

> || OM TAT SAT ||

> Namaskar Rajarshi,

>

> Thanks for your contribution - all you have done is to prove what is

already known.

>

> > Therefore, Ahamkara exists even in beyond the death for a normal

> > human being. Therewfore, Ahamkara is present in the astral/casual

> > plane as well.

>

> 1. Do you realize what is being talked about and what you have ended up

proving ? Wherein did I deny that Ahamkara is not present in Astral/Causal

bodies ?

>

> Ahamkara is an idea in Causal-body, so it is present all the time till the

soul is freed of the three body containers.

>

> 2. OTOH, What I have stated, with reference to Patanjali Sutras, is that

Ahamkara is " SUPPRESSED " in Astral and Causal bodies. Meaning

>

> " Ahamkara isn't the dominant cause of I-ness in Astral/Causal bodies "

>

> And as a result wouldn't contribute to the acquisition of Astral/Causal

Karma.

>

> Why is Ahamkara not dominant in Astral/Causal bodies ?

> The reason I have already given in the first mail in sufficient detail.

>

> IF THE AHAMKARA IS NOT SUPPRESSED AFTER PHYSICAL DEATH, THE PERSON WILL

KEEP CARRYING THE SAME EARTHLY IDENTITY TO THE ASTRAL PLANES, AND BRING IT BACK

AT REBIRTH TO THE EARTH. AND THEN, HE WILL RECLAIM HIS LOST TERRITORY AND WEALTH

- THE CONFLICTS THAT WILL ARISE WILL BE BEYOND ANYBODY'S CONTROL.

> THUS, THE BEAUTIFUL ASTRAL SPHERE ARE SENSED BY THE I-NESS OF MANAS, while

CAUSAL SPHERE ARE SENSED BY THE I-NESS OF CHITTA.

>

> Please read more of " Sri Sri Paramahansa Yogananda " , he has mentioned about

all these things (what happens to a soul at death and so on) in such a

simplistic manner in his Gita commentaries, that even a layman can understand

it.

>

> Regards,

> Nitish

>

> , rajarshi nandy <rajarshi14@> wrote:

> >

> > Namaste

> >  

> > Proof by Contradiction

> > A person who lives as a farmer, should, after death, remain a farmer in the

astral cosmos, and after subsequent astral death, should be reborn as the same

farmer with the same name and same identity as in his previous earthly

incarnation.

> >  

> > Wrong example.

> >  

> > A person after his death, depending on his tendencies in this life and level

of spiritual evolution will retain some aspects of his personality, which means

a person who loves music intensely will also in his next birth have an affinity

for music. The conditions of the birth and inbetween period depends both on his

inherent samaskaras as well the karmic repurcussion. It not, never, entirely

once choice. It a mix and match between what one wants and what one deserves. IN

all cases, to be able to retain the samskara Ahamakara is needed. Therefore,

Ahamkara exists even in beyond the death for a normal human being. Therewfore,

Ahamkara is present in the astral/casual plane as well.

> >

> >

> > Corollary #1:

> > A Devata as an Astral-being has I-ness due to his Manas, and doesn't have

Ahamkara for the work done by him in all the various physical bodies.

> >

> >  

> > This example becomse invalid since the analysis of the first example itself

in incorrect.

> >  

> > -Regards

> >  Rajarshi

> >

> >

> >

> > The upsurge (of consciousness) is Bhairava - Shiva Sutra

> >

> > --- On Sun, 4/10/09, yeeahoo_99 <nitish.arya@> wrote:

> >

> >

> > yeeahoo_99 <nitish.arya@>

> > Re: Gyan Marga

> >

> > Sunday, 4 October, 2009, 9:40 AM

> >

> >

> >  

> >

> >

> >

> > || OM TAT SAT ||

> > Dear Narasimha and Sundeep,

> >

> > Thanks for your feedback. I thought, I had written a quite clear and

explicit mail, but your reply has proved that it needs to be put down in at

least 10-fold simpler words.

> >

> > You read my mail, but picked up notions in an incorrect, incoherent manner,

and are reading beyond what is written in my mail.

> >

> > To prove my point, I would ask Sundeep to read my previous mail on " Gyan

Marg " followed by your reply and see if he also picks up the notions in the same

manner as you did ?

> >

> > The only addition required is an example:

> >

> > Your hypothesis

> > Ahamkara is the only I-ness there is for all the beings in all the 3

cosmoses i.e. all the Physical, Astral and Causal-bodied beings.

> >

> > Proof by Contradiction

> > A person who lives as a farmer, should, after death, remain a farmer in the

astral cosmos, and after subsequent astral death, should be reborn as the same

farmer with the same name and same identity as in his previous earthly

incarnation.

> > This is not the case, people don't even remember what they were in previous

birth, and start their life afresh in a new earthly body

> > => Contradiction

> > => the original hypothesis is wrong

> > => Ahamkara is not the only sense of I-ness applicable to all beings in all

the 3 cosmoses.

> >

> > Inference #1:

> > => Ahamkara is dominant sense of I-ness in Physical Cosmos.

> > => Manas is dominant sense of I-ness in Astral Cosmos.

> > => Chitta is dominant sense of I-ness in Causal Cosmos.

> >

> > Corollary #1:

> > A Devata as an Astral-being has I-ness due to his Manas, and doesn't have

Ahamkara for the work done by him in all the various physical bodies.

> >

> > Inference #1 and Corollary #1 is what I had written in my previous mail on

this topic.

> >

> > There are many other ways to prove the contradiction on this hypothesis

(e.g. Powers of beings in physical cosmos < those in astral cosmos < those in

causal cosmos).

> >

> > Your made two additional points that are also invalid. My comments on that

is:

> >

> > 1. I-ness derived from Ahamkara,Manas and Chitta has no innate power to

Control any other idea of the 35 Causal-ideas.

> > Reason:

> > Soul is the only Truth and controller, everything else has an unreal and

derived existence. Thus, all the 35 ideas co-ordinate with each other, and not

control each other.

> >

> > 2. A new-born child or a person in Hypnotic-Trance, is able to use his

sense-consciousness coherently due to the astral-bodys' sense of I-ness derived

from Manas, that coordinates the senses.

> > He has no Buddhi or discriminating faculty to interact with manas

(sensory-motor mind) and tell it what to do - as you have proposed. Thus, Manas

co-ordinates the senses due to its own sense of I-ness, not due to Buddhi.

> >

> > I hope this clarifies.

> >

> > Regards,

> > Nitish

> >

> > , Narasimha PVR Rao <pvr@> wrote:

> > >

> > > Namaste,

> > >

> > > Out of the 19 or 35 attributes of individualized consciousness, which one

gives the idea " I am this " or " I am that " ? Of course, it is ahamkaraka or I-ness

or egosense or ego principle!

> > >

> > > Is one's idea of " I am this " limited to a physical body? Of course not! If

someone says " so and so person is a terrible person " , one may feel offended or

if someone says " so and so person is a great person " , one may feel elated. One's

ahamkara or I-ness is identifying with the criticism or praise, even though

nothing is being done to the physical body and only a name is being used. When

somebody calls one by name from distance (as opposed to patting on the physical

body and calling), one's consciousness may still think " I am being called " and

one may turn towards the caller. As in these examples, one's I-ness does of

course bind itself to more than a body.

> > >

> > > Suppose one gets a dream while sleeping. One may have forgotten totally

about the physical body in the dream! One may think of something else as " I " . In

dreams, one may see oneself as a different body or may not even " see " onself,

but still one may have the sense that so and so thing is happening to " me " . So,

even when the mind is drawn away from the physical body, there is still a notion

of " I am this " (I-ness) in a dream. That is ahamkara or I-ness or ego principle.

> > >

> > > Your idea that ahamkara is limited to physical body is absolutely

unacceptable. Ahamkara or I-ness extends beyond the physical body.

> > >

> > > Also, your idea that deities like Agni do not have ahamkara (I-ness)

because they do not have physical bodies is incorrect. Of course, Agni does have

an I-ness and thinks " I am Agni and this is what I do " . If he did not have that

I-ness, he would not do everything he does.

> > >

> > > Moreover, the 19 or 35 ideas of individualized consciousness do interact

with each other, whether we use the word " control " for some of those

interactions or not. For example, buddhi (intellectual/ discriminating mind)

judges various past experiences, interacts with manas (sensory-motor mind) and

tells it what to do. Then manas interacts with karmendriyas (organs of action)

and makes them do various things. My buddhi determined what to write and my

manas told my hands to type this and I ended up typing.

> > >

> > > Your point about " what exists as a part cannot be the whole " is totally

out of place. The sense of I-ness, the memories and conditioning, the logical

mind, the sensory-motor mind, karmendriyas etc are all different parts of

individualized consciousness and they play different roles while interacting

with each other in different ways. Some of those interactions may be deemed to

be controls.

> > >

> > > > Am not mixing up the terminologies, though my mail didn't

> > > > go in details. Your understanding is flawed.

> > > >

> > > > 2. Where did you read this up ?

> > >

> > > One does not " read up " these things in a single place. There are different

abstractions and breakdowns of what happens in individualized consciousness.

There are several sources that speak of different aspects of this knowledge in

slightly different terms. One will assimilate this knowledge better if one reads

as many sources as possible and contemplates.

> > >

> > > Best regards,

> > > Narasimha

> > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -

> > > Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ homam

> > > Do Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ tarpana

> > > Spirituality: http://groups. / group/vedic- wisdom

> > > Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro. home.comcast. net

> > > Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAst rologer.org

> > > Jyotish writings: http://groups. / group/JyotishWri tings

> > > Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagan nath.org

> > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -

> > >

> > > ---- yeeahoo_99 <nitish.arya@ ...> wrote:

> > > > || OM TAT SAT ||

> > > > Dear Narasimha,

> > > > Please Ignore my previous-mail, it was not completed - i will try to

delete it.

> > > >

> > > > Am not mixing up the terminologies, though my mail didn't go in details.

Your understanding is flawed.

> > > >

> > > > 1. All ideas including the idea of Ahamkara naturally belong to the

ideational or causal body, but Ahamkara must be overcome only in the physical

body (See point 5.). Astral or Causal-bodied beings (those without a

physical/astral body) don't have to fight with the idea of Ahamkara like we do.

> > > >

> > > > > Ahamkaara/ego controls manas and buddhi also. When manas (sensory-

> > > > > ...they are all guided by the sense of I-ness. That sense of I-ness

> > > > > permeates through all layers of one's individualized consciousness.

> > > >

> > > > 2. Where did you read this up ?

> > > >

> > > > There is a fine line between the sense of I-ness attributed to the

Individual Soul and the sense of I-ness derived through the idea of Ahamkara.

Even after a Soul is freed of the three bodies, the individuality of the Soul

Atom is not destroyed (Resurrection implies that), while it has already given up

the idea of Ahamkara including all other ideas.

> > > >

> > > > Individuality of a causal-bodied being is not due to the idea of

Ahamkara because " What exists as a part cannot be the whole " . Thus, the idea of

Ahamkara, being one of the 35 ideas of the Causal-body, doesn't account for

neither controls the rest of the 34 ideas. Each idea is independent of another,

without requiring another idea to act upon it - otherwise your buddhi would

always interfere with the functioning of Mind or Ahamkara or the 5 functions of

life-forces and so on.

> > > >

> > > > Essentially, the 35 ideas of causal body are the basic causal forces and

are not related as cause-effect to each other. Thus, each is independent of the

application of the sense of I-ness derived from Ahamkara. Manas and Buddhi being

two of the Causal-ideas, their functioning as well as existence is not

" controlled " nor " derived " in any way by the idea of Ahamkara. It is very clear

when we see those with sharpest Buddhi or Sharpest Mind still carrying Heaviest

Ahamkara, because they didn't work upon that particular idea.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > > But ego/ahamkaara/ I-ness is the very basis of the entire

> > > > > individualized consciousness.

> > > >

> > > > 3. Well, as most Physical-bodied beings cannot see through the

Astral/causal cosmoses, it doesn't apply in the same way to the finer Astral and

Causal-bodied beings who can always pierce the veil of Maya and see the human

activities. Thus, what is " the very basis " of the entire individualized

consciousness for a physical-bodied (unenlightened) being is not the same as for

an astral/causal bodied being.

> > > > An Astral-bodied being thinks of Manas/sense- consciousness as the very

basis of the entire individualized consciousness.

> > > > A Causal-bodied being thinks of Chitta/perceptive- consciousness as the

very basis of the entire individualized consciousness.

> > > > However, that individuality is of the Soul not derived from any idea,

which is why it is not lost when the Astral being loses astral consciousness and

reincarnates in the Physical body.

> > > >

> > > > As an example, Devatas, with their finer bodies, are able to work

through all the beings in all their physical-bodies simultaneously (like Ganesh

resides in the Mooladhara, Agni digests the food, and so on..), never getting

controlled by Ahamkara that would require them to say that this particular body

is " my body " or that one is mine - unless they incarnate in Physical bodies

themselves. Devatas are, however, Astral/Causal- bodied beings, so they would

attempt to influence the Manas (Spirit-Possession) of the sense-bound

worshipper. Pretas on the other hand, would attempt to possess ones' physical

body as well as act out their Ahamkara.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > > Out of the four antahkaranas, chitta (remembering or conditioned

> > > > > mind) and ahamkaara (ego or I-ness) are parts of the kaarana

> > > > > sareera (causal body) and remain till the end.

> > > >

> > > > 4. As per the resurrected Soul of Sri Yukteswar in Autobiography of a

Yogi -

> > > >

> > > > Causal body is a matrix of 35 ideas, that include 19 ideas comprising

Astral body (Chitta, Manas, Buddhi, Ahamkara, 5 functions of knowledge, 5

functions of Action, 5 functions of life-force) and 16 ideas comprising Physical

body (16 chemical elements).

> > > >

> > > > Now, as we all know that Physical body expires as a whole, not just one

or two of the 16 elements comprising it go away at a time, Astral and Causal

bodies are also cast off as a whole in the corresponding cosmic consciousness -

instead of different constituent ideas slipping out of it at different times.

Chitta being the staging idea for all other modifications, can be termed as the

last to go, when the causal body is finally dropped - hence I wrote as rising

above Chitta.

> > > >

> > > > Thus, the idea of Ahamkara is bound with Gross Physical vibrations,

> > > > Manas with Subtle Astral vibrations and

> > > > Chitta with infinitely Subtle Causal Vibrations.

> > > >

> > > > Buddhi being another variable, can be developed or undeveloped

irrespective of the other 34. Even illiterate Moodha, through surrender to their

Guru, attain freedom from Ahamkara and so on...

> > > >

> > > > BTW, Chitta is not the Conditioned Mind. Chitta does store the residual

impressions of all the past incarnations. However, being constituted of Satwa

Guna, it doesn't have any inherent ability to act upon (Rajas) those

impressions, just like a container containing an inflammable liquid doesn't

automatically burn it down. Sadhana is required for That.

> > > > The Samskaras stored by Chitta, including those of Nidra, Smriti,

Vikalpa, Viparyaya, Pramana, correspond to the Tamo Guna, while the Chitta

itself is Satva Guna - hence the " Satvic - Tamas " represents the SuperEther

tattwa (refer my previous mail). The all-perceiving Satvic Chitta doesn't get

conditioned by the Tamo-guni Samskaras it stores.

> > > > Once the Chitta calms down, cleared of all residual impressions, only

Satva Guna remains, the intuition becomes coherent and the Soul reflects on

itself as distinct from Satva Guna of Prakriti (Chitta), thus realizing its own

nature as Brahman.

> > > >

> > > > 5.

> > > > In Patanjali Yoga Sutras:

> > > > drigadarshanaktyore katmataivasmita -6

> > > > Egoism is the identification of the seer with the instrument of seeing.

Patanjali has used Asmita instead of Ahamkara.

> > > > Since astral-bodied beings can use any of the senses like eyes to see,

hear, smell, taste and so on (refer Autobiography of a Yogi)... the sense of

egoism does not take roots in the astral-body and hence doesn't create Astral

Karma. Similarly, Causal bodied beings can use thought to sense everything.

> > > >

> > > > Hence, Egotism has to be rooted out while the consciousness is

associated with the Physical Body sensory activities or has Physical Karma.

> > > >

> > > > 6. The idea of Manas, as the controller of sense-consciousness , must be

overcome in Astral body, through Vairagya. Read autobiography of a Yogi (chapter

43) where Sri Yukteswar illustrates that only those beings who cannot be tempted

to go back to the pleasing to the eye Astral cosmos are permitted to stay

permanently in the Causal cosmos. Pleasing to the eye implies

Sense-consciousness which is associated with Manas.

> > > >

> > > > In Patanjali Yoga Sutras also it is mentioned in the same manner :

> > > >

> > > > dristanushravika vishaya vitrishnasya vashikara samjnavairagyam -15-

> > > >

> > > > That effect which comes to these who have given up their thirst after

objects, either seen or heard, and which wills to control the objects, is

non-attachment. Vivekananda has commented that Vairagya is the only way to

freedom.

> > > >

> > > > This is to be accomplished by transferring the consciousness to

Astral-Body and working out the Astral Karma or otherwise as an astral-bodied

being.

> > > >

> > > > 7. Patanjali Yoga Sutras:

> > > > yogashchittavrittin irodhah -2-

> > > > Thus, extinguishing all the movements of Chitta is called " Yoga " .

> > > >

> > > > This is to be accomplished by transferring the consciousness to

Causal-Body and working out the Causal Karma or otherwise as a causal-bodied

being.

> > > >

> > > > I hope this clarifies.

> > > >

> > > > Regards,

> > > > Nitish

> > > >

> > > > , Narasimha PVR Rao <pvr@> wrote:

> > > > >

> > > > > Namaste Nitish,

> > > > >

> > > > > I am afraid you are mixing up terminologies. For example, ego or

ahamkaara (sense of I-ness) is not limited to the physical body, but extends to

subtle body and causal body as well. In fact, ego resides in the causal body and

affects other bodies. Out of the four antahkaranas, chitta (remembering or

conditioned mind) and ahamkaara (ego or I-ness) are parts of the kaarana sareera

(causal body) and remain till the end.

> > > > >

> > > > > Ahamkaara/ego controls manas and buddhi also. When manas

(sensory-motor mind) observes sensory inputs or buddhi (intellectual or thinking

mind) analyzes current and past observations of mind or chitta (remembering or

conditioned mind) stores various observations or retrieves previously stored

observations, they are all guided by the sense of I-ness. That sense of I-ness

permeates through all layers of one's individualized consciousness.

> > > > >

> > > > > Upanishads and various scriptures have broken down the individualized

consciousness into various groups by functionality, like five koshas, three

sareeras, five praanas, five jnaanendriyas, five karmendriyas, four

antahkaranas, six/seven chakras etc. But ego/ahamkaara/ I-ness is the very basis

of the entire individualized consciousness.

> > > > >

> > > > > Though the word jnaana means different things to different people, a

jnaana yogi pursues Self by the path of contemplation and discrimination. When a

jnaana yogi reaches the final target, all bodies and koshas are merged in

cosmos.

> > > > >

> > > > > Best regards,

> > > > > Narasimha

> > > > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -

> > > > > Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ homam

> > > > > Do Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ tarpana

> > > > > Spirituality: http://groups. / group/vedic- wisdom

> > > > > Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro. home.comcast. net

> > > > > Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAst rologer.org

> > > > > Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagan nath.org

> > > > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -

> > > > >

> > > > > ---- yeeahoo_99 <nitish.arya@ > wrote:

> > > > > > || OM TAT SAT ||

> > > > > > Dear Narasimha,

> > > > > > In my opinion, there are three distinct phases that lead the sould

to rise above Ego, Mind and Chitta - corresponding to the three bodies physical

(Sthoola), astral (Sookshma) and causal (Karana) resp.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Rising above Ego is Jnana - Merging Physical body in Physical cosmos

> > > > > > Rising above Mind is Vairagya - Merging Astral body in Astral cosmos

> > > > > > Rising above Chitta is Yoga - Merging Causal body in Causal cosmos

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Finally, becoming established in Para-Brahman is YogaArudha.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Your comments.

> > > > > > Regards,

> > > > > > Nitish

> > > > > >

> > > > > > , " Narasimha P.V.R. Rao " <pvr@>

wrote:

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Namaste,

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Gyaani or jnaani is a wise and learned person, who may or may not

debate (or even engage) with others. One may become a gyaani using either gyaana

yoga or bhakti yoga or karma yoga or raaja yoga.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Gyaana/jnaana yoga is a path of pursuing the Supreme through

intellectual analysis. One pursuing that path may or may not debate with others

and may or may not read many scriptures, but one will analyze and debate within

oneself. One starts with the basic axioms (e.g. Self is imperishable and without

a beginning or an end). One will go on eliminating things that one is aware of

as not being Self. For example, body has a beginning and end and is perishable.

So it is not Self. One introspects like this and, though the process of

elimination, finally finds the true Self. That is gyaana yoga. Pure gyaana yoga

is very difficult to follow in this age.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Vichaara (contemplation) is the process of sadhana for an adherer

of pure gyaana yoga.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > However, the gyaana (knowledge of Self) achieved by such a person

at the end is not really different from the knowledge of Self achieved by a

person following another path.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Best regards,

> > > > > > > Narasimha

> > >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > Try the new India Homepage.

http://in./trynew

> >

>

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Respected Nitishji,I am a layman and probably much younger then you of 27 yrs with not such deep knowledge like you but i believe that God is everything and every causation to my problems(though I think them purification kriyas of the soul) and happiness(attachment kriyas of the soul) in this drama called life.But I cant control my curiosity from asking:

What is your aim through this long discussion.Is it that you are commited in proving Narasimhaji wrong which is your afterall aim.If that is so what is your gain in it.For as far as I can understand these knowledge will not take you to God .Whats the point in discussing them now when after we reach God we will know everything.

Friend is not we taking the opposite way- Patanjali,Yogananda and all the seers and Mahapurushas that we have mentioned in this thread have spoken what we now read after they had realised God.But we are discussing these things before realising God.If you had my friend realised God even if you said wrong in this forum everyone would have accepted it to be right because not of the knowledge but because of HIS blessings.Dont take whatever I said in some other way .Just was thinking where this long discussion was going and so spoke my mind out.

Pardon me if I hurt anyones feelings.Thanking you.On Sun, Oct 4, 2009 at 4:45 PM, yeeahoo_99 <nitish.arya wrote:

 

 

 

 

 

 

|| OM TAT SAT ||

Namaskar Rajarshi,

 

Thanks for your contribution - all you have done is to prove what is already known.

 

> Therefore, Ahamkara exists even in beyond the death for a normal

> human being. Therewfore, Ahamkara is present in the astral/casual

> plane as well.

 

1. Do you realize what is being talked about and what you have ended up proving ? Wherein did I deny that Ahamkara is not present in Astral/Causal bodies ?

 

Ahamkara is an idea in Causal-body, so it is present all the time till the soul is freed of the three body containers.

 

2. OTOH, What I have stated, with reference to Patanjali Sutras, is that Ahamkara is " SUPPRESSED " in Astral and Causal bodies. Meaning

 

" Ahamkara isn't the dominant cause of I-ness in Astral/Causal bodies "

 

And as a result wouldn't contribute to the acquisition of Astral/Causal Karma.

 

Why is Ahamkara not dominant in Astral/Causal bodies ?

The reason I have already given in the first mail in sufficient detail.

 

IF THE AHAMKARA IS NOT SUPPRESSED AFTER PHYSICAL DEATH, THE PERSON WILL KEEP CARRYING THE SAME EARTHLY IDENTITY TO THE ASTRAL PLANES, AND BRING IT BACK AT REBIRTH TO THE EARTH. AND THEN, HE WILL RECLAIM HIS LOST TERRITORY AND WEALTH - THE CONFLICTS THAT WILL ARISE WILL BE BEYOND ANYBODY'S CONTROL.

THUS, THE BEAUTIFUL ASTRAL SPHERE ARE SENSED BY THE I-NESS OF MANAS, while CAUSAL SPHERE ARE SENSED BY THE I-NESS OF CHITTA.

 

Please read more of " Sri Sri Paramahansa Yogananda " , he has mentioned about all these things (what happens to a soul at death and so on) in such a simplistic manner in his Gita commentaries, that even a layman can understand it.

 

Regards,

Nitish

 

, rajarshi nandy <rajarshi14 wrote:

>

> Namaste

>  

> Proof by Contradiction

> A person who lives as a farmer, should, after death, remain a farmer in the astral cosmos, and after subsequent astral death, should be reborn as the same farmer with the same name and same identity as in his previous earthly incarnation.

>  

> Wrong example.

>  

> A person after his death, depending on his tendencies in this life and level of spiritual evolution will retain some aspects of his personality, which means a person who loves music intensely will also in his next birth have an affinity for music. The conditions of the birth and inbetween period depends both on his inherent samaskaras as well the karmic repurcussion. It not, never, entirely once choice. It a mix and match between what one wants and what one deserves. IN all cases, to be able to retain the samskara Ahamakara is needed. Therefore, Ahamkara exists even in beyond the death for a normal human being. Therewfore, Ahamkara is present in the astral/casual plane as well.

>

>

> Corollary #1:

> A Devata as an Astral-being has I-ness due to his Manas, and doesn't have Ahamkara for the work done by him in all the various physical bodies.

>

>  

> This example becomse invalid since the analysis of the first example itself in incorrect.

>  

> -Regards

>  Rajarshi

>

>

>

> The upsurge (of consciousness) is Bhairava - Shiva Sutra

>

> --- On Sun, 4/10/09, yeeahoo_99 <nitish.arya wrote:

>

>

> yeeahoo_99 <nitish.arya

> Re: Gyan Marga

>

> Sunday, 4 October, 2009, 9:40 AM

>

>

>  

>

>

>

> || OM TAT SAT ||

> Dear Narasimha and Sundeep,

>

> Thanks for your feedback. I thought, I had written a quite clear and explicit mail, but your reply has proved that it needs to be put down in at least 10-fold simpler words.

>

> You read my mail, but picked up notions in an incorrect, incoherent manner, and are reading beyond what is written in my mail.

>

> To prove my point, I would ask Sundeep to read my previous mail on " Gyan Marg " followed by your reply and see if he also picks up the notions in the same manner as you did ?

>

> The only addition required is an example:

>

> Your hypothesis

> Ahamkara is the only I-ness there is for all the beings in all the 3 cosmoses i.e. all the Physical, Astral and Causal-bodied beings.

>

> Proof by Contradiction

> A person who lives as a farmer, should, after death, remain a farmer in the astral cosmos, and after subsequent astral death, should be reborn as the same farmer with the same name and same identity as in his previous earthly incarnation.

> This is not the case, people don't even remember what they were in previous birth, and start their life afresh in a new earthly body

> => Contradiction

> => the original hypothesis is wrong

> => Ahamkara is not the only sense of I-ness applicable to all beings in all the 3 cosmoses.

>

> Inference #1:

> => Ahamkara is dominant sense of I-ness in Physical Cosmos.

> => Manas is dominant sense of I-ness in Astral Cosmos.

> => Chitta is dominant sense of I-ness in Causal Cosmos.

>

> Corollary #1:

> A Devata as an Astral-being has I-ness due to his Manas, and doesn't have Ahamkara for the work done by him in all the various physical bodies.

>

> Inference #1 and Corollary #1 is what I had written in my previous mail on this topic.

>

> There are many other ways to prove the contradiction on this hypothesis (e.g. Powers of beings in physical cosmos < those in astral cosmos < those in causal cosmos).

>

> Your made two additional points that are also invalid. My comments on that is:

>

> 1. I-ness derived from Ahamkara,Manas and Chitta has no innate power to Control any other idea of the 35 Causal-ideas.

> Reason:

> Soul is the only Truth and controller, everything else has an unreal and derived existence. Thus, all the 35 ideas co-ordinate with each other, and not control each other.

>

> 2. A new-born child or a person in Hypnotic-Trance, is able to use his sense-consciousness coherently due to the astral-bodys' sense of I-ness derived from Manas, that coordinates the senses.

> He has no Buddhi or discriminating faculty to interact with manas (sensory-motor mind) and tell it what to do - as you have proposed. Thus, Manas co-ordinates the senses due to its own sense of I-ness, not due to Buddhi.

>

> I hope this clarifies.

>

> Regards,

> Nitish

>

> , Narasimha PVR Rao <pvr@> wrote:

> >

> > Namaste,

> >

> > Out of the 19 or 35 attributes of individualized consciousness, which one gives the idea " I am this " or " I am that " ? Of course, it is ahamkaraka or I-ness or egosense or ego principle!

> >

> > Is one's idea of " I am this " limited to a physical body? Of course not! If someone says " so and so person is a terrible person " , one may feel offended or if someone says " so and so person is a great person " , one may feel elated. One's ahamkara or I-ness is identifying with the criticism or praise, even though nothing is being done to the physical body and only a name is being used. When somebody calls one by name from distance (as opposed to patting on the physical body and calling), one's consciousness may still think " I am being called " and one may turn towards the caller. As in these examples, one's I-ness does of course bind itself to more than a body.

> >

> > Suppose one gets a dream while sleeping. One may have forgotten totally about the physical body in the dream! One may think of something else as " I " . In dreams, one may see oneself as a different body or may not even " see " onself, but still one may have the sense that so and so thing is happening to " me " . So, even when the mind is drawn away from the physical body, there is still a notion of " I am this " (I-ness) in a dream. That is ahamkara or I-ness or ego principle.

> >

> > Your idea that ahamkara is limited to physical body is absolutely unacceptable. Ahamkara or I-ness extends beyond the physical body.

> >

> > Also, your idea that deities like Agni do not have ahamkara (I-ness) because they do not have physical bodies is incorrect. Of course, Agni does have an I-ness and thinks " I am Agni and this is what I do " . If he did not have that I-ness, he would not do everything he does.

> >

> > Moreover, the 19 or 35 ideas of individualized consciousness do interact with each other, whether we use the word " control " for some of those interactions or not. For example, buddhi (intellectual/ discriminating mind) judges various past experiences, interacts with manas (sensory-motor mind) and tells it what to do. Then manas interacts with karmendriyas (organs of action) and makes them do various things. My buddhi determined what to write and my manas told my hands to type this and I ended up typing.

> >

> > Your point about " what exists as a part cannot be the whole " is totally out of place. The sense of I-ness, the memories and conditioning, the logical mind, the sensory-motor mind, karmendriyas etc are all different parts of individualized consciousness and they play different roles while interacting with each other in different ways. Some of those interactions may be deemed to be controls.

> >

> > > Am not mixing up the terminologies, though my mail didn't

> > > go in details. Your understanding is flawed.

> > >

> > > 2. Where did you read this up ?

> >

> > One does not " read up " these things in a single place. There are different abstractions and breakdowns of what happens in individualized consciousness. There are several sources that speak of different aspects of this knowledge in slightly different terms. One will assimilate this knowledge better if one reads as many sources as possible and contemplates.

> >

> > Best regards,

> > Narasimha

> > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -

> > Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ homam

> > Do Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ tarpana

> > Spirituality: http://groups. / group/vedic- wisdom

> > Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro. home.comcast. net

> > Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAst rologer.org

> > Jyotish writings: http://groups. / group/JyotishWri tings

> > Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagan nath.org

> > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -

> >

> > ---- yeeahoo_99 <nitish.arya@ ...> wrote:

> > > || OM TAT SAT ||

> > > Dear Narasimha,

> > > Please Ignore my previous-mail, it was not completed - i will try to delete it.

> > >

> > > Am not mixing up the terminologies, though my mail didn't go in details. Your understanding is flawed.

> > >

> > > 1. All ideas including the idea of Ahamkara naturally belong to the ideational or causal body, but Ahamkara must be overcome only in the physical body (See point 5.). Astral or Causal-bodied beings (those without a physical/astral body) don't have to fight with the idea of Ahamkara like we do.

> > >

> > > > Ahamkaara/ego controls manas and buddhi also. When manas (sensory-

> > > > ...they are all guided by the sense of I-ness. That sense of I-ness

> > > > permeates through all layers of one's individualized consciousness.

> > >

> > > 2. Where did you read this up ?

> > >

> > > There is a fine line between the sense of I-ness attributed to the Individual Soul and the sense of I-ness derived through the idea of Ahamkara. Even after a Soul is freed of the three bodies, the individuality of the Soul Atom is not destroyed (Resurrection implies that), while it has already given up the idea of Ahamkara including all other ideas.

> > >

> > > Individuality of a causal-bodied being is not due to the idea of Ahamkara because " What exists as a part cannot be the whole " . Thus, the idea of Ahamkara, being one of the 35 ideas of the Causal-body, doesn't account for neither controls the rest of the 34 ideas. Each idea is independent of another, without requiring another idea to act upon it - otherwise your buddhi would always interfere with the functioning of Mind or Ahamkara or the 5 functions of life-forces and so on.

> > >

> > > Essentially, the 35 ideas of causal body are the basic causal forces and are not related as cause-effect to each other. Thus, each is independent of the application of the sense of I-ness derived from Ahamkara. Manas and Buddhi being two of the Causal-ideas, their functioning as well as existence is not " controlled " nor " derived " in any way by the idea of Ahamkara. It is very clear when we see those with sharpest Buddhi or Sharpest Mind still carrying Heaviest Ahamkara, because they didn't work upon that particular idea.

> > >

> > >

> > > > But ego/ahamkaara/ I-ness is the very basis of the entire

> > > > individualized consciousness.

> > >

> > > 3. Well, as most Physical-bodied beings cannot see through the Astral/causal cosmoses, it doesn't apply in the same way to the finer Astral and Causal-bodied beings who can always pierce the veil of Maya and see the human activities. Thus, what is " the very basis " of the entire individualized consciousness for a physical-bodied (unenlightened) being is not the same as for an astral/causal bodied being.

> > > An Astral-bodied being thinks of Manas/sense- consciousness as the very basis of the entire individualized consciousness.

> > > A Causal-bodied being thinks of Chitta/perceptive- consciousness as the very basis of the entire individualized consciousness.

> > > However, that individuality is of the Soul not derived from any idea, which is why it is not lost when the Astral being loses astral consciousness and reincarnates in the Physical body.

> > >

> > > As an example, Devatas, with their finer bodies, are able to work through all the beings in all their physical-bodies simultaneously (like Ganesh resides in the Mooladhara, Agni digests the food, and so on..), never getting controlled by Ahamkara that would require them to say that this particular body is " my body " or that one is mine - unless they incarnate in Physical bodies themselves. Devatas are, however, Astral/Causal- bodied beings, so they would attempt to influence the Manas (Spirit-Possession) of the sense-bound worshipper. Pretas on the other hand, would attempt to possess ones' physical body as well as act out their Ahamkara.

> > >

> > >

> > > > Out of the four antahkaranas, chitta (remembering or conditioned

> > > > mind) and ahamkaara (ego or I-ness) are parts of the kaarana

> > > > sareera (causal body) and remain till the end.

> > >

> > > 4. As per the resurrected Soul of Sri Yukteswar in Autobiography of a Yogi -

> > >

> > > Causal body is a matrix of 35 ideas, that include 19 ideas comprising Astral body (Chitta, Manas, Buddhi, Ahamkara, 5 functions of knowledge, 5 functions of Action, 5 functions of life-force) and 16 ideas comprising Physical body (16 chemical elements).

> > >

> > > Now, as we all know that Physical body expires as a whole, not just one or two of the 16 elements comprising it go away at a time, Astral and Causal bodies are also cast off as a whole in the corresponding cosmic consciousness - instead of different constituent ideas slipping out of it at different times. Chitta being the staging idea for all other modifications, can be termed as the last to go, when the causal body is finally dropped - hence I wrote as rising above Chitta.

> > >

> > > Thus, the idea of Ahamkara is bound with Gross Physical vibrations,

> > > Manas with Subtle Astral vibrations and

> > > Chitta with infinitely Subtle Causal Vibrations.

> > >

> > > Buddhi being another variable, can be developed or undeveloped irrespective of the other 34. Even illiterate Moodha, through surrender to their Guru, attain freedom from Ahamkara and so on...

> > >

> > > BTW, Chitta is not the Conditioned Mind. Chitta does store the residual impressions of all the past incarnations. However, being constituted of Satwa Guna, it doesn't have any inherent ability to act upon (Rajas) those impressions, just like a container containing an inflammable liquid doesn't automatically burn it down. Sadhana is required for That.

> > > The Samskaras stored by Chitta, including those of Nidra, Smriti, Vikalpa, Viparyaya, Pramana, correspond to the Tamo Guna, while the Chitta itself is Satva Guna - hence the " Satvic - Tamas " represents the SuperEther tattwa (refer my previous mail). The all-perceiving Satvic Chitta doesn't get conditioned by the Tamo-guni Samskaras it stores.

> > > Once the Chitta calms down, cleared of all residual impressions, only Satva Guna remains, the intuition becomes coherent and the Soul reflects on itself as distinct from Satva Guna of Prakriti (Chitta), thus realizing its own nature as Brahman.

> > >

> > > 5.

> > > In Patanjali Yoga Sutras:

> > > drigadarshanaktyore katmataivasmita -6

> > > Egoism is the identification of the seer with the instrument of seeing. Patanjali has used Asmita instead of Ahamkara.

> > > Since astral-bodied beings can use any of the senses like eyes to see, hear, smell, taste and so on (refer Autobiography of a Yogi)... the sense of egoism does not take roots in the astral-body and hence doesn't create Astral Karma. Similarly, Causal bodied beings can use thought to sense everything.

> > >

> > > Hence, Egotism has to be rooted out while the consciousness is associated with the Physical Body sensory activities or has Physical Karma.

> > >

> > > 6. The idea of Manas, as the controller of sense-consciousness , must be overcome in Astral body, through Vairagya. Read autobiography of a Yogi (chapter 43) where Sri Yukteswar illustrates that only those beings who cannot be tempted to go back to the pleasing to the eye Astral cosmos are permitted to stay permanently in the Causal cosmos. Pleasing to the eye implies Sense-consciousness which is associated with Manas.

> > >

> > > In Patanjali Yoga Sutras also it is mentioned in the same manner :

> > >

> > > dristanushravika vishaya vitrishnasya vashikara samjnavairagyam -15-

> > >

> > > That effect which comes to these who have given up their thirst after objects, either seen or heard, and which wills to control the objects, is non-attachment. Vivekananda has commented that Vairagya is the only way to freedom.

> > >

> > > This is to be accomplished by transferring the consciousness to Astral-Body and working out the Astral Karma or otherwise as an astral-bodied being.

> > >

> > > 7. Patanjali Yoga Sutras:

> > > yogashchittavrittin irodhah -2-

> > > Thus, extinguishing all the movements of Chitta is called " Yoga " .

> > >

> > > This is to be accomplished by transferring the consciousness to Causal-Body and working out the Causal Karma or otherwise as a causal-bodied being.

> > >

> > > I hope this clarifies.

> > >

> > > Regards,

> > > Nitish

> > >

> > > , Narasimha PVR Rao <pvr@> wrote:

> > > >

> > > > Namaste Nitish,

> > > >

> > > > I am afraid you are mixing up terminologies. For example, ego or ahamkaara (sense of I-ness) is not limited to the physical body, but extends to subtle body and causal body as well. In fact, ego resides in the causal body and affects other bodies. Out of the four antahkaranas, chitta (remembering or conditioned mind) and ahamkaara (ego or I-ness) are parts of the kaarana sareera (causal body) and remain till the end.

> > > >

> > > > Ahamkaara/ego controls manas and buddhi also. When manas (sensory-motor mind) observes sensory inputs or buddhi (intellectual or thinking mind) analyzes current and past observations of mind or chitta (remembering or conditioned mind) stores various observations or retrieves previously stored observations, they are all guided by the sense of I-ness. That sense of I-ness permeates through all layers of one's individualized consciousness.

> > > >

> > > > Upanishads and various scriptures have broken down the individualized consciousness into various groups by functionality, like five koshas, three sareeras, five praanas, five jnaanendriyas, five karmendriyas, four antahkaranas, six/seven chakras etc. But ego/ahamkaara/ I-ness is the very basis of the entire individualized consciousness.

> > > >

> > > > Though the word jnaana means different things to different people, a jnaana yogi pursues Self by the path of contemplation and discrimination. When a jnaana yogi reaches the final target, all bodies and koshas are merged in cosmos.

> > > >

> > > > Best regards,

> > > > Narasimha

> > > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -

> > > > Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ homam

> > > > Do Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ tarpana

> > > > Spirituality: http://groups. / group/vedic- wisdom

> > > > Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro. home.comcast. net

> > > > Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAst rologer.org

> > > > Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagan nath.org

> > > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -

> > > >

> > > > ---- yeeahoo_99 <nitish.arya@ > wrote:

> > > > > || OM TAT SAT ||

> > > > > Dear Narasimha,

> > > > > In my opinion, there are three distinct phases that lead the sould to rise above Ego, Mind and Chitta - corresponding to the three bodies physical (Sthoola), astral (Sookshma) and causal (Karana) resp.

> > > > >

> > > > > Rising above Ego is Jnana - Merging Physical body in Physical cosmos

> > > > > Rising above Mind is Vairagya - Merging Astral body in Astral cosmos

> > > > > Rising above Chitta is Yoga - Merging Causal body in Causal cosmos

> > > > >

> > > > > Finally, becoming established in Para-Brahman is YogaArudha.

> > > > >

> > > > > Your comments.

> > > > > Regards,

> > > > > Nitish

> > > > >

> > > > > , " Narasimha P.V.R. Rao " <pvr@> wrote:

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Namaste,

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Gyaani or jnaani is a wise and learned person, who may or may not debate (or even engage) with others. One may become a gyaani using either gyaana yoga or bhakti yoga or karma yoga or raaja yoga.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Gyaana/jnaana yoga is a path of pursuing the Supreme through intellectual analysis. One pursuing that path may or may not debate with others and may or may not read many scriptures, but one will analyze and debate within oneself. One starts with the basic axioms (e.g. Self is imperishable and without a beginning or an end). One will go on eliminating things that one is aware of as not being Self. For example, body has a beginning and end and is perishable. So it is not Self. One introspects like this and, though the process of elimination, finally finds the true Self. That is gyaana yoga. Pure gyaana yoga is very difficult to follow in this age.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Vichaara (contemplation) is the process of sadhana for an adherer of pure gyaana yoga.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > However, the gyaana (knowledge of Self) achieved by such a person at the end is not really different from the knowledge of Self achieved by a person following another path.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Best regards,

> > > > > > Narasimha

> >

>

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> Try the new India Homepage. http://in./trynew

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|| OM TAT SAT ||

Dear Utpalji and Narasimha,

 

If any of you is offended due to my being explicit with words - it also shows

that you people have a lot of scope in learning of new ideas!

 

> The second statement says something radical. Ahamkaara and I Ness

> is completely two different identity.

> your second statment is a departure from almost every Gnyaani has

> to say.

 

It is none of my fault that this conflict arose and continues. Here is the

reason.

 

In my first mail (#2704) itself it is explicitly written, that Patanjali has

used the exact word " asmita " for Egoism - which is the I-ness (Ahamkara) in

Physical body consciousness - that causes identification of the seer with the

instrument of seeing i.e. Physical senses.

 

> In Patanjali Yoga Sutras:

> drigadarshanaktyorekatmataivasmita -6

> Egoism is the identification of the seer with the instrument of

> seeing.

 

>>> Patanjali has used Asmita instead of Ahamkara.

 

 

PATANJALI has not used the word AHAMKARA anywhere in his PRECISE AND ESTEEMED

sanskrit dissertation on YOGA - he has chosen to use the word ASMITA everywhere.

E.g.

 

1. vitarka vicharanandasmita rupanugamat samprajnatah -

 

SASMITA SAMADHI

 

2. From Lahiri Mahasayas' Commentary on Patanjali -

 

avidyasmitaragadveshabhinibeshah panchakleshah

 

" Avidya " [ignorance], " asmita " [egotism], " raga " [attraction or

liking], " dvesha " [hatred or disliking] and " abhinibesha " [engrossment] --

these are the five types of afflictions.

 

Thus, using " Ahamkara " while talking about Sankhya and using " Asmita " while

talking about Patanjali Sutras brought in the conflict. In any case, what is

called as Ahamkara in 24 principles of Sankhya is actually Asmita, which can be

very-loosely pitted as Ahamkara.

 

The idea stated by me was on firm grounds - with reference to Patanjali Sutras

and the words of Sri Yukteswar in Autobiography of a Yogi. And this idea is

there in my first mail, though not the exact table:

 

PHYSICAL I-NESS (AHAMKARA) = ASMITA = Physical Egotism

ASTRAL I-NESS (AHAMKARA) = MANAS = Astral attachments

CAUSAL I-NESS (AHAMKARA) = CHITTA = Causal Perceptions

 

Also, one of the 2 reasons that I had given on why Astral/Causal Body beings

don't have sense of Asmita as a dominant sense of I-ness is this:

 

> Since astral-bodied beings can use any of the senses like eyes to

> see, hear, smell, taste and so on (refer Autobiography of a

> Yogi)... the sense of egoism does not take roots in the astral-body > and

hence doesn't create Astral Karma.

> Similarly, Causal bodied beings can use thought to sense everything.

 

> Hence, Egotism has to be rooted out while the consciousness is

> associated with the Physical Body sensory activities or has

> Physical Karma.

 

Lastly, extending upon this idea further, there are beings in the Astral

cosmos who have never been in Physical forms - We Physical beings are not the

only ones in the cycles of creation. While they will still have the idea of

" Asmita " in their causal bodies, but they will always be repelled by the

grosser-vibrations of Sensual experiences in Physical Bodies/Cosmos, and hence

would not incur any Physical Karma due to " Asmita " .

 

--------------------------------

[ TO ALL IN THE LIST ]

- If the above explanation resolves the issue, well and good. Whether it does

or doesn't, this is my last mail on this topic because I had said all I had to

in the first mail itself - whether you read it or missed it.

You may read a detailed article on this topic that I will write as and when

time allows me to do so.

 

 

[ TO UTPALJI ]

- Am not a jnani.

But there are Jnanis, who know that 6th tattwa doesn't exist.

That is why there is a significant departure.

 

[ TO NARASIMHA ]

 

> So you are accepting that there as " I-ness of manas " and " I-ness of > chitta " .

I-ness=aham-kaara.

 

There was never a time that I didn't, and I have no control over what meaning

you derive from my words.

 

> I still think this is a case of a Pascal language programmer

> unfamiliar with C language misunderstanding some software written

> in C language and passing comments. But unfortunately that

> programmer seems to be hasty in using labels like " flawed " ,

> " incorrect " , " incoherent " etc about other programmers whose

> language he is unable to understand.

 

The power of mind needs no language to express itself...If a Programmer just

understands this much, he will become the Architect!

Also, while a Programmer always assumes that every other person he encounters

is a Programmer, an Architect knows that every other person is an Architect in

making. Hope you become an Architect one day!

 

Regards,

Nitish

 

, " vedic_pathak " <vedic_pathak wrote:

>

> Namaste Nitish ji,

>

> >Ahamkara is an idea in Causal-body, so it is present all the time >till the

> >soul is freed of the three body containers.

>

>

> > " Ahamkara isn't the dominant cause of I-ness in Astral/Causal >bodies "

>

> I am not getting your point here. you agree in the above given first statement

that Ahamkaara is an Idea present in all three bodies and remains TILL the soul

is freed from all the three containers.

>

> The second statement says something radical. Ahamkaara and I Ness is

completely two different identity.

>

> your second statment is a departure from almost every Gnyaani has to say.

>

> I pray...you please clarify your understanding of Ahamkaara and I Ness.

>

> looking forward to explanation of the above.

>

> Thanks & Regards,

>

> Utpal

>

>

>

> , " yeeahoo_99 " <nitish.arya@> wrote:

> >

> > || OM TAT SAT ||

> > Namaskar Rajarshi,

> >

> > Thanks for your contribution - all you have done is to prove what is

already known.

> >

> > > Therefore, Ahamkara exists even in beyond the death for a normal

> > > human being. Therewfore, Ahamkara is present in the astral/casual

> > > plane as well.

> >

> > 1. Do you realize what is being talked about and what you have ended up

proving ? Wherein did I deny that Ahamkara is not present in Astral/Causal

bodies ?

> >

> > Ahamkara is an idea in Causal-body, so it is present all the time till

the soul is freed of the three body containers.

> >

> > 2. OTOH, What I have stated, with reference to Patanjali Sutras, is that

Ahamkara is " SUPPRESSED " in Astral and Causal bodies. Meaning

> >

> > " Ahamkara isn't the dominant cause of I-ness in Astral/Causal bodies "

> >

> > And as a result wouldn't contribute to the acquisition of Astral/Causal

Karma.

> >

> > Why is Ahamkara not dominant in Astral/Causal bodies ?

> > The reason I have already given in the first mail in sufficient detail.

> >

> > IF THE AHAMKARA IS NOT SUPPRESSED AFTER PHYSICAL DEATH, THE PERSON WILL

KEEP CARRYING THE SAME EARTHLY IDENTITY TO THE ASTRAL PLANES, AND BRING IT BACK

AT REBIRTH TO THE EARTH. AND THEN, HE WILL RECLAIM HIS LOST TERRITORY AND WEALTH

- THE CONFLICTS THAT WILL ARISE WILL BE BEYOND ANYBODY'S CONTROL.

> > THUS, THE BEAUTIFUL ASTRAL SPHERE ARE SENSED BY THE I-NESS OF MANAS,

while CAUSAL SPHERE ARE SENSED BY THE I-NESS OF CHITTA.

> >

> > Please read more of " Sri Sri Paramahansa Yogananda " , he has mentioned

about all these things (what happens to a soul at death and so on) in such a

simplistic manner in his Gita commentaries, that even a layman can understand

it.

> >

> > Regards,

> > Nitish

> >

> > , rajarshi nandy <rajarshi14@> wrote:

> > >

> > > Namaste

> > >  

> > > Proof by Contradiction

> > > A person who lives as a farmer, should, after death, remain a farmer in

the astral cosmos, and after subsequent astral death, should be reborn as the

same farmer with the same name and same identity as in his previous earthly

incarnation.

> > >  

> > > Wrong example.

> > >  

> > > A person after his death, depending on his tendencies in this life and

level of spiritual evolution will retain some aspects of his personality, which

means a person who loves music intensely will also in his next birth have an

affinity for music. The conditions of the birth and inbetween period depends

both on his inherent samaskaras as well the karmic repurcussion. It not, never,

entirely once choice. It a mix and match between what one wants and what one

deserves. IN all cases, to be able to retain the samskara Ahamakara is needed.

Therefore, Ahamkara exists even in beyond the death for a normal human being.

Therewfore, Ahamkara is present in the astral/casual plane as well.

> > >

> > >

> > > Corollary #1:

> > > A Devata as an Astral-being has I-ness due to his Manas, and doesn't have

Ahamkara for the work done by him in all the various physical bodies.

> > >

> > >  

> > > This example becomse invalid since the analysis of the first example

itself in incorrect.

> > >  

> > > -Regards

> > >  Rajarshi

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > The upsurge (of consciousness) is Bhairava - Shiva Sutra

> > >

> > > --- On Sun, 4/10/09, yeeahoo_99 <nitish.arya@> wrote:

> > >

> > >

> > > yeeahoo_99 <nitish.arya@>

> > > Re: Gyan Marga

> > >

> > > Sunday, 4 October, 2009, 9:40 AM

> > >

> > >

> > >  

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > || OM TAT SAT ||

> > > Dear Narasimha and Sundeep,

> > >

> > > Thanks for your feedback. I thought, I had written a quite clear and

explicit mail, but your reply has proved that it needs to be put down in at

least 10-fold simpler words.

> > >

> > > You read my mail, but picked up notions in an incorrect, incoherent

manner, and are reading beyond what is written in my mail.

> > >

> > > To prove my point, I would ask Sundeep to read my previous mail on " Gyan

Marg " followed by your reply and see if he also picks up the notions in the same

manner as you did ?

> > >

> > > The only addition required is an example:

> > >

> > > Your hypothesis

> > > Ahamkara is the only I-ness there is for all the beings in all the 3

cosmoses i.e. all the Physical, Astral and Causal-bodied beings.

> > >

> > > Proof by Contradiction

> > > A person who lives as a farmer, should, after death, remain a farmer in

the astral cosmos, and after subsequent astral death, should be reborn as the

same farmer with the same name and same identity as in his previous earthly

incarnation.

> > > This is not the case, people don't even remember what they were in

previous birth, and start their life afresh in a new earthly body

> > > => Contradiction

> > > => the original hypothesis is wrong

> > > => Ahamkara is not the only sense of I-ness applicable to all beings in

all the 3 cosmoses.

> > >

> > > Inference #1:

> > > => Ahamkara is dominant sense of I-ness in Physical Cosmos.

> > > => Manas is dominant sense of I-ness in Astral Cosmos.

> > > => Chitta is dominant sense of I-ness in Causal Cosmos.

> > >

> > > Corollary #1:

> > > A Devata as an Astral-being has I-ness due to his Manas, and doesn't have

Ahamkara for the work done by him in all the various physical bodies.

> > >

> > > Inference #1 and Corollary #1 is what I had written in my previous mail on

this topic.

> > >

> > > There are many other ways to prove the contradiction on this hypothesis

(e.g. Powers of beings in physical cosmos < those in astral cosmos < those in

causal cosmos).

> > >

> > > Your made two additional points that are also invalid. My comments on that

is:

> > >

> > > 1. I-ness derived from Ahamkara,Manas and Chitta has no innate power to

Control any other idea of the 35 Causal-ideas.

> > > Reason:

> > > Soul is the only Truth and controller, everything else has an unreal and

derived existence. Thus, all the 35 ideas co-ordinate with each other, and not

control each other.

> > >

> > > 2. A new-born child or a person in Hypnotic-Trance, is able to use his

sense-consciousness coherently due to the astral-bodys' sense of I-ness derived

from Manas, that coordinates the senses.

> > > He has no Buddhi or discriminating faculty to interact with manas

(sensory-motor mind) and tell it what to do - as you have proposed. Thus, Manas

co-ordinates the senses due to its own sense of I-ness, not due to Buddhi.

> > >

> > > I hope this clarifies.

> > >

> > > Regards,

> > > Nitish

> > >

> > > , Narasimha PVR Rao <pvr@> wrote:

> > > >

> > > > Namaste,

> > > >

> > > > Out of the 19 or 35 attributes of individualized consciousness, which

one gives the idea " I am this " or " I am that " ? Of course, it is ahamkaraka or

I-ness or egosense or ego principle!

> > > >

> > > > Is one's idea of " I am this " limited to a physical body? Of course not!

If someone says " so and so person is a terrible person " , one may feel offended

or if someone says " so and so person is a great person " , one may feel elated.

One's ahamkara or I-ness is identifying with the criticism or praise, even

though nothing is being done to the physical body and only a name is being used.

When somebody calls one by name from distance (as opposed to patting on the

physical body and calling), one's consciousness may still think " I am being

called " and one may turn towards the caller. As in these examples, one's I-ness

does of course bind itself to more than a body.

> > > >

> > > > Suppose one gets a dream while sleeping. One may have forgotten totally

about the physical body in the dream! One may think of something else as " I " . In

dreams, one may see oneself as a different body or may not even " see " onself,

but still one may have the sense that so and so thing is happening to " me " . So,

even when the mind is drawn away from the physical body, there is still a notion

of " I am this " (I-ness) in a dream. That is ahamkara or I-ness or ego principle.

> > > >

> > > > Your idea that ahamkara is limited to physical body is absolutely

unacceptable. Ahamkara or I-ness extends beyond the physical body.

> > > >

> > > > Also, your idea that deities like Agni do not have ahamkara (I-ness)

because they do not have physical bodies is incorrect. Of course, Agni does have

an I-ness and thinks " I am Agni and this is what I do " . If he did not have that

I-ness, he would not do everything he does.

> > > >

> > > > Moreover, the 19 or 35 ideas of individualized consciousness do interact

with each other, whether we use the word " control " for some of those

interactions or not. For example, buddhi (intellectual/ discriminating mind)

judges various past experiences, interacts with manas (sensory-motor mind) and

tells it what to do. Then manas interacts with karmendriyas (organs of action)

and makes them do various things. My buddhi determined what to write and my

manas told my hands to type this and I ended up typing.

> > > >

> > > > Your point about " what exists as a part cannot be the whole " is totally

out of place. The sense of I-ness, the memories and conditioning, the logical

mind, the sensory-motor mind, karmendriyas etc are all different parts of

individualized consciousness and they play different roles while interacting

with each other in different ways. Some of those interactions may be deemed to

be controls.

> > > >

> > > > > Am not mixing up the terminologies, though my mail didn't

> > > > > go in details. Your understanding is flawed.

> > > > >

> > > > > 2. Where did you read this up ?

> > > >

> > > > One does not " read up " these things in a single place. There are

different abstractions and breakdowns of what happens in individualized

consciousness. There are several sources that speak of different aspects of this

knowledge in slightly different terms. One will assimilate this knowledge better

if one reads as many sources as possible and contemplates.

> > > >

> > > > Best regards,

> > > > Narasimha

> > > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -

> > > > Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ homam

> > > > Do Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ tarpana

> > > > Spirituality: http://groups. / group/vedic- wisdom

> > > > Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro. home.comcast. net

> > > > Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAst rologer.org

> > > > Jyotish writings: http://groups. / group/JyotishWri tings

> > > > Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagan nath.org

> > > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -

> > > >

> > > > ---- yeeahoo_99 <nitish.arya@ ...> wrote:

> > > > > || OM TAT SAT ||

> > > > > Dear Narasimha,

> > > > > Please Ignore my previous-mail, it was not completed - i will try to

delete it.

> > > > >

> > > > > Am not mixing up the terminologies, though my mail didn't go in

details. Your understanding is flawed.

> > > > >

> > > > > 1. All ideas including the idea of Ahamkara naturally belong to the

ideational or causal body, but Ahamkara must be overcome only in the physical

body (See point 5.). Astral or Causal-bodied beings (those without a

physical/astral body) don't have to fight with the idea of Ahamkara like we do.

> > > > >

> > > > > > Ahamkaara/ego controls manas and buddhi also. When manas (sensory-

> > > > > > ...they are all guided by the sense of I-ness. That sense of I-ness

> > > > > > permeates through all layers of one's individualized consciousness.

> > > > >

> > > > > 2. Where did you read this up ?

> > > > >

> > > > > There is a fine line between the sense of I-ness attributed to the

Individual Soul and the sense of I-ness derived through the idea of Ahamkara.

Even after a Soul is freed of the three bodies, the individuality of the Soul

Atom is not destroyed (Resurrection implies that), while it has already given up

the idea of Ahamkara including all other ideas.

> > > > >

> > > > > Individuality of a causal-bodied being is not due to the idea of

Ahamkara because " What exists as a part cannot be the whole " . Thus, the idea of

Ahamkara, being one of the 35 ideas of the Causal-body, doesn't account for

neither controls the rest of the 34 ideas. Each idea is independent of another,

without requiring another idea to act upon it - otherwise your buddhi would

always interfere with the functioning of Mind or Ahamkara or the 5 functions of

life-forces and so on.

> > > > >

> > > > > Essentially, the 35 ideas of causal body are the basic causal forces

and are not related as cause-effect to each other. Thus, each is independent of

the application of the sense of I-ness derived from Ahamkara. Manas and Buddhi

being two of the Causal-ideas, their functioning as well as existence is not

" controlled " nor " derived " in any way by the idea of Ahamkara. It is very clear

when we see those with sharpest Buddhi or Sharpest Mind still carrying Heaviest

Ahamkara, because they didn't work upon that particular idea.

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > > But ego/ahamkaara/ I-ness is the very basis of the entire

> > > > > > individualized consciousness.

> > > > >

> > > > > 3. Well, as most Physical-bodied beings cannot see through the

Astral/causal cosmoses, it doesn't apply in the same way to the finer Astral and

Causal-bodied beings who can always pierce the veil of Maya and see the human

activities. Thus, what is " the very basis " of the entire individualized

consciousness for a physical-bodied (unenlightened) being is not the same as for

an astral/causal bodied being.

> > > > > An Astral-bodied being thinks of Manas/sense- consciousness as the

very basis of the entire individualized consciousness.

> > > > > A Causal-bodied being thinks of Chitta/perceptive- consciousness as

the very basis of the entire individualized consciousness.

> > > > > However, that individuality is of the Soul not derived from any idea,

which is why it is not lost when the Astral being loses astral consciousness and

reincarnates in the Physical body.

> > > > >

> > > > > As an example, Devatas, with their finer bodies, are able to work

through all the beings in all their physical-bodies simultaneously (like Ganesh

resides in the Mooladhara, Agni digests the food, and so on..), never getting

controlled by Ahamkara that would require them to say that this particular body

is " my body " or that one is mine - unless they incarnate in Physical bodies

themselves. Devatas are, however, Astral/Causal- bodied beings, so they would

attempt to influence the Manas (Spirit-Possession) of the sense-bound

worshipper. Pretas on the other hand, would attempt to possess ones' physical

body as well as act out their Ahamkara.

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > > Out of the four antahkaranas, chitta (remembering or conditioned

> > > > > > mind) and ahamkaara (ego or I-ness) are parts of the kaarana

> > > > > > sareera (causal body) and remain till the end.

> > > > >

> > > > > 4. As per the resurrected Soul of Sri Yukteswar in Autobiography of a

Yogi -

> > > > >

> > > > > Causal body is a matrix of 35 ideas, that include 19 ideas comprising

Astral body (Chitta, Manas, Buddhi, Ahamkara, 5 functions of knowledge, 5

functions of Action, 5 functions of life-force) and 16 ideas comprising Physical

body (16 chemical elements).

> > > > >

> > > > > Now, as we all know that Physical body expires as a whole, not just

one or two of the 16 elements comprising it go away at a time, Astral and Causal

bodies are also cast off as a whole in the corresponding cosmic consciousness -

instead of different constituent ideas slipping out of it at different times.

Chitta being the staging idea for all other modifications, can be termed as the

last to go, when the causal body is finally dropped - hence I wrote as rising

above Chitta.

> > > > >

> > > > > Thus, the idea of Ahamkara is bound with Gross Physical vibrations,

> > > > > Manas with Subtle Astral vibrations and

> > > > > Chitta with infinitely Subtle Causal Vibrations.

> > > > >

> > > > > Buddhi being another variable, can be developed or undeveloped

irrespective of the other 34. Even illiterate Moodha, through surrender to their

Guru, attain freedom from Ahamkara and so on...

> > > > >

> > > > > BTW, Chitta is not the Conditioned Mind. Chitta does store the

residual impressions of all the past incarnations. However, being constituted of

Satwa Guna, it doesn't have any inherent ability to act upon (Rajas) those

impressions, just like a container containing an inflammable liquid doesn't

automatically burn it down. Sadhana is required for That.

> > > > > The Samskaras stored by Chitta, including those of Nidra, Smriti,

Vikalpa, Viparyaya, Pramana, correspond to the Tamo Guna, while the Chitta

itself is Satva Guna - hence the " Satvic - Tamas " represents the SuperEther

tattwa (refer my previous mail). The all-perceiving Satvic Chitta doesn't get

conditioned by the Tamo-guni Samskaras it stores.

> > > > > Once the Chitta calms down, cleared of all residual impressions, only

Satva Guna remains, the intuition becomes coherent and the Soul reflects on

itself as distinct from Satva Guna of Prakriti (Chitta), thus realizing its own

nature as Brahman.

> > > > >

> > > > > 5.

> > > > > In Patanjali Yoga Sutras:

> > > > > drigadarshanaktyore katmataivasmita -6

> > > > > Egoism is the identification of the seer with the instrument of

seeing. Patanjali has used Asmita instead of Ahamkara.

> > > > > Since astral-bodied beings can use any of the senses like eyes to see,

hear, smell, taste and so on (refer Autobiography of a Yogi)... the sense of

egoism does not take roots in the astral-body and hence doesn't create Astral

Karma. Similarly, Causal bodied beings can use thought to sense everything.

> > > > >

> > > > > Hence, Egotism has to be rooted out while the consciousness is

associated with the Physical Body sensory activities or has Physical Karma.

> > > > >

> > > > > 6. The idea of Manas, as the controller of sense-consciousness , must

be overcome in Astral body, through Vairagya. Read autobiography of a Yogi

(chapter 43) where Sri Yukteswar illustrates that only those beings who cannot

be tempted to go back to the pleasing to the eye Astral cosmos are permitted to

stay permanently in the Causal cosmos. Pleasing to the eye implies

Sense-consciousness which is associated with Manas.

> > > > >

> > > > > In Patanjali Yoga Sutras also it is mentioned in the same manner :

> > > > >

> > > > > dristanushravika vishaya vitrishnasya vashikara samjnavairagyam -15-

> > > > >

> > > > > That effect which comes to these who have given up their thirst after

objects, either seen or heard, and which wills to control the objects, is

non-attachment. Vivekananda has commented that Vairagya is the only way to

freedom.

> > > > >

> > > > > This is to be accomplished by transferring the consciousness to

Astral-Body and working out the Astral Karma or otherwise as an astral-bodied

being.

> > > > >

> > > > > 7. Patanjali Yoga Sutras:

> > > > > yogashchittavrittin irodhah -2-

> > > > > Thus, extinguishing all the movements of Chitta is called " Yoga " .

> > > > >

> > > > > This is to be accomplished by transferring the consciousness to

Causal-Body and working out the Causal Karma or otherwise as a causal-bodied

being.

> > > > >

> > > > > I hope this clarifies.

> > > > >

> > > > > Regards,

> > > > > Nitish

> > > > >

> > > > > , Narasimha PVR Rao <pvr@> wrote:

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Namaste Nitish,

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I am afraid you are mixing up terminologies. For example, ego or

ahamkaara (sense of I-ness) is not limited to the physical body, but extends to

subtle body and causal body as well. In fact, ego resides in the causal body and

affects other bodies. Out of the four antahkaranas, chitta (remembering or

conditioned mind) and ahamkaara (ego or I-ness) are parts of the kaarana sareera

(causal body) and remain till the end.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Ahamkaara/ego controls manas and buddhi also. When manas

(sensory-motor mind) observes sensory inputs or buddhi (intellectual or thinking

mind) analyzes current and past observations of mind or chitta (remembering or

conditioned mind) stores various observations or retrieves previously stored

observations, they are all guided by the sense of I-ness. That sense of I-ness

permeates through all layers of one's individualized consciousness.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Upanishads and various scriptures have broken down the

individualized consciousness into various groups by functionality, like five

koshas, three sareeras, five praanas, five jnaanendriyas, five karmendriyas,

four antahkaranas, six/seven chakras etc. But ego/ahamkaara/ I-ness is the very

basis of the entire individualized consciousness.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Though the word jnaana means different things to different people, a

jnaana yogi pursues Self by the path of contemplation and discrimination. When a

jnaana yogi reaches the final target, all bodies and koshas are merged in

cosmos.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Best regards,

> > > > > > Narasimha

> > > > > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -

> > > > > > Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ homam

> > > > > > Do Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ tarpana

> > > > > > Spirituality: http://groups. / group/vedic- wisdom

> > > > > > Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro. home.comcast. net

> > > > > > Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAst rologer.org

> > > > > > Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagan nath.org

> > > > > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -

> > > > > >

> > > > > > ---- yeeahoo_99 <nitish.arya@ > wrote:

> > > > > > > || OM TAT SAT ||

> > > > > > > Dear Narasimha,

> > > > > > > In my opinion, there are three distinct phases that lead the sould

to rise above Ego, Mind and Chitta - corresponding to the three bodies physical

(Sthoola), astral (Sookshma) and causal (Karana) resp.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Rising above Ego is Jnana - Merging Physical body in Physical

cosmos

> > > > > > > Rising above Mind is Vairagya - Merging Astral body in Astral

cosmos

> > > > > > > Rising above Chitta is Yoga - Merging Causal body in Causal cosmos

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Finally, becoming established in Para-Brahman is YogaArudha.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Your comments.

> > > > > > > Regards,

> > > > > > > Nitish

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > , " Narasimha P.V.R. Rao "

<pvr@> wrote:

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Namaste,

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Gyaani or jnaani is a wise and learned person, who may or may

not debate (or even engage) with others. One may become a gyaani using either

gyaana yoga or bhakti yoga or karma yoga or raaja yoga.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Gyaana/jnaana yoga is a path of pursuing the Supreme through

intellectual analysis. One pursuing that path may or may not debate with others

and may or may not read many scriptures, but one will analyze and debate within

oneself. One starts with the basic axioms (e.g. Self is imperishable and without

a beginning or an end). One will go on eliminating things that one is aware of

as not being Self. For example, body has a beginning and end and is perishable.

So it is not Self. One introspects like this and, though the process of

elimination, finally finds the true Self. That is gyaana yoga. Pure gyaana yoga

is very difficult to follow in this age.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Vichaara (contemplation) is the process of sadhana for an

adherer of pure gyaana yoga.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > However, the gyaana (knowledge of Self) achieved by such a

person at the end is not really different from the knowledge of Self achieved by

a person following another path.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Best regards,

> > > > > > > > Narasimha

> > > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > Try the new India Homepage.

http://in./trynew

> > >

> >

>

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|| OM TAT SAT ||

Namaskar Krishnendu,

 

> I am a layman and probably much younger then you of 27 yrs with not > such

deep knowledge like you but i believe that God is everything

> and every causation to my problems(though I think them purification > kriyas

of the soul) and happiness(attachment kriyas of the soul) in > this drama called

life.

 

Well, you are 2 years younger to me.

You misunderstand the path of knowledge. What you think is deep knowledge was

acquired, when I thought of writing an answer to Narasimhas' mail on " Gyan

Marg " . It is not even a week old!

 

> What is your aim through this long discussion.Is it that you are

> commited in proving Narasimhaji wrong which is your afterall aim.If > that is

so what is your gain in it.

 

Do you think that the knowledge of " my intention for discussion " , will help

you reach God faster ? Are you sure, this is what you really want to know ?

 

> For as far as I can understand these knowledge will not take you

> to God .

 

But, then you don't know everything. Right.

 

> Whats the point in discussing them now when after we reach God

> we will know everything.

 

Probably, You have not seen another person suffer because you didn't know

something.

 

> Friend is not we taking the opposite way- Patanjali,Yogananda and

> all the seers and Mahapurushas that we have mentioned in this

> thread have spoken what we now read after they had realised God.But > we are

discussing these things before realising God.

 

How to find out what is opposite way ? How do you know that all these

Patanjali etc. didn't discuss these things before and after they attained

God-realization ?

 

> If you had my friend realised God even if you said wrong in this

> forum everyone would have accepted it to be right because not of

> the knowledge but because of HIS blessings.

 

How many times has Gods' blessings done this kind of a thing for you that you

are so sure of it being a criteria for assessing another persons' level of

God-realization ?

 

> Dont take whatever I said in some other way .Just was thinking

> where this long discussion was going and so spoke my mind out.

> Pardon me if I hurt anyones feelings.

 

And what have you said anyways ?

Long discussions are circular, they don't go anywhere :).

You are Pardoned!

 

Addendum -

1. God-Realization means different things to different people.

2. For some, it is the be-all and end-all of all their lifes' pursuits, for

others it is the beginning.

3. If God gives me a better work, I might't be writing mails.

 

Regards,

Nitish

 

, krish chaudhuri <krishnenduchdhr

wrote:

>

> Respected Nitishji,

> I am a layman and probably much younger then you of 27 yrs with not such

> deep knowledge like you but i believe that God is everything and every

> causation to my problems(though I think them purification kriyas of the

> soul) and happiness(attachment kriyas of the soul) in this drama called

> life.But I cant control my curiosity from asking:

>

> What is your aim through this long discussion.Is it that you are commited in

> proving Narasimhaji wrong which is your afterall aim.If that is so what is

> your gain in it.For as far as I can understand these knowledge will not take

> you to God .Whats the point in discussing them now when after we reach God

> we will know everything.

> Friend is not we taking the opposite way- Patanjali,Yogananda and all the

> seers and Mahapurushas that we have mentioned in this thread have spoken

> what we now read after they had realised God.But we are discussing these

> things before realising God.If you had my friend realised God even if you

> said wrong in this forum everyone would have accepted it to be right because

> not of the knowledge but because of HIS blessings.Dont take whatever I said

> in some other way .Just was thinking where this long discussion was going

> and so spoke my mind out.

> Pardon me if I hurt anyones feelings.

> Thanking you.

>

> On Sun, Oct 4, 2009 at 4:45 PM, yeeahoo_99 <nitish.arya wrote:

>

> >

> >

> > || OM TAT SAT ||

> > Namaskar Rajarshi,

> >

> > Thanks for your contribution - all you have done is to prove what is

> > already known.

> >

> >

> > > Therefore, Ahamkara exists even in beyond the death for a normal

> > > human being. Therewfore, Ahamkara is present in the astral/casual

> > > plane as well.

> >

> > 1. Do you realize what is being talked about and what you have ended up

> > proving ? Wherein did I deny that Ahamkara is not present in Astral/Causal

> > bodies ?

> >

> > Ahamkara is an idea in Causal-body, so it is present all the time till the

> > soul is freed of the three body containers.

> >

> > 2. OTOH, What I have stated, with reference to Patanjali Sutras, is that

> > Ahamkara is " SUPPRESSED " in Astral and Causal bodies. Meaning

> >

> > " Ahamkara isn't the dominant cause of I-ness in Astral/Causal bodies "

> >

> > And as a result wouldn't contribute to the acquisition of Astral/Causal

> > Karma.

> >

> > Why is Ahamkara not dominant in Astral/Causal bodies ?

> > The reason I have already given in the first mail in sufficient detail.

> >

> > IF THE AHAMKARA IS NOT SUPPRESSED AFTER PHYSICAL DEATH, THE PERSON WILL

> > KEEP CARRYING THE SAME EARTHLY IDENTITY TO THE ASTRAL PLANES, AND BRING IT

> > BACK AT REBIRTH TO THE EARTH. AND THEN, HE WILL RECLAIM HIS LOST TERRITORY

> > AND WEALTH - THE CONFLICTS THAT WILL ARISE WILL BE BEYOND ANYBODY'S CONTROL.

> >

> > THUS, THE BEAUTIFUL ASTRAL SPHERE ARE SENSED BY THE I-NESS OF MANAS, while

> > CAUSAL SPHERE ARE SENSED BY THE I-NESS OF CHITTA.

> >

> > Please read more of " Sri Sri Paramahansa Yogananda " , he has mentioned about

> > all these things (what happens to a soul at death and so on) in such a

> > simplistic manner in his Gita commentaries, that even a layman can

> > understand it.

> >

> > Regards,

> > Nitish

> >

> > <%40>,

> > rajarshi nandy <rajarshi14@> wrote:

> > >

> > > Namaste

> > >

> > > Proof by Contradiction

> > > A person who lives as a farmer, should, after death, remain a farmer in

> > the astral cosmos, and after subsequent astral death, should be reborn as

> > the same farmer with the same name and same identity as in his previous

> > earthly incarnation.

> > >

> > > Wrong example.

> > >

> > > A person after his death, depending on his tendencies in this life and

> > level of spiritual evolution will retain some aspects of his personality,

> > which means a person who loves music intensely will also in his next birth

> > have an affinity for music. The conditions of the birth and inbetween period

> > depends both on his inherent samaskaras as well the karmic repurcussion. It

> > not, never, entirely once choice. It a mix and match between what one wants

> > and what one deserves. IN all cases, to be able to retain the samskara

> > Ahamakara is needed. Therefore, Ahamkara exists even in beyond the death for

> > a normal human being. Therewfore, Ahamkara is present in the astral/casual

> > plane as well.

> > >

> > >

> > > Corollary #1:

> > > A Devata as an Astral-being has I-ness due to his Manas, and doesn't have

> > Ahamkara for the work done by him in all the various physical bodies.

> > >

> > >

> > > This example becomse invalid since the analysis of the first example

> > itself in incorrect.

> > >

> > > -Regards

> > > Rajarshi

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > The upsurge (of consciousness) is Bhairava - Shiva Sutra

> > >

> > > --- On Sun, 4/10/09, yeeahoo_99 <nitish.arya@> wrote:

> > >

> > >

> > > yeeahoo_99 <nitish.arya@>

> >

> > > Re: Gyan Marga

> > > <%40>

> > > Sunday, 4 October, 2009, 9:40 AM

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > || OM TAT SAT ||

> > > Dear Narasimha and Sundeep,

> > >

> > > Thanks for your feedback. I thought, I had written a quite clear and

> > explicit mail, but your reply has proved that it needs to be put down in at

> > least 10-fold simpler words.

> > >

> > > You read my mail, but picked up notions in an incorrect, incoherent

> > manner, and are reading beyond what is written in my mail.

> > >

> > > To prove my point, I would ask Sundeep to read my previous mail on " Gyan

> > Marg " followed by your reply and see if he also picks up the notions in the

> > same manner as you did ?

> > >

> > > The only addition required is an example:

> > >

> > > Your hypothesis

> > > Ahamkara is the only I-ness there is for all the beings in all the 3

> > cosmoses i.e. all the Physical, Astral and Causal-bodied beings.

> > >

> > > Proof by Contradiction

> > > A person who lives as a farmer, should, after death, remain a farmer in

> > the astral cosmos, and after subsequent astral death, should be reborn as

> > the same farmer with the same name and same identity as in his previous

> > earthly incarnation.

> > > This is not the case, people don't even remember what they were in

> > previous birth, and start their life afresh in a new earthly body

> > > => Contradiction

> > > => the original hypothesis is wrong

> > > => Ahamkara is not the only sense of I-ness applicable to all beings in

> > all the 3 cosmoses.

> > >

> > > Inference #1:

> > > => Ahamkara is dominant sense of I-ness in Physical Cosmos.

> > > => Manas is dominant sense of I-ness in Astral Cosmos.

> > > => Chitta is dominant sense of I-ness in Causal Cosmos.

> > >

> > > Corollary #1:

> > > A Devata as an Astral-being has I-ness due to his Manas, and doesn't have

> > Ahamkara for the work done by him in all the various physical bodies.

> > >

> > > Inference #1 and Corollary #1 is what I had written in my previous mail

> > on this topic.

> > >

> > > There are many other ways to prove the contradiction on this hypothesis

> > (e.g. Powers of beings in physical cosmos < those in astral cosmos < those

> > in causal cosmos).

> > >

> > > Your made two additional points that are also invalid. My comments on

> > that is:

> > >

> > > 1. I-ness derived from Ahamkara,Manas and Chitta has no innate power to

> > Control any other idea of the 35 Causal-ideas.

> > > Reason:

> > > Soul is the only Truth and controller, everything else has an unreal and

> > derived existence. Thus, all the 35 ideas co-ordinate with each other, and

> > not control each other.

> > >

> > > 2. A new-born child or a person in Hypnotic-Trance, is able to use his

> > sense-consciousness coherently due to the astral-bodys' sense of I-ness

> > derived from Manas, that coordinates the senses.

> > > He has no Buddhi or discriminating faculty to interact with manas

> > (sensory-motor mind) and tell it what to do - as you have proposed. Thus,

> > Manas co-ordinates the senses due to its own sense of I-ness, not due to

> > Buddhi.

> > >

> > > I hope this clarifies.

> > >

> > > Regards,

> > > Nitish

> > >

> > > , Narasimha PVR Rao <pvr@> wrote:

> > > >

> > > > Namaste,

> > > >

> > > > Out of the 19 or 35 attributes of individualized consciousness, which

> > one gives the idea " I am this " or " I am that " ? Of course, it is ahamkaraka

> > or I-ness or egosense or ego principle!

> > > >

> > > > Is one's idea of " I am this " limited to a physical body? Of course not!

> > If someone says " so and so person is a terrible person " , one may feel

> > offended or if someone says " so and so person is a great person " , one may

> > feel elated. One's ahamkara or I-ness is identifying with the criticism or

> > praise, even though nothing is being done to the physical body and only a

> > name is being used. When somebody calls one by name from distance (as

> > opposed to patting on the physical body and calling), one's consciousness

> > may still think " I am being called " and one may turn towards the caller. As

> > in these examples, one's I-ness does of course bind itself to more than a

> > body.

> > > >

> > > > Suppose one gets a dream while sleeping. One may have forgotten totally

> > about the physical body in the dream! One may think of something else as

> > " I " . In dreams, one may see oneself as a different body or may not even

> > " see " onself, but still one may have the sense that so and so thing is

> > happening to " me " . So, even when the mind is drawn away from the physical

> > body, there is still a notion of " I am this " (I-ness) in a dream. That is

> > ahamkara or I-ness or ego principle.

> > > >

> > > > Your idea that ahamkara is limited to physical body is absolutely

> > unacceptable. Ahamkara or I-ness extends beyond the physical body.

> > > >

> > > > Also, your idea that deities like Agni do not have ahamkara (I-ness)

> > because they do not have physical bodies is incorrect. Of course, Agni does

> > have an I-ness and thinks " I am Agni and this is what I do " . If he did not

> > have that I-ness, he would not do everything he does.

> > > >

> > > > Moreover, the 19 or 35 ideas of individualized consciousness do

> > interact with each other, whether we use the word " control " for some of

> > those interactions or not. For example, buddhi (intellectual/ discriminating

> > mind) judges various past experiences, interacts with manas (sensory-motor

> > mind) and tells it what to do. Then manas interacts with karmendriyas

> > (organs of action) and makes them do various things. My buddhi determined

> > what to write and my manas told my hands to type this and I ended up typing.

> > > >

> > > > Your point about " what exists as a part cannot be the whole " is totally

> > out of place. The sense of I-ness, the memories and conditioning, the

> > logical mind, the sensory-motor mind, karmendriyas etc are all different

> > parts of individualized consciousness and they play different roles while

> > interacting with each other in different ways. Some of those interactions

> > may be deemed to be controls.

> > > >

> > > > > Am not mixing up the terminologies, though my mail didn't

> > > > > go in details. Your understanding is flawed.

> > > > >

> > > > > 2. Where did you read this up ?

> > > >

> > > > One does not " read up " these things in a single place. There are

> > different abstractions and breakdowns of what happens in individualized

> > consciousness. There are several sources that speak of different aspects of

> > this knowledge in slightly different terms. One will assimilate this

> > knowledge better if one reads as many sources as possible and contemplates.

> > > >

> > > > Best regards,

> > > > Narasimha

> > > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -

> > > > Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ homam

> > > > Do Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ tarpana

> > > > Spirituality: http://groups. / group/vedic- wisdom

> > > > Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro. home.comcast. net

> > > > Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAst rologer.org

> > > > Jyotish writings: http://groups. / group/JyotishWri tings

> > > > Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagan nath.org

> > > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -

> > > >

> > > > ---- yeeahoo_99 <nitish.arya@ ...> wrote:

> > > > > || OM TAT SAT ||

> > > > > Dear Narasimha,

> > > > > Please Ignore my previous-mail, it was not completed - i will try to

> > delete it.

> > > > >

> > > > > Am not mixing up the terminologies, though my mail didn't go in

> > details. Your understanding is flawed.

> > > > >

> > > > > 1. All ideas including the idea of Ahamkara naturally belong to the

> > ideational or causal body, but Ahamkara must be overcome only in the

> > physical body (See point 5.). Astral or Causal-bodied beings (those without

> > a physical/astral body) don't have to fight with the idea of Ahamkara like

> > we do.

> > > > >

> > > > > > Ahamkaara/ego controls manas and buddhi also. When manas (sensory-

> > > > > > ...they are all guided by the sense of I-ness. That sense of I-ness

> >

> > > > > > permeates through all layers of one's individualized consciousness.

> > > > >

> > > > > 2. Where did you read this up ?

> > > > >

> > > > > There is a fine line between the sense of I-ness attributed to the

> > Individual Soul and the sense of I-ness derived through the idea of

> > Ahamkara. Even after a Soul is freed of the three bodies, the individuality

> > of the Soul Atom is not destroyed (Resurrection implies that), while it has

> > already given up the idea of Ahamkara including all other ideas.

> > > > >

> > > > > Individuality of a causal-bodied being is not due to the idea of

> > Ahamkara because " What exists as a part cannot be the whole " . Thus, the idea

> > of Ahamkara, being one of the 35 ideas of the Causal-body, doesn't account

> > for neither controls the rest of the 34 ideas. Each idea is independent of

> > another, without requiring another idea to act upon it - otherwise your

> > buddhi would always interfere with the functioning of Mind or Ahamkara or

> > the 5 functions of life-forces and so on.

> > > > >

> > > > > Essentially, the 35 ideas of causal body are the basic causal forces

> > and are not related as cause-effect to each other. Thus, each is independent

> > of the application of the sense of I-ness derived from Ahamkara. Manas and

> > Buddhi being two of the Causal-ideas, their functioning as well as existence

> > is not " controlled " nor " derived " in any way by the idea of Ahamkara. It is

> > very clear when we see those with sharpest Buddhi or Sharpest Mind still

> > carrying Heaviest Ahamkara, because they didn't work upon that particular

> > idea.

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > > But ego/ahamkaara/ I-ness is the very basis of the entire

> > > > > > individualized consciousness.

> > > > >

> > > > > 3. Well, as most Physical-bodied beings cannot see through the

> > Astral/causal cosmoses, it doesn't apply in the same way to the finer Astral

> > and Causal-bodied beings who can always pierce the veil of Maya and see the

> > human activities. Thus, what is " the very basis " of the entire

> > individualized consciousness for a physical-bodied (unenlightened) being is

> > not the same as for an astral/causal bodied being.

> > > > > An Astral-bodied being thinks of Manas/sense- consciousness as the

> > very basis of the entire individualized consciousness.

> > > > > A Causal-bodied being thinks of Chitta/perceptive- consciousness as

> > the very basis of the entire individualized consciousness.

> > > > > However, that individuality is of the Soul not derived from any idea,

> > which is why it is not lost when the Astral being loses astral consciousness

> > and reincarnates in the Physical body.

> > > > >

> > > > > As an example, Devatas, with their finer bodies, are able to work

> > through all the beings in all their physical-bodies simultaneously (like

> > Ganesh resides in the Mooladhara, Agni digests the food, and so on..), never

> > getting controlled by Ahamkara that would require them to say that this

> > particular body is " my body " or that one is mine - unless they incarnate in

> > Physical bodies themselves. Devatas are, however, Astral/Causal- bodied

> > beings, so they would attempt to influence the Manas (Spirit-Possession) of

> > the sense-bound worshipper. Pretas on the other hand, would attempt to

> > possess ones' physical body as well as act out their Ahamkara.

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > > Out of the four antahkaranas, chitta (remembering or conditioned

> > > > > > mind) and ahamkaara (ego or I-ness) are parts of the kaarana

> > > > > > sareera (causal body) and remain till the end.

> > > > >

> > > > > 4. As per the resurrected Soul of Sri Yukteswar in Autobiography of a

> > Yogi -

> > > > >

> > > > > Causal body is a matrix of 35 ideas, that include 19 ideas comprising

> > Astral body (Chitta, Manas, Buddhi, Ahamkara, 5 functions of knowledge, 5

> > functions of Action, 5 functions of life-force) and 16 ideas comprising

> > Physical body (16 chemical elements).

> > > > >

> > > > > Now, as we all know that Physical body expires as a whole, not just

> > one or two of the 16 elements comprising it go away at a time, Astral and

> > Causal bodies are also cast off as a whole in the corresponding cosmic

> > consciousness - instead of different constituent ideas slipping out of it at

> > different times. Chitta being the staging idea for all other modifications,

> > can be termed as the last to go, when the causal body is finally dropped -

> > hence I wrote as rising above Chitta.

> > > > >

> > > > > Thus, the idea of Ahamkara is bound with Gross Physical vibrations,

> > > > > Manas with Subtle Astral vibrations and

> > > > > Chitta with infinitely Subtle Causal Vibrations.

> > > > >

> > > > > Buddhi being another variable, can be developed or undeveloped

> > irrespective of the other 34. Even illiterate Moodha, through surrender to

> > their Guru, attain freedom from Ahamkara and so on...

> > > > >

> > > > > BTW, Chitta is not the Conditioned Mind. Chitta does store the

> > residual impressions of all the past incarnations. However, being

> > constituted of Satwa Guna, it doesn't have any inherent ability to act upon

> > (Rajas) those impressions, just like a container containing an inflammable

> > liquid doesn't automatically burn it down. Sadhana is required for That.

> > > > > The Samskaras stored by Chitta, including those of Nidra, Smriti,

> > Vikalpa, Viparyaya, Pramana, correspond to the Tamo Guna, while the Chitta

> > itself is Satva Guna - hence the " Satvic - Tamas " represents the SuperEther

> > tattwa (refer my previous mail). The all-perceiving Satvic Chitta doesn't

> > get conditioned by the Tamo-guni Samskaras it stores.

> > > > > Once the Chitta calms down, cleared of all residual impressions, only

> > Satva Guna remains, the intuition becomes coherent and the Soul reflects on

> > itself as distinct from Satva Guna of Prakriti (Chitta), thus realizing its

> > own nature as Brahman.

> > > > >

> > > > > 5.

> > > > > In Patanjali Yoga Sutras:

> > > > > drigadarshanaktyore katmataivasmita -6

> > > > > Egoism is the identification of the seer with the instrument of

> > seeing. Patanjali has used Asmita instead of Ahamkara.

> > > > > Since astral-bodied beings can use any of the senses like eyes to

> > see, hear, smell, taste and so on (refer Autobiography of a Yogi)... the

> > sense of egoism does not take roots in the astral-body and hence doesn't

> > create Astral Karma. Similarly, Causal bodied beings can use thought to

> > sense everything.

> > > > >

> > > > > Hence, Egotism has to be rooted out while the consciousness is

> > associated with the Physical Body sensory activities or has Physical Karma.

> > > > >

> > > > > 6. The idea of Manas, as the controller of sense-consciousness , must

> > be overcome in Astral body, through Vairagya. Read autobiography of a Yogi

> > (chapter 43) where Sri Yukteswar illustrates that only those beings who

> > cannot be tempted to go back to the pleasing to the eye Astral cosmos are

> > permitted to stay permanently in the Causal cosmos. Pleasing to the eye

> > implies Sense-consciousness which is associated with Manas.

> > > > >

> > > > > In Patanjali Yoga Sutras also it is mentioned in the same manner :

> > > > >

> > > > > dristanushravika vishaya vitrishnasya vashikara samjnavairagyam -15-

> > > > >

> > > > > That effect which comes to these who have given up their thirst after

> > objects, either seen or heard, and which wills to control the objects, is

> > non-attachment. Vivekananda has commented that Vairagya is the only way to

> > freedom.

> > > > >

> > > > > This is to be accomplished by transferring the consciousness to

> > Astral-Body and working out the Astral Karma or otherwise as an

> > astral-bodied being.

> > > > >

> > > > > 7. Patanjali Yoga Sutras:

> > > > > yogashchittavrittin irodhah -2-

> > > > > Thus, extinguishing all the movements of Chitta is called " Yoga " .

> > > > >

> > > > > This is to be accomplished by transferring the consciousness to

> > Causal-Body and working out the Causal Karma or otherwise as a causal-bodied

> > being.

> > > > >

> > > > > I hope this clarifies.

> > > > >

> > > > > Regards,

> > > > > Nitish

> > > > >

> > > > > , Narasimha PVR Rao <pvr@>

> > wrote:

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Namaste Nitish,

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I am afraid you are mixing up terminologies. For example, ego or

> > ahamkaara (sense of I-ness) is not limited to the physical body, but extends

> > to subtle body and causal body as well. In fact, ego resides in the causal

> > body and affects other bodies. Out of the four antahkaranas, chitta

> > (remembering or conditioned mind) and ahamkaara (ego or I-ness) are parts of

> > the kaarana sareera (causal body) and remain till the end.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Ahamkaara/ego controls manas and buddhi also. When manas

> > (sensory-motor mind) observes sensory inputs or buddhi (intellectual or

> > thinking mind) analyzes current and past observations of mind or chitta

> > (remembering or conditioned mind) stores various observations or retrieves

> > previously stored observations, they are all guided by the sense of I-ness.

> > That sense of I-ness permeates through all layers of one's individualized

> > consciousness.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Upanishads and various scriptures have broken down the

> > individualized consciousness into various groups by functionality, like five

> > koshas, three sareeras, five praanas, five jnaanendriyas, five karmendriyas,

> > four antahkaranas, six/seven chakras etc. But ego/ahamkaara/ I-ness is the

> > very basis of the entire individualized consciousness.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Though the word jnaana means different things to different people,

> > a jnaana yogi pursues Self by the path of contemplation and discrimination.

> > When a jnaana yogi reaches the final target, all bodies and koshas are

> > merged in cosmos.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Best regards,

> > > > > > Narasimha

> > > > > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -

> > > > > > Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ homam

> > > > > > Do Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/tarpana

> > > > > > Spirituality: http://groups. / group/vedic- wisdom

> > > > > > Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro. home.comcast. net

> > > > > > Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAst rologer.org

> > > > > > Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagan nath.org

> > > > > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -

> > > > > >

> > > > > > ---- yeeahoo_99 <nitish.arya@ > wrote:

> > > > > > > || OM TAT SAT ||

> > > > > > > Dear Narasimha,

> > > > > > > In my opinion, there are three distinct phases that lead the

> > sould to rise above Ego, Mind and Chitta - corresponding to the three bodies

> > physical (Sthoola), astral (Sookshma) and causal (Karana) resp.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Rising above Ego is Jnana - Merging Physical body in Physical

> > cosmos

> > > > > > > Rising above Mind is Vairagya - Merging Astral body in Astral

> > cosmos

> > > > > > > Rising above Chitta is Yoga - Merging Causal body in Causal

> > cosmos

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Finally, becoming established in Para-Brahman is YogaArudha.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Your comments.

> > > > > > > Regards,

> > > > > > > Nitish

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > , " Narasimha P.V.R. Rao "

> > <pvr@> wrote:

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Namaste,

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Gyaani or jnaani is a wise and learned person, who may or may

> > not debate (or even engage) with others. One may become a gyaani using

> > either gyaana yoga or bhakti yoga or karma yoga or raaja yoga.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Gyaana/jnaana yoga is a path of pursuing the Supreme through

> > intellectual analysis. One pursuing that path may or may not debate with

> > others and may or may not read many scriptures, but one will analyze and

> > debate within oneself. One starts with the basic axioms (e.g. Self is

> > imperishable and without a beginning or an end). One will go on eliminating

> > things that one is aware of as not being Self. For example, body has a

> > beginning and end and is perishable. So it is not Self. One introspects like

> > this and, though the process of elimination, finally finds the true Self.

> > That is gyaana yoga. Pure gyaana yoga is very difficult to follow in this

> > age.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Vichaara (contemplation) is the process of sadhana for an

> > adherer of pure gyaana yoga.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > However, the gyaana (knowledge of Self) achieved by such a

> > person at the end is not really different from the knowledge of Self

> > achieved by a person following another path.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Best regards,

> > > > > > > > Narasimha

> > > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > Try the new India Homepage.

> > http://in./trynew

> > >

> >

> >

> >

>

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Namaste Nitishji:

 

If I may ask you humbly, are you writing all of this

from the depth of your personal experience or by synthesizing

what has been written by others. Since joining this group

many of us have been inspired by the personal spiritual accounts

of a few. If you could share yours, it would be all the more

inspiring to us.

 

Regards!

 

, " yeeahoo_99 " <nitish.arya wrote:

>

> || OM TAT SAT ||

> Dear Utpalji and Narasimha,

>

> If any of you is offended due to my being explicit with words - it also

shows that you people have a lot of scope in learning of new ideas!

>

> > The second statement says something radical. Ahamkaara and I Ness

> > is completely two different identity.

> > your second statment is a departure from almost every Gnyaani has

> > to say.

>

> It is none of my fault that this conflict arose and continues. Here is the

reason.

>

> In my first mail (#2704) itself it is explicitly written, that Patanjali

has used the exact word " asmita " for Egoism - which is the I-ness (Ahamkara) in

Physical body consciousness - that causes identification of the seer with the

instrument of seeing i.e. Physical senses.

>

> > In Patanjali Yoga Sutras:

> > drigadarshanaktyorekatmataivasmita -6

> > Egoism is the identification of the seer with the instrument of

> > seeing.

>

> >>> Patanjali has used Asmita instead of Ahamkara.

>

>

> PATANJALI has not used the word AHAMKARA anywhere in his PRECISE AND

ESTEEMED sanskrit dissertation on YOGA - he has chosen to use the word ASMITA

everywhere. E.g.

>

> 1. vitarka vicharanandasmita rupanugamat samprajnatah -

>

> SASMITA SAMADHI

>

> 2. From Lahiri Mahasayas' Commentary on Patanjali -

>

> avidyasmitaragadveshabhinibeshah panchakleshah

>

> " Avidya " [ignorance], " asmita " [egotism], " raga " [attraction or

> liking], " dvesha " [hatred or disliking] and " abhinibesha " [engrossment] --

these are the five types of afflictions.

>

> Thus, using " Ahamkara " while talking about Sankhya and using " Asmita " while

talking about Patanjali Sutras brought in the conflict. In any case, what is

called as Ahamkara in 24 principles of Sankhya is actually Asmita, which can be

very-loosely pitted as Ahamkara.

>

> The idea stated by me was on firm grounds - with reference to Patanjali

Sutras and the words of Sri Yukteswar in Autobiography of a Yogi. And this idea

is there in my first mail, though not the exact table:

>

> PHYSICAL I-NESS (AHAMKARA) = ASMITA = Physical Egotism

> ASTRAL I-NESS (AHAMKARA) = MANAS = Astral attachments

> CAUSAL I-NESS (AHAMKARA) = CHITTA = Causal Perceptions

>

> Also, one of the 2 reasons that I had given on why Astral/Causal Body beings

don't have sense of Asmita as a dominant sense of I-ness is this:

>

> > Since astral-bodied beings can use any of the senses like eyes to

> > see, hear, smell, taste and so on (refer Autobiography of a

> > Yogi)... the sense of egoism does not take roots in the astral-body > and

hence doesn't create Astral Karma.

> > Similarly, Causal bodied beings can use thought to sense everything.

>

> > Hence, Egotism has to be rooted out while the consciousness is

> > associated with the Physical Body sensory activities or has

> > Physical Karma.

>

> Lastly, extending upon this idea further, there are beings in the Astral

cosmos who have never been in Physical forms - We Physical beings are not the

only ones in the cycles of creation. While they will still have the idea of

" Asmita " in their causal bodies, but they will always be repelled by the

grosser-vibrations of Sensual experiences in Physical Bodies/Cosmos, and hence

would not incur any Physical Karma due to " Asmita " .

>

> --------------------------------

> [ TO ALL IN THE LIST ]

> - If the above explanation resolves the issue, well and good. Whether it

does or doesn't, this is my last mail on this topic because I had said all I had

to in the first mail itself - whether you read it or missed it.

> You may read a detailed article on this topic that I will write as and when

time allows me to do so.

>

>

> [ TO UTPALJI ]

> - Am not a jnani.

> But there are Jnanis, who know that 6th tattwa doesn't exist.

> That is why there is a significant departure.

>

> [ TO NARASIMHA ]

>

> > So you are accepting that there as " I-ness of manas " and " I-ness of >

chitta " . I-ness=aham-kaara.

>

> There was never a time that I didn't, and I have no control over what

meaning you derive from my words.

>

> > I still think this is a case of a Pascal language programmer

> > unfamiliar with C language misunderstanding some software written

> > in C language and passing comments. But unfortunately that

> > programmer seems to be hasty in using labels like " flawed " ,

> > " incorrect " , " incoherent " etc about other programmers whose

> > language he is unable to understand.

>

> The power of mind needs no language to express itself...If a Programmer

just understands this much, he will become the Architect!

> Also, while a Programmer always assumes that every other person he

encounters is a Programmer, an Architect knows that every other person is an

Architect in making. Hope you become an Architect one day!

>

> Regards,

> Nitish

>

> , " vedic_pathak " <vedic_pathak@> wrote:

> >

> > Namaste Nitish ji,

> >

> > >Ahamkara is an idea in Causal-body, so it is present all the time >till the

> > >soul is freed of the three body containers.

> >

> >

> > > " Ahamkara isn't the dominant cause of I-ness in Astral/Causal >bodies "

> >

> > I am not getting your point here. you agree in the above given first

statement that Ahamkaara is an Idea present in all three bodies and remains TILL

the soul is freed from all the three containers.

> >

> > The second statement says something radical. Ahamkaara and I Ness is

completely two different identity.

> >

> > your second statment is a departure from almost every Gnyaani has to say.

> >

> > I pray...you please clarify your understanding of Ahamkaara and I Ness.

> >

> > looking forward to explanation of the above.

> >

> > Thanks & Regards,

> >

> > Utpal

> >

> >

> >

> > , " yeeahoo_99 " <nitish.arya@> wrote:

> > >

> > > || OM TAT SAT ||

> > > Namaskar Rajarshi,

> > >

> > > Thanks for your contribution - all you have done is to prove what is

already known.

> > >

> > > > Therefore, Ahamkara exists even in beyond the death for a normal

> > > > human being. Therewfore, Ahamkara is present in the astral/casual

> > > > plane as well.

> > >

> > > 1. Do you realize what is being talked about and what you have ended up

proving ? Wherein did I deny that Ahamkara is not present in Astral/Causal

bodies ?

> > >

> > > Ahamkara is an idea in Causal-body, so it is present all the time till

the soul is freed of the three body containers.

> > >

> > > 2. OTOH, What I have stated, with reference to Patanjali Sutras, is that

Ahamkara is " SUPPRESSED " in Astral and Causal bodies. Meaning

> > >

> > > " Ahamkara isn't the dominant cause of I-ness in Astral/Causal bodies "

> > >

> > > And as a result wouldn't contribute to the acquisition of Astral/Causal

Karma.

> > >

> > > Why is Ahamkara not dominant in Astral/Causal bodies ?

> > > The reason I have already given in the first mail in sufficient detail.

> > >

> > > IF THE AHAMKARA IS NOT SUPPRESSED AFTER PHYSICAL DEATH, THE PERSON WILL

KEEP CARRYING THE SAME EARTHLY IDENTITY TO THE ASTRAL PLANES, AND BRING IT BACK

AT REBIRTH TO THE EARTH. AND THEN, HE WILL RECLAIM HIS LOST TERRITORY AND WEALTH

- THE CONFLICTS THAT WILL ARISE WILL BE BEYOND ANYBODY'S CONTROL.

> > > THUS, THE BEAUTIFUL ASTRAL SPHERE ARE SENSED BY THE I-NESS OF MANAS,

while CAUSAL SPHERE ARE SENSED BY THE I-NESS OF CHITTA.

> > >

> > > Please read more of " Sri Sri Paramahansa Yogananda " , he has mentioned

about all these things (what happens to a soul at death and so on) in such a

simplistic manner in his Gita commentaries, that even a layman can understand

it.

> > >

> > > Regards,

> > > Nitish

> > >

> > > , rajarshi nandy <rajarshi14@> wrote:

> > > >

> > > > Namaste

> > > >  

> > > > Proof by Contradiction

> > > > A person who lives as a farmer, should, after death, remain a farmer in

the astral cosmos, and after subsequent astral death, should be reborn as the

same farmer with the same name and same identity as in his previous earthly

incarnation.

> > > >  

> > > > Wrong example.

> > > >  

> > > > A person after his death, depending on his tendencies in this life and

level of spiritual evolution will retain some aspects of his personality, which

means a person who loves music intensely will also in his next birth have an

affinity for music. The conditions of the birth and inbetween period depends

both on his inherent samaskaras as well the karmic repurcussion. It not, never,

entirely once choice. It a mix and match between what one wants and what one

deserves. IN all cases, to be able to retain the samskara Ahamakara is needed.

Therefore, Ahamkara exists even in beyond the death for a normal human being.

Therewfore, Ahamkara is present in the astral/casual plane as well.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > Corollary #1:

> > > > A Devata as an Astral-being has I-ness due to his Manas, and doesn't

have Ahamkara for the work done by him in all the various physical bodies.

> > > >

> > > >  

> > > > This example becomse invalid since the analysis of the first example

itself in incorrect.

> > > >  

> > > > -Regards

> > > >  Rajarshi

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > The upsurge (of consciousness) is Bhairava - Shiva Sutra

> > > >

> > > > --- On Sun, 4/10/09, yeeahoo_99 <nitish.arya@> wrote:

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > yeeahoo_99 <nitish.arya@>

> > > > Re: Gyan Marga

> > > >

> > > > Sunday, 4 October, 2009, 9:40 AM

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >  

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > || OM TAT SAT ||

> > > > Dear Narasimha and Sundeep,

> > > >

> > > > Thanks for your feedback. I thought, I had written a quite clear and

explicit mail, but your reply has proved that it needs to be put down in at

least 10-fold simpler words.

> > > >

> > > > You read my mail, but picked up notions in an incorrect, incoherent

manner, and are reading beyond what is written in my mail.

> > > >

> > > > To prove my point, I would ask Sundeep to read my previous mail on " Gyan

Marg " followed by your reply and see if he also picks up the notions in the same

manner as you did ?

> > > >

> > > > The only addition required is an example:

> > > >

> > > > Your hypothesis

> > > > Ahamkara is the only I-ness there is for all the beings in all the 3

cosmoses i.e. all the Physical, Astral and Causal-bodied beings.

> > > >

> > > > Proof by Contradiction

> > > > A person who lives as a farmer, should, after death, remain a farmer in

the astral cosmos, and after subsequent astral death, should be reborn as the

same farmer with the same name and same identity as in his previous earthly

incarnation.

> > > > This is not the case, people don't even remember what they were in

previous birth, and start their life afresh in a new earthly body

> > > > => Contradiction

> > > > => the original hypothesis is wrong

> > > > => Ahamkara is not the only sense of I-ness applicable to all beings in

all the 3 cosmoses.

> > > >

> > > > Inference #1:

> > > > => Ahamkara is dominant sense of I-ness in Physical Cosmos.

> > > > => Manas is dominant sense of I-ness in Astral Cosmos.

> > > > => Chitta is dominant sense of I-ness in Causal Cosmos.

> > > >

> > > > Corollary #1:

> > > > A Devata as an Astral-being has I-ness due to his Manas, and doesn't

have Ahamkara for the work done by him in all the various physical bodies.

> > > >

> > > > Inference #1 and Corollary #1 is what I had written in my previous mail

on this topic.

> > > >

> > > > There are many other ways to prove the contradiction on this hypothesis

(e.g. Powers of beings in physical cosmos < those in astral cosmos < those in

causal cosmos).

> > > >

> > > > Your made two additional points that are also invalid. My comments on

that is:

> > > >

> > > > 1. I-ness derived from Ahamkara,Manas and Chitta has no innate power to

Control any other idea of the 35 Causal-ideas.

> > > > Reason:

> > > > Soul is the only Truth and controller, everything else has an unreal and

derived existence. Thus, all the 35 ideas co-ordinate with each other, and not

control each other.

> > > >

> > > > 2. A new-born child or a person in Hypnotic-Trance, is able to use his

sense-consciousness coherently due to the astral-bodys' sense of I-ness derived

from Manas, that coordinates the senses.

> > > > He has no Buddhi or discriminating faculty to interact with manas

(sensory-motor mind) and tell it what to do - as you have proposed. Thus, Manas

co-ordinates the senses due to its own sense of I-ness, not due to Buddhi.

> > > >

> > > > I hope this clarifies.

> > > >

> > > > Regards,

> > > > Nitish

> > > >

> > > > , Narasimha PVR Rao <pvr@> wrote:

> > > > >

> > > > > Namaste,

> > > > >

> > > > > Out of the 19 or 35 attributes of individualized consciousness, which

one gives the idea " I am this " or " I am that " ? Of course, it is ahamkaraka or

I-ness or egosense or ego principle!

> > > > >

> > > > > Is one's idea of " I am this " limited to a physical body? Of course

not! If someone says " so and so person is a terrible person " , one may feel

offended or if someone says " so and so person is a great person " , one may feel

elated. One's ahamkara or I-ness is identifying with the criticism or praise,

even though nothing is being done to the physical body and only a name is being

used. When somebody calls one by name from distance (as opposed to patting on

the physical body and calling), one's consciousness may still think " I am being

called " and one may turn towards the caller. As in these examples, one's I-ness

does of course bind itself to more than a body.

> > > > >

> > > > > Suppose one gets a dream while sleeping. One may have forgotten

totally about the physical body in the dream! One may think of something else as

" I " . In dreams, one may see oneself as a different body or may not even " see "

onself, but still one may have the sense that so and so thing is happening to

" me " . So, even when the mind is drawn away from the physical body, there is

still a notion of " I am this " (I-ness) in a dream. That is ahamkara or I-ness or

ego principle.

> > > > >

> > > > > Your idea that ahamkara is limited to physical body is absolutely

unacceptable. Ahamkara or I-ness extends beyond the physical body.

> > > > >

> > > > > Also, your idea that deities like Agni do not have ahamkara (I-ness)

because they do not have physical bodies is incorrect. Of course, Agni does have

an I-ness and thinks " I am Agni and this is what I do " . If he did not have that

I-ness, he would not do everything he does.

> > > > >

> > > > > Moreover, the 19 or 35 ideas of individualized consciousness do

interact with each other, whether we use the word " control " for some of those

interactions or not. For example, buddhi (intellectual/ discriminating mind)

judges various past experiences, interacts with manas (sensory-motor mind) and

tells it what to do. Then manas interacts with karmendriyas (organs of action)

and makes them do various things. My buddhi determined what to write and my

manas told my hands to type this and I ended up typing.

> > > > >

> > > > > Your point about " what exists as a part cannot be the whole " is

totally out of place. The sense of I-ness, the memories and conditioning, the

logical mind, the sensory-motor mind, karmendriyas etc are all different parts

of individualized consciousness and they play different roles while interacting

with each other in different ways. Some of those interactions may be deemed to

be controls.

> > > > >

> > > > > > Am not mixing up the terminologies, though my mail didn't

> > > > > > go in details. Your understanding is flawed.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > 2. Where did you read this up ?

> > > > >

> > > > > One does not " read up " these things in a single place. There are

different abstractions and breakdowns of what happens in individualized

consciousness. There are several sources that speak of different aspects of this

knowledge in slightly different terms. One will assimilate this knowledge better

if one reads as many sources as possible and contemplates.

> > > > >

> > > > > Best regards,

> > > > > Narasimha

> > > > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -

> > > > > Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ homam

> > > > > Do Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ tarpana

> > > > > Spirituality: http://groups. / group/vedic- wisdom

> > > > > Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro. home.comcast. net

> > > > > Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAst rologer.org

> > > > > Jyotish writings: http://groups. / group/JyotishWri tings

> > > > > Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagan nath.org

> > > > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -

> > > > >

> > > > > ---- yeeahoo_99 <nitish.arya@ ...> wrote:

> > > > > > || OM TAT SAT ||

> > > > > > Dear Narasimha,

> > > > > > Please Ignore my previous-mail, it was not completed - i will try to

delete it.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Am not mixing up the terminologies, though my mail didn't go in

details. Your understanding is flawed.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > 1. All ideas including the idea of Ahamkara naturally belong to the

ideational or causal body, but Ahamkara must be overcome only in the physical

body (See point 5.). Astral or Causal-bodied beings (those without a

physical/astral body) don't have to fight with the idea of Ahamkara like we do.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > > Ahamkaara/ego controls manas and buddhi also. When manas (sensory-

> > > > > > > ...they are all guided by the sense of I-ness. That sense of

I-ness

> > > > > > > permeates through all layers of one's individualized

consciousness.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > 2. Where did you read this up ?

> > > > > >

> > > > > > There is a fine line between the sense of I-ness attributed to the

Individual Soul and the sense of I-ness derived through the idea of Ahamkara.

Even after a Soul is freed of the three bodies, the individuality of the Soul

Atom is not destroyed (Resurrection implies that), while it has already given up

the idea of Ahamkara including all other ideas.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Individuality of a causal-bodied being is not due to the idea of

Ahamkara because " What exists as a part cannot be the whole " . Thus, the idea of

Ahamkara, being one of the 35 ideas of the Causal-body, doesn't account for

neither controls the rest of the 34 ideas. Each idea is independent of another,

without requiring another idea to act upon it - otherwise your buddhi would

always interfere with the functioning of Mind or Ahamkara or the 5 functions of

life-forces and so on.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Essentially, the 35 ideas of causal body are the basic causal forces

and are not related as cause-effect to each other. Thus, each is independent of

the application of the sense of I-ness derived from Ahamkara. Manas and Buddhi

being two of the Causal-ideas, their functioning as well as existence is not

" controlled " nor " derived " in any way by the idea of Ahamkara. It is very clear

when we see those with sharpest Buddhi or Sharpest Mind still carrying Heaviest

Ahamkara, because they didn't work upon that particular idea.

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > > But ego/ahamkaara/ I-ness is the very basis of the entire

> > > > > > > individualized consciousness.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > 3. Well, as most Physical-bodied beings cannot see through the

Astral/causal cosmoses, it doesn't apply in the same way to the finer Astral and

Causal-bodied beings who can always pierce the veil of Maya and see the human

activities. Thus, what is " the very basis " of the entire individualized

consciousness for a physical-bodied (unenlightened) being is not the same as for

an astral/causal bodied being.

> > > > > > An Astral-bodied being thinks of Manas/sense- consciousness as the

very basis of the entire individualized consciousness.

> > > > > > A Causal-bodied being thinks of Chitta/perceptive- consciousness as

the very basis of the entire individualized consciousness.

> > > > > > However, that individuality is of the Soul not derived from any

idea, which is why it is not lost when the Astral being loses astral

consciousness and reincarnates in the Physical body.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > As an example, Devatas, with their finer bodies, are able to work

through all the beings in all their physical-bodies simultaneously (like Ganesh

resides in the Mooladhara, Agni digests the food, and so on..), never getting

controlled by Ahamkara that would require them to say that this particular body

is " my body " or that one is mine - unless they incarnate in Physical bodies

themselves. Devatas are, however, Astral/Causal- bodied beings, so they would

attempt to influence the Manas (Spirit-Possession) of the sense-bound

worshipper. Pretas on the other hand, would attempt to possess ones' physical

body as well as act out their Ahamkara.

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > > Out of the four antahkaranas, chitta (remembering or conditioned

> > > > > > > mind) and ahamkaara (ego or I-ness) are parts of the kaarana

> > > > > > > sareera (causal body) and remain till the end.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > 4. As per the resurrected Soul of Sri Yukteswar in Autobiography of

a Yogi -

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Causal body is a matrix of 35 ideas, that include 19 ideas

comprising Astral body (Chitta, Manas, Buddhi, Ahamkara, 5 functions of

knowledge, 5 functions of Action, 5 functions of life-force) and 16 ideas

comprising Physical body (16 chemical elements).

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Now, as we all know that Physical body expires as a whole, not just

one or two of the 16 elements comprising it go away at a time, Astral and Causal

bodies are also cast off as a whole in the corresponding cosmic consciousness -

instead of different constituent ideas slipping out of it at different times.

Chitta being the staging idea for all other modifications, can be termed as the

last to go, when the causal body is finally dropped - hence I wrote as rising

above Chitta.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Thus, the idea of Ahamkara is bound with Gross Physical vibrations,

> > > > > > Manas with Subtle Astral vibrations and

> > > > > > Chitta with infinitely Subtle Causal Vibrations.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Buddhi being another variable, can be developed or undeveloped

irrespective of the other 34. Even illiterate Moodha, through surrender to their

Guru, attain freedom from Ahamkara and so on...

> > > > > >

> > > > > > BTW, Chitta is not the Conditioned Mind. Chitta does store the

residual impressions of all the past incarnations. However, being constituted of

Satwa Guna, it doesn't have any inherent ability to act upon (Rajas) those

impressions, just like a container containing an inflammable liquid doesn't

automatically burn it down. Sadhana is required for That.

> > > > > > The Samskaras stored by Chitta, including those of Nidra, Smriti,

Vikalpa, Viparyaya, Pramana, correspond to the Tamo Guna, while the Chitta

itself is Satva Guna - hence the " Satvic - Tamas " represents the SuperEther

tattwa (refer my previous mail). The all-perceiving Satvic Chitta doesn't get

conditioned by the Tamo-guni Samskaras it stores.

> > > > > > Once the Chitta calms down, cleared of all residual impressions,

only Satva Guna remains, the intuition becomes coherent and the Soul reflects on

itself as distinct from Satva Guna of Prakriti (Chitta), thus realizing its own

nature as Brahman.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > 5.

> > > > > > In Patanjali Yoga Sutras:

> > > > > > drigadarshanaktyore katmataivasmita -6

> > > > > > Egoism is the identification of the seer with the instrument of

seeing. Patanjali has used Asmita instead of Ahamkara.

> > > > > > Since astral-bodied beings can use any of the senses like eyes to

see, hear, smell, taste and so on (refer Autobiography of a Yogi)... the sense

of egoism does not take roots in the astral-body and hence doesn't create Astral

Karma. Similarly, Causal bodied beings can use thought to sense everything.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Hence, Egotism has to be rooted out while the consciousness is

associated with the Physical Body sensory activities or has Physical Karma.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > 6. The idea of Manas, as the controller of sense-consciousness ,

must be overcome in Astral body, through Vairagya. Read autobiography of a Yogi

(chapter 43) where Sri Yukteswar illustrates that only those beings who cannot

be tempted to go back to the pleasing to the eye Astral cosmos are permitted to

stay permanently in the Causal cosmos. Pleasing to the eye implies

Sense-consciousness which is associated with Manas.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > In Patanjali Yoga Sutras also it is mentioned in the same manner :

> > > > > >

> > > > > > dristanushravika vishaya vitrishnasya vashikara samjnavairagyam -15-

> > > > > >

> > > > > > That effect which comes to these who have given up their thirst

after objects, either seen or heard, and which wills to control the objects, is

non-attachment. Vivekananda has commented that Vairagya is the only way to

freedom.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > This is to be accomplished by transferring the consciousness to

Astral-Body and working out the Astral Karma or otherwise as an astral-bodied

being.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > 7. Patanjali Yoga Sutras:

> > > > > > yogashchittavrittin irodhah -2-

> > > > > > Thus, extinguishing all the movements of Chitta is called " Yoga " .

> > > > > >

> > > > > > This is to be accomplished by transferring the consciousness to

Causal-Body and working out the Causal Karma or otherwise as a causal-bodied

being.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I hope this clarifies.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Regards,

> > > > > > Nitish

> > > > > >

> > > > > > , Narasimha PVR Rao <pvr@>

wrote:

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Namaste Nitish,

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > I am afraid you are mixing up terminologies. For example, ego or

ahamkaara (sense of I-ness) is not limited to the physical body, but extends to

subtle body and causal body as well. In fact, ego resides in the causal body and

affects other bodies. Out of the four antahkaranas, chitta (remembering or

conditioned mind) and ahamkaara (ego or I-ness) are parts of the kaarana sareera

(causal body) and remain till the end.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Ahamkaara/ego controls manas and buddhi also. When manas

(sensory-motor mind) observes sensory inputs or buddhi (intellectual or thinking

mind) analyzes current and past observations of mind or chitta (remembering or

conditioned mind) stores various observations or retrieves previously stored

observations, they are all guided by the sense of I-ness. That sense of I-ness

permeates through all layers of one's individualized consciousness.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Upanishads and various scriptures have broken down the

individualized consciousness into various groups by functionality, like five

koshas, three sareeras, five praanas, five jnaanendriyas, five karmendriyas,

four antahkaranas, six/seven chakras etc. But ego/ahamkaara/ I-ness is the very

basis of the entire individualized consciousness.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Though the word jnaana means different things to different people,

a jnaana yogi pursues Self by the path of contemplation and discrimination. When

a jnaana yogi reaches the final target, all bodies and koshas are merged in

cosmos.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Best regards,

> > > > > > > Narasimha

> > > > > > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -

> > > > > > > Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ homam

> > > > > > > Do Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/

tarpana

> > > > > > > Spirituality: http://groups. / group/vedic- wisdom

> > > > > > > Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro. home.comcast. net

> > > > > > > Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAst rologer.org

> > > > > > > Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagan nath.org

> > > > > > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > ---- yeeahoo_99 <nitish.arya@ > wrote:

> > > > > > > > || OM TAT SAT ||

> > > > > > > > Dear Narasimha,

> > > > > > > > In my opinion, there are three distinct phases that lead the

sould to rise above Ego, Mind and Chitta - corresponding to the three bodies

physical (Sthoola), astral (Sookshma) and causal (Karana) resp.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Rising above Ego is Jnana - Merging Physical body in Physical

cosmos

> > > > > > > > Rising above Mind is Vairagya - Merging Astral body in Astral

cosmos

> > > > > > > > Rising above Chitta is Yoga - Merging Causal body in Causal

cosmos

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Finally, becoming established in Para-Brahman is YogaArudha.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Your comments.

> > > > > > > > Regards,

> > > > > > > > Nitish

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > , " Narasimha P.V.R. Rao "

<pvr@> wrote:

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Namaste,

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Gyaani or jnaani is a wise and learned person, who may or may

not debate (or even engage) with others. One may become a gyaani using either

gyaana yoga or bhakti yoga or karma yoga or raaja yoga.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Gyaana/jnaana yoga is a path of pursuing the Supreme through

intellectual analysis. One pursuing that path may or may not debate with others

and may or may not read many scriptures, but one will analyze and debate within

oneself. One starts with the basic axioms (e.g. Self is imperishable and without

a beginning or an end). One will go on eliminating things that one is aware of

as not being Self. For example, body has a beginning and end and is perishable.

So it is not Self. One introspects like this and, though the process of

elimination, finally finds the true Self. That is gyaana yoga. Pure gyaana yoga

is very difficult to follow in this age.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Vichaara (contemplation) is the process of sadhana for an

adherer of pure gyaana yoga.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > However, the gyaana (knowledge of Self) achieved by such a

person at the end is not really different from the knowledge of Self achieved by

a person following another path.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Best regards,

> > > > > > > > > Narasimha

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

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> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > Try the new India Homepage.

http://in./trynew

> > > >

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Namaste,

 

This is excellent - your terminology seems to be evolving and getting refined

now. At one stage, you said " Ahamkara isn't the dominant cause of I-ness in

Astral/Causal bodies " , while I was saying ahamkara=I-ness. Now, you wrote:

 

> PHYSICAL I-NESS (AHAMKARA) = ASMITA = Physical Egotism

> ASTRAL I-NESS (AHAMKARA) = MANAS = Astral attachments

> CAUSAL I-NESS (AHAMKARA) = CHITTA = Causal Perceptions

 

So you are acknowledging that I-ness and ahamkara are synonyms and referring to

ahamkara at astral and causal planes. It is good that you are slowly converging!

 

* * *

 

I did not want to divert from the upanishadic terminology of 19 ideas of

individualized consciousness. So I stuck to the term ahamkaara and ignored your

references to Patanjali. Now that there is some convergence on " ahamkaara " , let

me address " asmita " mentioned in Patanjali yoga sutras.

 

> identification of the seer with the instrument of

> seeing i.e. Physical senses.

 

You are assuming that physical senses or physical body is the only instrument of

seeing (or experiencing).

 

However, mind can see, hear, feel and experience things even when it is not

working with a physical body and physical senses. For example, one's mind may

" see " something in a dream without the physical eyes seeing anything.

 

Also, a yogi in deep meditation may see, hear, feel or experience something

without the involvement of eyes, ears and other physical senses.

 

If such a yogi identifies with the instrument of that experience, i.e. the mind,

that too is asmita as per Patanjali's yoga sutra that you quoted. Just as I had

an issue earlier with your limiting of ahamkaara to physical body, I also have

an issue with your limiting of asmita to physical body.

 

BTW, identification with physical body *as well as* identification with mind

block one from yoga (communion) with true Self. Both are due to ahamkaara as

defined by upanishads. Both are due to asmita as defined by Patanjali.

 

Best regards,

Narasimha

 

Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAstrologer.org/homam

Do Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAstrologer.org/tarpana

Spirituality:

Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro.home.comcast.net

Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAstrologer.org

Jyotish writings: JyotishWritings

Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagannath.org

 

 

---- yeeahoo_99 <nitish.arya wrote:

> || OM TAT SAT ||

> Dear Utpalji and Narasimha,

>

> If any of you is offended due to my being explicit with words - it also

shows that you people have a lot of scope in learning of new ideas!

>

> > The second statement says something radical. Ahamkaara and I Ness

> > is completely two different identity.

> > your second statment is a departure from almost every Gnyaani has

> > to say.

>

> It is none of my fault that this conflict arose and continues. Here is the

reason.

>

> In my first mail (#2704) itself it is explicitly written, that Patanjali

has used the exact word " asmita " for Egoism - which is the I-ness (Ahamkara) in

Physical body consciousness - that causes identification of the seer with the

instrument of seeing i.e. Physical senses.

>

> > In Patanjali Yoga Sutras:

> > drigadarshanaktyorekatmataivasmita -6

> > Egoism is the identification of the seer with the instrument of

> > seeing.

>

> >>> Patanjali has used Asmita instead of Ahamkara.

>

>

> PATANJALI has not used the word AHAMKARA anywhere in his PRECISE AND

ESTEEMED sanskrit dissertation on YOGA - he has chosen to use the word ASMITA

everywhere. E.g.

>

> 1. vitarka vicharanandasmita rupanugamat samprajnatah -

>

> SASMITA SAMADHI

>

> 2. From Lahiri Mahasayas' Commentary on Patanjali -

>

> avidyasmitaragadveshabhinibeshah panchakleshah

>

> " Avidya " [ignorance], " asmita " [egotism], " raga " [attraction or

> liking], " dvesha " [hatred or disliking] and " abhinibesha " [engrossment] --

these are the five types of afflictions.

>

> Thus, using " Ahamkara " while talking about Sankhya and using " Asmita " while

talking about Patanjali Sutras brought in the conflict. In any case, what is

called as Ahamkara in 24 principles of Sankhya is actually Asmita, which can be

very-loosely pitted as Ahamkara.

>

> The idea stated by me was on firm grounds - with reference to Patanjali

Sutras and the words of Sri Yukteswar in Autobiography of a Yogi. And this idea

is there in my first mail, though not the exact table:

>

> PHYSICAL I-NESS (AHAMKARA) = ASMITA = Physical Egotism

> ASTRAL I-NESS (AHAMKARA) = MANAS = Astral attachments

> CAUSAL I-NESS (AHAMKARA) = CHITTA = Causal Perceptions

>

> Also, one of the 2 reasons that I had given on why Astral/Causal Body beings

don't have sense of Asmita as a dominant sense of I-ness is this:

>

> > Since astral-bodied beings can use any of the senses like eyes to

> > see, hear, smell, taste and so on (refer Autobiography of a

> > Yogi)... the sense of egoism does not take roots in the astral-body > and

hence doesn't create Astral Karma.

> > Similarly, Causal bodied beings can use thought to sense everything.

>

> > Hence, Egotism has to be rooted out while the consciousness is

> > associated with the Physical Body sensory activities or has

> > Physical Karma.

>

> Lastly, extending upon this idea further, there are beings in the Astral

cosmos who have never been in Physical forms - We Physical beings are not the

only ones in the cycles of creation. While they will still have the idea of

" Asmita " in their causal bodies, but they will always be repelled by the

grosser-vibrations of Sensual experiences in Physical Bodies/Cosmos, and hence

would not incur any Physical Karma due to " Asmita " .

>

> --------------------------------

> [ TO ALL IN THE LIST ]

> - If the above explanation resolves the issue, well and good. Whether it

does or doesn't, this is my last mail on this topic because I had said all I had

to in the first mail itself - whether you read it or missed it.

> You may read a detailed article on this topic that I will write as and when

time allows me to do so.

>

>

> [ TO UTPALJI ]

> - Am not a jnani.

> But there are Jnanis, who know that 6th tattwa doesn't exist.

> That is why there is a significant departure.

>

> [ TO NARASIMHA ]

>

> > So you are accepting that there as " I-ness of manas " and " I-ness of >

chitta " . I-ness=aham-kaara.

>

> There was never a time that I didn't, and I have no control over what

meaning you derive from my words.

>

> > I still think this is a case of a Pascal language programmer

> > unfamiliar with C language misunderstanding some software written

> > in C language and passing comments. But unfortunately that

> > programmer seems to be hasty in using labels like " flawed " ,

> > " incorrect " , " incoherent " etc about other programmers whose

> > language he is unable to understand.

>

> The power of mind needs no language to express itself...If a Programmer

just understands this much, he will become the Architect!

> Also, while a Programmer always assumes that every other person he

encounters is a Programmer, an Architect knows that every other person is an

Architect in making. Hope you become an Architect one day!

>

> Regards,

> Nitish

>

>

> ---- Narasimha PVR Rao <pvr wrote:

> Namaste,

>

> > " Ahamkara isn't the dominant cause of I-ness in Astral/Causal bodies "

>

> What a strange statement!! After all,

>

> aham = I

> kaara = ness

> ahamkaara = I-ness.

>

> Thus, ahamkaara *IS* the I-ness of an individualized consciousness. You are

talking of ahamkaara being the " cause of " I-ness. But ahamkaara IS the I-ness!

>

> * * *

>

> Whether you talk about physical body or subtle body or causal body, I-ness in

various layers is still ahamkaara. When ahamkaara binds more to one layer, one

looks at oneself primarily from the perspective of that layer. When ahamkaara

does not bind to anything at all, one is in nirvikalpa samadhi, i.e. established

in Brahman. Ahamkaara or I-ness is a fundamental property of an individualized

consciousness and remains as long as there is some individualization.

>

> * * *

>

> > THUS, THE BEAUTIFUL ASTRAL SPHERE ARE SENSED BY THE I-NESS OF MANAS,

> > while CAUSAL SPHERE ARE SENSED BY THE I-NESS OF CHITTA.

>

> So you are accepting that there as " I-ness of manas " and " I-ness of chitta " .

I-ness=aham-kaara. If we replace I-ness in these terms, we get " ahamkaara of

manas " and " ahamkaara of chitta " . When scriptures defined the 19 proerties of

individualized consciousness, they only defined one ahamkaara apart from manas,

chitta etc and did not define " ahamkaara of manas " and " ahamkaara of chitta "

etc.

>

> For what I termed as ahamkaara (I-ness) working through manas and ahamkaara

(I-ness) working through chitta, you are coining new terms like " I-ness of

manas " and " I-ness of chitta " because you have this strange notion that

ahamkaara is tied to physical body.

>

> * * *

>

> > IF THE AHAMKARA IS NOT SUPPRESSED AFTER PHYSICAL DEATH, THE PERSON WILL

> > KEEP CARRYING THE SAME EARTHLY IDENTITY TO THE ASTRAL PLANES, AND BRING IT

> > BACK AT REBIRTH TO THE EARTH. AND THEN, HE WILL RECLAIM HIS LOST TERRITORY

> > AND WEALTH - THE CONFLICTS THAT WILL ARISE WILL BE BEYOND ANYBODY'S CONTROL.

> > THUS, THE BEAUTIFUL ASTRAL SPHERE ARE SENSED BY THE I-NESS OF MANAS,

> > while CAUSAL SPHERE ARE SENSED BY THE I-NESS OF CHITTA.

>

> Of course, ahamkaara (I-ness) associating mainly with a physical body is bad.

We have no disagreement there.

>

> The astral sphere may be beautiful to some. But, to a true jnaani, it is a

source of problems too, though the problems are lighter than the problems of the

physical domain.

>

> Celestials without physical bodies and having only ethereal bodies have

desires too and they are bonded too.

>

> * * *

>

> I still think this is a case of a Pascal language programmer unfamiliar with C

language misunderstanding some software written in C language and passing

comments. But unfortunately that programmer seems to be hasty in using labels

like " flawed " , " incorrect " , " incoherent " etc about other programmers whose

language he is unable to understand.

>

> Best regards,

> Narasimha

>

> Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAstrologer.org/homam

> Do Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAstrologer.org/tarpana

> Spirituality:

> Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro.home.comcast.net

> Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAstrologer.org

> Jyotish writings: JyotishWritings

> Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagannath.org

>

>

> , " yeeahoo_99 " <nitish.arya wrote:

> >

> > || OM TAT SAT ||

> > Namaskar Rajarshi,

> >

> > Thanks for your contribution - all you have done is to prove what is

already known.

> >

> > > Therefore, Ahamkara exists even in beyond the death for a normal

> > > human being. Therewfore, Ahamkara is present in the astral/casual

> > > plane as well.

> >

> > 1. Do you realize what is being talked about and what you have ended up

proving ? Wherein did I deny that Ahamkara is not present in Astral/Causal

bodies ?

> >

> > Ahamkara is an idea in Causal-body, so it is present all the time till

the soul is freed of the three body containers.

> >

> > 2. OTOH, What I have stated, with reference to Patanjali Sutras, is that

Ahamkara is " SUPPRESSED " in Astral and Causal bodies. Meaning

> >

> > " Ahamkara isn't the dominant cause of I-ness in Astral/Causal bodies "

> >

> > And as a result wouldn't contribute to the acquisition of Astral/Causal

Karma.

> >

> > Why is Ahamkara not dominant in Astral/Causal bodies ?

> > The reason I have already given in the first mail in sufficient detail.

> >

> > IF THE AHAMKARA IS NOT SUPPRESSED AFTER PHYSICAL DEATH, THE PERSON WILL

KEEP CARRYING THE SAME EARTHLY IDENTITY TO THE ASTRAL PLANES, AND BRING IT BACK

AT REBIRTH TO THE EARTH. AND THEN, HE WILL RECLAIM HIS LOST TERRITORY AND WEALTH

- THE CONFLICTS THAT WILL ARISE WILL BE BEYOND ANYBODY'S CONTROL.

> > THUS, THE BEAUTIFUL ASTRAL SPHERE ARE SENSED BY THE I-NESS OF MANAS,

while CAUSAL SPHERE ARE SENSED BY THE I-NESS OF CHITTA.

> >

> > Please read more of " Sri Sri Paramahansa Yogananda " , he has mentioned

about all these things (what happens to a soul at death and so on) in such a

simplistic manner in his Gita commentaries, that even a layman can understand

it.

> >

> > Regards,

> > Nitish

> >

> > , rajarshi nandy <rajarshi14@> wrote:

> > >

> > > Namaste

> > >

> > > Proof by Contradiction

> > > A person who lives as a farmer, should, after death, remain a farmer in

the astral cosmos, and after subsequent astral death, should be reborn as the

same farmer with the same name and same identity as in his previous earthly

incarnation.

> > >

> > > Wrong example.

> > >

> > > A person after his death, depending on his tendencies in this life and

level of spiritual evolution will retain some aspects of his personality, which

means a person who loves music intensely will also in his next birth have an

affinity for music. The conditions of the birth and inbetween period depends

both on his inherent samaskaras as well the karmic repurcussion. It not, never,

entirely once choice. It a mix and match between what one wants and what one

deserves. IN all cases, to be able to retain the samskara Ahamakara is needed.

Therefore, Ahamkara exists even in beyond the death for a normal human being.

Therewfore, Ahamkara is present in the astral/casual plane as well.

> > >

> > >

> > > Corollary #1:

> > > A Devata as an Astral-being has I-ness due to his Manas, and doesn't have

Ahamkara for the work done by him in all the various physical bodies.

> > >

> > >

> > > This example becomse invalid since the analysis of the first example

itself in incorrect.

> > >

> > > -Regards

> > > Rajarshi

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > The upsurge (of consciousness) is Bhairava - Shiva Sutra

> > >

> > > --- On Sun, 4/10/09, yeeahoo_99 <nitish.arya@> wrote:

> > >

> > >

> > > yeeahoo_99 <nitish.arya@>

> > > Re: Gyan Marga

> > >

> > > Sunday, 4 October, 2009, 9:40 AM

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > || OM TAT SAT ||

> > > Dear Narasimha and Sundeep,

> > >

> > > Thanks for your feedback. I thought, I had written a quite clear and

explicit mail, but your reply has proved that it needs to be put down in at

least 10-fold simpler words.

> > >

> > > You read my mail, but picked up notions in an incorrect, incoherent

manner, and are reading beyond what is written in my mail.

> > >

> > > To prove my point, I would ask Sundeep to read my previous mail on " Gyan

Marg " followed by your reply and see if he also picks up the notions in the same

manner as you did ?

> > >

> > > The only addition required is an example:

> > >

> > > Your hypothesis

> > > Ahamkara is the only I-ness there is for all the beings in all the 3

cosmoses i.e. all the Physical, Astral and Causal-bodied beings.

> > >

> > > Proof by Contradiction

> > > A person who lives as a farmer, should, after death, remain a farmer in

the astral cosmos, and after subsequent astral death, should be reborn as the

same farmer with the same name and same identity as in his previous earthly

incarnation.

> > > This is not the case, people don't even remember what they were in

previous birth, and start their life afresh in a new earthly body

> > > => Contradiction

> > > => the original hypothesis is wrong

> > > => Ahamkara is not the only sense of I-ness applicable to all beings in

all the 3 cosmoses.

> > >

> > > Inference #1:

> > > => Ahamkara is dominant sense of I-ness in Physical Cosmos.

> > > => Manas is dominant sense of I-ness in Astral Cosmos.

> > > => Chitta is dominant sense of I-ness in Causal Cosmos.

> > >

> > > Corollary #1:

> > > A Devata as an Astral-being has I-ness due to his Manas, and doesn't have

Ahamkara for the work done by him in all the various physical bodies.

> > >

> > > Inference #1 and Corollary #1 is what I had written in my previous mail on

this topic.

> > >

> > > There are many other ways to prove the contradiction on this hypothesis

(e.g. Powers of beings in physical cosmos < those in astral cosmos < those in

causal cosmos).

> > >

> > > Your made two additional points that are also invalid. My comments on that

is:

> > >

> > > 1. I-ness derived from Ahamkara,Manas and Chitta has no innate power to

Control any other idea of the 35 Causal-ideas.

> > > Reason:

> > > Soul is the only Truth and controller, everything else has an unreal and

derived existence. Thus, all the 35 ideas co-ordinate with each other, and not

control each other.

> > >

> > > 2. A new-born child or a person in Hypnotic-Trance, is able to use his

sense-consciousness coherently due to the astral-bodys' sense of I-ness derived

from Manas, that coordinates the senses.

> > > He has no Buddhi or discriminating faculty to interact with manas

(sensory-motor mind) and tell it what to do - as you have proposed. Thus, Manas

co-ordinates the senses due to its own sense of I-ness, not due to Buddhi.

> > >

> > > I hope this clarifies.

> > >

> > > Regards,

> > > Nitish

> > >

> > > , Narasimha PVR Rao <pvr@> wrote:

> > > >

> > > > Namaste,

> > > >

> > > > Out of the 19 or 35 attributes of individualized consciousness, which

one gives the idea " I am this " or " I am that " ? Of course, it is ahamkaraka or

I-ness or egosense or ego principle!

> > > >

> > > > Is one's idea of " I am this " limited to a physical body? Of course not!

If someone says " so and so person is a terrible person " , one may feel offended

or if someone says " so and so person is a great person " , one may feel elated.

One's ahamkara or I-ness is identifying with the criticism or praise, even

though nothing is being done to the physical body and only a name is being used.

When somebody calls one by name from distance (as opposed to patting on the

physical body and calling), one's consciousness may still think " I am being

called " and one may turn towards the caller. As in these examples, one's I-ness

does of course bind itself to more than a body.

> > > >

> > > > Suppose one gets a dream while sleeping. One may have forgotten totally

about the physical body in the dream! One may think of something else as " I " . In

dreams, one may see oneself as a different body or may not even " see " onself,

but still one may have the sense that so and so thing is happening to " me " . So,

even when the mind is drawn away from the physical body, there is still a notion

of " I am this " (I-ness) in a dream. That is ahamkara or I-ness or ego principle.

> > > >

> > > > Your idea that ahamkara is limited to physical body is absolutely

unacceptable. Ahamkara or I-ness extends beyond the physical body.

> > > >

> > > > Also, your idea that deities like Agni do not have ahamkara (I-ness)

because they do not have physical bodies is incorrect. Of course, Agni does have

an I-ness and thinks " I am Agni and this is what I do " . If he did not have that

I-ness, he would not do everything he does.

> > > >

> > > > Moreover, the 19 or 35 ideas of individualized consciousness do interact

with each other, whether we use the word " control " for some of those

interactions or not. For example, buddhi (intellectual/ discriminating mind)

judges various past experiences, interacts with manas (sensory-motor mind) and

tells it what to do. Then manas interacts with karmendriyas (organs of action)

and makes them do various things. My buddhi determined what to write and my

manas told my hands to type this and I ended up typing.

> > > >

> > > > Your point about " what exists as a part cannot be the whole " is totally

out of place. The sense of I-ness, the memories and conditioning, the logical

mind, the sensory-motor mind, karmendriyas etc are all different parts of

individualized consciousness and they play different roles while interacting

with each other in different ways. Some of those interactions may be deemed to

be controls.

> > > >

> > > > > Am not mixing up the terminologies, though my mail didn't

> > > > > go in details. Your understanding is flawed.

> > > > >

> > > > > 2. Where did you read this up ?

> > > >

> > > > One does not " read up " these things in a single place. There are

different abstractions and breakdowns of what happens in individualized

consciousness. There are several sources that speak of different aspects of this

knowledge in slightly different terms. One will assimilate this knowledge better

if one reads as many sources as possible and contemplates.

> > > >

> > > > Best regards,

> > > > Narasimha

> > > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -

> > > > Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ homam

> > > > Do Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ tarpana

> > > > Spirituality: http://groups. / group/vedic- wisdom

> > > > Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro. home.comcast. net

> > > > Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAst rologer.org

> > > > Jyotish writings: http://groups. / group/JyotishWri tings

> > > > Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagan nath.org

> > > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -

> > > >

> > > > ---- yeeahoo_99 <nitish.arya@ ...> wrote:

> > > > > || OM TAT SAT ||

> > > > > Dear Narasimha,

> > > > > Please Ignore my previous-mail, it was not completed - i will try to

delete it.

> > > > >

> > > > > Am not mixing up the terminologies, though my mail didn't go in

details. Your understanding is flawed.

> > > > >

> > > > > 1. All ideas including the idea of Ahamkara naturally belong to the

ideational or causal body, but Ahamkara must be overcome only in the physical

body (See point 5.). Astral or Causal-bodied beings (those without a

physical/astral body) don't have to fight with the idea of Ahamkara like we do.

> > > > >

> > > > > > Ahamkaara/ego controls manas and buddhi also. When manas (sensory-

> > > > > > ...they are all guided by the sense of I-ness. That sense of I-ness

> > > > > > permeates through all layers of one's individualized consciousness.

> > > > >

> > > > > 2. Where did you read this up ?

> > > > >

> > > > > There is a fine line between the sense of I-ness attributed to the

Individual Soul and the sense of I-ness derived through the idea of Ahamkara.

Even after a Soul is freed of the three bodies, the individuality of the Soul

Atom is not destroyed (Resurrection implies that), while it has already given up

the idea of Ahamkara including all other ideas.

> > > > >

> > > > > Individuality of a causal-bodied being is not due to the idea of

Ahamkara because " What exists as a part cannot be the whole " . Thus, the idea of

Ahamkara, being one of the 35 ideas of the Causal-body, doesn't account for

neither controls the rest of the 34 ideas. Each idea is independent of another,

without requiring another idea to act upon it - otherwise your buddhi would

always interfere with the functioning of Mind or Ahamkara or the 5 functions of

life-forces and so on.

> > > > >

> > > > > Essentially, the 35 ideas of causal body are the basic causal forces

and are not related as cause-effect to each other. Thus, each is independent of

the application of the sense of I-ness derived from Ahamkara. Manas and Buddhi

being two of the Causal-ideas, their functioning as well as existence is not

" controlled " nor " derived " in any way by the idea of Ahamkara. It is very clear

when we see those with sharpest Buddhi or Sharpest Mind still carrying Heaviest

Ahamkara, because they didn't work upon that particular idea.

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > > But ego/ahamkaara/ I-ness is the very basis of the entire

> > > > > > individualized consciousness.

> > > > >

> > > > > 3. Well, as most Physical-bodied beings cannot see through the

Astral/causal cosmoses, it doesn't apply in the same way to the finer Astral and

Causal-bodied beings who can always pierce the veil of Maya and see the human

activities. Thus, what is " the very basis " of the entire individualized

consciousness for a physical-bodied (unenlightened) being is not the same as for

an astral/causal bodied being.

> > > > > An Astral-bodied being thinks of Manas/sense- consciousness as the

very basis of the entire individualized consciousness.

> > > > > A Causal-bodied being thinks of Chitta/perceptive- consciousness as

the very basis of the entire individualized consciousness.

> > > > > However, that individuality is of the Soul not derived from any idea,

which is why it is not lost when the Astral being loses astral consciousness and

reincarnates in the Physical body.

> > > > >

> > > > > As an example, Devatas, with their finer bodies, are able to work

through all the beings in all their physical-bodies simultaneously (like Ganesh

resides in the Mooladhara, Agni digests the food, and so on..), never getting

controlled by Ahamkara that would require them to say that this particular body

is " my body " or that one is mine - unless they incarnate in Physical bodies

themselves. Devatas are, however, Astral/Causal- bodied beings, so they would

attempt to influence the Manas (Spirit-Possession) of the sense-bound

worshipper. Pretas on the other hand, would attempt to possess ones' physical

body as well as act out their Ahamkara.

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > > Out of the four antahkaranas, chitta (remembering or conditioned

> > > > > > mind) and ahamkaara (ego or I-ness) are parts of the kaarana

> > > > > > sareera (causal body) and remain till the end.

> > > > >

> > > > > 4. As per the resurrected Soul of Sri Yukteswar in Autobiography of a

Yogi -

> > > > >

> > > > > Causal body is a matrix of 35 ideas, that include 19 ideas comprising

Astral body (Chitta, Manas, Buddhi, Ahamkara, 5 functions of knowledge, 5

functions of Action, 5 functions of life-force) and 16 ideas comprising Physical

body (16 chemical elements).

> > > > >

> > > > > Now, as we all know that Physical body expires as a whole, not just

one or two of the 16 elements comprising it go away at a time, Astral and Causal

bodies are also cast off as a whole in the corresponding cosmic consciousness -

instead of different constituent ideas slipping out of it at different times.

Chitta being the staging idea for all other modifications, can be termed as the

last to go, when the causal body is finally dropped - hence I wrote as rising

above Chitta.

> > > > >

> > > > > Thus, the idea of Ahamkara is bound with Gross Physical vibrations,

> > > > > Manas with Subtle Astral vibrations and

> > > > > Chitta with infinitely Subtle Causal Vibrations.

> > > > >

> > > > > Buddhi being another variable, can be developed or undeveloped

irrespective of the other 34. Even illiterate Moodha, through surrender to their

Guru, attain freedom from Ahamkara and so on...

> > > > >

> > > > > BTW, Chitta is not the Conditioned Mind. Chitta does store the

residual impressions of all the past incarnations. However, being constituted of

Satwa Guna, it doesn't have any inherent ability to act upon (Rajas) those

impressions, just like a container containing an inflammable liquid doesn't

automatically burn it down. Sadhana is required for That.

> > > > > The Samskaras stored by Chitta, including those of Nidra, Smriti,

Vikalpa, Viparyaya, Pramana, correspond to the Tamo Guna, while the Chitta

itself is Satva Guna - hence the " Satvic - Tamas " represents the SuperEther

tattwa (refer my previous mail). The all-perceiving Satvic Chitta doesn't get

conditioned by the Tamo-guni Samskaras it stores.

> > > > > Once the Chitta calms down, cleared of all residual impressions, only

Satva Guna remains, the intuition becomes coherent and the Soul reflects on

itself as distinct from Satva Guna of Prakriti (Chitta), thus realizing its own

nature as Brahman.

> > > > >

> > > > > 5.

> > > > > In Patanjali Yoga Sutras:

> > > > > drigadarshanaktyore katmataivasmita -6

> > > > > Egoism is the identification of the seer with the instrument of

seeing. Patanjali has used Asmita instead of Ahamkara.

> > > > > Since astral-bodied beings can use any of the senses like eyes to see,

hear, smell, taste and so on (refer Autobiography of a Yogi)... the sense of

egoism does not take roots in the astral-body and hence doesn't create Astral

Karma. Similarly, Causal bodied beings can use thought to sense everything.

> > > > >

> > > > > Hence, Egotism has to be rooted out while the consciousness is

associated with the Physical Body sensory activities or has Physical Karma.

> > > > >

> > > > > 6. The idea of Manas, as the controller of sense-consciousness , must

be overcome in Astral body, through Vairagya. Read autobiography of a Yogi

(chapter 43) where Sri Yukteswar illustrates that only those beings who cannot

be tempted to go back to the pleasing to the eye Astral cosmos are permitted to

stay permanently in the Causal cosmos. Pleasing to the eye implies

Sense-consciousness which is associated with Manas.

> > > > >

> > > > > In Patanjali Yoga Sutras also it is mentioned in the same manner :

> > > > >

> > > > > dristanushravika vishaya vitrishnasya vashikara samjnavairagyam -15-

> > > > >

> > > > > That effect which comes to these who have given up their thirst after

objects, either seen or heard, and which wills to control the objects, is

non-attachment. Vivekananda has commented that Vairagya is the only way to

freedom.

> > > > >

> > > > > This is to be accomplished by transferring the consciousness to

Astral-Body and working out the Astral Karma or otherwise as an astral-bodied

being.

> > > > >

> > > > > 7. Patanjali Yoga Sutras:

> > > > > yogashchittavrittin irodhah -2-

> > > > > Thus, extinguishing all the movements of Chitta is called " Yoga " .

> > > > >

> > > > > This is to be accomplished by transferring the consciousness to

Causal-Body and working out the Causal Karma or otherwise as a causal-bodied

being.

> > > > >

> > > > > I hope this clarifies.

> > > > >

> > > > > Regards,

> > > > > Nitish

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My mail may be out of context in this thread. I noticed few statements, which I

thought, I will understand a bit more deeper.

 

I remembering seeing a statement similar to " Agni has I-ness too. Otherwise,

Agni does not do what he does " (from Narasimha).

 

I thought, Agni is a deva. Is Agni aware of the ultimate truth? Does he get

entangled in the karma? If Agni, is a jeevan muktha, then, even if he shares the

same I-ness of the Brahman, can not he act and do things since he knows Brahman

wants him to do those?

 

Best regards,

Vijay

, Narasimha PVR Rao <pvr wrote:

>

> Namaste,

>

> This is excellent - your terminology seems to be evolving and getting refined

now. At one stage, you said " Ahamkara isn't the dominant cause of I-ness in

Astral/Causal bodies " , while I was saying ahamkara=I-ness. Now, you wrote:

>

> > PHYSICAL I-NESS (AHAMKARA) = ASMITA = Physical Egotism

> > ASTRAL I-NESS (AHAMKARA) = MANAS = Astral attachments

> > CAUSAL I-NESS (AHAMKARA) = CHITTA = Causal Perceptions

>

> So you are acknowledging that I-ness and ahamkara are synonyms and referring

to ahamkara at astral and causal planes. It is good that you are slowly

converging!

>

> * * *

>

> I did not want to divert from the upanishadic terminology of 19 ideas of

individualized consciousness. So I stuck to the term ahamkaara and ignored your

references to Patanjali. Now that there is some convergence on " ahamkaara " , let

me address " asmita " mentioned in Patanjali yoga sutras.

>

> > identification of the seer with the instrument of

> > seeing i.e. Physical senses.

>

> You are assuming that physical senses or physical body is the only instrument

of seeing (or experiencing).

>

> However, mind can see, hear, feel and experience things even when it is not

working with a physical body and physical senses. For example, one's mind may

" see " something in a dream without the physical eyes seeing anything.

>

> Also, a yogi in deep meditation may see, hear, feel or experience something

without the involvement of eyes, ears and other physical senses.

>

> If such a yogi identifies with the instrument of that experience, i.e. the

mind, that too is asmita as per Patanjali's yoga sutra that you quoted. Just as

I had an issue earlier with your limiting of ahamkaara to physical body, I also

have an issue with your limiting of asmita to physical body.

>

> BTW, identification with physical body *as well as* identification with mind

block one from yoga (communion) with true Self. Both are due to ahamkaara as

defined by upanishads. Both are due to asmita as defined by Patanjali.

>

> Best regards,

> Narasimha

>

> Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAstrologer.org/homam

> Do Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAstrologer.org/tarpana

> Spirituality:

> Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro.home.comcast.net

> Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAstrologer.org

> Jyotish writings: JyotishWritings

> Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagannath.org

>

>

> ---- yeeahoo_99 <nitish.arya wrote:

> > || OM TAT SAT ||

> > Dear Utpalji and Narasimha,

> >

> > If any of you is offended due to my being explicit with words - it also

shows that you people have a lot of scope in learning of new ideas!

> >

> > > The second statement says something radical. Ahamkaara and I Ness

> > > is completely two different identity.

> > > your second statment is a departure from almost every Gnyaani has

> > > to say.

> >

> > It is none of my fault that this conflict arose and continues. Here is

the reason.

> >

> > In my first mail (#2704) itself it is explicitly written, that Patanjali

has used the exact word " asmita " for Egoism - which is the I-ness (Ahamkara) in

Physical body consciousness - that causes identification of the seer with the

instrument of seeing i.e. Physical senses.

> >

> > > In Patanjali Yoga Sutras:

> > > drigadarshanaktyorekatmataivasmita -6

> > > Egoism is the identification of the seer with the instrument of

> > > seeing.

> >

> > >>> Patanjali has used Asmita instead of Ahamkara.

> >

> >

> > PATANJALI has not used the word AHAMKARA anywhere in his PRECISE AND

ESTEEMED sanskrit dissertation on YOGA - he has chosen to use the word ASMITA

everywhere. E.g.

> >

> > 1. vitarka vicharanandasmita rupanugamat samprajnatah -

> >

> > SASMITA SAMADHI

> >

> > 2. From Lahiri Mahasayas' Commentary on Patanjali -

> >

> > avidyasmitaragadveshabhinibeshah panchakleshah

> >

> > " Avidya " [ignorance], " asmita " [egotism], " raga " [attraction or

> > liking], " dvesha " [hatred or disliking] and " abhinibesha " [engrossment] --

these are the five types of afflictions.

> >

> > Thus, using " Ahamkara " while talking about Sankhya and using " Asmita "

while talking about Patanjali Sutras brought in the conflict. In any case, what

is called as Ahamkara in 24 principles of Sankhya is actually Asmita, which can

be very-loosely pitted as Ahamkara.

> >

> > The idea stated by me was on firm grounds - with reference to Patanjali

Sutras and the words of Sri Yukteswar in Autobiography of a Yogi. And this idea

is there in my first mail, though not the exact table:

> >

> > PHYSICAL I-NESS (AHAMKARA) = ASMITA = Physical Egotism

> > ASTRAL I-NESS (AHAMKARA) = MANAS = Astral attachments

> > CAUSAL I-NESS (AHAMKARA) = CHITTA = Causal Perceptions

> >

> > Also, one of the 2 reasons that I had given on why Astral/Causal Body

beings don't have sense of Asmita as a dominant sense of I-ness is this:

> >

> > > Since astral-bodied beings can use any of the senses like eyes to

> > > see, hear, smell, taste and so on (refer Autobiography of a

> > > Yogi)... the sense of egoism does not take roots in the astral-body > and

hence doesn't create Astral Karma.

> > > Similarly, Causal bodied beings can use thought to sense everything.

> >

> > > Hence, Egotism has to be rooted out while the consciousness is

> > > associated with the Physical Body sensory activities or has

> > > Physical Karma.

> >

> > Lastly, extending upon this idea further, there are beings in the Astral

cosmos who have never been in Physical forms - We Physical beings are not the

only ones in the cycles of creation. While they will still have the idea of

" Asmita " in their causal bodies, but they will always be repelled by the

grosser-vibrations of Sensual experiences in Physical Bodies/Cosmos, and hence

would not incur any Physical Karma due to " Asmita " .

> >

> > --------------------------------

> > [ TO ALL IN THE LIST ]

> > - If the above explanation resolves the issue, well and good. Whether it

does or doesn't, this is my last mail on this topic because I had said all I had

to in the first mail itself - whether you read it or missed it.

> > You may read a detailed article on this topic that I will write as and

when time allows me to do so.

> >

> >

> > [ TO UTPALJI ]

> > - Am not a jnani.

> > But there are Jnanis, who know that 6th tattwa doesn't exist.

> > That is why there is a significant departure.

> >

> > [ TO NARASIMHA ]

> >

> > > So you are accepting that there as " I-ness of manas " and " I-ness of >

chitta " . I-ness=aham-kaara.

> >

> > There was never a time that I didn't, and I have no control over what

meaning you derive from my words.

> >

> > > I still think this is a case of a Pascal language programmer

> > > unfamiliar with C language misunderstanding some software written

> > > in C language and passing comments. But unfortunately that

> > > programmer seems to be hasty in using labels like " flawed " ,

> > > " incorrect " , " incoherent " etc about other programmers whose

> > > language he is unable to understand.

> >

> > The power of mind needs no language to express itself...If a Programmer

just understands this much, he will become the Architect!

> > Also, while a Programmer always assumes that every other person he

encounters is a Programmer, an Architect knows that every other person is an

Architect in making. Hope you become an Architect one day!

> >

> > Regards,

> > Nitish

> >

> >

> > ---- Narasimha PVR Rao <pvr wrote:

> > Namaste,

> >

> > > " Ahamkara isn't the dominant cause of I-ness in Astral/Causal bodies "

> >

> > What a strange statement!! After all,

> >

> > aham = I

> > kaara = ness

> > ahamkaara = I-ness.

> >

> > Thus, ahamkaara *IS* the I-ness of an individualized consciousness. You are

talking of ahamkaara being the " cause of " I-ness. But ahamkaara IS the I-ness!

> >

> > * * *

> >

> > Whether you talk about physical body or subtle body or causal body, I-ness

in various layers is still ahamkaara. When ahamkaara binds more to one layer,

one looks at oneself primarily from the perspective of that layer. When

ahamkaara does not bind to anything at all, one is in nirvikalpa samadhi, i.e.

established in Brahman. Ahamkaara or I-ness is a fundamental property of an

individualized consciousness and remains as long as there is some

individualization.

> >

> > * * *

> >

> > > THUS, THE BEAUTIFUL ASTRAL SPHERE ARE SENSED BY THE I-NESS OF MANAS,

> > > while CAUSAL SPHERE ARE SENSED BY THE I-NESS OF CHITTA.

> >

> > So you are accepting that there as " I-ness of manas " and " I-ness of chitta " .

I-ness=aham-kaara. If we replace I-ness in these terms, we get " ahamkaara of

manas " and " ahamkaara of chitta " . When scriptures defined the 19 proerties of

individualized consciousness, they only defined one ahamkaara apart from manas,

chitta etc and did not define " ahamkaara of manas " and " ahamkaara of chitta "

etc.

> >

> > For what I termed as ahamkaara (I-ness) working through manas and ahamkaara

(I-ness) working through chitta, you are coining new terms like " I-ness of

manas " and " I-ness of chitta " because you have this strange notion that

ahamkaara is tied to physical body.

> >

> > * * *

> >

> > > IF THE AHAMKARA IS NOT SUPPRESSED AFTER PHYSICAL DEATH, THE PERSON WILL

> > > KEEP CARRYING THE SAME EARTHLY IDENTITY TO THE ASTRAL PLANES, AND BRING IT

> > > BACK AT REBIRTH TO THE EARTH. AND THEN, HE WILL RECLAIM HIS LOST TERRITORY

> > > AND WEALTH - THE CONFLICTS THAT WILL ARISE WILL BE BEYOND ANYBODY'S

CONTROL.

> > > THUS, THE BEAUTIFUL ASTRAL SPHERE ARE SENSED BY THE I-NESS OF MANAS,

> > > while CAUSAL SPHERE ARE SENSED BY THE I-NESS OF CHITTA.

> >

> > Of course, ahamkaara (I-ness) associating mainly with a physical body is

bad. We have no disagreement there.

> >

> > The astral sphere may be beautiful to some. But, to a true jnaani, it is a

source of problems too, though the problems are lighter than the problems of the

physical domain.

> >

> > Celestials without physical bodies and having only ethereal bodies have

desires too and they are bonded too.

> >

> > * * *

> >

> > I still think this is a case of a Pascal language programmer unfamiliar with

C language misunderstanding some software written in C language and passing

comments. But unfortunately that programmer seems to be hasty in using labels

like " flawed " , " incorrect " , " incoherent " etc about other programmers whose

language he is unable to understand.

> >

> > Best regards,

> > Narasimha

> >

> > Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAstrologer.org/homam

> > Do Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAstrologer.org/tarpana

> > Spirituality:

> > Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro.home.comcast.net

> > Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAstrologer.org

> > Jyotish writings: JyotishWritings

> > Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagannath.org

> >

> >

> > , " yeeahoo_99 " <nitish.arya@> wrote:

> > >

> > > || OM TAT SAT ||

> > > Namaskar Rajarshi,

> > >

> > > Thanks for your contribution - all you have done is to prove what is

already known.

> > >

> > > > Therefore, Ahamkara exists even in beyond the death for a normal

> > > > human being. Therewfore, Ahamkara is present in the astral/casual

> > > > plane as well.

> > >

> > > 1. Do you realize what is being talked about and what you have ended up

proving ? Wherein did I deny that Ahamkara is not present in Astral/Causal

bodies ?

> > >

> > > Ahamkara is an idea in Causal-body, so it is present all the time till

the soul is freed of the three body containers.

> > >

> > > 2. OTOH, What I have stated, with reference to Patanjali Sutras, is that

Ahamkara is " SUPPRESSED " in Astral and Causal bodies. Meaning

> > >

> > > " Ahamkara isn't the dominant cause of I-ness in Astral/Causal bodies "

> > >

> > > And as a result wouldn't contribute to the acquisition of Astral/Causal

Karma.

> > >

> > > Why is Ahamkara not dominant in Astral/Causal bodies ?

> > > The reason I have already given in the first mail in sufficient detail.

> > >

> > > IF THE AHAMKARA IS NOT SUPPRESSED AFTER PHYSICAL DEATH, THE PERSON WILL

KEEP CARRYING THE SAME EARTHLY IDENTITY TO THE ASTRAL PLANES, AND BRING IT BACK

AT REBIRTH TO THE EARTH. AND THEN, HE WILL RECLAIM HIS LOST TERRITORY AND WEALTH

- THE CONFLICTS THAT WILL ARISE WILL BE BEYOND ANYBODY'S CONTROL.

> > > THUS, THE BEAUTIFUL ASTRAL SPHERE ARE SENSED BY THE I-NESS OF MANAS,

while CAUSAL SPHERE ARE SENSED BY THE I-NESS OF CHITTA.

> > >

> > > Please read more of " Sri Sri Paramahansa Yogananda " , he has mentioned

about all these things (what happens to a soul at death and so on) in such a

simplistic manner in his Gita commentaries, that even a layman can understand

it.

> > >

> > > Regards,

> > > Nitish

> > >

> > > , rajarshi nandy <rajarshi14@> wrote:

> > > >

> > > > Namaste

> > > >

> > > > Proof by Contradiction

> > > > A person who lives as a farmer, should, after death, remain a farmer in

the astral cosmos, and after subsequent astral death, should be reborn as the

same farmer with the same name and same identity as in his previous earthly

incarnation.

> > > >

> > > > Wrong example.

> > > >

> > > > A person after his death, depending on his tendencies in this life and

level of spiritual evolution will retain some aspects of his personality, which

means a person who loves music intensely will also in his next birth have an

affinity for music. The conditions of the birth and inbetween period depends

both on his inherent samaskaras as well the karmic repurcussion. It not, never,

entirely once choice. It a mix and match between what one wants and what one

deserves. IN all cases, to be able to retain the samskara Ahamakara is needed.

Therefore, Ahamkara exists even in beyond the death for a normal human being.

Therewfore, Ahamkara is present in the astral/casual plane as well.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > Corollary #1:

> > > > A Devata as an Astral-being has I-ness due to his Manas, and doesn't

have Ahamkara for the work done by him in all the various physical bodies.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > This example becomse invalid since the analysis of the first example

itself in incorrect.

> > > >

> > > > -Regards

> > > > Rajarshi

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > The upsurge (of consciousness) is Bhairava - Shiva Sutra

> > > >

> > > > --- On Sun, 4/10/09, yeeahoo_99 <nitish.arya@> wrote:

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > yeeahoo_99 <nitish.arya@>

> > > > Re: Gyan Marga

> > > >

> > > > Sunday, 4 October, 2009, 9:40 AM

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > || OM TAT SAT ||

> > > > Dear Narasimha and Sundeep,

> > > >

> > > > Thanks for your feedback. I thought, I had written a quite clear and

explicit mail, but your reply has proved that it needs to be put down in at

least 10-fold simpler words.

> > > >

> > > > You read my mail, but picked up notions in an incorrect, incoherent

manner, and are reading beyond what is written in my mail.

> > > >

> > > > To prove my point, I would ask Sundeep to read my previous mail on " Gyan

Marg " followed by your reply and see if he also picks up the notions in the same

manner as you did ?

> > > >

> > > > The only addition required is an example:

> > > >

> > > > Your hypothesis

> > > > Ahamkara is the only I-ness there is for all the beings in all the 3

cosmoses i.e. all the Physical, Astral and Causal-bodied beings.

> > > >

> > > > Proof by Contradiction

> > > > A person who lives as a farmer, should, after death, remain a farmer in

the astral cosmos, and after subsequent astral death, should be reborn as the

same farmer with the same name and same identity as in his previous earthly

incarnation.

> > > > This is not the case, people don't even remember what they were in

previous birth, and start their life afresh in a new earthly body

> > > > => Contradiction

> > > > => the original hypothesis is wrong

> > > > => Ahamkara is not the only sense of I-ness applicable to all beings in

all the 3 cosmoses.

> > > >

> > > > Inference #1:

> > > > => Ahamkara is dominant sense of I-ness in Physical Cosmos.

> > > > => Manas is dominant sense of I-ness in Astral Cosmos.

> > > > => Chitta is dominant sense of I-ness in Causal Cosmos.

> > > >

> > > > Corollary #1:

> > > > A Devata as an Astral-being has I-ness due to his Manas, and doesn't

have Ahamkara for the work done by him in all the various physical bodies.

> > > >

> > > > Inference #1 and Corollary #1 is what I had written in my previous mail

on this topic.

> > > >

> > > > There are many other ways to prove the contradiction on this hypothesis

(e.g. Powers of beings in physical cosmos < those in astral cosmos < those in

causal cosmos).

> > > >

> > > > Your made two additional points that are also invalid. My comments on

that is:

> > > >

> > > > 1. I-ness derived from Ahamkara,Manas and Chitta has no innate power to

Control any other idea of the 35 Causal-ideas.

> > > > Reason:

> > > > Soul is the only Truth and controller, everything else has an unreal and

derived existence. Thus, all the 35 ideas co-ordinate with each other, and not

control each other.

> > > >

> > > > 2. A new-born child or a person in Hypnotic-Trance, is able to use his

sense-consciousness coherently due to the astral-bodys' sense of I-ness derived

from Manas, that coordinates the senses.

> > > > He has no Buddhi or discriminating faculty to interact with manas

(sensory-motor mind) and tell it what to do - as you have proposed. Thus, Manas

co-ordinates the senses due to its own sense of I-ness, not due to Buddhi.

> > > >

> > > > I hope this clarifies.

> > > >

> > > > Regards,

> > > > Nitish

> > > >

> > > > , Narasimha PVR Rao <pvr@> wrote:

> > > > >

> > > > > Namaste,

> > > > >

> > > > > Out of the 19 or 35 attributes of individualized consciousness, which

one gives the idea " I am this " or " I am that " ? Of course, it is ahamkaraka or

I-ness or egosense or ego principle!

> > > > >

> > > > > Is one's idea of " I am this " limited to a physical body? Of course

not! If someone says " so and so person is a terrible person " , one may feel

offended or if someone says " so and so person is a great person " , one may feel

elated. One's ahamkara or I-ness is identifying with the criticism or praise,

even though nothing is being done to the physical body and only a name is being

used. When somebody calls one by name from distance (as opposed to patting on

the physical body and calling), one's consciousness may still think " I am being

called " and one may turn towards the caller. As in these examples, one's I-ness

does of course bind itself to more than a body.

> > > > >

> > > > > Suppose one gets a dream while sleeping. One may have forgotten

totally about the physical body in the dream! One may think of something else as

" I " . In dreams, one may see oneself as a different body or may not even " see "

onself, but still one may have the sense that so and so thing is happening to

" me " . So, even when the mind is drawn away from the physical body, there is

still a notion of " I am this " (I-ness) in a dream. That is ahamkara or I-ness or

ego principle.

> > > > >

> > > > > Your idea that ahamkara is limited to physical body is absolutely

unacceptable. Ahamkara or I-ness extends beyond the physical body.

> > > > >

> > > > > Also, your idea that deities like Agni do not have ahamkara (I-ness)

because they do not have physical bodies is incorrect. Of course, Agni does have

an I-ness and thinks " I am Agni and this is what I do " . If he did not have that

I-ness, he would not do everything he does.

> > > > >

> > > > > Moreover, the 19 or 35 ideas of individualized consciousness do

interact with each other, whether we use the word " control " for some of those

interactions or not. For example, buddhi (intellectual/ discriminating mind)

judges various past experiences, interacts with manas (sensory-motor mind) and

tells it what to do. Then manas interacts with karmendriyas (organs of action)

and makes them do various things. My buddhi determined what to write and my

manas told my hands to type this and I ended up typing.

> > > > >

> > > > > Your point about " what exists as a part cannot be the whole " is

totally out of place. The sense of I-ness, the memories and conditioning, the

logical mind, the sensory-motor mind, karmendriyas etc are all different parts

of individualized consciousness and they play different roles while interacting

with each other in different ways. Some of those interactions may be deemed to

be controls.

> > > > >

> > > > > > Am not mixing up the terminologies, though my mail didn't

> > > > > > go in details. Your understanding is flawed.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > 2. Where did you read this up ?

> > > > >

> > > > > One does not " read up " these things in a single place. There are

different abstractions and breakdowns of what happens in individualized

consciousness. There are several sources that speak of different aspects of this

knowledge in slightly different terms. One will assimilate this knowledge better

if one reads as many sources as possible and contemplates.

> > > > >

> > > > > Best regards,

> > > > > Narasimha

> > > > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -

> > > > > Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ homam

> > > > > Do Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ tarpana

> > > > > Spirituality: http://groups. / group/vedic- wisdom

> > > > > Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro. home.comcast. net

> > > > > Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAst rologer.org

> > > > > Jyotish writings: http://groups. / group/JyotishWri tings

> > > > > Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagan nath.org

> > > > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -

> > > > >

> > > > > ---- yeeahoo_99 <nitish.arya@ ...> wrote:

> > > > > > || OM TAT SAT ||

> > > > > > Dear Narasimha,

> > > > > > Please Ignore my previous-mail, it was not completed - i will try to

delete it.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Am not mixing up the terminologies, though my mail didn't go in

details. Your understanding is flawed.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > 1. All ideas including the idea of Ahamkara naturally belong to the

ideational or causal body, but Ahamkara must be overcome only in the physical

body (See point 5.). Astral or Causal-bodied beings (those without a

physical/astral body) don't have to fight with the idea of Ahamkara like we do.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > > Ahamkaara/ego controls manas and buddhi also. When manas (sensory-

> > > > > > > ...they are all guided by the sense of I-ness. That sense of

I-ness

> > > > > > > permeates through all layers of one's individualized

consciousness.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > 2. Where did you read this up ?

> > > > > >

> > > > > > There is a fine line between the sense of I-ness attributed to the

Individual Soul and the sense of I-ness derived through the idea of Ahamkara.

Even after a Soul is freed of the three bodies, the individuality of the Soul

Atom is not destroyed (Resurrection implies that), while it has already given up

the idea of Ahamkara including all other ideas.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Individuality of a causal-bodied being is not due to the idea of

Ahamkara because " What exists as a part cannot be the whole " . Thus, the idea of

Ahamkara, being one of the 35 ideas of the Causal-body, doesn't account for

neither controls the rest of the 34 ideas. Each idea is independent of another,

without requiring another idea to act upon it - otherwise your buddhi would

always interfere with the functioning of Mind or Ahamkara or the 5 functions of

life-forces and so on.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Essentially, the 35 ideas of causal body are the basic causal forces

and are not related as cause-effect to each other. Thus, each is independent of

the application of the sense of I-ness derived from Ahamkara. Manas and Buddhi

being two of the Causal-ideas, their functioning as well as existence is not

" controlled " nor " derived " in any way by the idea of Ahamkara. It is very clear

when we see those with sharpest Buddhi or Sharpest Mind still carrying Heaviest

Ahamkara, because they didn't work upon that particular idea.

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > > But ego/ahamkaara/ I-ness is the very basis of the entire

> > > > > > > individualized consciousness.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > 3. Well, as most Physical-bodied beings cannot see through the

Astral/causal cosmoses, it doesn't apply in the same way to the finer Astral and

Causal-bodied beings who can always pierce the veil of Maya and see the human

activities. Thus, what is " the very basis " of the entire individualized

consciousness for a physical-bodied (unenlightened) being is not the same as for

an astral/causal bodied being.

> > > > > > An Astral-bodied being thinks of Manas/sense- consciousness as the

very basis of the entire individualized consciousness.

> > > > > > A Causal-bodied being thinks of Chitta/perceptive- consciousness as

the very basis of the entire individualized consciousness.

> > > > > > However, that individuality is of the Soul not derived from any

idea, which is why it is not lost when the Astral being loses astral

consciousness and reincarnates in the Physical body.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > As an example, Devatas, with their finer bodies, are able to work

through all the beings in all their physical-bodies simultaneously (like Ganesh

resides in the Mooladhara, Agni digests the food, and so on..), never getting

controlled by Ahamkara that would require them to say that this particular body

is " my body " or that one is mine - unless they incarnate in Physical bodies

themselves. Devatas are, however, Astral/Causal- bodied beings, so they would

attempt to influence the Manas (Spirit-Possession) of the sense-bound

worshipper. Pretas on the other hand, would attempt to possess ones' physical

body as well as act out their Ahamkara.

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > > Out of the four antahkaranas, chitta (remembering or conditioned

> > > > > > > mind) and ahamkaara (ego or I-ness) are parts of the kaarana

> > > > > > > sareera (causal body) and remain till the end.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > 4. As per the resurrected Soul of Sri Yukteswar in Autobiography of

a Yogi -

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Causal body is a matrix of 35 ideas, that include 19 ideas

comprising Astral body (Chitta, Manas, Buddhi, Ahamkara, 5 functions of

knowledge, 5 functions of Action, 5 functions of life-force) and 16 ideas

comprising Physical body (16 chemical elements).

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Now, as we all know that Physical body expires as a whole, not just

one or two of the 16 elements comprising it go away at a time, Astral and Causal

bodies are also cast off as a whole in the corresponding cosmic consciousness -

instead of different constituent ideas slipping out of it at different times.

Chitta being the staging idea for all other modifications, can be termed as the

last to go, when the causal body is finally dropped - hence I wrote as rising

above Chitta.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Thus, the idea of Ahamkara is bound with Gross Physical vibrations,

> > > > > > Manas with Subtle Astral vibrations and

> > > > > > Chitta with infinitely Subtle Causal Vibrations.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Buddhi being another variable, can be developed or undeveloped

irrespective of the other 34. Even illiterate Moodha, through surrender to their

Guru, attain freedom from Ahamkara and so on...

> > > > > >

> > > > > > BTW, Chitta is not the Conditioned Mind. Chitta does store the

residual impressions of all the past incarnations. However, being constituted of

Satwa Guna, it doesn't have any inherent ability to act upon (Rajas) those

impressions, just like a container containing an inflammable liquid doesn't

automatically burn it down. Sadhana is required for That.

> > > > > > The Samskaras stored by Chitta, including those of Nidra, Smriti,

Vikalpa, Viparyaya, Pramana, correspond to the Tamo Guna, while the Chitta

itself is Satva Guna - hence the " Satvic - Tamas " represents the SuperEther

tattwa (refer my previous mail). The all-perceiving Satvic Chitta doesn't get

conditioned by the Tamo-guni Samskaras it stores.

> > > > > > Once the Chitta calms down, cleared of all residual impressions,

only Satva Guna remains, the intuition becomes coherent and the Soul reflects on

itself as distinct from Satva Guna of Prakriti (Chitta), thus realizing its own

nature as Brahman.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > 5.

> > > > > > In Patanjali Yoga Sutras:

> > > > > > drigadarshanaktyore katmataivasmita -6

> > > > > > Egoism is the identification of the seer with the instrument of

seeing. Patanjali has used Asmita instead of Ahamkara.

> > > > > > Since astral-bodied beings can use any of the senses like eyes to

see, hear, smell, taste and so on (refer Autobiography of a Yogi)... the sense

of egoism does not take roots in the astral-body and hence doesn't create Astral

Karma. Similarly, Causal bodied beings can use thought to sense everything.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Hence, Egotism has to be rooted out while the consciousness is

associated with the Physical Body sensory activities or has Physical Karma.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > 6. The idea of Manas, as the controller of sense-consciousness ,

must be overcome in Astral body, through Vairagya. Read autobiography of a Yogi

(chapter 43) where Sri Yukteswar illustrates that only those beings who cannot

be tempted to go back to the pleasing to the eye Astral cosmos are permitted to

stay permanently in the Causal cosmos. Pleasing to the eye implies

Sense-consciousness which is associated with Manas.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > In Patanjali Yoga Sutras also it is mentioned in the same manner :

> > > > > >

> > > > > > dristanushravika vishaya vitrishnasya vashikara samjnavairagyam -15-

> > > > > >

> > > > > > That effect which comes to these who have given up their thirst

after objects, either seen or heard, and which wills to control the objects, is

non-attachment. Vivekananda has commented that Vairagya is the only way to

freedom.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > This is to be accomplished by transferring the consciousness to

Astral-Body and working out the Astral Karma or otherwise as an astral-bodied

being.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > 7. Patanjali Yoga Sutras:

> > > > > > yogashchittavrittin irodhah -2-

> > > > > > Thus, extinguishing all the movements of Chitta is called " Yoga " .

> > > > > >

> > > > > > This is to be accomplished by transferring the consciousness to

Causal-Body and working out the Causal Karma or otherwise as a causal-bodied

being.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I hope this clarifies.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Regards,

> > > > > > Nitish

>

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Namaste Nitish

 

Check below.

 

-Regards

Rajarshi

 

The upsurge (of consciousness) is Bhairava - Shiva Sutra--- On Sun, 4/10/09, yeeahoo_99 <nitish.arya wrote:

yeeahoo_99 <nitish.arya Re: Gyan Marga Date: Sunday, 4 October, 2009, 4:45 PM

|| OM TAT SAT ||Namaskar Rajarshi,Thanks for your contribution - all you have done is to prove what is already known.

You had already, during you very first mail stated that everything is already known. So then why are you wastingme here? -:)

> Therefore, Ahamkara exists even in beyond the death for a normal > human being. Therewfore, Ahamkara is present in the astral/casual > plane as well.1. Do you realize what is being talked about and what you have ended up proving ?

 

Maybe, most people here realize it better than you do! Thats what makes your statements sound so incorrigible funny to say the least.

 

Wherein did I deny that Ahamkara is not present in Astral/Causal bodies ?

 

You did deny it quite vehemently. Kindly check yourolder mails. You make a statement A then in the course of discussion you conveniently change it to B and then jump around assuming ridiculous airs. At least, try and remember what you yourself speak. Go back and re check you own mails here.Why is Ahamkara not dominant in Astral/Causal bodies ?The reason I have already given in the first mail in sufficient detail.

 

 

Thats again your assumption. Ahamkara is indeed a dominant force in all planes untill one reaches a state beyond ego. BRING IT BACK AT REBIRTH TO THE EARTH. AND THEN, HE WILL RECLAIM HIS LOST TERRITORY AND WEALTH - THE CONFLICTS THAT WILL ARISE WILL BE BEYOND ANYBODY'S CONTROL.

 

 

This shows that you have not understood even 1 percent of what has been told to you till now by other in this forum, maybe because you have already decided to close your mind.

 

Ahamkara is NOT confied to acquiring or not acquiring of weath. THE specifics will depend on the law of karma. The essential sense of I-ness will very much remain in ALL planes, the speciifcs gets filled in by karmic repurcussions and desires.

 

 

THUS, THE BEAUTIFUL ASTRAL SPHERE ARE SENSED BY THE I-NESS OF MANAS, while CAUSAL SPHERE ARE SENSED BY THE I-NESS OF CHITTA.

 

Any I-ness is Ahamkara. Period.

i Sri Paramahansa Yogananda", he has mentioned about all these things (what happens to a soul at death and so on) in such a simplistic manner in his Gita commentaries, that even a layman can understand it.

 

Is that the only book you have based all your fancy ideas on? Maybe its time for you go back to some more genuine reading with a open mind. It will do you a world of good.

Regards,Nitish, rajarshi nandy <rajarshi14@ ...> wrote:>> Namaste> > Proof by Contradiction> A person who lives as a farmer, should, after death, remain a farmer in the astral cosmos, and after subsequent astral death, should be reborn as the same farmer with the same name and same identity as in his previous earthly incarnation.> > Wrong example.> > A person after his death, depending on his tendencies in this life and level of spiritual evolution will retain some aspects of his personality, which means a person who loves music intensely will also in his next birth have an affinity for music. The conditions of the birth and inbetween period

depends both on his inherent samaskaras as well the karmic repurcussion. It not, never, entirely once choice. It a mix and match between what one wants and what one deserves. IN all cases, to be able to retain the samskara Ahamakara is needed. Therefore, Ahamkara exists even in beyond the death for a normal human being. Therewfore, Ahamkara is present in the astral/casual plane as well.> > > Corollary #1:> A Devata as an Astral-being has I-ness due to his Manas, and doesn't have Ahamkara for the work done by him in all the various physical bodies.> > > This example becomse invalid since the analysis of the first example itself in incorrect.> > -Regards> Rajarshi> > > > The upsurge (of consciousness) is Bhairava - Shiva Sutra> > --- On Sun, 4/10/09, yeeahoo_99 <nitish.arya@ ...> wrote:> > >

yeeahoo_99 <nitish.arya@ ...>> Re: Gyan Marga> > Sunday, 4 October, 2009, 9:40 AM> > > > > > > || OM TAT SAT ||> Dear Narasimha and Sundeep,> > Thanks for your feedback. I thought, I had written a quite clear and explicit mail, but your reply has proved that it needs to be put down in at least 10-fold simpler words.> > You read my mail, but picked up notions in an incorrect, incoherent manner, and are reading beyond what is written in my mail.> > To prove my point, I would ask Sundeep to read my previous mail on "Gyan Marg" followed by your reply and see if he also picks up the notions in the same

manner as you did ?> > The only addition required is an example:> > Your hypothesis> Ahamkara is the only I-ness there is for all the beings in all the 3 cosmoses i.e. all the Physical, Astral and Causal-bodied beings.> > Proof by Contradiction> A person who lives as a farmer, should, after death, remain a farmer in the astral cosmos, and after subsequent astral death, should be reborn as the same farmer with the same name and same identity as in his previous earthly incarnation.> This is not the case, people don't even remember what they were in previous birth, and start their life afresh in a new earthly body> => Contradiction > => the original hypothesis is wrong > => Ahamkara is not the only sense of I-ness applicable to all beings in all the 3 cosmoses.> > Inference #1:> => Ahamkara is dominant sense of I-ness in Physical

Cosmos.> => Manas is dominant sense of I-ness in Astral Cosmos.> => Chitta is dominant sense of I-ness in Causal Cosmos.> > Corollary #1:> A Devata as an Astral-being has I-ness due to his Manas, and doesn't have Ahamkara for the work done by him in all the various physical bodies.> > Inference #1 and Corollary #1 is what I had written in my previous mail on this topic.> > There are many other ways to prove the contradiction on this hypothesis (e.g. Powers of beings in physical cosmos < those in astral cosmos < those in causal cosmos).> > Your made two additional points that are also invalid. My comments on that is:> > 1. I-ness derived from Ahamkara,Manas and Chitta has no innate power to Control any other idea of the 35 Causal-ideas.> Reason:> Soul is the only Truth and controller, everything else has an unreal and derived existence.

Thus, all the 35 ideas co-ordinate with each other, and not control each other. > > 2. A new-born child or a person in Hypnotic-Trance, is able to use his sense-consciousness coherently due to the astral-bodys' sense of I-ness derived from Manas, that coordinates the senses.> He has no Buddhi or discriminating faculty to interact with manas (sensory-motor mind) and tell it what to do - as you have proposed. Thus, Manas co-ordinates the senses due to its own sense of I-ness, not due to Buddhi.> > I hope this clarifies.> > Regards,> Nitish> > , Narasimha PVR Rao <pvr@> wrote:> >> > Namaste,> > > > Out of the 19 or 35 attributes of individualized consciousness, which one gives the idea "I am this" or "I am that"? Of course, it is ahamkaraka or I-ness or egosense or ego principle!> > > >

Is one's idea of "I am this" limited to a physical body? Of course not! If someone says "so and so person is a terrible person", one may feel offended or if someone says "so and so person is a great person", one may feel elated. One's ahamkara or I-ness is identifying with the criticism or praise, even though nothing is being done to the physical body and only a name is being used. When somebody calls one by name from distance (as opposed to patting on the physical body and calling), one's consciousness may still think "I am being called" and one may turn towards the caller. As in these examples, one's I-ness does of course bind itself to more than a body.> > > > Suppose one gets a dream while sleeping. One may have forgotten totally about the physical body in the dream! One may think of something else as "I". In dreams, one may see oneself as a different body or may not even "see" onself, but still one may have the sense that so and

so thing is happening to "me". So, even when the mind is drawn away from the physical body, there is still a notion of "I am this" (I-ness) in a dream. That is ahamkara or I-ness or ego principle.> > > > Your idea that ahamkara is limited to physical body is absolutely unacceptable. Ahamkara or I-ness extends beyond the physical body.> > > > Also, your idea that deities like Agni do not have ahamkara (I-ness) because they do not have physical bodies is incorrect. Of course, Agni does have an I-ness and thinks "I am Agni and this is what I do". If he did not have that I-ness, he would not do everything he does.> > > > Moreover, the 19 or 35 ideas of individualized consciousness do interact with each other, whether we use the word "control" for some of those interactions or not. For example, buddhi (intellectual/ discriminating mind) judges various past experiences, interacts with manas

(sensory-motor mind) and tells it what to do. Then manas interacts with karmendriyas (organs of action) and makes them do various things. My buddhi determined what to write and my manas told my hands to type this and I ended up typing.> > > > Your point about "what exists as a part cannot be the whole" is totally out of place. The sense of I-ness, the memories and conditioning, the logical mind, the sensory-motor mind, karmendriyas etc are all different parts of individualized consciousness and they play different roles while interacting with each other in different ways. Some of those interactions may be deemed to be controls.> > > > > Am not mixing up the terminologies, though my mail didn't> > > go in details. Your understanding is flawed.> > > > > > 2. Where did you read this up ?> > > > One does not "read up" these things in a single place. There

are different abstractions and breakdowns of what happens in individualized consciousness. There are several sources that speak of different aspects of this knowledge in slightly different terms. One will assimilate this knowledge better if one reads as many sources as possible and contemplates.> > > > Best regards,> > Narasimha> > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -> > Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ homam> > Do Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ tarpana> > Spirituality: http://groups. / group/vedic- wisdom> > Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro. home.comcast. net> > Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAst rologer.org> > Jyotish writings: http://groups. / group/JyotishWri tings> > Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagan nath.org> > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -> > > > ---- yeeahoo_99 <nitish.arya@ ...> wrote: > > > || OM TAT SAT ||> > > Dear Narasimha,> > > Please Ignore my previous-mail, it was not completed - i will try to delete it.> > > > > > Am not mixing up the terminologies, though my mail didn't go in details. Your understanding is flawed.> > > > >

> 1. All ideas including the idea of Ahamkara naturally belong to the ideational or causal body, but Ahamkara must be overcome only in the physical body (See point 5.). Astral or Causal-bodied beings (those without a physical/astral body) don't have to fight with the idea of Ahamkara like we do.> > > > > > > Ahamkaara/ego controls manas and buddhi also. When manas (sensory-> > > > ...they are all guided by the sense of I-ness. That sense of I-ness > > > > permeates through all layers of one's individualized consciousness.> > > > > > 2. Where did you read this up ?> > > > > > There is a fine line between the sense of I-ness attributed to the Individual Soul and the sense of I-ness derived through the idea of Ahamkara. Even after a Soul is freed of the three bodies, the individuality of the Soul Atom is not destroyed (Resurrection implies

that), while it has already given up the idea of Ahamkara including all other ideas.> > > > > > Individuality of a causal-bodied being is not due to the idea of Ahamkara because "What exists as a part cannot be the whole". Thus, the idea of Ahamkara, being one of the 35 ideas of the Causal-body, doesn't account for neither controls the rest of the 34 ideas. Each idea is independent of another, without requiring another idea to act upon it - otherwise your buddhi would always interfere with the functioning of Mind or Ahamkara or the 5 functions of life-forces and so on.> > > > > > Essentially, the 35 ideas of causal body are the basic causal forces and are not related as cause-effect to each other. Thus, each is independent of the application of the sense of I-ness derived from Ahamkara. Manas and Buddhi being two of the Causal-ideas, their functioning as well as existence is not "controlled" nor

"derived" in any way by the idea of Ahamkara. It is very clear when we see those with sharpest Buddhi or Sharpest Mind still carrying Heaviest Ahamkara, because they didn't work upon that particular idea.> > > > > > > > > > But ego/ahamkaara/ I-ness is the very basis of the entire > > > > individualized consciousness.> > > > > > 3. Well, as most Physical-bodied beings cannot see through the Astral/causal cosmoses, it doesn't apply in the same way to the finer Astral and Causal-bodied beings who can always pierce the veil of Maya and see the human activities. Thus, what is "the very basis" of the entire individualized consciousness for a physical-bodied (unenlightened) being is not the same as for an astral/causal bodied being.> > > An Astral-bodied being thinks of Manas/sense- consciousness as the very basis of the entire individualized

consciousness.> > > A Causal-bodied being thinks of Chitta/perceptive- consciousness as the very basis of the entire individualized consciousness.> > > However, that individuality is of the Soul not derived from any idea, which is why it is not lost when the Astral being loses astral consciousness and reincarnates in the Physical body.> > > > > > As an example, Devatas, with their finer bodies, are able to work through all the beings in all their physical-bodies simultaneously (like Ganesh resides in the Mooladhara, Agni digests the food, and so on..), never getting controlled by Ahamkara that would require them to say that this particular body is "my body" or that one is mine - unless they incarnate in Physical bodies themselves. Devatas are, however, Astral/Causal- bodied beings, so they would attempt to influence the Manas (Spirit-Possession) of the sense-bound worshipper. Pretas on the other hand,

would attempt to possess ones' physical body as well as act out their Ahamkara.> > > > > > > > > > Out of the four antahkaranas, chitta (remembering or conditioned > > > > mind) and ahamkaara (ego or I-ness) are parts of the kaarana > > > > sareera (causal body) and remain till the end.> > > > > > 4. As per the resurrected Soul of Sri Yukteswar in Autobiography of a Yogi -> > > > > > Causal body is a matrix of 35 ideas, that include 19 ideas comprising Astral body (Chitta, Manas, Buddhi, Ahamkara, 5 functions of knowledge, 5 functions of Action, 5 functions of life-force) and 16 ideas comprising Physical body (16 chemical elements).> > > > > > Now, as we all know that Physical body expires as a whole, not just one or two of the 16 elements comprising it go away at a time, Astral and Causal bodies are

also cast off as a whole in the corresponding cosmic consciousness - instead of different constituent ideas slipping out of it at different times. Chitta being the staging idea for all other modifications, can be termed as the last to go, when the causal body is finally dropped - hence I wrote as rising above Chitta.> > > > > > Thus, the idea of Ahamkara is bound with Gross Physical vibrations, > > > Manas with Subtle Astral vibrations and > > > Chitta with infinitely Subtle Causal Vibrations.> > > > > > Buddhi being another variable, can be developed or undeveloped irrespective of the other 34. Even illiterate Moodha, through surrender to their Guru, attain freedom from Ahamkara and so on...> > > > > > BTW, Chitta is not the Conditioned Mind. Chitta does store the residual impressions of all the past incarnations. However, being constituted of Satwa

Guna, it doesn't have any inherent ability to act upon (Rajas) those impressions, just like a container containing an inflammable liquid doesn't automatically burn it down. Sadhana is required for That.> > > The Samskaras stored by Chitta, including those of Nidra, Smriti, Vikalpa, Viparyaya, Pramana, correspond to the Tamo Guna, while the Chitta itself is Satva Guna - hence the "Satvic - Tamas" represents the SuperEther tattwa (refer my previous mail). The all-perceiving Satvic Chitta doesn't get conditioned by the Tamo-guni Samskaras it stores.> > > Once the Chitta calms down, cleared of all residual impressions, only Satva Guna remains, the intuition becomes coherent and the Soul reflects on itself as distinct from Satva Guna of Prakriti (Chitta), thus realizing its own nature as Brahman.> > > > > > 5. > > > In Patanjali Yoga Sutras: > > > drigadarshanaktyore

katmataivasmita -6> > > Egoism is the identification of the seer with the instrument of seeing. Patanjali has used Asmita instead of Ahamkara.> > > Since astral-bodied beings can use any of the senses like eyes to see, hear, smell, taste and so on (refer Autobiography of a Yogi)... the sense of egoism does not take roots in the astral-body and hence doesn't create Astral Karma. Similarly, Causal bodied beings can use thought to sense everything.> > > > > > Hence, Egotism has to be rooted out while the consciousness is associated with the Physical Body sensory activities or has Physical Karma.> > > > > > 6. The idea of Manas, as the controller of sense-consciousness , must be overcome in Astral body, through Vairagya. Read autobiography of a Yogi (chapter 43) where Sri Yukteswar illustrates that only those beings who cannot be tempted to go back to the pleasing to the eye

Astral cosmos are permitted to stay permanently in the Causal cosmos. Pleasing to the eye implies Sense-consciousness which is associated with Manas.> > > > > > In Patanjali Yoga Sutras also it is mentioned in the same manner :> > > > > > dristanushravika vishaya vitrishnasya vashikara samjnavairagyam -15-> > > > > > That effect which comes to these who have given up their thirst after objects, either seen or heard, and which wills to control the objects, is non-attachment. Vivekananda has commented that Vairagya is the only way to freedom.> > > > > > This is to be accomplished by transferring the consciousness to Astral-Body and working out the Astral Karma or otherwise as an astral-bodied being.> > > > > > 7. Patanjali Yoga Sutras:> > > yogashchittavrittin irodhah -2-> > > Thus, extinguishing all

the movements of Chitta is called "Yoga". > > > > > > This is to be accomplished by transferring the consciousness to Causal-Body and working out the Causal Karma or otherwise as a causal-bodied being.> > > > > > I hope this clarifies.> > > > > > Regards,> > > Nitish> > > > > > , Narasimha PVR Rao <pvr@> wrote:> > > >> > > > Namaste Nitish,> > > > > > > > I am afraid you are mixing up terminologies. For example, ego or ahamkaara (sense of I-ness) is not limited to the physical body, but extends to subtle body and causal body as well. In fact, ego resides in the causal body and affects other bodies. Out of the four antahkaranas, chitta (remembering or conditioned mind) and ahamkaara (ego or I-ness) are parts of the kaarana sareera

(causal body) and remain till the end.> > > > > > > > Ahamkaara/ego controls manas and buddhi also. When manas (sensory-motor mind) observes sensory inputs or buddhi (intellectual or thinking mind) analyzes current and past observations of mind or chitta (remembering or conditioned mind) stores various observations or retrieves previously stored observations, they are all guided by the sense of I-ness. That sense of I-ness permeates through all layers of one's individualized consciousness.> > > > > > > > Upanishads and various scriptures have broken down the individualized consciousness into various groups by functionality, like five koshas, three sareeras, five praanas, five jnaanendriyas, five karmendriyas, four antahkaranas, six/seven chakras etc. But ego/ahamkaara/ I-ness is the very basis of the entire individualized consciousness.> > > > > > > > Though

the word jnaana means different things to different people, a jnaana yogi pursues Self by the path of contemplation and discrimination. When a jnaana yogi reaches the final target, all bodies and koshas are merged in cosmos.> > > > > > > > Best regards,> > > > Narasimha> > > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -> > > > Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ homam> > > > Do Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ tarpana> > > > Spirituality: http://groups. / group/vedic- wisdom> > > > Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro. home.comcast. net> > > > Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAst rologer.org> > > > Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagan nath.org> > > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -> > > > > > > > ---- yeeahoo_99 <nitish.arya@ > wrote: > > > > > || OM TAT SAT ||> > > > > Dear Narasimha,> > > > > In my opinion, there are three distinct phases that lead the sould to rise above Ego, Mind and Chitta - corresponding to the three bodies physical (Sthoola), astral (Sookshma) and causal (Karana) resp.> > > > > > > > > > Rising above Ego is Jnana - Merging Physical body in

Physical cosmos> > > > > Rising above Mind is Vairagya - Merging Astral body in Astral cosmos> > > > > Rising above Chitta is Yoga - Merging Causal body in Causal cosmos> > > > > > > > > > Finally, becoming established in Para-Brahman is YogaArudha.> > > > > > > > > > Your comments.> > > > > Regards,> > > > > Nitish> > > > > > > > > > , "Narasimha P.V.R. Rao" <pvr@> wrote:> > > > > >> > > > > > Namaste,> > > > > > > > > > > > Gyaani or jnaani is a wise and learned person, who may or may not debate (or even engage) with others. One may become a gyaani using either gyaana yoga or bhakti yoga or karma yoga or raaja yoga.> > >

> > > > > > > > > Gyaana/jnaana yoga is a path of pursuing the Supreme through intellectual analysis. One pursuing that path may or may not debate with others and may or may not read many scriptures, but one will analyze and debate within oneself. One starts with the basic axioms (e.g. Self is imperishable and without a beginning or an end). One will go on eliminating things that one is aware of as not being Self. For example, body has a beginning and end and is perishable. So it is not Self. One introspects like this and, though the process of elimination, finally finds the true Self. That is gyaana yoga. Pure gyaana yoga is very difficult to follow in this age.> > > > > > > > > > > > Vichaara (contemplation) is the process of sadhana for an adherer of pure gyaana yoga.> > > > > > > > > > > > However, the gyaana (knowledge of Self)

achieved by such a person at the end is not really different from the knowledge of Self achieved by a person following another path.> > > > > > > > > > > > Best regards,> > > > > > Narasimha> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Try the new India Homepage. http://in.. com/trynew>

From cricket scores to your friends. Try the India Homepage!

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Namaste

 

And that is exactly why we must first clearly, precisely define the terminologies, and make exact, calculated statements in a discussion.

 

It is funny to see some people who do not understand this basic idea and yet go ahead and make ridiculous assumptions when they themselves keep changing their ideas in every 2 mails.

 

-Regards

Rajarshi

 

 

 

The upsurge (of consciousness) is Bhairava - Shiva Sutra--- On Mon, 5/10/09, Narasimha PVR Rao <pvr wrote:

Narasimha PVR Rao <pvr Re: Gyan Marga Date: Monday, 5 October, 2009, 7:50 AM

Namaste,This is excellent - your terminology seems to be evolving and getting refined now. At one stage, you said "Ahamkara isn't the dominant cause of I-ness in Astral/Causal bodies", while I was saying ahamkara=I-ness. Now, you wrote:> PHYSICAL I-NESS (AHAMKARA) = ASMITA = Physical Egotism> ASTRAL I-NESS (AHAMKARA) = MANAS = Astral attachments> CAUSAL I-NESS (AHAMKARA) = CHITTA = Causal PerceptionsSo you are acknowledging that I-ness and ahamkara are synonyms and referring to ahamkara at astral and causal planes. It is good that you are slowly converging!* * *I did not want to divert from the upanishadic terminology of 19 ideas of individualized consciousness. So I stuck to the term ahamkaara and ignored your references to Patanjali. Now that there is some convergence on "ahamkaara", let me address "asmita" mentioned in Patanjali yoga sutras.> identification of the seer with the

instrument of> seeing i.e. Physical senses.You are assuming that physical senses or physical body is the only instrument of seeing (or experiencing) .However, mind can see, hear, feel and experience things even when it is not working with a physical body and physical senses. For example, one's mind may "see" something in a dream without the physical eyes seeing anything.Also, a yogi in deep meditation may see, hear, feel or experience something without the involvement of eyes, ears and other physical senses.If such a yogi identifies with the instrument of that experience, i.e. the mind, that too is asmita as per Patanjali's yoga sutra that you quoted. Just as I had an issue earlier with your limiting of ahamkaara to physical body, I also have an issue with your limiting of asmita to physical body.BTW, identification with physical body *as well as* identification with mind block one from yoga (communion)

with true Self. Both are due to ahamkaara as defined by upanishads. Both are due to asmita as defined by Patanjali.Best regards,Narasimha------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ homamDo Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ tarpanaSpirituality: http://groups. / group/vedic- wisdomFree Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro. home.comcast. netFree Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAst rologer.orgJyotish

writings: http://groups. / group/JyotishWri tingsSri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagan nath.org------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- ----- yeeahoo_99 <nitish.arya@ gmail.com> wrote: > || OM TAT SAT ||> Dear Utpalji and Narasimha,> > If any of you is offended due to my being explicit with words - it also shows that you people have a lot of scope in learning of new ideas!> > > The second statement says something radical. Ahamkaara and I Ness > > is completely two different identity.> > your second statment is a

departure from almost every Gnyaani has > > to say.> > It is none of my fault that this conflict arose and continues. Here is the reason.> > In my first mail (#2704) itself it is explicitly written, that Patanjali has used the exact word "asmita" for Egoism - which is the I-ness (Ahamkara) in Physical body consciousness - that causes identification of the seer with the instrument of seeing i.e. Physical senses.> > > In Patanjali Yoga Sutras:> > drigadarshanaktyore katmataivasmita -6> > Egoism is the identification of the seer with the instrument of > > seeing.> > >>> Patanjali has used Asmita instead of Ahamkara.> > > PATANJALI has not used the word AHAMKARA anywhere in his PRECISE AND ESTEEMED sanskrit dissertation on YOGA - he has chosen to use the word ASMITA everywhere. E.g.> > 1. vitarka vicharanandasmita

rupanugamat samprajnatah -> > SASMITA SAMADHI> > 2. From Lahiri Mahasayas' Commentary on Patanjali - > > avidyasmitaragadves habhinibeshah panchakleshah> > "Avidya" [ignorance], "asmita" [egotism], "raga" [attraction or > liking], "dvesha" [hatred or disliking] and "abhinibesha" [engrossment] -- these are the five types of afflictions.> > Thus, using "Ahamkara" while talking about Sankhya and using "Asmita" while talking about Patanjali Sutras brought in the conflict. In any case, what is called as Ahamkara in 24 principles of Sankhya is actually Asmita, which can be very-loosely pitted as Ahamkara.> > The idea stated by me was on firm grounds - with reference to Patanjali Sutras and the words of Sri Yukteswar in Autobiography of a Yogi. And this idea is there in my first mail, though not the exact table: > > PHYSICAL I-NESS (AHAMKARA) = ASMITA =

Physical Egotism> ASTRAL I-NESS (AHAMKARA) = MANAS = Astral attachments> CAUSAL I-NESS (AHAMKARA) = CHITTA = Causal Perceptions> > Also, one of the 2 reasons that I had given on why Astral/Causal Body beings don't have sense of Asmita as a dominant sense of I-ness is this:> > > Since astral-bodied beings can use any of the senses like eyes to > > see, hear, smell, taste and so on (refer Autobiography of a > > Yogi)... the sense of egoism does not take roots in the astral-body > and hence doesn't create Astral Karma.> > Similarly, Causal bodied beings can use thought to sense everything.> > > Hence, Egotism has to be rooted out while the consciousness is > > associated with the Physical Body sensory activities or has > > Physical Karma.> > Lastly, extending upon this idea further, there are beings in the Astral cosmos who have

never been in Physical forms - We Physical beings are not the only ones in the cycles of creation. While they will still have the idea of "Asmita" in their causal bodies, but they will always be repelled by the grosser-vibrations of Sensual experiences in Physical Bodies/Cosmos, and hence would not incur any Physical Karma due to "Asmita".> > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -> [ TO ALL IN THE LIST ] > - If the above explanation resolves the issue, well and good. Whether it does or doesn't, this is my last mail on this topic because I had said all I had to in the first mail itself - whether you read it or missed it.> You may read a detailed article on this topic that I will write as and when time allows me to do so.> > > [ TO UTPALJI ]> - Am not a jnani.> But there are Jnanis, who know that 6th tattwa doesn't exist.> That is why there is a

significant departure.> > [ TO NARASIMHA ]> > > So you are accepting that there as "I-ness of manas" and "I-ness of > chitta". I-ness=aham- kaara.> > There was never a time that I didn't, and I have no control over what meaning you derive from my words.> > > I still think this is a case of a Pascal language programmer > > unfamiliar with C language misunderstanding some software written > > in C language and passing comments. But unfortunately that > > programmer seems to be hasty in using labels like "flawed", > > "incorrect", "incoherent" etc about other programmers whose > > language he is unable to understand.> > The power of mind needs no language to express itself...If a Programmer just understands this much, he will become the Architect!> Also, while a Programmer always assumes that every other person he

encounters is a Programmer, an Architect knows that every other person is an Architect in making. Hope you become an Architect one day!> > Regards,> Nitish> > > ---- Narasimha PVR Rao <pvr (AT) charter (DOT) net> wrote: > Namaste,> > > "Ahamkara isn't the dominant cause of I-ness in Astral/Causal bodies"> > What a strange statement!! After all,> > aham = I> kaara = ness> ahamkaara = I-ness.> > Thus, ahamkaara *IS* the I-ness of an individualized consciousness. You are talking of ahamkaara being the "cause of" I-ness. But ahamkaara IS the I-ness!> > * * *> > Whether you talk about physical body or subtle body or causal body, I-ness in various layers is still ahamkaara. When

ahamkaara binds more to one layer, one looks at oneself primarily from the perspective of that layer. When ahamkaara does not bind to anything at all, one is in nirvikalpa samadhi, i.e. established in Brahman. Ahamkaara or I-ness is a fundamental property of an individualized consciousness and remains as long as there is some individualization.> > * * *> > > THUS, THE BEAUTIFUL ASTRAL SPHERE ARE SENSED BY THE I-NESS OF MANAS,> > while CAUSAL SPHERE ARE SENSED BY THE I-NESS OF CHITTA.> > So you are accepting that there as "I-ness of manas" and "I-ness of chitta". I-ness=aham- kaara. If we replace I-ness in these terms, we get "ahamkaara of manas" and "ahamkaara of chitta". When scriptures defined the 19 proerties of individualized consciousness, they only defined one ahamkaara apart from manas, chitta etc and did not define "ahamkaara of manas" and "ahamkaara of chitta" etc.> > For what

I termed as ahamkaara (I-ness) working through manas and ahamkaara (I-ness) working through chitta, you are coining new terms like "I-ness of manas" and "I-ness of chitta" because you have this strange notion that ahamkaara is tied to physical body.> > * * *> > > IF THE AHAMKARA IS NOT SUPPRESSED AFTER PHYSICAL DEATH, THE PERSON WILL> > KEEP CARRYING THE SAME EARTHLY IDENTITY TO THE ASTRAL PLANES, AND BRING IT> > BACK AT REBIRTH TO THE EARTH. AND THEN, HE WILL RECLAIM HIS LOST TERRITORY> > AND WEALTH - THE CONFLICTS THAT WILL ARISE WILL BE BEYOND ANYBODY'S CONTROL. > > THUS, THE BEAUTIFUL ASTRAL SPHERE ARE SENSED BY THE I-NESS OF MANAS,> > while CAUSAL SPHERE ARE SENSED BY THE I-NESS OF CHITTA.> > Of course, ahamkaara (I-ness) associating mainly with a physical body is bad. We have no disagreement there.> > The astral sphere may be beautiful to

some. But, to a true jnaani, it is a source of problems too, though the problems are lighter than the problems of the physical domain.> > Celestials without physical bodies and having only ethereal bodies have desires too and they are bonded too.> > * * *> > I still think this is a case of a Pascal language programmer unfamiliar with C language misunderstanding some software written in C language and passing comments. But unfortunately that programmer seems to be hasty in using labels like "flawed", "incorrect", "incoherent" etc about other programmers whose language he is unable to understand.> > Best regards,> Narasimha> ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -> Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ homam> Do Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ tarpana> Spirituality: http://groups. / group/vedic- wisdom> Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro. home.comcast. net> Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAst rologer.org> Jyotish writings: http://groups. / group/JyotishWri tings> Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagan nath.org> ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -> > --- In

, "yeeahoo_99" <nitish.arya@ ...> wrote:> >> > || OM TAT SAT ||> > Namaskar Rajarshi,> > > > Thanks for your contribution - all you have done is to prove what is already known.> > > > > Therefore, Ahamkara exists even in beyond the death for a normal > > > human being. Therewfore, Ahamkara is present in the astral/casual > > > plane as well.> > > > 1. Do you realize what is being talked about and what you have ended up proving ? Wherein did I deny that Ahamkara is not present in Astral/Causal bodies ?> > > > Ahamkara is an idea in Causal-body, so it is present all the time till the soul is freed of the three body

containers.> > > > 2. OTOH, What I have stated, with reference to Patanjali Sutras, is that Ahamkara is "SUPPRESSED" in Astral and Causal bodies. Meaning > > > > "Ahamkara isn't the dominant cause of I-ness in Astral/Causal bodies"> > > > And as a result wouldn't contribute to the acquisition of Astral/Causal Karma.> > > > Why is Ahamkara not dominant in Astral/Causal bodies ?> > The reason I have already given in the first mail in sufficient detail.> > > > IF THE AHAMKARA IS NOT SUPPRESSED AFTER PHYSICAL DEATH, THE PERSON WILL KEEP CARRYING THE SAME EARTHLY IDENTITY TO THE ASTRAL PLANES, AND BRING IT BACK AT REBIRTH TO THE EARTH. AND THEN, HE WILL RECLAIM HIS LOST TERRITORY AND WEALTH - THE CONFLICTS THAT WILL ARISE WILL BE BEYOND ANYBODY'S CONTROL. > > THUS, THE BEAUTIFUL ASTRAL SPHERE ARE SENSED BY THE I-NESS OF MANAS, while CAUSAL

SPHERE ARE SENSED BY THE I-NESS OF CHITTA.> > > > Please read more of "Sri Sri Paramahansa Yogananda", he has mentioned about all these things (what happens to a soul at death and so on) in such a simplistic manner in his Gita commentaries, that even a layman can understand it.> > > > Regards,> > Nitish> > > > , rajarshi nandy <rajarshi14@ > wrote:> > >> > > Namaste> > > > > > Proof by Contradiction> > > A person who lives as a farmer, should, after death, remain a farmer in the astral cosmos, and after subsequent astral death, should be reborn as the same farmer with the same name and same identity as in his previous

earthly incarnation.> > > > > > Wrong example.> > > > > > A person after his death, depending on his tendencies in this life and level of spiritual evolution will retain some aspects of his personality, which means a person who loves music intensely will also in his next birth have an affinity for music. The conditions of the birth and inbetween period depends both on his inherent samaskaras as well the karmic repurcussion. It not, never, entirely once choice. It a mix and match between what one wants and what one deserves. IN all cases, to be able to retain the samskara Ahamakara is needed. Therefore, Ahamkara exists even in beyond the death for a normal human being. Therewfore, Ahamkara is present in the astral/casual plane as well.> > > > > > > > > Corollary #1:> > > A Devata as an Astral-being has I-ness due to his Manas, and doesn't have Ahamkara

for the work done by him in all the various physical bodies.> > > > > > > > > This example becomse invalid since the analysis of the first example itself in incorrect.> > > > > > -Regards> > > Rajarshi> > > > > > > > > > > > The upsurge (of consciousness) is Bhairava - Shiva Sutra> > > > > > --- On Sun, 4/10/09, yeeahoo_99 <nitish.arya@ > wrote:> > > > > > > > > yeeahoo_99 <nitish.arya@ >> > > Re: Gyan Marga> > > > > > Sunday, 4 October, 2009, 9:40 AM> > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > || OM TAT SAT ||> > > Dear Narasimha and Sundeep,> > > > > > Thanks for your feedback. I thought, I had written a quite clear and explicit mail, but your reply has proved that it needs to be put down in at least 10-fold simpler words.> > > > > > You read my mail, but picked up notions in an incorrect, incoherent manner, and are reading beyond what is written in my mail.> > > > > > To prove my point, I would ask Sundeep to read my previous mail on "Gyan Marg" followed by your reply and see if he also picks up the notions in the same manner as you did ?> > > > > > The only addition required is an example:> > > > > > Your hypothesis> > > Ahamkara is the only I-ness there is for all the beings in all the 3

cosmoses i.e. all the Physical, Astral and Causal-bodied beings.> > > > > > Proof by Contradiction> > > A person who lives as a farmer, should, after death, remain a farmer in the astral cosmos, and after subsequent astral death, should be reborn as the same farmer with the same name and same identity as in his previous earthly incarnation.> > > This is not the case, people don't even remember what they were in previous birth, and start their life afresh in a new earthly body> > > => Contradiction > > > => the original hypothesis is wrong > > > => Ahamkara is not the only sense of I-ness applicable to all beings in all the 3 cosmoses.> > > > > > Inference #1:> > > => Ahamkara is dominant sense of I-ness in Physical Cosmos.> > > => Manas is dominant sense of I-ness in Astral Cosmos.> >

> => Chitta is dominant sense of I-ness in Causal Cosmos.> > > > > > Corollary #1:> > > A Devata as an Astral-being has I-ness due to his Manas, and doesn't have Ahamkara for the work done by him in all the various physical bodies.> > > > > > Inference #1 and Corollary #1 is what I had written in my previous mail on this topic.> > > > > > There are many other ways to prove the contradiction on this hypothesis (e.g. Powers of beings in physical cosmos < those in astral cosmos < those in causal cosmos).> > > > > > Your made two additional points that are also invalid. My comments on that is:> > > > > > 1. I-ness derived from Ahamkara,Manas and Chitta has no innate power to Control any other idea of the 35 Causal-ideas.> > > Reason:> > > Soul is the only Truth and controller,

everything else has an unreal and derived existence. Thus, all the 35 ideas co-ordinate with each other, and not control each other. > > > > > > 2. A new-born child or a person in Hypnotic-Trance, is able to use his sense-consciousness coherently due to the astral-bodys' sense of I-ness derived from Manas, that coordinates the senses.> > > He has no Buddhi or discriminating faculty to interact with manas (sensory-motor mind) and tell it what to do - as you have proposed. Thus, Manas co-ordinates the senses due to its own sense of I-ness, not due to Buddhi.> > > > > > I hope this clarifies.> > > > > > Regards,> > > Nitish> > > > > > , Narasimha PVR Rao <pvr@> wrote:> > > >> > > > Namaste,> > > > > > > > Out of the 19 or

35 attributes of individualized consciousness, which one gives the idea "I am this" or "I am that"? Of course, it is ahamkaraka or I-ness or egosense or ego principle!> > > > > > > > Is one's idea of "I am this" limited to a physical body? Of course not! If someone says "so and so person is a terrible person", one may feel offended or if someone says "so and so person is a great person", one may feel elated. One's ahamkara or I-ness is identifying with the criticism or praise, even though nothing is being done to the physical body and only a name is being used. When somebody calls one by name from distance (as opposed to patting on the physical body and calling), one's consciousness may still think "I am being called" and one may turn towards the caller. As in these examples, one's I-ness does of course bind itself to more than a body.> > > > > > > > Suppose one gets a dream while sleeping.

One may have forgotten totally about the physical body in the dream! One may think of something else as "I". In dreams, one may see oneself as a different body or may not even "see" onself, but still one may have the sense that so and so thing is happening to "me". So, even when the mind is drawn away from the physical body, there is still a notion of "I am this" (I-ness) in a dream. That is ahamkara or I-ness or ego principle.> > > > > > > > Your idea that ahamkara is limited to physical body is absolutely unacceptable. Ahamkara or I-ness extends beyond the physical body.> > > > > > > > Also, your idea that deities like Agni do not have ahamkara (I-ness) because they do not have physical bodies is incorrect. Of course, Agni does have an I-ness and thinks "I am Agni and this is what I do". If he did not have that I-ness, he would not do everything he does.> > > > >

> > > Moreover, the 19 or 35 ideas of individualized consciousness do interact with each other, whether we use the word "control" for some of those interactions or not. For example, buddhi (intellectual/ discriminating mind) judges various past experiences, interacts with manas (sensory-motor mind) and tells it what to do. Then manas interacts with karmendriyas (organs of action) and makes them do various things. My buddhi determined what to write and my manas told my hands to type this and I ended up typing.> > > > > > > > Your point about "what exists as a part cannot be the whole" is totally out of place. The sense of I-ness, the memories and conditioning, the logical mind, the sensory-motor mind, karmendriyas etc are all different parts of individualized consciousness and they play different roles while interacting with each other in different ways. Some of those interactions may be deemed to be

controls.> > > > > > > > > Am not mixing up the terminologies, though my mail didn't> > > > > go in details. Your understanding is flawed.> > > > > > > > > > 2. Where did you read this up ?> > > > > > > > One does not "read up" these things in a single place. There are different abstractions and breakdowns of what happens in individualized consciousness. There are several sources that speak of different aspects of this knowledge in slightly different terms. One will assimilate this knowledge better if one reads as many sources as possible and contemplates.> > > > > > > > Best regards,> > > > Narasimha> > > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -> > > > Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ homam> > > > Do Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ tarpana> > > > Spirituality: http://groups. / group/vedic- wisdom> > > > Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro. home.comcast. net> > > > Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAst rologer.org> > > > Jyotish writings: http://groups. / group/JyotishWri tings> > > > Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagan nath.org> > >

> ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -> > > > > > > > ---- yeeahoo_99 <nitish.arya@ ...> wrote: > > > > > || OM TAT SAT ||> > > > > Dear Narasimha,> > > > > Please Ignore my previous-mail, it was not completed - i will try to delete it.> > > > > > > > > > Am not mixing up the terminologies, though my mail didn't go in details. Your understanding is flawed.> > > > > > > > > > 1. All ideas including the idea of Ahamkara naturally belong to the ideational or causal body, but Ahamkara must be overcome only in the physical body (See point 5.). Astral or Causal-bodied beings (those without a physical/astral body) don't have to fight with the idea of Ahamkara like we do.> > > > > > > > > > > Ahamkaara/ego controls manas

and buddhi also. When manas (sensory-> > > > > > ...they are all guided by the sense of I-ness. That sense of I-ness > > > > > > permeates through all layers of one's individualized consciousness.> > > > > > > > > > 2. Where did you read this up ?> > > > > > > > > > There is a fine line between the sense of I-ness attributed to the Individual Soul and the sense of I-ness derived through the idea of Ahamkara. Even after a Soul is freed of the three bodies, the individuality of the Soul Atom is not destroyed (Resurrection implies that), while it has already given up the idea of Ahamkara including all other ideas.> > > > > > > > > > Individuality of a causal-bodied being is not due to the idea of Ahamkara because "What exists as a part cannot be the whole". Thus, the idea of Ahamkara, being one of the

35 ideas of the Causal-body, doesn't account for neither controls the rest of the 34 ideas. Each idea is independent of another, without requiring another idea to act upon it - otherwise your buddhi would always interfere with the functioning of Mind or Ahamkara or the 5 functions of life-forces and so on.> > > > > > > > > > Essentially, the 35 ideas of causal body are the basic causal forces and are not related as cause-effect to each other. Thus, each is independent of the application of the sense of I-ness derived from Ahamkara. Manas and Buddhi being two of the Causal-ideas, their functioning as well as existence is not "controlled" nor "derived" in any way by the idea of Ahamkara. It is very clear when we see those with sharpest Buddhi or Sharpest Mind still carrying Heaviest Ahamkara, because they didn't work upon that particular idea.> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > But ego/ahamkaara/ I-ness is the very basis of the entire > > > > > > individualized consciousness.> > > > > > > > > > 3. Well, as most Physical-bodied beings cannot see through the Astral/causal cosmoses, it doesn't apply in the same way to the finer Astral and Causal-bodied beings who can always pierce the veil of Maya and see the human activities. Thus, what is "the very basis" of the entire individualized consciousness for a physical-bodied (unenlightened) being is not the same as for an astral/causal bodied being.> > > > > An Astral-bodied being thinks of Manas/sense- consciousness as the very basis of the entire individualized consciousness.> > > > > A Causal-bodied being thinks of Chitta/perceptive- consciousness as the very basis of the entire individualized consciousness.> > > > > However, that individuality is of

the Soul not derived from any idea, which is why it is not lost when the Astral being loses astral consciousness and reincarnates in the Physical body.> > > > > > > > > > As an example, Devatas, with their finer bodies, are able to work through all the beings in all their physical-bodies simultaneously (like Ganesh resides in the Mooladhara, Agni digests the food, and so on..), never getting controlled by Ahamkara that would require them to say that this particular body is "my body" or that one is mine - unless they incarnate in Physical bodies themselves. Devatas are, however, Astral/Causal- bodied beings, so they would attempt to influence the Manas (Spirit-Possession) of the sense-bound worshipper. Pretas on the other hand, would attempt to possess ones' physical body as well as act out their Ahamkara.> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Out of the four

antahkaranas, chitta (remembering or conditioned > > > > > > mind) and ahamkaara (ego or I-ness) are parts of the kaarana > > > > > > sareera (causal body) and remain till the end.> > > > > > > > > > 4. As per the resurrected Soul of Sri Yukteswar in Autobiography of a Yogi -> > > > > > > > > > Causal body is a matrix of 35 ideas, that include 19 ideas comprising Astral body (Chitta, Manas, Buddhi, Ahamkara, 5 functions of knowledge, 5 functions of Action, 5 functions of life-force) and 16 ideas comprising Physical body (16 chemical elements).> > > > > > > > > > Now, as we all know that Physical body expires as a whole, not just one or two of the 16 elements comprising it go away at a time, Astral and Causal bodies are also cast off as a whole in the corresponding cosmic consciousness - instead of

different constituent ideas slipping out of it at different times. Chitta being the staging idea for all other modifications, can be termed as the last to go, when the causal body is finally dropped - hence I wrote as rising above Chitta.> > > > > > > > > > Thus, the idea of Ahamkara is bound with Gross Physical vibrations, > > > > > Manas with Subtle Astral vibrations and > > > > > Chitta with infinitely Subtle Causal Vibrations.> > > > > > > > > > Buddhi being another variable, can be developed or undeveloped irrespective of the other 34. Even illiterate Moodha, through surrender to their Guru, attain freedom from Ahamkara and so on...> > > > > > > > > > BTW, Chitta is not the Conditioned Mind. Chitta does store the residual impressions of all the past incarnations. However, being constituted of Satwa

Guna, it doesn't have any inherent ability to act upon (Rajas) those impressions, just like a container containing an inflammable liquid doesn't automatically burn it down. Sadhana is required for That.> > > > > The Samskaras stored by Chitta, including those of Nidra, Smriti, Vikalpa, Viparyaya, Pramana, correspond to the Tamo Guna, while the Chitta itself is Satva Guna - hence the "Satvic - Tamas" represents the SuperEther tattwa (refer my previous mail). The all-perceiving Satvic Chitta doesn't get conditioned by the Tamo-guni Samskaras it stores.> > > > > Once the Chitta calms down, cleared of all residual impressions, only Satva Guna remains, the intuition becomes coherent and the Soul reflects on itself as distinct from Satva Guna of Prakriti (Chitta), thus realizing its own nature as Brahman.> > > > > > > > > > 5. > > > > > In Patanjali Yoga Sutras:

> > > > > drigadarshanaktyore katmataivasmita -6> > > > > Egoism is the identification of the seer with the instrument of seeing. Patanjali has used Asmita instead of Ahamkara.> > > > > Since astral-bodied beings can use any of the senses like eyes to see, hear, smell, taste and so on (refer Autobiography of a Yogi)... the sense of egoism does not take roots in the astral-body and hence doesn't create Astral Karma. Similarly, Causal bodied beings can use thought to sense everything.> > > > > > > > > > Hence, Egotism has to be rooted out while the consciousness is associated with the Physical Body sensory activities or has Physical Karma.> > > > > > > > > > 6. The idea of Manas, as the controller of sense-consciousness , must be overcome in Astral body, through Vairagya. Read autobiography of a Yogi (chapter 43) where Sri

Yukteswar illustrates that only those beings who cannot be tempted to go back to the pleasing to the eye Astral cosmos are permitted to stay permanently in the Causal cosmos. Pleasing to the eye implies Sense-consciousness which is associated with Manas.> > > > > > > > > > In Patanjali Yoga Sutras also it is mentioned in the same manner :> > > > > > > > > > dristanushravika vishaya vitrishnasya vashikara samjnavairagyam -15-> > > > > > > > > > That effect which comes to these who have given up their thirst after objects, either seen or heard, and which wills to control the objects, is non-attachment. Vivekananda has commented that Vairagya is the only way to freedom.> > > > > > > > > > This is to be accomplished by transferring the consciousness to Astral-Body and working out the Astral Karma or

otherwise as an astral-bodied being.> > > > > > > > > > 7. Patanjali Yoga Sutras:> > > > > yogashchittavrittin irodhah -2-> > > > > Thus, extinguishing all the movements of Chitta is called "Yoga". > > > > > > > > > > This is to be accomplished by transferring the consciousness to Causal-Body and working out the Causal Karma or otherwise as a causal-bodied being.> > > > > > > > > > I hope this clarifies.> > > > > > > > > > Regards,> > > > > Nitish

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|| OM TAT SAT ||

Namaskar,

What inspired me for a long time was the Cosmic-consciousness experience of

my friend - a colleague in the company I used to work.

He told me, when he was a child, he used to catch various colored birds at night

(these were astral projections). Due to his past good karma, he had his

consciousness expanded throughout the earth, and later on, throughout the

Physical cosmos. He is 2 years elder to me, and proficient in the Hatha Yoga

(like Mahabheda, Mahamudra, YoniMudra etc).

I have had many-many spiritual experiences in past few years, which I don't

share except 1-2 people around me including this guy.

 

Regards,

Nitish

 

, " suvarnatejas " <sattvatejas wrote:

>

>

> Namaste Nitishji:

>

> If I may ask you humbly, are you writing all of this

> from the depth of your personal experience or by synthesizing

> what has been written by others. Since joining this group

> many of us have been inspired by the personal spiritual accounts

> of a few. If you could share yours, it would be all the more

> inspiring to us.

>

> Regards!

>

> , " yeeahoo_99 " <nitish.arya@> wrote:

> >

> > || OM TAT SAT ||

> > Dear Utpalji and Narasimha,

> >

> > If any of you is offended due to my being explicit with words - it also

shows that you people have a lot of scope in learning of new ideas!

> >

> > > The second statement says something radical. Ahamkaara and I Ness

> > > is completely two different identity.

> > > your second statment is a departure from almost every Gnyaani has

> > > to say.

> >

> > It is none of my fault that this conflict arose and continues. Here is

the reason.

> >

> > In my first mail (#2704) itself it is explicitly written, that Patanjali

has used the exact word " asmita " for Egoism - which is the I-ness (Ahamkara) in

Physical body consciousness - that causes identification of the seer with the

instrument of seeing i.e. Physical senses.

> >

> > > In Patanjali Yoga Sutras:

> > > drigadarshanaktyorekatmataivasmita -6

> > > Egoism is the identification of the seer with the instrument of

> > > seeing.

> >

> > >>> Patanjali has used Asmita instead of Ahamkara.

> >

> >

> > PATANJALI has not used the word AHAMKARA anywhere in his PRECISE AND

ESTEEMED sanskrit dissertation on YOGA - he has chosen to use the word ASMITA

everywhere. E.g.

> >

> > 1. vitarka vicharanandasmita rupanugamat samprajnatah -

> >

> > SASMITA SAMADHI

> >

> > 2. From Lahiri Mahasayas' Commentary on Patanjali -

> >

> > avidyasmitaragadveshabhinibeshah panchakleshah

> >

> > " Avidya " [ignorance], " asmita " [egotism], " raga " [attraction or

> > liking], " dvesha " [hatred or disliking] and " abhinibesha " [engrossment] --

these are the five types of afflictions.

> >

> > Thus, using " Ahamkara " while talking about Sankhya and using " Asmita "

while talking about Patanjali Sutras brought in the conflict. In any case, what

is called as Ahamkara in 24 principles of Sankhya is actually Asmita, which can

be very-loosely pitted as Ahamkara.

> >

> > The idea stated by me was on firm grounds - with reference to Patanjali

Sutras and the words of Sri Yukteswar in Autobiography of a Yogi. And this idea

is there in my first mail, though not the exact table:

> >

> > PHYSICAL I-NESS (AHAMKARA) = ASMITA = Physical Egotism

> > ASTRAL I-NESS (AHAMKARA) = MANAS = Astral attachments

> > CAUSAL I-NESS (AHAMKARA) = CHITTA = Causal Perceptions

> >

> > Also, one of the 2 reasons that I had given on why Astral/Causal Body

beings don't have sense of Asmita as a dominant sense of I-ness is this:

> >

> > > Since astral-bodied beings can use any of the senses like eyes to

> > > see, hear, smell, taste and so on (refer Autobiography of a

> > > Yogi)... the sense of egoism does not take roots in the astral-body > and

hence doesn't create Astral Karma.

> > > Similarly, Causal bodied beings can use thought to sense everything.

> >

> > > Hence, Egotism has to be rooted out while the consciousness is

> > > associated with the Physical Body sensory activities or has

> > > Physical Karma.

> >

> > Lastly, extending upon this idea further, there are beings in the Astral

cosmos who have never been in Physical forms - We Physical beings are not the

only ones in the cycles of creation. While they will still have the idea of

" Asmita " in their causal bodies, but they will always be repelled by the

grosser-vibrations of Sensual experiences in Physical Bodies/Cosmos, and hence

would not incur any Physical Karma due to " Asmita " .

> >

> > --------------------------------

> > [ TO ALL IN THE LIST ]

> > - If the above explanation resolves the issue, well and good. Whether it

does or doesn't, this is my last mail on this topic because I had said all I had

to in the first mail itself - whether you read it or missed it.

> > You may read a detailed article on this topic that I will write as and

when time allows me to do so.

> >

> >

> > [ TO UTPALJI ]

> > - Am not a jnani.

> > But there are Jnanis, who know that 6th tattwa doesn't exist.

> > That is why there is a significant departure.

> >

> > [ TO NARASIMHA ]

> >

> > > So you are accepting that there as " I-ness of manas " and " I-ness of >

chitta " . I-ness=aham-kaara.

> >

> > There was never a time that I didn't, and I have no control over what

meaning you derive from my words.

> >

> > > I still think this is a case of a Pascal language programmer

> > > unfamiliar with C language misunderstanding some software written

> > > in C language and passing comments. But unfortunately that

> > > programmer seems to be hasty in using labels like " flawed " ,

> > > " incorrect " , " incoherent " etc about other programmers whose

> > > language he is unable to understand.

> >

> > The power of mind needs no language to express itself...If a Programmer

just understands this much, he will become the Architect!

> > Also, while a Programmer always assumes that every other person he

encounters is a Programmer, an Architect knows that every other person is an

Architect in making. Hope you become an Architect one day!

> >

> > Regards,

> > Nitish

> >

> > , " vedic_pathak " <vedic_pathak@> wrote:

> > >

> > > Namaste Nitish ji,

> > >

> > > >Ahamkara is an idea in Causal-body, so it is present all the time >till

the

> > > >soul is freed of the three body containers.

> > >

> > >

> > > > " Ahamkara isn't the dominant cause of I-ness in Astral/Causal >bodies "

> > >

> > > I am not getting your point here. you agree in the above given first

statement that Ahamkaara is an Idea present in all three bodies and remains TILL

the soul is freed from all the three containers.

> > >

> > > The second statement says something radical. Ahamkaara and I Ness is

completely two different identity.

> > >

> > > your second statment is a departure from almost every Gnyaani has to say.

> > >

> > > I pray...you please clarify your understanding of Ahamkaara and I Ness.

> > >

> > > looking forward to explanation of the above.

> > >

> > > Thanks & Regards,

> > >

> > > Utpal

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > , " yeeahoo_99 " <nitish.arya@> wrote:

> > > >

> > > > || OM TAT SAT ||

> > > > Namaskar Rajarshi,

> > > >

> > > > Thanks for your contribution - all you have done is to prove what is

already known.

> > > >

> > > > > Therefore, Ahamkara exists even in beyond the death for a normal

> > > > > human being. Therewfore, Ahamkara is present in the astral/casual

> > > > > plane as well.

> > > >

> > > > 1. Do you realize what is being talked about and what you have ended up

proving ? Wherein did I deny that Ahamkara is not present in Astral/Causal

bodies ?

> > > >

> > > > Ahamkara is an idea in Causal-body, so it is present all the time

till the soul is freed of the three body containers.

> > > >

> > > > 2. OTOH, What I have stated, with reference to Patanjali Sutras, is that

Ahamkara is " SUPPRESSED " in Astral and Causal bodies. Meaning

> > > >

> > > > " Ahamkara isn't the dominant cause of I-ness in Astral/Causal bodies "

> > > >

> > > > And as a result wouldn't contribute to the acquisition of

Astral/Causal Karma.

> > > >

> > > > Why is Ahamkara not dominant in Astral/Causal bodies ?

> > > > The reason I have already given in the first mail in sufficient

detail.

> > > >

> > > > IF THE AHAMKARA IS NOT SUPPRESSED AFTER PHYSICAL DEATH, THE PERSON

WILL KEEP CARRYING THE SAME EARTHLY IDENTITY TO THE ASTRAL PLANES, AND BRING IT

BACK AT REBIRTH TO THE EARTH. AND THEN, HE WILL RECLAIM HIS LOST TERRITORY AND

WEALTH - THE CONFLICTS THAT WILL ARISE WILL BE BEYOND ANYBODY'S CONTROL.

> > > > THUS, THE BEAUTIFUL ASTRAL SPHERE ARE SENSED BY THE I-NESS OF MANAS,

while CAUSAL SPHERE ARE SENSED BY THE I-NESS OF CHITTA.

> > > >

> > > > Please read more of " Sri Sri Paramahansa Yogananda " , he has mentioned

about all these things (what happens to a soul at death and so on) in such a

simplistic manner in his Gita commentaries, that even a layman can understand

it.

> > > >

> > > > Regards,

> > > > Nitish

> > > >

> > > > , rajarshi nandy <rajarshi14@> wrote:

> > > > >

> > > > > Namaste

> > > > >  

> > > > > Proof by Contradiction

> > > > > A person who lives as a farmer, should, after death, remain a farmer

in the astral cosmos, and after subsequent astral death, should be reborn as the

same farmer with the same name and same identity as in his previous earthly

incarnation.

> > > > >  

> > > > > Wrong example.

> > > > >  

> > > > > A person after his death, depending on his tendencies in this life and

level of spiritual evolution will retain some aspects of his personality, which

means a person who loves music intensely will also in his next birth have an

affinity for music. The conditions of the birth and inbetween period depends

both on his inherent samaskaras as well the karmic repurcussion. It not, never,

entirely once choice. It a mix and match between what one wants and what one

deserves. IN all cases, to be able to retain the samskara Ahamakara is needed.

Therefore, Ahamkara exists even in beyond the death for a normal human being.

Therewfore, Ahamkara is present in the astral/casual plane as well.

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > Corollary #1:

> > > > > A Devata as an Astral-being has I-ness due to his Manas, and doesn't

have Ahamkara for the work done by him in all the various physical bodies.

> > > > >

> > > > >  

> > > > > This example becomse invalid since the analysis of the first example

itself in incorrect.

> > > > >  

> > > > > -Regards

> > > > >  Rajarshi

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > The upsurge (of consciousness) is Bhairava - Shiva Sutra

> > > > >

> > > > > --- On Sun, 4/10/09, yeeahoo_99 <nitish.arya@> wrote:

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > yeeahoo_99 <nitish.arya@>

> > > > > Re: Gyan Marga

> > > > >

> > > > > Sunday, 4 October, 2009, 9:40 AM

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >  

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > || OM TAT SAT ||

> > > > > Dear Narasimha and Sundeep,

> > > > >

> > > > > Thanks for your feedback. I thought, I had written a quite clear and

explicit mail, but your reply has proved that it needs to be put down in at

least 10-fold simpler words.

> > > > >

> > > > > You read my mail, but picked up notions in an incorrect, incoherent

manner, and are reading beyond what is written in my mail.

> > > > >

> > > > > To prove my point, I would ask Sundeep to read my previous mail on

" Gyan Marg " followed by your reply and see if he also picks up the notions in

the same manner as you did ?

> > > > >

> > > > > The only addition required is an example:

> > > > >

> > > > > Your hypothesis

> > > > > Ahamkara is the only I-ness there is for all the beings in all the 3

cosmoses i.e. all the Physical, Astral and Causal-bodied beings.

> > > > >

> > > > > Proof by Contradiction

> > > > > A person who lives as a farmer, should, after death, remain a farmer

in the astral cosmos, and after subsequent astral death, should be reborn as the

same farmer with the same name and same identity as in his previous earthly

incarnation.

> > > > > This is not the case, people don't even remember what they were in

previous birth, and start their life afresh in a new earthly body

> > > > > => Contradiction

> > > > > => the original hypothesis is wrong

> > > > > => Ahamkara is not the only sense of I-ness applicable to all beings

in all the 3 cosmoses.

> > > > >

> > > > > Inference #1:

> > > > > => Ahamkara is dominant sense of I-ness in Physical Cosmos.

> > > > > => Manas is dominant sense of I-ness in Astral Cosmos.

> > > > > => Chitta is dominant sense of I-ness in Causal Cosmos.

> > > > >

> > > > > Corollary #1:

> > > > > A Devata as an Astral-being has I-ness due to his Manas, and doesn't

have Ahamkara for the work done by him in all the various physical bodies.

> > > > >

> > > > > Inference #1 and Corollary #1 is what I had written in my previous

mail on this topic.

> > > > >

> > > > > There are many other ways to prove the contradiction on this

hypothesis (e.g. Powers of beings in physical cosmos < those in astral cosmos <

those in causal cosmos).

> > > > >

> > > > > Your made two additional points that are also invalid. My comments on

that is:

> > > > >

> > > > > 1. I-ness derived from Ahamkara,Manas and Chitta has no innate power

to Control any other idea of the 35 Causal-ideas.

> > > > > Reason:

> > > > > Soul is the only Truth and controller, everything else has an unreal

and derived existence. Thus, all the 35 ideas co-ordinate with each other, and

not control each other.

> > > > >

> > > > > 2. A new-born child or a person in Hypnotic-Trance, is able to use his

sense-consciousness coherently due to the astral-bodys' sense of I-ness derived

from Manas, that coordinates the senses.

> > > > > He has no Buddhi or discriminating faculty to interact with manas

(sensory-motor mind) and tell it what to do - as you have proposed. Thus, Manas

co-ordinates the senses due to its own sense of I-ness, not due to Buddhi.

> > > > >

> > > > > I hope this clarifies.

> > > > >

> > > > > Regards,

> > > > > Nitish

> > > > >

> > > > > , Narasimha PVR Rao <pvr@> wrote:

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Namaste,

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Out of the 19 or 35 attributes of individualized consciousness,

which one gives the idea " I am this " or " I am that " ? Of course, it is ahamkaraka

or I-ness or egosense or ego principle!

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Is one's idea of " I am this " limited to a physical body? Of course

not! If someone says " so and so person is a terrible person " , one may feel

offended or if someone says " so and so person is a great person " , one may feel

elated. One's ahamkara or I-ness is identifying with the criticism or praise,

even though nothing is being done to the physical body and only a name is being

used. When somebody calls one by name from distance (as opposed to patting on

the physical body and calling), one's consciousness may still think " I am being

called " and one may turn towards the caller. As in these examples, one's I-ness

does of course bind itself to more than a body.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Suppose one gets a dream while sleeping. One may have forgotten

totally about the physical body in the dream! One may think of something else as

" I " . In dreams, one may see oneself as a different body or may not even " see "

onself, but still one may have the sense that so and so thing is happening to

" me " . So, even when the mind is drawn away from the physical body, there is

still a notion of " I am this " (I-ness) in a dream. That is ahamkara or I-ness or

ego principle.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Your idea that ahamkara is limited to physical body is absolutely

unacceptable. Ahamkara or I-ness extends beyond the physical body.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Also, your idea that deities like Agni do not have ahamkara (I-ness)

because they do not have physical bodies is incorrect. Of course, Agni does have

an I-ness and thinks " I am Agni and this is what I do " . If he did not have that

I-ness, he would not do everything he does.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Moreover, the 19 or 35 ideas of individualized consciousness do

interact with each other, whether we use the word " control " for some of those

interactions or not. For example, buddhi (intellectual/ discriminating mind)

judges various past experiences, interacts with manas (sensory-motor mind) and

tells it what to do. Then manas interacts with karmendriyas (organs of action)

and makes them do various things. My buddhi determined what to write and my

manas told my hands to type this and I ended up typing.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Your point about " what exists as a part cannot be the whole " is

totally out of place. The sense of I-ness, the memories and conditioning, the

logical mind, the sensory-motor mind, karmendriyas etc are all different parts

of individualized consciousness and they play different roles while interacting

with each other in different ways. Some of those interactions may be deemed to

be controls.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > > Am not mixing up the terminologies, though my mail didn't

> > > > > > > go in details. Your understanding is flawed.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > 2. Where did you read this up ?

> > > > > >

> > > > > > One does not " read up " these things in a single place. There are

different abstractions and breakdowns of what happens in individualized

consciousness. There are several sources that speak of different aspects of this

knowledge in slightly different terms. One will assimilate this knowledge better

if one reads as many sources as possible and contemplates.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Best regards,

> > > > > > Narasimha

> > > > > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -

> > > > > > Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ homam

> > > > > > Do Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ tarpana

> > > > > > Spirituality: http://groups. / group/vedic- wisdom

> > > > > > Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro. home.comcast. net

> > > > > > Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAst rologer.org

> > > > > > Jyotish writings: http://groups. / group/JyotishWri tings

> > > > > > Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagan nath.org

> > > > > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -

> > > > > >

> > > > > > ---- yeeahoo_99 <nitish.arya@ ...> wrote:

> > > > > > > || OM TAT SAT ||

> > > > > > > Dear Narasimha,

> > > > > > > Please Ignore my previous-mail, it was not completed - i will try

to delete it.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Am not mixing up the terminologies, though my mail didn't go in

details. Your understanding is flawed.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > 1. All ideas including the idea of Ahamkara naturally belong to

the ideational or causal body, but Ahamkara must be overcome only in the

physical body (See point 5.). Astral or Causal-bodied beings (those without a

physical/astral body) don't have to fight with the idea of Ahamkara like we do.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Ahamkaara/ego controls manas and buddhi also. When manas

(sensory-

> > > > > > > > ...they are all guided by the sense of I-ness. That sense of

I-ness

> > > > > > > > permeates through all layers of one's individualized

consciousness.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > 2. Where did you read this up ?

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > There is a fine line between the sense of I-ness attributed to the

Individual Soul and the sense of I-ness derived through the idea of Ahamkara.

Even after a Soul is freed of the three bodies, the individuality of the Soul

Atom is not destroyed (Resurrection implies that), while it has already given up

the idea of Ahamkara including all other ideas.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Individuality of a causal-bodied being is not due to the idea of

Ahamkara because " What exists as a part cannot be the whole " . Thus, the idea of

Ahamkara, being one of the 35 ideas of the Causal-body, doesn't account for

neither controls the rest of the 34 ideas. Each idea is independent of another,

without requiring another idea to act upon it - otherwise your buddhi would

always interfere with the functioning of Mind or Ahamkara or the 5 functions of

life-forces and so on.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Essentially, the 35 ideas of causal body are the basic causal

forces and are not related as cause-effect to each other. Thus, each is

independent of the application of the sense of I-ness derived from Ahamkara.

Manas and Buddhi being two of the Causal-ideas, their functioning as well as

existence is not " controlled " nor " derived " in any way by the idea of Ahamkara.

It is very clear when we see those with sharpest Buddhi or Sharpest Mind still

carrying Heaviest Ahamkara, because they didn't work upon that particular idea.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > But ego/ahamkaara/ I-ness is the very basis of the entire

> > > > > > > > individualized consciousness.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > 3. Well, as most Physical-bodied beings cannot see through the

Astral/causal cosmoses, it doesn't apply in the same way to the finer Astral and

Causal-bodied beings who can always pierce the veil of Maya and see the human

activities. Thus, what is " the very basis " of the entire individualized

consciousness for a physical-bodied (unenlightened) being is not the same as for

an astral/causal bodied being.

> > > > > > > An Astral-bodied being thinks of Manas/sense- consciousness as the

very basis of the entire individualized consciousness.

> > > > > > > A Causal-bodied being thinks of Chitta/perceptive- consciousness

as the very basis of the entire individualized consciousness.

> > > > > > > However, that individuality is of the Soul not derived from any

idea, which is why it is not lost when the Astral being loses astral

consciousness and reincarnates in the Physical body.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > As an example, Devatas, with their finer bodies, are able to work

through all the beings in all their physical-bodies simultaneously (like Ganesh

resides in the Mooladhara, Agni digests the food, and so on..), never getting

controlled by Ahamkara that would require them to say that this particular body

is " my body " or that one is mine - unless they incarnate in Physical bodies

themselves. Devatas are, however, Astral/Causal- bodied beings, so they would

attempt to influence the Manas (Spirit-Possession) of the sense-bound

worshipper. Pretas on the other hand, would attempt to possess ones' physical

body as well as act out their Ahamkara.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Out of the four antahkaranas, chitta (remembering or conditioned

> > > > > > > > mind) and ahamkaara (ego or I-ness) are parts of the kaarana

> > > > > > > > sareera (causal body) and remain till the end.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > 4. As per the resurrected Soul of Sri Yukteswar in Autobiography

of a Yogi -

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Causal body is a matrix of 35 ideas, that include 19 ideas

comprising Astral body (Chitta, Manas, Buddhi, Ahamkara, 5 functions of

knowledge, 5 functions of Action, 5 functions of life-force) and 16 ideas

comprising Physical body (16 chemical elements).

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Now, as we all know that Physical body expires as a whole, not

just one or two of the 16 elements comprising it go away at a time, Astral and

Causal bodies are also cast off as a whole in the corresponding cosmic

consciousness - instead of different constituent ideas slipping out of it at

different times. Chitta being the staging idea for all other modifications, can

be termed as the last to go, when the causal body is finally dropped - hence I

wrote as rising above Chitta.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Thus, the idea of Ahamkara is bound with Gross Physical

vibrations,

> > > > > > > Manas with Subtle Astral vibrations and

> > > > > > > Chitta with infinitely Subtle Causal Vibrations.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Buddhi being another variable, can be developed or undeveloped

irrespective of the other 34. Even illiterate Moodha, through surrender to their

Guru, attain freedom from Ahamkara and so on...

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > BTW, Chitta is not the Conditioned Mind. Chitta does store the

residual impressions of all the past incarnations. However, being constituted of

Satwa Guna, it doesn't have any inherent ability to act upon (Rajas) those

impressions, just like a container containing an inflammable liquid doesn't

automatically burn it down. Sadhana is required for That.

> > > > > > > The Samskaras stored by Chitta, including those of Nidra, Smriti,

Vikalpa, Viparyaya, Pramana, correspond to the Tamo Guna, while the Chitta

itself is Satva Guna - hence the " Satvic - Tamas " represents the SuperEther

tattwa (refer my previous mail). The all-perceiving Satvic Chitta doesn't get

conditioned by the Tamo-guni Samskaras it stores.

> > > > > > > Once the Chitta calms down, cleared of all residual impressions,

only Satva Guna remains, the intuition becomes coherent and the Soul reflects on

itself as distinct from Satva Guna of Prakriti (Chitta), thus realizing its own

nature as Brahman.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > 5.

> > > > > > > In Patanjali Yoga Sutras:

> > > > > > > drigadarshanaktyore katmataivasmita -6

> > > > > > > Egoism is the identification of the seer with the instrument of

seeing. Patanjali has used Asmita instead of Ahamkara.

> > > > > > > Since astral-bodied beings can use any of the senses like eyes to

see, hear, smell, taste and so on (refer Autobiography of a Yogi)... the sense

of egoism does not take roots in the astral-body and hence doesn't create Astral

Karma. Similarly, Causal bodied beings can use thought to sense everything.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Hence, Egotism has to be rooted out while the consciousness is

associated with the Physical Body sensory activities or has Physical Karma.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > 6. The idea of Manas, as the controller of sense-consciousness ,

must be overcome in Astral body, through Vairagya. Read autobiography of a Yogi

(chapter 43) where Sri Yukteswar illustrates that only those beings who cannot

be tempted to go back to the pleasing to the eye Astral cosmos are permitted to

stay permanently in the Causal cosmos. Pleasing to the eye implies

Sense-consciousness which is associated with Manas.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > In Patanjali Yoga Sutras also it is mentioned in the same manner :

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > dristanushravika vishaya vitrishnasya vashikara samjnavairagyam

-15-

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > That effect which comes to these who have given up their thirst

after objects, either seen or heard, and which wills to control the objects, is

non-attachment. Vivekananda has commented that Vairagya is the only way to

freedom.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > This is to be accomplished by transferring the consciousness to

Astral-Body and working out the Astral Karma or otherwise as an astral-bodied

being.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > 7. Patanjali Yoga Sutras:

> > > > > > > yogashchittavrittin irodhah -2-

> > > > > > > Thus, extinguishing all the movements of Chitta is called " Yoga " .

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > This is to be accomplished by transferring the consciousness to

Causal-Body and working out the Causal Karma or otherwise as a causal-bodied

being.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > I hope this clarifies.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Regards,

> > > > > > > Nitish

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > , Narasimha PVR Rao <pvr@>

wrote:

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Namaste Nitish,

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > I am afraid you are mixing up terminologies. For example, ego or

ahamkaara (sense of I-ness) is not limited to the physical body, but extends to

subtle body and causal body as well. In fact, ego resides in the causal body and

affects other bodies. Out of the four antahkaranas, chitta (remembering or

conditioned mind) and ahamkaara (ego or I-ness) are parts of the kaarana sareera

(causal body) and remain till the end.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Ahamkaara/ego controls manas and buddhi also. When manas

(sensory-motor mind) observes sensory inputs or buddhi (intellectual or thinking

mind) analyzes current and past observations of mind or chitta (remembering or

conditioned mind) stores various observations or retrieves previously stored

observations, they are all guided by the sense of I-ness. That sense of I-ness

permeates through all layers of one's individualized consciousness.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Upanishads and various scriptures have broken down the

individualized consciousness into various groups by functionality, like five

koshas, three sareeras, five praanas, five jnaanendriyas, five karmendriyas,

four antahkaranas, six/seven chakras etc. But ego/ahamkaara/ I-ness is the very

basis of the entire individualized consciousness.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Though the word jnaana means different things to different

people, a jnaana yogi pursues Self by the path of contemplation and

discrimination. When a jnaana yogi reaches the final target, all bodies and

koshas are merged in cosmos.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Best regards,

> > > > > > > > Narasimha

> > > > > > > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -

> > > > > > > > Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/

homam

> > > > > > > > Do Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/

tarpana

> > > > > > > > Spirituality: http://groups. / group/vedic- wisdom

> > > > > > > > Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro. home.comcast. net

> > > > > > > > Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAst rologer.org

> > > > > > > > Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagan nath.org

> > > > > > > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > ---- yeeahoo_99 <nitish.arya@ > wrote:

> > > > > > > > > || OM TAT SAT ||

> > > > > > > > > Dear Narasimha,

> > > > > > > > > In my opinion, there are three distinct phases that lead the

sould to rise above Ego, Mind and Chitta - corresponding to the three bodies

physical (Sthoola), astral (Sookshma) and causal (Karana) resp.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Rising above Ego is Jnana - Merging Physical body in Physical

cosmos

> > > > > > > > > Rising above Mind is Vairagya - Merging Astral body in Astral

cosmos

> > > > > > > > > Rising above Chitta is Yoga - Merging Causal body in Causal

cosmos

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Finally, becoming established in Para-Brahman is YogaArudha.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Your comments.

> > > > > > > > > Regards,

> > > > > > > > > Nitish

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > , " Narasimha P.V.R. Rao "

<pvr@> wrote:

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Namaste,

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Gyaani or jnaani is a wise and learned person, who may or

may not debate (or even engage) with others. One may become a gyaani using

either gyaana yoga or bhakti yoga or karma yoga or raaja yoga.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Gyaana/jnaana yoga is a path of pursuing the Supreme through

intellectual analysis. One pursuing that path may or may not debate with others

and may or may not read many scriptures, but one will analyze and debate within

oneself. One starts with the basic axioms (e.g. Self is imperishable and without

a beginning or an end). One will go on eliminating things that one is aware of

as not being Self. For example, body has a beginning and end and is perishable.

So it is not Self. One introspects like this and, though the process of

elimination, finally finds the true Self. That is gyaana yoga. Pure gyaana yoga

is very difficult to follow in this age.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Vichaara (contemplation) is the process of sadhana for an

adherer of pure gyaana yoga.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > However, the gyaana (knowledge of Self) achieved by such a

person at the end is not really different from the knowledge of Self achieved by

a person following another path.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Best regards,

> > > > > > > > > > Narasimha

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > Try the new India Homepage.

http://in./trynew

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

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|| OM TAT SAT ||

Namaskar Rajarshi,

 

> Is that the only book you have based all your fancy ideas on? Maybe > its time

for you go back to some more genuine reading with a open

> mind. It will do you a world of good.

 

Before you achieve the state of a Paramahansa like Yogananda did, you are

nothing more than a crackpot commenting on " Bhagavad Gita " , that is well beyond

your spiritual comprehension and spiritual achievements.

 

Regards,

Nitish

 

, rajarshi nandy <rajarshi14 wrote:

>

> Namaste Nitish

>  

> Check below.

>  

> -Regards

>  Rajarshi

>

>

>

> The upsurge (of consciousness) is Bhairava - Shiva Sutra

>

> --- On Sun, 4/10/09, yeeahoo_99 <nitish.arya wrote:

>

>

> yeeahoo_99 <nitish.arya

> Re: Gyan Marga

>

> Sunday, 4 October, 2009, 4:45 PM

>

>

>  

>

>

>

> || OM TAT SAT ||

> Namaskar Rajarshi,

>

> Thanks for your contribution - all you have done is to prove what is already

known.

>

> You had already, during you very first mail stated that everything is already

known.  So then why are you wastingme here? -:)

>

> > Therefore, Ahamkara exists even in beyond the death for a normal

> > human being. Therewfore, Ahamkara is present in the astral/casual

> > plane as well.

>

> 1. Do you realize what is being talked about and what you have ended up

proving ?

>  

> Maybe, most people here realize it better than you do! Thats what makes your

statements sound so incorrigible funny to say the least.

>  

> Wherein did I deny that Ahamkara is not present in Astral/Causal bodies ?

>

> You did deny it quite vehemently. Kindly check yourolder mails. You make a

statement A then in the course of discussion you conveniently change it to B and

then jump around assuming ridiculous airs. At least, try and remember what you

yourself speak. Go back and re check you own mails here.

>

> Why is Ahamkara not dominant in Astral/Causal bodies ?

> The reason I have already given in the first mail in sufficient detail.

>  

>

> Thats again your assumption. Ahamkara is indeed a dominant force in all planes

untill one reaches a state beyond ego.

>

> BRING IT BACK AT REBIRTH TO THE EARTH. AND THEN, HE WILL RECLAIM HIS LOST

TERRITORY AND WEALTH - THE CONFLICTS THAT WILL ARISE WILL BE BEYOND ANYBODY'S

CONTROL.

>  

>  

> This shows that you have not understood even 1 percent of what has been told

to you till now by other in this forum, maybe because you have already decided

to close your mind.

>  

> Ahamkara is NOT confied to acquiring or not acquiring of weath. THE specifics

will depend on the law of karma. The essential sense of I-ness will very much

remain in ALL planes, the speciifcs gets filled in by karmic repurcussions and

desires.

>  

>  

>

> THUS, THE BEAUTIFUL ASTRAL SPHERE ARE SENSED BY THE I-NESS OF MANAS, while

CAUSAL SPHERE ARE SENSED BY THE I-NESS OF CHITTA.

>  

> Any I-ness is Ahamkara. Period.

>

>

> i Sri Paramahansa Yogananda " , he has mentioned about all these things (what

happens to a soul at death and so on) in such a simplistic manner in his Gita

commentaries, that even a layman can understand it.

>  

> Is that the only book you have based all your fancy ideas on? Maybe its time

for you go back to some more genuine reading with a open mind. It will do you a

world of good.

>

>

> Regards,

> Nitish

>

> , rajarshi nandy <rajarshi14@ ...> wrote:

> >

> > Namaste

> >  

> > Proof by Contradiction

> > A person who lives as a farmer, should, after death, remain a farmer in the

astral cosmos, and after subsequent astral death, should be reborn as the same

farmer with the same name and same identity as in his previous earthly

incarnation.

> >  

> > Wrong example.

> >  

> > A person after his death, depending on his tendencies in this life and level

of spiritual evolution will retain some aspects of his personality, which means

a person who loves music intensely will also in his next birth have an affinity

for music. The conditions of the birth and inbetween period depends both on his

inherent samaskaras as well the karmic repurcussion. It not, never, entirely

once choice. It a mix and match between what one wants and what one deserves. IN

all cases, to be able to retain the samskara Ahamakara is needed. Therefore,

Ahamkara exists even in beyond the death for a normal human being. Therewfore,

Ahamkara is present in the astral/casual plane as well.

> >

> >

> > Corollary #1:

> > A Devata as an Astral-being has I-ness due to his Manas, and doesn't have

Ahamkara for the work done by him in all the various physical bodies.

> >

> >  

> > This example becomse invalid since the analysis of the first example itself

in incorrect.

> >  

> > -Regards

> >  Rajarshi

> >

> >

> >

> > The upsurge (of consciousness) is Bhairava - Shiva Sutra

> >

> > --- On Sun, 4/10/09, yeeahoo_99 <nitish.arya@ ...> wrote:

> >

> >

> > yeeahoo_99 <nitish.arya@ ...>

> > Re: Gyan Marga

> >

> > Sunday, 4 October, 2009, 9:40 AM

> >

> >

> >  

> >

> >

> >

> > || OM TAT SAT ||

> > Dear Narasimha and Sundeep,

> >

> > Thanks for your feedback. I thought, I had written a quite clear and

explicit mail, but your reply has proved that it needs to be put down in at

least 10-fold simpler words.

> >

> > You read my mail, but picked up notions in an incorrect, incoherent manner,

and are reading beyond what is written in my mail.

> >

> > To prove my point, I would ask Sundeep to read my previous mail on " Gyan

Marg " followed by your reply and see if he also picks up the notions in the same

manner as you did ?

> >

> > The only addition required is an example:

> >

> > Your hypothesis

> > Ahamkara is the only I-ness there is for all the beings in all the 3

cosmoses i.e. all the Physical, Astral and Causal-bodied beings.

> >

> > Proof by Contradiction

> > A person who lives as a farmer, should, after death, remain a farmer in the

astral cosmos, and after subsequent astral death, should be reborn as the same

farmer with the same name and same identity as in his previous earthly

incarnation.

> > This is not the case, people don't even remember what they were in previous

birth, and start their life afresh in a new earthly body

> > => Contradiction

> > => the original hypothesis is wrong

> > => Ahamkara is not the only sense of I-ness applicable to all beings in all

the 3 cosmoses.

> >

> > Inference #1:

> > => Ahamkara is dominant sense of I-ness in Physical Cosmos.

> > => Manas is dominant sense of I-ness in Astral Cosmos.

> > => Chitta is dominant sense of I-ness in Causal Cosmos.

> >

> > Corollary #1:

> > A Devata as an Astral-being has I-ness due to his Manas, and doesn't have

Ahamkara for the work done by him in all the various physical bodies.

> >

> > Inference #1 and Corollary #1 is what I had written in my previous mail on

this topic.

> >

> > There are many other ways to prove the contradiction on this hypothesis

(e.g. Powers of beings in physical cosmos < those in astral cosmos < those in

causal cosmos).

> >

> > Your made two additional points that are also invalid. My comments on that

is:

> >

> > 1. I-ness derived from Ahamkara,Manas and Chitta has no innate power to

Control any other idea of the 35 Causal-ideas.

> > Reason:

> > Soul is the only Truth and controller, everything else has an unreal and

derived existence. Thus, all the 35 ideas co-ordinate with each other, and not

control each other.

> >

> > 2. A new-born child or a person in Hypnotic-Trance, is able to use his

sense-consciousness coherently due to the astral-bodys' sense of I-ness derived

from Manas, that coordinates the senses.

> > He has no Buddhi or discriminating faculty to interact with manas

(sensory-motor mind) and tell it what to do - as you have proposed. Thus, Manas

co-ordinates the senses due to its own sense of I-ness, not due to Buddhi.

> >

> > I hope this clarifies.

> >

> > Regards,

> > Nitish

> >

> > , Narasimha PVR Rao <pvr@> wrote:

> > >

> > > Namaste,

> > >

> > > Out of the 19 or 35 attributes of individualized consciousness, which one

gives the idea " I am this " or " I am that " ? Of course, it is ahamkaraka or I-ness

or egosense or ego principle!

> > >

> > > Is one's idea of " I am this " limited to a physical body? Of course not! If

someone says " so and so person is a terrible person " , one may feel offended or

if someone says " so and so person is a great person " , one may feel elated. One's

ahamkara or I-ness is identifying with the criticism or praise, even though

nothing is being done to the physical body and only a name is being used. When

somebody calls one by name from distance (as opposed to patting on the physical

body and calling), one's consciousness may still think " I am being called " and

one may turn towards the caller. As in these examples, one's I-ness does of

course bind itself to more than a body.

> > >

> > > Suppose one gets a dream while sleeping. One may have forgotten totally

about the physical body in the dream! One may think of something else as " I " . In

dreams, one may see oneself as a different body or may not even " see " onself,

but still one may have the sense that so and so thing is happening to " me " . So,

even when the mind is drawn away from the physical body, there is still a notion

of " I am this " (I-ness) in a dream. That is ahamkara or I-ness or ego principle.

> > >

> > > Your idea that ahamkara is limited to physical body is absolutely

unacceptable. Ahamkara or I-ness extends beyond the physical body.

> > >

> > > Also, your idea that deities like Agni do not have ahamkara (I-ness)

because they do not have physical bodies is incorrect. Of course, Agni does have

an I-ness and thinks " I am Agni and this is what I do " . If he did not have that

I-ness, he would not do everything he does.

> > >

> > > Moreover, the 19 or 35 ideas of individualized consciousness do interact

with each other, whether we use the word " control " for some of those

interactions or not. For example, buddhi (intellectual/ discriminating mind)

judges various past experiences, interacts with manas (sensory-motor mind) and

tells it what to do. Then manas interacts with karmendriyas (organs of action)

and makes them do various things. My buddhi determined what to write and my

manas told my hands to type this and I ended up typing.

> > >

> > > Your point about " what exists as a part cannot be the whole " is totally

out of place. The sense of I-ness, the memories and conditioning, the logical

mind, the sensory-motor mind, karmendriyas etc are all different parts of

individualized consciousness and they play different roles while interacting

with each other in different ways. Some of those interactions may be deemed to

be controls.

> > >

> > > > Am not mixing up the terminologies, though my mail didn't

> > > > go in details. Your understanding is flawed.

> > > >

> > > > 2. Where did you read this up ?

> > >

> > > One does not " read up " these things in a single place. There are different

abstractions and breakdowns of what happens in individualized consciousness.

There are several sources that speak of different aspects of this knowledge in

slightly different terms. One will assimilate this knowledge better if one reads

as many sources as possible and contemplates.

> > >

> > > Best regards,

> > > Narasimha

> > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -

> > > Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ homam

> > > Do Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ tarpana

> > > Spirituality: http://groups. / group/vedic- wisdom

> > > Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro. home.comcast. net

> > > Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAst rologer.org

> > > Jyotish writings: http://groups. / group/JyotishWri tings

> > > Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagan nath.org

> > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -

> > >

> > > ---- yeeahoo_99 <nitish.arya@ ...> wrote:

> > > > || OM TAT SAT ||

> > > > Dear Narasimha,

> > > > Please Ignore my previous-mail, it was not completed - i will try to

delete it.

> > > >

> > > > Am not mixing up the terminologies, though my mail didn't go in details.

Your understanding is flawed.

> > > >

> > > > 1. All ideas including the idea of Ahamkara naturally belong to the

ideational or causal body, but Ahamkara must be overcome only in the physical

body (See point 5.). Astral or Causal-bodied beings (those without a

physical/astral body) don't have to fight with the idea of Ahamkara like we do.

> > > >

> > > > > Ahamkaara/ego controls manas and buddhi also. When manas (sensory-

> > > > > ...they are all guided by the sense of I-ness. That sense of I-ness

> > > > > permeates through all layers of one's individualized consciousness.

> > > >

> > > > 2. Where did you read this up ?

> > > >

> > > > There is a fine line between the sense of I-ness attributed to the

Individual Soul and the sense of I-ness derived through the idea of Ahamkara.

Even after a Soul is freed of the three bodies, the individuality of the Soul

Atom is not destroyed (Resurrection implies that), while it has already given up

the idea of Ahamkara including all other ideas.

> > > >

> > > > Individuality of a causal-bodied being is not due to the idea of

Ahamkara because " What exists as a part cannot be the whole " . Thus, the idea of

Ahamkara, being one of the 35 ideas of the Causal-body, doesn't account for

neither controls the rest of the 34 ideas. Each idea is independent of another,

without requiring another idea to act upon it - otherwise your buddhi would

always interfere with the functioning of Mind or Ahamkara or the 5 functions of

life-forces and so on.

> > > >

> > > > Essentially, the 35 ideas of causal body are the basic causal forces and

are not related as cause-effect to each other. Thus, each is independent of the

application of the sense of I-ness derived from Ahamkara. Manas and Buddhi being

two of the Causal-ideas, their functioning as well as existence is not

" controlled " nor " derived " in any way by the idea of Ahamkara. It is very clear

when we see those with sharpest Buddhi or Sharpest Mind still carrying Heaviest

Ahamkara, because they didn't work upon that particular idea.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > > But ego/ahamkaara/ I-ness is the very basis of the entire

> > > > > individualized consciousness.

> > > >

> > > > 3. Well, as most Physical-bodied beings cannot see through the

Astral/causal cosmoses, it doesn't apply in the same way to the finer Astral and

Causal-bodied beings who can always pierce the veil of Maya and see the human

activities. Thus, what is " the very basis " of the entire individualized

consciousness for a physical-bodied (unenlightened) being is not the same as for

an astral/causal bodied being.

> > > > An Astral-bodied being thinks of Manas/sense- consciousness as the very

basis of the entire individualized consciousness.

> > > > A Causal-bodied being thinks of Chitta/perceptive- consciousness as the

very basis of the entire individualized consciousness.

> > > > However, that individuality is of the Soul not derived from any idea,

which is why it is not lost when the Astral being loses astral consciousness and

reincarnates in the Physical body.

> > > >

> > > > As an example, Devatas, with their finer bodies, are able to work

through all the beings in all their physical-bodies simultaneously (like Ganesh

resides in the Mooladhara, Agni digests the food, and so on..), never getting

controlled by Ahamkara that would require them to say that this particular body

is " my body " or that one is mine - unless they incarnate in Physical bodies

themselves. Devatas are, however, Astral/Causal- bodied beings, so they would

attempt to influence the Manas (Spirit-Possession) of the sense-bound

worshipper. Pretas on the other hand, would attempt to possess ones' physical

body as well as act out their Ahamkara.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > > Out of the four antahkaranas, chitta (remembering or conditioned

> > > > > mind) and ahamkaara (ego or I-ness) are parts of the kaarana

> > > > > sareera (causal body) and remain till the end.

> > > >

> > > > 4. As per the resurrected Soul of Sri Yukteswar in Autobiography of a

Yogi -

> > > >

> > > > Causal body is a matrix of 35 ideas, that include 19 ideas comprising

Astral body (Chitta, Manas, Buddhi, Ahamkara, 5 functions of knowledge, 5

functions of Action, 5 functions of life-force) and 16 ideas comprising Physical

body (16 chemical elements).

> > > >

> > > > Now, as we all know that Physical body expires as a whole, not just one

or two of the 16 elements comprising it go away at a time, Astral and Causal

bodies are also cast off as a whole in the corresponding cosmic consciousness -

instead of different constituent ideas slipping out of it at different times.

Chitta being the staging idea for all other modifications, can be termed as the

last to go, when the causal body is finally dropped - hence I wrote as rising

above Chitta.

> > > >

> > > > Thus, the idea of Ahamkara is bound with Gross Physical vibrations,

> > > > Manas with Subtle Astral vibrations and

> > > > Chitta with infinitely Subtle Causal Vibrations.

> > > >

> > > > Buddhi being another variable, can be developed or undeveloped

irrespective of the other 34. Even illiterate Moodha, through surrender to their

Guru, attain freedom from Ahamkara and so on...

> > > >

> > > > BTW, Chitta is not the Conditioned Mind. Chitta does store the residual

impressions of all the past incarnations. However, being constituted of Satwa

Guna, it doesn't have any inherent ability to act upon (Rajas) those

impressions, just like a container containing an inflammable liquid doesn't

automatically burn it down. Sadhana is required for That.

> > > > The Samskaras stored by Chitta, including those of Nidra, Smriti,

Vikalpa, Viparyaya, Pramana, correspond to the Tamo Guna, while the Chitta

itself is Satva Guna - hence the " Satvic - Tamas " represents the SuperEther

tattwa (refer my previous mail). The all-perceiving Satvic Chitta doesn't get

conditioned by the Tamo-guni Samskaras it stores.

> > > > Once the Chitta calms down, cleared of all residual impressions, only

Satva Guna remains, the intuition becomes coherent and the Soul reflects on

itself as distinct from Satva Guna of Prakriti (Chitta), thus realizing its own

nature as Brahman.

> > > >

> > > > 5.

> > > > In Patanjali Yoga Sutras:

> > > > drigadarshanaktyore katmataivasmita -6

> > > > Egoism is the identification of the seer with the instrument of seeing.

Patanjali has used Asmita instead of Ahamkara.

> > > > Since astral-bodied beings can use any of the senses like eyes to see,

hear, smell, taste and so on (refer Autobiography of a Yogi)... the sense of

egoism does not take roots in the astral-body and hence doesn't create Astral

Karma. Similarly, Causal bodied beings can use thought to sense everything.

> > > >

> > > > Hence, Egotism has to be rooted out while the consciousness is

associated with the Physical Body sensory activities or has Physical Karma.

> > > >

> > > > 6. The idea of Manas, as the controller of sense-consciousness , must be

overcome in Astral body, through Vairagya. Read autobiography of a Yogi (chapter

43) where Sri Yukteswar illustrates that only those beings who cannot be tempted

to go back to the pleasing to the eye Astral cosmos are permitted to stay

permanently in the Causal cosmos. Pleasing to the eye implies

Sense-consciousness which is associated with Manas.

> > > >

> > > > In Patanjali Yoga Sutras also it is mentioned in the same manner :

> > > >

> > > > dristanushravika vishaya vitrishnasya vashikara samjnavairagyam -15-

> > > >

> > > > That effect which comes to these who have given up their thirst after

objects, either seen or heard, and which wills to control the objects, is

non-attachment. Vivekananda has commented that Vairagya is the only way to

freedom.

> > > >

> > > > This is to be accomplished by transferring the consciousness to

Astral-Body and working out the Astral Karma or otherwise as an astral-bodied

being.

> > > >

> > > > 7. Patanjali Yoga Sutras:

> > > > yogashchittavrittin irodhah -2-

> > > > Thus, extinguishing all the movements of Chitta is called " Yoga " .

> > > >

> > > > This is to be accomplished by transferring the consciousness to

Causal-Body and working out the Causal Karma or otherwise as a causal-bodied

being.

> > > >

> > > > I hope this clarifies.

> > > >

> > > > Regards,

> > > > Nitish

> > > >

> > > > , Narasimha PVR Rao <pvr@> wrote:

> > > > >

> > > > > Namaste Nitish,

> > > > >

> > > > > I am afraid you are mixing up terminologies. For example, ego or

ahamkaara (sense of I-ness) is not limited to the physical body, but extends to

subtle body and causal body as well. In fact, ego resides in the causal body and

affects other bodies. Out of the four antahkaranas, chitta (remembering or

conditioned mind) and ahamkaara (ego or I-ness) are parts of the kaarana sareera

(causal body) and remain till the end.

> > > > >

> > > > > Ahamkaara/ego controls manas and buddhi also. When manas

(sensory-motor mind) observes sensory inputs or buddhi (intellectual or thinking

mind) analyzes current and past observations of mind or chitta (remembering or

conditioned mind) stores various observations or retrieves previously stored

observations, they are all guided by the sense of I-ness. That sense of I-ness

permeates through all layers of one's individualized consciousness.

> > > > >

> > > > > Upanishads and various scriptures have broken down the individualized

consciousness into various groups by functionality, like five koshas, three

sareeras, five praanas, five jnaanendriyas, five karmendriyas, four

antahkaranas, six/seven chakras etc. But ego/ahamkaara/ I-ness is the very basis

of the entire individualized consciousness.

> > > > >

> > > > > Though the word jnaana means different things to different people, a

jnaana yogi pursues Self by the path of contemplation and discrimination. When a

jnaana yogi reaches the final target, all bodies and koshas are merged in

cosmos.

> > > > >

> > > > > Best regards,

> > > > > Narasimha

> > > > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -

> > > > > Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ homam

> > > > > Do Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ tarpana

> > > > > Spirituality: http://groups. / group/vedic- wisdom

> > > > > Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro. home.comcast. net

> > > > > Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAst rologer.org

> > > > > Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagan nath.org

> > > > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -

> > > > >

> > > > > ---- yeeahoo_99 <nitish.arya@ > wrote:

> > > > > > || OM TAT SAT ||

> > > > > > Dear Narasimha,

> > > > > > In my opinion, there are three distinct phases that lead the sould

to rise above Ego, Mind and Chitta - corresponding to the three bodies physical

(Sthoola), astral (Sookshma) and causal (Karana) resp.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Rising above Ego is Jnana - Merging Physical body in Physical cosmos

> > > > > > Rising above Mind is Vairagya - Merging Astral body in Astral cosmos

> > > > > > Rising above Chitta is Yoga - Merging Causal body in Causal cosmos

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Finally, becoming established in Para-Brahman is YogaArudha.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Your comments.

> > > > > > Regards,

> > > > > > Nitish

> > > > > >

> > > > > > , " Narasimha P.V.R. Rao " <pvr@>

wrote:

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Namaste,

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Gyaani or jnaani is a wise and learned person, who may or may not

debate (or even engage) with others. One may become a gyaani using either gyaana

yoga or bhakti yoga or karma yoga or raaja yoga.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Gyaana/jnaana yoga is a path of pursuing the Supreme through

intellectual analysis. One pursuing that path may or may not debate with others

and may or may not read many scriptures, but one will analyze and debate within

oneself. One starts with the basic axioms (e.g. Self is imperishable and without

a beginning or an end). One will go on eliminating things that one is aware of

as not being Self. For example, body has a beginning and end and is perishable.

So it is not Self. One introspects like this and, though the process of

elimination, finally finds the true Self. That is gyaana yoga. Pure gyaana yoga

is very difficult to follow in this age.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Vichaara (contemplation) is the process of sadhana for an adherer

of pure gyaana yoga.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > However, the gyaana (knowledge of Self) achieved by such a person

at the end is not really different from the knowledge of Self achieved by a

person following another path.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Best regards,

> > > > > > > Narasimha

> > >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > Try the new India Homepage. http://in.. com/trynew

> >

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

Now, send attachments up to 25MB with India Mail. Learn how.

http://in.overview.mail./photos

>

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Namaste Rajarshi,

 

Nitish said: <<<i Sri Paramahansa Yogananda " , he has mentioned about all these

things (what happens to a soul at death and so on) in such a simplistic manner

in his Gita commentaries, that even a layman can understand it.>>>

 

Rajarshi said: <<<Is that the only book you have based all your fancy ideas on?

Maybe its time for you go back to some more genuine reading with a open mind. It

will do you a world of good.>>>

 

* * *

 

We need to be respectful to rishis, yogis and other seers who passed down

genuine knowledge. Paramahamsa Yogananda is a great yogi and a person with a

high level of realization, who came to earth for a specific mission and executed

it so well.

 

If somebody quoting him is saying " fancy " things, please realize that it may be

due to misunderstanding by that person. For example, even Patanjali was being

quoted and misused earlier, based on a misunderstanding.

 

If one is pure and ready, just a single book by a good author may be sufficient

to give perfect knowledge. But, otherwise, even a really good book may not stop

one from forming some wrong notions. Of course, reading multiple good books may

give a better perspective. However, let us not explicitly or implicitly put down

any good book or author here.

 

* * *

 

I want to make a philosophical comment.

 

Take a simple question: What is the purpose of debate in a matter relating to

knowledge and when is a debate over?

 

One with kshatriya temperament may want to assert one's supremacy and

correctness and may want to see the opponent kneel down and accept defeat. Such

a debater may sometimes get personal and pass personal remarks that are

dismissive or condescending or disparaging in nature/tone.

 

But, one with braahmana temperament does not care about assertions of supremacy,

victory, defeat etc. Such a debater only wants correct knowledge to be spread

and wrong knowledge to be contained, to the best of one's limited ability. Such

a debater will stay away from personal comments, focus on the subject matter and

make only those comments that promote further understanding and clarification of

knowledge. If, for example, the opponent changes his/her stand in the middle of

the debate without acknowledging his/her mistake and accepting defeat, it will

not be a big deal for a braahmana debater. As long as wrong knowledge is

contained, the purpose of the debate is served! There is no need to put down the

person. Moreover, a true braahmana debater will display the same braahmana

qualities *even when* he/she is confronted by a kshatriya debater.

 

I'd love to see some learned members develop a braahmana attitude to debating

here. Spiritual knowledge is essentially a braahminical pursuit and let us

maintain a braahminical attitude in it.

 

Best regards,

Narasimha

 

Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAstrologer.org/homam

Do Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAstrologer.org/tarpana

Spirituality:

Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro.home.comcast.net

Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAstrologer.org

Jyotish writings: JyotishWritings

Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagannath.org

 

 

, rajarshi nandy <rajarshi14 wrote:

> Namaste Nitish

>

> Check below.

>

> -Regards

> Rajarshi

>

> The upsurge (of consciousness) is Bhairava - Shiva Sutra

>

> --- On Sun, 4/10/09, yeeahoo_99 <nitish.arya wrote:

>

> yeeahoo_99 <nitish.arya

> Re: Gyan Marga

>

> Sunday, 4 October, 2009, 4:45 PM

>

> || OM TAT SAT ||

> Namaskar Rajarshi,

>

> Thanks for your contribution - all you have done is to prove what is already

known.

>

> You had already, during you very first mail stated that everything is already

known. So then why are you wastingme here? -:)

>

> > Therefore, Ahamkara exists even in beyond the death for a normal

> > human being. Therewfore, Ahamkara is present in the astral/casual

> > plane as well.

>

> 1. Do you realize what is being talked about and what you have ended up

proving ?

>

> Maybe, most people here realize it better than you do! Thats what makes your

statements sound so incorrigible funny to say the least.

>

> Wherein did I deny that Ahamkara is not present in Astral/Causal bodies ?

>

> You did deny it quite vehemently. Kindly check yourolder mails. You make a

statement A then in the course of discussion you conveniently change it to B and

then jump around assuming ridiculous airs. At least, try and remember what you

yourself speak. Go back and re check you own mails here.

>

> Why is Ahamkara not dominant in Astral/Causal bodies ?

> The reason I have already given in the first mail in sufficient detail.

>

> Thats again your assumption. Ahamkara is indeed a dominant force in all planes

untill one reaches a state beyond ego.

>

> BRING IT BACK AT REBIRTH TO THE EARTH. AND THEN, HE WILL RECLAIM HIS LOST

TERRITORY AND WEALTH - THE CONFLICTS THAT WILL ARISE WILL BE BEYOND ANYBODY'S

CONTROL.

>

> This shows that you have not understood even 1 percent of what has been told

to you till now by other in this forum, maybe because you have already decided

to close your mind.

>

> Ahamkara is NOT confied to acquiring or not acquiring of weath. THE specifics

will depend on the law of karma. The essential sense of I-ness will very much

remain in ALL planes, the speciifcs gets filled in by karmic repurcussions and

desires.

>

> THUS, THE BEAUTIFUL ASTRAL SPHERE ARE SENSED BY THE I-NESS OF MANAS, while

CAUSAL SPHERE ARE SENSED BY THE I-NESS OF CHITTA.

>

> Any I-ness is Ahamkara. Period.

>

> i Sri Paramahansa Yogananda " , he has mentioned about all these things (what

happens to a soul at death and so on) in such a simplistic manner in his Gita

commentaries, that even a layman can understand it.

>

> Is that the only book you have based all your fancy ideas on? Maybe its time

for you go back to some more genuine reading with a open mind. It will do you a

world of good.

>

> Regards,

> Nitish

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|| OM TAT SAT ||

Dear Narasimha,

 

The debate is not over, it is over with you as I said that I wouldn't reply

on this topic anymore on a mail to you.

In my opinion and experience, You simply didn't catch up with the ideas being

conveyed :).

 

Regards,

nitish

 

, " pvr108 " <pvr wrote:

>

> Namaste Rajarshi,

>

> Nitish said: <<<i Sri Paramahansa Yogananda " , he has mentioned about all these

things (what happens to a soul at death and so on) in such a simplistic manner

in his Gita commentaries, that even a layman can understand it.>>>

>

> Rajarshi said: <<<Is that the only book you have based all your fancy ideas

on? Maybe its time for you go back to some more genuine reading with a open

mind. It will do you a world of good.>>>

>

> * * *

>

> We need to be respectful to rishis, yogis and other seers who passed down

genuine knowledge. Paramahamsa Yogananda is a great yogi and a person with a

high level of realization, who came to earth for a specific mission and executed

it so well.

>

> If somebody quoting him is saying " fancy " things, please realize that it may

be due to misunderstanding by that person. For example, even Patanjali was being

quoted and misused earlier, based on a misunderstanding.

>

> If one is pure and ready, just a single book by a good author may be

sufficient to give perfect knowledge. But, otherwise, even a really good book

may not stop one from forming some wrong notions. Of course, reading multiple

good books may give a better perspective. However, let us not explicitly or

implicitly put down any good book or author here.

>

> * * *

>

> I want to make a philosophical comment.

>

> Take a simple question: What is the purpose of debate in a matter relating to

knowledge and when is a debate over?

>

> One with kshatriya temperament may want to assert one's supremacy and

correctness and may want to see the opponent kneel down and accept defeat. Such

a debater may sometimes get personal and pass personal remarks that are

dismissive or condescending or disparaging in nature/tone.

>

> But, one with braahmana temperament does not care about assertions of

supremacy, victory, defeat etc. Such a debater only wants correct knowledge to

be spread and wrong knowledge to be contained, to the best of one's limited

ability. Such a debater will stay away from personal comments, focus on the

subject matter and make only those comments that promote further understanding

and clarification of knowledge. If, for example, the opponent changes his/her

stand in the middle of the debate without acknowledging his/her mistake and

accepting defeat, it will not be a big deal for a braahmana debater. As long as

wrong knowledge is contained, the purpose of the debate is served! There is no

need to put down the person. Moreover, a true braahmana debater will display the

same braahmana qualities *even when* he/she is confronted by a kshatriya

debater.

>

> I'd love to see some learned members develop a braahmana attitude to debating

here. Spiritual knowledge is essentially a braahminical pursuit and let us

maintain a braahminical attitude in it.

>

> Best regards,

> Narasimha

>

> Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAstrologer.org/homam

> Do Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAstrologer.org/tarpana

> Spirituality:

> Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro.home.comcast.net

> Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAstrologer.org

> Jyotish writings: JyotishWritings

> Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagannath.org

>

>

> , rajarshi nandy <rajarshi14@> wrote:

> > Namaste Nitish

> >

> > Check below.

> >

> > -Regards

> > Rajarshi

> >

> > The upsurge (of consciousness) is Bhairava - Shiva Sutra

> >

> > --- On Sun, 4/10/09, yeeahoo_99 <nitish.arya@> wrote:

> >

> > yeeahoo_99 <nitish.arya@>

> > Re: Gyan Marga

> >

> > Sunday, 4 October, 2009, 4:45 PM

> >

> > || OM TAT SAT ||

> > Namaskar Rajarshi,

> >

> > Thanks for your contribution - all you have done is to prove what is already

known.

> >

> > You had already, during you very first mail stated that everything is

already known. So then why are you wastingme here? -:)

> >

> > > Therefore, Ahamkara exists even in beyond the death for a normal

> > > human being. Therewfore, Ahamkara is present in the astral/casual

> > > plane as well.

> >

> > 1. Do you realize what is being talked about and what you have ended up

proving ?

> >

> > Maybe, most people here realize it better than you do! Thats what makes your

statements sound so incorrigible funny to say the least.

> >

> > Wherein did I deny that Ahamkara is not present in Astral/Causal bodies ?

> >

> > You did deny it quite vehemently. Kindly check yourolder mails. You make a

statement A then in the course of discussion you conveniently change it to B and

then jump around assuming ridiculous airs. At least, try and remember what you

yourself speak. Go back and re check you own mails here.

> >

> > Why is Ahamkara not dominant in Astral/Causal bodies ?

> > The reason I have already given in the first mail in sufficient detail.

> >

> > Thats again your assumption. Ahamkara is indeed a dominant force in all

planes untill one reaches a state beyond ego.

> >

> > BRING IT BACK AT REBIRTH TO THE EARTH. AND THEN, HE WILL RECLAIM HIS LOST

TERRITORY AND WEALTH - THE CONFLICTS THAT WILL ARISE WILL BE BEYOND ANYBODY'S

CONTROL.

> >

> > This shows that you have not understood even 1 percent of what has been told

to you till now by other in this forum, maybe because you have already decided

to close your mind.

> >

> > Ahamkara is NOT confied to acquiring or not acquiring of weath. THE

specifics will depend on the law of karma. The essential sense of I-ness will

very much remain in ALL planes, the speciifcs gets filled in by karmic

repurcussions and desires.

> >

> > THUS, THE BEAUTIFUL ASTRAL SPHERE ARE SENSED BY THE I-NESS OF MANAS, while

CAUSAL SPHERE ARE SENSED BY THE I-NESS OF CHITTA.

> >

> > Any I-ness is Ahamkara. Period.

> >

> > i Sri Paramahansa Yogananda " , he has mentioned about all these things (what

happens to a soul at death and so on) in such a simplistic manner in his Gita

commentaries, that even a layman can understand it.

> >

> > Is that the only book you have based all your fancy ideas on? Maybe its time

for you go back to some more genuine reading with a open mind. It will do you a

world of good.

> >

> > Regards,

> > Nitish

>

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The upsurge (of consciousness) is Bhairava - Shiva Sutra--- On Mon, 5/10/09, yeeahoo_99 <nitish.arya wrote:

 

Dear Nitish,

 

My respect for Narasimha and other learned members of the forum overides my intense desire to rip your enlightenment balloon any further. Suffice it to you, I am quite happy with this exchange of mails since you did provide me with a live example of what Aurobindo so beautifully describes as "intermediate zone spiritual wreckage".

 

I personally am a through rational being with negligible spiritual realization, but I am good at spotting self deluded spiritualists. Also, my point had nothing against Yogananda, it was all about you.

 

On a different note, there are some letters available in Bengali from Sri Yukteshwar Giri (Yoganandas guru) which deride Yogananda for some spiritual as well as non spiritual reasons. I don't know if there are any english translation of teh same, but someone who has studied the history of Kriya yoga (like a historian) from Lahiri Baba onwards, would be aware of this. There is at least one very famous Kriya Yogi - who traces his lineage from one of Lahiri Mahasays's son and whos disciples consider him to be enlightened, at least he does posess some verifiable yogic abilities if that counts for anything - who consideres Yogananda to a 'famous yogi' rather than a self realized yogi.

 

Mind you, I am passing no judgement here at all , merely stating some facts which had been presented to me some years back, including the letters of Sri Yukteshwar.

 

Look them up if you are genuinely interested, otherwise enjoy:).

 

-Regards

Rajarshiyeeahoo_99 <nitish.arya Re: Gyan Marga Date: Monday, 5 October, 2009, 11:01 PM

|| OM TAT SAT ||Namaskar Rajarshi,> Is that the only book you have based all your fancy ideas on? Maybe > its time for you go back to some more genuine reading with a open > mind. It will do you a world of good.Before you achieve the state of a Paramahansa like Yogananda did, you are nothing more than a crackpot commenting on "Bhagavad Gita", that is well beyond your spiritual comprehension and spiritual achievements.Regards,Nitish, rajarshi nandy <rajarshi14@ ...> wrote:>> Namaste Nitish> > Check below.> > -Regards> Rajarshi> > > > The upsurge (of consciousness) is Bhairava - Shiva Sutra>

> --- On Sun, 4/10/09, yeeahoo_99 <nitish.arya@ ...> wrote:> > > yeeahoo_99 <nitish.arya@ ...>> Re: Gyan Marga> > Sunday, 4 October, 2009, 4:45 PM> > > > > > > || OM TAT SAT ||> Namaskar Rajarshi,> > Thanks for your contribution - all you have done is to prove what is already known.> > You had already, during you very first mail stated that everything is already known. So then why are you wastingme here? -:)> > > Therefore, Ahamkara exists even in beyond the death for a normal > > human being. Therewfore, Ahamkara is present in the

astral/casual > > plane as well.> > 1. Do you realize what is being talked about and what you have ended up proving ? > > Maybe, most people here realize it better than you do! Thats what makes your statements sound so incorrigible funny to say the least.> > Wherein did I deny that Ahamkara is not present in Astral/Causal bodies ?> > You did deny it quite vehemently. Kindly check yourolder mails. You make a statement A then in the course of discussion you conveniently change it to B and then jump around assuming ridiculous airs. At least, try and remember what you yourself speak. Go back and re check you own mails here.> > Why is Ahamkara not dominant in Astral/Causal bodies ?> The reason I have already given in the first mail in sufficient detail.> > > Thats again your assumption. Ahamkara is indeed a dominant force in all

planes untill one reaches a state beyond ego.> > BRING IT BACK AT REBIRTH TO THE EARTH. AND THEN, HE WILL RECLAIM HIS LOST TERRITORY AND WEALTH - THE CONFLICTS THAT WILL ARISE WILL BE BEYOND ANYBODY'S CONTROL. > > > This shows that you have not understood even 1 percent of what has been told to you till now by other in this forum, maybe because you have already decided to close your mind.> > Ahamkara is NOT confied to acquiring or not acquiring of weath. THE specifics will depend on the law of karma. The essential sense of I-ness will very much remain in ALL planes, the speciifcs gets filled in by karmic repurcussions and desires.> > > > THUS, THE BEAUTIFUL ASTRAL SPHERE ARE SENSED BY THE I-NESS OF MANAS, while CAUSAL SPHERE ARE SENSED BY THE I-NESS OF CHITTA.> > Any I-ness is Ahamkara. Period.> > > i Sri

Paramahansa Yogananda", he has mentioned about all these things (what happens to a soul at death and so on) in such a simplistic manner in his Gita commentaries, that even a layman can understand it.> > Is that the only book you have based all your fancy ideas on? Maybe its time for you go back to some more genuine reading with a open mind. It will do you a world of good.> > > Regards,> Nitish> > , rajarshi nandy <rajarshi14@ ...> wrote:> >> > Namaste> > > > Proof by Contradiction> > A person who lives as a farmer, should, after death, remain a farmer in the astral cosmos, and after subsequent astral death, should be reborn as the same farmer with the same name and same identity as in his previous earthly incarnation.> > > > Wrong example.> > >

> A person after his death, depending on his tendencies in this life and level of spiritual evolution will retain some aspects of his personality, which means a person who loves music intensely will also in his next birth have an affinity for music. The conditions of the birth and inbetween period depends both on his inherent samaskaras as well the karmic repurcussion. It not, never, entirely once choice. It a mix and match between what one wants and what one deserves. IN all cases, to be able to retain the samskara Ahamakara is needed. Therefore, Ahamkara exists even in beyond the death for a normal human being. Therewfore, Ahamkara is present in the astral/casual plane as well.> > > > > > Corollary #1:> > A Devata as an Astral-being has I-ness due to his Manas, and doesn't have Ahamkara for the work done by him in all the various physical bodies.> > > > > > This

example becomse invalid since the analysis of the first example itself in incorrect.> > > > -Regards> > Rajarshi> > > > > > > > The upsurge (of consciousness) is Bhairava - Shiva Sutra> > > > --- On Sun, 4/10/09, yeeahoo_99 <nitish.arya@ ...> wrote:> > > > > > yeeahoo_99 <nitish.arya@ ...>> > Re: Gyan Marga> > > > Sunday, 4 October, 2009, 9:40 AM> > > > > > > > > > > > > > || OM TAT SAT ||> > Dear Narasimha and Sundeep,> > > > Thanks for your feedback. I thought, I had written a quite clear and explicit mail, but your reply has proved that it needs to be put down in at least 10-fold simpler words.>

> > > You read my mail, but picked up notions in an incorrect, incoherent manner, and are reading beyond what is written in my mail.> > > > To prove my point, I would ask Sundeep to read my previous mail on "Gyan Marg" followed by your reply and see if he also picks up the notions in the same manner as you did ?> > > > The only addition required is an example:> > > > Your hypothesis> > Ahamkara is the only I-ness there is for all the beings in all the 3 cosmoses i.e. all the Physical, Astral and Causal-bodied beings.> > > > Proof by Contradiction> > A person who lives as a farmer, should, after death, remain a farmer in the astral cosmos, and after subsequent astral death, should be reborn as the same farmer with the same name and same identity as in his previous earthly incarnation.> > This is not the case, people don't even

remember what they were in previous birth, and start their life afresh in a new earthly body> > => Contradiction > > => the original hypothesis is wrong > > => Ahamkara is not the only sense of I-ness applicable to all beings in all the 3 cosmoses.> > > > Inference #1:> > => Ahamkara is dominant sense of I-ness in Physical Cosmos.> > => Manas is dominant sense of I-ness in Astral Cosmos.> > => Chitta is dominant sense of I-ness in Causal Cosmos.> > > > Corollary #1:> > A Devata as an Astral-being has I-ness due to his Manas, and doesn't have Ahamkara for the work done by him in all the various physical bodies.> > > > Inference #1 and Corollary #1 is what I had written in my previous mail on this topic.> > > > There are many other ways to prove the contradiction on this hypothesis (e.g.

Powers of beings in physical cosmos < those in astral cosmos < those in causal cosmos).> > > > Your made two additional points that are also invalid. My comments on that is:> > > > 1. I-ness derived from Ahamkara,Manas and Chitta has no innate power to Control any other idea of the 35 Causal-ideas.> > Reason:> > Soul is the only Truth and controller, everything else has an unreal and derived existence. Thus, all the 35 ideas co-ordinate with each other, and not control each other. > > > > 2. A new-born child or a person in Hypnotic-Trance, is able to use his sense-consciousness coherently due to the astral-bodys' sense of I-ness derived from Manas, that coordinates the senses.> > He has no Buddhi or discriminating faculty to interact with manas (sensory-motor mind) and tell it what to do - as you have proposed. Thus, Manas co-ordinates the senses due to its

own sense of I-ness, not due to Buddhi.> > > > I hope this clarifies.> > > > Regards,> > Nitish> > > > , Narasimha PVR Rao <pvr@> wrote:> > >> > > Namaste,> > > > > > Out of the 19 or 35 attributes of individualized consciousness, which one gives the idea "I am this" or "I am that"? Of course, it is ahamkaraka or I-ness or egosense or ego principle!> > > > > > Is one's idea of "I am this" limited to a physical body? Of course not! If someone says "so and so person is a terrible person", one may feel offended or if someone says "so and so person is a great person", one may feel elated. One's ahamkara or I-ness is identifying with the criticism or praise, even though nothing is being done to the physical body and only a name is being used. When somebody calls one by

name from distance (as opposed to patting on the physical body and calling), one's consciousness may still think "I am being called" and one may turn towards the caller. As in these examples, one's I-ness does of course bind itself to more than a body.> > > > > > Suppose one gets a dream while sleeping. One may have forgotten totally about the physical body in the dream! One may think of something else as "I". In dreams, one may see oneself as a different body or may not even "see" onself, but still one may have the sense that so and so thing is happening to "me". So, even when the mind is drawn away from the physical body, there is still a notion of "I am this" (I-ness) in a dream. That is ahamkara or I-ness or ego principle.> > > > > > Your idea that ahamkara is limited to physical body is absolutely unacceptable. Ahamkara or I-ness extends beyond the physical body.> > > > >

> Also, your idea that deities like Agni do not have ahamkara (I-ness) because they do not have physical bodies is incorrect. Of course, Agni does have an I-ness and thinks "I am Agni and this is what I do". If he did not have that I-ness, he would not do everything he does.> > > > > > Moreover, the 19 or 35 ideas of individualized consciousness do interact with each other, whether we use the word "control" for some of those interactions or not. For example, buddhi (intellectual/ discriminating mind) judges various past experiences, interacts with manas (sensory-motor mind) and tells it what to do. Then manas interacts with karmendriyas (organs of action) and makes them do various things. My buddhi determined what to write and my manas told my hands to type this and I ended up typing.> > > > > > Your point about "what exists as a part cannot be the whole" is totally out of place. The sense of

I-ness, the memories and conditioning, the logical mind, the sensory-motor mind, karmendriyas etc are all different parts of individualized consciousness and they play different roles while interacting with each other in different ways. Some of those interactions may be deemed to be controls.> > > > > > > Am not mixing up the terminologies, though my mail didn't> > > > go in details. Your understanding is flawed.> > > > > > > > 2. Where did you read this up ?> > > > > > One does not "read up" these things in a single place. There are different abstractions and breakdowns of what happens in individualized consciousness. There are several sources that speak of different aspects of this knowledge in slightly different terms. One will assimilate this knowledge better if one reads as many sources as possible and contemplates.> > > > >

> Best regards,> > > Narasimha> > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -> > > Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ homam> > > Do Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ tarpana> > > Spirituality: http://groups. / group/vedic- wisdom> > > Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro. home.comcast. net> > > Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAst rologer.org> > > Jyotish writings: http://groups. /

group/JyotishWri tings> > > Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagan nath.org> > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -> > > > > > ---- yeeahoo_99 <nitish.arya@ ...> wrote: > > > > || OM TAT SAT ||> > > > Dear Narasimha,> > > > Please Ignore my previous-mail, it was not completed - i will try to delete it.> > > > > > > > Am not mixing up the terminologies, though my mail didn't go in details. Your understanding is flawed.> > > > > > > > 1. All ideas including the idea of Ahamkara naturally belong to the ideational or causal body, but Ahamkara must be overcome only in the physical body (See point 5.). Astral or Causal-bodied beings (those without a physical/astral body) don't have to

fight with the idea of Ahamkara like we do.> > > > > > > > > Ahamkaara/ego controls manas and buddhi also. When manas (sensory-> > > > > ...they are all guided by the sense of I-ness. That sense of I-ness > > > > > permeates through all layers of one's individualized consciousness.> > > > > > > > 2. Where did you read this up ?> > > > > > > > There is a fine line between the sense of I-ness attributed to the Individual Soul and the sense of I-ness derived through the idea of Ahamkara. Even after a Soul is freed of the three bodies, the individuality of the Soul Atom is not destroyed (Resurrection implies that), while it has already given up the idea of Ahamkara including all other ideas.> > > > > > > > Individuality of a causal-bodied being is not due to the idea of Ahamkara because

"What exists as a part cannot be the whole". Thus, the idea of Ahamkara, being one of the 35 ideas of the Causal-body, doesn't account for neither controls the rest of the 34 ideas. Each idea is independent of another, without requiring another idea to act upon it - otherwise your buddhi would always interfere with the functioning of Mind or Ahamkara or the 5 functions of life-forces and so on.> > > > > > > > Essentially, the 35 ideas of causal body are the basic causal forces and are not related as cause-effect to each other. Thus, each is independent of the application of the sense of I-ness derived from Ahamkara. Manas and Buddhi being two of the Causal-ideas, their functioning as well as existence is not "controlled" nor "derived" in any way by the idea of Ahamkara. It is very clear when we see those with sharpest Buddhi or Sharpest Mind still carrying Heaviest Ahamkara, because they didn't work upon that particular

idea.> > > > > > > > > > > > > But ego/ahamkaara/ I-ness is the very basis of the entire > > > > > individualized consciousness.> > > > > > > > 3. Well, as most Physical-bodied beings cannot see through the Astral/causal cosmoses, it doesn't apply in the same way to the finer Astral and Causal-bodied beings who can always pierce the veil of Maya and see the human activities. Thus, what is "the very basis" of the entire individualized consciousness for a physical-bodied (unenlightened) being is not the same as for an astral/causal bodied being.> > > > An Astral-bodied being thinks of Manas/sense- consciousness as the very basis of the entire individualized consciousness.> > > > A Causal-bodied being thinks of Chitta/perceptive- consciousness as the very basis of the entire individualized consciousness.> > >

> However, that individuality is of the Soul not derived from any idea, which is why it is not lost when the Astral being loses astral consciousness and reincarnates in the Physical body.> > > > > > > > As an example, Devatas, with their finer bodies, are able to work through all the beings in all their physical-bodies simultaneously (like Ganesh resides in the Mooladhara, Agni digests the food, and so on..), never getting controlled by Ahamkara that would require them to say that this particular body is "my body" or that one is mine - unless they incarnate in Physical bodies themselves. Devatas are, however, Astral/Causal- bodied beings, so they would attempt to influence the Manas (Spirit-Possession) of the sense-bound worshipper. Pretas on the other hand, would attempt to possess ones' physical body as well as act out their Ahamkara.> > > > > > > > > > > > > Out of

the four antahkaranas, chitta (remembering or conditioned > > > > > mind) and ahamkaara (ego or I-ness) are parts of the kaarana > > > > > sareera (causal body) and remain till the end.> > > > > > > > 4. As per the resurrected Soul of Sri Yukteswar in Autobiography of a Yogi -> > > > > > > > Causal body is a matrix of 35 ideas, that include 19 ideas comprising Astral body (Chitta, Manas, Buddhi, Ahamkara, 5 functions of knowledge, 5 functions of Action, 5 functions of life-force) and 16 ideas comprising Physical body (16 chemical elements).> > > > > > > > Now, as we all know that Physical body expires as a whole, not just one or two of the 16 elements comprising it go away at a time, Astral and Causal bodies are also cast off as a whole in the corresponding cosmic consciousness - instead of different constituent ideas

slipping out of it at different times. Chitta being the staging idea for all other modifications, can be termed as the last to go, when the causal body is finally dropped - hence I wrote as rising above Chitta.> > > > > > > > Thus, the idea of Ahamkara is bound with Gross Physical vibrations, > > > > Manas with Subtle Astral vibrations and > > > > Chitta with infinitely Subtle Causal Vibrations.> > > > > > > > Buddhi being another variable, can be developed or undeveloped irrespective of the other 34. Even illiterate Moodha, through surrender to their Guru, attain freedom from Ahamkara and so on...> > > > > > > > BTW, Chitta is not the Conditioned Mind. Chitta does store the residual impressions of all the past incarnations. However, being constituted of Satwa Guna, it doesn't have any inherent ability to act upon (Rajas) those

impressions, just like a container containing an inflammable liquid doesn't automatically burn it down. Sadhana is required for That.> > > > The Samskaras stored by Chitta, including those of Nidra, Smriti, Vikalpa, Viparyaya, Pramana, correspond to the Tamo Guna, while the Chitta itself is Satva Guna - hence the "Satvic - Tamas" represents the SuperEther tattwa (refer my previous mail). The all-perceiving Satvic Chitta doesn't get conditioned by the Tamo-guni Samskaras it stores.> > > > Once the Chitta calms down, cleared of all residual impressions, only Satva Guna remains, the intuition becomes coherent and the Soul reflects on itself as distinct from Satva Guna of Prakriti (Chitta), thus realizing its own nature as Brahman.> > > > > > > > 5. > > > > In Patanjali Yoga Sutras: > > > > drigadarshanaktyore katmataivasmita -6> > > > Egoism is

the identification of the seer with the instrument of seeing. Patanjali has used Asmita instead of Ahamkara.> > > > Since astral-bodied beings can use any of the senses like eyes to see, hear, smell, taste and so on (refer Autobiography of a Yogi)... the sense of egoism does not take roots in the astral-body and hence doesn't create Astral Karma. Similarly, Causal bodied beings can use thought to sense everything.> > > > > > > > Hence, Egotism has to be rooted out while the consciousness is associated with the Physical Body sensory activities or has Physical Karma.> > > > > > > > 6. The idea of Manas, as the controller of sense-consciousness , must be overcome in Astral body, through Vairagya. Read autobiography of a Yogi (chapter 43) where Sri Yukteswar illustrates that only those beings who cannot be tempted to go back to the pleasing to the eye Astral cosmos are permitted

to stay permanently in the Causal cosmos. Pleasing to the eye implies Sense-consciousness which is associated with Manas.> > > > > > > > In Patanjali Yoga Sutras also it is mentioned in the same manner :> > > > > > > > dristanushravika vishaya vitrishnasya vashikara samjnavairagyam -15-> > > > > > > > That effect which comes to these who have given up their thirst after objects, either seen or heard, and which wills to control the objects, is non-attachment. Vivekananda has commented that Vairagya is the only way to freedom.> > > > > > > > This is to be accomplished by transferring the consciousness to Astral-Body and working out the Astral Karma or otherwise as an astral-bodied being.> > > > > > > > 7. Patanjali Yoga Sutras:> > > > yogashchittavrittin irodhah -2-> >

> > Thus, extinguishing all the movements of Chitta is called "Yoga". > > > > > > > > This is to be accomplished by transferring the consciousness to Causal-Body and working out the Causal Karma or otherwise as a causal-bodied being.> > > > > > > > I hope this clarifies.> > > > > > > > Regards,> > > > Nitish> > > > > > > > , Narasimha PVR Rao <pvr@> wrote:> > > > >> > > > > Namaste Nitish,> > > > > > > > > > I am afraid you are mixing up terminologies. For example, ego or ahamkaara (sense of I-ness) is not limited to the physical body, but extends to subtle body and causal body as well. In fact, ego resides in the causal body and affects other bodies. Out of the four antahkaranas, chitta

(remembering or conditioned mind) and ahamkaara (ego or I-ness) are parts of the kaarana sareera (causal body) and remain till the end.> > > > > > > > > > Ahamkaara/ego controls manas and buddhi also. When manas (sensory-motor mind) observes sensory inputs or buddhi (intellectual or thinking mind) analyzes current and past observations of mind or chitta (remembering or conditioned mind) stores various observations or retrieves previously stored observations, they are all guided by the sense of I-ness. That sense of I-ness permeates through all layers of one's individualized consciousness.> > > > > > > > > > Upanishads and various scriptures have broken down the individualized consciousness into various groups by functionality, like five koshas, three sareeras, five praanas, five jnaanendriyas, five karmendriyas, four antahkaranas, six/seven chakras etc. But ego/ahamkaara/ I-ness

is the very basis of the entire individualized consciousness.> > > > > > > > > > Though the word jnaana means different things to different people, a jnaana yogi pursues Self by the path of contemplation and discrimination. When a jnaana yogi reaches the final target, all bodies and koshas are merged in cosmos.> > > > > > > > > > Best regards,> > > > > Narasimha> > > > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -> > > > > Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ homam> > > > > Do Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ tarpana> > > > > Spirituality: http://groups. / group/vedic- wisdom> > > > > Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro. home.comcast. net> > > > > Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAst rologer.org> > > > > Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagan nath.org> > > > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -> > > > > > > > > > ---- yeeahoo_99 <nitish.arya@ > wrote: > > > > > > || OM TAT SAT ||> > > > > > Dear Narasimha,> > > > > > In my opinion, there are three distinct phases that lead the sould to rise above Ego, Mind and Chitta -

corresponding to the three bodies physical (Sthoola), astral (Sookshma) and causal (Karana) resp.> > > > > > > > > > > > Rising above Ego is Jnana - Merging Physical body in Physical cosmos> > > > > > Rising above Mind is Vairagya - Merging Astral body in Astral cosmos> > > > > > Rising above Chitta is Yoga - Merging Causal body in Causal cosmos> > > > > > > > > > > > Finally, becoming established in Para-Brahman is YogaArudha.> > > > > > > > > > > > Your comments.> > > > > > Regards,> > > > > > Nitish> > > > > > > > > > > > , "Narasimha P.V.R. Rao" <pvr@> wrote:> > > > > > >> > > > > > >

Namaste,> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Gyaani or jnaani is a wise and learned person, who may or may not debate (or even engage) with others. One may become a gyaani using either gyaana yoga or bhakti yoga or karma yoga or raaja yoga.> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Gyaana/jnaana yoga is a path of pursuing the Supreme through intellectual analysis. One pursuing that path may or may not debate with others and may or may not read many scriptures, but one will analyze and debate within oneself. One starts with the basic axioms (e.g. Self is imperishable and without a beginning or an end). One will go on eliminating things that one is aware of as not being Self. For example, body has a beginning and end and is perishable. So it is not Self. One introspects like this and, though the process of elimination, finally finds the true Self. That is gyaana yoga. Pure gyaana

yoga is very difficult to follow in this age.> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Vichaara (contemplation) is the process of sadhana for an adherer of pure gyaana yoga.> > > > > > > > > > > > > > However, the gyaana (knowledge of Self) achieved by such a person at the end is not really different from the knowledge of Self achieved by a person following another path.> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Best regards,> > > > > > > Narasimha> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Try the new India Homepage. http://in.. com/trynew> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Now, send attachments up to 25MB with India Mail. Learn how. http://in.overview. mail.. com/photos>

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