Jiddu Krishnamurthy's view of Guru

September 24, 2009

Recently one of my friend had a question for me:

1. Can a Guru help us? He took Jiddu Krishnamurthy's view on this. JK claims

that a guru can not help any one and the self realisation has to come from with

in. My friend is asking, if a Guru is useless as JK claims, why did JK write so

many books (no offence to JK followers)

2. If a person has to realise on himself, how it can be?

3. If the fact is that there is no I but for Brahman, why all this Maya? Why is

Braham that is me has to go through the misery and in the end realise that he is

Brahman? Why not Brahman be Brahman and not create any thing?

I could not give convincing answers to any of the questions.

Best regards,

Vijay

September 24, 2009

Dear Vijay,

In my opinion, having a guru is a great thing but practically, if you do not have one, it should not prevent you from actively making self effort. If the self effort is right, someone somewhere will be sent by Nature to give you the necessary guidance. Look at it this way. You have a car. A guru is a petrol pump. Once the car reaches the PP, it can get enough fuel to reach the destination safely. But, to reach the PP one needs some balance fuel. That is the self effort you do before Nature decides to help you.

Practically speaking, since the time I had read Jiddu Krishnamurti, I disagreed with him on his ideas about Guru. Though I concede that a Guru will probably at the most give you the necessary push. direction but finally it is you who must make the journey. The practical step is to keep doing sadhana on your own which is any day better than waiting for the Guru to arrive and start things for you. Also, this is a weird age we live in. For one genuine person there are 90 fakes of all hues and colours. I know because I have met some awesome fakes. A regular regime of sadhana can actually help you in this regard. One, it will tune your mind to some fundamental aspects of spirituality and in ways, help you to avoid incorrect people. Some of these incorrect people are even dangerous.

For questions number two, my idea is no effort is wasted. Forget about the end of the path, just keep walking. End is not in your hands. Only effort is in your hands.

The third question is the best one. I do not have any answers to this but merely some opinions which may or may not be correct. Creation is an act of joy on part of the Brahman. As they say, lila. Lila is play, and play is always fun. Our scriptures say, the Supreme Being projected Himself/Herslf to into the different polarity to appreciate it's own beauty! Like looking in a mirror. Without a duality, one will not know the joy and beautify of the unity. A similar kind of explanation also is seen in many ancient so called pagan cultures like Wicca etc.

-Regards

Rajarshi

The upsurge (of consciousness) is Bhairava - Shiva Sutra--- On Thu, 24/9/09, pvklnrao <pvklnrao wrote:

pvklnrao <pvklnrao Jiddu Krishnamurthy's view of Guru Date: Thursday, 24 September, 2009, 7:27 PM

Recently one of my friend had a question for me:1. Can a Guru help us? He took Jiddu Krishnamurthy' s view on this. JK claims that a guru can not help any one and the self realisation has to come from with in. My friend is asking, if a Guru is useless as JK claims, why did JK write so many books (no offence to JK followers)2. If a person has to realise on himself, how it can be?3. If the fact is that there is no I but for Brahman, why all this Maya? Why is Braham that is me has to go through the misery and in the end realise that he is Brahman? Why not Brahman be Brahman and not create any thing?I could not give convincing answers to any of the questions.Best regards,Vijay

See the Web's breaking stories, chosen by people like you. Check out Buzz.

September 24, 2009

||| aum namO bhagavathe vAsudevAya |||

Namaster Shri Rajarshi/Vijay

On JK's views on a Guru:

This is what Osho has to say about JK and his views on a Master. May be it is

useful. I haven't read a lot of JK or even Osho (little bits and pieces on the

web or an occassional article or so). So I cannot vouch for the truth level of

this. You can make your own judgements.

Question: Osho, Can An enlightened person be wrong? This refers to what you told

us about J. Krishnamurti, who keeps on saying that one does not Need a Master,

which is actually not right please comment.

Osho: Prem Pantha, An Enlightened person can never be wrong. Neither J.

Krishnamurti is wrong, but he never considers the situation in which you are. He

considers only the space in which he is, and that freedom is part of

enlightenment. The enlightened person has reached the highest peak of

consciousness; his abode is on Everest.

Now it is his freedom to speak according to the peak, the sunlit peak where he

is, or to consider the people who are still in the dark valley, who know nothing

about the light, for whom the peak of the Everest is only a dream, only a

perhaps " . This is the freedom of the enlightened person. Krishnamurti speaks in

terms where he is.

I speak in terms where you are, I consider you, because if I am speaking to you,

you have to be taken in consideration. I have to lead you towards the highest

peak, but the journey will begin in the dark valley, in your unconsciousness. If

I talk about my experience, absolutely inconsiderate of you, I am right, but I

am not useful to you.

An enlightened person is never wrong, but he can be useful or he can be useless.

J. Krishnamurti is useless! He is perfectly right; about that there is no

question, because I know the peak and what he is saying is certainly true --

from the vision of the peak. Those who have arrived, for them the journey

becomes almost a dream phenomenon. For those who have not arrived the journey is

real, the goal is just a dream. They are living in two different worlds. When

you are talking to a madman you have to consider him; if you don't consider him

you cannot help him.

Once a madman was brought to me. He had this crazy idea that one afternoon when

he was sleeping, a fly has entered his mouth. And because he used to sleep with

open mouth, nobody can deny the possibility. And since then he was very much

disturbed because the fly was roaming inside him, jumping inside him, moving in

his belly, going to his bladder, circulating in his bloodstream, sometimes in

his head, sometimes in his feet. And of course he could not do anything because

he was continuously occupied, obsessed with the fly.

He was taken to the psychoanalysts and they said, " This is just in your mind --

there is no fly! And no fly can move in your bloodstream, there is no

possibility. Even if a fly has entered it must have died! And now six months

have passed; it cannot be alive inside you. "

He listened, but he could not believe it because his experience was far more

solid. He was taken to the doctors and everybody examined him and they did

everything, but finally they will say, " It is just a mental thing. You are

imagining. " He will listen what they were saying, but he could not trust because

his experience was far more certain than their words.

His family brought him to me as a last resort. The man was looking very tired

because he was being taken to one person, then to another, then all kinds of

physicians -- allopaths and homeopaths and naturopaths -- and he was really

tired. In the first place the fly was tiring him, and now all these " pathies " ,

medicines. And everybody was insulting him -- that was his feeling, that they

were saying that he was just imagining. Is he a fool or he is mad, that he will

imagine such a thing? They were all humiliating him -- that was his feeling.

I looked at the man and I said, " It is so clear that the fly is inside! "

For a moment he was puzzled. He could not believe me, because nobody has said

that to him -- because nobody has considered him. And they ALL were right and I

was wrong -- there was no fly, but the madman has to be considered.

And I said, " All those fools are just wasting your time; you should have come

first here. It is such a simple thing to bring the fly out; there is no need to

bother. Medicines won't help -- you are not ill. Psycholanalysis will not help

-- you are not crazy. "

And immediately he was a changed man! He looked at his wife and said, " Now what

do you say? This is the right man, " he said, " who really knows. And all those

fools were trying to convince me that there is no fly. It is there! "

I said to him that, " It is simple -- we will take it out. You lie down. "

I covered him with a blanket and told him to keep his eyes closed and " I will do

some mantra, some magic, and we will bring the fly out. You just keep quiet so

that the fly sits somewhere. Otherwise the fly is continuously running -- where

to catch it? "

He said, " That looks logical. I will keep absolutely still! "

And I said, " Don't open your eyes. Just remain silent, breathe slowly, so the

fly settles somewhere, so we can catch hold of it! "

Then I rushed into the house to find a fly. It was a little bit difficult

because for the first time I was trying that, but finally I succeeded -- I could

get a fly in a bottle. And I came to the man, I moved my hand on his body, and I

asked him, " Where the fly is? " And he said, " In the belly. " And I touched the

belly and I said, " Of course it is there! " And I convinced him that I perfectly

believe in him and then I uncovered his blanket and showed him the fly.

And he said to the wife, " Now see! And give this bottle to me; I will go all to

those fools and take all the fees that they have taken from me! I have wasted

thousands of rupees, and all that they did was they told me I am mad! And now I

don't feel the fly anywhere, because it is in the bottle! "

He took the bottle, he went to the doctors.

One of the doctors who knew me, he came to see me. He said, " How you managed?

Six months a fly can live in the body? And that man has taken his fee back from

me, because he was making such a fuss that I said, 'Better give it back to him!'

And he proved that he was right! "

I said, " It is not the point who is right. "

Gautam the Buddha defines truth as " that which works " . This is the ancient most

pragmatic definition of truth: " that which works " ! All the devices are truth in

this sense: they work; they are only devices. The Buddha's work is Upaya; Upaya

exactly means device.

Meditation is an Upaya, a device. It simply helps you to get rid of that which

you have not got in the first place -- the fly: the ego, the misery, the

anguish! It helps you to get free of it, but in fact it is not there. But it is

not to be told...

And Krishnamurti has been doing that: he has been telling crazy people that the

fly does not exist and you don't need any doctor. I say to you: the fly exists

and you need the doctor! Because just by telling to you that the fly does not

exist is not going to help you at all.

For thousands of years you have been told the ego does not exist. Has it helped

you in any way? There have been people who have told, in this country

particularly, that the whole world is illusory, MAYA, it does not exist, but has

it helped India in any way? The true test is there: whether it has helped,

whether it has made people more authentic, more real. It has not helped at all.

It has made people more deeply cunning, split, schizophrenic; it has made them

hypocrites.

All the religions have done this, because they don't consider you. And you are

far more important than the ultimate truth, because the ultimate truth has

nothing to do with y ou right now. You are living in a dreamworld; some device

is needed which can help you to come out of it. The moment you are out of it,

you will know it was a dream -- but a person who is dreaming, to tell him that

it is all dream is meaningless.

Have you not observed in your dreams that when you are dreaming it looks real?

And every morning you have found that it was unreal. hut again in the night you

forget all your understanding of the day -- again the dream becomes real. It has

been happening again and again: every night the dream becomes real, every

morning you know it is false, but that knowing does not help. In the dream one

can even dream that this is a dream.

And that's what has happened in India: people are living in maya, deeply in it,

and still talking that " This is all maya. " And this talk too is part of their

dream; it does not destroy the dream. In fact it makes the dream more rooted in

them, because now there is no need to get rid of it -- because it is a dream! So

why get rid of it? It does not matter.

In a subtle way all the religions have done this: they have talked from the

highest peak to the people for whom that peak does not exist yet. The people are

living in darkness, and you go on telling them that darkness has no existence.

It is true -- darkness has no existence, it is only the absence of light -- but

just by saying to people that darkness has no existence is not going to bring

light in.

That's what Krishnamurti is doing; it has been done by many people. Nagarjuna

did it -- Krishnamurti is not new, not at least in the East. Nagarjuna did it:

he said, " Everything is false. The world is false, the ego is false, nothing

exists. Because nothing exists you are already free. There is no need for any

meditation, there is no need for any Master. There is no need to find out any

device, strategy, technique, because in the first place there is no problem. Why

go on looking for solutions? Those solutions will create more problems; they are

not going to help. "

Nagarjuna did it; before Nagarjuna, Mahakashyap did it, and it has been a long

tradition. Zen people have been saying the same thing for centuries.

Krishnamurti never uses the word " Zen " , but whatsoever he is talking is nothing

but Zen -- simple Zen.

Zen says no effort is needed, nothing has to be done. When nothing has to be

done, what is the need of a Master? -- because the Master will tell you to do

something. Nothing has to be done -- what is the need of the scriptures? --

because the scriptures will tell you to do something, to know something. Nothing

has to be done, nothing has to be known. You are already there where you are

trying to reach.

And I know this is true, but to talk about this ultimate truth to people who are

living in tremendous darkness is futile . Prem Pantha, no enlightened person can

ever be wrong, but only few enlightened persons have been of help. The majority

of enlightened people have been of no help at all, for the simple reason because

they never considered the other.

In fact, George Gurdjieff used to say, " Don't consider the other. " It was one of

his basic teachings: " Don't consider the other. Just say what is absolutely

true. " But the absolute truth is truth only when experienced; people are living

in relative truth.

My approach is different from Krishnamurti's. I know that one day you will come

to that point where nothing is needed -- no Master, no teaching, no scripture --

but right now the scripture can be of help, the methods can be of help, and

certainly a living Master can be of immense help. The function of the Master is

to give you that which you already have and to take away that which you don't

have at all.

September 25, 2009

Wikipedia says Osho started the bioterror in USA

so he was thrown out

was OSho good or bad?

thanks

, " vvootla " <vvootla wrote:

>

> ||| aum namO bhagavathe vAsudevAya |||

>

> Namaster Shri Rajarshi/Vijay

>

> On JK's views on a Guru:

>

> This is what Osho has to say about JK and his views on a Master. May be it is

useful. I haven't read a lot of JK or even Osho (little bits and pieces on the

web or an occassional article or so). So I cannot vouch for the truth level of

this. You can make your own judgements.

>

> <Begin Quote>

>

> Question: Osho, Can An enlightened person be wrong? This refers to what you

told us about J. Krishnamurti, who keeps on saying that one does not Need a

Master, which is actually not right please comment.

>

> Osho: Prem Pantha, An Enlightened person can never be wrong. Neither J.

Krishnamurti is wrong, but he never considers the situation in which you are. He

considers only the space in which he is, and that freedom is part of

enlightenment. The enlightened person has reached the highest peak of

consciousness; his abode is on Everest.

>

> Now it is his freedom to speak according to the peak, the sunlit peak where he

is, or to consider the people who are still in the dark valley, who know nothing

about the light, for whom the peak of the Everest is only a dream, only a

perhaps " . This is the freedom of the enlightened person. Krishnamurti speaks in

terms where he is.

>

> I speak in terms where you are, I consider you, because if I am speaking to

you, you have to be taken in consideration. I have to lead you towards the

highest peak, but the journey will begin in the dark valley, in your

unconsciousness. If I talk about my experience, absolutely inconsiderate of you,

I am right, but I am not useful to you.

>

> An enlightened person is never wrong, but he can be useful or he can be

useless. J. Krishnamurti is useless! He is perfectly right; about that there is

no question, because I know the peak and what he is saying is certainly true --

from the vision of the peak. Those who have arrived, for them the journey

becomes almost a dream phenomenon. For those who have not arrived the journey is

real, the goal is just a dream. They are living in two different worlds. When

you are talking to a madman you have to consider him; if you don't consider him

you cannot help him.

>

> Once a madman was brought to me. He had this crazy idea that one afternoon

when he was sleeping, a fly has entered his mouth. And because he used to sleep

with open mouth, nobody can deny the possibility. And since then he was very

much disturbed because the fly was roaming inside him, jumping inside him,

moving in his belly, going to his bladder, circulating in his bloodstream,

sometimes in his head, sometimes in his feet. And of course he could not do

anything because he was continuously occupied, obsessed with the fly.

>

> He was taken to the psychoanalysts and they said, " This is just in your mind

-- there is no fly! And no fly can move in your bloodstream, there is no

possibility. Even if a fly has entered it must have died! And now six months

have passed; it cannot be alive inside you. "

>

> He listened, but he could not believe it because his experience was far more

solid. He was taken to the doctors and everybody examined him and they did

everything, but finally they will say, " It is just a mental thing. You are

imagining. " He will listen what they were saying, but he could not trust because

his experience was far more certain than their words.

>

> His family brought him to me as a last resort. The man was looking very tired

because he was being taken to one person, then to another, then all kinds of

physicians -- allopaths and homeopaths and naturopaths -- and he was really

tired. In the first place the fly was tiring him, and now all these " pathies " ,

medicines. And everybody was insulting him -- that was his feeling, that they

were saying that he was just imagining. Is he a fool or he is mad, that he will

imagine such a thing? They were all humiliating him -- that was his feeling.

>

> I looked at the man and I said, " It is so clear that the fly is inside! "

> For a moment he was puzzled. He could not believe me, because nobody has said

that to him -- because nobody has considered him. And they ALL were right and I

was wrong -- there was no fly, but the madman has to be considered.

>

> And I said, " All those fools are just wasting your time; you should have come

first here. It is such a simple thing to bring the fly out; there is no need to

bother. Medicines won't help -- you are not ill. Psycholanalysis will not help

-- you are not crazy. "

>

> And immediately he was a changed man! He looked at his wife and said, " Now

what do you say? This is the right man, " he said, " who really knows. And all

those fools were trying to convince me that there is no fly. It is there! "

> I said to him that, " It is simple -- we will take it out. You lie down. "

>

> I covered him with a blanket and told him to keep his eyes closed and " I will

do some mantra, some magic, and we will bring the fly out. You just keep quiet

so that the fly sits somewhere. Otherwise the fly is continuously running --

where to catch it? "

>

> He said, " That looks logical. I will keep absolutely still! "

> And I said, " Don't open your eyes. Just remain silent, breathe slowly, so the

fly settles somewhere, so we can catch hold of it! "

>

> Then I rushed into the house to find a fly. It was a little bit difficult

because for the first time I was trying that, but finally I succeeded -- I could

get a fly in a bottle. And I came to the man, I moved my hand on his body, and I

asked him, " Where the fly is? " And he said, " In the belly. " And I touched the

belly and I said, " Of course it is there! " And I convinced him that I perfectly

believe in him and then I uncovered his blanket and showed him the fly.

>

> And he said to the wife, " Now see! And give this bottle to me; I will go all

to those fools and take all the fees that they have taken from me! I have wasted

thousands of rupees, and all that they did was they told me I am mad! And now I

don't feel the fly anywhere, because it is in the bottle! "

>

> He took the bottle, he went to the doctors.

> One of the doctors who knew me, he came to see me. He said, " How you managed?

Six months a fly can live in the body? And that man has taken his fee back from

me, because he was making such a fuss that I said, 'Better give it back to him!'

And he proved that he was right! "

> I said, " It is not the point who is right. "

>

> Gautam the Buddha defines truth as " that which works " . This is the ancient

most pragmatic definition of truth: " that which works " ! All the devices are

truth in this sense: they work; they are only devices. The Buddha's work is

Upaya; Upaya exactly means device.

>

> Meditation is an Upaya, a device. It simply helps you to get rid of that which

you have not got in the first place -- the fly: the ego, the misery, the

anguish! It helps you to get free of it, but in fact it is not there. But it is

not to be told...

>

> And Krishnamurti has been doing that: he has been telling crazy people that

the fly does not exist and you don't need any doctor. I say to you: the fly

exists and you need the doctor! Because just by telling to you that the fly does

not exist is not going to help you at all.

>

> For thousands of years you have been told the ego does not exist. Has it

helped you in any way? There have been people who have told, in this country

particularly, that the whole world is illusory, MAYA, it does not exist, but has

it helped India in any way? The true test is there: whether it has helped,

whether it has made people more authentic, more real. It has not helped at all.

It has made people more deeply cunning, split, schizophrenic; it has made them

hypocrites.

>

> All the religions have done this, because they don't consider you. And you are

far more important than the ultimate truth, because the ultimate truth has

nothing to do with y ou right now. You are living in a dreamworld; some device

is needed which can help you to come out of it. The moment you are out of it,

you will know it was a dream -- but a person who is dreaming, to tell him that

it is all dream is meaningless.

>

> Have you not observed in your dreams that when you are dreaming it looks real?

And every morning you have found that it was unreal. hut again in the night you

forget all your understanding of the day -- again the dream becomes real. It has

been happening again and again: every night the dream becomes real, every

morning you know it is false, but that knowing does not help. In the dream one

can even dream that this is a dream.

>

> And that's what has happened in India: people are living in maya, deeply in

it, and still talking that " This is all maya. " And this talk too is part of

their dream; it does not destroy the dream. In fact it makes the dream more

rooted in them, because now there is no need to get rid of it -- because it is a

dream! So why get rid of it? It does not matter.

>

> In a subtle way all the religions have done this: they have talked from the

highest peak to the people for whom that peak does not exist yet. The people are

living in darkness, and you go on telling them that darkness has no existence.

It is true -- darkness has no existence, it is only the absence of light -- but

just by saying to people that darkness has no existence is not going to bring

light in.

>

> That's what Krishnamurti is doing; it has been done by many people. Nagarjuna

did it -- Krishnamurti is not new, not at least in the East. Nagarjuna did it:

he said, " Everything is false. The world is false, the ego is false, nothing

exists. Because nothing exists you are already free. There is no need for any

meditation, there is no need for any Master. There is no need to find out any

device, strategy, technique, because in the first place there is no problem. Why

go on looking for solutions? Those solutions will create more problems; they are

not going to help. "

>

> Nagarjuna did it; before Nagarjuna, Mahakashyap did it, and it has been a long

tradition. Zen people have been saying the same thing for centuries.

Krishnamurti never uses the word " Zen " , but whatsoever he is talking is nothing

but Zen -- simple Zen.

>

> Zen says no effort is needed, nothing has to be done. When nothing has to be

done, what is the need of a Master? -- because the Master will tell you to do

something. Nothing has to be done -- what is the need of the scriptures? --

because the scriptures will tell you to do something, to know something. Nothing

has to be done, nothing has to be known. You are already there where you are

trying to reach.

>

> And I know this is true, but to talk about this ultimate truth to people who

are living in tremendous darkness is futile . Prem Pantha, no enlightened person

can ever be wrong, but only few enlightened persons have been of help. The

majority of enlightened people have been of no help at all, for the simple

reason because they never considered the other.

>

> In fact, George Gurdjieff used to say, " Don't consider the other. " It was one

of his basic teachings: " Don't consider the other. Just say what is absolutely

true. " But the absolute truth is truth only when experienced; people are living

in relative truth.

>

> My approach is different from Krishnamurti's. I know that one day you will

come to that point where nothing is needed -- no Master, no teaching, no

scripture -- but right now the scripture can be of help, the methods can be of

help, and certainly a living Master can be of immense help. The function of the

Master is to give you that which you already have and to take away that which

you don't have at all.

>

> <End Quote>

>

September 25, 2009

Namaste Vijay,

I am sure that you have had read a lot and quite a knowledgeable person you are.

ignorng that, i am mentioing somethng which i've heared and cherished.

for Guru's importance, following is the very apt explanation which i think was

given in Vivekachudamani by great Adi Shankarachaarya.

" Guru is the TIGER IN THE DREAM who awakens you from the WORLD OF DREAMS " - Guru

and the world both are unreal once one is awakened.

Thakur used to repeat " Satchidananda is The Sadguru " . It is my belief that even

if no formal Guru is there in the Life of a MUMUKSHU, Brahman is always there

for him as Guru hence to put it anotherway, NO sincere seeker is WITHOUT GURU.

by the way following is the chain of message in VA list which triggered an event

where Satchidanda became a Tangible guru for me.

/message/382

The above probably relevent to your first two questions.

i again give a quote form VC where in Shankara again suggest a beautiful idea.

" We all are God who have forgotten that reality " .

for your third query, i wish to ask a counter question? Why we create dreams

while sleeping and then play happy, sad and frightened?

***

Again, i've no realisation myself. it si probably all partially cooked or

uncooked knowedge which is reproduced, which was liked by intelligence.

Warm Regards,

Utpal

, " pvklnrao " <pvklnrao wrote:

>

> Recently one of my friend had a question for me:

>

> 1. Can a Guru help us? He took Jiddu Krishnamurthy's view on this. JK claims

that a guru can not help any one and the self realisation has to come from with

in. My friend is asking, if a Guru is useless as JK claims, why did JK write so

many books (no offence to JK followers)

>

> 2. If a person has to realise on himself, how it can be?

>

> 3. If the fact is that there is no I but for Brahman, why all this Maya? Why

is Braham that is me has to go through the misery and in the end realise that he

is Brahman? Why not Brahman be Brahman and not create any thing?

>

> I could not give convincing answers to any of the questions.

>

> Best regards,

> Vijay

>

September 25, 2009

Dear Utpalji,

That mail of Narasimha, whos link you posted in your mail, is simple awesome. The energy of the writing is such that one is left speechless and amazed and filled with a deep sense of reverential humity for that great source of limitless compassion and bliss we call God. A sadguru is indeed God's representative on earth, IMO.

Someday this mail and the other mails of Narasimha will become guiding posts for thousands and thousands of genuine spiritual aspirants across ages, across generatoins, across countries. Indeed, this is the stuff of legends!

I feel blessed to be a member of this .

-Regards

Rajarshi

The upsurge (of consciousness) is Bhairava - Shiva Sutra--- On Fri, 25/9/09, vedic_pathak <vedic_pathak wrote:

vedic_pathak <vedic_pathak Re: Jiddu Krishnamurthy's view of Guru Date: Friday, 25 September, 2009, 2:04 PM

Namaste Vijay,I am sure that you have had read a lot and quite a knowledgeable person you are. ignorng that, i am mentioing somethng which i've heared and cherished.for Guru's importance, following is the very apt explanation which i think was given in Vivekachudamani by great Adi Shankarachaarya."Guru is the TIGER IN THE DREAM who awakens you from the WORLD OF DREAMS" - Guru and the world both are unreal once one is awakened.Thakur used to repeat " Satchidananda is The Sadguru". It is my belief that even if no formal Guru is there in the Life of a MUMUKSHU, Brahman is always there for him as Guru hence to put it anotherway, NO sincere seeker is WITHOUT GURU.by the way following is the chain of message in VA list which triggered an event where Satchidanda became a Tangible guru for me.http://groups. /

group/vedic- wisdom/message/ 382 The above probably relevent to your first two questions.i again give a quote form VC where in Shankara again suggest a beautiful idea."We all are God who have forgotten that reality".for your third query, i wish to ask a counter question? Why we create dreams while sleeping and then play happy, sad and frightened?***Again, i've no realisation myself. it si probably all partially cooked or uncooked knowedge which is reproduced, which was liked by intelligence.Warm Regards,Utpal, "pvklnrao" <pvklnrao@.. .> wrote:>> Recently one of my friend had a question for me:> > 1. Can a Guru help us? He took Jiddu Krishnamurthy' s

view on this. JK claims that a guru can not help any one and the self realisation has to come from with in. My friend is asking, if a Guru is useless as JK claims, why did JK write so many books (no offence to JK followers)> > 2. If a person has to realise on himself, how it can be?> > 3. If the fact is that there is no I but for Brahman, why all this Maya? Why is Braham that is me has to go through the misery and in the end realise that he is Brahman? Why not Brahman be Brahman and not create any thing?> > I could not give convincing answers to any of the questions.> > Best regards,> Vijay>

Now, send attachments up to 25MB with India Mail. Learn how.

September 25, 2009

Namaste Rajarashi,

Narasimha is contemporary to us and a professional with family life. Involved in

many Astrlogical clashes. that is why it is quite possible that some or many may

not understand his spiritual greatness. one thing i can say with 100% confidence

that he is no ordinary soul and i am really really blessed to be his shishya! it

was a punyodaya in my life when i was inspired to accept him as my guru on a

Janmaashtami day. i hope i live up to his expectations and stature. as you

rightly said, his writings will inspire the spiritualist of coming generations

and i add astrlogers as well.

Durgaashtami has already started and lets perform a heartmelting Chandi Homam

!!!

Best Regards,

Utpal

, rajarshi nandy <rajarshi14 wrote:

>

> Dear Utpalji,

>

> That mail of Narasimha, whos link you posted in your mail, is simple awesome.

The energy of the writing is such that one is left speechless and amazed and

filled with a deep sense of reverential humity for that great source of

limitless compassion and bliss we call God. A sadguru is indeed God's

representative on earth, IMO.

>

> Someday this mail and the other mails of Narasimha will become guiding posts

for thousands and thousands of genuine spiritual aspirants across ages, across

generatoins, across countries. Indeed, this is the stuff of legends!

>

> I feel blessed to be a member of this .

>

> -Regards

> Rajarshi

>

> The upsurge (of consciousness) is Bhairava - Shiva Sutra

>

> --- On Fri, 25/9/09, vedic_pathak <vedic_pathak wrote:

>

> vedic_pathak <vedic_pathak

> Re: Jiddu Krishnamurthy's view of Guru

>

> Friday, 25 September, 2009, 2:04 PM

>

> Namaste Vijay,

>

> I am sure that you have had read a lot and quite a knowledgeable person you

are. ignorng that, i am mentioing somethng which i've heared and cherished.

>

> for Guru's importance, following is the very apt explanation which i think was

given in Vivekachudamani by great Adi Shankarachaarya.

>

> " Guru is the TIGER IN THE DREAM who awakens you from the WORLD OF DREAMS " -

Guru and the world both are unreal once one is awakened.

>

> Thakur used to repeat " Satchidananda is The Sadguru " . It is my belief that

even if no formal Guru is there in the Life of a MUMUKSHU, Brahman is always

there for him as Guru hence to put it anotherway, NO sincere seeker is WITHOUT

GURU.

>

> by the way following is the chain of message in VA list which triggered an

event where Satchidanda became a Tangible guru for me.

>

> http://groups. / group/vedic- wisdom/message/ 382

>

> The above probably relevent to your first two questions.

>

> i again give a quote form VC where in Shankara again suggest a beautiful idea.

>

> " We all are God who have forgotten that reality " .

>

> for your third query, i wish to ask a counter question? Why we create dreams

while sleeping and then play happy, sad and frightened?

>

> ***

> Again, i've no realisation myself. it si probably all partially cooked or

uncooked knowedge which is reproduced, which was liked by intelligence.

>

> Warm Regards,

>

> Utpal

>

> , " pvklnrao " <pvklnrao@ .> wrote:

> >

> > Recently one of my friend had a question for me:

> >

> > 1. Can a Guru help us? He took Jiddu Krishnamurthy' s view on this. JK

claims that a guru can not help any one and the self realisation has to come

from with in. My friend is asking, if a Guru is useless as JK claims, why did JK

write so many books (no offence to JK followers)

> >

> > 2. If a person has to realise on himself, how it can be?

> >

> > 3. If the fact is that there is no I but for Brahman, why all this Maya? Why

is Braham that is me has to go through the misery and in the end realise that he

is Brahman? Why not Brahman be Brahman and not create any thing?

> >

> > I could not give convincing answers to any of the questions.

> >

> > Best regards,

> > Vijay

> >

>

Connect more, do more and share more with India Mail. Learn more.

http://in.overview.mail./

>

September 26, 2009

Namaste & Sadar Pranam to all enlightened souls of the group,

First of all I have to thank Utpalji to guide us to the link --> Msg # 382.

I am a new comer to this group who is in search of oneself and is lost in the crowd searching for peace. My quest & search for peace continues and hope this journey doesn't take too long till I find a Guru who could guide me and channelize my energy for the betterment of people around me.

I was taken aback when I read Rajarshiji's mail about the confusion prevailing in his mind about Guru. Because what Rajarshiji said was about 20 - 25% of my confused state and how come he is saying all that I had been asking myself for the last couple of years. I am still searching for the answers as my journey continues until I stumbled and fell into this wonderful group where I am able to get a few answers for the questions which were burning inside me to be quenched with convincing replies.

I followed the thread and liked the way Utpalji replied and directing us to the message #382 which Shri PVRji has aptly said - "Wait" till you get your Guru and in the meanwhile keep cleansing yourself. In this wait & journey of life what I have learnt is "patience" and Mother Nature has been very kind teaching me so many lessons.

For me, GURU will be person who will Guide Us to Reach HIM (our Creator) who is Ubquitous. I sincerly look forward for more enlightening exchanges from our beloved PVRji.

Jai MAA KAALI .

With Respects, Devbrato Sarkar

"Wealth is not just about making the money BUT making the MAN while he is making money".--- On Fri, 9/25/09, vedic_pathak <vedic_pathak wrote:

vedic_pathak <vedic_pathak Re: Jiddu Krishnamurthy's view of Guru Date: Friday, September 25, 2009, 10:52 PM

Namaste Rajarashi,Narasimha is contemporary to us and a professional with family life. Involved in many Astrlogical clashes. that is why it is quite possible that some or many may not understand his spiritual greatness. one thing i can say with 100% confidence that he is no ordinary soul and i am really really blessed to be his shishya! it was a punyodaya in my life when i was inspired to accept him as my guru on a Janmaashtami day. i hope i live up to his expectations and stature. as you rightly said, his writings will inspire the spiritualist of coming generations and i add astrlogers as well.Durgaashtami has already started and lets perform a heartmelting Chandi Homam !!!Best Regards,Utpal, rajarshi nandy

<rajarshi14@ ...> wrote:>> Dear Utpalji,> > That mail of Narasimha, whos link you posted in your mail, is simple awesome. The energy of the writing is such that one is left speechless and amazed and filled with a deep sense of reverential humity for that great source of limitless compassion and bliss we call God. A sadguru is indeed God's representative on earth, IMO.> > Someday this mail and the other mails of Narasimha will become guiding posts for thousands and thousands of genuine spiritual aspirants across ages, across generatoins, across countries. Indeed, this is the stuff of legends!> > I feel blessed to be a member of this .> > -Regards> Rajarshi> > > > > > The upsurge (of consciousness) is Bhairava - Shiva Sutra> > --- On Fri,

25/9/09, vedic_pathak <vedic_pathak@ ...> wrote:> > > vedic_pathak <vedic_pathak@ ...>> Re: Jiddu Krishnamurthy' s view of Guru> > Friday, 25 September, 2009, 2:04 PM> > > > > > > Namaste Vijay,> > I am sure that you have had read a lot and quite a knowledgeable person you are. ignorng that, i am mentioing somethng which i've heared and cherished.> > for Guru's importance, following is the very apt explanation which i think was given in Vivekachudamani by great Adi Shankarachaarya.> > "Guru is the TIGER IN THE DREAM who awakens you from the WORLD OF DREAMS" - Guru and the

world both are unreal once one is awakened.> > Thakur used to repeat " Satchidananda is The Sadguru". It is my belief that even if no formal Guru is there in the Life of a MUMUKSHU, Brahman is always there for him as Guru hence to put it anotherway, NO sincere seeker is WITHOUT GURU.> > by the way following is the chain of message in VA list which triggered an event where Satchidanda became a Tangible guru for me.> > http://groups. / group/vedic- wisdom/message/ 382 > > The above probably relevent to your first two questions.> > i again give a quote form VC where in Shankara again suggest a beautiful idea.> > "We all are God who have forgotten that reality".> > for your third query, i wish to ask a counter question? Why we create dreams while sleeping and then play happy, sad and

frightened?> > ***> Again, i've no realisation myself. it si probably all partially cooked or uncooked knowedge which is reproduced, which was liked by intelligence.> > Warm Regards,> > Utpal> > , "pvklnrao" <pvklnrao@ .> wrote:> >> > Recently one of my friend had a question for me:> > > > 1. Can a Guru help us? He took Jiddu Krishnamurthy' s view on this. JK claims that a guru can not help any one and the self realisation has to come from with in. My friend is asking, if a Guru is useless as JK claims, why did JK write so many books (no offence to JK followers)> > > > 2. If a person has to realise on himself, how it can be?> > > > 3. If the fact is that there is no I but for Brahman, why all this Maya? Why is Braham that is me has to go through the misery and in the end

realise that he is Brahman? Why not Brahman be Brahman and not create any thing?> > > > I could not give convincing answers to any of the questions.> > > > Best regards,> > Vijay> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Connect more, do more and share more with India Mail. Learn more. http://in.overview. mail.. com/>

September 26, 2009

Namaste,

First of all, I want to respectfully remind people that this is meant

for discussing spirituality and not meant to be a fan club or an admiration

society for anyone.

If you like something I write, please try to benefit from it and put it to use.

* * *

Krishnamurthy is correct in a way and also incorrect in a way.

Suppose you ask a brilliant swimmer how one can swim, he may say " oh, it's so

easy. You jump into the water, just move your hands and legs and there you go. A

teacher cannot teach you. You have to jump and discover it yourself " . It seems

so easy and natural to him, but not for one who cannot swim. If one just jumps

into water and starts moving hands and legs, one may even drown!

Though a swimming instructor cannot ensure that you learn swimming in a specific

time period or that you become an expert in swimming, he can engage in practices

that maximize the probability of you learning swimming successfully oneday. He

can also stop you from drowning in the beginning.

It is true that there is no formula to ensure self-realization in a specific

time period. One can look at self-realization as a happy accident that just

happens. However, rishis and seers gave many ways and factors that increase the

probability of that accident considerably. Guidance from a good guru will also

increase the probability of that accident considerably. However, even a good

guru cannot ensure realization. One can only maximize its chance.

* * *

Aadi Shankara is so correct and wise in saying that a guru is the tiger in a

dream who awakens you from the world of dreams. The tiger may just be a dream

object and unreal, but, one would stay in the dream much longer if not for the

tiger roaring in the dream!! Similarly, a guru is just imaginary. All that

exists is god and the tendency to see different people/obejects (instead of

seeing all as god and only god) is like imagining various dream objects. So

guru, friend, enemy, wife, son etc are all detailed imaginations of the mind and

all that exists is god. However, one will be stuck in this long dream called

samsaara (wordly life), if the tiger called guru does not appear and roar. A

beautiful and highly meaningful analogy!

* * *

The use of gurus who are pretentious, gurus who have not realized themselves,

gurus who have pride, gurus who have selfish agendas and gurus with a bloated

sense of self-importance, is very limited. However, please remember that even

such gurus can be of immense benefit to *some* people. Everyone has a role to

play and that is why Nature has created them!

But an ideal sadguru who can really give you a strong push in your spiritual

pursuits is one who has no ego, one who does not have a bloated sense of

self-importance, one who has no pride, one who identifies with and is guided by

the Infinite and one who is fulfilling his/her dharma without any expectations.

* * *

> > > 3. If the fact is that there is no I but

> > > for Brahman, why all this Maya?

Let me ask a similar question:

If whatever happens in a dream is not really happening and just being imagined

in your mind, why all that imagination? Why not just be dreamless?

*That* is not the correct or useful question! If the fact is that you *are* in a

dream, a more useful question is: How can I realize that I am in a dream and

come out of the dream into a state of wakefulness?

* * *

I briefly described how my relatitonship with my spiritual guru started in the

mail that Utpal mentioned below. During the time Manish was waiting for me to

start using the rudraksha mala he sent, he used to call me now and then and talk

about spiritual matters. He would sometimes talk about very specific things that

I was thinking of just before he called. He would address my question without my

asking. A couple of times, I mentioned that to him and said he was answering

exactly what I was thinking of, as though he read my mind. He would humbly say,

" do you think that I know your thoughts? I have no clue. I am just saying what I

feel like saying. Shiva wanted to answer your question and used me as an

instrument to answer your question. It is god who does everything. We are mere

instruments. "

Once he said, " my message is *not* that I am special. My message is that *you*

are special. My message is that *everyone* is special. I am not here to just

experience divinity and go. I am here to show people that it is possible even

today and make *thousands* of people experience divinity. I do not want people

to become like me. I want to see thousands of people becoming *better than* me. "

He also said once, " I am not here to show an alternative spiritual path to

people. If one is a Krishna devotee, let one remain a Krishna devotee. If one is

an aghori, let one remain an aghori. If one is in a religious movement, let one

remain in that movement. If one is a Christian, let him remain a Christian. I

just want people to realize the essence of religion and spirituality, imbibe it

in their thinking and become better in their own chosen path. "

Already, so much change happened in the 5.5 years since he called me first. I

never thought I could be in the state I am today. I never thought the changes in

my thinking that happened in the last few years were possible. I never thought

so many seemingly normal people would be able to perform a homam regularly. When

Manish told me that today's times need a lot of people performing homam

regularly and that a lot of people were out there who would start homam and make

great progress with 5-6 years of homam, I was not so sure. Manish always knew

what to do, was quite confident and did not worry about how and whether it would

get done. At the same time, he never lost the attitude of " She is doing and I am

just an instrument " and imbibed that attitude in me too!

As I said before, the sign of a good guru is that you see transformation within

yourself. The sign of a good guru is that you see things getting done that once

seemed impossible or very difficult. The sign of a good guru is that you achieve

far more than before and yet have far less attachment to (and pride in) what you

do.

Best regards,

Narasimha

Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAstrologer.org/homam

Do Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAstrologer.org/tarpana

Spirituality:

Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro.home.comcast.net

Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAstrologer.org

Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagannath.org

---- vedic_pathak <vedic_pathak wrote:

> Namaste Rajarashi,

>

> Narasimha is contemporary to us and a professional with family life. Involved

in many Astrlogical clashes. that is why it is quite possible that some or many

may not understand his spiritual greatness. one thing i can say with 100%

confidence that he is no ordinary soul and i am really really blessed to be his

shishya! it was a punyodaya in my life when i was inspired to accept him as my

guru on a Janmaashtami day. i hope i live up to his expectations and stature. as

you rightly said, his writings will inspire the spiritualist of coming

generations and i add astrlogers as well.

>

> Durgaashtami has already started and lets perform a heartmelting Chandi Homam

!!!

>

> Best Regards,

>

> Utpal

>

> , rajarshi nandy <rajarshi14 wrote:

> >

> > Dear Utpalji,

> >

> > That mail of Narasimha, whos link you posted in your mail, is simple

awesome. The energy of the writing is such that one is left speechless and

amazed and filled with a deep sense of reverential humity for that great source

of limitless compassion and bliss we call God. A sadguru is indeed God's

representative on earth, IMO.

> >

> > Someday this mail and the other mails of Narasimha will become guiding posts

for thousands and thousands of genuine spiritual aspirants across ages, across

generatoins, across countries. Indeed, this is the stuff of legends!

> >

> > I feel blessed to be a member of this .

> >

> > -Regards

> > Rajarshi

> >

> > The upsurge (of consciousness) is Bhairava - Shiva Sutra

> >

> > --- On Fri, 25/9/09, vedic_pathak <vedic_pathak wrote:

> >

> > vedic_pathak <vedic_pathak

> > Re: Jiddu Krishnamurthy's view of Guru

> >

> > Friday, 25 September, 2009, 2:04 PM

> >

> > Namaste Vijay,

> >

> > I am sure that you have had read a lot and quite a knowledgeable person you

are. ignorng that, i am mentioing somethng which i've heared and cherished.

> >

> > for Guru's importance, following is the very apt explanation which i think

was given in Vivekachudamani by great Adi Shankarachaarya.

> >

> > " Guru is the TIGER IN THE DREAM who awakens you from the WORLD OF DREAMS " -

Guru and the world both are unreal once one is awakened.

> >

> > Thakur used to repeat " Satchidananda is The Sadguru " . It is my belief that

even if no formal Guru is there in the Life of a MUMUKSHU, Brahman is always

there for him as Guru hence to put it anotherway, NO sincere seeker is WITHOUT

GURU.

> >

> > by the way following is the chain of message in VA list which triggered an

event where Satchidanda became a Tangible guru for me.

> >

> > http://groups. / group/vedic- wisdom/message/ 382

> >

> > The above probably relevent to your first two questions.

> >

> > i again give a quote form VC where in Shankara again suggest a beautiful

idea.

> >

> > " We all are God who have forgotten that reality " .

> >

> > for your third query, i wish to ask a counter question? Why we create dreams

while sleeping and then play happy, sad and frightened?

> >

> > ***

> > Again, i've no realisation myself. it si probably all partially cooked or

uncooked knowedge which is reproduced, which was liked by intelligence.

> >

> > Warm Regards,

> >

> > Utpal

> >

> > , " pvklnrao " <pvklnrao@ .> wrote:

> > >

> > > Recently one of my friend had a question for me:

> > >

> > > 1. Can a Guru help us? He took Jiddu Krishnamurthy' s view on this. JK

claims that a guru can not help any one and the self realisation has to come

from with in. My friend is asking, if a Guru is useless as JK claims, why did JK

write so many books (no offence to JK followers)

> > >

> > > 2. If a person has to realise on himself, how it can be?

> > >

> > > 3. If the fact is that there is no I but for Brahman, why all this Maya?

Why is Braham that is me has to go through the misery and in the end realise

that he is Brahman? Why not Brahman be Brahman and not create any thing?

> > >

> > > I could not give convincing answers to any of the questions.

> > >

> > > Best regards,

> > > Vijay

September 27, 2009

namaste,

>not meant to be a fan club or an admiration

>society for anyone.

thanks for the timely reminder. i'll keep this in mind...

Best Regards,

Utpal

, Narasimha PVR Rao <pvr wrote:

>

> Namaste,

>

> First of all, I want to respectfully remind people that this is

meant for discussing spirituality and not meant to be a fan club or an

admiration society for anyone.

>

> If you like something I write, please try to benefit from it and put it to

use.

>

> * * *

>

> Krishnamurthy is correct in a way and also incorrect in a way.

>

> Suppose you ask a brilliant swimmer how one can swim, he may say " oh, it's so

easy. You jump into the water, just move your hands and legs and there you go. A

teacher cannot teach you. You have to jump and discover it yourself " . It seems

so easy and natural to him, but not for one who cannot swim. If one just jumps

into water and starts moving hands and legs, one may even drown!

>

> Though a swimming instructor cannot ensure that you learn swimming in a

specific time period or that you become an expert in swimming, he can engage in

practices that maximize the probability of you learning swimming successfully

oneday. He can also stop you from drowning in the beginning.

>

> It is true that there is no formula to ensure self-realization in a specific

time period. One can look at self-realization as a happy accident that just

happens. However, rishis and seers gave many ways and factors that increase the

probability of that accident considerably. Guidance from a good guru will also

increase the probability of that accident considerably. However, even a good

guru cannot ensure realization. One can only maximize its chance.

>

> * * *

>

> Aadi Shankara is so correct and wise in saying that a guru is the tiger in a