Guest guest Posted August 17, 2009 Report Share Posted August 17, 2009 Friends,We saw in posting no.1 as to what Manu Smruti says about Brahmins living in a land ruled by Sudras. The same smruti also says that such Brahmanas become degraded by associating with fallen people(patita-samsargaat) at their place of work. That Smruti declares, " If a Brahmana disassociates himself from lower caste people and associates only with higher caste people, he attains greatness. If he does the opposite, he becomes a sudra(Manu4.245). Knowledgeable people hold the view that many of the professions like software engineering , technological jobs,a Govt. servant(raja sevaka), a teacher working in a school, a doctor etc. etc. --- all of these professions fall under the category of sudra`s domain. They hold that a Brahmin should not take employment from anyone (especially from sudras). In this regard the Kurma Purana says---"Those Brahmanas who make a living from protecting cows, engage in trade, become artists, take the occupation of servants, and lend money on interest are no better than sudras (......... vipran sudra-vad acharet).""O Brahmanas, one who does not study the Vedas (anadhitya sruti dvijah) but carefully endeavours for other pursuits is certainly foolish( sa sammudo) and ostracized from vedic life( veda-bahyo dvijatibhih). Brahmanas should not speak to such a person"(na sambhasyo). But, Srimad Bhagavatam speaks of a permissible exception and mentions the circumstances in which a Brahmana may pursue another occupation. Verse 47 of chapter 17 of Canto 11 says that if a Brahmana can not support himself through his regular duties and is suffering,he may adopt the occupation of a merchant and overcome his destitute condition by buying and selling material things. If he continues to suffer extreme poverty even as a merchant, then he may adopt the occupation of a kshatriya. But under no circumstances become like a dog, accepting an ordinary master. Srimad Bhagavatam (12.3.35) also states that this is one of the symptoms of Kaliyuga. It says," Businessmen will engage in petty commerce and earn their money by cheating. Even when there is no emergency, people will consider any degraded occupation quite acceptable.The Dharma Sastras declare that if one takes birth in a Brahmana family but does not cultivate scriptural knowledge, he can not be accepted as a Brahmana. Visnu Dharma Sastra 93.7 says that religious- minded people should never give even a drop of water to the hypocritical son of a Brahmana, who is ignorant of the Vedas. Manu Smriti 2.157 says that a brahmana who does not study the Vedas is similar to a wooden elephant or a deer made of skin, i.e., an elephant or deer only in name but does not function effectively as such. Moreover, the same smriti says that until a Brahmana qualifies himself in the Vedas, he is on the same level as a sudra(2.172 Sudrena hi samah tavad yavad vede na jayate). In Mahabharata, Santi Parva 189.7 it has been stated that Brahmanas who lead a life of violence, lies and greed, who are impure and indulge in all kinds of karmic activity in order to maintain their lives(sarvakarmopajivinah) are degraded to the status of sudras(dvija sudratam gatah). Such a person , who eats anything and everything without discrimination, who is attached to worldly things, who will accept any occupation just to make money(sarvo karma karo asuchih), who has given up Vedic Dharma (tyakta vedastvanarchah) and proper behaviour is called a sudra (sa vai sudra iti smrutah). Let each one of our community weigh our respective merit and conclude as to where we are as Brahmins.(to be continued)G.Balasubramanian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 18, 2009 Report Share Posted August 18, 2009 Dear Sri G Balasubramanian Ji, I appreciate your efforts of posting these material, but i'm not able to understand the motive or the reason behind these postings. Is it your concern that today there are no Brahmins who live up to these stringent rules? Also, what is in your opinion about who is a Brahmin? is it someone who took Birth in a caste called "Brahmins" and is your concern is about them? I see some points to be good and some are non sense..i know that these are not the lines written buy you but still..and also some of practises were dispelled long back from the society consdiering them as social evils ..so are you trying to re-establish them ? (say for example: "If a Brahmana disassociates himself from lower caste people and associates only with higher caste people, he attains greatness.") No offense meant. Thanks KK --- On Tue, 8/18/09, G Balasubramanian <gbsub wrote: G Balasubramanian <gbsub DHARMA OF BRAHMIN---2brahmin_world, viprasamhitha (AT) googl (DOT) com, asthikasamaj, USBrahmins , -Vedic-Dharma , Date: Tuesday, August 18, 2009, 8:27 AM Friends,We saw in posting no.1 as to what Manu Smruti says about Brahmins living in a land ruled by Sudras. The same smruti also says that such Brahmanas become degraded by associating with fallen people(patita-samsargaat) at their place of work. That Smruti declares, " If a Brahmana disassociates himself from lower caste people and associates only with higher caste people, he attains greatness. If he does the opposite, he becomes a sudra(Manu4. 245). Knowledgeable people hold the view that many of the professions like software engineering , technological jobs,a Govt. servant(raja sevaka), a teacher working in a school, a doctor etc. etc. --- all of these professions fall under the category of sudra`s domain. They hold that a Brahmin should not take employment from anyone (especially from sudras). In this regard the Kurma Purana says---"Those Brahmanas who make a living from protecting cows, engage in trade, become artists, take the occupation of servants, and lend money on interest are no better than sudras (......... vipran sudra-vad acharet).""O Brahmanas, one who does not study the Vedas (anadhitya sruti dvijah) but carefully endeavours for other pursuits is certainly foolish( sa sammudo) and ostracized from vedic life( veda-bahyo dvijatibhih). Brahmanas should not speak to such a person"(na sambhasyo). But, Srimad Bhagavatam speaks of a permissible exception and mentions the circumstances in which a Brahmana may pursue another occupation. Verse 47 of chapter 17 of Canto 11 says that if a Brahmana can not support himself through his regular duties and is suffering,he may adopt the occupation of a merchant and overcome his destitute condition by buying and selling material things. If he continues to suffer extreme poverty even as a merchant, then he may adopt the occupation of a kshatriya. But under no circumstances become like a dog, accepting an ordinary master. Srimad Bhagavatam (12.3.35) also states that this is one of the symptoms of Kaliyuga. It says," Businessmen will engage in petty commerce and earn their money by cheating. Even when there is no emergency, people will consider any degraded occupation quite acceptable.The Dharma Sastras declare that if one takes birth in a Brahmana family but does not cultivate scriptural knowledge, he can not be accepted as a Brahmana. Visnu Dharma Sastra 93.7 says that religious- minded people should never give even a drop of water to the hypocritical son of a Brahmana, who is ignorant of the Vedas. Manu Smriti 2.157 says that a brahmana who does not study the Vedas is similar to a wooden elephant or a deer made of skin, i.e., an elephant or deer only in name but does not function effectively as such. Moreover, the same smriti says that until a Brahmana qualifies himself in the Vedas, he is on the same level as a sudra(2.172 Sudrena hi samah tavad yavad vede na jayate). In Mahabharata, Santi Parva 189.7 it has been stated that Brahmanas who lead a life of violence, lies and greed, who are impure and indulge in all kinds of karmic activity in order to maintain their lives(sarvakarmopajivinah ) are degraded to the status of sudras(dvija sudratam gatah). Such a person , who eats anything and everything without discrimination, who is attached to worldly things, who will accept any occupation just to make money(sarvo karma karo asuchih), who has given up Vedic Dharma (tyakta vedastvanarchah) and proper behaviour is called a sudra (sa vai sudra iti smrutah). Let each one of our community weigh our respective merit and conclude as to where we are as Brahmins.(to be continued)G.Balasubramanian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 19, 2009 Report Share Posted August 19, 2009 Disassociating from lowercast people ... If my understanding is correct, there is lowercast. There are 4 casts. Brahmana - The knowledge seekers and knowledge preachers Kshatriya - The protectors Vaisya - Business Sudra - The laborers None of these were talked as lowercast people. Untouchability is not advocated by our Rshis! We ready commenteries written in English and make our judgements. I am not sure of the original verses (and I am not that qualified to interpret them even if I knew them), but, Manu may have meant, a Brahmin who associates with other cast people (here association is not merely by touching or talking with them but doing what they do and behave like them) may not be fit to be called a brahmin. How ever, I see exceptions ever for this. Parasuram did behave like a kshatriya. How ever, we still consider to be a great brahmin. Best regards, Vijay , krishna Kanth <kritels > Dear Sri G Balasubramanian Ji, > > I appreciate your efforts of posting these material, but i'm not able to understand the motive or the reason behind these postings. Is it your concern that today there are no Brahmins who live up to these stringent rules? > > Also, what is in your opinion about who is a Brahmin? is it someone who took Birth in a caste called " Brahmins " and is your concern is about them? > > I see some points to be good and some are non sense..i know that these are not the lines written buy you but still..and also some of practises were dispelled long back from the society consdiering them as social evils ..so are you trying to re-establish them ? (say for example: " If a Brahmana disassociates himself from lower caste people and associates only with higher caste people, he attains greatness. " ) > > No offense meant. > > Thanks > KK Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 19, 2009 Report Share Posted August 19, 2009 namaste, > None of these were talked as lowercast people. > Untouchability is not advocated by our Rshis! > We ready commenteries written in English and make our judgements. " Sanskrit commentaries " are not a panacea free from these lines of thinking. In South India, the dharma-shAstra most-widely " followed " was written by Apastamba. Certainly, his dharma-shAstra and a sanskrit commentary upon it, believe in varnA by birth, and prAyashcitta for association with Shudras. Those who are interested can look at the following sutras -- 1.1.4, 1.1.6, 1.1.32, 2.9.9, 2.9.11. After talking about birth into a varNa, Apastamba also talks about birth by knowledge, brought about by a true guru (1.1.10 - 1.1.18). This is said to be superior to the " mere birth of the body from the parents " . The context makes it clear that this is sub-category of the earlier classification, and is not a contradiction. All that aside, it doesn't really matter. The world has changed. bhavadiiyaH, ajit On Tue, Aug 18, 2009 at 11:05 PM, Vijaya Kumara Lakshmi Narayana Rao Pingali<pvklnrao wrote: > Disassociating from lowercast people ... > If my understanding is correct, there is lowercast. There are 4 casts. > Brahmana - The knowledge seekers and knowledge preachers > Kshatriya - The protectors > Vaisya - Business > Sudra - The laborers > > None of these were talked as lowercast people. > > Untouchability is not advocated by our Rshis! > We ready commenteries written in English and make our judgements. > I am not sure of the original verses (and I am not that qualified to interpret them even if I knew them), but, Manu may have meant, a Brahmin who associates with other cast people (here association is not merely by touching or talking with them but doing what they do and behave like them) may not be fit to be called a brahmin. > > How ever, I see exceptions ever for this. Parasuram did behave like a kshatriya. How ever, we still consider to be a great brahmin. > > Best regards, > Vijay > , krishna Kanth <kritels >> Dear Sri G Balasubramanian Ji, >> >> I appreciate your efforts of posting these material, but i'm not able to understand the motive or the reason behind these postings. Is it your concern that today there are no Brahmins who live up to these stringent rules? >> >> Also, what is in your opinion about who is a Brahmin? is it someone who took Birth in a caste called " Brahmins " and is your concern is about them? >> >> I see some points to be good and some are non sense..i know that these are not the lines written buy you but still..and also some of practises were dispelled long back from the society consdiering them as social evils ..so are you trying to re-establish them ? (say for example: " If a Brahmana disassociates himself from lower caste people and associates only with higher caste people, he attains greatness. " ) >> >> No offense meant. >> >> Thanks >> KK > > > > --- > > || Om Shaantih Shaantih Shaantih || > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 19, 2009 Report Share Posted August 19, 2009 Sir, I have not completed my postings on this subject. I have just started quoting some texts from Smruties and Puranas. I am aware that the posting contains certain quotations which might look either out of context or not in line with the thinking of the intellectuals of to-day. Let us at least know how the Rishis of Bharathavarsha visualised as to how a true Brahman should conduct himself. G.Balasubramanian Ajit Krishnan <ajit.krishnan Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2009 5:22:44 AMRe: Re: DHARMA OF BRAHMIN---2 namaste,> None of these were talked as lowercast people.> Untouchability is not advocated by our Rshis!> We ready commenteries written in English and make our judgements."Sanskrit commentaries" are not a panacea free from these lines ofthinking. In South India, the dharma-shAstra most-widely "followed"was written by Apastamba. Certainly, his dharma-shAstra and a sanskritcommentary upon it, believe in varnA by birth, and prAyashcitta forassociation with Shudras. Those who are interested can look at thefollowing sutras -- 1.1.4, 1.1.6, 1.1.32, 2.9.9, 2.9.11. After talkingabout birth into a varNa, Apastamba also talks about birth byknowledge, brought about by a true guru (1.1.10 - 1.1.18). This issaid to be superior to the "mere birth of the body from the parents".The context makes it clear that this is sub-category of the earlierclassification, and is not a contradiction.All that aside, it doesn't really matter. The world has changed.bhavadiiyaH,ajitOn Tue, Aug 18, 2009 at 11:05 PM, Vijaya Kumara Lakshmi Narayana RaoPingali<pvklnrao > wrote:> Disassociating from lowercast people ...> If my understanding is correct, there is lowercast. There are 4 casts.> Brahmana - The knowledge seekers and knowledge preachers> Kshatriya - The protectors> Vaisya - Business> Sudra - The laborers>> None of these were talked as lowercast people.>> Untouchability is not advocated by our Rshis!> We ready commenteries written in English and make our judgements.> I am not sure of the original verses (and I am not that qualified to interpret them even if I knew them), but, Manu may have meant, a Brahmin who associates with other cast people (here association is not merely by touching or talking with them but doing what they do and behave like them) may not be fit to be called a brahmin.>> How ever, I see exceptions ever for this. Parasuram did behave like a kshatriya.. How ever, we still consider to be a great brahmin.>> Best regards,> Vijay> , krishna Kanth <kritels >>> Dear Sri G Balasubramanian Ji,>>>> I appreciate your efforts of posting these material, but i'm not able to understand the motive or the reason behind these postings. Is it your concern that today there are no Brahmins who live up to these stringent rules?>>>> Also, what is in your opinion about who is a Brahmin? is it someone who took Birth in a caste called "Brahmins" and is your concern is about them?>>>> I see some points to be good and some are non sense..i know that these are not the lines written buy you but still..and also some of practises were dispelled long back from the society consdiering them as social evils ..so are you trying to re-establish them ? (say for example: "If a Brahmana disassociates himself from lower caste people and associates only with higher caste people, he attains greatness.")>>>> No offense meant.>>>> Thanks>> KK>>>> ------------ --------- --------- ------>> || Om Shaantih Shaantih Shaantih ||> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 19, 2009 Report Share Posted August 19, 2009 In this regard pl. see my reply of date to the mail of Shri Ajit Krishnan on the same subject. There is neither any motive in starting this posting nor it is the intention to brand anybody as not fit to be called as Brahmin. That is a matter for each individual to judge and decide. I have just started the posting. Let one be patient and watch the postings. Let us not rush to any conclusions. G.Balasubramanian .. Vijaya Kumara Lakshmi Narayana Rao Pingali <pvklnrao Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2009 1:05:12 AM Re: DHARMA OF BRAHMIN---2 Disassociating from lowercast people ...If my understanding is correct, there is lowercast. There are 4 casts.Brahmana - The knowledge seekers and knowledge preachersKshatriya - The protectorsVaisya - BusinessSudra - The laborersNone of these were talked as lowercast people.Untouchability is not advocated by our Rshis!We ready commenteries written in English and make our judgements.I am not sure of the original verses (and I am not that qualified to interpret them even if I knew them), but, Manu may have meant, a Brahmin who associates with other cast people (here association is not merely by touching or talking with them but doing what they do and behave like them) may not be fit to be called a brahmin.How ever, I see exceptions ever for this. Parasuram did behave like a kshatriya. How ever, we still consider to be a great brahmin.Best regards,Vijay, krishna Kanth <kritels > > Dear Sri G Balasubramanian Ji,> > I appreciate your efforts of posting these material, but i'm not able to understand the motive or the reason behind these postings. Is it your concern that today there are no Brahmins who live up to these stringent rules?> > Also, what is in your opinion about who is a Brahmin? is it someone who took Birth in a caste called "Brahmins" and is your concern is about them? > > I see some points to be good and some are non sense..i know that these are not the lines written buy you but still..and also some of practises were dispelled long back from the society consdiering them as social evils ..so are you trying to re-establish them ? (say for example: "If a Brahmana disassociates himself from lower caste people and associates only with higher caste people, he attains greatness.") > > No offense meant.> > Thanks> KK Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 19, 2009 Report Share Posted August 19, 2009 Namaste, Could you please reduce the font-size and not make it Bold? Thanks Narayan , G Balasubramanian <gbsub wrote: > > In this regard pl. see my reply of date to the mail of Shri Ajit Krishnan on the same subject. There is neither any motive in starting this posting nor it is the intention to brand anybody as not fit to be called as Brahmin. That is a matter for each individual to judge and decide. I have just started the posting. Let one be patient and watch the postings. Let us not rush to any conclusions. > G.Balasubramanian > > . > > > ________________________________ > Vijaya Kumara Lakshmi Narayana Rao Pingali <pvklnrao > > Wednesday, August 19, 2009 1:05:12 AM > Re: DHARMA OF BRAHMIN---2 > > > Disassociating from lowercast people ... > If my understanding is correct, there is lowercast. There are 4 casts. > Brahmana - The knowledge seekers and knowledge preachers > Kshatriya - The protectors > Vaisya - Business > Sudra - The laborers > > None of these were talked as lowercast people. > > Untouchability is not advocated by our Rshis! > We ready commenteries written in English and make our judgements. > I am not sure of the original verses (and I am not that qualified to interpret them even if I knew them), but, Manu may have meant, a Brahmin who associates with other cast people (here association is not merely by touching or talking with them but doing what they do and behave like them) may not be fit to be called a brahmin. > > How ever, I see exceptions ever for this. Parasuram did behave like a kshatriya. How ever, we still consider to be a great brahmin. > > Best regards, > Vijay > , krishna Kanth <kritels@ > > > Dear Sri G Balasubramanian Ji, > > > > I appreciate your efforts of posting these material, but i'm not able to understand the motive or the reason behind these postings. Is it your concern that today there are no Brahmins who live up to these stringent rules? > > > > Also, what is in your opinion about who is a Brahmin? is it someone who took Birth in a caste called " Brahmins " and is your concern is about them? > > > > I see some points to be good and some are non sense..i know that these are not the lines written buy you but still..and also some of practises were dispelled long back from the society consdiering them as social evils ..so are you trying to re-establish them ? (say for example: " If a Brahmana disassociates himself from lower caste people and associates only with higher caste people, he attains greatness. " ) > > > > No offense meant. > > > > Thanks > > KK > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 20, 2009 Report Share Posted August 20, 2009 Namaste Krishna Kanth and others, > I see some points to be good and some are non sense..i know that > these are not the lines written buy you but still..and also some of > practises were dispelled long back from the society consdiering them as > social evils ..so are you trying to re-establish them ? (say for example: " If > a Brahmana disassociates himself from lower caste people and > associates only with higher caste people, he attains greatness. " ) On the contrary, there have been notable Brahmanas who have associated themselves with " lower caste people " , changed them into Brahmanas and arguably " attained greatness " . When Srila Prabhupada, for example, came to the West and taught Krishna Bhakti to all and sundry with compassion and without differentiating a drug addict hippie from a religious scholar, he sowed the seed for one of the greatest bhakti movements ever. I marvel when I look at how many Brahmanas of a very high order have been created as a result of his selfless and compassionate actions! Imagine a 69 year old man walking barefooted on the streets of a very cold foreign city filled with men of material pursuits and wondering how to start the mission of establishing devotion to Krishna there! Only a man whose heart is devoted to Krishna and his Guru can do it. Upasani maharaj, who lived a century ago, was a great scholar of Vedas and Upanishads. Shirdi Sai Baba once called him god himself in a human body and did ritual worship to him. He once went and lived in Harijanawada (colony of untouchables) with harijans (untouchables) and did things like sweeping the floors with them. He taught Vedic knowledge to harijans and women. Jnaneshwar Maharaj pleaded with the learned Brahmanas and keepers of dharma at Paithan to interpret dharma shastras with compassion and wisdom. When they failed and the Brahmanas of Alandi continued to consider his family (of three brothers and a sister, considered as incarnations of Trinity and Shakti) outcastes, he went and lived with lower caste people and taught his Marathi translation of Bhagavad Gita to them first. He was first adored by lower caste people and Brahmanas came to him later. Irrespective of caste, so many people in western India are influenced in their thinking and attitude by Jnaneshwar Maharaj today! His interpretation of Bhagavad Gita is arguably the best ever. Ramakrishna Paramahamsa was orthodox in the beginning. Though he worshipped Mother Kaali at the temple, he refused to eat Her prasad (food offered to Her and eaten by devotees later) as it was not cooked by a Braahmana! He left after the pooja without taking prasad and ate food cooked by himself. Such barriers were broken down later as he realized Self. He requested a rich landlord to give him a lower caste servant he had with him and turned that boy into a saint of a very high order. Despite being illiterate, Swami Adbhutananda (Latu Maharaj) had spiritual experiences and spiritual realization that many Brahmanas who spend their entire lives memorizing Vedas and Upanishads cannot even fathom. When the young man was meditating in the muggy Calcutta weather and was profusely sweating, there were times when Ramakrishna himself sat in front of him and fanned him! Such was his love for the young sadhaka from a lower caste. Ramakrishna also freely associated with fallen drunkards (e.g. Girish and Kalipad) and turned them into devoted men of god. He once took the " karmik power of attorney " from Girish and told him, " you are free to do whatever you want. Drink, pursue women and do whatever you want. Nothing will happen to you. Each bad karma performed by you will come to me. " Girish continued his debauched lifestyle for some more time, but reformed later. Whenever he did something bad, he could not stand the thought that Ramakrishna was to receive the karmik punishment. So he reformed. In later days, Swami Vivekananda held Girish in great respect and Girish touched many lives. Though some believe that Ramakrishna's throat cancer was because of taking on Girish's karmas, obviously he thought it was worth it. It had several purposes. * * * Dharma is not a constant. Dharma is the right thing one should do. The right action changes from person to person and from time to time. The right action is a function of one's cumulative background through many lives. It is possible to lay down some generic guidelines, but they can never be perfect. They need to be adopted with time. *** Dry rice grains cannot be eaten and digested, but they stay fresh longer without getting spoiled. Cooked rice is ready to eat and digest, but it becomes stale faster. *** Similarly, non-specific and unprocessed guidelines (that need to be processed in order to digest, i.e. put to use) remain applicable longer, while specific and processed guidelines (that can be put to use right away) become stale faster and lose their relevance. For example, a statement that god is everywhere and one should see happiness and sadness alike is timeless and never expires (like uncooked dry rice grains). But what do you do with it? How do you put it into practice? It is not specific. On the other hand, a specific guideline that one should do so and so ritual or not do so and so action is specific to a time and may not apply after some time. The bane of many religions that are based on one prophet and one text is that the text may become stale after some time. It may have been perfect for a previous time, but it may be imperfect now. Though we have texts in sanatana dharma (aka Hinduism) also that preach specific time-limited dos and donts, we have several texts that also spread the timeless teachings. So sometimes things may seem contradictory. Moreover, people translating things do not always get it right. Words are just words. A meaning is the imagery generated by those words in the mind of a reader, which is controlled by the mental conditioning of that reader. Luckily, sanatana dharma is not based on one prophet or one text and individual sadhana for individual Self-realization is emphasized. We have a steady stream of Self-realized saints and yogis, who interpret the words of shastras to us, through their own words and deeds! They reject the cooked grains that became stale (i.e. sometimes break orthodox rules), take uncooked grains from shastra (timeless principles), cook them with the heat of their spiritual understanding and serve the cooked food of spiritual instruction to people through their words and actions. Thus, I will say to people who have a fancy for shastras, " Read shastras, but do keep the above in mind and distinguish between uncooked grains and grains that were cooked long back and may have become stale by now. Try to supplement your understanding of shastras using the words and deeds of saints like Aadi Shankara, Jnaneshwar Maharaj, Chaitanya Mahaprabhu, Raghavendra Swami, Samartha Ramadas, Sai Baba, Ramakrishna Paramahamsa, Ramana Maharshi, Srila Prabhupada etc. Words of a realized person automatically become scripture. " * * * Caste is a touchy topic. Unfortunately, neither orthodox people nor politically correct rationalists get it completely correct. Caste is based on one's attitude and internal value system. To a braahmana, self-realization is the goal in life. To a kshatriya, power and authority over others is the goal in life. To a vaisya, money is the goal. To a shudra, basic physical comforts are the goal. However, one's birth and environment do influence one's value system. If one is born and grows up amid people who value strength, valor, vanquishing others and exerting power and authority over others, there is a good chance that one will also start valuing those qualities. In other words, if one is born and grows up amid kshatriyas, there is a good chance that one will become a kshatriya oneself! That cannot be denied. Thus, there is a good chance that one will end up with the value system of one's caste of birth. However, there can be exceptions. Based on other rinas from previous lives and life circumstances, one's attitude can change from that indicated by the family one is born into. After all, a king like Vishwamitra can become a great braahmana and brahma jnaani and a shudra like Vaalmiki can become a great braahmana and brahma jnaani. Thus, while the caste of birth is an important factor, it is not the only one. Caste mobility is possible based on other circumstances faced in one's life. * * * Also, if a braahmana (a person interested in spiritual progress and self-realization) associates with a shudra (a person interested in bodily comforts), there is a chance that the former is influenced by the latter and becomes interested in physical pleasures. Such an attachment to the body may take one off the course of self-realization. Thus, you can see where the quote from Manu Smriti is coming from. However, making that a rigid rule is debatable. Not every yogi who associates with a shudra develops attachment to body and its comforts. On the contrary, one may change the shudra and make him realize that body is temporary and not worth worrying so much about. Through the association, he may convert the shudra into a purified devotee of god. * * * Read things, but have a sense of balance in understanding various dictums of shastra. At the end, there are infinite people in this world and infinite viewpoints. We are not responsible for all their views. Make sure that your understanding of various things is clear and consistent. Make sure that you are making spiritual progress and slowly overcoming ego and attachment to the body. Make sure that your devotion to god is increasing and devotion to body and its comforts is decreasing. Make sure that your understanding of what is perennial vs what is temporary is increasing and your attachment to temporary things is decreasing. If all these things are happening, then you are on the right course and will sooner or later realize what is worth realizing. That is the most important thing and other things are secondary. Let other people do what they see as their job, as long as they do not interfere with what you see as your dharma. Best regards, Narasimha Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAstrologer.org/homam Do Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAstrologer.org/tarpana Spirituality: Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro.home.comcast.net Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAstrologer.org Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagannath.org ---- krishna Kanth <kritels wrote: > > Dear Sri G Balasubramanian Ji, > > I appreciate your efforts of posting these material, but i'm not able to understand the motive or the reason behind these postings. Is it your concern that today there are no Brahmins who live up to these stringent rules? > > Also, what is in your opinion about who is a Brahmin? is it someone who took Birth in a caste called " Brahmins " and is your concern is about them? > > I see some points to be good and some are non sense..i know that these are not the lines written buy you but still..and also some of practises were dispelled long back from the society consdiering them as social evils ..so are you trying to re-establish them ? (say for example: " If a Brahmana disassociates himself from lower caste people and associates only with higher caste people, he attains greatness. " ) > > No offense meant. > > Thanks > KK > > --- On Tue, 8/18/09, G Balasubramanian <gbsub wrote: > > G Balasubramanian <gbsub > DHARMA OF BRAHMIN---2 > brahmin_world, viprasamhitha (AT) googl (DOT) com, asthikasamaj, USBrahmins , -Vedic-Dharma , > Tuesday, August 18, 2009, 8:27 AM > > Friends, > We saw in posting no.1 as to what Manu Smruti says about Brahmins living in a land ruled by Sudras. The same smruti also says that such Brahmanas become degraded by associating with fallen people(patita-samsargaat) at their place of work. That Smruti declares, " If a Brahmana disassociates himself from lower caste people and associates only with higher caste people, he attains greatness. If he does the opposite, he becomes a sudra(Manu4. 245). Knowledgeable people hold the view that many of the professions like software engineering , technological jobs,a Govt. servant(raja sevaka), a teacher working in a school, a doctor etc. etc. --- all of these professions fall under the category of sudra`s domain. They hold that a Brahmin should not take employment from anyone (especially from sudras). In this regard the Kurma Purana says--- > " Those Brahmanas who make a living from protecting cows, engage in trade, become artists, take the occupation of servants, and lend money on interest are no better than sudras (......... vipran sudra-vad acharet). " > > " O Brahmanas, one who does not study the Vedas (anadhitya sruti dvijah) but carefully endeavours for other pursuits is certainly foolish( sa sammudo) and ostracized from vedic life( veda-bahyo dvijatibhih). Brahmanas should not speak to such a person " (na sambhasyo). > > But, Srimad Bhagavatam speaks of a permissible exception and mentions the circumstances in which a Brahmana may pursue another occupation. Verse 47 of chapter 17 of Canto 11 says that if a Brahmana can not support himself through his regular duties and is suffering,he may adopt the occupation of a merchant and overcome his destitute condition by buying and selling material things. If he continues to suffer extreme poverty even as a merchant, then he may adopt the occupation of a kshatriya. But under no circumstances become like a dog, accepting an ordinary master. Srimad Bhagavatam (12.3.35) also states that this is one of the symptoms of Kaliyuga. It says, " Businessmen will engage in petty commerce and earn their money by cheating. Even when there is no emergency, people will consider any degraded occupation quite acceptable. > > The Dharma Sastras declare that if one takes birth in a Brahmana family but does not cultivate scriptural knowledge, he can not be accepted as a Brahmana. Visnu Dharma Sastra 93.7 says that religious- minded people should never give even a drop of water to the hypocritical son of a Brahmana, who is ignorant of the Vedas. Manu Smriti 2.157 says that a brahmana who does not study the Vedas is similar to a wooden elephant or a deer made of skin, i.e., an elephant or deer only in name but does not function effectively as such. Moreover, the same smriti says that until a Brahmana qualifies himself in the Vedas, he is on the same level as a sudra(2.172 Sudrena hi samah tavad yavad vede na jayate). In Mahabharata, Santi Parva 189.7 it has been stated that Brahmanas who lead a life of violence, lies and greed, who are impure and indulge in all kinds of karmic activity in order to maintain their > lives(sarvakarmopajivinah ) are degraded to the status of sudras(dvija sudratam gatah). Such a person , who eats anything and everything without discrimination, who is attached to worldly things, who will accept any occupation just to make money(sarvo karma karo asuchih), who has given up Vedic Dharma (tyakta vedastvanarchah) and proper behaviour is called a sudra (sa vai sudra iti smrutah). Let each one of our community weigh our respective merit and conclude as to where we are as Brahmins. > (to be continued) > G.Balasubramanian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 21, 2009 Report Share Posted August 21, 2009 Narasimha Garu!!! I can not but *Marvel* at this message. I am astonished with your skill of putting down your refined ideas in to words. vow! what a clarity boss... please accept my Dandavat Pranaams over this message. One of the most complex issues, you have made it so simple and digestable like *deliciously cooked Basamati Rice*. was it a spontaneous message? in few minutes you have stear-clear many nagging confusions. i am really fortunate to have you as my Guru. (not sure though about your fortune;). party time for me! i am really happy. as they say in Mumbaiya style..ekdam Zakkaaas! yours, Utpal , Narasimha PVR Rao <pvr wrote: > > Namaste Krishna Kanth and others, > > > I see some points to be good and some are non sense..i know that > > these are not the lines written buy you but still..and also some of > > practises were dispelled long back from the society consdiering them as > > social evils ..so are you trying to re-establish them ? (say for example: " If > > a Brahmana disassociates himself from lower caste people and > > associates only with higher caste people, he attains greatness. " ) > > On the contrary, there have been notable Brahmanas who have associated themselves with " lower caste people " , changed them into Brahmanas and arguably " attained greatness " . > > When Srila Prabhupada, for example, came to the West and taught Krishna Bhakti to all and sundry with compassion and without differentiating a drug addict hippie from a religious scholar, he sowed the seed for one of the greatest bhakti movements ever. I marvel when I look at how many Brahmanas of a very high order have been created as a result of his selfless and compassionate actions! Imagine a 69 year old man walking barefooted on the streets of a very cold foreign city filled with men of material pursuits and wondering how to start the mission of establishing devotion to Krishna there! Only a man whose heart is devoted to Krishna and his Guru can do it. > > Upasani maharaj, who lived a century ago, was a great scholar of Vedas and Upanishads. Shirdi Sai Baba once called him god himself in a human body and did ritual worship to him. He once went and lived in Harijanawada (colony of untouchables) with harijans (untouchables) and did things like sweeping the floors with them. He taught Vedic knowledge to harijans and women. > > Jnaneshwar Maharaj pleaded with the learned Brahmanas and keepers of dharma at Paithan to interpret dharma shastras with compassion and wisdom. When they failed and the Brahmanas of Alandi continued to consider his family (of three brothers and a sister, considered as incarnations of Trinity and Shakti) outcastes, he went and lived with lower caste people and taught his Marathi translation of Bhagavad Gita to them first. He was first adored by lower caste people and Brahmanas came to him later. Irrespective of caste, so many people in western India are influenced in their thinking and attitude by Jnaneshwar Maharaj today! His interpretation of Bhagavad Gita is arguably the best ever. > > Ramakrishna Paramahamsa was orthodox in the beginning. Though he worshipped Mother Kaali at the temple, he refused to eat Her prasad (food offered to Her and eaten by devotees later) as it was not cooked by a Braahmana! He left after the pooja without taking prasad and ate food cooked by himself. Such barriers were broken down later as he realized Self. He requested a rich landlord to give him a lower caste servant he had with him and turned that boy into a saint of a very high order. Despite being illiterate, Swami Adbhutananda (Latu Maharaj) had spiritual experiences and spiritual realization that many Brahmanas who spend their entire lives memorizing Vedas and Upanishads cannot even fathom. When the young man was meditating in the muggy Calcutta weather and was profusely sweating, there were times when Ramakrishna himself sat in front of him and fanned him! Such was his love for the young sadhaka from a lower caste. Ramakrishna also freely associated with fallen drunkards (e.g. Girish and Kalipad) and turned them into devoted men of god. He once took the " karmik power of attorney " from Girish and told him, " you are free to do whatever you want. Drink, pursue women and do whatever you want. Nothing will happen to you. Each bad karma performed by you will come to me. " Girish continued his debauched lifestyle for some more time, but reformed later. Whenever he did something bad, he could not stand the thought that Ramakrishna was to receive the karmik punishment. So he reformed. In later days, Swami Vivekananda held Girish in great respect and Girish touched many lives. Though some believe that Ramakrishna's throat cancer was because of taking on Girish's karmas, obviously he thought it was worth it. It had several purposes. > > * * * > > Dharma is not a constant. > > Dharma is the right thing one should do. The right action changes from person to person and from time to time. The right action is a function of one's cumulative background through many lives. It is possible to lay down some generic guidelines, but they can never be perfect. They need to be adopted with time. > > *** Dry rice grains cannot be eaten and digested, but they stay fresh longer without getting spoiled. Cooked rice is ready to eat and digest, but it becomes stale faster. *** > > Similarly, non-specific and unprocessed guidelines (that need to be processed in order to digest, i.e. put to use) remain applicable longer, while specific and processed guidelines (that can be put to use right away) become stale faster and lose their relevance. For example, a statement that god is everywhere and one should see happiness and sadness alike is timeless and never expires (like uncooked dry rice grains). But what do you do with it? How do you put it into practice? It is not specific. On the other hand, a specific guideline that one should do so and so ritual or not do so and so action is specific to a time and may not apply after some time. > > The bane of many religions that are based on one prophet and one text is that the text may become stale after some time. It may have been perfect for a previous time, but it may be imperfect now. > > Though we have texts in sanatana dharma (aka Hinduism) also that preach specific time-limited dos and donts, we have several texts that also spread the timeless teachings. So sometimes things may seem contradictory. Moreover, people translating things do not always get it right. Words are just words. A meaning is the imagery generated by those words in the mind of a reader, which is controlled by the mental conditioning of that reader. > > Luckily, sanatana dharma is not based on one prophet or one text and individual sadhana for individual Self-realization is emphasized. We have a steady stream of Self-realized saints and yogis, who interpret the words of shastras to us, through their own words and deeds! > > They reject the cooked grains that became stale (i.e. sometimes break orthodox rules), take uncooked grains from shastra (timeless principles), cook them with the heat of their spiritual understanding and serve the cooked food of spiritual instruction to people through their words and actions. > > Thus, I will say to people who have a fancy for shastras, " Read shastras, but do keep the above in mind and distinguish between uncooked grains and grains that were cooked long back and may have become stale by now. Try to supplement your understanding of shastras using the words and deeds of saints like Aadi Shankara, Jnaneshwar Maharaj, Chaitanya Mahaprabhu, Raghavendra Swami, Samartha Ramadas, Sai Baba, Ramakrishna Paramahamsa, Ramana Maharshi, Srila Prabhupada etc. Words of a realized person automatically become scripture. " > > * * * > > Caste is a touchy topic. Unfortunately, neither orthodox people nor politically correct rationalists get it completely correct. > > Caste is based on one's attitude and internal value system. To a braahmana, self-realization is the goal in life. To a kshatriya, power and authority over others is the goal in life. To a vaisya, money is the goal. To a shudra, basic physical comforts are the goal. > > However, one's birth and environment do influence one's value system. > > If one is born and grows up amid people who value strength, valor, vanquishing others and exerting power and authority over others, there is a good chance that one will also start valuing those qualities. In other words, if one is born and grows up amid kshatriyas, there is a good chance that one will become a kshatriya oneself! > > That cannot be denied. Thus, there is a good chance that one will end up with the value system of one's caste of birth. > > However, there can be exceptions. Based on other rinas from previous lives and life circumstances, one's attitude can change from that indicated by the family one is born into. After all, a king like Vishwamitra can become a great braahmana and brahma jnaani and a shudra like Vaalmiki can become a great braahmana and brahma jnaani. Thus, while the caste of birth is an important factor, it is not the only one. Caste mobility is possible based on other circumstances faced in one's life. > > * * * > > Also, if a braahmana (a person interested in spiritual progress and self-realization) associates with a shudra (a person interested in bodily comforts), there is a chance that the former is influenced by the latter and becomes interested in physical pleasures. Such an attachment to the body may take one off the course of self-realization. Thus, you can see where the quote from Manu Smriti is coming from. > > However, making that a rigid rule is debatable. Not every yogi who associates with a shudra develops attachment to body and its comforts. On the contrary, one may change the shudra and make him realize that body is temporary and not worth worrying so much about. Through the association, he may convert the shudra into a purified devotee of god. > > * * * > > Read things, but have a sense of balance in understanding various dictums of shastra. At the end, there are infinite people in this world and infinite viewpoints. We are not responsible for all their views. Make sure that your understanding of various things is clear and consistent. > > Make sure that you are making spiritual progress and slowly overcoming ego and attachment to the body. Make sure that your devotion to god is increasing and devotion to body and its comforts is decreasing. Make sure that your understanding of what is perennial vs what is temporary is increasing and your attachment to temporary things is decreasing. If all these things are happening, then you are on the right course and will sooner or later realize what is worth realizing. > > That is the most important thing and other things are secondary. Let other people do what they see as their job, as long as they do not interfere with what you see as your dharma. > > Best regards, > Narasimha > > Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAstrologer.org/homam > Do Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAstrologer.org/tarpana > Spirituality: > Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro.home.comcast.net > Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAstrologer.org > Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagannath.org > > > ---- krishna Kanth <kritels wrote: > > > > Dear Sri G Balasubramanian Ji, > > > > I appreciate your efforts of posting these material, but i'm not able to understand the motive or the reason behind these postings. Is it your concern that today there are no Brahmins who live up to these stringent rules? > > > > Also, what is in your opinion about who is a Brahmin? is it someone who took Birth in a caste called " Brahmins " and is your concern is about them? > > > > I see some points to be good and some are non sense..i know that these are not the lines written buy you but still..and also some of practises were dispelled long back from the society consdiering them as social evils ..so are you trying to re-establish them ? (say for example: " If a Brahmana disassociates himself from lower caste people and associates only with higher caste people, he attains greatness. " ) > > > > No offense meant. > > > > Thanks > > KK > > > > --- On Tue, 8/18/09, G Balasubramanian <gbsub wrote: > > > > G Balasubramanian <gbsub > > DHARMA OF BRAHMIN---2 > > brahmin_world, viprasamhitha (AT) googl (DOT) com, asthikasamaj, USBrahmins , -Vedic-Dharma , > > Tuesday, August 18, 2009, 8:27 AM > > > > Friends, > > We saw in posting no.1 as to what Manu Smruti says about Brahmins living in a land ruled by Sudras. The same smruti also says that such Brahmanas become degraded by associating with fallen people(patita-samsargaat) at their place of work. That Smruti declares, " If a Brahmana disassociates himself from lower caste people and associates only with higher caste people, he attains greatness. If he does the opposite, he becomes a sudra(Manu4. 245). Knowledgeable people hold the view that many of the professions like software engineering , technological jobs,a Govt. servant(raja sevaka), a teacher working in a school, a doctor etc. etc. --- all of these professions fall under the category of sudra`s domain. They hold that a Brahmin should not take employment from anyone (especially from sudras). In this regard the Kurma Purana says--- > > " Those Brahmanas who make a living from protecting cows, engage in trade, become artists, take the occupation of servants, and lend money on interest are no better than sudras (......... vipran sudra-vad acharet). " > > > > " O Brahmanas, one who does not study the Vedas (anadhitya sruti dvijah) but carefully endeavours for other pursuits is certainly foolish( sa sammudo) and ostracized from vedic life( veda-bahyo dvijatibhih). Brahmanas should not speak to such a person " (na sambhasyo). > > > > But, Srimad Bhagavatam speaks of a permissible exception and mentions the circumstances in which a Brahmana may pursue another occupation. Verse 47 of chapter 17 of Canto 11 says that if a Brahmana can not support himself through his regular duties and is suffering,he may adopt the occupation of a merchant and overcome his destitute condition by buying and selling material things. If he continues to suffer extreme poverty even as a merchant, then he may adopt the occupation of a kshatriya. But under no circumstances become like a dog, accepting an ordinary master. Srimad Bhagavatam (12.3.35) also states that this is one of the symptoms of Kaliyuga. It says, " Businessmen will engage in petty commerce and earn their money by cheating. Even when there is no emergency, people will consider any degraded occupation quite acceptable. > > > > The Dharma Sastras declare that if one takes birth in a Brahmana family but does not cultivate scriptural knowledge, he can not be accepted as a Brahmana. Visnu Dharma Sastra 93.7 says that religious- minded people should never give even a drop of water to the hypocritical son of a Brahmana, who is ignorant of the Vedas. Manu Smriti 2.157 says that a brahmana who does not study the Vedas is similar to a wooden elephant or a deer made of skin, i.e., an elephant or deer only in name but does not function effectively as such. Moreover, the same smriti says that until a Brahmana qualifies himself in the Vedas, he is on the same level as a sudra(2.172 Sudrena hi samah tavad yavad vede na jayate). In Mahabharata, Santi Parva 189.7 it has been stated that Brahmanas who lead a life of violence, lies and greed, who are impure and indulge in all kinds of karmic activity in order to maintain their > > lives(sarvakarmopajivinah ) are degraded to the status of sudras(dvija sudratam gatah). Such a person , who eats anything and everything without discrimination, who is attached to worldly things, who will accept any occupation just to make money(sarvo karma karo asuchih), who has given up Vedic Dharma (tyakta vedastvanarchah) and proper behaviour is called a sudra (sa vai sudra iti smrutah). Let each one of our community weigh our respective merit and conclude as to where we are as Brahmins. > > (to be continued) > > G.Balasubramanian > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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