Guest guest Posted August 7, 2009 Report Share Posted August 7, 2009 Dear All, What is the difference between self realization and God realization? We often say Buddha or Sri Ramanamaharishi or Sri Adi Shankaracharya were self realized masters, whereas a Ramakrishna Paramhamsa was a God realized master. What is the difference between these two states of spiritual realization? I presume a person who is an atheist or agnost can also attain self realization (theoritically at least), but maybe not God realization. -Regards Rajarshi See the Web's breaking stories, chosen by people like you. Check out Buzz. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 7, 2009 Report Share Posted August 7, 2009 Namaste Rajarshi, i am compel to write on your message!. my free wheeling thoughts are hereunder. Let us take case of Ramanmaharshi in nutshell. He chose the path to find out " Who am i? " ( " Naan Yaar? " ). in other words -self realisation. he finally realised the self and understood personally that there is nothing but self. it only is. one without second which Adi Shanka and many others have equivivocally stated earlier. Now one important point to note in case of Raman Maharashi which can easily go unnoticed by some. I've read that one person came to Ramana's Ashram and stayed with him for some time in the hope that he will be able to see live form of his chosen deity which was Bhagavan Shree Ramchandra. It is mentioned that when he was taking leave of Maharshi, he finally saw Shri Rama in Maharshi and was overjoyed and satisfied. (I've given this episode out of my memory so please excuse me if some details are not exactly correct) If we scrutinise this incident with more intrest than it suggests us few very important things. * Though Raman Maharashi is generally regarded as Self Realised saint and chiefly taught self realisation to people, he was not UNAWARE of " Forms of GODS " in the plane of Duality. or else he would not have satisfied the devotee by showing him the form of Sri Rama. Who knows?....during the mind-blowing Saadhana which Maharshi did for many years for Self realisation, he would have by all chances, also realised many aspect of the self such as Forms of Gods and goddesses, and many other aspect which we even haven't heard of. now can we say hear that Raman was only a Self Realised and NOT God Realised. *** If we look at Thakur's life chronolgy, He seems to have first Realised 'Kali' in her Human form. we can say that he realised God (If we consider form of Mother Kali as God). same way he realised Gods in different forms such as Rama and Krishna. Just turn our attention to his Advait Sadhana under guidance of Totapuri ji and we know that he was established in Brahman aspect in just 3 days and remain in that state for almost 6 months afterwords. so he experienced the 'Ekmevaadwitiya'. so now can we say that he was God Realised and not self realised?. actually in my thinking it is not correct to imagine for Spiritual giants like Shankara, Budhha, Ramana, Thakur, Jesus, Gnyaaneshwar etc..knew only one aspect of supreme. i think they knew many aspects which are poular amongst us and may be some more also which are yet not known to us. for them These two words (GOD & SELF) may not make any sense at all. But for ordinary mortals like me, i think that there is some difference still and the difference may remain. what i mean here is suppose i am Shiva Bhakta or Mahalakshmi Bhakta and i do intense saadhana to meet them, see them, talk to them in person and i may eventually realised them with their popular forms BUT if i, for any reasons stopped there then for me Self Realsiations will still be far away. like Thakur said do not stop and keep going forward and you will find one after the other more precious wealth. may be END is self realisation or merging in to Brahman. I don't want get dragged in to Dwait, Adwait and vishistaadvait debate. My Thakur used gto say Kali-Krishna and Brahman are the same ! Warm Regards, Utpal , rajarshi nandy <rajarshi14 wrote: > > Dear All, > > What is the difference between self realization and God realization? We often say Buddha or Sri Ramanamaharishi or Sri Adi Shankaracharya were self realized masters, whereas a Ramakrishna Paramhamsa was a God realized master. What is the difference between these two states of spiritual realization? > > > I presume a person who is an atheist or agnost can also attain self realization (theoritically at least), but maybe not God realization. > > -Regards > Rajarshi > > > > > > See the Web & #39;s breaking stories, chosen by people like you. Check out Buzz. http://in.buzz./ > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 7, 2009 Report Share Posted August 7, 2009 namaste, See if you can get a copy of the book 'Yoga, enlightenment, and perfection' of Abhinava Vidyatheerth Mahaswamigal. This is a record of the spiritual experiences of a former pontiff of the Sringeri mutt. It provides a rare glimpse into the mind of a such a great man. After reading this, I realized just how special these 'God-men' are . . . and just how far I have to go. bhavadiiyaH, ajit On Thu, Aug 6, 2009 at 10:59 PM, rajarshi nandy<rajarshi14 wrote: > > > Dear All, > > What is the difference between self realization and God realization? We > often say Buddha or Sri Ramanamaharishi or Sri Adi Shankaracharya were self > realized masters, whereas a Ramakrishna Paramhamsa was a God realized > master. What is the difference between these two states of spiritual > realization? > > > I presume a person who is an atheist or agnost can also attain self > realization (theoritically at least), but maybe not God realization. > > -Regards > Rajarshi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 7, 2009 Report Share Posted August 7, 2009 Ajit, Always refreshing to read your post...this one I could not resist replying to! I must have read and re-read the book mentioned by you many times. And I visited Sringeri in June. Now I am reading two books on Sri Abhinava Vidyateertha Mahaswamigal's Guru, Sri Chandrasekhara Bharati Mahaswamigal. Denied the physical presence of his predecessor, what this Mahaswamigal achieved in his lifetime fairly stretches the imagination! Anyhow when you refer to this book for the current discussion, are you alluding to the difference between savikalpa and nirvikalpa samadhi? best regards Hari On Fri, Aug 7, 2009 at 6:03 PM, Ajit Krishnan <ajit.krishnan wrote: namaste,See if you can get a copy of the book 'Yoga, enlightenment, and perfection'of Abhinava Vidyatheerth Mahaswamigal. This is a record of the spiritualexperiences of a former pontiff of the Sringeri mutt. It provides a rare glimpse into the mind of a such a great man. After reading this,I realized just how special these 'God-men' are . . . and just how farI have to go.bhavadiiyaH,ajit .. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 7, 2009 Report Share Posted August 7, 2009 namaste, Especially when it comes to Advaitins, there is a prevaling sentiment that they are interested in gyAna at the expense of bhakti. For example, in this thread, between the words " God-realized " and " self-realized " , Shankaracharya was labelled as " self-realized " . We often have such theoretical discussions without understanding the terms involved (I am more guilty of this than most). For me, this book helped clarify some of these terms and concepts, from a learned jagadguru who had directly experienced. Based on my reading, the path to spirituality requires destroying the ego. I don't think that it is possible for me to reduce my ego without both bhakti to Ishwara and vicAra as part of the picture. I have to surrender to a higher power in order to reduce my ego. But then my ego shows up elsewhere and becomes happy that I am a good bhakta that is pleasing Ishwara. Then I have to realize that Ishwara isn't pleased by my action or inaction. And then, without a higher power in the picture, the original ego resurfaces. Hence, as far as the process is concerned, I believe that bhakti and vicAra go hand in hand. Using an illustration from the Yoga-Vasishtha, it is like the two wings of a bird that wants to fly. I understood the question as asking about self-realization (through vicAra) and God-realization (through bhakti). From my perspective, the path and desired result are really the same, regardless of how they are labelled. Looking back, reading this book helped form my opinion, and I thought that others might find the book to be equally revealing. bhavadiiyaH, ajit On Fri, Aug 7, 2009 at 5:48 AM, Jyotisa Shisya<achyutagaddi wrote: > > > Ajit, > > Always refreshing to read your post...this one I could not resist replying > to! I must have read and re-read the book mentioned by you many times. And I > visited Sringeri in June. Now I am reading two books on Sri Abhinava > Vidyateertha Mahaswamigal's Guru, Sri Chandrasekhara Bharati Mahaswamigal. > Denied the physical presence of his predecessor, what this Mahaswamigal > achieved in his lifetime fairly stretches the imagination! > > Anyhow when you refer to this book for the current discussion, are you > alluding to the difference between savikalpa and nirvikalpa samadhi? > > best regards > Hari > > On Fri, Aug 7, 2009 at 6:03 PM, Ajit Krishnan <ajit.krishnan > wrote: >> >> >> >> namaste, >> >> See if you can get a copy of the book 'Yoga, enlightenment, and >> perfection' >> of Abhinava Vidyatheerth Mahaswamigal. This is a record of the spiritual >> experiences of a former pontiff of the Sringeri mutt. It provides a rare >> glimpse into the mind of a such a great man. After reading this, >> I realized just how special these 'God-men' are . . . and just how far >> I have to go. >> >> bhavadiiyaH, >> >> ajit Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 7, 2009 Report Share Posted August 7, 2009 Dear Rajarshi, Ajit has replied nicely, but I want to add my 2 cents. Self-realization and god-realization are not " TWO states of spiritual realization " . They are the same. However, *normally* people who think they are pursuing the two ends tend to walk two different paths. But, if they reach the absolute end, they will be in the same state. I will elaborate. * * * Some Adwaitins who pursue self-realization emphasize on jnaana (correct knowledge). If one defines Self as the uncreated and indestructible essence, one can look at one thing after another (e.g. body, senses, buddhi etc) and realize " that is not Self, this is not Self " etc. As one keeps eliminating one thing after another through discrimination and detaches the mind from whatever has been found to be not Self, finally one's mind is absorbed in the Self, which is without any attributes and which is not created or destroyed. It is very difficult in this age to realize Self in this manner. Realizing through discrimination that so and so thing is not Self, as it is created and destructible, is not too difficult, but to disengage the mind from all such things with discipline is not at all easy. Pure jnaana maarga is unsuitable for most people today. Moreover, Vasishtha says in " Yoga Vaasishtham " that knowledge and action are the two wings with which the bird of soul flies. One following jnaana maarga needs to engage in correct actions to realize Self. Followers of jnaana maarga who are slaves of inactions may never realize Self. Actions without correct knowledge bind one, but actions performed with correct knowledge (i.e. without a sense of doership) free one from one previous karma after another and prepare one for Self-realization. * * * Those who seek god-realization normally emphasize on bhakti (devotion). If one defines God as the all-pervading one who is uncreated and indestructible, one can look at everything as god. As one starts seeing god in everything, one overcomes one's attractions and repulsions to various things and achieves an equanimous state of mind. When such an equanimous mind stops seeing all the people and things, and gets established in the uncreated, indestructible and all-pervading god present in all, we say that one is absorbed in God. One yogi's mind may be absorbed in a god with various specific attributes and there may be a notion in his mind of various people and things in the universe apart from that god. That is a spiritual realization too, but not the highest. When one realizes the god one is devoted to as the Supreme Cosmic Being who is not colored by any specific attributes and yet has all possible attributes and when one's mind is devoid of any other notions or objects and filled with *just* that Supreme Cosmic Being, that is the highest god-realization. This is not really different from Self-realization of an jnaani. In both, mind is absorbed in something infinite, uncreated, indestructible and uncolored by any specific attributes. * * * If you have " Yoga Vaasishtham " (Swami Venkatesananda's translation titled " Vasishtha's Yoga " is very good), read the story of Vitahavya (I think). Maharshi Vasishtha describes how his mind rose above one thing after another and how he was finally established in the Turiya state. Vasishtha says that the state beyond attributes and qualifications that he was established in is variously known as Self or Aatman or Brahman or Iswara or Supreme Cosmic Being by various groups of people. He equates all the terms! * * * One can mix jnaana yoga, bhakti yoga, karma yoga and raaja yoga and carve one's own niche. Whatever we do, we have to rise above the limited ego. Mind attaches itself to a body and name and thinks " this is I and the most important " . The true " I " (which is uncreated and indestructible, unlike the body and name) is realized only when the fake " I " is *completely* given up. It does not happen in an instant. Rome is not built in a day! A good old-fashioned guru can help one progress faster by tearing down one's ego with strenuous testing, but that does not happen to all. Moreover, all may not be able to withstand it. So, progress at your own speed, but do avail all options. Contemplation and discriminination (from jnaana yoga) can help in overcoming ego. Devotion, surrender and humility (from bhakti yoga) can help in overcoming ego. Sincerity, selflessness, thinking of others more than oneself and freedom from expectation of results (from karma yoga) can help in overcoming ego. Fearlessness (even of death) and equanimous vision (from raaja yoga) can also help in overcoming ego, even though it is a risky approach. Carve your own path, with help from your guru, but be sincere in following your path. No effort is wasted. It will give results sooner or later. Best regards, Narasimha Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAstrologer.org/homam Do Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAstrologer.org/tarpana Spirituality: Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro.home.comcast.net Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAstrologer.org Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagannath.org ---- rajarshi nandy <rajarshi14 wrote: > Dear All, > > What is the difference between self realization and God realization? We often say Buddha or Sri Ramanamaharishi or Sri Adi Shankaracharya were self realized masters, whereas a Ramakrishna Paramhamsa was a God realized master. What is the difference between these two states of spiritual realization? > > I presume a person who is an atheist or agnost can also attain self realization (theoritically at least), but maybe not God realization. > > -Regards > Rajarshi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 8, 2009 Report Share Posted August 8, 2009 Namaste Ajit ji, >Looking back, >reading this book helped form my opinion, and I thought that others >might find the book to be equally revealing. i sincerely wish to know if this perticular book has something new to offer. i've gone through some books such as Vivekchudamani, Yogavaasishtha, Autobiography of a Yogi, Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna, God loves fun, bang on the door and few other such spiritual and philosophical works. Although i've mentioned earlier that the intrest of reading is at all time low in me, i would like to read the book as you have strongly recommended it. Best Regards, Utpal , Ajit Krishnan <ajit.krishnan wrote: > > namaste, > > Especially when it comes to Advaitins, there is a prevaling sentiment that they > are interested in gyAna at the expense of bhakti. For example, in this thread, > between the words " God-realized " and " self-realized " , Shankaracharya was > labelled as " self-realized " . We often have such theoretical discussions without > understanding the terms involved (I am more guilty of this than most). For me, > this book helped clarify some of these terms and concepts, from a learned > jagadguru who had directly experienced. > > Based on my reading, the path to spirituality requires destroying the > ego. I don't > think that it is possible for me to reduce my ego without both bhakti > to Ishwara > and vicAra as part of the picture. > > I have to surrender to a higher power in order to reduce my ego. But then my ego > shows up elsewhere and becomes happy that I am a good bhakta that is pleasing > Ishwara. Then I have to realize that Ishwara isn't pleased by my > action or inaction. > And then, without a higher power in the picture, the original ego > resurfaces. Hence, > as far as the process is concerned, I believe that bhakti and vicAra > go hand in hand. > Using an illustration from the Yoga-Vasishtha, it is like the two > wings of a bird that > wants to fly. > > I understood the question as asking about self-realization (through vicAra) and > God-realization (through bhakti). From my perspective, the path and desired > result are really the same, regardless of how they are labelled. Looking back, > reading this book helped form my opinion, and I thought that others might find > the book to be equally revealing. > > bhavadiiyaH, > > ajit > > On Fri, Aug 7, 2009 at 5:48 AM, Jyotisa Shisya<achyutagaddi wrote: > > > > > > Ajit, > > > > Always refreshing to read your post...this one I could not resist replying > > to! I must have read and re-read the book mentioned by you many times. And I > > visited Sringeri in June. Now I am reading two books on Sri Abhinava > > Vidyateertha Mahaswamigal's Guru, Sri Chandrasekhara Bharati Mahaswamigal. > > Denied the physical presence of?his predecessor, what this Mahaswamigal > > achieved in his lifetime fairly stretches the imagination! > > > > Anyhow when you refer to this book for the current discussion, are you > > alluding to the difference between savikalpa and nirvikalpa samadhi? > > > > best regards > > Hari > > > > On Fri, Aug 7, 2009 at 6:03 PM, Ajit Krishnan <ajit.krishnan > > wrote: > >> > >> > >> > >> namaste, > >> > >> See if you can get a copy of the book 'Yoga, enlightenment, and > >> perfection' > >> of Abhinava Vidyatheerth Mahaswamigal. This is a record of the spiritual > >> experiences of a former pontiff of the Sringeri mutt. It provides a rare > >> glimpse into the mind of a such a great man. After reading this, > >> I realized just how special these 'God-men' are . . . and just how far > >> I have to go. > >> > >> bhavadiiyaH, > >> > >> ajit > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.