Freewill.

[Guest guest]

Namaste Narasimhaji

 

No doubt a wonderful and inspiring mail for all of us, however, I could not help it that an inevitable question popped up in my mind. One of the oft discussed and eternal questions.

 

If events have already been created like in a movie and later as time unfolds, they happen in our plane of existence, then all talk of freewill must be humbug? Like a placebo that makes us "happy" but in reality does not exist!

 

 

I am not questioning that what you wrote in the mail about events having already happened, because same has been said by other great spiritual people in the world.

 

But my question is because I cannot reconcile this with a freewill. Both cannot be correct. It is either this or that.

 

Theoritically speaking, say tomorrow suddenly majority of the world reforms itself, does a self correction exercise and brings in peace, harmony etc etc, then why should the Kalki Avatar still incarnate? But then if the Kalki Avatar has to incarnate - as our texts say - then such a self correcting option is already negated out.

 

Well, theoritically, in a very large viewpoint no one has any choice in the sense that finally everyone will end up merging with the divine.

 

So I guess freewill is not really as free as we love to think.

 

-Regards

Rajarshi

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The upsurge (of consciousness) is Bhairava - Shiva Sutra--- On Tue, 30/6/09, Narasimha PVR Rao <pvr wrote:

Narasimha PVR Rao <pvr Miscellany: Future, bestest homam, purity and overcoming ego Date: Tuesday, 30 June, 2009, 6:01 AM

 

 

Namaste,I mentioned an episode of a small boy who did a very short Chandi homam and saw Vishnu's ten incarnations above the fire in the following mail:http://groups. / group/vedic- wisdom/message/ 761This boy was born and brought up in US and is not proficient in his knowledge of Hinduism. He did not know much about some of the ten incarnations. He described what he saw and I told him who was who and a little about them. One of the forms he saw was a radiant man with white clothes riding a white horse on a dusty road. I told him he was Kalki and he hadn't come yet.* * *This boy is usually playful, easy-going and smiling. But, when I was with him one morning, I saw him lost in some serious thought. This was abou a week after the episode mentioned in the above mail.I asked what he was thinking. He

said, "it is not that the future that is to come has not already happened. It has already happened in reality, but it will happen later when the time comes. You know what I mean?" I guessed what he was getting at, but pretended not to know. I said, "no. What do you mean?"He said, "I don't know how to say what I am thinking." This boy is not known to be overly intelligent or articulate. His main characteristic is that he is usually cheerful, playful, sweet, kind, contented and relaxed. However, he was onto something today. But he could not express himself.I helped him, "do you mean to say that future has already happened at some level, but will reveal itself to people later? Kind of like a movie. A movie may have been shot and become ready in a studio. Some people may have already seen it. But people seeing it on the screen later will think it is happening in front of them. Are you saying something like that?"He exclaimed,

"exactly. That is what I am saying. If something is going to happen in future, it will happen when future comes. But somebody may be able to see it before future comes, because it has already happened."Though he did not mention it, I knew why he was thinking along these lines. When I told him the man riding the horse in his vision over the fire was Kalki and he was yet to come, he was probably confused. Given his age and ability to think and understand things, this probably seemed like an oddity to him that he should see somebody who had not yet come. So he was trying to think how it was possible and came to some important conclusions about "time" in his own way.Time seems linear at the level of regular consciousness. However, in many planes of conssciousness, the concept of time becomes changed. It even loses its meaning when one is established in non-dual Aatman or Brahman or Self.* * *The same boy once performed a very

short Kaali homam with a small naama mantra of Dakshina Kaali with beejaakshara added before name. When we were meditating after poornaahuti, I felt a very intense and powerful energy. It was quite different from the energy I feel normally. This intense energy made my mind feel satisfied and blissful and a feeling that can be loosely expressed in words as "I am done here. I have nothing more left to do. Time to leave" filled my entire consciousnss.I had experienced the same kind of intense energy twice before that. Once I experienced the same energy when I was meditating sitting next to my guru Manish who was doing a Chandi homam in India. Second time was when I had an unexpected opportunity to meditate inside the garbhaalaya of a famous temple, standing within 3 feet from the main Kaali idol there, which was sanctified and worshipped by a great saint in the past. The energy I felt was the same on all the three occasions. At no other time did I

feel that intense shakti.Interestingly, after we finished meditation and opened eyes, that boy remarked, "out of all the different homas I did so far, this is the bestest homam." I asked him why. He said, "I don't know how to say it, but it just felt awesome and different."* * *This boy performed a really simple and short procedure, shorter than what I give in manuals. But it seemed like he was successful in making a powerful energy manifest there. The bottomline is that internal purity is the most important thing.Rituals help purify one and purity helps one do a ritual better and get more out of it. It is an egg and chicken problem and one has to keep doing it until one breaks through.Keep performing your chosen spiritual practices, but do pay attention to internal purity as you engage in external practices. The only worthwhile measure of spiritual progress and purity is how smaller your ego becomes. As ego

becomes smaller, you can resist attraction to external things better and you can resist internal enemies like lust, anger, jealosy etc better. You can do your dharma better. Ego - thinking that this is "I" and this is "mine" - is the root cause of all problems.* * *Overcoming ego using jnaana yoga is relatively challenging, but bhakti yoga is easier. Think that all that is around you - including your house, money, cars, spouse, children and your own body - is god's property and that you are a temporary caretaker of all of these properties of god. Do the best job you can, but without entertaining the notion "this is mine". A faithful servant takes very good care of his master's properties, but without thinking of all those things as his or her belongings.Realize that thinking of things as "mine" is not necessary for taking good care of them. A servant who loves one's master takes the best care of things entrusted to one. When a

thing is taken away, a servant does not waste time worrying and crying. A servant will accept that is master's property and can be taken away anytime. This enables one to do the best job with what one possesses and not worry about what one does not possess or what is out of one's control.Developing the attitude of a servant who takes care of master's properties will help one wade the ocean of worldly life without getting caught and overcome ego.Best regards,Narasimha------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ homamDo Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ tarpanaSpirituality: http://groups. / group/vedic- wisdomFree Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro. home.comcast. netFree Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAst rologer.orgSri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagan nath.org------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -

ICC World Twenty20 England '09 exclusively on ! CRICKET

[Guest guest]

Dear Rajesh,

 

Good question!

 

You may be very true when you said Freewill may not be what we think freewill to

be.

 

I remembered some dialogues of Oracle in Matrix reloaded. (She says, you already

made a choice. It is just that you need to realise your choice).

 

Our problem is that we try to assume only one of the contradicting things are

possible.

 

Looking at analogy presented by Narasimha, future may indeed may have happened.

How ever, who said there can only be one future?

There may be multiple versions of the same movie (one for US, one for India, one

for Tamil, one for Telugu etc.). Our freewill may let us decide which movie you

are going to see.

 

A learned person may know what will happen if you use our free will in a

specific know.

 

The eventual question now is can a saintly person foresee with confidence of how

I will excersize my freewill (he can perhaps foresee what will happen if I

choose to excersize my freewill in a particular way. But, does he already know

how I will excersize it)?

 

Best regards,

Vijay

, rajarshi nandy <rajarshi14 wrote:

>

> Namaste Narasimhaji

>  

> No doubt a wonderful and inspiring mail for all of us, however, I could not

help it that an inevitable question popped up in my mind. One of the oft

discussed and eternal questions.

>  

> If events have already been created like in a movie and later as time unfolds,

they happen in our plane of existence, then all talk of freewill must be humbug?

Like a placebo that makes us " happy " but in reality does not exist!

>  

>  

> I am not questioning that what you wrote in the mail about events having

already happened, because same has been said by other great spiritual people in

the world.

>  

> But my question is because I cannot reconcile this with a freewill. Both

cannot be correct. It is either this or that.

>  

> Theoritically speaking, say tomorrow suddenly majority of the world reforms

itself, does a self correction exercise and brings in peace, harmony etc etc,

then why should the Kalki Avatar still incarnate? But then if the Kalki Avatar

has to incarnate - as our texts say - then such a self correcting option is

already negated out.

>  

> Well, theoritically, in a very large viewpoint no one has any choice in the

sense that finally everyone will end up merging with the divine.

>  

> So I guess freewill is not really as free as we love to think.

>  

> -Regards

>  Rajarshi

>

> The upsurge (of consciousness) is Bhairava - Shiva Sutra

>

> --- On Tue, 30/6/09, Narasimha PVR Rao <pvr wrote:

>

>

> Narasimha PVR Rao <pvr

> Miscellany: Future, bestest homam, purity and

overcoming ego

>

> Tuesday, 30 June, 2009, 6:01 AM

>

>

Namaste,

>

> I mentioned an episode of a small boy who did a very short Chandi homam and

saw Vishnu's ten incarnations above the fire in the following mail:

>

> http://groups. / group/vedic- wisdom/message/ 761

>

> This boy was born and brought up in US and is not proficient in his knowledge

of Hinduism. He did not know much about some of the ten incarnations. He

described what he saw and I told him who was who and a little about them. One of

the forms he saw was a radiant man with white clothes riding a white horse on a

dusty road. I told him he was Kalki and he hadn't come yet.

>

> * * *

>

> This boy is usually playful, easy-going and smiling. But, when I was with him

one morning, I saw him lost in some serious thought. This was abou a week after

the episode mentioned in the above mail.

>

> I asked what he was thinking. He said, " it is not that the future that is to

come has not already happened. It has already happened in reality, but it will

happen later when the time comes. You know what I mean? " I guessed what he was

getting at, but pretended not to know. I said, " no. What do you mean? "

>

> He said, " I don't know how to say what I am thinking. " This boy is not known

to be overly intelligent or articulate. His main characteristic is that he is

usually cheerful, playful, sweet, kind, contented and relaxed. However, he was

onto something today. But he could not express himself.

>

> I helped him, " do you mean to say that future has already happened at some

level, but will reveal itself to people later? Kind of like a movie. A movie may

have been shot and become ready in a studio. Some people may have already seen

it. But people seeing it on the screen later will think it is happening in front

of them. Are you saying something like that? "

>

> He exclaimed, " exactly. That is what I am saying. If something is going to

happen in future, it will happen when future comes. But somebody may be able to

see it before future comes, because it has already happened. "

>

> Though he did not mention it, I knew why he was thinking along these lines.

When I told him the man riding the horse in his vision over the fire was Kalki

and he was yet to come, he was probably confused. Given his age and ability to

think and understand things, this probably seemed like an oddity to him that he

should see somebody who had not yet come. So he was trying to think how it was

possible and came to some important conclusions about " time " in his own way.

>

> Time seems linear at the level of regular consciousness. However, in many

planes of conssciousness, the concept of time becomes changed. It even loses its

meaning when one is established in non-dual Aatman or Brahman or Self.

>

> * * *

>

> The same boy once performed a very short Kaali homam with a small naama mantra

of Dakshina Kaali with beejaakshara added before name. When we were meditating

after poornaahuti, I felt a very intense and powerful energy. It was quite

different from the energy I feel normally. This intense energy made my mind feel

satisfied and blissful and a feeling that can be loosely expressed in words as

" I am done here. I have nothing more left to do. Time to leave " filled my entire

consciousnss.

>

> I had experienced the same kind of intense energy twice before that. Once I

experienced the same energy when I was meditating sitting next to my guru Manish

who was doing a Chandi homam in India. Second time was when I had an unexpected

opportunity to meditate inside the garbhaalaya of a famous temple, standing

within 3 feet from the main Kaali idol there, which was sanctified and

worshipped by a great saint in the past. The energy I felt was the same on all

the three occasions. At no other time did I feel that intense shakti.

>

> Interestingly, after we finished meditation and opened eyes, that boy

remarked, " out of all the different homas I did so far, this is the bestest

homam. " I asked him why. He said, " I don't know how to say it, but it just felt

awesome and different. "

>

> * * *

>

> This boy performed a really simple and short procedure, shorter than what I

give in manuals. But it seemed like he was successful in making a powerful

energy manifest there. The bottomline is that internal purity is the most

important thing.

>

> Rituals help purify one and purity helps one do a ritual better and get more

out of it. It is an egg and chicken problem and one has to keep doing it until

one breaks through.

>

> Keep performing your chosen spiritual practices, but do pay attention to

internal purity as you engage in external practices. The only worthwhile measure

of spiritual progress and purity is how smaller your ego becomes. As ego becomes

smaller, you can resist attraction to external things better and you can resist

internal enemies like lust, anger, jealosy etc better. You can do your dharma

better. Ego - thinking that this is " I " and this is " mine " - is the root cause

of all problems.

>

> * * *

>

> Overcoming ego using jnaana yoga is relatively challenging, but bhakti yoga is

easier. Think that all that is around you - including your house, money, cars,

spouse, children and your own body - is god's property and that you are a

temporary caretaker of all of these properties of god. Do the best job you can,

but without entertaining the notion " this is mine " . A faithful servant takes

very good care of his master's properties, but without thinking of all those

things as his or her belongings.

>

> Realize that thinking of things as " mine " is not necessary for taking good

care of them. A servant who loves one's master takes the best care of things

entrusted to one. When a thing is taken away, a servant does not waste time

worrying and crying. A servant will accept that is master's property and can be

taken away anytime. This enables one to do the best job with what one possesses

and not worry about what one does not possess or what is out of one's control.

>

> Developing the attitude of a servant who takes care of master's properties

will help one wade the ocean of worldly life without getting caught and overcome

ego.

>

> Best regards,

> Narasimha

> ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -

> Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ homam

> Do Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ tarpana

> Spirituality: http://groups. / group/vedic- wisdom

> Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro. home.comcast. net

> Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAst rologer.org

> Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagan nath.org

> ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -

>

> ICC World Twenty20 England & #39;09 exclusively on ! CRICKET

http://cricket.

[Guest guest]

Namaste Vijay and Rajarshi

 

>But, does he already know how I will excersize it)?

>

 

I liked your analogy of multiple versions of a movie however my understanding is

that there is nothing called Free will in truest sense. everything is

pre-ordined. anything and everything is shoot in advance. even if multiple

versions are recorded, which version is actually going to be played is also

fixed. it is all FIXED.

 

bestest regards,

 

utpal

 

, " Vijaya Kumara Lakshmi Narayana Rao

Pingali " <pvklnrao wrote:

>

> Dear Rajesh,

>

> Good question!

>

> You may be very true when you said Freewill may not be what we think freewill

to be.

>

> I remembered some dialogues of Oracle in Matrix reloaded. (She says, you

already made a choice. It is just that you need to realise your choice).

>

> Our problem is that we try to assume only one of the contradicting things are

possible.

>

> Looking at analogy presented by Narasimha, future may indeed may have

happened. How ever, who said there can only be one future?

> There may be multiple versions of the same movie (one for US, one for India,

one for Tamil, one for Telugu etc.). Our freewill may let us decide which movie

you are going to see.

>

> A learned person may know what will happen if you use our free will in a

specific know.

>

> The eventual question now is can a saintly person foresee with confidence of

how I will excersize my freewill (he can perhaps foresee what will happen if I

choose to excersize my freewill in a particular way. But, does he already know

how I will excersize it)?

>

> Best regards,

> Vijay

> , rajarshi nandy <rajarshi14@> wrote:

> >

> > Namaste Narasimhaji

> >  

> > No doubt a wonderful and inspiring mail for all of us, however, I could not

help it that an inevitable question popped up in my mind. One of the oft

discussed and eternal questions.

> >  

> > If events have already been created like in a movie and later as time

unfolds, they happen in our plane of existence, then all talk of freewill must

be humbug? Like a placebo that makes us " happy " but in reality does not exist!

> >  

> >  

> > I am not questioning that what you wrote in the mail about events having

already happened, because same has been said by other great spiritual people in

the world.

> >  

> > But my question is because I cannot reconcile this with a freewill. Both

cannot be correct. It is either this or that.

> >  

> > Theoritically speaking, say tomorrow suddenly majority of the world reforms

itself, does a self correction exercise and brings in peace, harmony etc etc,

then why should the Kalki Avatar still incarnate? But then if the Kalki Avatar

has to incarnate - as our texts say - then such a self correcting option is

already negated out.

> >  

> > Well, theoritically, in a very large viewpoint no one has any choice in the

sense that finally everyone will end up merging with the divine.

> >  

> > So I guess freewill is not really as free as we love to think.

> >  

> > -Regards

> >  Rajarshi

> >

> > The upsurge (of consciousness) is Bhairava - Shiva Sutra

> >

> > --- On Tue, 30/6/09, Narasimha PVR Rao <pvr@> wrote:

> >

> >

> > Narasimha PVR Rao <pvr@>

> > Miscellany: Future, bestest homam, purity and

overcoming ego

> >

> > Tuesday, 30 June, 2009, 6:01 AM

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > Namaste,

> >

> > I mentioned an episode of a small boy who did a very short Chandi homam and

saw Vishnu's ten incarnations above the fire in the following mail:

> >

> > http://groups. / group/vedic- wisdom/message/ 761

> >

> > This boy was born and brought up in US and is not proficient in his

knowledge of Hinduism. He did not know much about some of the ten incarnations.

He described what he saw and I told him who was who and a little about them. One

of the forms he saw was a radiant man with white clothes riding a white horse on

a dusty road. I told him he was Kalki and he hadn't come yet.

> >

> > * * *

> >

> > This boy is usually playful, easy-going and smiling. But, when I was with

him one morning, I saw him lost in some serious thought. This was abou a week

after the episode mentioned in the above mail.

> >

> > I asked what he was thinking. He said, " it is not that the future that is to

come has not already happened. It has already happened in reality, but it will

happen later when the time comes. You know what I mean? " I guessed what he was

getting at, but pretended not to know. I said, " no. What do you mean? "

> >

> > He said, " I don't know how to say what I am thinking. " This boy is not known

to be overly intelligent or articulate. His main characteristic is that he is

usually cheerful, playful, sweet, kind, contented and relaxed. However, he was

onto something today. But he could not express himself.

> >

> > I helped him, " do you mean to say that future has already happened at some

level, but will reveal itself to people later? Kind of like a movie. A movie may

have been shot and become ready in a studio. Some people may have already seen

it. But people seeing it on the screen later will think it is happening in front

of them. Are you saying something like that? "

> >

> > He exclaimed, " exactly. That is what I am saying. If something is going to

happen in future, it will happen when future comes. But somebody may be able to

see it before future comes, because it has already happened. "

> >

> > Though he did not mention it, I knew why he was thinking along these lines.

When I told him the man riding the horse in his vision over the fire was Kalki

and he was yet to come, he was probably confused. Given his age and ability to

think and understand things, this probably seemed like an oddity to him that he

should see somebody who had not yet come. So he was trying to think how it was

possible and came to some important conclusions about " time " in his own way.

> >

> > Time seems linear at the level of regular consciousness. However, in many

planes of conssciousness, the concept of time becomes changed. It even loses its

meaning when one is established in non-dual Aatman or Brahman or Self.

> >

> > * * *

> >

> > The same boy once performed a very short Kaali homam with a small naama

mantra of Dakshina Kaali with beejaakshara added before name. When we were

meditating after poornaahuti, I felt a very intense and powerful energy. It was

quite different from the energy I feel normally. This intense energy made my

mind feel satisfied and blissful and a feeling that can be loosely expressed in

words as " I am done here. I have nothing more left to do. Time to leave " filled

my entire consciousnss.

> >

> > I had experienced the same kind of intense energy twice before that. Once I

experienced the same energy when I was meditating sitting next to my guru Manish

who was doing a Chandi homam in India. Second time was when I had an unexpected

opportunity to meditate inside the garbhaalaya of a famous temple, standing

within 3 feet from the main Kaali idol there, which was sanctified and

worshipped by a great saint in the past. The energy I felt was the same on all

the three occasions. At no other time did I feel that intense shakti.

> >

> > Interestingly, after we finished meditation and opened eyes, that boy

remarked, " out of all the different homas I did so far, this is the bestest

homam. " I asked him why. He said, " I don't know how to say it, but it just felt

awesome and different. "

> >

> > * * *

> >

> > This boy performed a really simple and short procedure, shorter than what I

give in manuals. But it seemed like he was successful in making a powerful

energy manifest there. The bottomline is that internal purity is the most

important thing.

> >

> > Rituals help purify one and purity helps one do a ritual better and get more

out of it. It is an egg and chicken problem and one has to keep doing it until

one breaks through.

> >

> > Keep performing your chosen spiritual practices, but do pay attention to

internal purity as you engage in external practices. The only worthwhile measure

of spiritual progress and purity is how smaller your ego becomes. As ego becomes

smaller, you can resist attraction to external things better and you can resist

internal enemies like lust, anger, jealosy etc better. You can do your dharma

better. Ego - thinking that this is " I " and this is " mine " - is the root cause

of all problems.

> >

> > * * *

> >

> > Overcoming ego using jnaana yoga is relatively challenging, but bhakti yoga

is easier. Think that all that is around you - including your house, money,

cars, spouse, children and your own body - is god's property and that you are a

temporary caretaker of all of these properties of god. Do the best job you can,

but without entertaining the notion " this is mine " . A faithful servant takes

very good care of his master's properties, but without thinking of all those

things as his or her belongings.

> >

> > Realize that thinking of things as " mine " is not necessary for taking good

care of them. A servant who loves one's master takes the best care of things

entrusted to one. When a thing is taken away, a servant does not waste time

worrying and crying. A servant will accept that is master's property and can be

taken away anytime. This enables one to do the best job with what one possesses

and not worry about what one does not possess or what is out of one's control.

> >

> > Developing the attitude of a servant who takes care of master's properties

will help one wade the ocean of worldly life without getting caught and overcome

ego.

> >

> > Best regards,

> > Narasimha

> > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -

> > Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ homam

> > Do Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ tarpana

> > Spirituality: http://groups. / group/vedic- wisdom

> > Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro. home.comcast. net

> > Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAst rologer.org

> > Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagan nath.org

> > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -

> >

> > ICC World Twenty20 England & #39;09 exclusively on ! CRICKET

http://cricket.

>

[Guest guest]

Dear Utpal Bhai , Rajarshi ji and all,

 

Namaskar.

I think free will is also a part of Divine Will being orchestrated. The extent of free will is to realise that Divine Will is all that prevails and matters and once you * realise* that is freewill, nothing else but unequivocal submission to Divine Will matters. As The Mother said in one of her teachings that the human 'soul' ( some of them I think) has the free will to choose to take birth in particular mother's womb and have experiences in certain realms. When the experiences manifest the human being is unaware that it their own free will that *opted* for those experiences and blames others for it, 'why me' syndrome as I would prefer to call it. It is what you have asked for.... It takes a lot of realisation to unravel the mystery... maybe some thousands of lives when it dawns that free will is what the Divine Will and submit to *it* fully and unconditionally.. It may seem fatalistic, ambivalent but

it can help accept the fact that nobody else is to be blamed but your * action* with attachment as Narasimha ji would call it, is responsible for what you experience.

My two cents,

Nalini

 

 

 

 

 

 

utpal pathak <vedic_pathak Sent: Wednesday, 1 July, 2009 6:21:54 AM Re: Freewill.

 

Namaste Vijay and Rajarshi>But, does he already know how I will excersize it)?> I liked your analogy of multiple versions of a movie however my understanding is that there is nothing called Free will in truest sense. everything is pre-ordined. anything and everything is shoot in advance. even if multiple versions are recorded, which version is actually going to be played is also fixed. it is all FIXED.bestest regards,utpal, "Vijaya Kumara Lakshmi Narayana Rao Pingali" <pvklnrao@.. .> wrote:>> Dear Rajesh,> > Good question!> > You may be very true when you said Freewill may not be what we think freewill to be.> > I remembered some dialogues of Oracle in Matrix reloaded. (She says,

you already made a choice. It is just that you need to realise your choice).> > Our problem is that we try to assume only one of the contradicting things are possible.> > Looking at analogy presented by Narasimha, future may indeed may have happened. How ever, who said there can only be one future?> There may be multiple versions of the same movie (one for US, one for India, one for Tamil, one for Telugu etc.). Our freewill may let us decide which movie you are going to see.> > A learned person may know what will happen if you use our free will in a specific know.> > The eventual question now is can a saintly person foresee with confidence of how I will excersize my freewill (he can perhaps foresee what will happen if I choose to excersize my freewill in a particular way. But, does he already know how I will excersize it)?> > Best regards,> Vijay> , rajarshi nandy <rajarshi14@ > wrote:> >> > Namaste Narasimhaji> > > > No doubt a wonderful and inspiring mail for all of us, however, I could not help it that an inevitable question popped up in my mind. One of the oft discussed and eternal questions.> > > > If events have already been created like in a movie and later as time unfolds, they happen in our plane of existence, then all talk of freewill must be humbug? Like a placebo that makes us "happy" but in reality does not exist!> > > > > > I am not questioning that what you wrote in the mail about events having already happened, because same has been said by other great spiritual people in the world. > > >

> But my question is because I cannot reconcile this with a freewill. Both cannot be correct. It is either this or that.> > > > Theoritically speaking, say tomorrow suddenly majority of the world reforms itself, does a self correction exercise and brings in peace, harmony etc etc, then why should the Kalki Avatar still incarnate? But then if the Kalki Avatar has to incarnate - as our texts say - then such a self correcting option is already negated out.> > > > Well, theoritically, in a very large viewpoint no one has any choice in the sense that finally everyone will end up merging with the divine.> > > > So I guess freewill is not really as free as we love to think.> > > > -Regards> > Rajarshi> > > > The upsurge (of consciousness) is Bhairava - Shiva Sutra> > > > --- On Tue, 30/6/09,

Narasimha PVR Rao <pvr@> wrote:> > > > > > Narasimha PVR Rao <pvr@>> > Miscellany: Future, bestest homam, purity and overcoming ego> > > > Tuesday, 30 June, 2009, 6:01 AM> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Namaste,> > > > I mentioned an episode of a small boy who did a very short Chandi homam and saw Vishnu's ten incarnations above the fire in the following mail:> > > > http://groups. / group/vedic- wisdom/message/ 761> > > > This boy was born and brought up in US and is not

proficient in his knowledge of Hinduism. He did not know much about some of the ten incarnations. He described what he saw and I told him who was who and a little about them. One of the forms he saw was a radiant man with white clothes riding a white horse on a dusty road. I told him he was Kalki and he hadn't come yet.> > > > * * *> > > > This boy is usually playful, easy-going and smiling. But, when I was with him one morning, I saw him lost in some serious thought. This was abou a week after the episode mentioned in the above mail.> > > > I asked what he was thinking. He said, "it is not that the future that is to come has not already happened. It has already happened in reality, but it will happen later when the time comes. You know what I mean?" I guessed what he was getting at, but pretended not to know. I said, "no. What do you mean?"> > > > He said, "I don't know how

to say what I am thinking." This boy is not known to be overly intelligent or articulate. His main characteristic is that he is usually cheerful, playful, sweet, kind, contented and relaxed. However, he was onto something today. But he could not express himself.> > > > I helped him, "do you mean to say that future has already happened at some level, but will reveal itself to people later? Kind of like a movie. A movie may have been shot and become ready in a studio. Some people may have already seen it. But people seeing it on the screen later will think it is happening in front of them. Are you saying something like that?"> > > > He exclaimed, "exactly. That is what I am saying. If something is going to happen in future, it will happen when future comes. But somebody may be able to see it before future comes, because it has already happened."> > > > Though he did not mention it, I knew why he

was thinking along these lines. When I told him the man riding the horse in his vision over the fire was Kalki and he was yet to come, he was probably confused. Given his age and ability to think and understand things, this probably seemed like an oddity to him that he should see somebody who had not yet come. So he was trying to think how it was possible and came to some important conclusions about "time" in his own way.> > > > Time seems linear at the level of regular consciousness. However, in many planes of conssciousness, the concept of time becomes changed. It even loses its meaning when one is established in non-dual Aatman or Brahman or Self.> > > > * * *> > > > The same boy once performed a very short Kaali homam with a small naama mantra of Dakshina Kaali with beejaakshara added before name. When we were meditating after poornaahuti, I felt a very intense and powerful energy. It was

quite different from the energy I feel normally. This intense energy made my mind feel satisfied and blissful and a feeling that can be loosely expressed in words as "I am done here. I have nothing more left to do. Time to leave" filled my entire consciousnss.> > > > I had experienced the same kind of intense energy twice before that. Once I experienced the same energy when I was meditating sitting next to my guru Manish who was doing a Chandi homam in India. Second time was when I had an unexpected opportunity to meditate inside the garbhaalaya of a famous temple, standing within 3 feet from the main Kaali idol there, which was sanctified and worshipped by a great saint in the past. The energy I felt was the same on all the three occasions. At no other time did I feel that intense shakti.> > > > Interestingly, after we finished meditation and opened eyes, that boy remarked, "out of all the different homas I did

so far, this is the bestest homam." I asked him why. He said, "I don't know how to say it, but it just felt awesome and different."> > > > * * *> > > > This boy performed a really simple and short procedure, shorter than what I give in manuals. But it seemed like he was successful in making a powerful energy manifest there. The bottomline is that internal purity is the most important thing.> > > > Rituals help purify one and purity helps one do a ritual better and get more out of it. It is an egg and chicken problem and one has to keep doing it until one breaks through.> > > > Keep performing your chosen spiritual practices, but do pay attention to internal purity as you engage in external practices. The only worthwhile measure of spiritual progress and purity is how smaller your ego becomes. As ego becomes smaller, you can resist attraction to external things better and you

can resist internal enemies like lust, anger, jealosy etc better. You can do your dharma better. Ego - thinking that this is "I" and this is "mine" - is the root cause of all problems.> > > > * * *> > > > Overcoming ego using jnaana yoga is relatively challenging, but bhakti yoga is easier. Think that all that is around you - including your house, money, cars, spouse, children and your own body - is god's property and that you are a temporary caretaker of all of these properties of god. Do the best job you can, but without entertaining the notion "this is mine". A faithful servant takes very good care of his master's properties, but without thinking of all those things as his or her belongings.> > > > Realize that thinking of things as "mine" is not necessary for taking good care of them. A servant who loves one's master takes the best care of things entrusted to one. When a thing is taken

away, a servant does not waste time worrying and crying. A servant will accept that is master's property and can be taken away anytime. This enables one to do the best job with what one possesses and not worry about what one does not possess or what is out of one's control.> > > > Developing the attitude of a servant who takes care of master's properties will help one wade the ocean of worldly life without getting caught and overcome ego.> > > > Best regards,> > Narasimha> > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -> > Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ homam> > Do Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ tarpana> > Spirituality: http://groups. / group/vedic- wisdom> > Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro. home.comcast. net> > Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAst rologer.org> > Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagan nath.org> > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- - > > > > ICC World Twenty20 England & #39;09 exclusively on ! CRICKET http://cricket. >

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[Guest guest]

Dear Utpal

 

Then what would be the sense of Hari Hara author of Prasna Marga

advising us to cast prashna chart to see how the karma from this birth

influence our future life?

 

What would be the sense of Brhaspati troubling Himself to write

dharma-sastra?

 

Regards

Rafal Gendarz

 

 

utpal pathak pisze:

 

 

 

 

 

Namaste Vijay and Rajarshi

 

>But, does he already know how I will excersize it)?

>

 

I liked your analogy of multiple versions of a movie however my

understanding is that there is nothing called Free will in truest

sense. everything is pre-ordined. anything and everything is shoot in

advance. even if multiple versions are recorded, which version is

actually going to be played is also fixed. it is all FIXED.

 

bestest regards,

 

utpal

 

@

. com, "Vijaya Kumara Lakshmi Narayana Rao Pingali"

<pvklnrao@.. .> wrote:

>

> Dear Rajesh,

>

> Good question!

>

> You may be very true when you said Freewill may not be what we

think freewill to be.

>

> I remembered some dialogues of Oracle in Matrix reloaded. (She

says, you already made a choice. It is just that you need to realise

your choice).

>

> Our problem is that we try to assume only one of the contradicting

things are possible.

>

> Looking at analogy presented by Narasimha, future may indeed may

have happened. How ever, who said there can only be one future?

> There may be multiple versions of the same movie (one for US, one

for India, one for Tamil, one for Telugu etc.). Our freewill may let us

decide which movie you are going to see.

>

> A learned person may know what will happen if you use our free

will in a specific know.

>

> The eventual question now is can a saintly person foresee with

confidence of how I will excersize my freewill (he can perhaps foresee

what will happen if I choose to excersize my freewill in a particular

way. But, does he already know how I will excersize it)?

>

> Best regards,

> Vijay

> @

. com, rajarshi nandy <rajarshi14@ > wrote:

> >

> > Namaste Narasimhaji

> >  

> > No doubt a wonderful and inspiring mail for all of us,

however, I could not help it that an inevitable question popped up in

my mind. One of the oft discussed and eternal questions.

> >  

> > If events have already been created like in a movie and later

as time unfolds, they happen in our plane of existence, then all talk

of freewill must be humbug? Like a placebo that makes us "happy" but in

reality does not exist!

> >  

> >  

> > I am not questioning that what you wrote in the mail about

events having already happened, because same has been said by other

great spiritual people in the world.

> >  

> > But my question is because I cannot reconcile this with a

freewill. Both cannot be correct. It is either this or that.

> >  

> > Theoritically speaking, say tomorrow suddenly majority of the

world reforms itself, does a self correction exercise and brings in

peace, harmony etc etc, then why should the Kalki Avatar still

incarnate? But then if the Kalki Avatar has to incarnate - as our texts

say - then such a self correcting option is already negated out.

> >  

> > Well, theoritically, in a very large viewpoint no one has any

choice in the sense that finally everyone will end up merging with the

divine.

> >  

> > So I guess freewill is not really as free as we love to think.

> >  

> > -Regards

> >  Rajarshi

> >

> > The upsurge (of consciousness) is Bhairava - Shiva Sutra

> >

> > --- On Tue, 30/6/09, Narasimha PVR Rao <pvr@> wrote:

> >

> >

> > Narasimha PVR Rao <pvr@>

> > Miscellany: Future, bestest homam,

purity and overcoming ego

> > @

. com

> > Tuesday, 30 June, 2009, 6:01 AM

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > Namaste,

> >

> > I mentioned an episode of a small boy who did a very short

Chandi homam and saw Vishnu's ten incarnations above the fire in the

following mail:

> >

> > http://groups.

/ group/vedic- wisdom/message/ 761

> >

> > This boy was born and brought up in US and is not proficient

in his knowledge of Hinduism. He did not know much about some of the

ten incarnations. He described what he saw and I told him who was who

and a little about them. One of the forms he saw was a radiant man with

white clothes riding a white horse on a dusty road. I told him he was

Kalki and he hadn't come yet.

> >

> > * * *

> >

> > This boy is usually playful, easy-going and smiling. But,

when I was with him one morning, I saw him lost in some serious

thought. This was abou a week after the episode mentioned in the above

mail.

> >

> > I asked what he was thinking. He said, "it is not that the

future that is to come has not already happened. It has already

happened in reality, but it will happen later when the time comes. You

know what I mean?" I guessed what he was getting at, but pretended not

to know. I said, "no. What do you mean?"

> >

> > He said, "I don't know how to say what I am thinking." This

boy is not known to be overly intelligent or articulate. His main

characteristic is that he is usually cheerful, playful, sweet, kind,

contented and relaxed. However, he was onto something today. But he

could not express himself.

> >

> > I helped him, "do you mean to say that future has already

happened at some level, but will reveal itself to people later? Kind of

like a movie. A movie may have been shot and become ready in a studio.

Some people may have already seen it. But people seeing it on the

screen later will think it is happening in front of them. Are you

saying something like that?"

> >

> > He exclaimed, "exactly. That is what I am saying. If

something is going to happen in future, it will happen when future

comes. But somebody may be able to see it before future comes, because

it has already happened."

> >

> > Though he did not mention it, I knew why he was thinking

along these lines. When I told him the man riding the horse in his

vision over the fire was Kalki and he was yet to come, he was probably

confused. Given his age and ability to think and understand things,

this probably seemed like an oddity to him that he should see somebody

who had not yet come. So he was trying to think how it was possible and

came to some important conclusions about "time" in his own way.

> >

> > Time seems linear at the level of regular consciousness.

However, in many planes of conssciousness, the concept of time becomes

changed. It even loses its meaning when one is established in non-dual

Aatman or Brahman or Self.

> >

> > * * *

> >

> > The same boy once performed a very short Kaali homam with a

small naama mantra of Dakshina Kaali with beejaakshara added before

name. When we were meditating after poornaahuti, I felt a very intense

and powerful energy. It was quite different from the energy I feel

normally. This intense energy made my mind feel satisfied and blissful

and a feeling that can be loosely expressed in words as "I am done

here. I have nothing more left to do. Time to leave" filled my entire

consciousnss.

> >

> > I had experienced the same kind of intense energy twice

before that. Once I experienced the same energy when I was meditating

sitting next to my guru Manish who was doing a Chandi homam in India.

Second time was when I had an unexpected opportunity to meditate inside

the garbhaalaya of a famous temple, standing within 3 feet from the

main Kaali idol there, which was sanctified and worshipped by a great

saint in the past. The energy I felt was the same on all the three

occasions. At no other time did I feel that intense shakti.

> >

> > Interestingly, after we finished meditation and opened eyes,

that boy remarked, "out of all the different homas I did so far, this

is the bestest homam." I asked him why. He said, "I don't know how to

say it, but it just felt awesome and different."

> >

> > * * *

> >

> > This boy performed a really simple and short procedure,

shorter than what I give in manuals. But it seemed like he was

successful in making a powerful energy manifest there. The bottomline

is that internal purity is the most important thing.

> >

> > Rituals help purify one and purity helps one do a ritual

better and get more out of it. It is an egg and chicken problem and one

has to keep doing it until one breaks through.

> >

> > Keep performing your chosen spiritual practices, but do pay

attention to internal purity as you engage in external practices. The

only worthwhile measure of spiritual progress and purity is how smaller

your ego becomes. As ego becomes smaller, you can resist attraction to

external things better and you can resist internal enemies like lust,

anger, jealosy etc better. You can do your dharma better. Ego -

thinking that this is "I" and this is "mine" - is the root cause of all

problems.

> >

> > * * *

> >

> > Overcoming ego using jnaana yoga is relatively challenging,

but bhakti yoga is easier. Think that all that is around you -

including your house, money, cars, spouse, children and your own body -

is god's property and that you are a temporary caretaker of all of

these properties of god. Do the best job you can, but without

entertaining the notion "this is mine". A faithful servant takes very

good care of his master's properties, but without thinking of all those

things as his or her belongings.

> >

> > Realize that thinking of things as "mine" is not necessary

for taking good care of them. A servant who loves one's master takes

the best care of things entrusted to one. When a thing is taken away, a

servant does not waste time worrying and crying. A servant will accept

that is master's property and can be taken away anytime. This enables

one to do the best job with what one possesses and not worry about what

one does not possess or what is out of one's control.

> >

> > Developing the attitude of a servant who takes care of

master's properties will help one wade the ocean of worldly life

without getting caught and overcome ego.

> >

> > Best regards,

> > Narasimha

> > ------------ --------- --------- --------- ---------

--------- -

> > Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ homam

> > Do Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ tarpana

> > Spirituality: http://groups.

/ group/vedic- wisdom

> > Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro. home.comcast. net

> > Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAst rologer.org

> > Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagan nath.org

> > ------------ --------- --------- --------- ---------

--------- -

> >

> > ICC World Twenty20 England & #39;09 exclusively on !

CRICKET http://cricket.

 

>

[Guest guest]

Namaste Rafal and Nalini Bahen and other members,

 

Yesterday i wrote in somewhat unusual mood. I know it's a highly controversial

statement and very difficult to prove or explain.

 

Somehow i have come to some kind of abstract understanding that even the thing

which we call 'free will' is also pre-ordained. the famous example of 'Goat tied

up with a pole' by thakur, wonderful explanations by Narasimha and many other

explanations by earlier philosophical thinkers in relation to free will and

destiny are not to be disputed here. they all seem true, however, personally

I've a unexplainable feeling that in the ultimate analysis, all the show is

*completely* dictated.

 

I wish to write a bit, not for the sake of empty arguments for proving my point

(actually i have no strong point here as my thinking is not baked by sound

logic).

***Nalini bahen said that some souls have free will to take the rebirth and so

on. i would say that here that their wish on account of *their own free will* is

also exactly dictated by Supreme power.

 

*Rafal questioned by stating examples of Prashna chart by Harihara and

dharma-sastra by Bruhaspati. i would say that that also is ordained to happen

exactly the way it happened. Prashna chart of a moment gives the idea of action

done till that point which will dictate future life. my foolish, childish

blabbering says that the karma till that moment had been pre-ordained and the

future is also DONE. Hari hara writing prashna maarga, content of writing, use

of the paper and pen, sitting direction, thoughts while writing, my typing on my

pc, your reactions and everything else has actually no free will.

 

Finally what I wish to say is that " Free will is also Fixed Will "

 

Everything,-every damn thing, is ordered by 'Durgaa Bhagavati Bhadra yayedam

dharyate jagat " .

 

But all these are written with some intellectual understanding and not

realization. As narasimha Garu often says, in the realm of Maya, nobody can be

sure of anything.

 

Dear members, including my Guru - please ignore me and also forgive me if it was

in a bad taste, ridiculous and senseless.

 

Yours,

 

Utpal

 

 

 

 

, nalini swamy <nalini2818 wrote:

>

> Dear Utpal Bhai , Rajarshi ji and all,

>

> Namaskar.

> I think free will is also a part of Divine Will being orchestrated. The extent

of free will is to realise that Divine Will is all that prevails and matters and

once you * realise* that is freewill, nothing else but unequivocal submission to

Divine Will  matters.

> As The Mother said in one of her teachings that the human 'soul' ( some of

them I think) has the free will to choose to take birth in particular mother's

 womb and have experiences in  certain realms. When the experiences manifest the

human being is unaware that it their own free will that *opted* for those

experiences and blames others for it, 'why me' syndrome as I would prefer to

call it. It is what you have asked for.... It takes a lot of realisation to

unravel the mystery... maybe some thousands of lives when it dawns that free

will is what the Divine  Will and submit to *it* fully and unconditionally.. It

may seem fatalistic, ambivalent but it can help accept the fact that nobody else

is to be blamed but your * action* with attachment as Narasimha ji would call

it, is responsible for what you experience.

> My two cents,

> Nalini

>  

>

>

>

>

> ________________________________

> utpal pathak <vedic_pathak

>

> Wednesday, 1 July, 2009 6:21:54 AM

> Re: Freewill.

>

>

>

>

>

> Namaste Vijay and Rajarshi

>

> >But, does he already know how I will excersize it)?

> >

>

> I liked your analogy of multiple versions of a movie however my understanding

is that there is nothing called Free will in truest sense. everything is

pre-ordined. anything and everything is shoot in advance. even if multiple

versions are recorded, which version is actually going to be played is also

fixed. it is all FIXED.

>

> bestest regards,

>

> utpal

>

> , " Vijaya Kumara Lakshmi Narayana Rao

Pingali " <pvklnrao@ .> wrote:

> >

> > Dear Rajesh,

> >

> > Good question!

> >

> > You may be very true when you said Freewill may not be what we think

freewill to be.

> >

> > I remembered some dialogues of Oracle in Matrix reloaded. (She says, you

already made a choice. It is just that you need to realise your choice).

> >

> > Our problem is that we try to assume only one of the contradicting things

are possible.

> >

> > Looking at analogy presented by Narasimha, future may indeed may have

happened. How ever, who said there can only be one future?

> > There may be multiple versions of the same movie (one for US, one for India,

one for Tamil, one for Telugu etc.). Our freewill may let us decide which movie

you are going to see.

> >

> > A learned person may know what will happen if you use our free will in a

specific know.

> >

> > The eventual question now is can a saintly person foresee with confidence of

how I will excersize my freewill (he can perhaps foresee what will happen if I

choose to excersize my freewill in a particular way. But, does he already know

how I will excersize it)?

> >

> > Best regards,

> > Vijay

> > , rajarshi nandy <rajarshi14@ > wrote:

> > >

> > > Namaste Narasimhaji

> > >  

> > > No doubt a wonderful and inspiring mail for all of us, however, I could

not help it that an inevitable question popped up in my mind. One of the oft

discussed and eternal questions.

> > >  

> > > If events have already been created like in a movie and later as time

unfolds, they happen in our plane of existence, then all talk of freewill must

be humbug? Like a placebo that makes us " happy " but in reality does not exist!

> > >  

> > >  

> > > I am not questioning that what you wrote in the mail about events having

already happened, because same has been said by other great spiritual people in

the world.

> > >  

> > > But my question is because I cannot reconcile this with a freewill. Both

cannot be correct. It is either this or that.

> > >  

> > > Theoritically speaking, say tomorrow suddenly majority of the world

reforms itself, does a self correction exercise and brings in peace, harmony etc

etc, then why should the Kalki Avatar still incarnate? But then if the Kalki

Avatar has to incarnate - as our texts say - then such a self correcting option

is already negated out.

> > >  

> > > Well, theoritically, in a very large viewpoint no one has any choice in

the sense that finally everyone will end up merging with the divine.

> > >  

> > > So I guess freewill is not really as free as we love to think.

> > >  

> > > -Regards

> > >  Rajarshi

> > >

> > > The upsurge (of consciousness) is Bhairava - Shiva Sutra

> > >

> > > --- On Tue, 30/6/09, Narasimha PVR Rao <pvr@> wrote:

> > >

> > >

> > > Narasimha PVR Rao <pvr@>

> > > Miscellany: Future, bestest homam, purity and

overcoming ego

> > >

> > > Tuesday, 30 June, 2009, 6:01 AM

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > Namaste,

> > >

> > > I mentioned an episode of a small boy who did a very short Chandi homam

and saw Vishnu's ten incarnations above the fire in the following mail:

> > >

> > > http://groups. / group/vedic- wisdom/message/ 761

> > >

> > > This boy was born and brought up in US and is not proficient in his

knowledge of Hinduism. He did not know much about some of the ten incarnations.

He described what he saw and I told him who was who and a little about them. One

of the forms he saw was a radiant man with white clothes riding a white horse on

a dusty road. I told him he was Kalki and he hadn't come yet.

> > >

> > > * * *

> > >

> > > This boy is usually playful, easy-going and smiling. But, when I was with

him one morning, I saw him lost in some serious thought. This was abou a week

after the episode mentioned in the above mail.

> > >

> > > I asked what he was thinking. He said, " it is not that the future that is

to come has not already happened. It has already happened in reality, but it

will happen later when the time comes. You know what I mean? " I guessed what he

was getting at, but pretended not to know. I said, " no. What do you mean? "

> > >

> > > He said, " I don't know how to say what I am thinking. " This boy is not

known to be overly intelligent or articulate. His main characteristic is that he

is usually cheerful, playful, sweet, kind, contented and relaxed. However, he

was onto something today. But he could not express himself.

> > >

> > > I helped him, " do you mean to say that future has already happened at some

level, but will reveal itself to people later? Kind of like a movie. A movie may

have been shot and become ready in a studio. Some people may have already seen

it. But people seeing it on the screen later will think it is happening in front

of them. Are you saying something like that? "

> > >

> > > He exclaimed, " exactly. That is what I am saying. If something is going to

happen in future, it will happen when future comes. But somebody may be able to

see it before future comes, because it has already happened. "

> > >

> > > Though he did not mention it, I knew why he was thinking along these

lines. When I told him the man riding the horse in his vision over the fire was

Kalki and he was yet to come, he was probably confused. Given his age and

ability to think and understand things, this probably seemed like an oddity to

him that he should see somebody who had not yet come. So he was trying to think

how it was possible and came to some important conclusions about " time " in his

own way.

> > >

> > > Time seems linear at the level of regular consciousness. However, in many

planes of conssciousness, the concept of time becomes changed. It even loses its

meaning when one is established in non-dual Aatman or Brahman or Self.

> > >

> > > * * *

> > >

> > > The same boy once performed a very short Kaali homam with a small naama

mantra of Dakshina Kaali with beejaakshara added before name. When we were

meditating after poornaahuti, I felt a very intense and powerful energy. It was

quite different from the energy I feel normally. This intense energy made my

mind feel satisfied and blissful and a feeling that can be loosely expressed in

words as " I am done here. I have nothing more left to do. Time to leave " filled

my entire consciousnss.

> > >

> > > I had experienced the same kind of intense energy twice before that. Once

I experienced the same energy when I was meditating sitting next to my guru

Manish who was doing a Chandi homam in India. Second time was when I had an

unexpected opportunity to meditate inside the garbhaalaya of a famous temple,

standing within 3 feet from the main Kaali idol there, which was sanctified and

worshipped by a great saint in the past. The energy I felt was the same on all

the three occasions. At no other time did I feel that intense shakti.

> > >

> > > Interestingly, after we finished meditation and opened eyes, that boy

remarked, " out of all the different homas I did so far, this is the bestest

homam. " I asked him why. He said, " I don't know how to say it, but it just felt

awesome and different. "

> > >

> > > * * *

> > >

> > > This boy performed a really simple and short procedure, shorter than what

I give in manuals. But it seemed like he was successful in making a powerful

energy manifest there. The bottomline is that internal purity is the most

important thing.

> > >

> > > Rituals help purify one and purity helps one do a ritual better and get

more out of it. It is an egg and chicken problem and one has to keep doing it

until one breaks through.

> > >

> > > Keep performing your chosen spiritual practices, but do pay attention to

internal purity as you engage in external practices. The only worthwhile measure

of spiritual progress and purity is how smaller your ego becomes. As ego becomes

smaller, you can resist attraction to external things better and you can resist

internal enemies like lust, anger, jealosy etc better. You can do your dharma

better. Ego - thinking that this is " I " and this is " mine " - is the root cause

of all problems.

> > >

> > > * * *

> > >

> > > Overcoming ego using jnaana yoga is relatively challenging, but bhakti

yoga is easier. Think that all that is around you - including your house, money,

cars, spouse, children and your own body - is god's property and that you are a

temporary caretaker of all of these properties of god. Do the best job you can,

but without entertaining the notion " this is mine " . A faithful servant takes

very good care of his master's properties, but without thinking of all those

things as his or her belongings.

> > >

> > > Realize that thinking of things as " mine " is not necessary for taking good

care of them. A servant who loves one's master takes the best care of things

entrusted to one. When a thing is taken away, a servant does not waste time

worrying and crying. A servant will accept that is master's property and can be

taken away anytime. This enables one to do the best job with what one possesses

and not worry about what one does not possess or what is out of one's control.

> > >

> > > Developing the attitude of a servant who takes care of master's properties

will help one wade the ocean of worldly life without getting caught and overcome

ego.

> > >

> > > Best regards,

> > > Narasimha

> > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -

> > > Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ homam

> > > Do Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ tarpana

> > > Spirituality: http://groups. / group/vedic- wisdom

> > > Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro. home.comcast. net

> > > Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAst rologer.org

> > > Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagan nath.org

> > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -

> > >

> > > ICC World Twenty20 England & #39;09 exclusively on ! CRICKET

http://cricket.

> >

>

[Guest guest]

hraum krishnaya namah

Dear Utpal  ,

 

On vyavaharika platform Brhaspatis law based on advises (advise

contains free will) would be then useless and misleading (avidya) which

is against the dharma (quality) of Guru/Jupiter (satya).

 

Therefore this line of thinking is against the logic.

 

 

Regards

Rafal Gendarz

SJC Jyotish Guru

--------------

Consultations & Pages

http://rohinaa.com

rafal

 

utpal pathak pisze:

 

 

 

 

 

Namaste Rafal and Nalini Bahen and other members,

 

Yesterday i wrote in somewhat unusual mood. I know it's a highly

controversial statement and very difficult to prove or explain.

 

Somehow i have come to some kind of abstract understanding that even

the thing which we call 'free will' is also pre-ordained. the famous

example of 'Goat tied up with a pole' by thakur, wonderful explanations

by Narasimha and many other explanations by earlier philosophical

thinkers in relation to free will and destiny are not to be disputed

here. they all seem true, however, personally I've a unexplainable

feeling that in the ultimate analysis, all the show is *completely*

dictated.

 

I wish to write a bit, not for the sake of empty arguments for proving

my point (actually i have no strong point here as my thinking is not

baked by sound logic).

***Nalini bahen said that some souls have free will to take the rebirth

and so on. i would say that here that their wish on account of *their

own free will* is also exactly dictated by Supreme power.

 

*Rafal questioned by stating examples of Prashna chart by Harihara and

dharma-sastra by Bruhaspati. i would say that that also is ordained to

happen exactly the way it happened. Prashna chart of a moment gives the

idea of action done till that point which will dictate future life. my

foolish, childish blabbering says that the karma till that moment had

been pre-ordained and the future is also DONE. Hari hara writing

prashna maarga, content of writing, use of the paper and pen, sitting

direction, thoughts while writing, my typing on my pc, your reactions

and everything else has actually no free will.

 

Finally what I wish to say is that "Free will is also Fixed Will"

 

Everything,- every damn thing, is ordered by 'Durgaa Bhagavati Bhadra

yayedam dharyate jagat".

 

But all these are written with some intellectual understanding and not

realization. As narasimha Garu often says, in the realm of Maya, nobody

can be sure of anything.

 

Dear members, including my Guru - please ignore me and also forgive me

if it was in a bad taste, ridiculous and senseless.

 

Yours,

 

Utpal

 

@

. com, nalini swamy <nalini2818@ ...> wrote:

>

> Dear Utpal Bhai , Rajarshi ji and all,

>

> Namaskar.

> I think free will is also a part of Divine Will being

orchestrated.  The extent of free will is to realise that Divine Will

is all that prevails and matters and once you * realise* that is

freewill, nothing else but unequivocal submission to Divine Will 

matters.

> As The Mother said in one of her teachings that the human 'soul' (

some of them I think) has the free will to choose to take birth in

particular mother's  womb and have experiences in  certain realms. When

the experiences manifest the human being is unaware that it their own

free will that *opted* for those experiences and blames others for it,

'why me' syndrome as I would prefer to call it. It is what you have

asked for.... It takes a lot of realisation to unravel the mystery...

maybe some thousands of lives when it dawns that free will is what the

Divine  Will and submit to *it* fully and unconditionally. . It may

seem fatalistic, ambivalent but it can help accept the fact that nobody

else is to be blamed but your * action* with attachment as Narasimha ji

would call it, is responsible for what you experience.

> My two cents,

> Nalini

>  

>

>

>

>

> ____________ _________ _________ __

> utpal pathak <vedic_pathak@ ...>

> @

. com

> Wednesday, 1 July, 2009 6:21:54 AM

> Re: Freewill.

>

>

>

>

>

> Namaste Vijay and Rajarshi

>

> >But, does he already know how I will excersize it)?

> >

>

> I liked your analogy of multiple versions of a movie however my

understanding is that there is nothing called Free will in truest

sense. everything is pre-ordined. anything and everything is shoot in

advance. even if multiple versions are recorded, which version is

actually going to be played is also fixed. it is all FIXED.

>

> bestest regards,

>

> utpal

>

> , "Vijaya Kumara Lakshmi

Narayana Rao Pingali" <pvklnrao@ .> wrote:

> >

> > Dear Rajesh,

> >

> > Good question!

> >

> > You may be very true when you said Freewill may not be what

we think freewill to be.

> >

> > I remembered some dialogues of Oracle in Matrix reloaded.

(She says, you already made a choice. It is just that you need to

realise your choice).

> >

> > Our problem is that we try to assume only one of the

contradicting things are possible.

> >

> > Looking at analogy presented by Narasimha, future may indeed

may have happened. How ever, who said there can only be one future?

> > There may be multiple versions of the same movie (one for US,

one for India, one for Tamil, one for Telugu etc.). Our freewill may

let us decide which movie you are going to see.

> >

> > A learned person may know what will happen if you use our

free will in a specific know.

> >

> > The eventual question now is can a saintly person foresee

with confidence of how I will excersize my freewill (he can perhaps

foresee what will happen if I choose to excersize my freewill in a

particular way. But, does he already know how I will excersize it)?

> >

> > Best regards,

> > Vijay

> > , rajarshi nandy

<rajarshi14@ > wrote:

> > >

> > > Namaste Narasimhaji

> > >  

> > > No doubt a wonderful and inspiring mail for all of us,

however, I could not help it that an inevitable question popped up in

my mind. One of the oft discussed and eternal questions.

> > >  

> > > If events have already been created like in a movie and

later as time unfolds, they happen in our plane of existence, then all

talk of freewill must be humbug? Like a placebo that makes us "happy"

but in reality does not exist!

> > >  

> > >  

> > > I am not questioning that what you wrote in the mail

about events having already happened, because same has been said by

other great spiritual people in the world.

> > >  

> > > But my question is because I cannot reconcile this with

a freewill. Both cannot be correct. It is either this or that.

> > >  

> > > Theoritically speaking, say tomorrow suddenly majority

of the world reforms itself, does a self correction exercise and brings

in peace, harmony etc etc, then why should the Kalki Avatar still

incarnate? But then if the Kalki Avatar has to incarnate - as our texts

say - then such a self correcting option is already negated out.

> > >  

> > > Well, theoritically, in a very large viewpoint no one

has any choice in the sense that finally everyone will end up merging

with the divine.

> > >  

> > > So I guess freewill is not really as free as we love to

think.

> > >  

> > > -Regards

> > >  Rajarshi

> > >

> > > The upsurge (of consciousness) is Bhairava - Shiva Sutra

> > >

> > > --- On Tue, 30/6/09, Narasimha PVR Rao <pvr@>

wrote:

> > >

> > >

> > > Narasimha PVR Rao <pvr@>

> > > Miscellany: Future, bestest

homam, purity and overcoming ego

> > >

> > > Tuesday, 30 June, 2009, 6:01 AM

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > Namaste,

> > >

> > > I mentioned an episode of a small boy who did a very

short Chandi homam and saw Vishnu's ten incarnations above the fire in

the following mail:

> > >

> > > http://groups.

/ group/vedic- wisdom/message/ 761

> > >

> > > This boy was born and brought up in US and is not

proficient in his knowledge of Hinduism. He did not know much about

some of the ten incarnations. He described what he saw and I told him

who was who and a little about them. One of the forms he saw was a

radiant man with white clothes riding a white horse on a dusty road. I

told him he was Kalki and he hadn't come yet.

> > >

> > > * * *

> > >

> > > This boy is usually playful, easy-going and smiling.

But, when I was with him one morning, I saw him lost in some serious

thought. This was abou a week after the episode mentioned in the above

mail.

> > >

> > > I asked what he was thinking. He said, "it is not that

the future that is to come has not already happened. It has already

happened in reality, but it will happen later when the time comes. You

know what I mean?" I guessed what he was getting at, but pretended not

to know. I said, "no. What do you mean?"

> > >

> > > He said, "I don't know how to say what I am thinking."

This boy is not known to be overly intelligent or articulate. His main

characteristic is that he is usually cheerful, playful, sweet, kind,

contented and relaxed. However, he was onto something today. But he

could not express himself.

> > >

> > > I helped him, "do you mean to say that future has

already happened at some level, but will reveal itself to people later?

Kind of like a movie. A movie may have been shot and become ready in a

studio. Some people may have already seen it. But people seeing it on

the screen later will think it is happening in front of them. Are you

saying something like that?"

> > >

> > > He exclaimed, "exactly. That is what I am saying. If

something is going to happen in future, it will happen when future

comes. But somebody may be able to see it before future comes, because

it has already happened."

> > >

> > > Though he did not mention it, I knew why he was thinking

along these lines. When I told him the man riding the horse in his

vision over the fire was Kalki and he was yet to come, he was probably

confused. Given his age and ability to think and understand things,

this probably seemed like an oddity to him that he should see somebody

who had not yet come. So he was trying to think how it was possible and

came to some important conclusions about "time" in his own way.

> > >

> > > Time seems linear at the level of regular consciousness.

However, in many planes of conssciousness, the concept of time becomes

changed. It even loses its meaning when one is established in non-dual

Aatman or Brahman or Self.

> > >

> > > * * *

> > >

> > > The same boy once performed a very short Kaali homam

with a small naama mantra of Dakshina Kaali with beejaakshara added

before name. When we were meditating after poornaahuti, I felt a very

intense and powerful energy. It was quite different from the energy I

feel normally. This intense energy made my mind feel satisfied and

blissful and a feeling that can be loosely expressed in words as "I am

done here. I have nothing more left to do. Time to leave" filled my

entire consciousnss.

> > >

> > > I had experienced the same kind of intense energy twice

before that. Once I experienced the same energy when I was meditating

sitting next to my guru Manish who was doing a Chandi homam in India.

Second time was when I had an unexpected opportunity to meditate inside

the garbhaalaya of a famous temple, standing within 3 feet from the

main Kaali idol there, which was sanctified and worshipped by a great

saint in the past. The energy I felt was the same on all the three

occasions. At no other time did I feel that intense shakti.

> > >

> > > Interestingly, after we finished meditation and opened

eyes, that boy remarked, "out of all the different homas I did so far,

this is the bestest homam." I asked him why. He said, "I don't know how

to say it, but it just felt awesome and different."

> > >

> > > * * *

> > >

> > > This boy performed a really simple and short procedure,

shorter than what I give in manuals. But it seemed like he was

successful in making a powerful energy manifest there. The bottomline

is that internal purity is the most important thing.

> > >

> > > Rituals help purify one and purity helps one do a ritual

better and get more out of it. It is an egg and chicken problem and one

has to keep doing it until one breaks through.

> > >

> > > Keep performing your chosen spiritual practices, but do

pay attention to internal purity as you engage in external practices.

The only worthwhile measure of spiritual progress and purity is how

smaller your ego becomes. As ego becomes smaller, you can resist

attraction to external things better and you can resist internal

enemies like lust, anger, jealosy etc better. You can do your dharma

better. Ego - thinking that this is "I" and this is "mine" - is the

root cause of all problems.

> > >

> > > * * *

> > >

> > > Overcoming ego using jnaana yoga is relatively

challenging, but bhakti yoga is easier. Think that all that is around

you - including your house, money, cars, spouse, children and your own

body - is god's property and that you are a temporary caretaker of all

of these properties of god. Do the best job you can, but without

entertaining the notion "this is mine". A faithful servant takes very

good care of his master's properties, but without thinking of all those

things as his or her belongings.

> > >

> > > Realize that thinking of things as "mine" is not

necessary for taking good care of them. A servant who loves one's

master takes the best care of things entrusted to one. When a thing is

taken away, a servant does not waste time worrying and crying. A

servant will accept that is master's property and can be taken away

anytime. This enables one to do the best job with what one possesses

and not worry about what one does not possess or what is out of one's

control.

> > >

> > > Developing the attitude of a servant who takes care of

master's properties will help one wade the ocean of worldly life

without getting caught and overcome ego.

> > >

> > > Best regards,

> > > Narasimha

> > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- ---------

--------- -

> > > Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ homam

> > > Do Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ tarpana

> > > Spirituality: http://groups. / group/vedic- wisdom

> > > Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro. home.comcast. net

> > > Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAst

rologer.org

> > > Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagan

nath.org

> > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- ---------

--------- -

> > >

> > > ICC World Twenty20 England & #39;09 exclusively on

! CRICKET http://cricket.

 

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Namaste Rafal,

 

I understand your words but i wish to point out that " Everything is pre-defined "

is not against Dharma. Fixed will does not in any way goes against Dharma

Shastra by Brihaspati or any other moral codes given by Manu and others.

 

Say for instance: A is suppose to be a fool in a birth so 'A' does foolish

activities and gets the fruits of the same. B is suppose to be a demon in one

life. it is ordained that way and hence B keeps on engaging in gruesome

activities due to wrath, jealosy, pride, etc..does exactly as ordained and gets

the fruits accordingly. when A and B are destined to realise self, they will

think and act accordingly, they will meet a right Guru, do lawful activities,

sadhanaas etc.. and the fruit of all these will be self realisation which was

already fixed. so every activities and corresponding Fruits (mental and

physical), would be in compliance with the law of nature and ther is no

violation just becuase the drama is fixed.

 

 

Warm Regards,

 

Utpal

 

 

, Rafał Gendarz <starsuponme wrote:

>

> /*hraum krishnaya namah*/

> Dear Utpal ,

>

> On vyavaharika platform Brhaspatis law based on advises (advise contains

> free will) would be then useless and misleading (avidya) which is

> against the dharma (quality) of Guru/Jupiter (satya).

>

> Therefore this line of thinking is against the logic.

>

>

> Regards

> Rafal Gendarz

> SJC Jyotish Guru

> --------------

> /*Consultations & Pages*

> http://rohinaa.com

> rafal/

>

> utpal pathak pisze:

> >

> >

> > Namaste Rafal and Nalini Bahen and other members,

> >

> > Yesterday i wrote in somewhat unusual mood. I know it's a highly

> > controversial statement and very difficult to prove or explain.

> >

> > Somehow i have come to some kind of abstract understanding that even

> > the thing which we call 'free will' is also pre-ordained. the famous

> > example of 'Goat tied up with a pole' by thakur, wonderful

> > explanations by Narasimha and many other explanations by earlier

> > philosophical thinkers in relation to free will and destiny are not to

> > be disputed here. they all seem true, however, personally I've a

> > unexplainable feeling that in the ultimate analysis, all the show is

> > *completely* dictated.

> >

> > I wish to write a bit, not for the sake of empty arguments for proving

> > my point (actually i have no strong point here as my thinking is not

> > baked by sound logic).

> > ***Nalini bahen said that some souls have free will to take the

> > rebirth and so on. i would say that here that their wish on account of

> > *their own free will* is also exactly dictated by Supreme power.

> >

> > *Rafal questioned by stating examples of Prashna chart by Harihara and

> > dharma-sastra by Bruhaspati. i would say that that also is ordained to

> > happen exactly the way it happened. Prashna chart of a moment gives

> > the idea of action done till that point which will dictate future

> > life. my foolish, childish blabbering says that the karma till that

> > moment had been pre-ordained and the future is also DONE. Hari hara

> > writing prashna maarga, content of writing, use of the paper and pen,

> > sitting direction, thoughts while writing, my typing on my pc, your

> > reactions and everything else has actually no free will.

> >

> > Finally what I wish to say is that " Free will is also Fixed Will "

> >

> > Everything,- every damn thing, is ordered by 'Durgaa Bhagavati Bhadra

> > yayedam dharyate jagat " .

> >

> > But all these are written with some intellectual understanding and not

> > realization. As narasimha Garu often says, in the realm of Maya,

> > nobody can be sure of anything.

> >

> > Dear members, including my Guru - please ignore me and also forgive me

> > if it was in a bad taste, ridiculous and senseless.

> >

> > Yours,

> >

> > Utpal

> >

> >

> > <%40>, nalini swamy <nalini2818@

> > ...> wrote:

> > >

> > > Dear Utpal Bhai , Rajarshi ji and all,

> > >

> > > Namaskar.

> > > I think free will is also a part of Divine Will being orchestrated.

> > The extent of free will is to realise that Divine Will is all that

> > prevails and matters and once you * realise* that is freewill, nothing

> > else but unequivocal submission to Divine Will matters.

> > > As The Mother said in one of her teachings that the human 'soul' (

> > some of them I think) has the free will to choose to take birth in

> > particular mother's womb and have experiences in certain realms.

> > When the experiences manifest the human being is unaware that it their

> > own free will that *opted* for those experiences and blames others for

> > it, 'why me' syndrome as I would prefer to call it. It is what you

> > have asked for.... It takes a lot of realisation to unravel the

> > mystery... maybe some thousands of lives when it dawns that free will

> > is what the Divine Will and submit to *it* fully and unconditionally.

> > . It may seem fatalistic, ambivalent but it can help accept the fact

> > that nobody else is to be blamed but your * action* with attachment as

> > Narasimha ji would call it, is responsible for what you experience.

> > > My two cents,

> > > Nalini

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > ____________ _________ _________ __

> > > utpal pathak <vedic_pathak@ ...>

> > >

> > <%40>

> > > Wednesday, 1 July, 2009 6:21:54 AM

> > > Re: Freewill.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > Namaste Vijay and Rajarshi

> > >

> > > >But, does he already know how I will excersize it)?

> > > >

> > >

> > > I liked your analogy of multiple versions of a movie however my

> > understanding is that there is nothing called Free will in truest

> > sense. everything is pre-ordined. anything and everything is shoot in

> > advance. even if multiple versions are recorded, which version is

> > actually going to be played is also fixed. it is all FIXED.

> > >

> > > bestest regards,

> > >

> > > utpal

> > >

> > > , " Vijaya Kumara Lakshmi

> > Narayana Rao Pingali " <pvklnrao@ .> wrote:

> > > >

> > > > Dear Rajesh,

> > > >

> > > > Good question!

> > > >

> > > > You may be very true when you said Freewill may not be what we

> > think freewill to be.

> > > >

> > > > I remembered some dialogues of Oracle in Matrix reloaded. (She

> > says, you already made a choice. It is just that you need to realise

> > your choice).

> > > >

> > > > Our problem is that we try to assume only one of the contradicting

> > things are possible.

> > > >

> > > > Looking at analogy presented by Narasimha, future may indeed may

> > have happened. How ever, who said there can only be one future?

> > > > There may be multiple versions of the same movie (one for US, one

> > for India, one for Tamil, one for Telugu etc.). Our freewill may let

> > us decide which movie you are going to see.

> > > >

> > > > A learned person may know what will happen if you use our free

> > will in a specific know.

> > > >

> > > > The eventual question now is can a saintly person foresee with

> > confidence of how I will excersize my freewill (he can perhaps foresee

> > what will happen if I choose to excersize my freewill in a particular

> > way. But, does he already know how I will excersize it)?

> > > >

> > > > Best regards,

> > > > Vijay

> > > > , rajarshi nandy <rajarshi14@

> > > wrote:

> > > > >

> > > > > Namaste Narasimhaji

> > > > >

> > > > > No doubt a wonderful and inspiring mail for all of us, however,

> > I could not help it that an inevitable question popped up in my mind.

> > One of the oft discussed and eternal questions.

> > > > >

> > > > > If events have already been created like in a movie and later as

> > time unfolds, they happen in our plane of existence, then all talk of

> > freewill must be humbug? Like a placebo that makes us " happy " but in

> > reality does not exist!

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > I am not questioning that what you wrote in the mail about

> > events having already happened, because same has been said by other

> > great spiritual people in the world.

> > > > >

> > > > > But my question is because I cannot reconcile this with a

> > freewill. Both cannot be correct. It is either this or that.

> > > > >

> > > > > Theoritically speaking, say tomorrow suddenly majority of the

> > world reforms itself, does a self correction exercise and brings in

> > peace, harmony etc etc, then why should the Kalki Avatar still

> > incarnate? But then if the Kalki Avatar has to incarnate - as our

> > texts say - then such a self correcting option is already negated out.

> > > > >

> > > > > Well, theoritically, in a very large viewpoint no one has any

> > choice in the sense that finally everyone will end up merging with the

> > divine.

> > > > >

> > > > > So I guess freewill is not really as free as we love to think.

> > > > >

> > > > > -Regards

> > > > > Rajarshi

> > > > >

> > > > > The upsurge (of consciousness) is Bhairava - Shiva Sutra

> > > > >

> > > > > --- On Tue, 30/6/09, Narasimha PVR Rao <pvr@> wrote:

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > Narasimha PVR Rao <pvr@>

> > > > > Miscellany: Future, bestest homam,

> > purity and overcoming ego

> > > > >

> > > > > Tuesday, 30 June, 2009, 6:01 AM

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > Namaste,

> > > > >

> > > > > I mentioned an episode of a small boy who did a very short

> > Chandi homam and saw Vishnu's ten incarnations above the fire in the

> > following mail:

> > > > >

> > > > > http://groups. / group/vedic- wisdom/message/ 761

> > > > >

> > > > > This boy was born and brought up in US and is not proficient in

> > his knowledge of Hinduism. He did not know much about some of the ten

> > incarnations. He described what he saw and I told him who was who and

> > a little about them. One of the forms he saw was a radiant man with

> > white clothes riding a white horse on a dusty road. I told him he was

> > Kalki and he hadn't come yet.

> > > > >

> > > > > * * *

> > > > >

> > > > > This boy is usually playful, easy-going and smiling. But, when I

> > was with him one morning, I saw him lost in some serious thought. This

> > was abou a week after the episode mentioned in the above mail.

> > > > >

> > > > > I asked what he was thinking. He said, " it is not that the

> > future that is to come has not already happened. It has already

> > happened in reality, but it will happen later when the time comes. You

> > know what I mean? " I guessed what he was getting at, but pretended not

> > to know. I said, " no. What do you mean? "

> > > > >

> > > > > He said, " I don't know how to say what I am thinking. " This boy

> > is not known to be overly intelligent or articulate. His main

> > characteristic is that he is usually cheerful, playful, sweet, kind,

> > contented and relaxed. However, he was onto something today. But he

> > could not express himself.

> > > > >

> > > > > I helped him, " do you mean to say that future has already

> > happened at some level, but will reveal itself to people later? Kind

> > of like a movie. A movie may have been shot and become ready in a

> > studio. Some people may have already seen it. But people seeing it on

> > the screen later will think it is happening in front of them. Are you

> > saying something like that? "

> > > > >

> > > > > He exclaimed, " exactly. That is what I am saying. If something

> > is going to happen in future, it will happen when future comes. But

> > somebody may be able to see it before future comes, because it has

> > already happened. "

> > > > >

> > > > > Though he did not mention it, I knew why he was thinking along

> > these lines. When I told him the man riding the horse in his vision

> > over the fire was Kalki and he was yet to come, he was probably

> > confused. Given his age and ability to think and understand things,

> > this probably seemed like an oddity to him that he should see somebody

> > who had not yet come. So he was trying to think how it was possible

> > and came to some important conclusions about " time " in his own way.

> > > > >

> > > > > Time seems linear at the level of regular consciousness.

> > However, in many planes of conssciousness, the concept of time becomes

> > changed. It even loses its meaning when one is established in non-dual

> > Aatman or Brahman or Self.

> > > > >

> > > > > * * *

> > > > >

> > > > > The same boy once performed a very short Kaali homam with a

> > small naama mantra of Dakshina Kaali with beejaakshara added before

> > name. When we were meditating after poornaahuti, I felt a very intense

> > and powerful energy. It was quite different from the energy I feel

> > normally. This intense energy made my mind feel satisfied and blissful

> > and a feeling that can be loosely expressed in words as " I am done

> > here. I have nothing more left to do. Time to leave " filled my entire

> > consciousnss.

> > > > >

> > > > > I had experienced the same kind of intense energy twice before

> > that. Once I experienced the same energy when I was meditating sitting

> > next to my guru Manish who was doing a Chandi homam in India. Second

> > time was when I had an unexpected opportunity to meditate inside the

> > garbhaalaya of a famous temple, standing within 3 feet from the main

> > Kaali idol there, which was sanctified and worshipped by a great saint

> > in the past. The energy I felt was the same on all the three

> > occasions. At no other time did I feel that intense shakti.

> > > > >

> > > > > Interestingly, after we finished meditation and opened eyes,

> > that boy remarked, " out of all the different homas I did so far, this

> > is the bestest homam. " I asked him why. He said, " I don't know how to

> > say it, but it just felt awesome and different. "

> > > > >

> > > > > * * *

> > > > >

> > > > > This boy performed a really simple and short procedure, shorter

> > than what I give in manuals. But it seemed like he was successful in

> > making a powerful energy manifest there. The bottomline is that

> > internal purity is the most important thing.

> > > > >

> > > > > Rituals help purify one and purity helps one do a ritual better

> > and get more out of it. It is an egg and chicken problem and one has

> > to keep doing it until one breaks through.

> > > > >

> > > > > Keep performing your chosen spiritual practices, but do pay

> > attention to internal purity as you engage in external practices. The

> > only worthwhile measure of spiritual progress and purity is how

> > smaller your ego becomes. As ego becomes smaller, you can resist

> > attraction to external things better and you can resist internal

> > enemies like lust, anger, jealosy etc better. You can do your dharma

> > better. Ego - thinking that this is " I " and this is " mine " - is the

> > root cause of all problems.

> > > > >

> > > > > * * *

> > > > >

> > > > > Overcoming ego using jnaana yoga is relatively challenging, but

> > bhakti yoga is easier. Think that all that is around you - including

> > your house, money, cars, spouse, children and your own body - is god's

> > property and that you are a temporary caretaker of all of these

> > properties of god. Do the best job you can, but without entertaining

> > the notion " this is mine " . A faithful servant takes very good care of

> > his master's properties, but without thinking of all those things as

> > his or her belongings.

> > > > >

> > > > > Realize that thinking of things as " mine " is not necessary for

> > taking good care of them. A servant who loves one's master takes the

> > best care of things entrusted to one. When a thing is taken away, a

> > servant does not waste time worrying and crying. A servant will accept

> > that is master's property and can be taken away anytime. This enables

> > one to do the best job with what one possesses and not worry about

> > what one does not possess or what is out of one's control.

> > > > >

> > > > > Developing the attitude of a servant who takes care of master's

> > properties will help one wade the ocean of worldly life without

> > getting caught and overcome ego.

> > > > >

> > > > > Best regards,

> > > > > Narasimha

> > > > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -

> > > > > Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ homam

> > > > > Do Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ tarpana

> > > > > Spirituality: http://groups. / group/vedic- wisdom

> > > > > Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro. home.comcast. net

> > > > > Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAst rologer.org

> > > > > Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagan nath.org

> > > > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -

> > > > >

> > > > > ICC World Twenty20 England & #39;09 exclusively on ! CRICKET

> > http://cricket.

> > > >

> > >

> >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

namaste everybody,

 

the thought that the future is already present / in the present / past / in the

past is a very interesting thought indeed. it is there in some of our ancient

books also (particular reference to the stories in yoga vashista like those of

Lila or Shukracharya (?)...or stories where u travel in time and space to come

back to the same square one).

 

maybe there are many dimensions in space and time as our modern physics talks

of...or as vijyaji said, future may have already happened.

 

if time is maya / born of dualism then absence of time or stillness of time must

be of the absolute. now if our little boy in the event which narasimha ji

described could have glimpsed the absolute / the avatars of vishnu, then surely

time would have stood still...the future merged with the present.

 

as to where free will comes into this, my 2 paisa on this, borne out of flight

of fantasy is that the only thing we can do is act. the more we act out of free

will, awareness, the more free we become. the more we act out of compulsion /

vasanayas, the more tightly destiny binds us. destiny is nothing but reduced

degrees of freedom to act with consciousness.

 

so if we are to overcome destiny we should always act with awareness / excercise

free will.

 

but i know this is mere theorising...for the sake of discussion???!!!

 

 

 

, " utpal pathak " <vedic_pathak wrote:

>

> Namaste Rafal and Nalini Bahen and other members,

>

> Yesterday i wrote in somewhat unusual mood. I know it's a highly controversial

statement and very difficult to prove or explain.

>

> Somehow i have come to some kind of abstract understanding that even the thing

which we call 'free will' is also pre-ordained. the famous example of 'Goat tied

up with a pole' by thakur, wonderful explanations by Narasimha and many other

explanations by earlier philosophical thinkers in relation to free will and

destiny are not to be disputed here. they all seem true, however, personally

I've a unexplainable feeling that in the ultimate analysis, all the show is

*completely* dictated.

>

> I wish to write a bit, not for the sake of empty arguments for proving my

point (actually i have no strong point here as my thinking is not baked by sound

logic).

> ***Nalini bahen said that some souls have free will to take the rebirth and so

on. i would say that here that their wish on account of *their own free will* is

also exactly dictated by Supreme power.

>

> *Rafal questioned by stating examples of Prashna chart by Harihara and

dharma-sastra by Bruhaspati. i would say that that also is ordained to happen

exactly the way it happened. Prashna chart of a moment gives the idea of action

done till that point which will dictate future life. my foolish, childish

blabbering says that the karma till that moment had been pre-ordained and the

future is also DONE. Hari hara writing prashna maarga, content of writing, use

of the paper and pen, sitting direction, thoughts while writing, my typing on my

pc, your reactions and everything else has actually no free will.

>

> Finally what I wish to say is that " Free will is also Fixed Will "

>

> Everything,-every damn thing, is ordered by 'Durgaa Bhagavati Bhadra yayedam

dharyate jagat " .

>

> But all these are written with some intellectual understanding and not

realization. As narasimha Garu often says, in the realm of Maya, nobody can be

sure of anything.

>

> Dear members, including my Guru - please ignore me and also forgive me if it

was in a bad taste, ridiculous and senseless.

>

> Yours,

>

> Utpal

>

>

>

>

> , nalini swamy <nalini2818@> wrote:

> >

> > Dear Utpal Bhai , Rajarshi ji and all,

> >

> > Namaskar.

> > I think free will is also a part of Divine Will being orchestrated. The

extent of free will is to realise that Divine Will is all that prevails and

matters and once you * realise* that is freewill, nothing else but unequivocal

submission to Divine Will  matters.

> > As The Mother said in one of her teachings that the human 'soul' ( some of

them I think) has the free will to choose to take birth in particular mother's

 womb and have experiences in  certain realms. When the experiences manifest the

human being is unaware that it their own free will that *opted* for those

experiences and blames others for it, 'why me' syndrome as I would prefer to

call it. It is what you have asked for.... It takes a lot of realisation to

unravel the mystery... maybe some thousands of lives when it dawns that free

will is what the Divine  Will and submit to *it* fully and unconditionally.. It

may seem fatalistic, ambivalent but it can help accept the fact that nobody else

is to be blamed but your * action* with attachment as Narasimha ji would call

it, is responsible for what you experience.

> > My two cents,

> > Nalini

> >  

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > ________________________________

> > utpal pathak <vedic_pathak@>

> >

> > Wednesday, 1 July, 2009 6:21:54 AM

> > Re: Freewill.

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > Namaste Vijay and Rajarshi

> >

> > >But, does he already know how I will excersize it)?

> > >

> >

> > I liked your analogy of multiple versions of a movie however my

understanding is that there is nothing called Free will in truest sense.

everything is pre-ordined. anything and everything is shoot in advance. even if

multiple versions are recorded, which version is actually going to be played is

also fixed. it is all FIXED.

> >

> > bestest regards,

> >

> > utpal

> >

> > , " Vijaya Kumara Lakshmi Narayana Rao

Pingali " <pvklnrao@ .> wrote:

> > >

> > > Dear Rajesh,

> > >

> > > Good question!

> > >

> > > You may be very true when you said Freewill may not be what we think

freewill to be.

> > >

> > > I remembered some dialogues of Oracle in Matrix reloaded. (She says, you

already made a choice. It is just that you need to realise your choice).

> > >

> > > Our problem is that we try to assume only one of the contradicting things

are possible.

> > >

> > > Looking at analogy presented by Narasimha, future may indeed may have

happened. How ever, who said there can only be one future?

> > > There may be multiple versions of the same movie (one for US, one for

India, one for Tamil, one for Telugu etc.). Our freewill may let us decide which

movie you are going to see.

> > >

> > > A learned person may know what will happen if you use our free will in a

specific know.

> > >

> > > The eventual question now is can a saintly person foresee with confidence

of how I will excersize my freewill (he can perhaps foresee what will happen if

I choose to excersize my freewill in a particular way. But, does he already know

how I will excersize it)?

> > >

> > > Best regards,

> > > Vijay

> > > , rajarshi nandy <rajarshi14@ >

wrote:

> > > >

> > > > Namaste Narasimhaji

> > > >  

> > > > No doubt a wonderful and inspiring mail for all of us, however, I could

not help it that an inevitable question popped up in my mind. One of the oft

discussed and eternal questions.

> > > >  

> > > > If events have already been created like in a movie and later as time

unfolds, they happen in our plane of existence, then all talk of freewill must

be humbug? Like a placebo that makes us " happy " but in reality does not exist!

> > > >  

> > > >  

> > > > I am not questioning that what you wrote in the mail about events having

already happened, because same has been said by other great spiritual people in

the world.

> > > >  

> > > > But my question is because I cannot reconcile this with a freewill. Both

cannot be correct. It is either this or that.

> > > >  

> > > > Theoritically speaking, say tomorrow suddenly majority of the world

reforms itself, does a self correction exercise and brings in peace, harmony etc

etc, then why should the Kalki Avatar still incarnate? But then if the Kalki

Avatar has to incarnate - as our texts say - then such a self correcting option

is already negated out.

> > > >  

> > > > Well, theoritically, in a very large viewpoint no one has any choice in

the sense that finally everyone will end up merging with the divine.

> > > >  

> > > > So I guess freewill is not really as free as we love to think.

> > > >  

> > > > -Regards

> > > >  Rajarshi

> > > >

> > > > The upsurge (of consciousness) is Bhairava - Shiva Sutra

> > > >

> > > > --- On Tue, 30/6/09, Narasimha PVR Rao <pvr@> wrote:

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > Narasimha PVR Rao <pvr@>

> > > > Miscellany: Future, bestest homam, purity and

overcoming ego

> > > >

> > > > Tuesday, 30 June, 2009, 6:01 AM

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > Namaste,

> > > >

> > > > I mentioned an episode of a small boy who did a very short Chandi homam

and saw Vishnu's ten incarnations above the fire in the following mail:

> > > >

> > > > http://groups. / group/vedic- wisdom/message/ 761

> > > >

> > > > This boy was born and brought up in US and is not proficient in his

knowledge of Hinduism. He did not know much about some of the ten incarnations.

He described what he saw and I told him who was who and a little about them. One

of the forms he saw was a radiant man with white clothes riding a white horse on

a dusty road. I told him he was Kalki and he hadn't come yet.

> > > >

> > > > * * *

> > > >

> > > > This boy is usually playful, easy-going and smiling. But, when I was

with him one morning, I saw him lost in some serious thought. This was abou a

week after the episode mentioned in the above mail.

> > > >

> > > > I asked what he was thinking. He said, " it is not that the future that

is to come has not already happened. It has already happened in reality, but it

will happen later when the time comes. You know what I mean? " I guessed what he

was getting at, but pretended not to know. I said, " no. What do you mean? "

> > > >

> > > > He said, " I don't know how to say what I am thinking. " This boy is not

known to be overly intelligent or articulate. His main characteristic is that he

is usually cheerful, playful, sweet, kind, contented and relaxed. However, he

was onto something today. But he could not express himself.

> > > >

> > > > I helped him, " do you mean to say that future has already happened at

some level, but will reveal itself to people later? Kind of like a movie. A

movie may have been shot and become ready in a studio. Some people may have

already seen it. But people seeing it on the screen later will think it is

happening in front of them. Are you saying something like that? "

> > > >

> > > > He exclaimed, " exactly. That is what I am saying. If something is going

to happen in future, it will happen when future comes. But somebody may be able

to see it before future comes, because it has already happened. "

> > > >

> > > > Though he did not mention it, I knew why he was thinking along these

lines. When I told him the man riding the horse in his vision over the fire was

Kalki and he was yet to come, he was probably confused. Given his age and

ability to think and understand things, this probably seemed like an oddity to

him that he should see somebody who had not yet come. So he was trying to think

how it was possible and came to some important conclusions about " time " in his

own way.

> > > >

> > > > Time seems linear at the level of regular consciousness. However, in

many planes of conssciousness, the concept of time becomes changed. It even

loses its meaning when one is established in non-dual Aatman or Brahman or Self.

> > > >

> > > > * * *

> > > >

> > > > The same boy once performed a very short Kaali homam with a small naama

mantra of Dakshina Kaali with beejaakshara added before name. When we were

meditating after poornaahuti, I felt a very intense and powerful energy. It was

quite different from the energy I feel normally. This intense energy made my

mind feel satisfied and blissful and a feeling that can be loosely expressed in

words as " I am done here. I have nothing more left to do. Time to leave " filled

my entire consciousnss.

> > > >

> > > > I had experienced the same kind of intense energy twice before that.

Once I experienced the same energy when I was meditating sitting next to my guru

Manish who was doing a Chandi homam in India. Second time was when I had an

unexpected opportunity to meditate inside the garbhaalaya of a famous temple,

standing within 3 feet from the main Kaali idol there, which was sanctified and

worshipped by a great saint in the past. The energy I felt was the same on all

the three occasions. At no other time did I feel that intense shakti.

> > > >

> > > > Interestingly, after we finished meditation and opened eyes, that boy

remarked, " out of all the different homas I did so far, this is the bestest

homam. " I asked him why. He said, " I don't know how to say it, but it just felt

awesome and different. "

> > > >

> > > > * * *

> > > >

> > > > This boy performed a really simple and short procedure, shorter than

what I give in manuals. But it seemed like he was successful in making a

powerful energy manifest there. The bottomline is that internal purity is the

most important thing.

> > > >

> > > > Rituals help purify one and purity helps one do a ritual better and get

more out of it. It is an egg and chicken problem and one has to keep doing it

until one breaks through.

> > > >

> > > > Keep performing your chosen spiritual practices, but do pay attention to

internal purity as you engage in external practices. The only worthwhile measure

of spiritual progress and purity is how smaller your ego becomes. As ego becomes

smaller, you can resist attraction to external things better and you can resist

internal enemies like lust, anger, jealosy etc better. You can do your dharma

better. Ego - thinking that this is " I " and this is " mine " - is the root cause

of all problems.

> > > >

> > > > * * *

> > > >

> > > > Overcoming ego using jnaana yoga is relatively challenging, but bhakti

yoga is easier. Think that all that is around you - including your house, money,

cars, spouse, children and your own body - is god's property and that you are a

temporary caretaker of all of these properties of god. Do the best job you can,

but without entertaining the notion " this is mine " . A faithful servant takes

very good care of his master's properties, but without thinking of all those

things as his or her belongings.

> > > >

> > > > Realize that thinking of things as " mine " is not necessary for taking

good care of them. A servant who loves one's master takes the best care of

things entrusted to one. When a thing is taken away, a servant does not waste

time worrying and crying. A servant will accept that is master's property and

can be taken away anytime. This enables one to do the best job with what one

possesses and not worry about what one does not possess or what is out of one's

control.

> > > >

> > > > Developing the attitude of a servant who takes care of master's

properties will help one wade the ocean of worldly life without getting caught

and overcome ego.

> > > >

> > > > Best regards,

> > > > Narasimha

> > > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -

> > > > Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ homam

> > > > Do Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ tarpana

> > > > Spirituality: http://groups. / group/vedic- wisdom

> > > > Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro. home.comcast. net

> > > > Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAst rologer.org

> > > > Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagan nath.org

> > > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -

> > > >

> > > > ICC World Twenty20 England & #39;09 exclusively on ! CRICKET

http://cricket.

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Namaste,

 

> But my question is because I cannot reconcile this with freewill.

> Both cannot be correct. It is either this or that.

 

Both are correct, but at different levels. I will elaborate. However, this is philosophically complex and those who do not follow what I say should not worry at all.

 

* * *

 

Non-dual self has no division of self into various objects or space or time. There is no concept of time or space or space-time continuum within non-dual self. A yogi absorbed in non-dual self has no sense of space or time or objectification.

 

Supreme cosmic being is the link between duality and non-duality. Supreme cosmic being arising in this non-dual self captures the entire field of duality within Him. All beings, entire space and all space-time continua within the field of duality exist within Him. From the perspective of supreme cosmic being, all beings of the dual world are His parts and all their individual wills are parts of His cosmic will. As all space-time continua are within Him, there is nothing that is unknown to Him. Past, present and future; here, there and everywhere; I, you and others, this possibility, that possibility and yet another possibility - all are accessible and fully "known" to His self-awareness.

 

Now, let us come lower and into the field of duality. The field of duality consists of infinite divisions of space, time and space-time continua. There are infinite possibilities within this field.

 

Normally, people stuck deeply within duality have a linear sense of time and perceive just a part of one space-time continuum. However, field of duality also contains planes of consciousness where different senses of time and different space-time continua (that may intersect at various points) exist. A yogi who experiences such a space-time continuum in such a plane of consciousness may experience a point of time that maps to a future time in a regular space-time continuum being experienced by you. Also, what is 1 minute in one space-time continuum may be 1 year in another space-time continuum. Time is not as straight-forward an entity as one may think. Basically, the field of duality contains infinite space-time continua and what one experiences depends on the plane of consciousness that one's self-awareness (Kundalini) is in. But, most of us experience part of a specific space-time continuum and hence think that that is the only reality. But relaity consists of infinite space-time continua that intersect each other. These are all different possibilities and you chart out your course based on your actions and Nature's reactions to your actions.

 

* * *

 

From the perspective of a yogi who is in a different space-time continuum, your state may be known at a time that is in "future" as per the space-time continuum in which you exist. But, from the perspective of the space-time continuum that you are in, your state at that future time is not yet known and depends on your current action.

 

If a yogi in a different space-time continuum has seen your state in future, his observation is merely an observation and from his reference frame. It has no causal relationship to your current action or your future state. He is merely an observer and he does not cause anything to happen. His observation is specific to some space-time pairs and does not cover all the space-time pairs that you will traverse as you travel to reach the space-time pair where he observed you (if at all you do!).

 

* * *

 

Let us go further. Is there only one future possible for you? Or, does the path traversed by you in space-time continuum not fixed but variable based on your actions? Can your actions at important cross-roads alter the course you traverse?

 

If so, what is the meaning of a yogi observing you at a space-time pair? Is his observation only a possibility or a certainty? One may say "how can one observe a possibility? Anything we observe must be a certainty." But is that correct? Aren't the field of duality and the infinite space-time continua contained in it merely a set of infinite possibilities?

 

Some great rishis can see not just a space-time pair, but many space-time continua at the same time, i.e. they can see various possibilities based on various possible actions. However, visions seen by most yogis about "future" are just one possibility.

 

* * *

 

Bottomline: At the level at which we exist, there is certainly something called "freewill". Within the limits imposed by the reactions given by nature to your own previous actions, you do have a scope for engaging in different actions at this time. Depending on which action you engage in, the future can be slightly different. Some actions can even make the future significantly different. A rishi may be able to chart out a significant portion of the field of possibilities for future (e.g. like a brilliant chess player figuring out most possibilities upto 20 moves from now). An advanced yogi may be able to see a few possibilities for future (e.g. like a good chess player figuring out a few moves or guessing a future position). But the supreme cosmic being knows the entire field of possibilities, as they all exist within Him.

 

However, your actions are what bring to fruition (w.r.t. the reference frame of your consciousness!) some of those possibilities. One may know all the possibilities quite deeply and even guess the possibility that will come to fruition, but it is your actions that actually make some of those possibilities a reality.

 

Best regards,NarasimhaDo a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAstrologer.org/homamDo Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAstrologer.org/tarpanaSpirituality: Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro.home.comcast.netFree Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAstrologer.orgSri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagannath.org

 

-

rajarshi nandy

Tuesday, June 30, 2009 5:22 AM

Re: Freewill.

 

 

 

 

Namaste Narasimhaji

 

No doubt a wonderful and inspiring mail for all of us, however, I could not help it that an inevitable question popped up in my mind. One of the oft discussed and eternal questions.

 

If events have already been created like in a movie and later as time unfolds, they happen in our plane of existence, then all talk of freewill must be humbug? Like a placebo that makes us "happy" but in reality does not exist!

 

I am not questioning that what you wrote in the mail about events having already happened, because same has been said by other great spiritual people in the world.

 

But my question is because I cannot reconcile this with a freewill. Both cannot be correct. It is either this or that.

 

Theoritically speaking, say tomorrow suddenly majority of the world reforms itself, does a self correction exercise and brings in peace, harmony etc etc, then why should the Kalki Avatar still incarnate? But then if the Kalki Avatar has to incarnate - as our texts say - then such a self correcting option is already negated out.

 

Well, theoritically, in a very large viewpoint no one has any choice in the sense that finally everyone will end up merging with the divine.

 

So I guess freewill is not really as free as we love to think.

 

-Regards

Rajarshi

 

 

The upsurge (of consciousness) is Bhairava - Shiva Sutra--- On Tue, 30/6/09, Narasimha PVR Rao <pvr wrote:

Narasimha PVR Rao <pvr Miscellany: Future, bestest homam, purity and overcoming ego Date: Tuesday, 30 June, 2009, 6:01 AM

 

 

Namaste,I mentioned an episode of a small boy who did a very short Chandi homam and saw Vishnu's ten incarnations above the fire in the following mail:http://groups. / group/vedic- wisdom/message/ 761This boy was born and brought up in US and is not proficient in his knowledge of Hinduism. He did not know much about some of the ten incarnations. He described what he saw and I told him who was who and a little about them. One of the forms he saw was a radiant man with white clothes riding a white horse on a dusty road. I told him he was Kalki and he hadn't come yet.* * *This boy is usually playful, easy-going and smiling. But, when I was with him one morning, I saw him lost in some serious thought. This was abou a week after the episode mentioned in the above mail.I asked what he was thinking. He said, "it is not that the future that is to come has not already happened. It has already happened in reality, but it will happen later when the time comes. You know what I mean?" I guessed what he was getting at, but pretended not to know. I said, "no. What do you mean?"He said, "I don't know how to say what I am thinking." This boy is not known to be overly intelligent or articulate. His main characteristic is that he is usually cheerful, playful, sweet, kind, contented and relaxed. However, he was onto something today. But he could not express himself.I helped him, "do you mean to say that future has already happened at some level, but will reveal itself to people later? Kind of like a movie. A movie may have been shot and become ready in a studio. Some people may have already seen it. But people seeing it on the screen later will think it is happening in front of them. Are you saying something like that?"He exclaimed, "exactly. That is what I am saying. If something is going to happen in future, it will happen when future comes. But somebody may be able to see it before future comes, because it has already happened."Though he did not mention it, I knew why he was thinking along these lines. When I told him the man riding the horse in his vision over the fire was Kalki and he was yet to come, he was probably confused. Given his age and ability to think and understand things, this probably seemed like an oddity to him that he should see somebody who had not yet come. So he was trying to think how it was possible and came to some important conclusions about "time" in his own way.Time seems linear at the level of regular consciousness. However, in many planes of conssciousness, the concept of time becomes changed. It even loses its meaning when one is established in non-dual Aatman or Brahman or Self.* * *The same boy once performed a very short Kaali homam with a small naama mantra of Dakshina Kaali with beejaakshara added before name. When we were meditating after poornaahuti, I felt a very intense and powerful energy. It was quite different from the energy I feel normally. This intense energy made my mind feel satisfied and blissful and a feeling that can be loosely expressed in words as "I am done here. I have nothing more left to do. Time to leave" filled my entire consciousnss.I had experienced the same kind of intense energy twice before that. Once I experienced the same energy when I was meditating sitting next to my guru Manish who was doing a Chandi homam in India. Second time was when I had an unexpected opportunity to meditate inside the garbhaalaya of a famous temple, standing within 3 feet from the main Kaali idol there, which was sanctified and worshipped by a great saint in the past. The energy I felt was the same on all the three occasions. At no other time did I feel that intense shakti.Interestingly, after we finished meditation and opened eyes, that boy remarked, "out of all the different homas I did so far, this is the bestest homam." I asked him why. He said, "I don't know how to say it, but it just felt awesome and different."* * *This boy performed a really simple and short procedure, shorter than what I give in manuals. But it seemed like he was successful in making a powerful energy manifest there. The bottomline is that internal purity is the most important thing.Rituals help purify one and purity helps one do a ritual better and get more out of it. It is an egg and chicken problem and one has to keep doing it until one breaks through.Keep performing your chosen spiritual practices, but do pay attention to internal purity as you engage in external practices. The only worthwhile measure of spiritual progress and purity is how smaller your ego becomes. As ego becomes smaller, you can resist attraction to external things better and you can resist internal enemies like lust, anger, jealosy etc better. You can do your dharma better. Ego - thinking that this is "I" and this is "mine" - is the root cause of all problems.* * *Overcoming ego using jnaana yoga is relatively challenging, but bhakti yoga is easier. Think that all that is around you - including your house, money, cars, spouse, children and your own body - is god's property and that you are a temporary caretaker of all of these properties of god. Do the best job you can, but without entertaining the notion "this is mine". A faithful servant takes very good care of his master's properties, but without thinking of all those things as his or her belongings.Realize that thinking of things as "mine" is not necessary for taking good care of them. A servant who loves one's master takes the best care of things entrusted to one. When a thing is taken away, a servant does not waste time worrying and crying. A servant will accept that is master's property and can be taken away anytime. This enables one to do the best job with what one possesses and not worry about what one does not possess or what is out of one's control.Developing the attitude of a servant who takes care of master's properties will help one wade the ocean of worldly life without getting caught and overcome ego.Best regards,Narasimha------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ homamDo Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ tarpanaSpirituality: http://groups. / group/vedic- wisdomFree Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro. home.comcast. netFree Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAst rologer.orgSri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagan nath.org------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -

[Guest guest]

Namaste Narasimha garu,

 

There are few things from your message which i am trying to link for clearly

understanding this puzzel of free/fix will.

 

1) >there is nothing that is unknown to Him. Past, present and future; >here,

there and everywhere; I, you and others, this possibility, >that possibility and

yet another possibility - all are accessible >and fully " known " to His

self-awareness.

 

2)> Bottomline: At the level at which we exist, there is certainly >something

called " freewill " . Within the limits imposed by the >reactions given by nature

to your own previous actions, you do have >a scope for engaging in different

actions at this time.

 

The above are main two points if understood and linked can give clarity.

 

you have brought to me a very FRESH Knowledge that most of Yogi's can find out

one or two possibilities of future depending upon the space-time cycle zone in

which their consciouness can access. a really advance yogi can see more

possibilities of future events due to their access of more time cycles. BUT

please explain to me about the supreme cosmic being who is a sole link between

Dual and Non-dual self. now as you have mentioned (pl. refer to no.1 above) he

is all knower so every possibility is known to him and not only every

possibility but even every action going to be taken in a perticular Space-time

zone and what the eventual result. we call him by

Naraayana/Shiva/Bhagavati/GOD/Allah/Ganapati (As per Atharvashirsh) and many

such names depending on our faiths.

 

The point no.1 indicates that HE is all knower and point no.2 indicates that

Free will is certainly there at our Spac-time level. Now if ONE BEING knows

everything including EXACT action and EXACT REACTION, then would it be really

called free will ULTIMATELY? i know that it can be argued that HE ONLY KNOWS but

DOES NOT INTERFEAR and hence Free will exist but then what is the meaning of the

verses in the context of the topic...

" Mohyante Mohitaashchaiv Mohameshyanti chaapare... "

" Mamatvagartetimahaandhakaare Vibhraamayatyetadativ Vishvam "

" Tannatra vismay kaaryo yoganidra jagatpate

Mahaamaayaa Hareshchaishaa tayaa sammohyate jagat "

 

" ....Mrigtrushna bhramayati " of Gita

 

please forgive me for wiritng all these things but it is very difficult for me

to really reconcile and i think you are the only help for me.

 

Warm Regards,

 

Utpal

 

, " Narasimha P.V.R. Rao " <pvr wrote:

>

> Namaste,

>

> > But my question is because I cannot reconcile this with freewill.

> > Both cannot be correct. It is either this or that.

>

> Both are correct, but at different levels. I will elaborate. However, this is

philosophically complex and those who do not follow what I say should not worry

at all.

>

> * * *

>

> Non-dual self has no division of self into various objects or space or time.

There is no concept of time or space or space-time continuum within non-dual

self. A yogi absorbed in non-dual self has no sense of space or time or

objectification.

>

> Supreme cosmic being is the link between duality and non-duality. Supreme

cosmic being arising in this non-dual self captures the entire field of duality

within Him. All beings, entire space and all space-time continua within the

field of duality exist within Him. From the perspective of supreme cosmic being,

all beings of the dual world are His parts and all their individual wills are

parts of His cosmic will. As all space-time continua are within Him, there is

nothing that is unknown to Him. Past, present and future; here, there and

everywhere; I, you and others, this possibility, that possibility and yet

another possibility - all are accessible and fully " known " to His

self-awareness.

>

> Now, let us come lower and into the field of duality. The field of duality

consists of infinite divisions of space, time and space-time continua. There are

infinite possibilities within this field.

>

> Normally, people stuck deeply within duality have a linear sense of time and

perceive just a part of one space-time continuum. However, field of duality also

contains planes of consciousness where different senses of time and different

space-time continua (that may intersect at various points) exist. A yogi who

experiences such a space-time continuum in such a plane of consciousness may

experience a point of time that maps to a future time in a regular space-time

continuum being experienced by you. Also, what is 1 minute in one space-time

continuum may be 1 year in another space-time continuum. Time is not as

straight-forward an entity as one may think. Basically, the field of duality

contains infinite space-time continua and what one experiences depends on the

plane of consciousness that one's self-awareness (Kundalini) is in. But, most of

us experience part of a specific space-time continuum and hence think that that

is the only reality. But relaity consists of infinite space-time continua that

intersect each other. These are all different possibilities and you chart out

your course based on your actions and Nature's reactions to your actions.

>

> * * *

>

> From the perspective of a yogi who is in a different space-time continuum,

your state may be known at a time that is in " future " as per the space-time

continuum in which you exist. But, from the perspective of the space-time

continuum that you are in, your state at that future time is not yet known and

depends on your current action.

>

> If a yogi in a different space-time continuum has seen your state in future,

his observation is merely an observation and from his reference frame. It has no

causal relationship to your current action or your future state. He is merely an

observer and he does not cause anything to happen. His observation is specific

to some space-time pairs and does not cover all the space-time pairs that you

will traverse as you travel to reach the space-time pair where he observed you

(if at all you do!).

>

> * * *

>

> Let us go further. Is there only one future possible for you? Or, does the

path traversed by you in space-time continuum not fixed but variable based on

your actions? Can your actions at important cross-roads alter the course you

traverse?

>

> If so, what is the meaning of a yogi observing you at a space-time pair? Is

his observation only a possibility or a certainty? One may say " how can one

observe a possibility? Anything we observe must be a certainty. " But is that

correct? Aren't the field of duality and the infinite space-time continua

contained in it merely a set of infinite possibilities?

>

> Some great rishis can see not just a space-time pair, but many space-time

continua at the same time, i.e. they can see various possibilities based on

various possible actions. However, visions seen by most yogis about " future " are

just one possibility.

>

> * * *

>

> Bottomline: At the level at which we exist, there is certainly something

called " freewill " . Within the limits imposed by the reactions given by nature to

your own previous actions, you do have a scope for engaging in different actions

at this time. Depending on which action you engage in, the future can be

slightly different. Some actions can even make the future significantly

different. A rishi may be able to chart out a significant portion of the field

of possibilities for future (e.g. like a brilliant chess player figuring out

most possibilities upto 20 moves from now). An advanced yogi may be able to see

a few possibilities for future (e.g. like a good chess player figuring out a few

moves or guessing a future position). But the supreme cosmic being knows the

entire field of possibilities, as they all exist within Him.

>

> However, your actions are what bring to fruition (w.r.t. the reference frame

of your consciousness!) some of those possibilities. One may know all the

possibilities quite deeply and even guess the possibility that will come to

fruition, but it is your actions that actually make some of those possibilities

a reality.

>

> Best regards,

> Narasimha

>

> Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAstrologer.org/homam

> Do Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAstrologer.org/tarpana

> Spirituality:

> Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro.home.comcast.net

> Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAstrologer.org

> Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagannath.org

>

>

> -

> rajarshi nandy

>

> Tuesday, June 30, 2009 5:22 AM

> Re: Freewill.

>

> Namaste Narasimhaji

>

> No doubt a wonderful and inspiring mail for all of us, however, I

could not help it that an inevitable question popped up in my mind. One of the

oft discussed and eternal questions.

>

> If events have already been created like in a movie and later as time

unfolds, they happen in our plane of existence, then all talk of freewill must

be humbug? Like a placebo that makes us " happy " but in reality does not exist!

>

> I am not questioning that what you wrote in the mail about events

having already happened, because same has been said by other great spiritual

people in the world.

>

> But my question is because I cannot reconcile this with a freewill.

Both cannot be correct. It is either this or that.

>

> Theoritically speaking, say tomorrow suddenly majority of the world

reforms itself, does a self correction exercise and brings in peace, harmony etc

etc, then why should the Kalki Avatar still incarnate? But then if the Kalki

Avatar has to incarnate - as our texts say - then such a self correcting option

is already negated out.

>

> Well, theoritically, in a very large viewpoint no one has any choice

in the sense that finally everyone will end up merging with the divine.

>

> So I guess freewill is not really as free as we love to think.

>

> -Regards

> Rajarshi

>

> The upsurge (of consciousness) is Bhairava - Shiva Sutra

>

> --- On Tue, 30/6/09, Narasimha PVR Rao <pvr wrote:

>

> Narasimha PVR Rao <pvr

> Miscellany: Future, bestest homam, purity

and overcoming ego

>

> Tuesday, 30 June, 2009, 6:01 AM

>

>

> Namaste,

>

> I mentioned an episode of a small boy who did a very short Chandi

homam and saw Vishnu's ten incarnations above the fire in the following mail:

>

> http://groups. / group/vedic- wisdom/message/ 761

>

> This boy was born and brought up in US and is not proficient in his

knowledge of Hinduism. He did not know much about some of the ten incarnations.

He described what he saw and I told him who was who and a little about them. One

of the forms he saw was a radiant man with white clothes riding a white horse on

a dusty road. I told him he was Kalki and he hadn't come yet.

>

> * * *

>

> This boy is usually playful, easy-going and smiling. But, when I was

with him one morning, I saw him lost in some serious thought. This was abou a

week after the episode mentioned in the above mail.

>

> I asked what he was thinking. He said, " it is not that the future

that is to come has not already happened. It has already happened in reality,

but it will happen later when the time comes. You know what I mean? " I guessed

what he was getting at, but pretended not to know. I said, " no. What do you

mean? "

>

> He said, " I don't know how to say what I am thinking. " This boy is

not known to be overly intelligent or articulate. His main characteristic is

that he is usually cheerful, playful, sweet, kind, contented and relaxed.

However, he was onto something today. But he could not express himself.

>

> I helped him, " do you mean to say that future has already happened

at some level, but will reveal itself to people later? Kind of like a movie. A

movie may have been shot and become ready in a studio. Some people may have

already seen it. But people seeing it on the screen later will think it is

happening in front of them. Are you saying something like that? "

>

> He exclaimed, " exactly. That is what I am saying. If something is

going to happen in future, it will happen when future comes. But somebody may be

able to see it before future comes, because it has already happened. "

>

> Though he did not mention it, I knew why he was thinking along these

lines. When I told him the man riding the horse in his vision over the fire was

Kalki and he was yet to come, he was probably confused. Given his age and

ability to think and understand things, this probably seemed like an oddity to

him that he should see somebody who had not yet come. So he was trying to think

how it was possible and came to some important conclusions about " time " in his

own way.

>

> Time seems linear at the level of regular consciousness. However, in

many planes of conssciousness, the concept of time becomes changed. It even

loses its meaning when one is established in non-dual Aatman or Brahman or Self.

>

> * * *

>

> The same boy once performed a very short Kaali homam with a small

naama mantra of Dakshina Kaali with beejaakshara added before name. When we were

meditating after poornaahuti, I felt a very intense and powerful energy. It was

quite different from the energy I feel normally. This intense energy made my

mind feel satisfied and blissful and a feeling that can be loosely expressed in

words as " I am done here. I have nothing more left to do. Time to leave " filled

my entire consciousnss.

>

> I had experienced the same kind of intense energy twice before that.

Once I experienced the same energy when I was meditating sitting next to my guru

Manish who was doing a Chandi homam in India. Second time was when I had an

unexpected opportunity to meditate inside the garbhaalaya of a famous temple,

standing within 3 feet from the main Kaali idol there, which was sanctified and

worshipped by a great saint in the past. The energy I felt was the same on all

the three occasions. At no other time did I feel that intense shakti.

>

> Interestingly, after we finished meditation and opened eyes, that

boy remarked, " out of all the different homas I did so far, this is the bestest

homam. " I asked him why. He said, " I don't know how to say it, but it just felt

awesome and different. "

>

> * * *

>

> This boy performed a really simple and short procedure, shorter than

what I give in manuals. But it seemed like he was successful in making a

powerful energy manifest there. The bottomline is that internal purity is the

most important thing.

>

> Rituals help purify one and purity helps one do a ritual better and

get more out of it. It is an egg and chicken problem and one has to keep doing

it until one breaks through.

>

> Keep performing your chosen spiritual practices, but do pay

attention to internal purity as you engage in external practices. The only

worthwhile measure of spiritual progress and purity is how smaller your ego

becomes. As ego becomes smaller, you can resist attraction to external things

better and you can resist internal enemies like lust, anger, jealosy etc better.

You can do your dharma better. Ego - thinking that this is " I " and this is

" mine " - is the root cause of all problems.

>

> * * *

>

> Overcoming ego using jnaana yoga is relatively challenging, but

bhakti yoga is easier. Think that all that is around you - including your house,

money, cars, spouse, children and your own body - is god's property and that you

are a temporary caretaker of all of these properties of god. Do the best job you

can, but without entertaining the notion " this is mine " . A faithful servant

takes very good care of his master's properties, but without thinking of all

those things as his or her belongings.

>

> Realize that thinking of things as " mine " is not necessary for

taking good care of them. A servant who loves one's master takes the best care

of things entrusted to one. When a thing is taken away, a servant does not waste

time worrying and crying. A servant will accept that is master's property and

can be taken away anytime. This enables one to do the best job with what one

possesses and not worry about what one does not possess or what is out of one's

control.

>

> Developing the attitude of a servant who takes care of master's

properties will help one wade the ocean of worldly life without getting caught

and overcome ego.

>

> Best regards,

> Narasimha

> ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -

> Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ homam

> Do Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ tarpana

> Spirituality: http://groups. / group/vedic- wisdom

> Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro. home.comcast. net

> Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAst rologer.org

> Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagan nath.org

> ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -

>

[Guest guest]

Dear Utpalji

 

Now if ONE BEING knows everything including EXACT action and EXACT REACTION, then would it be really called free will ULTIMATELY? i know that it can be argued that HE ONLY KNOWS but DOES NOT INTERFEAR and hence Free will exist but then what is the meaning of the verses in the context of the topic...

 

Years ago I had read an awesome book called "Mr Thompkins in Wonderland" by George Gamow (he had won the Nobel Prize in physics).

 

There, using a fictional character named Thompkins, George Gamow explains how our "common sense" and basic understanding of things would go for a toss if there is even a slight change in the nth decimal place of any of the standard universal constants, like the charge of an electron. What is the common sense understanding, but one gained from observation of life uptill the age of say 18!

 

Something moving at an extremely fast pace does not observe space-time as you or I do. Inside an atom there is not a well defined path for a electron to revolve around. but merely clouds of probability ! Which means what someone can say at best is the probability of finding an electron at a certain distance from the nucleus, only a probability.

 

And all these have been derived from hardcore mathematical process. Not just speculations.

 

After reading Narasimhaji's mail I realized the problem arises because of the structure of our commonsense at this reference frame. That is why when we are here, this theoritical problem arises, but say you become the supreme being, the problem itself does not exist.

 

There are a set of particles called Tachyons which move at speeds greater than that of light and whole of cause and effect gets reversed for them. That is, the effect precedes the cause in a universe where the things happen faster than the speed of light. In such a place one would probably get the results of an exam even before one appears for the exam!

 

So this idea of linear cause followed by effect makes sense only here, and this cannot be superimposed on other frames of reference, where the question itself may breakdown.Thus the idea of God having fixed everything may not make any sense to God, but creates a lot of theoritical confusion for us.

 

I am not sure if I have been able to convey what I was trying, I just made an attempt.

 

-Regards

Rajarshi

 

 

 

 

 

The upsurge (of consciousness) is Bhairava - Shiva Sutra--- On Thu, 2/7/09, utpal pathak <vedic_pathak wrote:

utpal pathak <vedic_pathak Re: Freewill. Date: Thursday, 2 July, 2009, 11:49 AM

 

 

Namaste Narasimha garu,There are few things from your message which i am trying to link for clearly understanding this puzzel of free/fix will.1) >there is nothing that is unknown to Him. Past, present and future; >here, there and everywhere; I, you and others, this possibility, >that possibility and yet another possibility - all are accessible >and fully "known" to His self-awareness.2)> Bottomline: At the level at which we exist, there is certainly >something called "freewill". Within the limits imposed by the >reactions given by nature to your own previous actions, you do have >a scope for engaging in different actions at this time.The above are main two points if understood and linked can give clarity.you have brought to me a very FRESH Knowledge that most of Yogi's can find out one or two possibilities of future depending upon the space-time cycle zone in which their consciouness

can access. a really advance yogi can see more possibilities of future events due to their access of more time cycles. BUT please explain to me about the supreme cosmic being who is a sole link between Dual and Non-dual self. now as you have mentioned (pl. refer to no.1 above) he is all knower so every possibility is known to him and not only every possibility but even every action going to be taken in a perticular Space-time zone and what the eventual result. we call him by Naraayana/Shiva/ Bhagavati/ GOD/Allah/ Ganapati (As per Atharvashirsh) and many such names depending on our faiths. The point no.1 indicates that HE is all knower and point no.2 indicates that Free will is certainly there at our Spac-time level. Now if ONE BEING knows everything including EXACT action and EXACT REACTION, then would it be really called free will ULTIMATELY? i know that it can be argued that HE ONLY KNOWS but DOES NOT INTERFEAR and hence Free will exist but

then what is the meaning of the verses in the context of the topic..."Mohyante Mohitaashchaiv Mohameshyanti chaapare...""Mamatvagartetimaha andhakaare Vibhraamayatyetadat iv Vishvam""Tannatra vismay kaaryo yoganidra jagatpateMahaamaayaa Hareshchaishaa tayaa sammohyate jagat""....Mrigtrushna bhramayati" of Gitaplease forgive me for wiritng all these things but it is very difficult for me to really reconcile and i think you are the only help for me.Warm Regards,Utpal, "Narasimha P.V.R. Rao" <pvr wrote:>> Namaste,> > > But my question is because I cannot reconcile this with freewill.> > Both cannot be correct. It is either this or that.> >

Both are correct, but at different levels. I will elaborate. However, this is philosophically complex and those who do not follow what I say should not worry at all.> > * * *> > Non-dual self has no division of self into various objects or space or time. There is no concept of time or space or space-time continuum within non-dual self. A yogi absorbed in non-dual self has no sense of space or time or objectification.> > Supreme cosmic being is the link between duality and non-duality. Supreme cosmic being arising in this non-dual self captures the entire field of duality within Him. All beings, entire space and all space-time continua within the field of duality exist within Him. From the perspective of supreme cosmic being, all beings of the dual world are His parts and all their individual wills are parts of His cosmic will. As all space-time continua are within Him, there is nothing that is unknown to Him.

Past, present and future; here, there and everywhere; I, you and others, this possibility, that possibility and yet another possibility - all are accessible and fully "known" to His self-awareness.> > Now, let us come lower and into the field of duality. The field of duality consists of infinite divisions of space, time and space-time continua. There are infinite possibilities within this field.> > Normally, people stuck deeply within duality have a linear sense of time and perceive just a part of one space-time continuum. However, field of duality also contains planes of consciousness where different senses of time and different space-time continua (that may intersect at various points) exist. A yogi who experiences such a space-time continuum in such a plane of consciousness may experience a point of time that maps to a future time in a regular space-time continuum being experienced by you. Also, what is 1 minute in one

space-time continuum may be 1 year in another space-time continuum. Time is not as straight-forward an entity as one may think. Basically, the field of duality contains infinite space-time continua and what one experiences depends on the plane of consciousness that one's self-awareness (Kundalini) is in. But, most of us experience part of a specific space-time continuum and hence think that that is the only reality. But relaity consists of infinite space-time continua that intersect each other. These are all different possibilities and you chart out your course based on your actions and Nature's reactions to your actions.> > * * *> > From the perspective of a yogi who is in a different space-time continuum, your state may be known at a time that is in "future" as per the space-time continuum in which you exist. But, from the perspective of the space-time continuum that you are in, your state at that future time is not yet

known and depends on your current action.> > If a yogi in a different space-time continuum has seen your state in future, his observation is merely an observation and from his reference frame. It has no causal relationship to your current action or your future state. He is merely an observer and he does not cause anything to happen. His observation is specific to some space-time pairs and does not cover all the space-time pairs that you will traverse as you travel to reach the space-time pair where he observed you (if at all you do!).> > * * *> > Let us go further. Is there only one future possible for you? Or, does the path traversed by you in space-time continuum not fixed but variable based on your actions? Can your actions at important cross-roads alter the course you traverse?> > If so, what is the meaning of a yogi observing you at a space-time pair? Is his observation only a possibility or a

certainty? One may say "how can one observe a possibility? Anything we observe must be a certainty." But is that correct? Aren't the field of duality and the infinite space-time continua contained in it merely a set of infinite possibilities?> > Some great rishis can see not just a space-time pair, but many space-time continua at the same time, i.e. they can see various possibilities based on various possible actions. However, visions seen by most yogis about "future" are just one possibility.> > * * *> > Bottomline: At the level at which we exist, there is certainly something called "freewill". Within the limits imposed by the reactions given by nature to your own previous actions, you do have a scope for engaging in different actions at this time. Depending on which action you engage in, the future can be slightly different. Some actions can even make the future significantly different. A rishi may be able to

chart out a significant portion of the field of possibilities for future (e.g. like a brilliant chess player figuring out most possibilities upto 20 moves from now). An advanced yogi may be able to see a few possibilities for future (e.g. like a good chess player figuring out a few moves or guessing a future position). But the supreme cosmic being knows the entire field of possibilities, as they all exist within Him.> > However, your actions are what bring to fruition (w.r.t. the reference frame of your consciousness! ) some of those possibilities. One may know all the possibilities quite deeply and even guess the possibility that will come to fruition, but it is your actions that actually make some of those possibilities a reality.> > Best regards,> Narasimha> ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -> Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ homam> Do Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ tarpana> Spirituality: http://groups. / group/vedic- wisdom> Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro. home.comcast. net> Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAst rologer.org> Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagan nath.org> ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- - > > - > rajarshi nandy

> > Tuesday, June 30, 2009 5:22 AM> Re: Freewill.> > Namaste Narasimhaji> > No doubt a wonderful and inspiring mail for all of us, however, I could not help it that an inevitable question popped up in my mind. One of the oft discussed and eternal questions.> > If events have already been created like in a movie and later as time unfolds, they happen in our plane of existence, then all talk of freewill must be humbug? Like a placebo that makes us "happy" but in reality does not exist!> > I am not questioning that what you wrote in the mail about events having already happened, because same has been said by other great spiritual people in the world.

> > But my question is because I cannot reconcile this with a freewill. Both cannot be correct. It is either this or that.> > Theoritically speaking, say tomorrow suddenly majority of the world reforms itself, does a self correction exercise and brings in peace, harmony etc etc, then why should the Kalki Avatar still incarnate? But then if the Kalki Avatar has to incarnate - as our texts say - then such a self correcting option is already negated out.> > Well, theoritically, in a very large viewpoint no one has any choice in the sense that finally everyone will end up merging with the divine.> > So I guess freewill is not really as free as we love to think.> > -Regards> Rajarshi> > The upsurge (of consciousness) is Bhairava - Shiva Sutra> > --- On Tue, 30/6/09, Narasimha PVR Rao <pvr wrote:> > Narasimha PVR Rao

<pvr> Miscellany: Future, bestest homam, purity and overcoming ego> > Tuesday, 30 June, 2009, 6:01 AM> > > Namaste,> > I mentioned an episode of a small boy who did a very short Chandi homam and saw Vishnu's ten incarnations above the fire in the following mail:> > http://groups. / group/vedic- wisdom/message/ 761> > This boy was born and brought up in US and is not proficient in his knowledge of Hinduism. He did not know much about some of the ten incarnations. He described what he saw and I told him who was who and a little about them. One of the forms he saw was a

radiant man with white clothes riding a white horse on a dusty road. I told him he was Kalki and he hadn't come yet.> > * * *> > This boy is usually playful, easy-going and smiling. But, when I was with him one morning, I saw him lost in some serious thought. This was abou a week after the episode mentioned in the above mail.> > I asked what he was thinking. He said, "it is not that the future that is to come has not already happened. It has already happened in reality, but it will happen later when the time comes. You know what I mean?" I guessed what he was getting at, but pretended not to know. I said, "no. What do you mean?"> > He said, "I don't know how to say what I am thinking." This boy is not known to be overly intelligent or articulate. His main characteristic is that he is usually cheerful, playful, sweet, kind, contented and relaxed. However, he was onto something today. But he could

not express himself.> > I helped him, "do you mean to say that future has already happened at some level, but will reveal itself to people later? Kind of like a movie. A movie may have been shot and become ready in a studio. Some people may have already seen it. But people seeing it on the screen later will think it is happening in front of them. Are you saying something like that?"> > He exclaimed, "exactly. That is what I am saying. If something is going to happen in future, it will happen when future comes. But somebody may be able to see it before future comes, because it has already happened."> > Though he did not mention it, I knew why he was thinking along these lines. When I told him the man riding the horse in his vision over the fire was Kalki and he was yet to come, he was probably confused. Given his age and ability to think and understand things, this probably seemed like an oddity to him that he

should see somebody who had not yet come. So he was trying to think how it was possible and came to some important conclusions about "time" in his own way.> > Time seems linear at the level of regular consciousness. However, in many planes of conssciousness, the concept of time becomes changed. It even loses its meaning when one is established in non-dual Aatman or Brahman or Self.> > * * *> > The same boy once performed a very short Kaali homam with a small naama mantra of Dakshina Kaali with beejaakshara added before name. When we were meditating after poornaahuti, I felt a very intense and powerful energy. It was quite different from the energy I feel normally. This intense energy made my mind feel satisfied and blissful and a feeling that can be loosely expressed in words as "I am done here. I have nothing more left to do. Time to leave" filled my entire consciousnss.> > I had experienced the

same kind of intense energy twice before that. Once I experienced the same energy when I was meditating sitting next to my guru Manish who was doing a Chandi homam in India. Second time was when I had an unexpected opportunity to meditate inside the garbhaalaya of a famous temple, standing within 3 feet from the main Kaali idol there, which was sanctified and worshipped by a great saint in the past. The energy I felt was the same on all the three occasions. At no other time did I feel that intense shakti.> > Interestingly, after we finished meditation and opened eyes, that boy remarked, "out of all the different homas I did so far, this is the bestest homam." I asked him why. He said, "I don't know how to say it, but it just felt awesome and different."> > * * *> > This boy performed a really simple and short procedure, shorter than what I give in manuals. But it seemed like he was successful in making a

powerful energy manifest there. The bottomline is that internal purity is the most important thing.> > Rituals help purify one and purity helps one do a ritual better and get more out of it. It is an egg and chicken problem and one has to keep doing it until one breaks through.> > Keep performing your chosen spiritual practices, but do pay attention to internal purity as you engage in external practices. The only worthwhile measure of spiritual progress and purity is how smaller your ego becomes. As ego becomes smaller, you can resist attraction to external things better and you can resist internal enemies like lust, anger, jealosy etc better. You can do your dharma better. Ego - thinking that this is "I" and this is "mine" - is the root cause of all problems.> > * * *> > Overcoming ego using jnaana yoga is relatively challenging, but bhakti yoga is easier. Think that all that is around you -

including your house, money, cars, spouse, children and your own body - is god's property and that you are a temporary caretaker of all of these properties of god. Do the best job you can, but without entertaining the notion "this is mine". A faithful servant takes very good care of his master's properties, but without thinking of all those things as his or her belongings.> > Realize that thinking of things as "mine" is not necessary for taking good care of them. A servant who loves one's master takes the best care of things entrusted to one. When a thing is taken away, a servant does not waste time worrying and crying. A servant will accept that is master's property and can be taken away anytime. This enables one to do the best job with what one possesses and not worry about what one does not possess or what is out of one's control.> > Developing the attitude of a servant who takes care of master's properties will help one

wade the ocean of worldly life without getting caught and overcome ego.> > Best regards,> Narasimha> ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -> Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ homam> Do Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ tarpana> Spirituality: http://groups. / group/vedic- wisdom> Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro. home.comcast. net> Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAst rologer.org> Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagan nath.org> ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- ->

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[Guest guest]

Fantastic mail with excellent, clear analogies! The examples you gave made lots of sense.

 

The upsurge (of consciousness) is Bhairava - Shiva Sutra--- On Thu, 2/7/09, Narasimha P.V.R. Rao <pvr wrote:

Narasimha P.V.R. Rao <pvr Re: Freewill. Date: Thursday, 2 July, 2009, 8:01 AM

 

 

 

Namaste,

 

> But my question is because I cannot reconcile this with freewill.

> Both cannot be correct. It is either this or that.

 

Both are correct, but at different levels. I will elaborate. However, this is philosophically complex and those who do not follow what I say should not worry at all.

 

* * *

 

Non-dual self has no division of self into various objects or space or time. There is no concept of time or space or space-time continuum within non-dual self. A yogi absorbed in non-dual self has no sense of space or time or objectification.

 

Supreme cosmic being is the link between duality and non-duality. Supreme cosmic being arising in this non-dual self captures the entire field of duality within Him. All beings, entire space and all space-time continua within the field of duality exist within Him. From the perspective of supreme cosmic being, all beings of the dual world are His parts and all their individual wills are parts of His cosmic will. As all space-time continua are within Him, there is nothing that is unknown to Him. Past, present and future; here, there and everywhere; I, you and others, this possibility, that possibility and yet another possibility - all are accessible and fully "known" to His self-awareness.

 

Now, let us come lower and into the field of duality. The field of duality consists of infinite divisions of space, time and space-time continua. There are infinite possibilities within this field.

 

Normally, people stuck deeply within duality have a linear sense of time and perceive just a part of one space-time continuum. However, field of duality also contains planes of consciousness where different senses of time and different space-time continua (that may intersect at various points) exist. A yogi who experiences such a space-time continuum in such a plane of consciousness may experience a point of time that maps to a future time in a regular space-time continuum being experienced by you. Also, what is 1 minute in one space-time continuum may be 1 year in another space-time continuum. Time is not as straight-forward an entity as one may think. Basically, the field of duality contains infinite space-time continua and what one experiences depends on the plane of consciousness that one's self-awareness (Kundalini) is in. But, most of us experience part of a specific

space-time continuum and hence think that that is the only reality. But relaity consists of infinite space-time continua that intersect each other. These are all different possibilities and you chart out your course based on your actions and Nature's reactions to your actions.

 

* * *

 

From the perspective of a yogi who is in a different space-time continuum, your state may be known at a time that is in "future" as per the space-time continuum in which you exist. But, from the perspective of the space-time continuum that you are in, your state at that future time is not yet known and depends on your current action.

 

If a yogi in a different space-time continuum has seen your state in future, his observation is merely an observation and from his reference frame. It has no causal relationship to your current action or your future state. He is merely an observer and he does not cause anything to happen. His observation is specific to some space-time pairs and does not cover all the space-time pairs that you will traverse as you travel to reach the space-time pair where he observed you (if at all you do!).

 

* * *

 

Let us go further. Is there only one future possible for you? Or, does the path traversed by you in space-time continuum not fixed but variable based on your actions? Can your actions at important cross-roads alter the course you traverse?

 

If so, what is the meaning of a yogi observing you at a space-time pair? Is his observation only a possibility or a certainty? One may say "how can one observe a possibility? Anything we observe must be a certainty." But is that correct? Aren't the field of duality and the infinite space-time continua contained in it merely a set of infinite possibilities?

 

Some great rishis can see not just a space-time pair, but many space-time continua at the same time, i.e. they can see various possibilities based on various possible actions. However, visions seen by most yogis about "future" are just one possibility.

 

* * *

 

Bottomline: At the level at which we exist, there is certainly something called "freewill". Within the limits imposed by the reactions given by nature to your own previous actions, you do have a scope for engaging in different actions at this time. Depending on which action you engage in, the future can be slightly different. Some actions can even make the future significantly different. A rishi may be able to chart out a significant portion of the field of possibilities for future (e.g. like a brilliant chess player figuring out most possibilities upto 20 moves from now). An advanced yogi may be able to see a few possibilities for future (e.g. like a good chess player figuring out a few moves or guessing a future position). But the supreme cosmic being knows the entire field of possibilities, as they all exist within Him.

 

However, your actions are what bring to fruition (w.r.t. the reference frame of your consciousness! ) some of those possibilities. One may know all the possibilities quite deeply and even guess the possibility that will come to fruition, but it is your actions that actually make some of those possibilities a reality.

 

Best regards,Narasimha------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- ---------Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ homamDo Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ tarpanaSpirituality: http://groups. / group/vedic- wisdomFree Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro. home.comcast. netFree Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAst rologer.orgSri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagan nath.org------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- ---------

 

-

rajarshi nandy

 

Tuesday, June 30, 2009 5:22 AM

Re: Freewill.

 

 

 

 

Namaste Narasimhaji

 

No doubt a wonderful and inspiring mail for all of us, however, I could not help it that an inevitable question popped up in my mind. One of the oft discussed and eternal questions.

 

If events have already been created like in a movie and later as time unfolds, they happen in our plane of existence, then all talk of freewill must be humbug? Like a placebo that makes us "happy" but in reality does not exist!

 

I am not questioning that what you wrote in the mail about events having already happened, because same has been said by other great spiritual people in the world.

 

But my question is because I cannot reconcile this with a freewill. Both cannot be correct. It is either this or that.

 

Theoritically speaking, say tomorrow suddenly majority of the world reforms itself, does a self correction exercise and brings in peace, harmony etc etc, then why should the Kalki Avatar still incarnate? But then if the Kalki Avatar has to incarnate - as our texts say - then such a self correcting option is already negated out.

 

Well, theoritically, in a very large viewpoint no one has any choice in the sense that finally everyone will end up merging with the divine.

 

So I guess freewill is not really as free as we love to think.

 

-Regards

Rajarshi

 

 

The upsurge (of consciousness) is Bhairava - Shiva Sutra--- On Tue, 30/6/09, Narasimha PVR Rao <pvr (AT) charter (DOT) net> wrote:

Narasimha PVR Rao <pvr (AT) charter (DOT) net> Miscellany: Future, bestest homam, purity and overcoming egoTuesday, 30 June, 2009, 6:01 AM

 

 

Namaste,I mentioned an episode of a small boy who did a very short Chandi homam and saw Vishnu's ten incarnations above the fire in the following mail:http://groups. / group/vedic- wisdom/message/ 761This boy was born and brought up in US and is not proficient in his knowledge of Hinduism. He did not know much about some of the ten incarnations. He described what he saw and I told him who was who and a little about them. One of the forms he saw was a radiant man with white clothes riding a white horse on a dusty road. I told him he was Kalki and he hadn't come yet.* * *This boy is usually playful, easy-going and smiling. But, when I was with him one morning, I saw him lost in some serious thought. This was abou a week after the episode mentioned in the above mail.I asked what he was thinking. He

said, "it is not that the future that is to come has not already happened. It has already happened in reality, but it will happen later when the time comes. You know what I mean?" I guessed what he was getting at, but pretended not to know. I said, "no. What do you mean?"He said, "I don't know how to say what I am thinking." This boy is not known to be overly intelligent or articulate. His main characteristic is that he is usually cheerful, playful, sweet, kind, contented and relaxed. However, he was onto something today. But he could not express himself.I helped him, "do you mean to say that future has already happened at some level, but will reveal itself to people later? Kind of like a movie. A movie may have been shot and become ready in a studio. Some people may have already seen it. But people seeing it on the screen later will think it is happening in front of them. Are you saying something like that?"He exclaimed,

"exactly. That is what I am saying. If something is going to happen in future, it will happen when future comes. But somebody may be able to see it before future comes, because it has already happened."Though he did not mention it, I knew why he was thinking along these lines. When I told him the man riding the horse in his vision over the fire was Kalki and he was yet to come, he was probably confused. Given his age and ability to think and understand things, this probably seemed like an oddity to him that he should see somebody who had not yet come. So he was trying to think how it was possible and came to some important conclusions about "time" in his own way.Time seems linear at the level of regular consciousness. However, in many planes of conssciousness, the concept of time becomes changed. It even loses its meaning when one is established in non-dual Aatman or Brahman or Self.* * *The same boy once performed a very

short Kaali homam with a small naama mantra of Dakshina Kaali with beejaakshara added before name. When we were meditating after poornaahuti, I felt a very intense and powerful energy. It was quite different from the energy I feel normally. This intense energy made my mind feel satisfied and blissful and a feeling that can be loosely expressed in words as "I am done here. I have nothing more left to do. Time to leave" filled my entire consciousnss.I had experienced the same kind of intense energy twice before that. Once I experienced the same energy when I was meditating sitting next to my guru Manish who was doing a Chandi homam in India. Second time was when I had an unexpected opportunity to meditate inside the garbhaalaya of a famous temple, standing within 3 feet from the main Kaali idol there, which was sanctified and worshipped by a great saint in the past. The energy I felt was the same on all the three occasions. At no other time did I

feel that intense shakti.Interestingly, after we finished meditation and opened eyes, that boy remarked, "out of all the different homas I did so far, this is the bestest homam." I asked him why. He said, "I don't know how to say it, but it just felt awesome and different."* * *This boy performed a really simple and short procedure, shorter than what I give in manuals. But it seemed like he was successful in making a powerful energy manifest there. The bottomline is that internal purity is the most important thing.Rituals help purify one and purity helps one do a ritual better and get more out of it. It is an egg and chicken problem and one has to keep doing it until one breaks through.Keep performing your chosen spiritual practices, but do pay attention to internal purity as you engage in external practices. The only worthwhile measure of spiritual progress and purity is how smaller your ego becomes. As ego

becomes smaller, you can resist attraction to external things better and you can resist internal enemies like lust, anger, jealosy etc better. You can do your dharma better. Ego - thinking that this is "I" and this is "mine" - is the root cause of all problems.* * *Overcoming ego using jnaana yoga is relatively challenging, but bhakti yoga is easier. Think that all that is around you - including your house, money, cars, spouse, children and your own body - is god's property and that you are a temporary caretaker of all of these properties of god. Do the best job you can, but without entertaining the notion "this is mine". A faithful servant takes very good care of his master's properties, but without thinking of all those things as his or her belongings.Realize that thinking of things as "mine" is not necessary for taking good care of them. A servant who loves one's master takes the best care of things entrusted to one. When a

thing is taken away, a servant does not waste time worrying and crying. A servant will accept that is master's property and can be taken away anytime. This enables one to do the best job with what one possesses and not worry about what one does not possess or what is out of one's control.Developing the attitude of a servant who takes care of master's properties will help one wade the ocean of worldly life without getting caught and overcome ego.Best regards,Narasimha------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ homamDo Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ tarpanaSpirituality: http://groups. / group/vedic- wisdomFree Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro. home.comcast. netFree Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAst rologer.orgSri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagan nath.org------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -

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[Guest guest]

Namaste Rajarshi,

 

Thank you for you explanation and admire your knowledge. Yes if one can travel

faster than speed of light, he/she/it can create a great confusion at our

reference. i.e. as you said result will be before exam.

 

>Thus the idea of God having fixed everything may not make any sense >to God,

but creates a lot of theoritical confusion for us.

 

GOD is never confused i guess but we are really (con)fused! (He is like

sitting on a top of mountain watching cars coming from both ends while we are

like drivers in the cars) and hence sometime we get in to such brain storming

activities. moreover our commonsense, logic and other unwanted garbage helps

adding more confusions and Some verse of Shastraas add spice in that.

 

big thank you for your response.

 

best regards,

 

Utpal

 

 

, rajarshi nandy <rajarshi14 wrote:

>

> Dear Utpalji

>  

> Now if ONE BEING knows everything including EXACT action and EXACT REACTION,

then would it be really called free will ULTIMATELY? i know that it can be

argued that HE ONLY KNOWS but DOES NOT INTERFEAR and hence Free will exist but

then what is the meaning of the verses in the context of the topic...

>  

> Years ago I had read an awesome book called " Mr Thompkins in Wonderland " by

George Gamow (he had won the Nobel Prize in physics).

>  

> There, using a fictional character named Thompkins, George Gamow explains how

our " common sense " and basic understanding of things would go for a toss if

there is even a slight change in the nth decimal place of any of the standard

universal constants, like the charge of an electron. What is the common sense

understanding, but one gained from observation of life uptill the age of say 18!

>  

> Something moving at an extremely fast pace does not observe space-time as you

or I do. Inside an atom there is not a well defined path for a electron to

revolve around. but merely clouds of probability ! Which means what someone can

say at best is the probability of finding an electron at a certain distance from

the nucleus, only a probability.

>  

> And all these have been derived from hardcore mathematical process. Not just

speculations.

>  

> After reading Narasimhaji's mail I realized the problem arises because of the

structure of our commonsense at this reference frame. That is why when we are

here, this theoritical problem arises, but say you become the supreme being, the

problem itself does not exist.

>  

> There are a set of particles called Tachyons which move at speeds greater than

that of light and whole of cause and effect gets reversed for them. That is, the

effect precedes the cause in a universe where the things happen faster than the

speed of light. In such a place one would probably get the results of an exam

even before one appears for the exam!

>  

> So this idea of linear cause followed by effect makes sense only here, and

this cannot be superimposed on other frames of reference, where the question

itself may breakdown.Thus the idea of God having fixed everything may not make

any sense to God, but creates a lot of theoritical confusion for us.

>  

> I am not sure if I have been able to convey what I was trying, I just made an

attempt.

>  

> -Regards

>  Rajarshi

>  

>  

>  

>

>

>

>  

>

> The upsurge (of consciousness) is Bhairava - Shiva Sutra

>

> --- On Thu, 2/7/09, utpal pathak <vedic_pathak wrote:

>

>

> utpal pathak <vedic_pathak

> Re: Freewill.

>

> Thursday, 2 July, 2009, 11:49 AM

>

>

Namaste Narasimha garu,

>

> There are few things from your message which i am trying to link for clearly

understanding this puzzel of free/fix will.

>

> 1) >there is nothing that is unknown to Him. Past, present and future; >here,

there and everywhere; I, you and others, this possibility, >that possibility and

yet another possibility - all are accessible >and fully " known " to His

self-awareness.

>

> 2)> Bottomline: At the level at which we exist, there is certainly >something

called " freewill " . Within the limits imposed by the >reactions given by nature

to your own previous actions, you do have >a scope for engaging in different

actions at this time.

>

> The above are main two points if understood and linked can give clarity.

>

> you have brought to me a very FRESH Knowledge that most of Yogi's can find out

one or two possibilities of future depending upon the space-time cycle zone in

which their consciouness can access. a really advance yogi can see more

possibilities of future events due to their access of more time cycles. BUT

please explain to me about the supreme cosmic being who is a sole link between

Dual and Non-dual self. now as you have mentioned (pl. refer to no.1 above) he

is all knower so every possibility is known to him and not only every

possibility but even every action going to be taken in a perticular Space-time

zone and what the eventual result. we call him by Naraayana/Shiva/ Bhagavati/

GOD/Allah/ Ganapati (As per Atharvashirsh) and many such names depending on our

faiths.

>

> The point no.1 indicates that HE is all knower and point no.2 indicates that

Free will is certainly there at our Spac-time level. Now if ONE BEING knows

everything including EXACT action and EXACT REACTION, then would it be really

called free will ULTIMATELY? i know that it can be argued that HE ONLY KNOWS but

DOES NOT INTERFEAR and hence Free will exist but then what is the meaning of the

verses in the context of the topic...

> " Mohyante Mohitaashchaiv Mohameshyanti chaapare... "

> " Mamatvagartetimaha andhakaare Vibhraamayatyetadat iv Vishvam "

> " Tannatra vismay kaaryo yoganidra jagatpate

> Mahaamaayaa Hareshchaishaa tayaa sammohyate jagat "

>

> " ....Mrigtrushna bhramayati " of Gita

>

> please forgive me for wiritng all these things but it is very difficult for me

to really reconcile and i think you are the only help for me.

>

> Warm Regards,

>

> Utpal

>

> , " Narasimha P.V.R. Rao " <pvr@> wrote:

> >

> > Namaste,

> >

> > > But my question is because I cannot reconcile this with freewill.

> > > Both cannot be correct. It is either this or that.

> >

> > Both are correct, but at different levels. I will elaborate. However, this

is philosophically complex and those who do not follow what I say should not

worry at all.

> >

> > * * *

> >

> > Non-dual self has no division of self into various objects or space or time.

There is no concept of time or space or space-time continuum within non-dual

self. A yogi absorbed in non-dual self has no sense of space or time or

objectification.

> >

> > Supreme cosmic being is the link between duality and non-duality. Supreme

cosmic being arising in this non-dual self captures the entire field of duality

within Him. All beings, entire space and all space-time continua within the

field of duality exist within Him. From the perspective of supreme cosmic being,

all beings of the dual world are His parts and all their individual wills are

parts of His cosmic will. As all space-time continua are within Him, there is

nothing that is unknown to Him. Past, present and future; here, there and

everywhere; I, you and others, this possibility, that possibility and yet

another possibility - all are accessible and fully " known " to His

self-awareness.

> >

> > Now, let us come lower and into the field of duality. The field of duality

consists of infinite divisions of space, time and space-time continua. There are

infinite possibilities within this field.

> >

> > Normally, people stuck deeply within duality have a linear sense of time and

perceive just a part of one space-time continuum. However, field of duality also

contains planes of consciousness where different senses of time and different

space-time continua (that may intersect at various points) exist. A yogi who

experiences such a space-time continuum in such a plane of consciousness may

experience a point of time that maps to a future time in a regular space-time

continuum being experienced by you. Also, what is 1 minute in one space-time

continuum may be 1 year in another space-time continuum. Time is not as

straight-forward an entity as one may think. Basically, the field of duality

contains infinite space-time continua and what one experiences depends on the

plane of consciousness that one's self-awareness (Kundalini) is in. But, most of

us experience part of a specific space-time continuum and hence think that that

is the only reality. But relaity

> consists of infinite space-time continua that intersect each other. These are

all different possibilities and you chart out your course based on your actions

and Nature's reactions to your actions.

> >

> > * * *

> >

> > From the perspective of a yogi who is in a different space-time continuum,

your state may be known at a time that is in " future " as per the space-time

continuum in which you exist. But, from the perspective of the space-time

continuum that you are in, your state at that future time is not yet known and

depends on your current action.

> >

> > If a yogi in a different space-time continuum has seen your state in future,

his observation is merely an observation and from his reference frame. It has no

causal relationship to your current action or your future state. He is merely an

observer and he does not cause anything to happen. His observation is specific

to some space-time pairs and does not cover all the space-time pairs that you

will traverse as you travel to reach the space-time pair where he observed you

(if at all you do!).

> >

> > * * *

> >

> > Let us go further. Is there only one future possible for you? Or, does the

path traversed by you in space-time continuum not fixed but variable based on

your actions? Can your actions at important cross-roads alter the course you

traverse?

> >

> > If so, what is the meaning of a yogi observing you at a space-time pair? Is

his observation only a possibility or a certainty? One may say " how can one

observe a possibility? Anything we observe must be a certainty. " But is that

correct? Aren't the field of duality and the infinite space-time continua

contained in it merely a set of infinite possibilities?

> >

> > Some great rishis can see not just a space-time pair, but many space-time

continua at the same time, i.e. they can see various possibilities based on

various possible actions. However, visions seen by most yogis about " future " are

just one possibility.

> >

> > * * *

> >

> > Bottomline: At the level at which we exist, there is certainly something

called " freewill " . Within the limits imposed by the reactions given by nature to

your own previous actions, you do have a scope for engaging in different actions

at this time. Depending on which action you engage in, the future can be

slightly different. Some actions can even make the future significantly

different. A rishi may be able to chart out a significant portion of the field

of possibilities for future (e.g. like a brilliant chess player figuring out

most possibilities upto 20 moves from now). An advanced yogi may be able to see

a few possibilities for future (e.g. like a good chess player figuring out a few

moves or guessing a future position). But the supreme cosmic being knows the

entire field of possibilities, as they all exist within Him.

> >

> > However, your actions are what bring to fruition (w.r.t. the reference frame

of your consciousness! ) some of those possibilities. One may know all the

possibilities quite deeply and even guess the possibility that will come to

fruition, but it is your actions that actually make some of those possibilities

a reality.

> >

> > Best regards,

> > Narasimha

> > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -

> > Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ homam

> > Do Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ tarpana

> > Spirituality: http://groups. / group/vedic- wisdom

> > Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro. home.comcast. net

> > Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAst rologer.org

> > Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagan nath.org

> > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -

> >

> > -

> > rajarshi nandy

> >

> > Tuesday, June 30, 2009 5:22 AM

> > Re: Freewill.

> >

> > Namaste Narasimhaji

> >

> > No doubt a wonderful and inspiring mail for all of us, however, I could not

help it that an inevitable question popped up in my mind. One of the oft

discussed and eternal questions.

> >

> > If events have already been created like in a movie and later as time

unfolds, they happen in our plane of existence, then all talk of freewill must

be humbug? Like a placebo that makes us " happy " but in reality does not exist!

> >

> > I am not questioning that what you wrote in the mail about events having

already happened, because same has been said by other great spiritual people in

the world.

> >

> > But my question is because I cannot reconcile this with a freewill. Both

cannot be correct. It is either this or that.

> >

> > Theoritically speaking, say tomorrow suddenly majority of the world reforms

itself, does a self correction exercise and brings in peace, harmony etc etc,

then why should the Kalki Avatar still incarnate? But then if the Kalki Avatar

has to incarnate - as our texts say - then such a self correcting option is

already negated out.

> >

> > Well, theoritically, in a very large viewpoint no one has any choice in the

sense that finally everyone will end up merging with the divine.

> >

> > So I guess freewill is not really as free as we love to think.

> >

> > -Regards

> > Rajarshi

> >

> > The upsurge (of consciousness) is Bhairava - Shiva Sutra

> >

> > --- On Tue, 30/6/09, Narasimha PVR Rao <pvr@> wrote:

> >

> > Narasimha PVR Rao <pvr@>

> > Miscellany: Future, bestest homam, purity and

overcoming ego

> >

> > Tuesday, 30 June, 2009, 6:01 AM

> >

> >

> > Namaste,

> >

> > I mentioned an episode of a small boy who did a very short Chandi homam and

saw Vishnu's ten incarnations above the fire in the following mail:

> >

> > http://groups. / group/vedic- wisdom/message/ 761

> >

> > This boy was born and brought up in US and is not proficient in his

knowledge of Hinduism. He did not know much about some of the ten incarnations.

He described what he saw and I told him who was who and a little about them. One

of the forms he saw was a radiant man with white clothes riding a white horse on

a dusty road. I told him he was Kalki and he hadn't come yet.

> >

> > * * *

> >

> > This boy is usually playful, easy-going and smiling. But, when I was with

him one morning, I saw him lost in some serious thought. This was abou a week

after the episode mentioned in the above mail.

> >

> > I asked what he was thinking. He said, " it is not that the future that is to

come has not already happened. It has already happened in reality, but it will

happen later when the time comes. You know what I mean? " I guessed what he was

getting at, but pretended not to know. I said, " no. What do you mean? "

> >

> > He said, " I don't know how to say what I am thinking. " This boy is not known

to be overly intelligent or articulate. His main characteristic is that he is

usually cheerful, playful, sweet, kind, contented and relaxed. However, he was

onto something today. But he could not express himself.

> >

> > I helped him, " do you mean to say that future has already happened at some

level, but will reveal itself to people later? Kind of like a movie. A movie may

have been shot and become ready in a studio. Some people may have already seen

it. But people seeing it on the screen later will think it is happening in front

of them. Are you saying something like that? "

> >

> > He exclaimed, " exactly. That is what I am saying. If something is going to

happen in future, it will happen when future comes. But somebody may be able to

see it before future comes, because it has already happened. "

> >

> > Though he did not mention it, I knew why he was thinking along these lines.

When I told him the man riding the horse in his vision over the fire was Kalki

and he was yet to come, he was probably confused. Given his age and ability to

think and understand things, this probably seemed like an oddity to him that he

should see somebody who had not yet come. So he was trying to think how it was

possible and came to some important conclusions about " time " in his own way.

> >

> > Time seems linear at the level of regular consciousness. However, in many

planes of conssciousness, the concept of time becomes changed. It even loses its

meaning when one is established in non-dual Aatman or Brahman or Self.

> >

> > * * *

> >

> > The same boy once performed a very short Kaali homam with a small naama

mantra of Dakshina Kaali with beejaakshara added before name. When we were

meditating after poornaahuti, I felt a very intense and powerful energy. It was

quite different from the energy I feel normally. This intense energy made my

mind feel satisfied and blissful and a feeling that can be loosely expressed in

words as " I am done here. I have nothing more left to do. Time to leave " filled

my entire consciousnss.

> >

> > I had experienced the same kind of intense energy twice before that. Once I

experienced the same energy when I was meditating sitting next to my guru Manish

who was doing a Chandi homam in India. Second time was when I had an unexpected

opportunity to meditate inside the garbhaalaya of a famous temple, standing

within 3 feet from the main Kaali idol there, which was sanctified and

worshipped by a great saint in the past. The energy I felt was the same on all

the three occasions. At no other time did I feel that intense shakti.

> >

> > Interestingly, after we finished meditation and opened eyes, that boy

remarked, " out of all the different homas I did so far, this is the bestest

homam. " I asked him why. He said, " I don't know how to say it, but it just felt

awesome and different. "

> >

> > * * *

> >

> > This boy performed a really simple and short procedure, shorter than what I

give in manuals. But it seemed like he was successful in making a powerful

energy manifest there. The bottomline is that internal purity is the most

important thing.

> >

> > Rituals help purify one and purity helps one do a ritual better and get more

out of it. It is an egg and chicken problem and one has to keep doing it until

one breaks through.

> >

> > Keep performing your chosen spiritual practices, but do pay attention to

internal purity as you engage in external practices. The only worthwhile measure

of spiritual progress and purity is how smaller your ego becomes. As ego becomes

smaller, you can resist attraction to external things better and you can resist

internal enemies like lust, anger, jealosy etc better. You can do your dharma

better. Ego - thinking that this is " I " and this is " mine " - is the root cause

of all problems.

> >

> > * * *

> >

> > Overcoming ego using jnaana yoga is relatively challenging, but bhakti yoga

is easier. Think that all that is around you - including your house, money,

cars, spouse, children and your own body - is god's property and that you are a

temporary caretaker of all of these properties of god. Do the best job you can,

but without entertaining the notion " this is mine " . A faithful servant takes

very good care of his master's properties, but without thinking of all those

things as his or her belongings.

> >

> > Realize that thinking of things as " mine " is not necessary for taking good

care of them. A servant who loves one's master takes the best care of things

entrusted to one. When a thing is taken away, a servant does not waste time

worrying and crying. A servant will accept that is master's property and can be

taken away anytime. This enables one to do the best job with what one possesses

and not worry about what one does not possess or what is out of one's control.

> >

> > Developing the attitude of a servant who takes care of master's properties

will help one wade the ocean of worldly life without getting caught and overcome

ego.

> >

> > Best regards,

> > Narasimha

> > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -

> > Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ homam

> > Do Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ tarpana

> > Spirituality: http://groups. / group/vedic- wisdom

> > Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro. home.comcast. net

> > Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAst rologer.org

> > Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagan nath.org

> > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -

> >

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

recommends that you upgrade to the new and safer Internet

Explorer 8. http://downloads./in/internetexplorer/

>

[Guest guest]

Namaste Rajarshri ji,

Something moving at an extremely fast pace does not observe space-time as you or I do.

There are a set of particles called Tachyons which move at speeds greater than that of light and whole of cause and effect gets reversed for them.

So this idea of linear cause followed by effect makes sense only here, and this cannot be superimposed on other frames of reference, where the question itself may breakdown.

Wow, this is such a lovely mail.

Now carrying this forward in some kind of a fantasy world (of which one has no direct "real" experience)...is it that the grosser (impure) we are, the slower we move in respect to light (god?)? ...the more lighter (pure) we become, the more closer we could move in respect of light?...and then we can perhaps "jump" the space-time duality....the way the young boy jumped it while looking into the fire during homam?

karma / destiny applies only in a dualistic framework, isn't it?...or the time-space dimension that we presently live in?

As for free will ... is'nt there some relationship between this and quantum mechanics where if the position of the particle is "pinned down" the speed of the particle cannot be determined and vice versa??? So everything may not be fully determined / determinable?...and that is where free will kicks in???

 

 

 

 

, rajarshi nandy <rajarshi14 wrote:>> Dear Utpalji> > Now if ONE BEING knows everything including EXACT action and EXACT REACTION, then would it be really called free will ULTIMATELY? i know that it can be argued that HE ONLY KNOWS but DOES NOT INTERFEAR and hence Free will exist but then what is the meaning of the verses in the context of the topic...> > Years ago I had read an awesome book called "Mr Thompkins in Wonderland" by George Gamow (he had won the Nobel Prize in physics).> > There, using a fictional character named Thompkins, George Gamow explains how our "common sense" and basic understanding of things would go for a toss if there is even a slight change in the nth decimal place of any of the standard universal constants, like the charge of an electron. What is the common sense understanding, but one gained from observation of life uptill the age of say 18!> > Something moving at an extremely fast pace does not observe space-time as you or I do. Inside an atom there is not a well defined path for a electron to revolve around. but merely clouds of probability ! Which means what someone can say at best is the probability of finding an electron at a certain distance from the nucleus, only a probability.> > And all these have been derived from hardcore mathematical process. Not just speculations. > > After reading Narasimhaji's mail I realized the problem arises because of the structure of our commonsense at this reference frame. That is why when we are here, this theoritical problem arises, but say you become the supreme being, the problem itself does not exist. > > There are a set of particles called Tachyons which move at speeds greater than that of light and whole of cause and effect gets reversed for them. That is, the effect precedes the cause in a universe where the things happen faster than the speed of light. In such a place one would probably get the results of an exam even before one appears for the exam!> > So this idea of linear cause followed by effect makes sense only here, and this cannot be superimposed on other frames of reference, where the question itself may breakdown.Thus the idea of God having fixed everything may not make any sense to God, but creates a lot of theoritical confusion for us. > > I am not sure if I have been able to convey what I was trying, I just made an attempt.> > -Regards> Rajarshi> > > > > > > > > The upsurge (of consciousness) is Bhairava - Shiva Sutra> > --- On Thu, 2/7/09, utpal pathak vedic_pathak wrote:> > > utpal pathak vedic_pathak Re: Freewill.> > Thursday, 2 July, 2009, 11:49 AM> > > > > > > > > Namaste Narasimha garu,> > There are few things from your message which i am trying to link for clearly understanding this puzzel of free/fix will.> > 1) >there is nothing that is unknown to Him. Past, present and future; >here, there and everywhere; I, you and others, this possibility, >that possibility and yet another possibility - all are accessible >and fully "known" to His self-awareness.> > 2)> Bottomline: At the level at which we exist, there is certainly >something called "freewill". Within the limits imposed by the >reactions given by nature to your own previous actions, you do have >a scope for engaging in different actions at this time.> > The above are main two points if understood and linked can give clarity.> > you have brought to me a very FRESH Knowledge that most of Yogi's can find out one or two possibilities of future depending upon the space-time cycle zone in which their consciouness can access. a really advance yogi can see more possibilities of future events due to their access of more time cycles. BUT please explain to me about the supreme cosmic being who is a sole link between Dual and Non-dual self. now as you have mentioned (pl. refer to no.1 above) he is all knower so every possibility is known to him and not only every possibility but even every action going to be taken in a perticular Space-time zone and what the eventual result. we call him by Naraayana/Shiva/ Bhagavati/ GOD/Allah/ Ganapati (As per Atharvashirsh) and many such names depending on our faiths. > > The point no.1 indicates that HE is all knower and point no.2 indicates that Free will is certainly there at our Spac-time level. Now if ONE BEING knows everything including EXACT action and EXACT REACTION, then would it be really called free will ULTIMATELY? i know that it can be argued that HE ONLY KNOWS but DOES NOT INTERFEAR and hence Free will exist but then what is the meaning of the verses in the context of the topic...> "Mohyante Mohitaashchaiv Mohameshyanti chaapare..."> "Mamatvagartetimaha andhakaare Vibhraamayatyetadat iv Vishvam"> "Tannatra vismay kaaryo yoganidra jagatpate> Mahaamaayaa Hareshchaishaa tayaa sammohyate jagat"> > "....Mrigtrushna bhramayati" of Gita> > please forgive me for wiritng all these things but it is very difficult for me to really reconcile and i think you are the only help for me.> > Warm Regards,> > Utpal> > , "Narasimha P.V.R. Rao" pvr@ wrote:> >> > Namaste,> > > > > But my question is because I cannot reconcile this with freewill.> > > Both cannot be correct. It is either this or that.> > > > Both are correct, but at different levels. I will elaborate. However, this is philosophically complex and those who do not follow what I say should not worry at all.> > > > * * *> > > > Non-dual self has no division of self into various objects or space or time. There is no concept of time or space or space-time continuum within non-dual self. A yogi absorbed in non-dual self has no sense of space or time or objectification.> > > > Supreme cosmic being is the link between duality and non-duality. Supreme cosmic being arising in this non-dual self captures the entire field of duality within Him. All beings, entire space and all space-time continua within the field of duality exist within Him. From the perspective of supreme cosmic being, all beings of the dual world are His parts and all their individual wills are parts of His cosmic will. As all space-time continua are within Him, there is nothing that is unknown to Him. Past, present and future; here, there and everywhere; I, you and others, this possibility, that possibility and yet another possibility - all are accessible and fully "known" to His self-awareness.> > > > Now, let us come lower and into the field of duality. The field of duality consists of infinite divisions of space, time and space-time continua. There are infinite possibilities within this field.> > > > Normally, people stuck deeply within duality have a linear sense of time and perceive just a part of one space-time continuum. However, field of duality also contains planes of consciousness where different senses of time and different space-time continua (that may intersect at various points) exist. A yogi who experiences such a space-time continuum in such a plane of consciousness may experience a point of time that maps to a future time in a regular space-time continuum being experienced by you. Also, what is 1 minute in one space-time continuum may be 1 year in another space-time continuum. Time is not as straight-forward an entity as one may think. Basically, the field of duality contains infinite space-time continua and what one experiences depends on the plane of consciousness that one's self-awareness (Kundalini) is in. But, most of us experience part of a specific space-time continuum and hence think that that is the only reality. But relaity> consists of infinite space-time continua that intersect each other. These are all different possibilities and you chart out your course based on your actions and Nature's reactions to your actions.> > > > * * *> > > > From the perspective of a yogi who is in a different space-time continuum, your state may be known at a time that is in "future" as per the space-time continuum in which you exist. But, from the perspective of the space-time continuum that you are in, your state at that future time is not yet known and depends on your current action.> > > > If a yogi in a different space-time continuum has seen your state in future, his observation is merely an observation and from his reference frame. It has no causal relationship to your current action or your future state. He is merely an observer and he does not cause anything to happen. His observation is specific to some space-time pairs and does not cover all the space-time pairs that you will traverse as you travel to reach the space-time pair where he observed you (if at all you do!).> > > > * * *> > > > Let us go further. Is there only one future possible for you? Or, does the path traversed by you in space-time continuum not fixed but variable based on your actions? Can your actions at important cross-roads alter the course you traverse?> > > > If so, what is the meaning of a yogi observing you at a space-time pair? Is his observation only a possibility or a certainty? One may say "how can one observe a possibility? Anything we observe must be a certainty." But is that correct? Aren't the field of duality and the infinite space-time continua contained in it merely a set of infinite possibilities?> > > > Some great rishis can see not just a space-time pair, but many space-time continua at the same time, i.e. they can see various possibilities based on various possible actions. However, visions seen by most yogis about "future" are just one possibility.> > > > * * *> > > > Bottomline: At the level at which we exist, there is certainly something called "freewill". Within the limits imposed by the reactions given by nature to your own previous actions, you do have a scope for engaging in different actions at this time. Depending on which action you engage in, the future can be slightly different. Some actions can even make the future significantly different. A rishi may be able to chart out a significant portion of the field of possibilities for future (e.g. like a brilliant chess player figuring out most possibilities upto 20 moves from now). An advanced yogi may be able to see a few possibilities for future (e.g. like a good chess player figuring out a few moves or guessing a future position). But the supreme cosmic being knows the entire field of possibilities, as they all exist within Him.> > > > However, your actions are what bring to fruition (w.r.t. the reference frame of your consciousness! ) some of those possibilities. One may know all the possibilities quite deeply and even guess the possibility that will come to fruition, but it is your actions that actually make some of those possibilities a reality.> > > > Best regards,> > Narasimha> > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -> > Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ homam> > Do Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ tarpana> > Spirituality: http://groups. / group/vedic- wisdom> > Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro. home.comcast. net> > Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAst rologer.org> > Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagan nath.org> > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- - > > > > - > > rajarshi nandy > > > > Tuesday, June 30, 2009 5:22 AM> > Re: Freewill.> > > > Namaste Narasimhaji> > > > No doubt a wonderful and inspiring mail for all of us, however, I could not help it that an inevitable question popped up in my mind. One of the oft discussed and eternal questions.> > > > If events have already been created like in a movie and later as time unfolds, they happen in our plane of existence, then all talk of freewill must be humbug? Like a placebo that makes us "happy" but in reality does not exist!> > > > I am not questioning that what you wrote in the mail about events having already happened, because same has been said by other great spiritual people in the world. > > > > But my question is because I cannot reconcile this with a freewill. Both cannot be correct. It is either this or that.> > > > Theoritically speaking, say tomorrow suddenly majority of the world reforms itself, does a self correction exercise and brings in peace, harmony etc etc, then why should the Kalki Avatar still incarnate? But then if the Kalki Avatar has to incarnate - as our texts say - then such a self correcting option is already negated out.> > > > Well, theoritically, in a very large viewpoint no one has any choice in the sense that finally everyone will end up merging with the divine.> > > > So I guess freewill is not really as free as we love to think.> > > > -Regards> > Rajarshi> > > > The upsurge (of consciousness) is Bhairava - Shiva Sutra> > > > --- On Tue, 30/6/09, Narasimha PVR Rao pvr@ wrote:> > > > Narasimha PVR Rao pvr@> > Miscellany: Future, bestest homam, purity and overcoming ego> > > > Tuesday, 30 June, 2009, 6:01 AM> > > > > > Namaste,> > > > I mentioned an episode of a small boy who did a very short Chandi homam and saw Vishnu's ten incarnations above the fire in the following mail:> > > > http://groups. / group/vedic- wisdom/message/ 761> > > > This boy was born and brought up in US and is not proficient in his knowledge of Hinduism. He did not know much about some of the ten incarnations. He described what he saw and I told him who was who and a little about them. One of the forms he saw was a radiant man with white clothes riding a white horse on a dusty road. I told him he was Kalki and he hadn't come yet.> > > > * * *> > > > This boy is usually playful, easy-going and smiling. But, when I was with him one morning, I saw him lost in some serious thought. This was abou a week after the episode mentioned in the above mail.> > > > I asked what he was thinking. He said, "it is not that the future that is to come has not already happened. It has already happened in reality, but it will happen later when the time comes. You know what I mean?" I guessed what he was getting at, but pretended not to know. I said, "no. What do you mean?"> > > > He said, "I don't know how to say what I am thinking." This boy is not known to be overly intelligent or articulate. His main characteristic is that he is usually cheerful, playful, sweet, kind, contented and relaxed. However, he was onto something today. But he could not express himself.> > > > I helped him, "do you mean to say that future has already happened at some level, but will reveal itself to people later? Kind of like a movie. A movie may have been shot and become ready in a studio. Some people may have already seen it. But people seeing it on the screen later will think it is happening in front of them. Are you saying something like that?"> > > > He exclaimed, "exactly. That is what I am saying. If something is going to happen in future, it will happen when future comes. But somebody may be able to see it before future comes, because it has already happened."> > > > Though he did not mention it, I knew why he was thinking along these lines. When I told him the man riding the horse in his vision over the fire was Kalki and he was yet to come, he was probably confused. Given his age and ability to think and understand things, this probably seemed like an oddity to him that he should see somebody who had not yet come. So he was trying to think how it was possible and came to some important conclusions about "time" in his own way.> > > > Time seems linear at the level of regular consciousness. However, in many planes of conssciousness, the concept of time becomes changed. It even loses its meaning when one is established in non-dual Aatman or Brahman or Self.> > > > * * *> > > > The same boy once performed a very short Kaali homam with a small naama mantra of Dakshina Kaali with beejaakshara added before name. When we were meditating after poornaahuti, I felt a very intense and powerful energy. It was quite different from the energy I feel normally. This intense energy made my mind feel satisfied and blissful and a feeling that can be loosely expressed in words as "I am done here. I have nothing more left to do. Time to leave" filled my entire consciousnss.> > > > I had experienced the same kind of intense energy twice before that. Once I experienced the same energy when I was meditating sitting next to my guru Manish who was doing a Chandi homam in India. Second time was when I had an unexpected opportunity to meditate inside the garbhaalaya of a famous temple, standing within 3 feet from the main Kaali idol there, which was sanctified and worshipped by a great saint in the past. The energy I felt was the same on all the three occasions. At no other time did I feel that intense shakti.> > > > Interestingly, after we finished meditation and opened eyes, that boy remarked, "out of all the different homas I did so far, this is the bestest homam." I asked him why. He said, "I don't know how to say it, but it just felt awesome and different."> > > > * * *> > > > This boy performed a really simple and short procedure, shorter than what I give in manuals. But it seemed like he was successful in making a powerful energy manifest there. The bottomline is that internal purity is the most important thing.> > > > Rituals help purify one and purity helps one do a ritual better and get more out of it. It is an egg and chicken problem and one has to keep doing it until one breaks through.> > > > Keep performing your chosen spiritual practices, but do pay attention to internal purity as you engage in external practices. The only worthwhile measure of spiritual progress and purity is how smaller your ego becomes. As ego becomes smaller, you can resist attraction to external things better and you can resist internal enemies like lust, anger, jealosy etc better. You can do your dharma better. Ego - thinking that this is "I" and this is "mine" - is the root cause of all problems.> > > > * * *> > > > Overcoming ego using jnaana yoga is relatively challenging, but bhakti yoga is easier. Think that all that is around you - including your house, money, cars, spouse, children and your own body - is god's property and that you are a temporary caretaker of all of these properties of god. Do the best job you can, but without entertaining the notion "this is mine". A faithful servant takes very good care of his master's properties, but without thinking of all those things as his or her belongings.> > > > Realize that thinking of things as "mine" is not necessary for taking good care of them. A servant who loves one's master takes the best care of things entrusted to one. When a thing is taken away, a servant does not waste time worrying and crying. A servant will accept that is master's property and can be taken away anytime. This enables one to do the best job with what one possesses and not worry about what one does not possess or what is out of one's control.> > > > Developing the attitude of a servant who takes care of master's properties will help one wade the ocean of worldly life without getting caught and overcome ego.> > > > Best regards,> > Narasimha> > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -> > Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ homam> > Do Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ tarpana> > Spirituality: http://groups. / group/vedic- wisdom> > Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro. home.comcast. net> > Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAst rologer.org> > Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagan nath.org> > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > recommends that you upgrade to the new and safer Internet Explorer 8. http://downloads./in/internetexplorer/>

[Guest guest]

Namaste,

 

I am forwarding this to the list without revealing your name, so that others can also benefit from it. Thanks for the nice quote from Ramakrishna.

 

Though individual will (or free will) is non-existent from the perspective of a realized soul, it does exist for one who has an individual self-awareness (I-ness) that is limited to a body. One can do whatever one wants - good and bad - and declare at the end like a great philosopher, "god did it through me". But, the fact is that god did it through him, through his individual I-ness. The fruits of the action will be reaped by his individual I-ness in future. If the fruits are very unpleasant, one may feel great pain. One will not then think "god is doing things through me and god is experiencing this pain through me". Instead, one will cry out loud, "I am in pain"! Until one severs individual I-ness completely, there is no point in rhetorical declarations of god doing everything.

 

I have seen some Indian movies in which the villain quotes Bhagavad Gita and declares "I am not the doer. Krishna is the doer. He is doing this through me" and then goes on to do evil acts. That is not the correct attitude. If everyone entertains that attitude and does whatever one wants, there will be more sin in the world as Ramakrishna correctly said below.

 

As long as one has invidiaul I-ness, one will continue to be held responsible for actions committed by that I-ness and reap the good and bad fruits (and be born many times if needed). Only when that individual I-ness completely melts can one actually experience what Ramakrishna said below and remain pure, untouched by the actions committed.

 

Best regards,NarasimhaDo a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAstrologer.org/homamDo Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAstrologer.org/tarpanaSpirituality: Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro.home.comcast.netFree Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAstrologer.orgSri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagannath.org

 

- When I first read what you wrote below, understood the theory but still didn't "get it", like you had warned. Then I read this:-----------------"Vaidyanath - Sir, I have a doubt about what they call free will. Sometimes I wonder if it is true that I can do a good act as well as a bad one. Do we really have free will? Sri Ramakrishna - Everything is under the Lord's control - it is all His lila (divine sport). He has created a variety of things: small, big, powerful, weak, good and bad. Whether a man is good or bad is all His maya, His sport. Don't you see that all the trees in the garden are not alike? "Till one has realized God, one entertains the feeling that one is free to act. This illusion is also created by Him. If man did not feel that he had free will, there would be much more sin. If sin entailed no punishment, one would have no fear of it. "Do you know how one feels when one has realized the Lord? It is like this: I am a machine, You are the operator; I am the home, You are the mistress of the home. I am a chariot and You are the charioteer. I move the way You make me move. I speak the way You make me speak." -----------------from here: http://www.kathamrita.org/kathamrita2/k2sec04.htm and then came back and read your post carefully again. Suddenly things made a lot more sense. Thanks. Best,<deleted> , "Narasimha P.V.R. Rao" <pvr wrote:>> Namaste,> > > But my question is because I cannot reconcile this with freewill.> > Both cannot be correct. It is either this or that.> > Both are correct, but at different levels. I will elaborate. However, this is philosophically complex and those who do not follow what I say should not worry at all.> > * * *> > Non-dual self has no division of self into various objects or space or time. There is no concept of time or space or space-time continuum within non-dual self. A yogi absorbed in non-dual self has no sense of space or time or objectification.> > Supreme cosmic being is the link between duality and non-duality. Supreme cosmic being arising in this non-dual self captures the entire field of duality within Him. All beings, entire space and all space-time continua within the field of duality exist within Him. From the perspective of supreme cosmic being, all beings of the dual world are His parts and all their individual wills are parts of His cosmic will. As all space-time continua are within Him, there is nothing that is unknown to Him. Past, present and future; here, there and everywhere; I, you and others, this possibility, that possibility and yet another possibility - all are accessible and fully "known" to His self-awareness.> > Now, let us come lower and into the field of duality. The field of duality consists of infinite divisions of space, time and space-time continua. There are infinite possibilities within this field.> > Normally, people stuck deeply within duality have a linear sense of time and perceive just a part of one space-time continuum. However, field of duality also contains planes of consciousness where different senses of time and different space-time continua (that may intersect at various points) exist. A yogi who experiences such a space-time continuum in such a plane of consciousness may experience a point of time that maps to a future time in a regular space-time continuum being experienced by you. Also, what is 1 minute in one space-time continuum may be 1 year in another space-time continuum. Time is not as straight-forward an entity as one may think. Basically, the field of duality contains infinite space-time continua and what one experiences depends on the plane of consciousness that one's self-awareness (Kundalini) is in. But, most of us experience part of a specific space-time continuum and hence think that that is the only reality. But relaity consists of infinite space-time continua that intersect each other. These are all different possibilities and you chart out your course based on your actions and Nature's reactions to your actions.> > * * *> > From the perspective of a yogi who is in a different space-time continuum, your state may be known at a time that is in "future" as per the space-time continuum in which you exist. But, from the perspective of the space-time continuum that you are in, your state at that future time is not yet known and depends on your current action.> > If a yogi in a different space-time continuum has seen your state in future, his observation is merely an observation and from his reference frame. It has no causal relationship to your current action or your future state. He is merely an observer and he does not cause anything to happen. His observation is specific to some space-time pairs and does not cover all the space-time pairs that you will traverse as you travel to reach the space-time pair where he observed you (if at all you do!).> > * * *> > Let us go further. Is there only one future possible for you? Or, does the path traversed by you in space-time continuum not fixed but variable based on your actions? Can your actions at important cross-roads alter the course you traverse?> > If so, what is the meaning of a yogi observing you at a space-time pair? Is his observation only a possibility or a certainty? One may say "how can one observe a possibility? Anything we observe must be a certainty." But is that correct? Aren't the field of duality and the infinite space-time continua contained in it merely a set of infinite possibilities?> > Some great rishis can see not just a space-time pair, but many space-time continua at the same time, i.e. they can see various possibilities based on various possible actions. However, visions seen by most yogis about "future" are just one possibility.> > * * *> > Bottomline: At the level at which we exist, there is certainly something called "freewill". Within the limits imposed by the reactions given by nature to your own previous actions, you do have a scope for engaging in different actions at this time. Depending on which action you engage in, the future can be slightly different. Some actions can even make the future significantly different. A rishi may be able to chart out a significant portion of the field of possibilities for future (e.g. like a brilliant chess player figuring out most possibilities upto 20 moves from now). An advanced yogi may be able to see a few possibilities for future (e.g. like a good chess player figuring out a few moves or guessing a future position). But the supreme cosmic being knows the entire field of possibilities, as they all exist within Him.> > However, your actions are what bring to fruition (w.r.t. the reference frame of your consciousness!) some of those possibilities. One may know all the possibilities quite deeply and even guess the possibility that will come to fruition, but it is your actions that actually make some of those possibilities a reality.> > Best regards,> Narasimha> > Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAstrologer.org/homam> Do Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAstrologer.org/tarpana> Spirituality: > Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro.home.comcast.net> Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAstrologer.org> Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagannath.org> > > - > rajarshi nandy > > Tuesday, June 30, 2009 5:22 AM> Re: Freewill.> > Namaste Narasimhaji> > No doubt a wonderful and inspiring mail for all of us, however, I could not help it that an inevitable question popped up in my mind. One of the oft discussed and eternal questions.> > If events have already been created like in a movie and later as time unfolds, they happen in our plane of existence, then all talk of freewill must be humbug? Like a placebo that makes us "happy" but in reality does not exist!> > I am not questioning that what you wrote in the mail about events having already happened, because same has been said by other great spiritual people in the world. > > But my question is because I cannot reconcile this with a freewill. Both cannot be correct. It is either this or that.> > Theoritically speaking, say tomorrow suddenly majority of the world reforms itself, does a self correction exercise and brings in peace, harmony etc etc, then why should the Kalki Avatar still incarnate? But then if the Kalki Avatar has to incarnate - as our texts say - then such a self correcting option is already negated out.> > Well, theoritically, in a very large viewpoint no one has any choice in the sense that finally everyone will end up merging with the divine.> > So I guess freewill is not really as free as we love to think.> > -Regards> Rajarshi> > The upsurge (of consciousness) is Bhairava - Shiva Sutra> > --- On Tue, 30/6/09, Narasimha PVR Rao <pvr wrote:> > Narasimha PVR Rao <pvr> Miscellany: Future, bestest homam, purity and overcoming ego> > Tuesday, 30 June, 2009, 6:01 AM> > > Namaste,> > I mentioned an episode of a small boy who did a very short Chandi homam and saw Vishnu's ten incarnations above the fire in the following mail:> > http://groups. / group/vedic- wisdom/message/ 761> > This boy was born and brought up in US and is not proficient in his knowledge of Hinduism. He did not know much about some of the ten incarnations. He described what he saw and I told him who was who and a little about them. One of the forms he saw was a radiant man with white clothes riding a white horse on a dusty road. I told him he was Kalki and he hadn't come yet.> > * * *> > This boy is usually playful, easy-going and smiling. But, when I was with him one morning, I saw him lost in some serious thought. This was abou a week after the episode mentioned in the above mail.> > I asked what he was thinking. He said, "it is not that the future that is to come has not already happened. It has already happened in reality, but it will happen later when the time comes. You know what I mean?" I guessed what he was getting at, but pretended not to know. I said, "no. What do you mean?"> > He said, "I don't know how to say what I am thinking." This boy is not known to be overly intelligent or articulate. His main characteristic is that he is usually cheerful, playful, sweet, kind, contented and relaxed. However, he was onto something today. But he could not express himself.> > I helped him, "do you mean to say that future has already happened at some level, but will reveal itself to people later? Kind of like a movie. A movie may have been shot and become ready in a studio. Some people may have already seen it. But people seeing it on the screen later will think it is happening in front of them. Are you saying something like that?"> > He exclaimed, "exactly. That is what I am saying. If something is going to happen in future, it will happen when future comes. But somebody may be able to see it before future comes, because it has already happened."> > Though he did not mention it, I knew why he was thinking along these lines. When I told him the man riding the horse in his vision over the fire was Kalki and he was yet to come, he was probably confused. Given his age and ability to think and understand things, this probably seemed like an oddity to him that he should see somebody who had not yet come. So he was trying to think how it was possible and came to some important conclusions about "time" in his own way.> > Time seems linear at the level of regular consciousness. However, in many planes of conssciousness, the concept of time becomes changed. It even loses its meaning when one is established in non-dual Aatman or Brahman or Self.> > * * *> > The same boy once performed a very short Kaali homam with a small naama mantra of Dakshina Kaali with beejaakshara added before name. When we were meditating after poornaahuti, I felt a very intense and powerful energy. It was quite different from the energy I feel normally. This intense energy made my mind feel satisfied and blissful and a feeling that can be loosely expressed in words as "I am done here. I have nothing more left to do. Time to leave" filled my entire consciousnss.> > I had experienced the same kind of intense energy twice before that. Once I experienced the same energy when I was meditating sitting next to my guru Manish who was doing a Chandi homam in India. Second time was when I had an unexpected opportunity to meditate inside the garbhaalaya of a famous temple, standing within 3 feet from the main Kaali idol there, which was sanctified and worshipped by a great saint in the past. The energy I felt was the same on all the three occasions. At no other time did I feel that intense shakti.> > Interestingly, after we finished meditation and opened eyes, that boy remarked, "out of all the different homas I did so far, this is the bestest homam." I asked him why. He said, "I don't know how to say it, but it just felt awesome and different."> > * * *> > This boy performed a really simple and short procedure, shorter than what I give in manuals. But it seemed like he was successful in making a powerful energy manifest there. The bottomline is that internal purity is the most important thing.> > Rituals help purify one and purity helps one do a ritual better and get more out of it. It is an egg and chicken problem and one has to keep doing it until one breaks through.> > Keep performing your chosen spiritual practices, but do pay attention to internal purity as you engage in external practices. The only worthwhile measure of spiritual progress and purity is how smaller your ego becomes. As ego becomes smaller, you can resist attraction to external things better and you can resist internal enemies like lust, anger, jealosy etc better. You can do your dharma better. Ego - thinking that this is "I" and this is "mine" - is the root cause of all problems.> > * * *> > Overcoming ego using jnaana yoga is relatively challenging, but bhakti yoga is easier. Think that all that is around you - including your house, money, cars, spouse, children and your own body - is god's property and that you are a temporary caretaker of all of these properties of god. Do the best job you can, but without entertaining the notion "this is mine". A faithful servant takes very good care of his master's properties, but without thinking of all those things as his or her belongings.> > Realize that thinking of things as "mine" is not necessary for taking good care of them. A servant who loves one's master takes the best care of things entrusted to one. When a thing is taken away, a servant does not waste time worrying and crying. A servant will accept that is master's property and can be taken away anytime. This enables one to do the best job with what one possesses and not worry about what one does not possess or what is out of one's control.> > Developing the attitude of a servant who takes care of master's properties will help one wade the ocean of worldly life without getting caught and overcome ego.> > Best regards,> Narasimha> ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -> Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ homam> Do Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ tarpana> Spirituality: http://groups. / group/vedic- wisdom> Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro. home.comcast. net> Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAst rologer.org> Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagan nath.org> ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -

[Guest guest]

namaste,

 

>One can do whatever one wants - good and bad - and declare at the >end like a

great philosopher, " god did it through me " . But, the...

 

Exactly. i agree completely. an individual with I ness can always think in terms

such as 'I am doing' 'i am happy' 'i am sad' 'why it is happening to me...what

did i do wrong' etc... It means that the person has a sense of free will and as

a result enjoys the fruits good or bad or mixed (however most boast about free

will when enjoys good fruits but as soon as bad fruits comes on the way they

blame destiny, god, and everything else).

 

I felt that the whole issue of free will may be explained with one line " there

is actually no free will " . to clear any confusion, i never meant that people

should do as they wish without discrimination and look for only comfortable

result for themselves and perform crime, Adharma and then pretend to be

philosopher by quoting Ramkrishna or Gita. it is foolishness and darkest layer

of ignorance to use the teaching of Thakur in that way . i may be completely

wrong in my freewill understanding (or misunderstanding)as i have no experience

of anything which is beyond the realm of five senses.

 

Elsewhere i have written following to rafal:

>A is suppose to be a fool in a birth so 'A' does foolish

>activities and gets the fruits of the same. B is suppose to be a >demon in one

life. it is ordained that way and hence B keeps on >engaging in gruesome

activities due to wrath, jealousy, pride, >etc…does exactly as ordained and gets

the fruits accordingly.

>A and B are destined to realize self, they will think and act >accordingly,

they will meet a right Guru, do lawful activities,

>sadhanaas etc.. and the fruit of all these will be self realization >which was

already fixed. so every activities and corresponding >Fruits (mental and

physical), would be in compliance with the law >of nature and there is no

violation just because the drama is fixed.

 

i've given few verses from DS in one of the messages for you to explain.

 

few days back, at my native, i was going thro' Ramkrishna Lila prasang.

Interesting thing i again read after a long time is about Naren's experiences.

He used to feel that he knows people, houses, and even some episodes beforehand.

He felt that he has already seen these things before. He finally came to

intellectual conclusion that he would have seen all his life on earth like a

film before he incarnated.

 

let me leave this topic at that if i've enough free will to do that:).

 

Best regards,

 

utpal

 

 

 

n , " Narasimha P.V.R. Rao " <pvr wrote:

>

> Namaste,

>

> I am forwarding this to the list without revealing your name, so that others

can also benefit from it. Thanks for the nice quote from Ramakrishna.

>

> Though individual will (or free will) is non-existent from the perspective of

a realized soul, it does exist for one who has an individual self-awareness

(I-ness) that is limited to a body. One can do whatever one wants - good and bad

- and declare at the end like a great philosopher, " god did it through me " . But,

the fact is that god did it through him, through his individual I-ness. The

fruits of the action will be reaped by his individual I-ness in future. If the

fruits are very unpleasant, one may feel great pain. One will not then think

" god is doing things through me and god is experiencing this pain through me " .

Instead, one will cry out loud, " I am in pain " ! Until one severs individual

I-ness completely, there is no point in rhetorical declarations of god doing

everything.

>

> I have seen some Indian movies in which the villain quotes Bhagavad Gita and

declares " I am not the doer. Krishna is the doer. He is doing this through me "

and then goes on to do evil acts. That is not the correct attitude. If everyone

entertains that attitude and does whatever one wants, there will be more sin in

the world as Ramakrishna correctly said below.

>

> As long as one has invidiaul I-ness, one will continue to be held responsible

for actions committed by that I-ness and reap the good and bad fruits (and be

born many times if needed). Only when that individual I-ness completely melts

can one actually experience what Ramakrishna said below and remain pure,

untouched by the actions committed.

>

> Best regards,

> Narasimha

>

> Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAstrologer.org/homam

> Do Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAstrologer.org/tarpana

> Spirituality:

> Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro.home.comcast.net

> Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAstrologer.org

> Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagannath.org

>

>

> -

>

> When I first read what you wrote below, understood the theory but still didn't

" get it " , like you had warned. Then I read this:

> -----------------

> " Vaidyanath - Sir, I have a doubt about what they call free will. Sometimes I

wonder if it is true that I can do a good act as well as a bad one. Do we really

have free will?

>

> Sri Ramakrishna - Everything is under the Lord's control - it is all His lila

(divine sport). He has created a variety of things: small, big, powerful, weak,

good and bad. Whether a man is good or bad is all His maya, His sport. Don't you

see that all the trees in the garden are not alike?

>

> " Till one has realized God, one entertains the feeling that one is free to

act. This illusion is also created by Him. If man did not feel that he had free

will, there would be much more sin. If sin entailed no punishment, one would

have no fear of it.

>

> " Do you know how one feels when one has realized the Lord? It is like this: I

am a machine, You are the operator; I am the home, You are the mistress of the

home. I am a chariot and You are the charioteer. I move the way You make me

move. I speak the way You make me speak. "

>

> -----------------

> from here: http://www.kathamrita.org/kathamrita2/k2sec04.htm

>

> and then came back and read your post carefully again. Suddenly things made a

lot more sense. Thanks.

>

> Best,

> <deleted>

>

> , " Narasimha P.V.R. Rao " <pvr@> wrote:

> >

> > Namaste,

> >

> > > But my question is because I cannot reconcile this with freewill.

> > > Both cannot be correct. It is either this or that.

> >

> > Both are correct, but at different levels. I will elaborate. However, this

is philosophically complex and those who do not follow what I say should not

worry at all.

> >

> > * * *

> >

> > Non-dual self has no division of self into various objects or space or time.

There is no concept of time or space or space-time continuum within non-dual

self. A yogi absorbed in non-dual self has no sense of space or time or

objectification.

> >

> > Supreme cosmic being is the link between duality and non-duality. Supreme

cosmic being arising in this non-dual self captures the entire field of duality

within Him. All beings, entire space and all space-time continua within the

field of duality exist within Him. From the perspective of supreme cosmic being,

all beings of the dual world are His parts and all their individual wills are

parts of His cosmic will. As all space-time continua are within Him, there is

nothing that is unknown to Him. Past, present and future; here, there and

everywhere; I, you and others, this possibility, that possibility and yet

another possibility - all are accessible and fully " known " to His

self-awareness.

> >

> > Now, let us come lower and into the field of duality. The field of duality

consists of infinite divisions of space, time and space-time continua. There are

infinite possibilities within this field.

> >

> > Normally, people stuck deeply within duality have a linear sense of time and

perceive just a part of one space-time continuum. However, field of duality also

contains planes of consciousness where different senses of time and different

space-time continua (that may intersect at various points) exist. A yogi who

experiences such a space-time continuum in such a plane of consciousness may

experience a point of time that maps to a future time in a regular space-time

continuum being experienced by you. Also, what is 1 minute in one space-time

continuum may be 1 year in another space-time continuum. Time is not as

straight-forward an entity as one may think. Basically, the field of duality

contains infinite space-time continua and what one experiences depends on the

plane of consciousness that one's self-awareness (Kundalini) is in. But, most of

us experience part of a specific space-time continuum and hence think that that

is the only reality. But relaity consists of infinite space-time continua that

intersect each other. These are all different possibilities and you chart out

your course based on your actions and Nature's reactions to your actions.

> >

> > * * *

> >

> > From the perspective of a yogi who is in a different space-time continuum,

your state may be known at a time that is in " future " as per the space-time

continuum in which you exist. But, from the perspective of the space-time

continuum that you are in, your state at that future time is not yet known and

depends on your current action.

> >

> > If a yogi in a different space-time continuum has seen your state in future,

his observation is merely an observation and from his reference frame. It has no

causal relationship to your current action or your future state. He is merely an

observer and he does not cause anything to happen. His observation is specific

to some space-time pairs and does not cover all the space-time pairs that you

will traverse as you travel to reach the space-time pair where he observed you

(if at all you do!).

> >

> > * * *

> >

> > Let us go further. Is there only one future possible for you? Or, does the

path traversed by you in space-time continuum not fixed but variable based on

your actions? Can your actions at important cross-roads alter the course you

traverse?

> >

> > If so, what is the meaning of a yogi observing you at a space-time pair? Is

his observation only a possibility or a certainty? One may say " how can one

observe a possibility? Anything we observe must be a certainty. " But is that

correct? Aren't the field of duality and the infinite space-time continua

contained in it merely a set of infinite possibilities?

> >

> > Some great rishis can see not just a space-time pair, but many space-time

continua at the same time, i.e. they can see various possibilities based on

various possible actions. However, visions seen by most yogis about " future " are

just one possibility.

> >

> > * * *

> >

> > Bottomline: At the level at which we exist, there is certainly something

called " freewill " . Within the limits imposed by the reactions given by nature to

your own previous actions, you do have a scope for engaging in different actions

at this time. Depending on which action you engage in, the future can be

slightly different. Some actions can even make the future significantly

different. A rishi may be able to chart out a significant portion of the field

of possibilities for future (e.g. like a brilliant chess player figuring out

most possibilities upto 20 moves from now). An advanced yogi may be able to see

a few possibilities for future (e.g. like a good chess player figuring out a few

moves or guessing a future position). But the supreme cosmic being knows the

entire field of possibilities, as they all exist within Him.

> >

> > However, your actions are what bring to fruition (w.r.t. the reference frame

of your consciousness!) some of those possibilities. One may know all the

possibilities quite deeply and even guess the possibility that will come to

fruition, but it is your actions that actually make some of those possibilities

a reality.

> >

> > Best regards,

> > Narasimha

> >

> > Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAstrologer.org/homam

> > Do Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAstrologer.org/tarpana

> > Spirituality:

> > Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro.home.comcast.net

> > Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAstrologer.org

> > Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagannath.org

> >

> >

> > -

> > rajarshi nandy

> >

> > Tuesday, June 30, 2009 5:22 AM

> > Re: Freewill.

> >

> > Namaste Narasimhaji

> >

> > No doubt a wonderful and inspiring mail for all of us, however, I

could not help it that an inevitable question popped up in my mind. One of the

oft discussed and eternal questions.

> >

> > If events have already been created like in a movie and later as

time unfolds, they happen in our plane of existence, then all talk of freewill

must be humbug? Like a placebo that makes us " happy " but in reality does not

exist!

> >

> > I am not questioning that what you wrote in the mail about events

having already happened, because same has been said by other great spiritual

people in the world.

> >

> > But my question is because I cannot reconcile this with a freewill.

Both cannot be correct. It is either this or that.

> >

> > Theoritically speaking, say tomorrow suddenly majority of the world

reforms itself, does a self correction exercise and brings in peace, harmony etc

etc, then why should the Kalki Avatar still incarnate? But then if the Kalki

Avatar has to incarnate - as our texts say - then such a self correcting option

is already negated out.

> >

> > Well, theoritically, in a very large viewpoint no one has any choice

in the sense that finally everyone will end up merging with the divine.

> >

> > So I guess freewill is not really as free as we love to think.

> >

> > -Regards

> > Rajarshi

> >

> > The upsurge (of consciousness) is Bhairava - Shiva Sutra

> >

> > --- On Tue, 30/6/09, Narasimha PVR Rao <pvr@> wrote:

> >

> > Narasimha PVR Rao <pvr@>

> > Miscellany: Future, bestest homam, purity

and overcoming ego

> >

> > Tuesday, 30 June, 2009, 6:01 AM

> >

> >

> > Namaste,

> >

> > I mentioned an episode of a small boy who did a very short Chandi

homam and saw Vishnu's ten incarnations above the fire in the following mail:

> >

> > http://groups. / group/vedic- wisdom/message/ 761

> >

> > This boy was born and brought up in US and is not proficient in

his knowledge of Hinduism. He did not know much about some of the ten

incarnations. He described what he saw and I told him who was who and a little

about them. One of the forms he saw was a radiant man with white clothes riding

a white horse on a dusty road. I told him he was Kalki and he hadn't come yet.

> >

> > * * *

> >

> > This boy is usually playful, easy-going and smiling. But, when I

was with him one morning, I saw him lost in some serious thought. This was abou

a week after the episode mentioned in the above mail.

> >

> > I asked what he was thinking. He said, " it is not that the future

that is to come has not already happened. It has already happened in reality,

but it will happen later when the time comes. You know what I mean? " I guessed

what he was getting at, but pretended not to know. I said, " no. What do you

mean? "

> >

> > He said, " I don't know how to say what I am thinking. " This boy is

not known to be overly intelligent or articulate. His main characteristic is

that he is usually cheerful, playful, sweet, kind, contented and relaxed.

However, he was onto something today. But he could not express himself.

> >

> > I helped him, " do you mean to say that future has already happened

at some level, but will reveal itself to people later? Kind of like a movie. A

movie may have been shot and become ready in a studio. Some people may have

already seen it. But people seeing it on the screen later will think it is

happening in front of them. Are you saying something like that? "

> >

> > He exclaimed, " exactly. That is what I am saying. If something is

going to happen in future, it will happen when future comes. But somebody may be

able to see it before future comes, because it has already happened. "

> >

> > Though he did not mention it, I knew why he was thinking along

these lines. When I told him the man riding the horse in his vision over the

fire was Kalki and he was yet to come, he was probably confused. Given his age

and ability to think and understand things, this probably seemed like an oddity

to him that he should see somebody who had not yet come. So he was trying to

think how it was possible and came to some important conclusions about " time " in

his own way.

> >

> > Time seems linear at the level of regular consciousness. However,

in many planes of conssciousness, the concept of time becomes changed. It even

loses its meaning when one is established in non-dual Aatman or Brahman or Self.

> >

> > * * *

> >

> > The same boy once performed a very short Kaali homam with a small

naama mantra of Dakshina Kaali with beejaakshara added before name. When we were

meditating after poornaahuti, I felt a very intense and powerful energy. It was

quite different from the energy I feel normally. This intense energy made my

mind feel satisfied and blissful and a feeling that can be loosely expressed in

words as " I am done here. I have nothing more left to do. Time to leave " filled

my entire consciousnss.

> >

> > I had experienced the same kind of intense energy twice before

that. Once I experienced the same energy when I was meditating sitting next to

my guru Manish who was doing a Chandi homam in India. Second time was when I had

an unexpected opportunity to meditate inside the garbhaalaya of a famous temple,

standing within 3 feet from the main Kaali idol there, which was sanctified and

worshipped by a great saint in the past. The energy I felt was the same on all

the three occasions. At no other time did I feel that intense shakti.

> >

> > Interestingly, after we finished meditation and opened eyes, that

boy remarked, " out of all the different homas I did so far, this is the bestest

homam. " I asked him why. He said, " I don't know how to say it, but it just felt

awesome and different. "

> >

> > * * *

> >

> > This boy performed a really simple and short procedure, shorter

than what I give in manuals. But it seemed like he was successful in making a

powerful energy manifest there. The bottomline is that internal purity is the

most important thing.

> >

> > Rituals help purify one and purity helps one do a ritual better

and get more out of it. It is an egg and chicken problem and one has to keep

doing it until one breaks through.

> >

> > Keep performing your chosen spiritual practices, but do pay

attention to internal purity as you engage in external practices. The only

worthwhile measure of spiritual progress and purity is how smaller your ego

becomes. As ego becomes smaller, you can resist attraction to external things

better and you can resist internal enemies like lust, anger, jealosy etc better.

You can do your dharma better. Ego - thinking that this is " I " and this is

" mine " - is the root cause of all problems.

> >

> > * * *

> >

> > Overcoming ego using jnaana yoga is relatively challenging, but

bhakti yoga is easier. Think that all that is around you - including your house,

money, cars, spouse, children and your own body - is god's property and that you

are a temporary caretaker of all of these properties of god. Do the best job you

can, but without entertaining the notion " this is mine " . A faithful servant

takes very good care of his master's properties, but without thinking of all

those things as his or her belongings.

> >

> > Realize that thinking of things as " mine " is not necessary for

taking good care of them. A servant who loves one's master takes the best care

of things entrusted to one. When a thing is taken away, a servant does not waste

time worrying and crying. A servant will accept that is master's property and

can be taken away anytime. This enables one to do the best job with what one

possesses and not worry about what one does not possess or what is out of one's

control.

> >

> > Developing the attitude of a servant who takes care of master's

properties will help one wade the ocean of worldly life without getting caught

and overcome ego.

> >

> > Best regards,

> > Narasimha

> > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -

> > Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ homam

> > Do Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/

tarpana

> > Spirituality: http://groups. / group/vedic- wisdom

> > Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro. home.comcast. net

> > Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAst rologer.org

> > Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagan nath.org

> > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -

>