Guest guest Posted April 8, 2009 Report Share Posted April 8, 2009 If casts are determined by the nature, why did Parasurama deny Karna to teach. More over, Parasurama identifies him as a kshatriya. Karna did not show any hunger for power. He showed the qualities of a sudra/sevaka. The only kshatriya quality demonstrated by him is the liking for wars! Gauthama rejects to teach a boy a he is not a brahmin. Rama killed a sudra (not sure if this was reliable) for doing tapam. How do we justify all of these? Also, Ravana is a brahmin (Rama gets Brahmahatya patakam after killing Ravana) even as all he showed is the huger for power and ego. He has learn vedas but, mere learning does not make him a brahmana. Going by that, Karna acted like a brahmin and learnt quite a few things from Parasurama. But, Parasurama calls him a kshatriya and banishes him. Drona was a brahmin, but he showed hatred and anger not suitable for a brahmin (towards Drupada). Best regards, Vijay. , " Narasimha P.V.R. Rao " <pvr wrote: > > Namaste, > > Dharma shastras try to define dharma universally, undoubtedly an unenviable > task. Even if one does a great job for the given desa, kaala and paatra > (place, era and class), the rules given cannot be perfect. They can be taken > as a general guideline, but they cannnot be absolute. > > Regarding non-Brahmins: > > If a person is interested in Veda and studies Veda, one IS a Brahmana. One > who is interested in knowledge and spirituality is a Brahmana. One who is > interested in power and authority over others is a Kshatriya. One who is > interested in wealth is a Vaishya. One who is interested in pleasures in a > Shoodra (that is why phala sruti of Vishnu sahasra naama stotra promises > these respective results to the four varnas - see " vedaantago braahmanah > syaat... " ). Valmiki was born in a shoodra family, but became a brahmana and > a maharshi later. Vishwamitra was born in a kshatriya family, but became a > brahmana and a maharshi later and many veda hymns were actually revealed to > the world through him! > > The meaning of saying that only a Brahmana can deal with veda is that only a > person interested in knowledge and spiritual progress (and not money or > power or pleasures) can learn and teach veda. Others (interested in money, > power and pleasures) are not qualified for self-realization. It has nothing > to do with the the birth caste. > > Regarding women: > > Veda is for self-knowledge. Study and contemplation of Veda is for > self-realization. Spiritually speaking, Shiva is the potential energy and > Shakti is the kinetic energy. Men are supposed to have more Shiva than > Shakti in them and women are supposed to have more Shakti than Shiva in > them. If a man is really like Shiva, he can study and experience Veda and > realize self and his wife can realize self through him. That would be a good > strategy. > > However, men are hardly like Shiva today. In fact, there is very little > Shiva in anyone and there is more Shakti (kinetic energy) in women as well > as men today. Moreover, most men do not do any spiritual sadhana at all. The > rules make no sense anymore. > > In the old days, rishis pursued knowledge and spiritual sadhana, while their > wives ran the houses. The sadhana of rishis was sufficient for them and > their wives. Today's men are different. Whenever I go to a poojas at the > houses of friends, I see all women gathering at the pooja and chanting > mantras, while all men sit elsewhere and chat about sports, politics and > movies. The world is a changed place. Women cannot rely on their men to do > spiritual sadhana for them and they are on their own. Men are not like > Shiva. Rules composed long back do not apply anymore. > > Upasani maharaj, who was worshipped by Shirdi Sai Baba himself as god, was a > great Vedic scholar who taught veda and yajna to women! I respect his > judgment and its relevance today more than the relevance of an ancient > dharma shastra. Universal dharma needs to be redefined from time to time by > realized souls. It becomes stale otherwise. > > This is the problem with some religions that are based on a written text. > The text may have been good for a specific desa-kaala-paatra, but may have > become stale now. Fortunately, sanatana dharma (aka Hinduism) does not > depend on one specific text. We emphasize sadhana to realize truth rather > than adherence to a text. This emphasis on active sadhana ensured a > continuous flow of realized souls. We had many realized souls (like > Jnaneshwar Maharaj, Samartha Ramadas, Sai Baba, Ramakrishna Paramahamsa, > Ramana Maharshi etc) from time to time and they refined our understanding. > Religions that emphasized adherence to a text rather than active sadhana to > realize truth depended on an old text put together by one realized soul and > they may have become stale now. > > Best regards, > Narasimha > > Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAstrologer.org/homam > Do Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAstrologer.org/tarpana > Spirituality: > Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro.home.comcast.net > Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAstrologer.org > Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagannath.org > > > - > " Jagmohan Nanaware " <jagmohan_nanaware > > Tuesday, April 07, 2009 1:57 PM > Women reading Vedas (Re: reading/learning the veda) > > > > Namaste, > > > > Excellent explanation from you Narasimha-ji! > > > > Just have some doubts: > > The code of conduct about reciting vedas (who can do it) are prescribed > > in Manusmriti. Is that correct? As per Manusmriti: > > a. The teaching of vedas can be done only by Brahmin and no one > > else. > > b. Women and some sections of society are not given rights to > > recite, listen, read, translate, comment on vedas. > > > > However, If I am not wrong Manusmriti does not talk about code of conduct > > in different yugas (Satya, Treta, Dwapar, Kali). Is there any reference to > > this? Can you throw some light on this? > > > > Ofcourse the best reference to description of different yugas I have found > > is in " Guru Charitra " . > > > > regards, > > > > Jagmohan > > > > , " rohinipurang " <rohinipurang@> > > wrote: > >> > >> Thank you Narasimha > >> > >> Your 'rambling' was indeed very interesting and enlightening, esp abt > >> the stree sharira. So, I take it, that there is nothing in the vedic > >> text itself debarring women. > >> > >> Can you recommend a good, unbiased translation of the entire vedic > >> text in English or Hindi? > >> > >> Regards > >> > >> Rohini > >> > >> > >> , " Narasimha P.V.R. Rao " <pvr@> > >> wrote: > >> > > >> > Namaste friends, > >> > > >> > We are living in Kali yuga and Kali is becoming deeper. We cannot > >> trust that > >> > every standard convention is based on sound knowledge. > >> > > >> > * * * > >> > > >> > One of my favorite sooktas is " Devi Sooktam " from Rigveda. It is > >> attributed > >> > to Vagambhrani, a female rishi. She felt oneness with the Divine > >> Mother in > >> > Her undivided supreme form (nearly nirguna form) and the riks of > >> Devi > >> > sooktam were revealed to her then. Those eight riks are really > >> fantastic. > >> > > >> > There are other riks in Rigveda that were revealed to the world by > >> female > >> > rishis. We use those riks in our worship, meditation, homas and > >> other > >> > sadhanas. Yet, should we insist that women cannot recite Veda? If > >> > Vagambhrani is amid us again as a woman, should we stop her from > >> reciting > >> > Devi sooktam? > >> > > >> > * * * > >> > > >> > Jnaneshwar (or Jnanadev) was a great saint from Maharashtra from > >> about 800 > >> > years back. He was a great devotee of Krishna and was a fully self- > >> realized > >> > master at a young age. He reformed religion and corrected some > >> corrupt > >> > traditions. He once made a buffalo chant Veda. > >> > > >> > He started to recite Veda and the head of the Brahmin council > >> forbade him > >> > because he was not " qualified " to recite Veda. Jnaneshwar insisted > >> that > >> > everyone had a right to recite Veda and the head of the council > >> disagreed. > >> > As he started reciting Veda, the Brahmins tried to stop him by > >> closing his > >> > mouth. Then a buffalo standing next to him took over and chanted > >> Veda. > >> > Astounded by the miracle, the Brahmins fell at his feet. The head > >> apologized > >> > and said, " we are masquerading as the keepers of Veda, but you have > >> the real > >> > understanding and mastery of Veda " . > >> > > >> > Jnaneshwar taught the equality of all and did not distinguish > >> between people > >> > based on caste, creed or gender. He considered BhagavadGita as the > >> essence > >> > of Veda and wrote a fantastic commentary on it. His commentary > >> departs from > >> > the standard Dwaitic (dualistic) point of view adopted by most > >> Vaishnava > >> > gurus and uses a purely Adwaitic (non-dualistic) point of view. It > >> is a > >> > priceless and timeless masterpiece. > >> > > >> > * * * > >> > > >> > One Swamiji who was at my house last month had an interesting take. > >> He said > >> > that the belief that women cannot recite Vedas is based on a > >> > misinterpretation. He said that the physical body we have is called > >> the > >> > " stree sareera " and the inner body we have is called the " purusha > >> sareera " . > >> > He said that the physical body comes from mother and the soul comes > >> from > >> > father and that is why they are called so. The soul or inner self > >> is the > >> > thousand-headed purusha within us (described in purusha sooktam). > >> > > >> > He said that Veda is supposed to be recited with the purusha > >> sareera. > >> > According to him, it does not mean that women cannot read it. > >> Whether men or > >> > women, they have to read it with the purusha sareera, i.e. inner > >> body, and > >> > not just with the physical body. So, according to him, the standard > >> > convention is based on a flawed understanding. According to him, > >> one simply > >> > reciting Veda with the mouth without the correct internal > >> understanding is > >> > only reading with the " stree sareera " and hence not doing the right > >> thing. > >> > > >> > * * * > >> > > >> > In fact, reciting Veda and chanting the verses is one thing and > >> > understanding them is quite another. When we make sound, there are > >> four > >> > levels of it - vaikhari, madhyama, pasyanti and para. Vibration of > >> material > >> > belonging to the gross body (sthoola sareera) produces vaikhari > >> level of > >> > sound and it is heard through the senses belonging to the gross > >> body (ears). > >> > But vibrations at the level of subtle body (sookshma sareera) and > >> vibrations > >> > at the level of astral body (kaarana sareera) are also there and > >> can be > >> > perceived thorough subtle perception. > >> > > >> > If one is chanting " Om Namo Narayanaya " and thinking of some > >> mundane > >> > matters, the vibrations produced at levels above vaikhari will not > >> be > >> > auspicious. There is so much stress on what we do physically and > >> people > >> > forget that what happens at the other layers of existence is > >> equally, if not > >> > more, important! > >> > > >> > If you produce the correct vibrations at all levels (not just > >> physical) > >> > while " reciting " any Vedic mantra, you can truly " experience " the > >> mantra. A > >> > full experience of a single Vedic mantra may be sufficient to alter > >> one's > >> > life! The mantras of Veda are most powerful. Unfortunately, so much > >> of Vedic > >> > scholarship these days is only superficial (but it has to be > >> encouraged, > >> > because it will keep atleast one level of knowledge alive). > >> > > >> > Forget the man vs woman controversy. The difference between genders > >> is only > >> > in the gross body. When you go to the subtle body and astral body, > >> there is > >> > no difference at all. One should realize that the role of gross > >> body is too > >> > limited in the correct recitation/experience of a Vedic mantra. It > >> is the > >> > purity of the subtle body and the lightness of the astral body that > >> are far > >> > more important. > >> > > >> > * * * > >> > > >> > To be fair and balanced, I need to throw light on the other angle. > >> Like I > >> > said, Vedic mantras are too powerful. They are capable of producing > >> a full > >> > self-realization (actually the sole purpose of Veda is " to know > >> self " ). > >> > However, given the depth of Kali Yuga, it is difficult for it to > >> come in one > >> > shot. It comes in steps. When one is half way down the path, one > >> has to be > >> > careful and under the vigilant guidance of a sadguru. > >> > > >> > When one is not fully realized and the gross body has a role to > >> play, there > >> > are some differences based on the gender that come into play. > >> > > >> > If a lady carrying a baby in her womb has certain spiritual > >> experiences > >> > (which a good Vedic chanting is capable of bringing), there can > >> even be an > >> > abortion (or a great siddha being born, on the other extreme). > >> > > >> > There is another subtle factor. Good Vedic chanting can bring an > >> awakening > >> > of Kundalini (i.e. an awakening of self-awareness) and an ascent of > >> > Kundalini (i.e. an ascent of self-awareness). Though some people > >> may have a > >> > wrong impression about Kundalini because of the corrupt practices > >> of a > >> > section of so-called " Kundalini sadhakas " , the fact is that > >> Kundalini merely > >> > represents one's ego-consciousness. When one casually associates > >> the body > >> > one sees with " self " , Kundalini is asleep in the Mooladhara chakra. > >> As one's > >> > self-awareness becomes more and more refined, Kundalini ascends in > >> the > >> > sookshma sareera. As one has a perfect self-realization, Kundalini > >> reaches > >> > Sahasrara. Whether one thinks in these terms or not, Kundalini > >> moves based > >> > on how evolved one is. Whether one is into Bhakti yoga or Raja yoga > >> or Karma > >> > yoga or Jnana yoga does not matter. All paths lead to an awareness > >> of a more > >> > and more correct concept of self as time progresses and a full > >> > self-realization finally. Accordingly, Kundalini rises more and > >> more and > >> > reaches Sahasrara at the end. > >> > > >> > During the period when Kundalini is stuck in Swadhishthana chakra, > >> sexual > >> > drive can multiply. Several yogis get stuck in this stage and fail > >> the tests > >> > to progress further. In general, women have a higher drive than > >> men. If that > >> > drive multiplies, there can be a difficult situation. However, it > >> really > >> > depends on the individual and we cannot generalize. > >> > > >> > Thus, there are some practical difficulties on the way, which may > >> have made > >> > some people come up with some rules. However, are those issues > >> sufficient to > >> > ban women from reciting Veda? I don't think so. In fact, the > >> factors I wrote > >> > above are probably irrelevant given the superficial understanding > >> of Veda > >> > present at this time and the superficial recitation of Veda that we > >> find > >> > these days. > >> > > >> > But, if you want to be sure and do not want to misguide anyone, it > >> is better > >> > to not give any advice. Leave it to one's sadguru. If you have a > >> sadguru who > >> > is guiding your spiritual sadhana, surrender and do as your guru > >> says! What > >> > is good for goose may not be good for gander. What goose's guru > >> taught to > >> > goose may be good only for goose and not for gander. Gander will do > >> well to > >> > follow gander's guru. > >> > > >> > I think I rambled enough for today... :-) > >> > > >> > Best regards, > >> > Narasimha > >> > ------------------------------- > >> > Homam manual and audio: http://www.VedicAstrologer.org/homam > >> > Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro.home.comcast.net > >> > Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAstrologer.org > >> > Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagannath.org > >> > ------------------------------- > >> > > >> > - > >> > " rohinipurang " <rohinipurang@> > >> > > >> > Saturday, February 24, 2007 12:18 PM > >> > reading/learning the veda > >> > > >> > > >> > >A warm namaste to everyone! > >> > > > >> > > I have heard it said that women are not allowed to > >> read/know/recite the > >> > > vedas. Can anyone tell me if this is true? If so, is there any > >> mantra > >> > > (or evidence)in any of the Vedas which says this? > >> > > > >> > > I ask this not as a disrespectful argument but as a genuine > >> desire to > >> > > know what the text actually says, if it does indeed say anything > >> at all > >> > > on the subject. > >> > > > >> > > Also I have heard that a Brahmin who does have the right to > >> recite/use > >> > > the mantras has to follow a certain (very strict) way of life. Is > >> this > >> > > too mentioned in any of these 'books' (for want of a better word)? > >> > > > >> > > Regards > >> > > > >> > > Rohini > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 8, 2009 Report Share Posted April 8, 2009 Namaste Gauthama rejects to teach a boy a he is not a brahmin. This is incorrect. The Chandogya Upanishad mentions this incident. The boy came to Gauthama Rishi for knowledge and the Rishi asked him for his gotra. The boy goes back to his mother and finds out that his mother is not aware of who the father was. The boy comes back and says the same to Rishi Guathama, who says that he shall teach the boy as the boy belongs to the gotra of truth, and thus by default is a Brahmana. “Thereupon the boy went to Gautama and asked to be accepted as a student. ‘Of what family are you, my lad?’ inquired the sage. Satyakama replied: ‘I asked my mother what my family name was, and she answered: “I do not know. In my youth I was a servant and worked in many places. I do not know who was your father. I am Jabala, and you are Satyakama. Call yourself Satyakama Jabala!†I am therefore Satyakama Jabala, sir.’ Then said the sage: ‘None but a true Brahmin would have spoken thus. Go and fetch fuel, for I will teach you. You have not swerved from the truth.’†(Chandogya Upanishad 4:4:3,4) So that is one sure shot, explicit case, where a Rishi shows that the tag Brahmin is more by action than by birth. -Regards Rajarshi The upsurge (of consciousness) is Bhairava - Shiva Sutra--- On Thu, 9/4/09, Vijaya Kumara Lakshmi Narayana Rao Pingali <pvklnrao wrote: Vijaya Kumara Lakshmi Narayana Rao Pingali <pvklnrao Cast system ... Date: Thursday, 9 April, 2009, 12:37 AM If casts are determined by the nature, why did Parasurama deny Karna to teach. More over, Parasurama identifies him as a kshatriya. Karna did not show any hunger for power. He showed the qualities of a sudra/sevaka. The only kshatriya quality demonstrated by him is the liking for wars!Gauthama rejects to teach a boy a he is not a brahmin.Rama killed a sudra (not sure if this was reliable) for doing tapam. How do we justify all of these?Also, Ravana is a brahmin (Rama gets Brahmahatya patakam after killing Ravana) even as all he showed is the huger for power and ego. He has learn vedas but, mere learning does not make him a brahmana. Going by that, Karna acted like a brahmin and learnt quite a few things from Parasurama. But, Parasurama calls him a kshatriya and banishes him.Drona was a brahmin, but he showed hatred and anger not suitable for a brahmin (towards Drupada).Best regards,Vijay., "Narasimha P.V.R. Rao" <pvr wrote:>> Namaste,> > Dharma shastras try to define dharma universally, undoubtedly an unenviable > task. Even if one does a great job for the given desa, kaala and paatra > (place, era and class), the rules given cannot be perfect. They can be taken > as a general guideline, but they cannnot be absolute.> > Regarding non-Brahmins:> > If a person is interested in Veda and studies Veda, one IS a Brahmana. One > who is interested in knowledge and spirituality is a Brahmana. One who is > interested in power and authority over others is a Kshatriya. One who is > interested in wealth is a Vaishya. One who is interested in pleasures in a > Shoodra (that is why phala sruti of Vishnu sahasra naama stotra promises > these respective results to the four varnas - see "vedaantago braahmanah > syaat..."). Valmiki was born in a shoodra family, but became a brahmana and > a maharshi later. Vishwamitra was born in a kshatriya family, but became a > brahmana and a maharshi later and many veda hymns were actually revealed to > the world through him!> > The meaning of saying that only a Brahmana can deal with veda is that only a > person interested in knowledge and spiritual progress (and not money or > power or pleasures) can learn and teach veda. Others (interested in money, > power and pleasures) are not qualified for self-realization. It has nothing > to do with the the birth caste.> > Regarding women:> > Veda is for self-knowledge. Study and contemplation of Veda is for > self-realization. Spiritually speaking, Shiva is the potential energy and > Shakti is the kinetic energy. Men are supposed to have more Shiva than > Shakti in them and women are supposed to have more Shakti than Shiva in > them. If a man is really like Shiva, he can study and experience Veda and > realize self and his wife can realize self through him. That would be a good > strategy.> > However, men are hardly like Shiva today. In fact, there is very little > Shiva in anyone and there is more Shakti (kinetic energy) in women as well > as men today. Moreover, most men do not do any spiritual sadhana at all. The > rules make no sense anymore.> > In the old days, rishis pursued knowledge and spiritual sadhana, while their > wives ran the houses. The sadhana of rishis was sufficient for them and > their wives. Today's men are different. Whenever I go to a poojas at the > houses of friends, I see all women gathering at the pooja and chanting > mantras, while all men sit elsewhere and chat about sports, politics and > movies. The world is a changed place. Women cannot rely on their men to do > spiritual sadhana for them and they are on their own. Men are not like > Shiva. Rules composed long back do not apply anymore.> > Upasani maharaj, who was worshipped by Shirdi Sai Baba himself as god, was a > great Vedic scholar who taught veda and yajna to women! I respect his > judgment and its relevance today more than the relevance of an ancient > dharma shastra. Universal dharma needs to be redefined from time to time by > realized souls. It becomes stale otherwise.> > This is the problem with some religions that are based on a written text. > The text may have been good for a specific desa-kaala-paatra, but may have > become stale now. Fortunately, sanatana dharma (aka Hinduism) does not > depend on one specific text. We emphasize sadhana to realize truth rather > than adherence to a text. This emphasis on active sadhana ensured a > continuous flow of realized souls. We had many realized souls (like > Jnaneshwar Maharaj, Samartha Ramadas, Sai Baba, Ramakrishna Paramahamsa, > Ramana Maharshi etc) from time to time and they refined our understanding. > Religions that emphasized adherence to a text rather than active sadhana to > realize truth depended on an old text put together by one realized soul and > they may have become stale now.> > Best regards,> Narasimha> ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -> Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ homam> Do Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ tarpana> Spirituality: http://groups. / group/vedic- wisdom> Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro. home.comcast. net> Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAst rologer.org> Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagan nath.org> ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- - > > - > "Jagmohan Nanaware" <jagmohan_nanaware@ ...>> <>> Tuesday, April 07, 2009 1:57 PM> Women reading Vedas (Re: reading/learning the veda)> > > > Namaste,> >> > Excellent explanation from you Narasimha-ji!> >> > Just have some doubts:> > The code of conduct about reciting vedas (who can do it) are prescribed > > in Manusmriti. Is that correct? As per Manusmriti:> > a. The teaching of vedas can be done only by Brahmin and no one> > else.> > b. Women and some sections of society are not given rights to> > recite, listen, read, translate, comment on vedas.> >> > However, If I am not wrong Manusmriti does not talk about code of conduct > > in different yugas (Satya, Treta, Dwapar, Kali). Is there any reference to > > this? Can you throw some light on this?> >> > Ofcourse the best reference to description of different yugas I have found > > is in "Guru Charitra".> >> > regards,> >> > Jagmohan> >> > , "rohinipurang" <rohinipurang@ > > > wrote:> >>> >> Thank you Narasimha> >>> >> Your 'rambling' was indeed very interesting and enlightening, esp abt> >> the stree sharira. So, I take it, that there is nothing in the vedic> >> text itself debarring women.> >>> >> Can you recommend a good, unbiased translation of the entire vedic> >> text in English or Hindi?> >>> >> Regards> >>> >> Rohini> >>> >>> >> , "Narasimha P.V.R. Rao" <pvr@>> >> wrote:> >> >> >> > Namaste friends,> >> >> >> > We are living in Kali yuga and Kali is becoming deeper. We cannot> >> trust that> >> > every standard convention is based on sound knowledge.> >> >> >> > * * *> >> >> >> > One of my favorite sooktas is "Devi Sooktam" from Rigveda. It is> >> attributed> >> > to Vagambhrani, a female rishi. She felt oneness with the Divine> >> Mother in> >> > Her undivided supreme form (nearly nirguna form) and the riks of> >> Devi> >> > sooktam were revealed to her then. Those eight riks are really> >> fantastic.> >> >> >> > There are other riks in Rigveda that were revealed to the world by> >> female> >> > rishis. We use those riks in our worship, meditation, homas and> >> other> >> > sadhanas. Yet, should we insist that women cannot recite Veda? If> >> > Vagambhrani is amid us again as a woman, should we stop her from> >> reciting> >> > Devi sooktam?> >> >> >> > * * *> >> >> >> > Jnaneshwar (or Jnanadev) was a great saint from Maharashtra from> >> about 800> >> > years back. He was a great devotee of Krishna and was a fully self-> >> realized> >> > master at a young age. He reformed religion and corrected some> >> corrupt> >> > traditions. He once made a buffalo chant Veda.> >> >> >> > He started to recite Veda and the head of the Brahmin council> >> forbade him> >> > because he was not "qualified" to recite Veda. Jnaneshwar insisted> >> that> >> > everyone had a right to recite Veda and the head of the council> >> disagreed.> >> > As he started reciting Veda, the Brahmins tried to stop him by> >> closing his> >> > mouth. Then a buffalo standing next to him took over and chanted> >> Veda.> >> > Astounded by the miracle, the Brahmins fell at his feet. The head> >> apologized> >> > and said, "we are masquerading as the keepers of Veda, but you have> >> the real> >> > understanding and mastery of Veda".> >> >> >> > Jnaneshwar taught the equality of all and did not distinguish> >> between people> >> > based on caste, creed or gender. He considered BhagavadGita as the> >> essence> >> > of Veda and wrote a fantastic commentary on it. His commentary> >> departs from> >> > the standard Dwaitic (dualistic) point of view adopted by most> >> Vaishnava> >> > gurus and uses a purely Adwaitic (non-dualistic) point of view. It> >> is a> >> > priceless and timeless masterpiece.> >> >> >> > * * *> >> >> >> > One Swamiji who was at my house last month had an interesting take.> >> He said> >> > that the belief that women cannot recite Vedas is based on a> >> > misinterpretation. He said that the physical body we have is called> >> the> >> > "stree sareera" and the inner body we have is called the "purusha> >> sareera".> >> > He said that the physical body comes from mother and the soul comes> >> from> >> > father and that is why they are called so. The soul or inner self> >> is the> >> > thousand-headed purusha within us (described in purusha sooktam).> >> >> >> > He said that Veda is supposed to be recited with the purusha> >> sareera.> >> > According to him, it does not mean that women cannot read it.> >> Whether men or> >> > women, they have to read it with the purusha sareera, i.e. inner> >> body, and> >> > not just with the physical body. So, according to him, the standard> >> > convention is based on a flawed understanding. According to him,> >> one simply> >> > reciting Veda with the mouth without the correct internal> >> understanding is> >> > only reading with the "stree sareera" and hence not doing the right> >> thing.> >> >> >> > * * *> >> >> >> > In fact, reciting Veda and chanting the verses is one thing and> >> > understanding them is quite another. When we make sound, there are> >> four> >> > levels of it - vaikhari, madhyama, pasyanti and para. Vibration of> >> material> >> > belonging to the gross body (sthoola sareera) produces vaikhari> >> level of> >> > sound and it is heard through the senses belonging to the gross> >> body (ears).> >> > But vibrations at the level of subtle body (sookshma sareera) and> >> vibrations> >> > at the level of astral body (kaarana sareera) are also there and> >> can be> >> > perceived thorough subtle perception.> >> >> >> > If one is chanting "Om Namo Narayanaya" and thinking of some> >> mundane> >> > matters, the vibrations produced at levels above vaikhari will not> >> be> >> > auspicious. There is so much stress on what we do physically and> >> people> >> > forget that what happens at the other layers of existence is> >> equally, if not> >> > more, important!> >> >> >> > If you produce the correct vibrations at all levels (not just> >> physical)> >> > while "reciting" any Vedic mantra, you can truly "experience" the> >> mantra. A> >> > full experience of a single Vedic mantra may be sufficient to alter> >> one's> >> > life! The mantras of Veda are most powerful. Unfortunately, so much> >> of Vedic> >> > scholarship these days is only superficial (but it has to be> >> encouraged,> >> > because it will keep atleast one level of knowledge alive).> >> >> >> > Forget the man vs woman controversy. The difference between genders> >> is only> >> > in the gross body. When you go to the subtle body and astral body,> >> there is> >> > no difference at all. One should realize that the role of gross> >> body is too> >> > limited in the correct recitation/experien ce of a Vedic mantra. It> >> is the> >> > purity of the subtle body and the lightness of the astral body that> >> are far> >> > more important.> >> >> >> > * * *> >> >> >> > To be fair and balanced, I need to throw light on the other angle.> >> Like I> >> > said, Vedic mantras are too powerful. They are capable of producing> >> a full> >> > self-realization (actually the sole purpose of Veda is "to know> >> self").> >> > However, given the depth of Kali Yuga, it is difficult for it to> >> come in one> >> > shot. It comes in steps. When one is half way down the path, one> >> has to be> >> > careful and under the vigilant guidance of a sadguru.> >> >> >> > When one is not fully realized and the gross body has a role to> >> play, there> >> > are some differences based on the gender that come into play.> >> >> >> > If a lady carrying a baby in her womb has certain spiritual> >> experiences> >> > (which a good Vedic chanting is capable of bringing), there can> >> even be an> >> > abortion (or a great siddha being born, on the other extreme).> >> >> >> > There is another subtle factor. Good Vedic chanting can bring an> >> awakening> >> > of Kundalini (i.e. an awakening of self-awareness) and an ascent of> >> > Kundalini (i.e. an ascent of self-awareness) . Though some people> >> may have a> >> > wrong impression about Kundalini because of the corrupt practices> >> of a> >> > section of so-called "Kundalini sadhakas", the fact is that> >> Kundalini merely> >> > represents one's ego-consciousness. When one casually associates> >> the body> >> > one sees with "self", Kundalini is asleep in the Mooladhara chakra.> >> As one's> >> > self-awareness becomes more and more refined, Kundalini ascends in> >> the> >> > sookshma sareera. As one has a perfect self-realization, Kundalini> >> reaches> >> > Sahasrara. Whether one thinks in these terms or not, Kundalini> >> moves based> >> > on how evolved one is. Whether one is into Bhakti yoga or Raja yoga> >> or Karma> >> > yoga or Jnana yoga does not matter. All paths lead to an awareness> >> of a more> >> > and more correct concept of self as time progresses and a full> >> > self-realization finally. Accordingly, Kundalini rises more and> >> more and> >> > reaches Sahasrara at the end.> >> >> >> > During the period when Kundalini is stuck in Swadhishthana chakra,> >> sexual> >> > drive can multiply. Several yogis get stuck in this stage and fail> >> the tests> >> > to progress further. In general, women have a higher drive than> >> men. If that> >> > drive multiplies, there can be a difficult situation. However, it> >> really> >> > depends on the individual and we cannot generalize.> >> >> >> > Thus, there are some practical difficulties on the way, which may> >> have made> >> > some people come up with some rules. However, are those issues> >> sufficient to> >> > ban women from reciting Veda? I don't think so. In fact, the> >> factors I wrote> >> > above are probably irrelevant given the superficial understanding> >> of Veda> >> > present at this time and the superficial recitation of Veda that we> >> find> >> > these days.> >> >> >> > But, if you want to be sure and do not want to misguide anyone, it> >> is better> >> > to not give any advice. Leave it to one's sadguru. If you have a> >> sadguru who> >> > is guiding your spiritual sadhana, surrender and do as your guru> >> says! What> >> > is good for goose may not be good for gander. What goose's guru> >> taught to> >> > goose may be good only for goose and not for gander. Gander will do> >> well to> >> > follow gander's guru.> >> >> >> > I think I rambled enough for today... :-)> >> >> >> > Best regards,> >> > Narasimha> >> > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -> >> > Homam manual and audio: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ homam> >> > Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro. home.comcast. net> >> > Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAst rologer.org> >> > Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagan nath.org> >> > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -> >> >> >> > - > >> > "rohinipurang" <rohinipurang@ >> >> > <>> >> > Saturday, February 24, 2007 12:18 PM> >> > reading/learning the veda> >> >> >> >> >> > >A warm namaste to everyone!> >> > >> >> > > I have heard it said that women are not allowed to> >> read/know/recite the> >> > > vedas. Can anyone tell me if this is true? If so, is there any> >> mantra> >> > > (or evidence)in any of the Vedas which says this?> >> > >> >> > > I ask this not as a disrespectful argument but as a genuine> >> desire to> >> > > know what the text actually says, if it does indeed say anything> >> at all> >> > > on the subject.> >> > >> >> > > Also I have heard that a Brahmin who does have the right to> >> recite/use> >> > > the mantras has to follow a certain (very strict) way of life. Is> >> this> >> > > too mentioned in any of these 'books' (for want of a better word)?> >> > >> >> > > Regards> >> > >> >> > > Rohini> Add more friends to your messenger and enjoy! Invite them now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 10, 2009 Report Share Posted April 10, 2009 Namaste Friends, Queries of Vijay are note worthy. I share the same doubts. It is not easy to solve the riddle of cast system in its original form becuase as back as Mahabharata days, Ashwatthma was not reduced to Shudra cast even after doing the horrible karma. Example of Valmiki and Vishwamitra are stray examples but what about normal people of those days? With which cast tag they used to live their daily lives? and one more thing is that we don't find one example of A Brahmin being degraded to other cast such as for exaple say Shudra. Warm Regards, Utpal , rajarshi nandy <rajarshi14 wrote: > > Namaste >  > Gauthama rejects to teach a boy a he is not a brahmin. >  > This is incorrect. >  > The Chandogya Upanishad mentions this incident. The boy came to Gauthama Rishi for knowledge and the Rishi asked him for his gotra. The boy goes back to his mother and finds out that his mother is not aware of who the father was. The boy comes back and says the same to Rishi Guathama, who says that he shall teach the boy as the boy belongs to the gotra of truth, and thus by default is a Brahmana. >  >  > “Thereupon the boy went to Gautama and asked to be accepted as a student. ‘Of what family are you, my lad?’ inquired the sage. Satyakama replied: ‘I asked my mother what my family name was, and she answered: “I do not know. In my youth I was a servant and worked in many places. I do not know who was your father. I am Jabala, and you are Satyakama. Call yourself Satyakama Jabala!†I am therefore Satyakama Jabala, sir.’ Then said the sage: ‘None but a true Brahmin would have spoken thus. Go and fetch fuel, for I will teach you. You have not swerved from the truth.’†(Chandogya Upanishad 4:4:3,4) >  >  > So that is one sure shot, explicit case, where a Rishi shows that the tag Brahmin is more by action than by birth. >  > -Regards >  Rajarshi > > > The upsurge (of consciousness) is Bhairava - Shiva Sutra > > --- On Thu, 9/4/09, Vijaya Kumara Lakshmi Narayana Rao Pingali <pvklnrao wrote: > > > Vijaya Kumara Lakshmi Narayana Rao Pingali <pvklnrao > Cast system ... > > Thursday, 9 April, 2009, 12:37 AM > > If casts are determined by the nature, why did Parasurama deny Karna to teach. More over, Parasurama identifies him as a kshatriya. Karna did not show any hunger for power. He showed the qualities of a sudra/sevaka. The only kshatriya quality demonstrated by him is the liking for wars! > > Gauthama rejects to teach a boy a he is not a brahmin. > Rama killed a sudra (not sure if this was reliable) for doing tapam. How do we justify all of these? > > Also, Ravana is a brahmin (Rama gets Brahmahatya patakam after killing Ravana) even as all he showed is the huger for power and ego. He has learn vedas but, mere learning does not make him a brahmana. Going by that, Karna acted like a brahmin and learnt quite a few things from Parasurama. But, Parasurama calls him a kshatriya and banishes him. > > Drona was a brahmin, but he showed hatred and anger not suitable for a brahmin (towards Drupada). > > Best regards, > Vijay. > , " Narasimha P.V.R. Rao " <pvr@> wrote: > > > > Namaste, > > > > Dharma shastras try to define dharma universally, undoubtedly an unenviable > > task. Even if one does a great job for the given desa, kaala and paatra > > (place, era and class), the rules given cannot be perfect. They can be taken > > as a general guideline, but they cannnot be absolute. > > > > Regarding non-Brahmins: > > > > If a person is interested in Veda and studies Veda, one IS a Brahmana. One > > who is interested in knowledge and spirituality is a Brahmana. One who is > > interested in power and authority over others is a Kshatriya. One who is > > interested in wealth is a Vaishya. One who is interested in pleasures in a > > Shoodra (that is why phala sruti of Vishnu sahasra naama stotra promises > > these respective results to the four varnas - see " vedaantago braahmanah > > syaat... " ). Valmiki was born in a shoodra family, but became a brahmana and > > a maharshi later. Vishwamitra was born in a kshatriya family, but became a > > brahmana and a maharshi later and many veda hymns were actually revealed to > > the world through him! > > > > The meaning of saying that only a Brahmana can deal with veda is that only a > > person interested in knowledge and spiritual progress (and not money or > > power or pleasures) can learn and teach veda. Others (interested in money, > > power and pleasures) are not qualified for self-realization. It has nothing > > to do with the the birth caste. > > > > Regarding women: > > > > Veda is for self-knowledge. Study and contemplation of Veda is for > > self-realization. Spiritually speaking, Shiva is the potential energy and > > Shakti is the kinetic energy. Men are supposed to have more Shiva than > > Shakti in them and women are supposed to have more Shakti than Shiva in > > them. If a man is really like Shiva, he can study and experience Veda and > > realize self and his wife can realize self through him. That would be a good > > strategy. > > > > However, men are hardly like Shiva today. In fact, there is very little > > Shiva in anyone and there is more Shakti (kinetic energy) in women as well > > as men today. Moreover, most men do not do any spiritual sadhana at all. The > > rules make no sense anymore. > > > > In the old days, rishis pursued knowledge and spiritual sadhana, while their > > wives ran the houses. The sadhana of rishis was sufficient for them and > > their wives. Today's men are different. Whenever I go to a poojas at the > > houses of friends, I see all women gathering at the pooja and chanting > > mantras, while all men sit elsewhere and chat about sports, politics and > > movies. The world is a changed place. Women cannot rely on their men to do > > spiritual sadhana for them and they are on their own. Men are not like > > Shiva. Rules composed long back do not apply anymore. > > > > Upasani maharaj, who was worshipped by Shirdi Sai Baba himself as god, was a > > great Vedic scholar who taught veda and yajna to women! I respect his > > judgment and its relevance today more than the relevance of an ancient > > dharma shastra. Universal dharma needs to be redefined from time to time by > > realized souls. It becomes stale otherwise. > > > > This is the problem with some religions that are based on a written text. > > The text may have been good for a specific desa-kaala-paatra, but may have > > become stale now. Fortunately, sanatana dharma (aka Hinduism) does not > > depend on one specific text. We emphasize sadhana to realize truth rather > > than adherence to a text. This emphasis on active sadhana ensured a > > continuous flow of realized souls. We had many realized souls (like > > Jnaneshwar Maharaj, Samartha Ramadas, Sai Baba, Ramakrishna Paramahamsa, > > Ramana Maharshi etc) from time to time and they refined our understanding. > > Religions that emphasized adherence to a text rather than active sadhana to > > realize truth depended on an old text put together by one realized soul and > > they may have become stale now. > > > > Best regards, > > Narasimha > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- - > > Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ homam > > Do Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ tarpana > > Spirituality: http://groups. / group/vedic- wisdom > > Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro. home.comcast. net > > Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAst rologer.org > > Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagan nath.org > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- - > > > > - > > " Jagmohan Nanaware " <jagmohan_nanaware@ ...> > > <> > > Tuesday, April 07, 2009 1:57 PM > > Women reading Vedas (Re: reading/learning the veda) > > > > > > > Namaste, > > > > > > Excellent explanation from you Narasimha-ji! > > > > > > Just have some doubts: > > > The code of conduct about reciting vedas (who can do it) are prescribed > > > in Manusmriti. Is that correct? As per Manusmriti: > > > a. The teaching of vedas can be done only by Brahmin and no one > > > else. > > > b. Women and some sections of society are not given rights to > > > recite, listen, read, translate, comment on vedas. > > > > > > However, If I am not wrong Manusmriti does not talk about code of conduct > > > in different yugas (Satya, Treta, Dwapar, Kali). Is there any reference to > > > this? Can you throw some light on this? > > > > > > Ofcourse the best reference to description of different yugas I have found > > > is in " Guru Charitra " . > > > > > > regards, > > > > > > Jagmohan > > > > > > , " rohinipurang " <rohinipurang@ > > > > wrote: > > >> > > >> Thank you Narasimha > > >> > > >> Your 'rambling' was indeed very interesting and enlightening, esp abt > > >> the stree sharira. So, I take it, that there is nothing in the vedic > > >> text itself debarring women. > > >> > > >> Can you recommend a good, unbiased translation of the entire vedic > > >> text in English or Hindi? > > >> > > >> Regards > > >> > > >> Rohini > > >> > > >> > > >> , " Narasimha P.V.R. Rao " <pvr@> > > >> wrote: > > >> > > > >> > Namaste friends, > > >> > > > >> > We are living in Kali yuga and Kali is becoming deeper. We cannot > > >> trust that > > >> > every standard convention is based on sound knowledge. > > >> > > > >> > * * * > > >> > > > >> > One of my favorite sooktas is " Devi Sooktam " from Rigveda. It is > > >> attributed > > >> > to Vagambhrani, a female rishi. She felt oneness with the Divine > > >> Mother in > > >> > Her undivided supreme form (nearly nirguna form) and the riks of > > >> Devi > > >> > sooktam were revealed to her then. Those eight riks are really > > >> fantastic. > > >> > > > >> > There are other riks in Rigveda that were revealed to the world by > > >> female > > >> > rishis. We use those riks in our worship, meditation, homas and > > >> other > > >> > sadhanas. Yet, should we insist that women cannot recite Veda? If > > >> > Vagambhrani is amid us again as a woman, should we stop her from > > >> reciting > > >> > Devi sooktam? > > >> > > > >> > * * * > > >> > > > >> > Jnaneshwar (or Jnanadev) was a great saint from Maharashtra from > > >> about 800 > > >> > years back. He was a great devotee of Krishna and was a fully self- > > >> realized > > >> > master at a young age. He reformed religion and corrected some > > >> corrupt > > >> > traditions. He once made a buffalo chant Veda. > > >> > > > >> > He started to recite Veda and the head of the Brahmin council > > >> forbade him > > >> > because he was not " qualified " to recite Veda. Jnaneshwar insisted > > >> that > > >> > everyone had a right to recite Veda and the head of the council > > >> disagreed. > > >> > As he started reciting Veda, the Brahmins tried to stop him by > > >> closing his > > >> > mouth. Then a buffalo standing next to him took over and chanted > > >> Veda. > > >> > Astounded by the miracle, the Brahmins fell at his feet. The head > > >> apologized > > >> > and said, " we are masquerading as the keepers of Veda, but you have > > >> the real > > >> > understanding and mastery of Veda " . > > >> > > > >> > Jnaneshwar taught the equality of all and did not distinguish > > >> between people > > >> > based on caste, creed or gender. He considered BhagavadGita as the > > >> essence > > >> > of Veda and wrote a fantastic commentary on it. His commentary > > >> departs from > > >> > the standard Dwaitic (dualistic) point of view adopted by most > > >> Vaishnava > > >> > gurus and uses a purely Adwaitic (non-dualistic) point of view. It > > >> is a > > >> > priceless and timeless masterpiece. > > >> > > > >> > * * * > > >> > > > >> > One Swamiji who was at my house last month had an interesting take. > > >> He said > > >> > that the belief that women cannot recite Vedas is based on a > > >> > misinterpretation. He said that the physical body we have is called > > >> the > > >> > " stree sareera " and the inner body we have is called the " purusha > > >> sareera " . > > >> > He said that the physical body comes from mother and the soul comes > > >> from > > >> > father and that is why they are called so. The soul or inner self > > >> is the > > >> > thousand-headed purusha within us (described in purusha sooktam). > > >> > > > >> > He said that Veda is supposed to be recited with the purusha > > >> sareera. > > >> > According to him, it does not mean that women cannot read it. > > >> Whether men or > > >> > women, they have to read it with the purusha sareera, i.e. inner > > >> body, and > > >> > not just with the physical body. So, according to him, the standard > > >> > convention is based on a flawed understanding. According to him, > > >> one simply > > >> > reciting Veda with the mouth without the correct internal > > >> understanding is > > >> > only reading with the " stree sareera " and hence not doing the right > > >> thing. > > >> > > > >> > * * * > > >> > > > >> > In fact, reciting Veda and chanting the verses is one thing and > > >> > understanding them is quite another. When we make sound, there are > > >> four > > >> > levels of it - vaikhari, madhyama, pasyanti and para. Vibration of > > >> material > > >> > belonging to the gross body (sthoola sareera) produces vaikhari > > >> level of > > >> > sound and it is heard through the senses belonging to the gross > > >> body (ears). > > >> > But vibrations at the level of subtle body (sookshma sareera) and > > >> vibrations > > >> > at the level of astral body (kaarana sareera) are also there and > > >> can be > > >> > perceived thorough subtle perception. > > >> > > > >> > If one is chanting " Om Namo Narayanaya " and thinking of some > > >> mundane > > >> > matters, the vibrations produced at levels above vaikhari will not > > >> be > > >> > auspicious. There is so much stress on what we do physically and > > >> people > > >> > forget that what happens at the other layers of existence is > > >> equally, if not > > >> > more, important! > > >> > > > >> > If you produce the correct vibrations at all levels (not just > > >> physical) > > >> > while " reciting " any Vedic mantra, you can truly " experience " the > > >> mantra. A > > >> > full experience of a single Vedic mantra may be sufficient to alter > > >> one's > > >> > life! The mantras of Veda are most powerful. Unfortunately, so much > > >> of Vedic > > >> > scholarship these days is only superficial (but it has to be > > >> encouraged, > > >> > because it will keep atleast one level of knowledge alive). > > >> > > > >> > Forget the man vs woman controversy. The difference between genders > > >> is only > > >> > in the gross body. When you go to the subtle body and astral body, > > >> there is > > >> > no difference at all. One should realize that the role of gross > > >> body is too > > >> > limited in the correct recitation/experien ce of a Vedic mantra. It > > >> is the > > >> > purity of the subtle body and the lightness of the astral body that > > >> are far > > >> > more important. > > >> > > > >> > * * * > > >> > > > >> > To be fair and balanced, I need to throw light on the other angle. > > >> Like I > > >> > said, Vedic mantras are too powerful. They are capable of producing > > >> a full > > >> > self-realization (actually the sole purpose of Veda is " to know > > >> self " ). > > >> > However, given the depth of Kali Yuga, it is difficult for it to > > >> come in one > > >> > shot. It comes in steps. When one is half way down the path, one > > >> has to be > > >> > careful and under the vigilant guidance of a sadguru. > > >> > > > >> > When one is not fully realized and the gross body has a role to > > >> play, there > > >> > are some differences based on the gender that come into play. > > >> > > > >> > If a lady carrying a baby in her womb has certain spiritual > > >> experiences > > >> > (which a good Vedic chanting is capable of bringing), there can > > >> even be an > > >> > abortion (or a great siddha being born, on the other extreme). > > >> > > > >> > There is another subtle factor. Good Vedic chanting can bring an > > >> awakening > > >> > of Kundalini (i.e. an awakening of self-awareness) and an ascent of > > >> > Kundalini (i.e. an ascent of self-awareness) . Though some people > > >> may have a > > >> > wrong impression about Kundalini because of the corrupt practices > > >> of a > > >> > section of so-called " Kundalini sadhakas " , the fact is that > > >> Kundalini merely > > >> > represents one's ego-consciousness. When one casually associates > > >> the body > > >> > one sees with " self " , Kundalini is asleep in the Mooladhara chakra. > > >> As one's > > >> > self-awareness becomes more and more refined, Kundalini ascends in > > >> the > > >> > sookshma sareera. As one has a perfect self-realization, Kundalini > > >> reaches > > >> > Sahasrara. Whether one thinks in these terms or not, Kundalini > > >> moves based > > >> > on how evolved one is. Whether one is into Bhakti yoga or Raja yoga > > >> or Karma > > >> > yoga or Jnana yoga does not matter. All paths lead to an awareness > > >> of a more > > >> > and more correct concept of self as time progresses and a full > > >> > self-realization finally. Accordingly, Kundalini rises more and > > >> more and > > >> > reaches Sahasrara at the end. > > >> > > > >> > During the period when Kundalini is stuck in Swadhishthana chakra, > > >> sexual > > >> > drive can multiply. Several yogis get stuck in this stage and fail > > >> the tests > > >> > to progress further. In general, women have a higher drive than > > >> men. If that > > >> > drive multiplies, there can be a difficult situation. However, it > > >> really > > >> > depends on the individual and we cannot generalize. > > >> > > > >> > Thus, there are some practical difficulties on the way, which may > > >> have made > > >> > some people come up with some rules. However, are those issues > > >> sufficient to > > >> > ban women from reciting Veda? I don't think so. In fact, the > > >> factors I wrote > > >> > above are probably irrelevant given the superficial understanding > > >> of Veda > > >> > present at this time and the superficial recitation of Veda that we > > >> find > > >> > these days. > > >> > > > >> > But, if you want to be sure and do not want to misguide anyone, it > > >> is better > > >> > to not give any advice. Leave it to one's sadguru. If you have a > > >> sadguru who > > >> > is guiding your spiritual sadhana, surrender and do as your guru > > >> says! What > > >> > is good for goose may not be good for gander. What goose's guru > > >> taught to > > >> > goose may be good only for goose and not for gander. Gander will do > > >> well to > > >> > follow gander's guru. > > >> > > > >> > I think I rambled enough for today... :-) > > >> > > > >> > Best regards, > > >> > Narasimha > > >> > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- - > > >> > Homam manual and audio: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ homam > > >> > Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro. home.comcast. net > > >> > Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAst rologer.org > > >> > Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagan nath.org > > >> > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- - > > >> > > > >> > - > > >> > " rohinipurang " <rohinipurang@ > > > >> > <> > > >> > Saturday, February 24, 2007 12:18 PM > > >> > reading/learning the veda > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > >A warm namaste to everyone! > > >> > > > > >> > > I have heard it said that women are not allowed to > > >> read/know/recite the > > >> > > vedas. Can anyone tell me if this is true? If so, is there any > > >> mantra > > >> > > (or evidence)in any of the Vedas which says this? > > >> > > > > >> > > I ask this not as a disrespectful argument but as a genuine > > >> desire to > > >> > > know what the text actually says, if it does indeed say anything > > >> at all > > >> > > on the subject. > > >> > > > > >> > > Also I have heard that a Brahmin who does have the right to > > >> recite/use > > >> > > the mantras has to follow a certain (very strict) way of life. Is > > >> this > > >> > > too mentioned in any of these 'books' (for want of a better word)? > > >> > > > > >> > > Regards > > >> > > > > >> > > Rohini > > > > > > > > > > > > > Add more friends to your messenger and enjoy! Go to http://messenger./invite/ > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 10, 2009 Report Share Posted April 10, 2009 Utpal Ji, I agree with your comments. But i have my own doubts about whether an individual can be identified by just one caste even if that has to be identified by his karma/deeds? meaning, leaving about the rishis, rajas (kings) for normal people he might be doing lot of activities like he must be doing lot of sadhana (a brahmin deed), must be working like a butcher (say as an example) performing some sudra act or a vysya act to earn money..in that case what caste can he be classified as? Thanks KK , " utpal pathak " <vedic_pathak wrote: > > Namaste Friends, > > Queries of Vijay are note worthy. I share the same doubts. It is not easy to solve the riddle of cast system in its original form becuase as back as Mahabharata days, Ashwatthma was not reduced to Shudra cast even after doing the horrible karma. > > Example of Valmiki and Vishwamitra are stray examples but what about normal people of those days? With which cast tag they used to live their daily lives? > > and one more thing is that we don't find one example of A Brahmin being degraded to other cast such as for exaple say Shudra. > > Warm Regards, > > Utpal > > > > , rajarshi nandy <rajarshi14@> wrote: > > > > Namaste > >  > > Gauthama rejects to teach a boy a he is not a brahmin. > >  > > This is incorrect. > >  > > The Chandogya Upanishad mentions this incident. The boy came to Gauthama Rishi for knowledge and the Rishi asked him for his gotra. The boy goes back to his mother and finds out that his mother is not aware of who the father was. The boy comes back and says the same to Rishi Guathama, who says that he shall teach the boy as the boy belongs to the gotra of truth, and thus by default is a Brahmana. > >  > >  > > “Thereupon the boy went to Gautama and asked to be accepted as a student. ‘Of what family are you, my lad?’ inquired the sage. Satyakama replied: ‘I asked my mother what my family name was, and she answered: “I do not know. In my youth I was a servant and worked in many places. I do not know who was your father. I am Jabala, and you are Satyakama. Call yourself Satyakama Jabala!†I am therefore Satyakama Jabala, sir.’ Then said the sage: ‘None but a true Brahmin would have spoken thus. Go and fetch fuel, for I will teach you. You have not swerved from the truth.’†(Chandogya Upanishad 4:4:3,4) > >  > >  > > So that is one sure shot, explicit case, where a Rishi shows that the tag Brahmin is more by action than by birth. > >  > > -Regards > >  Rajarshi > > > > > > The upsurge (of consciousness) is Bhairava - Shiva Sutra > > > > --- On Thu, 9/4/09, Vijaya Kumara Lakshmi Narayana Rao Pingali <pvklnrao@> wrote: > > > > > > Vijaya Kumara Lakshmi Narayana Rao Pingali <pvklnrao@> > > Cast system ... > > > > Thursday, 9 April, 2009, 12:37 AM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If casts are determined by the nature, why did Parasurama deny Karna to teach. More over, Parasurama identifies him as a kshatriya. Karna did not show any hunger for power. He showed the qualities of a sudra/sevaka. The only kshatriya quality demonstrated by him is the liking for wars! > > > > Gauthama rejects to teach a boy a he is not a brahmin. > > Rama killed a sudra (not sure if this was reliable) for doing tapam. How do we justify all of these? > > > > Also, Ravana is a brahmin (Rama gets Brahmahatya patakam after killing Ravana) even as all he showed is the huger for power and ego. He has learn vedas but, mere learning does not make him a brahmana. Going by that, Karna acted like a brahmin and learnt quite a few things from Parasurama. But, Parasurama calls him a kshatriya and banishes him. > > > > Drona was a brahmin, but he showed hatred and anger not suitable for a brahmin (towards Drupada). > > > > Best regards, > > Vijay. > > , " Narasimha P.V.R. Rao " <pvr@> wrote: > > > > > > Namaste, > > > > > > Dharma shastras try to define dharma universally, undoubtedly an unenviable > > > task. Even if one does a great job for the given desa, kaala and paatra > > > (place, era and class), the rules given cannot be perfect. They can be taken > > > as a general guideline, but they cannnot be absolute. > > > > > > Regarding non-Brahmins: > > > > > > If a person is interested in Veda and studies Veda, one IS a Brahmana. One > > > who is interested in knowledge and spirituality is a Brahmana. One who is > > > interested in power and authority over others is a Kshatriya. One who is > > > interested in wealth is a Vaishya. One who is interested in pleasures in a > > > Shoodra (that is why phala sruti of Vishnu sahasra naama stotra promises > > > these respective results to the four varnas - see " vedaantago braahmanah > > > syaat... " ). Valmiki was born in a shoodra family, but became a brahmana and > > > a maharshi later. Vishwamitra was born in a kshatriya family, but became a > > > brahmana and a maharshi later and many veda hymns were actually revealed to > > > the world through him! > > > > > > The meaning of saying that only a Brahmana can deal with veda is that only a > > > person interested in knowledge and spiritual progress (and not money or > > > power or pleasures) can learn and teach veda. Others (interested in money, > > > power and pleasures) are not qualified for self-realization. It has nothing > > > to do with the the birth caste. > > > > > > Regarding women: > > > > > > Veda is for self-knowledge. Study and contemplation of Veda is for > > > self-realization. Spiritually speaking, Shiva is the potential energy and > > > Shakti is the kinetic energy. Men are supposed to have more Shiva than > > > Shakti in them and women are supposed to have more Shakti than Shiva in > > > them. If a man is really like Shiva, he can study and experience Veda and > > > realize self and his wife can realize self through him. That would be a good > > > strategy. > > > > > > However, men are hardly like Shiva today. In fact, there is very little > > > Shiva in anyone and there is more Shakti (kinetic energy) in women as well > > > as men today. Moreover, most men do not do any spiritual sadhana at all. The > > > rules make no sense anymore. > > > > > > In the old days, rishis pursued knowledge and spiritual sadhana, while their > > > wives ran the houses. The sadhana of rishis was sufficient for them and > > > their wives. Today's men are different. Whenever I go to a poojas at the > > > houses of friends, I see all women gathering at the pooja and chanting > > > mantras, while all men sit elsewhere and chat about sports, politics and > > > movies. The world is a changed place. Women cannot rely on their men to do > > > spiritual sadhana for them and they are on their own. Men are not like > > > Shiva. Rules composed long back do not apply anymore. > > > > > > Upasani maharaj, who was worshipped by Shirdi Sai Baba himself as god, was a > > > great Vedic scholar who taught veda and yajna to women! I respect his > > > judgment and its relevance today more than the relevance of an ancient > > > dharma shastra. Universal dharma needs to be redefined from time to time by > > > realized souls. It becomes stale otherwise. > > > > > > This is the problem with some religions that are based on a written text. > > > The text may have been good for a specific desa-kaala-paatra, but may have > > > become stale now. Fortunately, sanatana dharma (aka Hinduism) does not > > > depend on one specific text. We emphasize sadhana to realize truth rather > > > than adherence to a text. This emphasis on active sadhana ensured a > > > continuous flow of realized souls. We had many realized souls (like > > > Jnaneshwar Maharaj, Samartha Ramadas, Sai Baba, Ramakrishna Paramahamsa, > > > Ramana Maharshi etc) from time to time and they refined our understanding. > > > Religions that emphasized adherence to a text rather than active sadhana to > > > realize truth depended on an old text put together by one realized soul and > > > they may have become stale now. > > > > > > Best regards, > > > Narasimha > > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- - > > > Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ homam > > > Do Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ tarpana > > > Spirituality: http://groups. / group/vedic- wisdom > > > Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro. home.comcast. net > > > Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAst rologer.org > > > Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagan nath.org > > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- - > > > > > > - > > > " Jagmohan Nanaware " <jagmohan_nanaware@ ...> > > > <> > > > Tuesday, April 07, 2009 1:57 PM > > > Women reading Vedas (Re: reading/learning the veda) > > > > > > > > > > Namaste, > > > > > > > > Excellent explanation from you Narasimha-ji! > > > > > > > > Just have some doubts: > > > > The code of conduct about reciting vedas (who can do it) are prescribed > > > > in Manusmriti. Is that correct? As per Manusmriti: > > > > a. The teaching of vedas can be done only by Brahmin and no one > > > > else. > > > > b. Women and some sections of society are not given rights to > > > > recite, listen, read, translate, comment on vedas. > > > > > > > > However, If I am not wrong Manusmriti does not talk about code of conduct > > > > in different yugas (Satya, Treta, Dwapar, Kali). Is there any reference to > > > > this? Can you throw some light on this? > > > > > > > > Ofcourse the best reference to description of different yugas I have found > > > > is in " Guru Charitra " . > > > > > > > > regards, > > > > > > > > Jagmohan > > > > > > > > , " rohinipurang " <rohinipurang@ > > > > > wrote: > > > >> > > > >> Thank you Narasimha > > > >> > > > >> Your 'rambling' was indeed very interesting and enlightening, esp abt > > > >> the stree sharira. So, I take it, that there is nothing in the vedic > > > >> text itself debarring women. > > > >> > > > >> Can you recommend a good, unbiased translation of the entire vedic > > > >> text in English or Hindi? > > > >> > > > >> Regards > > > >> > > > >> Rohini > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> , " Narasimha P.V.R. Rao " <pvr@> > > > >> wrote: > > > >> > > > > >> > Namaste friends, > > > >> > > > > >> > We are living in Kali yuga and Kali is becoming deeper. We cannot > > > >> trust that > > > >> > every standard convention is based on sound knowledge. > > > >> > > > > >> > * * * > > > >> > > > > >> > One of my favorite sooktas is " Devi Sooktam " from Rigveda. It is > > > >> attributed > > > >> > to Vagambhrani, a female rishi. She felt oneness with the Divine > > > >> Mother in > > > >> > Her undivided supreme form (nearly nirguna form) and the riks of > > > >> Devi > > > >> > sooktam were revealed to her then. Those eight riks are really > > > >> fantastic. > > > >> > > > > >> > There are other riks in Rigveda that were revealed to the world by > > > >> female > > > >> > rishis. We use those riks in our worship, meditation, homas and > > > >> other > > > >> > sadhanas. Yet, should we insist that women cannot recite Veda? If > > > >> > Vagambhrani is amid us again as a woman, should we stop her from > > > >> reciting > > > >> > Devi sooktam? > > > >> > > > > >> > * * * > > > >> > > > > >> > Jnaneshwar (or Jnanadev) was a great saint from Maharashtra from > > > >> about 800 > > > >> > years back. He was a great devotee of Krishna and was a fully self- > > > >> realized > > > >> > master at a young age. He reformed religion and corrected some > > > >> corrupt > > > >> > traditions. He once made a buffalo chant Veda. > > > >> > > > > >> > He started to recite Veda and the head of the Brahmin council > > > >> forbade him > > > >> > because he was not " qualified " to recite Veda. Jnaneshwar insisted > > > >> that > > > >> > everyone had a right to recite Veda and the head of the council > > > >> disagreed. > > > >> > As he started reciting Veda, the Brahmins tried to stop him by > > > >> closing his > > > >> > mouth. Then a buffalo standing next to him took over and chanted > > > >> Veda. > > > >> > Astounded by the miracle, the Brahmins fell at his feet. The head > > > >> apologized > > > >> > and said, " we are masquerading as the keepers of Veda, but you have > > > >> the real > > > >> > understanding and mastery of Veda " . > > > >> > > > > >> > Jnaneshwar taught the equality of all and did not distinguish > > > >> between people > > > >> > based on caste, creed or gender. He considered BhagavadGita as the > > > >> essence > > > >> > of Veda and wrote a fantastic commentary on it. His commentary > > > >> departs from > > > >> > the standard Dwaitic (dualistic) point of view adopted by most > > > >> Vaishnava > > > >> > gurus and uses a purely Adwaitic (non-dualistic) point of view. It > > > >> is a > > > >> > priceless and timeless masterpiece. > > > >> > > > > >> > * * * > > > >> > > > > >> > One Swamiji who was at my house last month had an interesting take. > > > >> He said > > > >> > that the belief that women cannot recite Vedas is based on a > > > >> > misinterpretation. He said that the physical body we have is called > > > >> the > > > >> > " stree sareera " and the inner body we have is called the " purusha > > > >> sareera " . > > > >> > He said that the physical body comes from mother and the soul comes > > > >> from > > > >> > father and that is why they are called so. The soul or inner self > > > >> is the > > > >> > thousand-headed purusha within us (described in purusha sooktam). > > > >> > > > > >> > He said that Veda is supposed to be recited with the purusha > > > >> sareera. > > > >> > According to him, it does not mean that women cannot read it. > > > >> Whether men or > > > >> > women, they have to read it with the purusha sareera, i.e. inner > > > >> body, and > > > >> > not just with the physical body. So, according to him, the standard > > > >> > convention is based on a flawed understanding. According to him, > > > >> one simply > > > >> > reciting Veda with the mouth without the correct internal > > > >> understanding is > > > >> > only reading with the " stree sareera " and hence not doing the right > > > >> thing. > > > >> > > > > >> > * * * > > > >> > > > > >> > In fact, reciting Veda and chanting the verses is one thing and > > > >> > understanding them is quite another. When we make sound, there are > > > >> four > > > >> > levels of it - vaikhari, madhyama, pasyanti and para. Vibration of > > > >> material > > > >> > belonging to the gross body (sthoola sareera) produces vaikhari > > > >> level of > > > >> > sound and it is heard through the senses belonging to the gross > > > >> body (ears). > > > >> > But vibrations at the level of subtle body (sookshma sareera) and > > > >> vibrations > > > >> > at the level of astral body (kaarana sareera) are also there and > > > >> can be > > > >> > perceived thorough subtle perception. > > > >> > > > > >> > If one is chanting " Om Namo Narayanaya " and thinking of some > > > >> mundane > > > >> > matters, the vibrations produced at levels above vaikhari will not > > > >> be > > > >> > auspicious. There is so much stress on what we do physically and > > > >> people > > > >> > forget that what happens at the other layers of existence is > > > >> equally, if not > > > >> > more, important! > > > >> > > > > >> > If you produce the correct vibrations at all levels (not just > > > >> physical) > > > >> > while " reciting " any Vedic mantra, you can truly " experience " the > > > >> mantra. A > > > >> > full experience of a single Vedic mantra may be sufficient to alter > > > >> one's > > > >> > life! The mantras of Veda are most powerful. Unfortunately, so much > > > >> of Vedic > > > >> > scholarship these days is only superficial (but it has to be > > > >> encouraged, > > > >> > because it will keep atleast one level of knowledge alive). > > > >> > > > > >> > Forget the man vs woman controversy. The difference between genders > > > >> is only > > > >> > in the gross body. When you go to the subtle body and astral body, > > > >> there is > > > >> > no difference at all. One should realize that the role of gross > > > >> body is too > > > >> > limited in the correct recitation/experien ce of a Vedic mantra. It > > > >> is the > > > >> > purity of the subtle body and the lightness of the astral body that > > > >> are far > > > >> > more important. > > > >> > > > > >> > * * * > > > >> > > > > >> > To be fair and balanced, I need to throw light on the other angle. > > > >> Like I > > > >> > said, Vedic mantras are too powerful. They are capable of producing > > > >> a full > > > >> > self-realization (actually the sole purpose of Veda is " to know > > > >> self " ). > > > >> > However, given the depth of Kali Yuga, it is difficult for it to > > > >> come in one > > > >> > shot. It comes in steps. When one is half way down the path, one > > > >> has to be > > > >> > careful and under the vigilant guidance of a sadguru. > > > >> > > > > >> > When one is not fully realized and the gross body has a role to > > > >> play, there > > > >> > are some differences based on the gender that come into play. > > > >> > > > > >> > If a lady carrying a baby in her womb has certain spiritual > > > >> experiences > > > >> > (which a good Vedic chanting is capable of bringing), there can > > > >> even be an > > > >> > abortion (or a great siddha being born, on the other extreme). > > > >> > > > > >> > There is another subtle factor. Good Vedic chanting can bring an > > > >> awakening > > > >> > of Kundalini (i.e. an awakening of self-awareness) and an ascent of > > > >> > Kundalini (i.e. an ascent of self-awareness) . Though some people > > > >> may have a > > > >> > wrong impression about Kundalini because of the corrupt practices > > > >> of a > > > >> > section of so-called " Kundalini sadhakas " , the fact is that > > > >> Kundalini merely > > > >> > represents one's ego-consciousness. When one casually associates > > > >> the body > > > >> > one sees with " self " , Kundalini is asleep in the Mooladhara chakra. > > > >> As one's > > > >> > self-awareness becomes more and more refined, Kundalini ascends in > > > >> the > > > >> > sookshma sareera. As one has a perfect self-realization, Kundalini > > > >> reaches > > > >> > Sahasrara. Whether one thinks in these terms or not, Kundalini > > > >> moves based > > > >> > on how evolved one is. Whether one is into Bhakti yoga or Raja yoga > > > >> or Karma > > > >> > yoga or Jnana yoga does not matter. All paths lead to an awareness > > > >> of a more > > > >> > and more correct concept of self as time progresses and a full > > > >> > self-realization finally. Accordingly, Kundalini rises more and > > > >> more and > > > >> > reaches Sahasrara at the end. > > > >> > > > > >> > During the period when Kundalini is stuck in Swadhishthana chakra, > > > >> sexual > > > >> > drive can multiply. Several yogis get stuck in this stage and fail > > > >> the tests > > > >> > to progress further. In general, women have a higher drive than > > > >> men. If that > > > >> > drive multiplies, there can be a difficult situation. However, it > > > >> really > > > >> > depends on the individual and we cannot generalize. > > > >> > > > > >> > Thus, there are some practical difficulties on the way, which may > > > >> have made > > > >> > some people come up with some rules. However, are those issues > > > >> sufficient to > > > >> > ban women from reciting Veda? I don't think so. In fact, the > > > >> factors I wrote > > > >> > above are probably irrelevant given the superficial understanding > > > >> of Veda > > > >> > present at this time and the superficial recitation of Veda that we > > > >> find > > > >> > these days. > > > >> > > > > >> > But, if you want to be sure and do not want to misguide anyone, it > > > >> is better > > > >> > to not give any advice. Leave it to one's sadguru. If you have a > > > >> sadguru who > > > >> > is guiding your spiritual sadhana, surrender and do as your guru > > > >> says! What > > > >> > is good for goose may not be good for gander. What goose's guru > > > >> taught to > > > >> > goose may be good only for goose and not for gander. Gander will do > > > >> well to > > > >> > follow gander's guru. > > > >> > > > > >> > I think I rambled enough for today... :-) > > > >> > > > > >> > Best regards, > > > >> > Narasimha > > > >> > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- - > > > >> > Homam manual and audio: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ homam > > > >> > Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro. home.comcast. net > > > >> > Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAst rologer.org > > > >> > Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagan nath.org > > > >> > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- - > > > >> > > > > >> > - > > > >> > " rohinipurang " <rohinipurang@ > > > > >> > <> > > > >> > Saturday, February 24, 2007 12:18 PM > > > >> > reading/learning the veda > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > >A warm namaste to everyone! > > > >> > > > > > >> > > I have heard it said that women are not allowed to > > > >> read/know/recite the > > > >> > > vedas. Can anyone tell me if this is true? If so, is there any > > > >> mantra > > > >> > > (or evidence)in any of the Vedas which says this? > > > >> > > > > > >> > > I ask this not as a disrespectful argument but as a genuine > > > >> desire to > > > >> > > know what the text actually says, if it does indeed say anything > > > >> at all > > > >> > > on the subject. > > > >> > > > > > >> > > Also I have heard that a Brahmin who does have the right to > > > >> recite/use > > > >> > > the mantras has to follow a certain (very strict) way of life. Is > > > >> this > > > >> > > too mentioned in any of these 'books' (for want of a better word)? > > > >> > > > > > >> > > Regards > > > >> > > > > > >> > > Rohini > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Add more friends to your messenger and enjoy! Go to http://messenger./invite/ > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 10, 2009 Report Share Posted April 10, 2009 dharma vyadha was a butcher by birth, how ever, he is a very learned man and should easily qualify as a brahmin. Now, for a brahmin, butchery is a sin. But, dharma vyadha continues the same and he says it is his kula vRtti and hence he is oblised to follow the same. Prasasurama was a kshatriya by nature (I may be making a controvercy here) as he opted to fight and engage in war fare. But, still he is called a brahmin. Same with Drona. So, the kula is depend on 3 things: 1. Birth 2. vRtthi (profession) 3. pravRtthi (Nature) Dhramavyadha was a sudra by birth, and profession but brahmana by nature. Viswamitra was a kshatriya by birth. When he became a brahmin, his profession as well as nature changed. I am inclined to say the majority between the three decide the cast of the person. How ever, birth influences the other 2. If you are bought up in a sudra company you will get some the sudra qualities (like Karna getting the dasya pravRtthi). Also, you will imitate your father and mother and will most likely get into Kula vRtthi. A person born to brahmins would see his mother, father and other engasing in good karmas and will automatically develop a liking for the same. This could be the reason both people born brahmins end up brahmins by nature and profession. How ever, the % of brahminism in the so called brahmins will be going down due to the impurities in this yuga. This could be a reason, we do not see many good examples. Best regards, Vijay , " kritels " <kritels wrote: > > Utpal Ji, > > I agree with your comments. But i have my own doubts about whether an individual can be identified by just one caste even if that has to be identified by his karma/deeds? meaning, leaving about the rishis, rajas (kings) for normal people he might be doing lot of activities like he must be doing lot of sadhana (a brahmin deed), must be working like a butcher (say as an example) performing some sudra act or a vysya act to earn money..in that case what caste can he be classified as? > > Thanks > KK > > , " utpal pathak " <vedic_pathak@> wrote: > > > > Namaste Friends, > > > > Queries of Vijay are note worthy. I share the same doubts. It is not easy to solve the riddle of cast system in its original form becuase as back as Mahabharata days, Ashwatthma was not reduced to Shudra cast even after doing the horrible karma. > > > > Example of Valmiki and Vishwamitra are stray examples but what about normal people of those days? With which cast tag they used to live their daily lives? > > > > and one more thing is that we don't find one example of A Brahmin being degraded to other cast such as for exaple say Shudra. > > > > Warm Regards, > > > > Utpal > > > > > > > > , rajarshi nandy <rajarshi14@> wrote: > > > > > > Namaste > > >  > > > Gauthama rejects to teach a boy a he is not a brahmin. > > >  > > > This is incorrect. > > >  > > > The Chandogya Upanishad mentions this incident. The boy came to Gauthama Rishi for knowledge and the Rishi asked him for his gotra. The boy goes back to his mother and finds out that his mother is not aware of who the father was. The boy comes back and says the same to Rishi Guathama, who says that he shall teach the boy as the boy belongs to the gotra of truth, and thus by default is a Brahmana. > > >  > > >  > > > “Thereupon the boy went to Gautama and asked to be accepted as a student. ‘Of what family are you, my lad?’ inquired the sage. Satyakama replied: ‘I asked my mother what my family name was, and she answered: “I do not know. In my youth I was a servant and worked in many places. I do not know who was your father. I am Jabala, and you are Satyakama. Call yourself Satyakama Jabala!†I am therefore Satyakama Jabala, sir.’ Then said the sage: ‘None but a true Brahmin would have spoken thus. Go and fetch fuel, for I will teach you. You have not swerved from the truth.’†(Chandogya Upanishad 4:4:3,4) > > >  > > >  > > > So that is one sure shot, explicit case, where a Rishi shows that the tag Brahmin is more by action than by birth. > > >  > > > -Regards > > >  Rajarshi > > > > > > > > > The upsurge (of consciousness) is Bhairava - Shiva Sutra > > > > > > --- On Thu, 9/4/09, Vijaya Kumara Lakshmi Narayana Rao Pingali <pvklnrao@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > Vijaya Kumara Lakshmi Narayana Rao Pingali <pvklnrao@> > > > Cast system ... > > > > > > Thursday, 9 April, 2009, 12:37 AM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If casts are determined by the nature, why did Parasurama deny Karna to teach. More over, Parasurama identifies him as a kshatriya. Karna did not show any hunger for power. He showed the qualities of a sudra/sevaka. The only kshatriya quality demonstrated by him is the liking for wars! > > > > > > Gauthama rejects to teach a boy a he is not a brahmin. > > > Rama killed a sudra (not sure if this was reliable) for doing tapam. How do we justify all of these? > > > > > > Also, Ravana is a brahmin (Rama gets Brahmahatya patakam after killing Ravana) even as all he showed is the huger for power and ego. He has learn vedas but, mere learning does not make him a brahmana. Going by that, Karna acted like a brahmin and learnt quite a few things from Parasurama. But, Parasurama calls him a kshatriya and banishes him. > > > > > > Drona was a brahmin, but he showed hatred and anger not suitable for a brahmin (towards Drupada). > > > > > > Best regards, > > > Vijay. > > > , " Narasimha P.V.R. Rao " <pvr@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Namaste, > > > > > > > > Dharma shastras try to define dharma universally, undoubtedly an unenviable > > > > task. Even if one does a great job for the given desa, kaala and paatra > > > > (place, era and class), the rules given cannot be perfect. They can be taken > > > > as a general guideline, but they cannnot be absolute. > > > > > > > > Regarding non-Brahmins: > > > > > > > > If a person is interested in Veda and studies Veda, one IS a Brahmana. One > > > > who is interested in knowledge and spirituality is a Brahmana. One who is > > > > interested in power and authority over others is a Kshatriya. One who is > > > > interested in wealth is a Vaishya. One who is interested in pleasures in a > > > > Shoodra (that is why phala sruti of Vishnu sahasra naama stotra promises > > > > these respective results to the four varnas - see " vedaantago braahmanah > > > > syaat... " ). Valmiki was born in a shoodra family, but became a brahmana and > > > > a maharshi later. Vishwamitra was born in a kshatriya family, but became a > > > > brahmana and a maharshi later and many veda hymns were actually revealed to > > > > the world through him! > > > > > > > > The meaning of saying that only a Brahmana can deal with veda is that only a > > > > person interested in knowledge and spiritual progress (and not money or > > > > power or pleasures) can learn and teach veda. Others (interested in money, > > > > power and pleasures) are not qualified for self-realization. It has nothing > > > > to do with the the birth caste. > > > > > > > > Regarding women: > > > > > > > > Veda is for self-knowledge. Study and contemplation of Veda is for > > > > self-realization. Spiritually speaking, Shiva is the potential energy and > > > > Shakti is the kinetic energy. Men are supposed to have more Shiva than > > > > Shakti in them and women are supposed to have more Shakti than Shiva in > > > > them. If a man is really like Shiva, he can study and experience Veda and > > > > realize self and his wife can realize self through him. That would be a good > > > > strategy. > > > > > > > > However, men are hardly like Shiva today. In fact, there is very little > > > > Shiva in anyone and there is more Shakti (kinetic energy) in women as well > > > > as men today. Moreover, most men do not do any spiritual sadhana at all. The > > > > rules make no sense anymore. > > > > > > > > In the old days, rishis pursued knowledge and spiritual sadhana, while their > > > > wives ran the houses. The sadhana of rishis was sufficient for them and > > > > their wives. Today's men are different. Whenever I go to a poojas at the > > > > houses of friends, I see all women gathering at the pooja and chanting > > > > mantras, while all men sit elsewhere and chat about sports, politics and > > > > movies. The world is a changed place. Women cannot rely on their men to do > > > > spiritual sadhana for them and they are on their own. Men are not like > > > > Shiva. Rules composed long back do not apply anymore. > > > > > > > > Upasani maharaj, who was worshipped by Shirdi Sai Baba himself as god, was a > > > > great Vedic scholar who taught veda and yajna to women! I respect his > > > > judgment and its relevance today more than the relevance of an ancient > > > > dharma shastra. Universal dharma needs to be redefined from time to time by > > > > realized souls. It becomes stale otherwise. > > > > > > > > This is the problem with some religions that are based on a written text. > > > > The text may have been good for a specific desa-kaala-paatra, but may have > > > > become stale now. Fortunately, sanatana dharma (aka Hinduism) does not > > > > depend on one specific text. We emphasize sadhana to realize truth rather > > > > than adherence to a text. This emphasis on active sadhana ensured a > > > > continuous flow of realized souls. We had many realized souls (like > > > > Jnaneshwar Maharaj, Samartha Ramadas, Sai Baba, Ramakrishna Paramahamsa, > > > > Ramana Maharshi etc) from time to time and they refined our understanding. > > > > Religions that emphasized adherence to a text rather than active sadhana to > > > > realize truth depended on an old text put together by one realized soul and > > > > they may have become stale now. > > > > > > > > Best regards, > > > > Narasimha > > > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- - > > > > Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ homam > > > > Do Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ tarpana > > > > Spirituality: http://groups. / group/vedic- wisdom > > > > Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro. home.comcast. net > > > > Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAst rologer.org > > > > Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagan nath.org > > > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- - > > > > > > > > - > > > > " Jagmohan Nanaware " <jagmohan_nanaware@ ...> > > > > <> > > > > Tuesday, April 07, 2009 1:57 PM > > > > Women reading Vedas (Re: reading/learning the veda) > > > > > > > > > > > > > Namaste, > > > > > > > > > > Excellent explanation from you Narasimha-ji! > > > > > > > > > > Just have some doubts: > > > > > The code of conduct about reciting vedas (who can do it) are prescribed > > > > > in Manusmriti. Is that correct? As per Manusmriti: > > > > > a. The teaching of vedas can be done only by Brahmin and no one > > > > > else. > > > > > b. Women and some sections of society are not given rights to > > > > > recite, listen, read, translate, comment on vedas. > > > > > > > > > > However, If I am not wrong Manusmriti does not talk about code of conduct > > > > > in different yugas (Satya, Treta, Dwapar, Kali). Is there any reference to > > > > > this? Can you throw some light on this? > > > > > > > > > > Ofcourse the best reference to description of different yugas I have found > > > > > is in " Guru Charitra " . > > > > > > > > > > regards, > > > > > > > > > > Jagmohan > > > > > > > > > > , " rohinipurang " <rohinipurang@ > > > > > > wrote: > > > > >> > > > > >> Thank you Narasimha > > > > >> > > > > >> Your 'rambling' was indeed very interesting and enlightening, esp abt > > > > >> the stree sharira. So, I take it, that there is nothing in the vedic > > > > >> text itself debarring women. > > > > >> > > > > >> Can you recommend a good, unbiased translation of the entire vedic > > > > >> text in English or Hindi? > > > > >> > > > > >> Regards > > > > >> > > > > >> Rohini > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> , " Narasimha P.V.R. Rao " <pvr@> > > > > >> wrote: > > > > >> > > > > > >> > Namaste friends, > > > > >> > > > > > >> > We are living in Kali yuga and Kali is becoming deeper. We cannot > > > > >> trust that > > > > >> > every standard convention is based on sound knowledge. > > > > >> > > > > > >> > * * * > > > > >> > > > > > >> > One of my favorite sooktas is " Devi Sooktam " from Rigveda. It is > > > > >> attributed > > > > >> > to Vagambhrani, a female rishi. She felt oneness with the Divine > > > > >> Mother in > > > > >> > Her undivided supreme form (nearly nirguna form) and the riks of > > > > >> Devi > > > > >> > sooktam were revealed to her then. Those eight riks are really > > > > >> fantastic. > > > > >> > > > > > >> > There are other riks in Rigveda that were revealed to the world by > > > > >> female > > > > >> > rishis. We use those riks in our worship, meditation, homas and > > > > >> other > > > > >> > sadhanas. Yet, should we insist that women cannot recite Veda? If > > > > >> > Vagambhrani is amid us again as a woman, should we stop her from > > > > >> reciting > > > > >> > Devi sooktam? > > > > >> > > > > > >> > * * * > > > > >> > > > > > >> > Jnaneshwar (or Jnanadev) was a great saint from Maharashtra from > > > > >> about 800 > > > > >> > years back. He was a great devotee of Krishna and was a fully self- > > > > >> realized > > > > >> > master at a young age. He reformed religion and corrected some > > > > >> corrupt > > > > >> > traditions. He once made a buffalo chant Veda. > > > > >> > > > > > >> > He started to recite Veda and the head of the Brahmin council > > > > >> forbade him > > > > >> > because he was not " qualified " to recite Veda. Jnaneshwar insisted > > > > >> that > > > > >> > everyone had a right to recite Veda and the head of the council > > > > >> disagreed. > > > > >> > As he started reciting Veda, the Brahmins tried to stop him by > > > > >> closing his > > > > >> > mouth. Then a buffalo standing next to him took over and chanted > > > > >> Veda. > > > > >> > Astounded by the miracle, the Brahmins fell at his feet. The head > > > > >> apologized > > > > >> > and said, " we are masquerading as the keepers of Veda, but you have > > > > >> the real > > > > >> > understanding and mastery of Veda " . > > > > >> > > > > > >> > Jnaneshwar taught the equality of all and did not distinguish > > > > >> between people > > > > >> > based on caste, creed or gender. He considered BhagavadGita as the > > > > >> essence > > > > >> > of Veda and wrote a fantastic commentary on it. His commentary > > > > >> departs from > > > > >> > the standard Dwaitic (dualistic) point of view adopted by most > > > > >> Vaishnava > > > > >> > gurus and uses a purely Adwaitic (non-dualistic) point of view. It > > > > >> is a > > > > >> > priceless and timeless masterpiece. > > > > >> > > > > > >> > * * * > > > > >> > > > > > >> > One Swamiji who was at my house last month had an interesting take. > > > > >> He said > > > > >> > that the belief that women cannot recite Vedas is based on a > > > > >> > misinterpretation. He said that the physical body we have is called > > > > >> the > > > > >> > " stree sareera " and the inner body we have is called the " purusha > > > > >> sareera " . > > > > >> > He said that the physical body comes from mother and the soul comes > > > > >> from > > > > >> > father and that is why they are called so. The soul or inner self > > > > >> is the > > > > >> > thousand-headed purusha within us (described in purusha sooktam). > > > > >> > > > > > >> > He said that Veda is supposed to be recited with the purusha > > > > >> sareera. > > > > >> > According to him, it does not mean that women cannot read it. > > > > >> Whether men or > > > > >> > women, they have to read it with the purusha sareera, i.e. inner > > > > >> body, and > > > > >> > not just with the physical body. So, according to him, the standard > > > > >> > convention is based on a flawed understanding. According to him, > > > > >> one simply > > > > >> > reciting Veda with the mouth without the correct internal > > > > >> understanding is > > > > >> > only reading with the " stree sareera " and hence not doing the right > > > > >> thing. > > > > >> > > > > > >> > * * * > > > > >> > > > > > >> > In fact, reciting Veda and chanting the verses is one thing and > > > > >> > understanding them is quite another. When we make sound, there are > > > > >> four > > > > >> > levels of it - vaikhari, madhyama, pasyanti and para. Vibration of > > > > >> material > > > > >> > belonging to the gross body (sthoola sareera) produces vaikhari > > > > >> level of > > > > >> > sound and it is heard through the senses belonging to the gross > > > > >> body (ears). > > > > >> > But vibrations at the level of subtle body (sookshma sareera) and > > > > >> vibrations > > > > >> > at the level of astral body (kaarana sareera) are also there and > > > > >> can be > > > > >> > perceived thorough subtle perception. > > > > >> > > > > > >> > If one is chanting " Om Namo Narayanaya " and thinking of some > > > > >> mundane > > > > >> > matters, the vibrations produced at levels above vaikhari will not > > > > >> be > > > > >> > auspicious. There is so much stress on what we do physically and > > > > >> people > > > > >> > forget that what happens at the other layers of existence is > > > > >> equally, if not > > > > >> > more, important! > > > > >> > > > > > >> > If you produce the correct vibrations at all levels (not just > > > > >> physical) > > > > >> > while " reciting " any Vedic mantra, you can truly " experience " the > > > > >> mantra. A > > > > >> > full experience of a single Vedic mantra may be sufficient to alter > > > > >> one's > > > > >> > life! The mantras of Veda are most powerful. Unfortunately, so much > > > > >> of Vedic > > > > >> > scholarship these days is only superficial (but it has to be > > > > >> encouraged, > > > > >> > because it will keep atleast one level of knowledge alive). > > > > >> > > > > > >> > Forget the man vs woman controversy. The difference between genders > > > > >> is only > > > > >> > in the gross body. When you go to the subtle body and astral body, > > > > >> there is > > > > >> > no difference at all. One should realize that the role of gross > > > > >> body is too > > > > >> > limited in the correct recitation/experien ce of a Vedic mantra. It > > > > >> is the > > > > >> > purity of the subtle body and the lightness of the astral body that > > > > >> are far > > > > >> > more important. > > > > >> > > > > > >> > * * * > > > > >> > > > > > >> > To be fair and balanced, I need to throw light on the other angle. > > > > >> Like I > > > > >> > said, Vedic mantras are too powerful. They are capable of producing > > > > >> a full > > > > >> > self-realization (actually the sole purpose of Veda is " to know > > > > >> self " ). > > > > >> > However, given the depth of Kali Yuga, it is difficult for it to > > > > >> come in one > > > > >> > shot. It comes in steps. When one is half way down the path, one > > > > >> has to be > > > > >> > careful and under the vigilant guidance of a sadguru. > > > > >> > > > > > >> > When one is not fully realized and the gross body has a role to > > > > >> play, there > > > > >> > are some differences based on the gender that come into play. > > > > >> > > > > > >> > If a lady carrying a baby in her womb has certain spiritual > > > > >> experiences > > > > >> > (which a good Vedic chanting is capable of bringing), there can > > > > >> even be an > > > > >> > abortion (or a great siddha being born, on the other extreme). > > > > >> > > > > > >> > There is another subtle factor. Good Vedic chanting can bring an > > > > >> awakening > > > > >> > of Kundalini (i.e. an awakening of self-awareness) and an ascent of > > > > >> > Kundalini (i.e. an ascent of self-awareness) . Though some people > > > > >> may have a > > > > >> > wrong impression about Kundalini because of the corrupt practices > > > > >> of a > > > > >> > section of so-called " Kundalini sadhakas " , the fact is that > > > > >> Kundalini merely > > > > >> > represents one's ego-consciousness. When one casually associates > > > > >> the body > > > > >> > one sees with " self " , Kundalini is asleep in the Mooladhara chakra. > > > > >> As one's > > > > >> > self-awareness becomes more and more refined, Kundalini ascends in > > > > >> the > > > > >> > sookshma sareera. As one has a perfect self-realization, Kundalini > > > > >> reaches > > > > >> > Sahasrara. Whether one thinks in these terms or not, Kundalini > > > > >> moves based > > > > >> > on how evolved one is. Whether one is into Bhakti yoga or Raja yoga > > > > >> or Karma > > > > >> > yoga or Jnana yoga does not matter. All paths lead to an awareness > > > > >> of a more > > > > >> > and more correct concept of self as time progresses and a full > > > > >> > self-realization finally. Accordingly, Kundalini rises more and > > > > >> more and > > > > >> > reaches Sahasrara at the end. > > > > >> > > > > > >> > During the period when Kundalini is stuck in Swadhishthana chakra, > > > > >> sexual > > > > >> > drive can multiply. Several yogis get stuck in this stage and fail > > > > >> the tests > > > > >> > to progress further. In general, women have a higher drive than > > > > >> men. If that > > > > >> > drive multiplies, there can be a difficult situation. However, it > > > > >> really > > > > >> > depends on the individual and we cannot generalize. > > > > >> > > > > > >> > Thus, there are some practical difficulties on the way, which may > > > > >> have made > > > > >> > some people come up with some rules. However, are those issues > > > > >> sufficient to > > > > >> > ban women from reciting Veda? I don't think so. In fact, the > > > > >> factors I wrote > > > > >> > above are probably irrelevant given the superficial understanding > > > > >> of Veda > > > > >> > present at this time and the superficial recitation of Veda that we > > > > >> find > > > > >> > these days. > > > > >> > > > > > >> > But, if you want to be sure and do not want to misguide anyone, it > > > > >> is better > > > > >> > to not give any advice. Leave it to one's sadguru. If you have a > > > > >> sadguru who > > > > >> > is guiding your spiritual sadhana, surrender and do as your guru > > > > >> says! What > > > > >> > is good for goose may not be good for gander. What goose's guru > > > > >> taught to > > > > >> > goose may be good only for goose and not for gander. Gander will do > > > > >> well to > > > > >> > follow gander's guru. > > > > >> > > > > > >> > I think I rambled enough for today... :-) > > > > >> > > > > > >> > Best regards, > > > > >> > Narasimha > > > > >> > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- - > > > > >> > Homam manual and audio: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ homam > > > > >> > Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro. home.comcast. net > > > > >> > Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAst rologer.org > > > > >> > Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagan nath.org > > > > >> > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- - > > > > >> > > > > > >> > - > > > > >> > " rohinipurang " <rohinipurang@ > > > > > >> > <> > > > > >> > Saturday, February 24, 2007 12:18 PM > > > > >> > reading/learning the veda > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > >A warm namaste to everyone! > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > I have heard it said that women are not allowed to > > > > >> read/know/recite the > > > > >> > > vedas. Can anyone tell me if this is true? If so, is there any > > > > >> mantra > > > > >> > > (or evidence)in any of the Vedas which says this? > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > I ask this not as a disrespectful argument but as a genuine > > > > >> desire to > > > > >> > > know what the text actually says, if it does indeed say anything > > > > >> at all > > > > >> > > on the subject. > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > Also I have heard that a Brahmin who does have the right to > > > > >> recite/use > > > > >> > > the mantras has to follow a certain (very strict) way of life. Is > > > > >> this > > > > >> > > too mentioned in any of these 'books' (for want of a better word)? > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > Regards > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > Rohini > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Add more friends to your messenger and enjoy! Go to http://messenger./invite/ > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 10, 2009 Report Share Posted April 10, 2009 namaste, > So that is one sure shot, explicit case This is a very strong statement. > The Chandogya Upanishad mentions this incident. The boy came to Gauthama Rishi for knowledge and the Rishi asked him for his gotra. The boy goes back to his mother and finds out that his mother is not aware of who the father was. This is a popular misconception. Satyakama asks his mother this question upfront. The mother does not know her child's gotra. Why? In olden days, women married young, and did not ask questions such as " Who are you? What is your gotra? " to their husband. (In some areas, this is still taboo today.) Over time, the gotra would be repeated during various samskara's, she would naturally remember it. The conclusion here is that her husband, whom she served with devotion, died young. > The boy comes back and says the same to Rishi Guathama, who says that he shall teach the boy as the boy belongs to the gotra of truth, and thus by default is a Brahmana. The seers were tri-kAla-darshi-s. Gautama knew of his boy's pedigree before asking him the question. After hearing his answer, he says " A non-brahmin could not have said this . . . you have not swerved from the truth " . " satyam " is explained as " brAhmaNa-jAti-dharma " . First, you have a jAti-brAhmaNa who desires to go to a preceptor, on his own, during childhood. He then answers the preceptor's question truthfully, in his mother's own words, without embellishment. This is a very rare set of events. Of course the acharyA sees the worthy student in front of him. bhavadIyaH, ajit Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 10, 2009 Report Share Posted April 10, 2009 namaste, > If casts are determined by the nature, If caste is determined by birth, what can we do about it? Nothing. If caste is determined by profession / work, what can we do about it? For many of us, not much. If caste is determined by our tendencies, what can we do about it? Everything. Our current and future professions, as well as our future births follow our nature. So let us start there. Caste is a loaded word with a lot of connotations. What is the Sanskrit equivalent? jAti? varNa? both? neither? bhavadIyaH, ajit Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 11, 2009 Report Share Posted April 11, 2009 Namaste Ajit Bhai ! If you have an idea and deeper understanding of truth in the concept of Cast system in our Sanatan Dharma, please do share. This is a painful truth which many a times puts us in a shameful situation. hope to hear from you. Warm Regards, Utpal , Ajit Krishnan <ajit.krishnan wrote: > > namaste, > > > If casts are determined by the nature, > > > If caste is determined by birth, what can we do about it? Nothing. > If caste is determined by profession / work, what can we do about it? > For many of us, not much. > If caste is determined by our tendencies, what can we do about it? Everything. > > Our current and future professions, as well as our future births > follow our nature. So let us start there. > > Caste is a loaded word with a lot of connotations. What is the > Sanskrit equivalent? jAti? varNa? both? neither? > > bhavadIyaH, > > ajit > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 11, 2009 Report Share Posted April 11, 2009 Namaste I will share my little understanding of this issue. First, the system used to be referred to as the Varnapratha. Just like our philosophy had the system of ashramas to define an ordinary man's life, like the Brahmacharya, Grihastha, Vanaprastha etc. Now of course not every man would, I am presuming, would follow every one of the ashrams ideally. Everybody has his her own nature. So, the first idea that one must understand is that, like the Ashramas, the Varnapratha was a classification, which could be put to good use, IF, it was followed in the right spirit. As we have already seen, the varna of a person is a product of his birth (genetics/environment) and his own self-efforts. If one understands this, then things make more sense because change of own one varna is but a fundamental process in Sanatana Dharma. It not change of a personality, from a limited flawed being to something better and flawless the aim of ALL sadhana? So by that logic, anyone who is making such an effort is by default striving to be a Brahamana. And that means, the change of varna is an accepted idea of Sanatana Dharma. Because if it were not, it would be contradicting the essence of this Dharma. Often, if you think carefully, you will find that a person acts like different varnas at different times based on situations. So most people are but an amalgamation of all these four, with some tendencies predominating. Again, with time and experience, a person,s tendencies too change. Now it has been asked why is Aswathama and people like that not considered as Sudras. Well, maybe in THAT act he was a Sudra or a Chandal? Maybe in his other acts he was a Kshtriya? Maybe when he mediates he is a Brahmana? The problem that we face today, which the ancients never faces, was our fixation with tags. As the example of Gauthama Rishi accepting Satyakama as a student shows, tags were defined by the person. Out here we try to define a person based on a tag, which is wrong, I feel. Swami Vivekananda was not a brahmin by birth. But is he a 'Brahmin' or not a 'Brahmin'? And if he is not a brahmin, then there can never be any more barhmins in India. It was the writer of Manu Smriti (some scholars say his name was Brhigu, not Manu, and loived around the time of or just before Pushayamitra Sangha) who advoacted a rigid "caste system". This maybe been the necessity of the times. Infact even inside the Manusmriti, there are slokas that talk of fluidity of the system, but I guess people ignored them for their own vested interests. It is from that time onwards that the present day caste system evolved and took on a rigid, horrible, flawed shape, egged on by various sections of society out of circumstantial necessities (Like Buddhism) as well as plain self interest. The Manusmriti, specially with respect to the issue of castes, has run out its worth. No scripture, specially rule based once, can be applicable across all lengths of time. Same here. And today you have the goverments, every party, right or left, have used the castes as a vote begging tool to stay in power. All this roots in the fixation with "tags", which probably was non existent during the time of the Mahabharatas etc. So, practically, the caste system, as it stands now must end. Period. -Regards Rajarshi The upsurge (of consciousness) is Bhairava - Shiva Sutra--- On Sat, 11/4/09, utpal pathak <vedic_pathak wrote: utpal pathak <vedic_pathak Re: Cast system ... Date: Saturday, 11 April, 2009, 12:04 PM Namaste Ajit Bhai !If you have an idea and deeper understanding of truth in the concept of Cast system in our Sanatan Dharma, please do share.This is a painful truth which many a times puts us in a shameful situation.hope to hear from you.Warm Regards,Utpal, Ajit Krishnan <ajit.krishnan@ ...> wrote:>> namaste,> > > If casts are determined by the nature,> > > If caste is determined by birth, what can we do about it? Nothing.> If caste is determined by profession / work, what can we do about it?> For many of us, not much.> If caste is determined by our tendencies, what can we do about it? Everything.> > Our current and future professions, as well as our future births> follow our nature. So let us start there.> > Caste is a loaded word with a lot of connotations. What is the> Sanskrit equivalent? jAti? varNa? both? neither?> > bhavadIyaH,> > ajit> Check out the all-new Messenger 9.0! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 11, 2009 Report Share Posted April 11, 2009 Namaste Ajitji I do not agree to this analysis of the incident. Here is my view of it. Inolden days, women married young, and did not ask questions such as"Who are you? What is your gotra?" to their husband. (In some areas,this is still taboo today.) Over time, the gotra would be repeatedduring various samskara's, she would naturally remember it. Theconclusion here is that her husband, whom she served with devotion,died young. Even today a traditional marriage cannot happen without knowing a person's gotra, so why assume that a woman married in the vedic times would not know her husband's gotra, irrespective of whether he dies young or old, or whoever busy she may have been? On the contrary, it could be more easily explained if it is assumed that the child was born outside of marriage. The seers were tri-kAla-darshi- s. Very true. So chances are Rishi Gautama already knew that the boy was a brahmin. But, he still went through this whole procedure. Why? Maybe to set an example for future generatoins that Brahmana is equally by action and not just by birth? That a person of supposeldy unknown birth can become brahmana by his actions. -Regards Rajarshi The upsurge (of consciousness) is Bhairava - Shiva Sutra--- On Fri, 10/4/09, Ajit Krishnan <ajit.krishnan wrote: Ajit Krishnan <ajit.krishnanRe: Cast system ... Date: Friday, 10 April, 2009, 5:15 PM namaste,> So that is one sure shot, explicit caseThis is a very strong statement.> The Chandogya Upanishad mentions this incident. The boy came to Gauthama Rishi for knowledge and the Rishi asked him for his gotra. The boy goes back to his mother and finds out that his mother is not aware of who the father was.This is a popular misconception. Satyakama asks his mother thisquestion upfront. The mother does not know her child's gotra. Why? Inolden days, women married young, and did not ask questions such as"Who are you? What is your gotra?" to their husband. (In some areas,this is still taboo today.) Over time, the gotra would be repeatedduring various samskara's, she would naturally remember it. Theconclusion here is that her husband, whom she served with devotion,died young.> The boy comes back and says the same to Rishi Guathama, who says that he shall teach the boy as the boy belongs to the gotra of truth, and thus by default is a Brahmana.The seers were tri-kAla-darshi- s. Gautama knew of his boy's pedigreebefore asking him the question. After hearing his answer, he says "Anon-brahmin could not have said this . . . you have not swerved fromthe truth". "satyam" is explained as "brAhmaNa-jAti- dharma".First, you have a jAti-brAhmaNa who desires to go to a preceptor, onhis own, during childhood. He then answers the preceptor's questiontruthfully, in his mother's own words, without embellishment. This isa very rare set of events. Of course the acharyA sees the worthystudent in front of him.bhavadIyaH,ajit Connect with friends all over the world. Get India Messenger. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 12, 2009 Report Share Posted April 12, 2009 namaste, > I do not agree to this analysis of the incident. You are certainly welcome to your opinions. However, the view I shared is the traditional one, and it makes quite a bit of sense to me. I am content with the traditional understanding, which shows this woman as a pativrata. In the famed 3-volume set " Upanishad Bhashyam " , the editor, Sri S.N.Sastri has a very lengthly footnote on the subject. Those who are interested can go through it. bhavadIyaH, ajit Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 12, 2009 Report Share Posted April 12, 2009 namaste, There are many societal ills from the current rotten state of this " caste system " . But, here is my question to you -- does the current state of affairs prevent me or you from doing our own personal sadhana? bhavadIyaH, ajit On Fri, Apr 10, 2009 at 11:34 PM, utpal pathak <vedic_pathak wrote: > Namaste Ajit Bhai ! > > If you have an idea and deeper understanding of truth in the concept of Cast system in our Sanatan Dharma, please do share. > > This is a painful truth which many a times puts us in a shameful situation. > > hope to hear from you. > > Warm Regards, > > Utpal > > > > , Ajit Krishnan <ajit.krishnan wrote: >> >> namaste, >> >> > If casts are determined by the nature, >> >> >> If caste is determined by birth, what can we do about it? Nothing. >> If caste is determined by profession / work, what can we do about it? >> For many of us, not much. >> If caste is determined by our tendencies, what can we do about it? Everything. >> >> Our current and future professions, as well as our future births >> follow our nature. So let us start there. >> >> Caste is a loaded word with a lot of connotations. What is the >> Sanskrit equivalent? jAti? varNa? both? neither? >> >> bhavadIyaH, >> >> ajit >> > > > > > --- > > || Om Shaantih Shaantih Shaantih || > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 13, 2009 Report Share Posted April 13, 2009 namaste, no! nothing can prevent both or all of us from doing our own Sadhana. warm regards, utpal , Ajit Krishnan <ajit.krishnan wrote: > > namaste, > > There are many societal ills from the current rotten state of this > " caste system " . But, here is my question to you -- does the current > state of affairs prevent me or you from doing our own personal > sadhana? > > bhavadIyaH, > > ajit > > > On Fri, Apr 10, 2009 at 11:34 PM, utpal pathak <vedic_pathak wrote: > > Namaste Ajit Bhai ! > > > > If you have an idea and deeper understanding of truth in the concept of Cast system in our Sanatan Dharma, please do share. > > > > This is a painful truth which many a times puts us in a shameful situation. > > > > hope to hear from you. > > > > Warm Regards, > > > > Utpal > > > > > > > > , Ajit Krishnan <ajit.krishnan@> wrote: > >> > >> namaste, > >> > >> > If casts are determined by the nature, > >> > >> > >> If caste is determined by birth, what can we do about it? Nothing. > >> If caste is determined by profession / work, what can we do about it? > >> For many of us, not much. > >> If caste is determined by our tendencies, what can we do about it? Everything. > >> > >> Our current and future professions, as well as our future births > >> follow our nature. So let us start there. > >> > >> Caste is a loaded word with a lot of connotations. What is the > >> Sanskrit equivalent? jAti? varNa? both? neither? > >> > >> bhavadIyaH, > >> > >> ajit > >> > > > > > > > > > > --- > > > > || Om Shaantih Shaantih Shaantih || > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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