Women reading Vedas (reading/learning the veda)

[Guest guest]

Namaste,

 

Excellent explanation from you Narasimha-ji!

 

Just have some doubts:

The code of conduct about reciting vedas (who can do it) are prescribed in

Manusmriti. Is that correct? As per Manusmriti:

a. The teaching of vedas can be done only by Brahmin and no one

else.

b. Women and some sections of society are not given rights to

recite, listen, read, translate, comment on vedas.

 

However, If I am not wrong Manusmriti does not talk about code of conduct in

different yugas (Satya, Treta, Dwapar, Kali). Is there any reference to this?

Can you throw some light on this?

 

Ofcourse the best reference to description of different yugas I have found is in

" Guru Charitra " .

 

regards,

 

Jagmohan

 

, " rohinipurang " <rohinipurang wrote:

>

> Thank you Narasimha

>

> Your 'rambling' was indeed very interesting and enlightening, esp abt

> the stree sharira. So, I take it, that there is nothing in the vedic

> text itself debarring women.

>

> Can you recommend a good, unbiased translation of the entire vedic

> text in English or Hindi?

>

> Regards

>

> Rohini

>

>

> , " Narasimha P.V.R. Rao " <pvr@>

> wrote:

> >

> > Namaste friends,

> >

> > We are living in Kali yuga and Kali is becoming deeper. We cannot

> trust that

> > every standard convention is based on sound knowledge.

> >

> > * * *

> >

> > One of my favorite sooktas is " Devi Sooktam " from Rigveda. It is

> attributed

> > to Vagambhrani, a female rishi. She felt oneness with the Divine

> Mother in

> > Her undivided supreme form (nearly nirguna form) and the riks of

> Devi

> > sooktam were revealed to her then. Those eight riks are really

> fantastic.

> >

> > There are other riks in Rigveda that were revealed to the world by

> female

> > rishis. We use those riks in our worship, meditation, homas and

> other

> > sadhanas. Yet, should we insist that women cannot recite Veda? If

> > Vagambhrani is amid us again as a woman, should we stop her from

> reciting

> > Devi sooktam?

> >

> > * * *

> >

> > Jnaneshwar (or Jnanadev) was a great saint from Maharashtra from

> about 800

> > years back. He was a great devotee of Krishna and was a fully self-

> realized

> > master at a young age. He reformed religion and corrected some

> corrupt

> > traditions. He once made a buffalo chant Veda.

> >

> > He started to recite Veda and the head of the Brahmin council

> forbade him

> > because he was not " qualified " to recite Veda. Jnaneshwar insisted

> that

> > everyone had a right to recite Veda and the head of the council

> disagreed.

> > As he started reciting Veda, the Brahmins tried to stop him by

> closing his

> > mouth. Then a buffalo standing next to him took over and chanted

> Veda.

> > Astounded by the miracle, the Brahmins fell at his feet. The head

> apologized

> > and said, " we are masquerading as the keepers of Veda, but you have

> the real

> > understanding and mastery of Veda " .

> >

> > Jnaneshwar taught the equality of all and did not distinguish

> between people

> > based on caste, creed or gender. He considered BhagavadGita as the

> essence

> > of Veda and wrote a fantastic commentary on it. His commentary

> departs from

> > the standard Dwaitic (dualistic) point of view adopted by most

> Vaishnava

> > gurus and uses a purely Adwaitic (non-dualistic) point of view. It

> is a

> > priceless and timeless masterpiece.

> >

> > * * *

> >

> > One Swamiji who was at my house last month had an interesting take.

> He said

> > that the belief that women cannot recite Vedas is based on a

> > misinterpretation. He said that the physical body we have is called

> the

> > " stree sareera " and the inner body we have is called the " purusha

> sareera " .

> > He said that the physical body comes from mother and the soul comes

> from

> > father and that is why they are called so. The soul or inner self

> is the

> > thousand-headed purusha within us (described in purusha sooktam).

> >

> > He said that Veda is supposed to be recited with the purusha

> sareera.

> > According to him, it does not mean that women cannot read it.

> Whether men or

> > women, they have to read it with the purusha sareera, i.e. inner

> body, and

> > not just with the physical body. So, according to him, the standard

> > convention is based on a flawed understanding. According to him,

> one simply

> > reciting Veda with the mouth without the correct internal

> understanding is

> > only reading with the " stree sareera " and hence not doing the right

> thing.

> >

> > * * *

> >

> > In fact, reciting Veda and chanting the verses is one thing and

> > understanding them is quite another. When we make sound, there are

> four

> > levels of it - vaikhari, madhyama, pasyanti and para. Vibration of

> material

> > belonging to the gross body (sthoola sareera) produces vaikhari

> level of

> > sound and it is heard through the senses belonging to the gross

> body (ears).

> > But vibrations at the level of subtle body (sookshma sareera) and

> vibrations

> > at the level of astral body (kaarana sareera) are also there and

> can be

> > perceived thorough subtle perception.

> >

> > If one is chanting " Om Namo Narayanaya " and thinking of some

> mundane

> > matters, the vibrations produced at levels above vaikhari will not

> be

> > auspicious. There is so much stress on what we do physically and

> people

> > forget that what happens at the other layers of existence is

> equally, if not

> > more, important!

> >

> > If you produce the correct vibrations at all levels (not just

> physical)

> > while " reciting " any Vedic mantra, you can truly " experience " the

> mantra. A

> > full experience of a single Vedic mantra may be sufficient to alter

> one's

> > life! The mantras of Veda are most powerful. Unfortunately, so much

> of Vedic

> > scholarship these days is only superficial (but it has to be

> encouraged,

> > because it will keep atleast one level of knowledge alive).

> >

> > Forget the man vs woman controversy. The difference between genders

> is only

> > in the gross body. When you go to the subtle body and astral body,

> there is

> > no difference at all. One should realize that the role of gross

> body is too

> > limited in the correct recitation/experience of a Vedic mantra. It

> is the

> > purity of the subtle body and the lightness of the astral body that

> are far

> > more important.

> >

> > * * *

> >

> > To be fair and balanced, I need to throw light on the other angle.

> Like I

> > said, Vedic mantras are too powerful. They are capable of producing

> a full

> > self-realization (actually the sole purpose of Veda is " to know

> self " ).

> > However, given the depth of Kali Yuga, it is difficult for it to

> come in one

> > shot. It comes in steps. When one is half way down the path, one

> has to be

> > careful and under the vigilant guidance of a sadguru.

> >

> > When one is not fully realized and the gross body has a role to

> play, there

> > are some differences based on the gender that come into play.

> >

> > If a lady carrying a baby in her womb has certain spiritual

> experiences

> > (which a good Vedic chanting is capable of bringing), there can

> even be an

> > abortion (or a great siddha being born, on the other extreme).

> >

> > There is another subtle factor. Good Vedic chanting can bring an

> awakening

> > of Kundalini (i.e. an awakening of self-awareness) and an ascent of

> > Kundalini (i.e. an ascent of self-awareness). Though some people

> may have a

> > wrong impression about Kundalini because of the corrupt practices

> of a

> > section of so-called " Kundalini sadhakas " , the fact is that

> Kundalini merely

> > represents one's ego-consciousness. When one casually associates

> the body

> > one sees with " self " , Kundalini is asleep in the Mooladhara chakra.

> As one's

> > self-awareness becomes more and more refined, Kundalini ascends in

> the

> > sookshma sareera. As one has a perfect self-realization, Kundalini

> reaches

> > Sahasrara. Whether one thinks in these terms or not, Kundalini

> moves based

> > on how evolved one is. Whether one is into Bhakti yoga or Raja yoga

> or Karma

> > yoga or Jnana yoga does not matter. All paths lead to an awareness

> of a more

> > and more correct concept of self as time progresses and a full

> > self-realization finally. Accordingly, Kundalini rises more and

> more and

> > reaches Sahasrara at the end.

> >

> > During the period when Kundalini is stuck in Swadhishthana chakra,

> sexual

> > drive can multiply. Several yogis get stuck in this stage and fail

> the tests

> > to progress further. In general, women have a higher drive than

> men. If that

> > drive multiplies, there can be a difficult situation. However, it

> really

> > depends on the individual and we cannot generalize.

> >

> > Thus, there are some practical difficulties on the way, which may

> have made

> > some people come up with some rules. However, are those issues

> sufficient to

> > ban women from reciting Veda? I don't think so. In fact, the

> factors I wrote

> > above are probably irrelevant given the superficial understanding

> of Veda

> > present at this time and the superficial recitation of Veda that we

> find

> > these days.

> >

> > But, if you want to be sure and do not want to misguide anyone, it

> is better

> > to not give any advice. Leave it to one's sadguru. If you have a

> sadguru who

> > is guiding your spiritual sadhana, surrender and do as your guru

> says! What

> > is good for goose may not be good for gander. What goose's guru

> taught to

> > goose may be good only for goose and not for gander. Gander will do

> well to

> > follow gander's guru.

> >

> > I think I rambled enough for today... :-)

> >

> > Best regards,

> > Narasimha

> > -------------------------------

> > Homam manual and audio: http://www.VedicAstrologer.org/homam

> > Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro.home.comcast.net

> > Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAstrologer.org

> > Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagannath.org

> > -------------------------------

> >

> > -

> > " rohinipurang " <rohinipurang@>

> >

> > Saturday, February 24, 2007 12:18 PM

> > reading/learning the veda

> >

> >

> > >A warm namaste to everyone!

> > >

> > > I have heard it said that women are not allowed to

> read/know/recite the

> > > vedas. Can anyone tell me if this is true? If so, is there any

> mantra

> > > (or evidence)in any of the Vedas which says this?

> > >

> > > I ask this not as a disrespectful argument but as a genuine

> desire to

> > > know what the text actually says, if it does indeed say anything

> at all

> > > on the subject.

> > >

> > > Also I have heard that a Brahmin who does have the right to

> recite/use

> > > the mantras has to follow a certain (very strict) way of life. Is

> this

> > > too mentioned in any of these 'books' (for want of a better word)?

> > >

> > > Regards

> > >

> > > Rohini

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Namaste,

 

Dharma shastras try to define dharma universally, undoubtedly an unenviable

task. Even if one does a great job for the given desa, kaala and paatra

(place, era and class), the rules given cannot be perfect. They can be taken

as a general guideline, but they cannnot be absolute.

 

Regarding non-Brahmins:

 

If a person is interested in Veda and studies Veda, one IS a Brahmana. One

who is interested in knowledge and spirituality is a Brahmana. One who is

interested in power and authority over others is a Kshatriya. One who is

interested in wealth is a Vaishya. One who is interested in pleasures in a

Shoodra (that is why phala sruti of Vishnu sahasra naama stotra promises

these respective results to the four varnas - see " vedaantago braahmanah

syaat... " ). Valmiki was born in a shoodra family, but became a brahmana and

a maharshi later. Vishwamitra was born in a kshatriya family, but became a

brahmana and a maharshi later and many veda hymns were actually revealed to

the world through him!

 

The meaning of saying that only a Brahmana can deal with veda is that only a

person interested in knowledge and spiritual progress (and not money or

power or pleasures) can learn and teach veda. Others (interested in money,

power and pleasures) are not qualified for self-realization. It has nothing

to do with the the birth caste.

 

Regarding women:

 

Veda is for self-knowledge. Study and contemplation of Veda is for

self-realization. Spiritually speaking, Shiva is the potential energy and

Shakti is the kinetic energy. Men are supposed to have more Shiva than

Shakti in them and women are supposed to have more Shakti than Shiva in

them. If a man is really like Shiva, he can study and experience Veda and

realize self and his wife can realize self through him. That would be a good

strategy.

 

However, men are hardly like Shiva today. In fact, there is very little

Shiva in anyone and there is more Shakti (kinetic energy) in women as well

as men today. Moreover, most men do not do any spiritual sadhana at all. The

rules make no sense anymore.

 

In the old days, rishis pursued knowledge and spiritual sadhana, while their

wives ran the houses. The sadhana of rishis was sufficient for them and

their wives. Today's men are different. Whenever I go to a poojas at the

houses of friends, I see all women gathering at the pooja and chanting

mantras, while all men sit elsewhere and chat about sports, politics and

movies. The world is a changed place. Women cannot rely on their men to do

spiritual sadhana for them and they are on their own. Men are not like

Shiva. Rules composed long back do not apply anymore.

 

Upasani maharaj, who was worshipped by Shirdi Sai Baba himself as god, was a

great Vedic scholar who taught veda and yajna to women! I respect his

judgment and its relevance today more than the relevance of an ancient

dharma shastra. Universal dharma needs to be redefined from time to time by

realized souls. It becomes stale otherwise.

 

This is the problem with some religions that are based on a written text.

The text may have been good for a specific desa-kaala-paatra, but may have

become stale now. Fortunately, sanatana dharma (aka Hinduism) does not

depend on one specific text. We emphasize sadhana to realize truth rather

than adherence to a text. This emphasis on active sadhana ensured a

continuous flow of realized souls. We had many realized souls (like

Jnaneshwar Maharaj, Samartha Ramadas, Sai Baba, Ramakrishna Paramahamsa,

Ramana Maharshi etc) from time to time and they refined our understanding.

Religions that emphasized adherence to a text rather than active sadhana to

realize truth depended on an old text put together by one realized soul and

they may have become stale now.

 

Best regards,

Narasimha

 

Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAstrologer.org/homam

Do Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAstrologer.org/tarpana

Spirituality:

Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro.home.comcast.net

Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAstrologer.org

Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagannath.org

 

 

-

" Jagmohan Nanaware " <jagmohan_nanaware

 

Tuesday, April 07, 2009 1:57 PM

Women reading Vedas (Re: reading/learning the veda)

 

 

> Namaste,

>

> Excellent explanation from you Narasimha-ji!

>

> Just have some doubts:

> The code of conduct about reciting vedas (who can do it) are prescribed

> in Manusmriti. Is that correct? As per Manusmriti:

> a. The teaching of vedas can be done only by Brahmin and no one

> else.

> b. Women and some sections of society are not given rights to

> recite, listen, read, translate, comment on vedas.

>

> However, If I am not wrong Manusmriti does not talk about code of conduct

> in different yugas (Satya, Treta, Dwapar, Kali). Is there any reference to

> this? Can you throw some light on this?

>

> Ofcourse the best reference to description of different yugas I have found

> is in " Guru Charitra " .

>

> regards,

>

> Jagmohan

>

> , " rohinipurang " <rohinipurang

> wrote:

>>

>> Thank you Narasimha

>>

>> Your 'rambling' was indeed very interesting and enlightening, esp abt

>> the stree sharira. So, I take it, that there is nothing in the vedic

>> text itself debarring women.

>>

>> Can you recommend a good, unbiased translation of the entire vedic

>> text in English or Hindi?

>>

>> Regards

>>

>> Rohini

>>

>>

>> , " Narasimha P.V.R. Rao " <pvr@>

>> wrote:

>> >

>> > Namaste friends,

>> >

>> > We are living in Kali yuga and Kali is becoming deeper. We cannot

>> trust that

>> > every standard convention is based on sound knowledge.

>> >

>> > * * *

>> >

>> > One of my favorite sooktas is " Devi Sooktam " from Rigveda. It is

>> attributed

>> > to Vagambhrani, a female rishi. She felt oneness with the Divine

>> Mother in

>> > Her undivided supreme form (nearly nirguna form) and the riks of

>> Devi

>> > sooktam were revealed to her then. Those eight riks are really

>> fantastic.

>> >

>> > There are other riks in Rigveda that were revealed to the world by

>> female

>> > rishis. We use those riks in our worship, meditation, homas and

>> other

>> > sadhanas. Yet, should we insist that women cannot recite Veda? If

>> > Vagambhrani is amid us again as a woman, should we stop her from

>> reciting

>> > Devi sooktam?

>> >

>> > * * *

>> >

>> > Jnaneshwar (or Jnanadev) was a great saint from Maharashtra from

>> about 800

>> > years back. He was a great devotee of Krishna and was a fully self-

>> realized

>> > master at a young age. He reformed religion and corrected some

>> corrupt

>> > traditions. He once made a buffalo chant Veda.

>> >

>> > He started to recite Veda and the head of the Brahmin council

>> forbade him

>> > because he was not " qualified " to recite Veda. Jnaneshwar insisted

>> that

>> > everyone had a right to recite Veda and the head of the council

>> disagreed.

>> > As he started reciting Veda, the Brahmins tried to stop him by

>> closing his

>> > mouth. Then a buffalo standing next to him took over and chanted

>> Veda.

>> > Astounded by the miracle, the Brahmins fell at his feet. The head

>> apologized

>> > and said, " we are masquerading as the keepers of Veda, but you have

>> the real

>> > understanding and mastery of Veda " .

>> >

>> > Jnaneshwar taught the equality of all and did not distinguish

>> between people

>> > based on caste, creed or gender. He considered BhagavadGita as the

>> essence

>> > of Veda and wrote a fantastic commentary on it. His commentary

>> departs from

>> > the standard Dwaitic (dualistic) point of view adopted by most

>> Vaishnava

>> > gurus and uses a purely Adwaitic (non-dualistic) point of view. It

>> is a

>> > priceless and timeless masterpiece.

>> >

>> > * * *

>> >

>> > One Swamiji who was at my house last month had an interesting take.

>> He said

>> > that the belief that women cannot recite Vedas is based on a

>> > misinterpretation. He said that the physical body we have is called

>> the

>> > " stree sareera " and the inner body we have is called the " purusha

>> sareera " .

>> > He said that the physical body comes from mother and the soul comes

>> from

>> > father and that is why they are called so. The soul or inner self

>> is the

>> > thousand-headed purusha within us (described in purusha sooktam).

>> >

>> > He said that Veda is supposed to be recited with the purusha

>> sareera.

>> > According to him, it does not mean that women cannot read it.

>> Whether men or

>> > women, they have to read it with the purusha sareera, i.e. inner

>> body, and

>> > not just with the physical body. So, according to him, the standard

>> > convention is based on a flawed understanding. According to him,

>> one simply

>> > reciting Veda with the mouth without the correct internal

>> understanding is

>> > only reading with the " stree sareera " and hence not doing the right

>> thing.

>> >

>> > * * *

>> >

>> > In fact, reciting Veda and chanting the verses is one thing and

>> > understanding them is quite another. When we make sound, there are

>> four

>> > levels of it - vaikhari, madhyama, pasyanti and para. Vibration of

>> material

>> > belonging to the gross body (sthoola sareera) produces vaikhari

>> level of

>> > sound and it is heard through the senses belonging to the gross

>> body (ears).

>> > But vibrations at the level of subtle body (sookshma sareera) and

>> vibrations

>> > at the level of astral body (kaarana sareera) are also there and

>> can be

>> > perceived thorough subtle perception.

>> >

>> > If one is chanting " Om Namo Narayanaya " and thinking of some

>> mundane

>> > matters, the vibrations produced at levels above vaikhari will not

>> be

>> > auspicious. There is so much stress on what we do physically and

>> people

>> > forget that what happens at the other layers of existence is

>> equally, if not

>> > more, important!

>> >

>> > If you produce the correct vibrations at all levels (not just

>> physical)

>> > while " reciting " any Vedic mantra, you can truly " experience " the

>> mantra. A

>> > full experience of a single Vedic mantra may be sufficient to alter

>> one's

>> > life! The mantras of Veda are most powerful. Unfortunately, so much

>> of Vedic

>> > scholarship these days is only superficial (but it has to be

>> encouraged,

>> > because it will keep atleast one level of knowledge alive).

>> >

>> > Forget the man vs woman controversy. The difference between genders

>> is only

>> > in the gross body. When you go to the subtle body and astral body,

>> there is

>> > no difference at all. One should realize that the role of gross

>> body is too

>> > limited in the correct recitation/experience of a Vedic mantra. It

>> is the

>> > purity of the subtle body and the lightness of the astral body that

>> are far

>> > more important.

>> >

>> > * * *

>> >

>> > To be fair and balanced, I need to throw light on the other angle.

>> Like I

>> > said, Vedic mantras are too powerful. They are capable of producing

>> a full

>> > self-realization (actually the sole purpose of Veda is " to know

>> self " ).

>> > However, given the depth of Kali Yuga, it is difficult for it to

>> come in one

>> > shot. It comes in steps. When one is half way down the path, one

>> has to be

>> > careful and under the vigilant guidance of a sadguru.

>> >

>> > When one is not fully realized and the gross body has a role to

>> play, there

>> > are some differences based on the gender that come into play.

>> >

>> > If a lady carrying a baby in her womb has certain spiritual

>> experiences

>> > (which a good Vedic chanting is capable of bringing), there can

>> even be an

>> > abortion (or a great siddha being born, on the other extreme).

>> >

>> > There is another subtle factor. Good Vedic chanting can bring an

>> awakening

>> > of Kundalini (i.e. an awakening of self-awareness) and an ascent of

>> > Kundalini (i.e. an ascent of self-awareness). Though some people

>> may have a

>> > wrong impression about Kundalini because of the corrupt practices

>> of a

>> > section of so-called " Kundalini sadhakas " , the fact is that

>> Kundalini merely

>> > represents one's ego-consciousness. When one casually associates

>> the body

>> > one sees with " self " , Kundalini is asleep in the Mooladhara chakra.

>> As one's

>> > self-awareness becomes more and more refined, Kundalini ascends in

>> the

>> > sookshma sareera. As one has a perfect self-realization, Kundalini

>> reaches

>> > Sahasrara. Whether one thinks in these terms or not, Kundalini

>> moves based

>> > on how evolved one is. Whether one is into Bhakti yoga or Raja yoga

>> or Karma

>> > yoga or Jnana yoga does not matter. All paths lead to an awareness

>> of a more

>> > and more correct concept of self as time progresses and a full

>> > self-realization finally. Accordingly, Kundalini rises more and

>> more and

>> > reaches Sahasrara at the end.

>> >

>> > During the period when Kundalini is stuck in Swadhishthana chakra,

>> sexual

>> > drive can multiply. Several yogis get stuck in this stage and fail

>> the tests

>> > to progress further. In general, women have a higher drive than

>> men. If that

>> > drive multiplies, there can be a difficult situation. However, it

>> really

>> > depends on the individual and we cannot generalize.

>> >

>> > Thus, there are some practical difficulties on the way, which may

>> have made

>> > some people come up with some rules. However, are those issues

>> sufficient to

>> > ban women from reciting Veda? I don't think so. In fact, the

>> factors I wrote

>> > above are probably irrelevant given the superficial understanding

>> of Veda

>> > present at this time and the superficial recitation of Veda that we

>> find

>> > these days.

>> >

>> > But, if you want to be sure and do not want to misguide anyone, it

>> is better

>> > to not give any advice. Leave it to one's sadguru. If you have a

>> sadguru who

>> > is guiding your spiritual sadhana, surrender and do as your guru

>> says! What

>> > is good for goose may not be good for gander. What goose's guru

>> taught to

>> > goose may be good only for goose and not for gander. Gander will do

>> well to

>> > follow gander's guru.

>> >

>> > I think I rambled enough for today... :-)

>> >

>> > Best regards,

>> > Narasimha

>> > -------------------------------

>> > Homam manual and audio: http://www.VedicAstrologer.org/homam

>> > Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro.home.comcast.net

>> > Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAstrologer.org

>> > Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagannath.org

>> > -------------------------------

>> >

>> > -

>> > " rohinipurang " <rohinipurang@>

>> >

>> > Saturday, February 24, 2007 12:18 PM

>> > reading/learning the veda

>> >

>> >

>> > >A warm namaste to everyone!

>> > >

>> > > I have heard it said that women are not allowed to

>> read/know/recite the

>> > > vedas. Can anyone tell me if this is true? If so, is there any

>> mantra

>> > > (or evidence)in any of the Vedas which says this?

>> > >

>> > > I ask this not as a disrespectful argument but as a genuine

>> desire to

>> > > know what the text actually says, if it does indeed say anything

>> at all

>> > > on the subject.

>> > >

>> > > Also I have heard that a Brahmin who does have the right to

>> recite/use

>> > > the mantras has to follow a certain (very strict) way of life. Is

>> this

>> > > too mentioned in any of these 'books' (for want of a better word)?

>> > >

>> > > Regards

>> > >

>> > > Rohini