Guest guest Posted April 7, 2009 Report Share Posted April 7, 2009 Namaste Utpalji I have taken that line into consideration. Now read Narasimhajis mail, specially the last part. on finding what is Dharma and what is not. The line written by Svoboda is vague at best. If I go by the paramters of 1) What one is inclined mentally to do 2) What his teachers say. 3) What his scriptures say "(subject to interpretation). So technically a terrorist may have all the mental/internal/dharmic justification to act the way he acts. The root lies in, why do such situations arise where the dharma of a person has to be that he should become a terrorist? The answer is karma. So therefore, focusing on karma is far more profitable I feel. -Regards Rajarshi The upsurge (of consciousness) is Bhairava - Shiva Sutra--- On Tue, 7/4/09, utpal pathak <vedic_pathak wrote: utpal pathak <vedic_pathak Re: Nice article on dharma by Robert Svoboda Date: Tuesday, 7 April, 2009, 11:10 AM Namaste Rajarshi,> He has given the idea of of terrorists. When a terrorist is doing >a suicide attack he may just be doing his dharma. That is what he >maybe drawn to as per his perceptions, that is what his "gurus" may >have asked him to do, and that is what his ideals/principles/ books >maybe asked of him to do. So from teh point of view of dharma, how >can he be blamed? Therefore, the statement taht "Dharmo rakshati >rakshitah.. ", does not make sense. How is his dharma protecting >him? What is he getting in return, other than a bag load of strong >karmas to fend off at a later date, when he may not even be aware >why he has this karmas.> I think you missed the following sentance in Swaboda's article***Terrorists surely believe themselves to be doing their duty, but mere conviction is not dharma, for terrorism involves sacrificing the lives of others, and dharma sometimes requires its followers to sacrifice themselves or their loved ones.****sorry i am am not able to go thro' your complete message at the moment. just a quick glance and reply.Best Regards,Utpal, rajarshi nandy <rajarshi14@ ...> wrote:>> Namaste> > I read Svoboda's article and I had a few question. Theoritcal but relevant.> > He has given the idea of of terrorists. When a terrorist is doing a suicide attack he may just be doing his dharma. That is what he maybe drawn to as per his perceptions, that is what his "gurus" may have asked him to do, and that is what his ideals/principles/ books maybe asked of him to do. So from teh point of view of dharma, how can he be blamed? Therefore, the statement taht "Dharmo rakshati rakshitah.." , does not make sense. How is his dharma protecting him? What is he getting in return, other than a bag load of strong karmas to fend off at a later date, when he may not even be aware why he has this karmas.> > Can there is conflicting Dharmas for one person? Or more important vs less important dharma? Swadharma should be situational. Sant Tulsidas's broader dharma may have been realizing Rama, but as a husband, his dharma should have been to keep his wife happy. So ideally, I don't think we can ever full perform every dharma that is expected of us. > > I believe the reason this idea of Dharma was existent in ancient times, was mostly because nature has created various kinds of people, each with varying tendencies. This idea of Dharma was sort of approxiamtion, or the best way to tell men that we are all different and yet we are not incorrect in anyway. This is much better than the new ages philosophies which outright deny reality and claim everything and everyone is born equal. It is not so.> > The word religion is a 13 century invention and, etymologically, and inherently competitive in nature. Unlike Dharma.> > Also, as Narasimhaji' s mail shows correctly, following Dharma is no gaurantee of anything, least of all Moksha. It just continues the cycle. But what is the big deal in continuinng the cycle, it would any way continue which ever path one choses, dharma or adharma. > > A much better way of conduction life, I feel, is maknig a mental note of Karma. To know teh simple truth that that which goes out will come back to you and that, if you had not been bad at some point, nothing bad will ever come to you. For an otherwise ordinary person, following a life based on and being on the right side of karma, is much easier and profitable than trying to find that elusive dharma which anyway won't help one in the long run.> > Just my feeling on the subject.> > -Regards> Rajarshi> > > > Much better option> > > > > > The upsurge (of consciousness) is Bhairava - Shiva Sutra> > --- On Tue, 7/4/09, Narasimha P.V.R. Rao <pvr wrote:> > > Narasimha P.V.R. Rao <pvr> Nice article on dharma by Robert Svoboda> > Tuesday, 7 April, 2009, 5:21 AM> > > > > > > > Namaste friends,> > The following nice article on dharma by Robert Svoboda appeared in "Times of India" on April 5. Thanks to Narayan Iyer for telling me about it.> > http://epaper. timesofindia. com/Default/ Scripting/ ArticleWin. asp?From= Search & Source= Find & Key= TOIM/2009/ 04/05/17/ Ar01700.xml & CollName= TOI_ MUMBAI_DAILY_ 2009 & DOCID=9879 & Keyword=( %3Cmany% 3E%3Cstem% 3ESvoboda) & skin= TOINEW & AppName= 1 & PageLabel= 17% 20 & ViewMode= HTML & GZ=T> > If you wonder, after reading this article, how to figure out one's own dharma, you may find a few words touching upon it in the following mail from a few months back.> > Best regards,> Narasimha> ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- ---------> Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ homam> Do Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ tarpana> Spirituality: http://groups. / group/vedic- wisdom> Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro. home.comcast. net> Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAst rologer.org> Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagan nath.org> ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- > > > - > "Narasimha P.V.R. Rao" <pvr (AT) charter (DOT) net>> <>> Saturday, September 27, 2008 2:41 PM> Re: Dharma> > > Namaste,> > > > As Vimalananda says, dharma is indeed personal. Krishna clearly says in > > Bhagavad Geeta "Follow your own dharma. It is dangerous to follow someone > > else's dharma".> > > > Following the path of dharma basically means engaging in the right > > action/duty. Right action varies from person to person, from time to time > > and from place to place. It is dependent on what nature expects from you, > > which in turn is based on who you have been in the past, what actions you > > did in the past while identifying with the action, who you affected in the > > past (and how) with the actions that you identified with, what debts you > > created in the process, and what mental tendencies you accumulated until > > now.> > > > If, based on one's mental tendencies and karmic debts, nature wants a person > > to kill evil persons, that becomes one's dharma. If, based on one's mental > > tendencies and karmic debts, nature wants a person to spread the message of > > uniformity of all religions, that becomes one's dharma. If, based on one's > > mental tendencies and karmic debts, nature wants a person to spread the > > ritual of homam in the world, that becomes one's dharma. If, based on one's > > mental tendencies and karmic debts, nature wants a person to make a lot of > > money and construct a temple, that becomes one's dharma.> > > > * * *> > > > The dharma of a being may change from one life to another.> > > > At the time of Mahabharata war, it was Arjuna's dharma to kill his gurus, > > elders and relatives. The time then was such that there was too much weight > > on earth and nature wanted earth to be relieved of some weight. Tremendous > > destruction was to take place and civilization destroyed to a great extent, > > to welcome Kali yuga and set the tone for it. Arjuna being a great warrior, > > it was his dharma to facilitate that. Some people he deeply loved and > > respected were on the other side and it was his dharma to kill them.> > > > When the same Arjuna was born again in the 19th century as one of > > Ramakrishna Paramahamsa' s sishyas (Swami Yogananda had been Arjuna in a > > previous life, according to Ramakrishna) , his dharma was different in this > > new time and place. He was born to renounce material life despite his > > aristocratic upbringing and live the simple life of a monk and inspire > > generations to embrace a simple life of mental detachment and service to > > others. When he is born again (which he has to, as per what Ramakrishna > > said), his dharma based on the time and place may be something else.> > > > * * *> > > > The tricky question is: How does one decide what is one's dharma?> > > > Some people have interpreted Krishna's words saying "follow your own dharma > > and not someone else's dharma" in the light of castism. Though the concept > > of caste (varna) has been there in Hinduism for a long time, the concept of > > caste mobility was very much there. Valmiki was a shudra who lived by > > killing birds. He became a brahmana and a maharshi later. Vishwamitra was a > > kshatrita and a powerful king. He became a brahmana and and a maharshi > > later. Basically varna shows one's aptitude. One starts off with the varna > > of father, because that is what one is exposed to in childhood. As one > > develops in life, one gets one's own varna based on what one does.> > > > Thus, the misinterpretation of Krishna's words which tells you to know your > > dharma from your caste is wrong. Moreover, there are not just 4 dharmas in > > the world. Each person has individual dharma.> > > > Knowing what one's dharma is is very very very difficult. If one is pure > > enough, one will *know* one's dharma. In fact, all of us have a part of our > > mind that tells us what our dharma is, but it is surrounded by a lot of > > noise from other parts of our minds which tell other things. Thus, we get > > confused.> > > > We should make the best judgment combining discrimination and intuition and > > decide what is our dharma and follow it sincerely. We may err, but doing > > the best we can is all that we can do!> > > > More than following dharma, what is of utmost importance is to engage in > > actions without identification. *That* alone ensures that we are not > > accumulating new karmas, i.e. not increasing the load. We should not build > > too much attachment to what we are doing. We should engage in the best > > possible actions (based on our best judgment on what our dharma in the given > > situation is), with as little attachment and self-identification with the > > action as possible. When the action is finished, we should leave the result > > to god. We should not think "I did it", "what will happen now", "will it > > work" etc. Such adherence of nishkama karma yoga (unfication through > > unattached action) will simplify our ego and purify our consciousness slowly. > > As we become purer, our mind will work sharper and tell our dharma clearer. > > There is a positive feedback here. This will slowly enable us to see our > > dharma clearly and follow it without incurring new karmas. This is not easy, > > but not as difficult as people think.> > > > The bottomline is: Even if one is not following one's dharma, one's sense of > > "this is my dharma" gets refined with time if one engages in action with > > little attachment.> > > > * * *> > > > In deciding one's dharma, one's intellect and intuition are the inputs. > > Another external input is the words of scriptures and learned men. One can > > derive one's dharma from them. A special place is given to one's spiritual > > master. If one surrenders to a spiritual master, one can take the words of > > the master to determine one's dharma and follow it sincerely.> > > > When Arjuna was confused about what his dharma was and thought killing gurus > > and relatives was not dharma, he had a guru in Krishna who clarified his > > dharma. When Narendranath (Swami Vivekananda) was confused about his dharma > > and wanted to renounce the world and go to a secluded place to do sadhana, > > Ramakrishna Paramahamsa cried and prevailed upon him to stay in the material > > world and do the work of Mother for him.> > > > One who is not in tune with nature and does not know who one is, what one's > > debts are and what nature expects from one can err in the judgment of what > > one's dharma is. If one's guru is an elevated soul with a clear insight into > > one's inner core, such a guru can give perfect guidance.> > > > * * *> > > > Bottomline is that I (or anybody) cannot outline a set of principles and > > declare that as the dharma. No, dharma changes from person to person, from > > time to time and from place to place. Also, there are no thumbrules to find > > out what one's dharma is. But, one can refine one's understanding of one's > > dharma by increasing internal purity. By doing various kinds of spiritual > > sadhana (like homam, japam etc) and engaging in actions without much > > attachment, one can slowly purify oneself and refine one's understanding of > > one's individual dharma.> > > > Best regards,> > Narasimha> > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- ---------> > Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ homam> > Do Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ tarpana> > Spirituality: http://groups. / group/vedic- wisdom> > Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro. home.comcast. net> > Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAst rologer.org> > Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagan nath.org> > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- > > > > - > > "dahiyajiten" <dahiyajiten@ .co. in>> > <>> > Saturday, September 27, 2008 8:02 AM> > Dharma> > > >> Namaste to all> >>> >> i just finished my Aghora series> >> and in it in last part> >> Vimalanda says path of dharma is very personal.> >> Can somebody share views on that and how can we approach> >> towards it> >> Does it has to do something with vedas and upanishads> >>> >> regards> >> jitender> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From Chandigarh to Chennai - find friends all over India. 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Guest guest Posted April 7, 2009 Report Share Posted April 7, 2009 Namaste, Confusing statements: a) Killing is prohibited as God is sarva vyapakeswara and is existent in everyone b) Killing is alright when seen through the filter of dharma or detachment. Justified in Gita with the usage "We are the instruments in the Godly plan and hence we are not killing" / "Duty of a Kshatriya is to defeat enemy when the Truth is abused" May be knowledgeable people on this forum can clear our doubts. * * * I have come across a similar upanishadic paradoxes and it is clarified brilliantly in a book. Paradoxes: 1) Truth is unchanging and rest is changing 2) Truth is present in all mortal beings 3) The universe is a manifestation of Truth. If so, why is Universe encapsulated in time frame? The author in the said book, clearly links all together and shows that there are no paradoxes. * * * May be we are missing something which can be used to remove the paradoxes of statements a & b God Bless All, --Murahari --- On Tue, 4/7/09, rajarshi nandy <rajarshi14 wrote: rajarshi nandy <rajarshi14Re: Re: Nice article on dharma by Robert Svoboda Date: Tuesday, April 7, 2009, 2:54 PM Namaste Utpalji I have taken that line into consideration. Now read Narasimhajis mail, specially the last part. on finding what is Dharma and what is not. The line written by Svoboda is vague at best. If I go by the paramters of 1) What one is inclined mentally to do 2) What his teachers say. 3) What his scriptures say "(subject to interpretation). So technically a terrorist may have all the mental/internal/dharmic justification to act the way he acts. The root lies in, why do such situations arise where the dharma of a person has to be that he should become a terrorist? The answer is karma. So therefore, focusing on karma is far more profitable I feel. -Regards Rajarshi The upsurge (of consciousness) is Bhairava - Shiva Sutra--- On Tue, 7/4/09, utpal pathak <vedic_pathak wrote: utpal pathak <vedic_pathak Re: Nice article on dharma by Robert Svoboda Date: Tuesday, 7 April, 2009, 11:10 AM Namaste Rajarshi,> He has given the idea of of terrorists. When a terrorist is doing >a suicide attack he may just be doing his dharma. That is what he >maybe drawn to as per his perceptions, that is what his "gurus" may >have asked him to do, and that is what his ideals/principles/ books >maybe asked of him to do. So from teh point of view of dharma, how >can he be blamed? Therefore, the statement taht "Dharmo rakshati >rakshitah.. ", does not make sense. How is his dharma protecting >him? What is he getting in return, other than a bag load of strong >karmas to fend off at a later date, when he may not even be aware >why he has this karmas.> I think you missed the following sentance in Swaboda's article***Terrorists surely believe themselves to be doing their duty, but mere conviction is not dharma, for terrorism involves sacrificing the lives of others, and dharma sometimes requires its followers to sacrifice themselves or their loved ones.****sorry i am am not able to go thro' your complete message at the moment. just a quick glance and reply.Best Regards,Utpal, rajarshi nandy <rajarshi14@ ...> wrote:>> Namaste> > I read Svoboda's article and I had a few question. Theoritcal but relevant.> > He has given the idea of of terrorists. When a terrorist is doing a suicide attack he may just be doing his dharma. That is what he maybe drawn to as per his perceptions, that is what his "gurus" may have asked him to do, and that is what his ideals/principles/ books maybe asked of him to do. So from teh point of view of dharma, how can he be blamed? Therefore, the statement taht "Dharmo rakshati rakshitah.." , does not make sense. How is his dharma protecting him? What is he getting in return, other than a bag load of strong karmas to fend off at a later date, when he may not even be aware why he has this karmas.> > Can there is conflicting Dharmas for one person? Or more important vs less important dharma? Swadharma should be situational. Sant Tulsidas's broader dharma may have been realizing Rama, but as a husband, his dharma should have been to keep his wife happy. So ideally, I don't think we can ever full perform every dharma that is expected of us. > > I believe the reason this idea of Dharma was existent in ancient times, was mostly because nature has created various kinds of people, each with varying tendencies. This idea of Dharma was sort of approxiamtion, or the best way to tell men that we are all different and yet we are not incorrect in anyway. This is much better than the new ages philosophies which outright deny reality and claim everything and everyone is born equal. It is not so.> > The word religion is a 13 century invention and, etymologically, and inherently competitive in nature. Unlike Dharma.> > Also, as Narasimhaji' s mail shows correctly, following Dharma is no gaurantee of anything, least of all Moksha. It just continues the cycle. But what is the big deal in continuinng the cycle, it would any way continue which ever path one choses, dharma or adharma. > > A much better way of conduction life, I feel, is maknig a mental note of Karma. To know teh simple truth that that which goes out will come back to you and that, if you had not been bad at some point, nothing bad will ever come to you. For an otherwise ordinary person, following a life based on and being on the right side of karma, is much easier and profitable than trying to find that elusive dharma which anyway won't help one in the long run.> > Just my feeling on the subject.> > -Regards> Rajarshi> > > > Much better option> > > > > > The upsurge (of consciousness) is Bhairava - Shiva Sutra> > --- On Tue, 7/4/09, Narasimha P.V.R. Rao <pvr wrote:> > > Narasimha P.V.R. Rao <pvr> Nice article on dharma by Robert Svoboda> > Tuesday, 7 April, 2009, 5:21 AM> > > > > > > > Namaste friends,> > The following nice article on dharma by Robert Svoboda appeared in "Times of India" on April 5. Thanks to Narayan Iyer for telling me about it.> > http://epaper. timesofindia. com/Default/ Scripting/ ArticleWin. asp?From= Search & Source= Find & Key= TOIM/2009/ 04/05/17/ Ar01700.xml & CollName= TOI_ MUMBAI_DAILY_ 2009 & DOCID=9879 & Keyword=( %3Cmany% 3E%3Cstem% 3ESvoboda) & skin= TOINEW & AppName= 1 & PageLabel= 17% 20 & ViewMode= HTML & GZ=T> > If you wonder, after reading this article, how to figure out one's own dharma, you may find a few words touching upon it in the following mail from a few months back.> > Best regards,> Narasimha> ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- ---------> Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ homam> Do Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ tarpana> Spirituality: http://groups. / group/vedic- wisdom> Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro. home.comcast. net> Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAst rologer.org> Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagan nath.org> ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- > > > - > "Narasimha P.V.R. Rao" <pvr (AT) charter (DOT) net>> <>> Saturday, September 27, 2008 2:41 PM> Re: Dharma> > > Namaste,> > > > As Vimalananda says, dharma is indeed personal. Krishna clearly says in > > Bhagavad Geeta "Follow your own dharma. It is dangerous to follow someone > > else's dharma".> > > > Following the path of dharma basically means engaging in the right > > action/duty. Right action varies from person to person, from time to time > > and from place to place. It is dependent on what nature expects from you, > > which in turn is based on who you have been in the past, what actions you > > did in the past while identifying with the action, who you affected in the > > past (and how) with the actions that you identified with, what debts you > > created in the process, and what mental tendencies you accumulated until > > now.> > > > If, based on one's mental tendencies and karmic debts, nature wants a person > > to kill evil persons, that becomes one's dharma. If, based on one's mental > > tendencies and karmic debts, nature wants a person to spread the message of > > uniformity of all religions, that becomes one's dharma. If, based on one's > > mental tendencies and karmic debts, nature wants a person to spread the > > ritual of homam in the world, that becomes one's dharma. If, based on one's > > mental tendencies and karmic debts, nature wants a person to make a lot of > > money and construct a temple, that becomes one's dharma.> > > > * * *> > > > The dharma of a being may change from one life to another.> > > > At the time of Mahabharata war, it was Arjuna's dharma to kill his gurus, > > elders and relatives. The time then was such that there was too much weight > > on earth and nature wanted earth to be relieved of some weight. Tremendous > > destruction was to take place and civilization destroyed to a great extent, > > to welcome Kali yuga and set the tone for it. Arjuna being a great warrior, > > it was his dharma to facilitate that. Some people he deeply loved and > > respected were on the other side and it was his dharma to kill them.> > > > When the same Arjuna was born again in the 19th century as one of > > Ramakrishna Paramahamsa' s sishyas (Swami Yogananda had been Arjuna in a > > previous life, according to Ramakrishna) , his dharma was different in this > > new time and place. He was born to renounce material life despite his > > aristocratic upbringing and live the simple life of a monk and inspire > > generations to embrace a simple life of mental detachment and service to > > others. When he is born again (which he has to, as per what Ramakrishna > > said), his dharma based on the time and place may be something else.> > > > * * *> > > > The tricky question is: How does one decide what is one's dharma?> > > > Some people have interpreted Krishna's words saying "follow your own dharma > > and not someone else's dharma" in the light of castism. Though the concept > > of caste (varna) has been there in Hinduism for a long time, the concept of > > caste mobility was very much there. Valmiki was a shudra who lived by > > killing birds. He became a brahmana and a maharshi later. Vishwamitra was a > > kshatrita and a powerful king. He became a brahmana and and a maharshi > > later. Basically varna shows one's aptitude. One starts off with the varna > > of father, because that is what one is exposed to in childhood. As one > > develops in life, one gets one's own varna based on what one does.> > > > Thus, the misinterpretation of Krishna's words which tells you to know your > > dharma from your caste is wrong. Moreover, there are not just 4 dharmas in > > the world. Each person has individual dharma.> > > > Knowing what one's dharma is is very very very difficult. If one is pure > > enough, one will *know* one's dharma. In fact, all of us have a part of our > > mind that tells us what our dharma is, but it is surrounded by a lot of > > noise from other parts of our minds which tell other things. Thus, we get > > confused.> > > > We should make the best judgment combining discrimination and intuition and > > decide what is our dharma and follow it sincerely. We may err, but doing > > the best we can is all that we can do!> > > > More than following dharma, what is of utmost importance is to engage in > > actions without identification. *That* alone ensures that we are not > > accumulating new karmas, i.e. not increasing the load. We should not build > > too much attachment to what we are doing. We should engage in the best > > possible actions (based on our best judgment on what our dharma in the given > > situation is), with as little attachment and self-identification with the > > action as possible. When the action is finished, we should leave the result > > to god. We should not think "I did it", "what will happen now", "will it > > work" etc. Such adherence of nishkama karma yoga (unfication through > > unattached action) will simplify our ego and purify our consciousness slowly. > > As we become purer, our mind will work sharper and tell our dharma clearer. > > There is a positive feedback here. This will slowly enable us to see our > > dharma clearly and follow it without incurring new karmas. This is not easy, > > but not as difficult as people think.> > > > The bottomline is: Even if one is not following one's dharma, one's sense of > > "this is my dharma" gets refined with time if one engages in action with > > little attachment.> > > > * * *> > > > In deciding one's dharma, one's intellect and intuition are the inputs. > > Another external input is the words of scriptures and learned men. One can > > derive one's dharma from them. A special place is given to one's spiritual > > master. If one surrenders to a spiritual master, one can take the words of > > the master to determine one's dharma and follow it sincerely.> > > > When Arjuna was confused about what his dharma was and thought killing gurus > > and relatives was not dharma, he had a guru in Krishna who clarified his > > dharma. When Narendranath (Swami Vivekananda) was confused about his dharma > > and wanted to renounce the world and go to a secluded place to do sadhana, > > Ramakrishna Paramahamsa cried and prevailed upon him to stay in the material > > world and do the work of Mother for him.> > > > One who is not in tune with nature and does not know who one is, what one's > > debts are and what nature expects from one can err in the judgment of what > > one's dharma is. If one's guru is an elevated soul with a clear insight into > > one's inner core, such a guru can give perfect guidance.> > > > * * *> > > > Bottomline is that I (or anybody) cannot outline a set of principles and > > declare that as the dharma. No, dharma changes from person to person, from > > time to time and from place to place. Also, there are no thumbrules to find > > out what one's dharma is. But, one can refine one's understanding of one's > > dharma by increasing internal purity. By doing various kinds of spiritual > > sadhana (like homam, japam etc) and engaging in actions without much > > attachment, one can slowly purify oneself and refine one's understanding of > > one's individual dharma.> > > > Best regards,> > Narasimha> > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- ---------> > Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ homam> > Do Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ tarpana> > Spirituality: http://groups. / group/vedic- wisdom> > Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro. home.comcast. net> > Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAst rologer.org> > Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagan nath.org> > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- > > > > - > > "dahiyajiten" <dahiyajiten@ .co. in>> > <>> > Saturday, September 27, 2008 8:02 AM> > Dharma> > > >> Namaste to all> >>> >> i just finished my Aghora series> >> and in it in last part> >> Vimalanda says path of dharma is very personal.> >> Can somebody share views on that and how can we approach> >> towards it> >> Does it has to do something with vedas and upanishads> >>> >> regards> >> jitender> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From Chandigarh to Chennai - find friends all over India. 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Guest guest Posted April 8, 2009 Report Share Posted April 8, 2009 Namaste Utpalji Yes we do share the same Birthday! Wish you a very happy birthday in advance. in my opinion, what matters for us is Sadhana, Sadhana and More Sadhana. Purification and direct perception of supreme truth. everything else such as Swa-Dharma etc.. will fall in place after that or during the path. Yes Sir, that seems to be the best and most reliable option, the more I think the more this alone seems to be the solution. By the way, the word 'Sadhna' reminded me of 'Hanumaan Jayanti' on coming Thursday (Chaitri Paournima). intrested members may think of taking leave from their daily job and recite 'Hanumaan Chalisa' from morning to Evening-108 times if possible. Thank you very much for informing in advance. Excellent day for praying to Lord Hanuman. -Regards Rajarshi The upsurge (of consciousness) is Bhairava - Shiva Sutra--- On Wed, 8/4/09, utpal pathak <vedic_pathak wrote: utpal pathak <vedic_pathak Re: Nice article on dharma by Robert Svoboda Date: Wednesday, 8 April, 2009, 1:05 AM Namaste Rajarshi,We share the same Birthday (Saal ko goli maro;). happy b'day in advance!I thought that you might have misunderstood Swaboda w.r.t. his comments regarding Terrorists hence i gave my earlier reply***My take on the whole issue of Swa-Dharma is as under:1) Swaboda in his Article, as you pointed out, does not proivde any insight in to SwaDharma. but atleast he would have been successfull in triggering some important chain of thoughts in atleast some of the serious readers.2) Narasimha has expressed it accurately in his message when he says that it is *very vey very* difficult to find out individual Dharma. his whole message is quite insightful and dispeller of many a doubts. 3) Few months back, i was confused and worried about my swa-dharma and such stuff. now there is a good amount of clarity and clutterlessness. it was because of the below message of Narasimha which i read few months ago AND my own contemplation on the matter AND Thakur Ramkrishna's disicive quote which i am reproducing below:[[[[[This is the message of Sri Ramakrishna to the modern world. Care not for doctrines or for dogmas, for sects or for churches. All these count for but little compared with that essence of existence which is in each one, and called 'spirituality' . The more this develops in a man, the more powerful is he for good. He who has most of it can do good most to his fellow man. First, then, acquire that. Only those who have seen it will understand this; but such spirituality can be given to others, even though they be unconscious of the gift. Only those who have attained to this power are amongst the great teachers of mankind. They are the powers of light. Then be you this! The more of such men any country produces, the higher that country is raised. That land where no such men exist is doomed. Nothing can save it. Therefore, my Master's message to the world is, `Be ye all spiritual! Get ye first realization! ' And to the young and strong of every country he would cry that the time is come for renunciation. 'Renounce for the sake of humanity! You have talked of the love of man till the thing is in danger of becoming words alone. The time is come to act. The call is now. Do! Leap into the breach and save the world! ]]]]4) in my opinion, what matters for us is Sadhana, Sadhana and More Sadhana. Purification and direct perception of supreme truth. everything else such as Swa-Dharma etc.. will fall in place after that or during the path.By the way, the word 'Sadhna' reminded me of 'Hanumaan Jayanti' on coming Thursday (Chaitri Paournima). intrested members may think of taking leave from their daily job and recite 'Hanumaan Chalisa' from morning to Evening-108 times if possible.any takers?Warm Regards,Utpal, rajarshi nandy <rajarshi14@ ...> wrote:>> Namaste Utpalji> > I have taken that line into consideration. Now read Narasimhajis mail, specially the last part. on finding what is Dharma and what is not. The line written by Svoboda is vague at best. If I go by the paramters of 1) What one is inclined mentally to do> 2) What his teachers say. 3) What his scriptures say "(subject to interpretation) .> > So technically a terrorist may have all the mental/internal/ dharmic justification to act the way he acts.> > The root lies in, why do such situations arise where the dharma of a person has to be that he should become a terrorist? The answer is karma. So therefore, focusing on karma is far more profitable I feel.> > -Regards> Rajarshi> > > > The upsurge (of consciousness) is Bhairava - Shiva Sutra> > --- On Tue, 7/4/09, utpal pathak <vedic_pathak@ ...> wrote:> > > utpal pathak <vedic_pathak@ ...>> Re: Nice article on dharma by Robert Svoboda> > Tuesday, 7 April, 2009, 11:10 AM> > > > > > > Namaste Rajarshi,> > > He has given the idea of of terrorists. When a terrorist is doing >a suicide attack he may just be doing his dharma. That is what he >maybe drawn to as per his perceptions, that is what his "gurus" may >have asked him to do, and that is what his ideals/principles/ books >maybe asked of him to do. So from teh point of view of dharma, how >can he be blamed? Therefore, the statement taht "Dharmo rakshati >rakshitah.. ", does not make sense. How is his dharma protecting >him? What is he getting in return, other than a bag load of strong >karmas to fend off at a later date, when he may not even be aware >why he has this karmas.> > > > I think you missed the following sentance in Swaboda's article> > ***> Terrorists surely believe themselves to be doing their duty, but mere conviction is not dharma, for terrorism involves sacrificing the lives of others, and dharma sometimes requires its followers to sacrifice themselves or their loved ones.> > ****> > sorry i am am not able to go thro' your complete message at the moment. just a quick glance and reply.> > Best Regards,> > Utpal> > , rajarshi nandy <rajarshi14@ ...> wrote:> >> > Namaste> > > > I read Svoboda's article and I had a few question. Theoritcal but relevant.> > > > He has given the idea of of terrorists. When a terrorist is doing a suicide attack he may just be doing his dharma. That is what he maybe drawn to as per his perceptions, that is what his "gurus" may have asked him to do, and that is what his ideals/principles/ books maybe asked of him to do. So from teh point of view of dharma, how can he be blamed? Therefore, the statement taht "Dharmo rakshati rakshitah.." , does not make sense. How is his dharma protecting him? What is he getting in return, other than a bag load of strong karmas to fend off at a later date, when he may not even be aware why he has this karmas.> > > > Can there is conflicting Dharmas for one person? Or more important vs less important dharma? Swadharma should be situational. Sant Tulsidas's broader dharma may have been realizing Rama, but as a husband, his dharma should have been to keep his wife happy. So ideally, I don't think we can ever full perform every dharma that is expected of us. > > > > I believe the reason this idea of Dharma was existent in ancient times, was mostly because nature has created various kinds of people, each with varying tendencies. This idea of Dharma was sort of approxiamtion, or the best way to tell men that we are all different and yet we are not incorrect in anyway. This is much better than the new ages philosophies which outright deny reality and claim everything and everyone is born equal. It is not so.> > > > The word religion is a 13 century invention and, etymologically, and inherently competitive in nature. Unlike Dharma.> > > > Also, as Narasimhaji' s mail shows correctly, following Dharma is no gaurantee of anything, least of all Moksha. It just continues the cycle. But what is the big deal in continuinng the cycle, it would any way continue which ever path one choses, dharma or adharma. > > > > A much better way of conduction life, I feel, is maknig a mental note of Karma. To know teh simple truth that that which goes out will come back to you and that, if you had not been bad at some point, nothing bad will ever come to you. For an otherwise ordinary person, following a life based on and being on the right side of karma, is much easier and profitable than trying to find that elusive dharma which anyway won't help one in the long run.> > > > Just my feeling on the subject.> > > > -Regards> > Rajarshi> > > > > > > > Much better option> > > > > > > > > > > > The upsurge (of consciousness) is Bhairava - Shiva Sutra> > > > --- On Tue, 7/4/09, Narasimha P.V.R. Rao <pvr@> wrote:> > > > > > Narasimha P.V.R. Rao <pvr@>> > Nice article on dharma by Robert Svoboda> > > > Tuesday, 7 April, 2009, 5:21 AM> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Namaste friends,> > > > The following nice article on dharma by Robert Svoboda appeared in "Times of India" on April 5. Thanks to Narayan Iyer for telling me about it.> > > > http://epaper. timesofindia. com/Default/ Scripting/ ArticleWin. asp?From= Search & Source= Find & Key= TOIM/2009/ 04/05/17/ Ar01700.xml & CollName= TOI_ MUMBAI_DAILY_ 2009 & DOCID=9879 & Keyword=( %3Cmany% 3E%3Cstem% 3ESvoboda) & skin= TOINEW & AppName= 1 & PageLabel= 17% 20 & ViewMode= HTML & GZ=T> > > > If you wonder, after reading this article, how to figure out one's own dharma, you may find a few words touching upon it in the following mail from a few months back.> > > > Best regards,> > Narasimha> > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- ---------> > Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ homam> > Do Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ tarpana> > Spirituality: http://groups. / group/vedic- wisdom> > Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro. home.comcast. net> > Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAst rologer.org> > Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagan nath.org> > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- > > > > > > - > > "Narasimha P.V.R. Rao" <pvr (AT) charter (DOT) net>> > <>> > Saturday, September 27, 2008 2:41 PM> > Re: Dharma> > > > > Namaste,> > > > > > As Vimalananda says, dharma is indeed personal. Krishna clearly says in > > > Bhagavad Geeta "Follow your own dharma. It is dangerous to follow someone > > > else's dharma".> > > > > > Following the path of dharma basically means engaging in the right > > > action/duty. Right action varies from person to person, from time to time > > > and from place to place. It is dependent on what nature expects from you, > > > which in turn is based on who you have been in the past, what actions you > > > did in the past while identifying with the action, who you affected in the > > > past (and how) with the actions that you identified with, what debts you > > > created in the process, and what mental tendencies you accumulated until > > > now.> > > > > > If, based on one's mental tendencies and karmic debts, nature wants a person > > > to kill evil persons, that becomes one's dharma. If, based on one's mental > > > tendencies and karmic debts, nature wants a person to spread the message of > > > uniformity of all religions, that becomes one's dharma. If, based on one's > > > mental tendencies and karmic debts, nature wants a person to spread the > > > ritual of homam in the world, that becomes one's dharma. If, based on one's > > > mental tendencies and karmic debts, nature wants a person to make a lot of > > > money and construct a temple, that becomes one's dharma.> > > > > > * * *> > > > > > The dharma of a being may change from one life to another.> > > > > > At the time of Mahabharata war, it was Arjuna's dharma to kill his gurus, > > > elders and relatives. The time then was such that there was too much weight > > > on earth and nature wanted earth to be relieved of some weight. Tremendous > > > destruction was to take place and civilization destroyed to a great extent, > > > to welcome Kali yuga and set the tone for it. Arjuna being a great warrior, > > > it was his dharma to facilitate that. Some people he deeply loved and > > > respected were on the other side and it was his dharma to kill them.> > > > > > When the same Arjuna was born again in the 19th century as one of > > > Ramakrishna Paramahamsa' s sishyas (Swami Yogananda had been Arjuna in a > > > previous life, according to Ramakrishna) , his dharma was different in this > > > new time and place. He was born to renounce material life despite his > > > aristocratic upbringing and live the simple life of a monk and inspire > > > generations to embrace a simple life of mental detachment and service to > > > others. When he is born again (which he has to, as per what Ramakrishna > > > said), his dharma based on the time and place may be something else.> > > > > > * * *> > > > > > The tricky question is: How does one decide what is one's dharma?> > > > > > Some people have interpreted Krishna's words saying "follow your own dharma > > > and not someone else's dharma" in the light of castism. Though the concept > > > of caste (varna) has been there in Hinduism for a long time, the concept of > > > caste mobility was very much there. Valmiki was a shudra who lived by > > > killing birds. He became a brahmana and a maharshi later. Vishwamitra was a > > > kshatrita and a powerful king. He became a brahmana and and a maharshi > > > later. Basically varna shows one's aptitude. One starts off with the varna > > > of father, because that is what one is exposed to in childhood. As one > > > develops in life, one gets one's own varna based on what one does.> > > > > > Thus, the misinterpretation of Krishna's words which tells you to know your > > > dharma from your caste is wrong. Moreover, there are not just 4 dharmas in > > > the world. Each person has individual dharma.> > > > > > Knowing what one's dharma is is very very very difficult. If one is pure > > > enough, one will *know* one's dharma. In fact, all of us have a part of our > > > mind that tells us what our dharma is, but it is surrounded by a lot of > > > noise from other parts of our minds which tell other things. Thus, we get > > > confused.> > > > > > We should make the best judgment combining discrimination and intuition and > > > decide what is our dharma and follow it sincerely. We may err, but doing > > > the best we can is all that we can do!> > > > > > More than following dharma, what is of utmost importance is to engage in > > > actions without identification. *That* alone ensures that we are not > > > accumulating new karmas, i.e. not increasing the load. We should not build > > > too much attachment to what we are doing. We should engage in the best > > > possible actions (based on our best judgment on what our dharma in the given > > > situation is), with as little attachment and self-identification with the > > > action as possible. When the action is finished, we should leave the result > > > to god. We should not think "I did it", "what will happen now", "will it > > > work" etc. Such adherence of nishkama karma yoga (unfication through > > > unattached action) will simplify our ego and purify our consciousness slowly. > > > As we become purer, our mind will work sharper and tell our dharma clearer. > > > There is a positive feedback here. This will slowly enable us to see our > > > dharma clearly and follow it without incurring new karmas. This is not easy, > > > but not as difficult as people think.> > > > > > The bottomline is: Even if one is not following one's dharma, one's sense of > > > "this is my dharma" gets refined with time if one engages in action with > > > little attachment.> > > > > > * * *> > > > > > In deciding one's dharma, one's intellect and intuition are the inputs. > > > Another external input is the words of scriptures and learned men. One can > > > derive one's dharma from them. A special place is given to one's spiritual > > > master. If one surrenders to a spiritual master, one can take the words of > > > the master to determine one's dharma and follow it sincerely.> > > > > > When Arjuna was confused about what his dharma was and thought killing gurus > > > and relatives was not dharma, he had a guru in Krishna who clarified his > > > dharma. When Narendranath (Swami Vivekananda) was confused about his dharma > > > and wanted to renounce the world and go to a secluded place to do sadhana, > > > Ramakrishna Paramahamsa cried and prevailed upon him to stay in the material > > > world and do the work of Mother for him.> > > > > > One who is not in tune with nature and does not know who one is, what one's > > > debts are and what nature expects from one can err in the judgment of what > > > one's dharma is. If one's guru is an elevated soul with a clear insight into > > > one's inner core, such a guru can give perfect guidance.> > > > > > * * *> > > > > > Bottomline is that I (or anybody) cannot outline a set of principles and > > > declare that as the dharma. No, dharma changes from person to person, from > > > time to time and from place to place. Also, there are no thumbrules to find > > > out what one's dharma is. But, one can refine one's understanding of one's > > > dharma by increasing internal purity. By doing various kinds of spiritual > > > sadhana (like homam, japam etc) and engaging in actions without much > > > attachment, one can slowly purify oneself and refine one's understanding of > > > one's individual dharma.> > > > > > Best regards,> > > Narasimha> > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- ---------> > > Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ homam> > > Do Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ tarpana> > > Spirituality: http://groups. / group/vedic- wisdom> > > Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro. home.comcast. net> > > Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAst rologer.org> > > Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagan nath.org> > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- > > > > > > - > > > "dahiyajiten" <dahiyajiten@ .co. in>> > > <@ . com>> > > Saturday, September 27, 2008 8:02 AM> > > Dharma> > > > > >> Namaste to all> > >>> > >> i just finished my Aghora series> > >> and in it in last part> > >> Vimalanda says path of dharma is very personal.> > >> Can somebody share views on that and how can we approach> > >> towards it> > >> Does it has to do something with vedas and upanishads> > >>> > >> regards> > >> jitender> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From Chandigarh to Chennai - find friends all over India. Go to http://in.promos. / groups/citygroup s/> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Check out the all-new Messenger 9.0! Go to http://in.messenger ./> Add more friends to your messenger and enjoy! Invite them now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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