On Adwaitism, Shiva's Worship and Different Paths

[Guest guest]

Namaste Kris and others,

 

I will make a few freewheeling comments. As always, please ignore this fool

if something sounds silly.

 

* * *

 

If you are interested in Advaitism (non-duality), I recommend reading the

works of Adi Shankara. He is considered a great teacher of Advaitism and an

incarnation of Lord Shiva Himself. In fact, a scripture mentions Shiva

telling Parvati that he will be born in Kali Yuga as Adi Shankara to revive

Advaitism and to refine the teachings of Buddha.

 

* * *

 

I personally consider " Yoga Vaasishtham " to be the highest treatise on

Advaitism. I have read many authors, but none matches the brilliance of

Vasishtha. After all, he is a maharshi and one of the saptarshis and it does

show.

 

Maharshi Vasishtha taught Lord Rama (an incarnation of Lord Vishnu) about

self-knowledge in great detail, in the presence of many gods and rishis

including Maharshi Vishwamitra. These teachings were later taught by

Maharshi Vaalmiki (author of Ramayana) to Maharshi Bharadwaja. Yoga

Vaasishtham is thus a detailed account of Maharshi Vasishtha's teachings

captured by Maharshi Vaalmiki.

 

The commentary by Swami Venkatesananda is quite an inspired one and I very

very strongly recommend it to everyone deeply interested in the highest

Hindu Advaitic philosophy. You can find it on amazon.com.

 

* * *

 

In " Yoga Vaasishtham " mentioned above, there is a beautiful narrative where

Maharshi Vasishtha describes to Lord Rama his meeting with Lord Shiva. Lord

Shiva teaches Vasishtha how to worship Him. He says, " there are many ways to

worship me that are used by many foolish people who desire various things.

They may even get various things worshipping me in those ways prescribed in

some scriptures. But those are inferior methods of worship. Let me tell you

the highest worship that is most dear to me. It is how a self-realized

person worships me. " He then describes the method so beautifully.

 

It is an absolutely beautiful account. I can say that Shiva's teachings to

Vasishtha on the best way to worship Him are the essence of Vedas, the

essence of BhagavadGeetha and the essence of the highest Hindu philosophy.

One interested in self-realization and moksha must read Shiva's teachings

and keep them at the back of their mind always.

 

I don't mean to be disrespectful to various aagamas and rituals prescribed

in various scriptures. They all serve a purpose. But, if one views moksha

(complete self-realization and the liberation that comes with it) as the

highest goal, one cannot ignore the worship recommended by Shiva Himself to

Vasishtha.

 

* * *

 

Hinduism is indeed a " collection of philosophies " . However, that may be a

misleading statement. It may suggest some inherent self-contradiction. That

would be unfair.

 

Though different ripples of an ocean look different, the underlying ocean is

the same. Similarly, the teachings of rishis form a single coherent

philosophy (ocean) that appears as many philosophies (ripples) on the

surface.

 

After all, Rigveda says " ekam sat vipraa bahudhaa vadanti " , which means

" Truth is One, but the learned call differently " . Though Hinduism had no " no

single founder " or ANY founder for that matter, all rishis tapped the same

" Single Source of Knowledge " (the Self, known variously as Brahman, Shiva,

Narayana, Krishna, Allah, Buddha etc) and hence there is a consistency in

their understanding.

 

Unfortunately, not everyone can dive deep into the ocean of self-knowledge.

Some are more comfortable floating on the surface (which is fun too). The

teachings of rishis have something for everyone. This gives the appearance

that rishis taught different contradicting philosophies. In fact, they

didn't.

 

* * *

 

Like the gentleman below mentioned, there are three main views regarding the

relationship between individual soul and the supreme soul. However, instead

of viewing them as competing theories, one can also view them as steps in

the same path. I want to share with all an *analogy* given by my spiritual

master Dr Manish Pandit:

 

Imagine God to be a bright star in the sky. When you see from a distance,

star seems tiny and you conclude that there is only one God. If you start

moving towards God, you realize as you get closer that the star is in

reality a huge diamond with 330 million faces. Each face is several miles

long and wide and has various attributes (gunas). One face may be red and

hot and another may be blue and cold etc. So, as you get closer to the

diamond, you have to pick one face to get close to.

 

Now, when you get too close to a face, the whole world will seem to have the

attributes of that face. For example, if you get too close to a face that is

cold and blue, then the whole world will feel cold and blue to you. In other

words, the God you are getting close to is the Supreme god of the world and

fills the entire world as you experience it. You think that the whole world

is filled with his energy. One who gets close to a blue face sees the whole

world as blue. One who gets close to a yellow face sees the whole world as

yellow. Similarly, a worshipper of Shiva may get close to Him and see Shiva

in all deities and all beings. A worshipper of Narayana may get close to Him

and see Narayana in all beings.

 

No wonder one scripture says that Brahma, Vishnu, Shiva etc all gods came

from Narayana, while another scripture says the same about Mahaganapathi,

while another scripture says the same thing about Shiva; and so on.

 

Reaching close to the deity is the ultimate goal in sadhana for one adhering

to Dwaita siddhanta (duality). For them, getting close to ishta devata,

securing a place near the feet and seeing the entire world as emanating from

that deity is the highest goal. All gods and entire creation are extensions

of that deity.

 

For some, there is a next stage: As you get closer and closer to the face

you picked, you finally merge with it! This is the ultimate goal in sadhana

for one adhering to Visishtaadwaita. You create a vaccum within yourself by

completing killing ego-consciousness and the deity in question fills the

vacuum.

 

To Advaitis, this communion with a Saguna ( " with attributes " ) form of God is

not the final goal. The final goal is to break through the face and jump

into the inside of the diamond. As you break through any face of the diamond

and jump into the interior of the diamond, you no longer perceive the faces

of the diamond or the world outside. There are no longer any objects or

attributes. There is no I-ness or It-ness or experience. The experiencer,

experienced and experience all merge into one. The same thing happens

irrespective of from which face the person jumped into the interior of the

diamond. Whether one enters a nirvikalpa samadhi through oneness with

Narayana or through oneness with Sadashiva or through oneness with

Mahaganapathi, the state reached is identical. The path only is different.

 

Some people can jump into the interior of this diamond without first

experiencing oneness with a face. Ramakrishna Paramahamsa's Adwaitic guru

Totapuri did not believe in any form and worshipped only the Formless

Reality. He would directly jump into the interior of the diamond in this

analogy. However, his disciple Ramakrishna Paramahamsa chose to first reach

oneness with Mother Kaali and then reach the interior of the diamond by

jumping from the face of the diamond representing Kaali. Both are valid

paths.

 

* * *

 

I have written too much tonight. Let me end here now.

 

Best regards,

Narasimha

-------------------------------

Homam manual and audio: http://www.VedicAstrologer.org/homam

Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro.home.comcast.net

Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAstrologer.org

Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagannath.org

-------------------------------

 

-

" shrivajra " <shrivajra

<sivacharya >

Sunday, July 01, 2007 9:26 AM

[sivacharya] Re: Will of Siva or karma?

 

 

> Dear mahahradanatha,

> You make a good point there. I always need to

> remind myself that Hinduism is a collection of

> philosophies and approaches which exist

> parallel to each other and may be grouped

> under a nominal title, like Shaivism.

>

> It's good to have a spread of opinion. My first

> brush with Shaivism was via a website dedicated

> to Swami Lakshmanjoo, the famous Kashmiri

> teacher who is, if I have understood it correctly,

> a monist. This has informed my expectations to

> some extent as I feel it resonates with Buddhism.

>

> http://www.universalshaivafellowship.org/index.html

>

> Would you consider the above site to be a fair

> representation of monist Shaivite teachings and

> who is considered to be the leading light of this

> approach nowadays?

>

> I am also in the process of reading the pdf file

> from this site's resources regarding Kashmiri

> culture.

>

> Best Regards

> Kris

>

> sivacharya , " mahahradanatha " <mahahradanatha

> wrote:

>>

>> --- I was under the assumption

>> > that within Shaivism all beings, in their true state,

>> > are inseparable from Siva but this is, perhaps,

>> > also a mistaken assumption, as it seems that

>> > only his 'avataara-s' may be considered so.

>>

>> Christianity islam and Buddhism has a single founder and therefore

>> there is no or very little variation to be found in their central

>> doctrines.

>>

>> You should become acquanted with the fact that Hinduism is different

>> it has no single founder and no central doctrines that are shared by

>> all, also Shavaism is differnt and there are many variations in

>> doctrine.

>>

>> One can broadly distinguish three variations of Hindu Philosophy

>> which describe the relation between the jiva and the creator

>> differently , broadly speaking they differ on the topic in the

>> following way: either tzey postulate that there exist an ultimate

>> unity, diversity, or unity in diversity, between the undefined state

>> of godhead (brahman) and the individualised jiva.

>>

>> Also in shaivaism you will find these variations and also schools of

>> thought, like for instance the Siddha mata that considerd iverse

>> philosophies as inferior to practice and put higher value on the

>> experience caused by yoga and upasana and in this way transcend all

>> these diversities of opinion.

>>

>> There is no school of thought in shaivaism i know of, that

>> postulates an identity of the crude " unprocessed " suffering jiva

>> still bound by karma and kleshas and defilements with lord siva.

>>

>> Recognition of an innate identity of jiva and siva, or the state of

>> transcendece cum immannence, that is postulated to occur in

>> consiousness by some schools of thought is only achived after the

>> jiva is cleaned of all karmas defilements and conditioning.

[Guest guest]

Namaste Kris and others,

 

Please tolerate some more freewheeling comments from me.

 

> It's all good fun if we don't take such claims

> too seriously. Posturing seems to come with

> the territory to some extent.

 

Rishis were very open-minded and had a perfectly integrated knowledge of all

aspects of the Unlimited (Brahman, non-dual Supreme Self) as well the

Limited (Maya, i.e. manifestation of Brahman as the dual world). They

understood Brahman as well as Maya and had mastery over both domains.

 

We are now in Kali Yuga and it is inevitable that biases, narrow-mindedness

and posturing enter the mindsets of many learned.

 

As long as one is living the dual reality, the duality enters all things.

Polarization is the very nature of duality. Good and bad, beautiful and

ugly, powerful and weak, learned and ignorant - all these seemingly opposite

polarities are a creation of the duality. Even when it comes to spiritual

progress and reaching god, there are polarities. There are seemingly

opposing paths. One scripture says one thing and another says the opposite.

One may take one word of one scripture as the ultimate Truth and another may

take another word of another scripture as the ultimate Truth. Unfortunately,

all the knowledge we get from books, gurus etc is still in the domain of

duality and not free from the phenomenon of opposites.

 

The only solution is to be firmly established in the non-dual Supreme Self

at all times and see each thing in the dual world for what it truly is, i.e.

yet another manifestation of the very same non-dual Self.

 

Such a state was achieved by so many rishis in the past. In this age,

however, such rishis are so rare. No wonder there is too much posturing and

disagreement.

 

* * *

 

> Your passage on Kaali bhakta was interesting as

> it points to a different outcome. Divine intoxication

> versus no experience and no mind. Perhaps both

> are experienced at some point in the path?

 

Yes, there were (and are) those who experienced both. However, there are

some who reject one of the two in favor of the other. Actually, one would be

most fortunate to reach either state.

 

If you look at the " star in the sky " analogy I gave earlier, you will see

different goals in Dwaita, Visishtadwaita and Adwaita paths. Some people

following one approach do not entertain notions corresponding to another

approach. However, some take them as diferent stops in the same journey.

 

* * *

 

I just want to make one more comment that is not directly relevant to the

discussion, but touches it on the periphery. May those who find my views and

analogies silly kindly ignore me.

 

Hard-core Adwaitis are essentially Vedantis and jnaana (gyaana) yogis. This

path is appropriate for someone who is already quite evolved. If one is too

deeply sunk in the delusion of this dual world appearance, it is a difficult

path. It is like telling someone who wants to reach the sky, " you are

already in the sky. Just realize it and be done " . The poor guy is very much

on earth and can by no means " realize " that he is " already in the sky " .

 

One who is rooted on earth and wants to reach the sky needs to engage in

some actions that elevate one and prepare one for reaching the sky. Various

tantras and rituals help in that. These are more appropriate for many people

than the path of Adwaita, jnaana yoga and contemplation.

 

However, if one gets too involved in building tall structures on earth, one

may find it interesting and keep on building taller and taller structures

and forget the ultimate goal of finally reaching the sky. Building tall

structures will help one rise from earth, but not help one reach the sky.

However tall a building one builds, it will still not take one to the sky.

Reaching the sky is not about building tall buildings. Books and gurus can

teach one how to build tall structures, but the final leap into the sky is

untaught.

 

In the analogy I am talking about here, Adwaitic self-realization is akin to

reaching the sky. Normal state of a person is akin to being on earth.

Building tall structures on earth is akin to engaging in various tantras,

rituals and practices to progress spiritually.

 

By engaging in more and more practices, one may experience more and more

things and get some siddhis etc. This is akin to building tall structures

and climbing them. Even as one builds tall structures, the final goal of

reaching the sky should be at the back of one's mind. Otherwise, one can get

lost in the practices and not reach the final goal.

 

There is no fool-proof approach to have an Adwaitic self-realization. Even

as one engages in various practices, one should keep the final goal at the

back of mind. That is why I recommend reading Vedanta works like " Yoga

Vaasishtham " and various Upanishats and keeping the high philosophy at the

back of mind even while engaging in various practices.

 

Enough for today..

 

Best regards,

Narasimha

-------------------------------

Homam manual and audio: http://www.VedicAstrologer.org/homam

Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro.home.comcast.net

Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAstrologer.org

Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagannath.org

-------------------------------

 

-

" shrivajra " <shrivajra

<sivacharya >

Tuesday, July 03, 2007 11:39 AM

[sivacharya] Re: On Adwaitism, Shiva's Worship and Different Paths

 

 

> Namaste Narasimha,

> The 'return to Shiva' page that I found has

> already helped me to contextualise some

> powerful experiences I have had in meditation

> and it wonderfully complements some very

> advanced interpretations of the Pali teachings

> I have recently read. So, needless to say that

> Yoga Vaasishtham is now on my 'to buy' list.

>

> I'll also keep an eye open for Adi Shankara's

> work. It's interesting that he was accused of

> being a 'concealed Buddhist'. Some Mahayana

> Buddhists get accused of being concealed

> Hindus :-)

> It's all good fun if we don't take such claims

> too seriously. Posturing seems to come with

> the territory to some extent.

>

> Your passage on Kaali bhakta was interesting as

> it points to a different outcome. Divine intoxication

> versus no experience and no mind. Perhaps both

> are experienced at some point in the path?

>

> Regards

> Kris

>

>

> sivacharya , " Narasimha P.V.R. Rao " <pvr wrote:

>>

>> Namaste Kris,

>>

>> I may write more later. Qucik replies for now..

>>

>> Yes, the " Return to Shiva " link sent by you is from Yoga Vaasishtham. It

>> is

>> not what I was referring to, but it is beautiful as well. Yoga

>> Vaasishtham

>> is full of beautiful passages.

>>

>> Yes, the third one on the search link sent by you is the commentary I was

>> referring to.

>>

>> You can find a lot of material on Adi Shankara. He was a prolific teacher

>> who taught Adwaita. Many scholars at that time did not like Buddha. At a

>> time when Vedic scholars forgot the essence of Veda and hung on to words

>> without an understanding of their true meaning, Buddha taught the essence

>> of

>> Veda. This was unpalatable to many Hindu scholars and they dismissed him.

>> When Adi Shankara taught similar things, they criticized Adi Shankara

>> saying

>> that he was teaching " concealed Buddhism " .

>>

>> There are verses in " Padma Purana " (6.236.6-11) in which Shiva tells

>> Parvati

>> that He will be born in Kali yuga as a Brahmin and teach the science of

>> the

>> falsehood of the illusory appearance of this world. He says that he will

>> explain the misunderstood words of scriptures and teach the formless

>> nature

>> of Brahman. There he mentions that the theory taught by him will envelop

>> Buddhism ( " bauddham " ).

>>

>> If you read " Yoga Vaasishtham " , you will see that what Vasishtha taught

>> Lord

>> Rama is not much different from what Buddha taught.

>>

>> * * *

>>

>> > " There is no I-ness or It-ness or experience. The experiencer,

>> > experienced and experience all merge into one " .

>> >

>> > A perfect description of the state of non-duality

>> > where all 'lines in the sand' have been blown away.

>> > It seems that the result is ultimately the same.

>>

>> The state reached ultimately is the same. Whether a jnaani reaches it

>> through contemplation or a Kaali bhakta reaches it through oneness with

>> Kaali, the state is the same.

>>

>> But some Hindu masters like oneness with a form more than the above

>> state

>> of oneness with the Formless Reality. When one's ego completely melts and

>> obtains oneness with a deity, mind is very much active and experiences

>> diverse objects as extensions of that deity. Some masters find this state

>> (referred to by Ramakrishna Paramahamsa as " divine intoxication " ) a more

>> blissful experience than a state where there is no experience and no mind

>> (nirvikalpa samadhi).

>>

>> After talking about Nirvikalpa Samadhi and Adwaita, I just wanted to

>> offer a

>> different perspective..

>>

>> Best regards,

>> Narasimha

>> -------------------------------

>> Homam manual and audio: http://www.VedicAstrologer.org/homam

>> Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro.home.comcast.net

>> Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAstrologer.org

>> Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagannath.org

>> -------------------------------

>>

>> -

>> " shrivajra " <shrivajra

>> <sivacharya >

>> Monday, July 02, 2007 6:16 AM

>> [sivacharya] Re: On Adwaitism, Shiva's Worship and Different

>> Paths

>>

>>

>> > Namaste Narasimha,

>> > Many thanks for a beautiful and sublime reply.

>> > I find nothing " freewheeling " or " foolish " in it.

>> > It contextualises the remark you made in your

>> > welcome message and I can see what you mean.

>> >

>> > Your tip sent me off on a google search and I

>> > encountered one of the most wonderful texts I

>> > have ever read entitled Returning To Shiva.

>> > I wondered if it was taken from the Yoga

>> > Vaasishtham text you mentioned:

>> > http://www.spiritual-teachers.com/returntoshiva.htm

>> >

>> > As far as the book is concerned, I assume it is one

>> > of the following on this list:

>> > http://www.amazon.co.uk/s/ref=nb_ss_w_h_/202-8181829-0418252?url=search-

>> > alias%3Daps & field-keywords=Swami+Venkatesananda & Go.x=0 & Go.y=0 & Go=Go

>> > Perhaps the first or the third?

>> >

>> > I am interested in what you say concerning

>> > Adi Shankara, especially when you mention that he

>> > " refined " the teachings of Buddha. Are there any

>> > texts which deal with this specifically? I, myself,

>> > am starting to see less and less to differentiate

>> > the ultimate Buddhist view and that of the Advaitis

>> > you so beautifully outlined below:

>> >

>> > " There is no I-ness or It-ness or experience. The experiencer,

>> > experienced and experience all merge into one " .

>> >

>> > A perfect description of the state of non-duality

>> > where all 'lines in the sand' have been blown away.

>> > It seems that the result is ultimately the same.

>> >

>> > Best Regards

>> > Kris

>> >

>> > sivacharya , " Narasimha P.V.R. Rao " <pvr@> wrote:

>> >>

>> >> Namaste Kris and others,

>> >>

>> >> I will make a few freewheeling comments. As always, please ignore this

>> >> fool

>> >> if something sounds silly.

>> >>

>> >> * * *

>> >>

>> >> If you are interested in Advaitism (non-duality), I recommend reading

>> >> the

>> >> works of Adi Shankara. He is considered a great teacher of Advaitism

>> >> and

>> >> an

>> >> incarnation of Lord Shiva Himself. In fact, a scripture mentions Shiva

>> >> telling Parvati that he will be born in Kali Yuga as Adi Shankara to

>> >> revive

>> >> Advaitism and to refine the teachings of Buddha.

>> >>

>> >> * * *

>> >>

>> >> I personally consider " Yoga Vaasishtham " to be the highest treatise on

>> >> Advaitism. I have read many authors, but none matches the brilliance

>> >> of

>> >> Vasishtha. After all, he is a maharshi and one of the saptarshis and

>> >> it

>> >> does

>> >> show.

>> >>

>> >> Maharshi Vasishtha taught Lord Rama (an incarnation of Lord Vishnu)

>> >> about

>> >> self-knowledge in great detail, in the presence of many gods and

>> >> rishis

>> >> including Maharshi Vishwamitra. These teachings were later taught by

>> >> Maharshi Vaalmiki (author of Ramayana) to Maharshi Bharadwaja. Yoga

>> >> Vaasishtham is thus a detailed account of Maharshi Vasishtha's

>> >> teachings

>> >> captured by Maharshi Vaalmiki.

>> >>

>> >> The commentary by Swami Venkatesananda is quite an inspired one and I

>> >> very

>> >> very strongly recommend it to everyone deeply interested in the

>> >> highest

>> >> Hindu Advaitic philosophy. You can find it on amazon.com.

>> >>

>> >> * * *

>> >>

>> >> In " Yoga Vaasishtham " mentioned above, there is a beautiful narrative

>> >> where

>> >> Maharshi Vasishtha describes to Lord Rama his meeting with Lord Shiva.

>> >> Lord

>> >> Shiva teaches Vasishtha how to worship Him. He says, " there are many

>> >> ways

>> >> to

>> >> worship me that are used by many foolish people who desire various

>> >> things.

>> >> They may even get various things worshipping me in those ways

>> >> prescribed

>> >> in

>> >> some scriptures. But those are inferior methods of worship. Let me

>> >> tell

>> >> you

>> >> the highest worship that is most dear to me. It is how a self-realized

>> >> person worships me. " He then describes the method so beautifully.

>> >>

>> >> It is an absolutely beautiful account. I can say that Shiva's

>> >> teachings

>> >> to

>> >> Vasishtha on the best way to worship Him are the essence of Vedas, the

>> >> essence of BhagavadGeetha and the essence of the highest Hindu

>> >> philosophy.

>> >> One interested in self-realization and moksha must read Shiva's

>> >> teachings

>> >> and keep them at the back of their mind always.

>> >>

>> >> I don't mean to be disrespectful to various aagamas and rituals

>> >> prescribed

>> >> in various scriptures. They all serve a purpose. But, if one views

>> >> moksha

>> >> (complete self-realization and the liberation that comes with it) as

>> >> the

>> >> highest goal, one cannot ignore the worship recommended by Shiva

>> >> Himself

>> >> to

>> >> Vasishtha.

>> >>

>> >> * * *

>> >>

>> >> Hinduism is indeed a " collection of philosophies " . However, that may

>> >> be a

>> >> misleading statement. It may suggest some inherent self-contradiction.

>> >> That

>> >> would be unfair.

>> >>

>> >> Though different ripples of an ocean look different, the underlying

>> >> ocean

>> >> is

>> >> the same. Similarly, the teachings of rishis form a single coherent

>> >> philosophy (ocean) that appears as many philosophies (ripples) on the

>> >> surface.

>> >>

>> >> After all, Rigveda says " ekam sat vipraa bahudhaa vadanti " , which

>> >> means

>> >> " Truth is One, but the learned call differently " . Though Hinduism had

>> >> no

>> >> " no

>> >> single founder " or ANY founder for that matter, all rishis tapped the

>> >> same

>> >> " Single Source of Knowledge " (the Self, known variously as Brahman,

>> >> Shiva,

>> >> Narayana, Krishna, Allah, Buddha etc) and hence there is a consistency

>> >> in

>> >> their understanding.

>> >>

>> >> Unfortunately, not everyone can dive deep into the ocean of

>> >> self-knowledge.

>> >> Some are more comfortable floating on the surface (which is fun too).

>> >> The

>> >> teachings of rishis have something for everyone. This gives the

>> >> appearance

>> >> that rishis taught different contradicting philosophies. In fact, they

>> >> didn't.

>> >>

>> >> * * *

>> >>

>> >> Like the gentleman below mentioned, there are three main views

>> >> regarding

>> >> the

>> >> relationship between individual soul and the supreme soul. However,

>> >> instead

>> >> of viewing them as competing theories, one can also view them as steps

>> >> in

>> >> the same path. I want to share with all an *analogy* given by my

>> >> spiritual

>> >> master Dr Manish Pandit:

>> >>

>> >> Imagine God to be a bright star in the sky. When you see from a

>> >> distance,

>> >> star seems tiny and you conclude that there is only one God. If you

>> >> start

>> >> moving towards God, you realize as you get closer that the star is in

>> >> reality a huge diamond with 330 million faces. Each face is several

>> >> miles

>> >> long and wide and has various attributes (gunas). One face may be red

>> >> and

>> >> hot and another may be blue and cold etc. So, as you get closer to the

>> >> diamond, you have to pick one face to get close to.

>> >>

>> >> Now, when you get too close to a face, the whole world will seem to

>> >> have

>> >> the

>> >> attributes of that face. For example, if you get too close to a face

>> >> that

>> >> is

>> >> cold and blue, then the whole world will feel cold and blue to you. In

>> >> other

>> >> words, the God you are getting close to is the Supreme god of the

>> >> world

>> >> and

>> >> fills the entire world as you experience it. You think that the whole

>> >> world

>> >> is filled with his energy. One who gets close to a blue face sees the

>> >> whole

>> >> world as blue. One who gets close to a yellow face sees the whole

>> >> world

>> >> as

>> >> yellow. Similarly, a worshipper of Shiva may get close to Him and see

>> >> Shiva

>> >> in all deities and all beings. A worshipper of Narayana may get close

>> >> to

>> >> Him

>> >> and see Narayana in all beings.

>> >>

>> >> No wonder one scripture says that Brahma, Vishnu, Shiva etc all gods

>> >> came

>> >> from Narayana, while another scripture says the same about

>> >> Mahaganapathi,

>> >> while another scripture says the same thing about Shiva; and so on.

>> >>

>> >> Reaching close to the deity is the ultimate goal in sadhana for one

>> >> adhering

>> >> to Dwaita siddhanta (duality). For them, getting close to ishta

>> >> devata,

>> >> securing a place near the feet and seeing the entire world as

>> >> emanating

>> >> from

>> >> that deity is the highest goal. All gods and entire creation are

>> >> extensions

>> >> of that deity.

>> >>

>> >> For some, there is a next stage: As you get closer and closer to the

>> >> face

>> >> you picked, you finally merge with it! This is the ultimate goal in

>> >> sadhana

>> >> for one adhering to Visishtaadwaita. You create a vaccum within

>> >> yourself

>> >> by

>> >> completing killing ego-consciousness and the deity in question fills

>> >> the

>> >> vacuum.

>> >>

>> >> To Advaitis, this communion with a Saguna ( " with attributes " ) form of

>> >> God

>> >> is

>> >> not the final goal. The final goal is to break through the face and

>> >> jump

>> >> into the inside of the diamond. As you break through any face of the

>> >> diamond

>> >> and jump into the interior of the diamond, you no longer perceive the

>> >> faces

>> >> of the diamond or the world outside. There are no longer any objects

>> >> or

>> >> attributes. There is no I-ness or It-ness or experience. The

>> >> experiencer,

>> >> experienced and experience all merge into one. The same thing happens

>> >> irrespective of from which face the person jumped into the interior of

>> >> the

>> >> diamond. Whether one enters a nirvikalpa samadhi through oneness with

>> >> Narayana or through oneness with Sadashiva or through oneness with

>> >> Mahaganapathi, the state reached is identical. The path only is

>> >> different.

>> >>

>> >> Some people can jump into the interior of this diamond without first

>> >> experiencing oneness with a face. Ramakrishna Paramahamsa's Adwaitic

>> >> guru

>> >> Totapuri did not believe in any form and worshipped only the Formless

>> >> Reality. He would directly jump into the interior of the diamond in

>> >> this

>> >> analogy. However, his disciple Ramakrishna Paramahamsa chose to first

>> >> reach

>> >> oneness with Mother Kaali and then reach the interior of the diamond

>> >> by

>> >> jumping from the face of the diamond representing Kaali. Both are

>> >> valid

>> >> paths.

>> >>

>> >> * * *

>> >>

>> >> I have written too much tonight. Let me end here now.

>> >>

>> >> Best regards,

>> >> Narasimha

>> >> -------------------------------

>> >> Homam manual and audio: http://www.VedicAstrologer.org/homam

>> >> Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro.home.comcast.net

>> >> Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAstrologer.org

>> >> Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagannath.org

>> >> -------------------------------

[Guest guest]

Namaste Kris,

 

> We could

> say that there are two ways of labelling self-realization, I'll call them

> the

> `positive' and the `negative' for want of better words and lack of

> imagination.

 

Yes, the two paths you mentioned are well-known (and mentioned in Yoga

Vaasishtham), but they are not known as the positive and negative paths. The

path of exclusion keeps on eliminating everything in this manifested world

appearance as " this is not Self " , in order to realize what IS Self. After

eliminating everything, what is left is the Self/Brahman. This path

predominantly exercises Pingala/Surya nadi (solar channel of energy flow).

 

The path of inclusion considers everything as Self. Even the limited

manifestations of Brahman are considered as Self only and accepted thus. One

sees Self in all that is manifested. This path predominantly exercises

Ida/Chandra nadi (lunar channel of energy flow).

 

In both the paths, one overcomes the simple and finite concept of I-ness

with something more infinite.

 

Best regards,

Narasimha

-------------------------------

Homam manual and audio: http://www.VedicAstrologer.org/homam

Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro.home.comcast.net

Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAstrologer.org

Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagannath.org

-------------------------------

 

-

" shrivajra " <shrivajra

<sivacharya >

Friday, July 06, 2007 12:24 PM

[sivacharya] Re: On Adwaitism, Shiva's Worship and Different Paths

 

 

> Dear Narasimha,

> Many thanks for a beautiful and uplifting post. You wrote:

>

> " We are now in Kali Yuga and it is inevitable that biases,

> narrow-mindedness and posturing enter the mindsets of

> many learned " .

>

> One thing that always inspired me was what I learned of the

> great monastery of Nalanda. A centre of learning and practice

> for both Hindus and Buddhists. Also in many suttas we witness

> debates between wandering holy men and the Buddha. Debates

> marked with humility, respect and a true thirst for knowledge.

>

> I have always felt a deep affection for the Hindu traditions as I

> understand how very close we are when it comes to the final

> steps. Like siblings in an empty world we really only have each

> other. Which other theist position can match the sublime

> qualities that are the pinnacle of your faith?

>

> I truly regret that I will never be a part of such blissful company

> as was known then.

>

> " However, if one gets too involved in building tall structures on earth,

> one

> may find it interesting and keep on building taller and taller structures

> and forget the ultimate goal of finally reaching the sky "

>

> This is very true. An eagle relies on its wings to soar effortlessly

> in the sky but once there the creature has no need to think about

> them. It is as if they `vanish'.

>

> " There is no fool-proof approach to have an Adwaitic self-realization.

> Even

> as one engages in various practices, one should keep the final goal at the

> back of mind "

>

> Please permit me to freewheel and offer some foolish remarks. We could

> say that there are two ways of labelling self-realization, I'll call them

> the

> `positive' and the `negative' for want of better words and lack of

> imagination.

>

> With the `positive' we are one with the All, like a raindrop in the ocean.

> Not

> only can we not find any distinction between the drop and the water around

> it,

> it is the limitless ocean itself.

>

> With the `negative', All is `not-self'. There is nothing of `us' to find

> anywhere,

> no line can be drawn in the sand, no quarter given, release - like a cloud

> vanished into an empty sky.

>

> We may be standing at opposite sides of a circle but, in truth, this

> circle

> only has one side and one epicentre.

>

> Namaste

> Kris

>

> sivacharya , " Narasimha P.V.R. Rao " <pvr wrote:

>>

>> Namaste Kris and others,

>>

>> Please tolerate some more freewheeling comments from me.

>>

>> > It's all good fun if we don't take such claims

>> > too seriously. Posturing seems to come with

>> > the territory to some extent.

>>

>> Rishis were very open-minded and had a perfectly integrated knowledge of

>> all

>> aspects of the Unlimited (Brahman, non-dual Supreme Self) as well the

>> Limited (Maya, i.e. manifestation of Brahman as the dual world). They

>> understood Brahman as well as Maya and had mastery over both domains.

>>

>> We are now in Kali Yuga and it is inevitable that biases,

>> narrow-mindedness

>> and posturing enter the mindsets of many learned.

>>

>> As long as one is living the dual reality, the duality enters all things.

>> Polarization is the very nature of duality. Good and bad, beautiful and

>> ugly, powerful and weak, learned and ignorant - all these seemingly

>> opposite

>> polarities are a creation of the duality. Even when it comes to spiritual

>> progress and reaching god, there are polarities. There are seemingly

>> opposing paths. One scripture says one thing and another says the

>> opposite.

>> One may take one word of one scripture as the ultimate Truth and another

>> may

>> take another word of another scripture as the ultimate Truth.

>> Unfortunately,

>> all the knowledge we get from books, gurus etc is still in the domain of

>> duality and not free from the phenomenon of opposites.

>>

>> The only solution is to be firmly established in the non-dual Supreme

>> Self

>> at all times and see each thing in the dual world for what it truly is,

>> i.e.

>> yet another manifestation of the very same non-dual Self.

>>

>> Such a state was achieved by so many rishis in the past. In this age,

>> however, such rishis are so rare. No wonder there is too much posturing

>> and

>> disagreement.

>>

>> * * *

>>

>> > Your passage on Kaali bhakta was interesting as

>> > it points to a different outcome. Divine intoxication

>> > versus no experience and no mind. Perhaps both

>> > are experienced at some point in the path?

>>

>> Yes, there were (and are) those who experienced both. However, there are

>> some who reject one of the two in favor of the other. Actually, one would

>> be

>> most fortunate to reach either state.

>>

>> If you look at the " star in the sky " analogy I gave earlier, you will see

>> different goals in Dwaita, Visishtadwaita and Adwaita paths. Some people

>> following one approach do not entertain notions corresponding to another

>> approach. However, some take them as diferent stops in the same journey.

>>

>> * * *

>>

>> I just want to make one more comment that is not directly relevant to the

>> discussion, but touches it on the periphery. May those who find my views

>> and

>> analogies silly kindly ignore me.

>>

>> Hard-core Adwaitis are essentially Vedantis and jnaana (gyaana) yogis.

>> This

>> path is appropriate for someone who is already quite evolved. If one is

>> too

>> deeply sunk in the delusion of this dual world appearance, it is a

>> difficult

>> path. It is like telling someone who wants to reach the sky, " you are

>> already in the sky. Just realize it and be done " . The poor guy is very

>> much

>> on earth and can by no means " realize " that he is " already in the sky " .

>>

>> One who is rooted on earth and wants to reach the sky needs to engage in

>> some actions that elevate one and prepare one for reaching the sky.

>> Various

>> tantras and rituals help in that. These are more appropriate for many

>> people

>> than the path of Adwaita, jnaana yoga and contemplation.

>>

>> However, if one gets too involved in building tall structures on earth,

>> one

>> may find it interesting and keep on building taller and taller structures

>> and forget the ultimate goal of finally reaching the sky. Building tall

>> structures will help one rise from earth, but not help one reach the sky.

>> However tall a building one builds, it will still not take one to the

>> sky.

>> Reaching the sky is not about building tall buildings. Books and gurus

>> can

>> teach one how to build tall structures, but the final leap into the sky

>> is

>> untaught.

>>

>> In the analogy I am talking about here, Adwaitic self-realization is akin

>> to

>> reaching the sky. Normal state of a person is akin to being on earth.

>> Building tall structures on earth is akin to engaging in various tantras,

>> rituals and practices to progress spiritually.

>>

>> By engaging in more and more practices, one may experience more and more

>> things and get some siddhis etc. This is akin to building tall structures

>> and climbing them. Even as one builds tall structures, the final goal of

>> reaching the sky should be at the back of one's mind. Otherwise, one can

>> get

>> lost in the practices and not reach the final goal.

>>

>> There is no fool-proof approach to have an Adwaitic self-realization.

>> Even

>> as one engages in various practices, one should keep the final goal at

>> the

>> back of mind. That is why I recommend reading Vedanta works like " Yoga

>> Vaasishtham " and various Upanishats and keeping the high philosophy at

>> the

>> back of mind even while engaging in various practices.

>>

>> Enough for today..

>>

>> Best regards,

>> Narasimha

>> -------------------------------

>> Homam manual and audio: http://www.VedicAstrologer.org/homam

>> Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro.home.comcast.net

>> Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAstrologer.org

>> Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagannath.org

>> -------------------------------

[Guest guest]

Narsimha Garu,

 

>There is no fool-proof approach to have an Adwaitic self-

>realization. Even

>as one engages in various practices, one should keep the final goal

>at the

>back of mind. That is why I recommend reading Vedanta works

>like " Yoga

>Vaasishtham " and various Upanishats and keeping the high philosophy

>at the

>back of mind even while engaging in various practices.

 

 

Aaapne mere Dil ki baat chhin li... this para gives a wonderful

message as well as clears lot of confusions. the human mind is such

that it gets involved in many seemingly opposite paths at the same

time. for instance in spiritual quest, it engages in Rituals,

Devotional Songs, Japa on one side whereas on the other side it also

practices Yoga Maarg, Meditation etc and not enough with that it

also likes to contemplate on 'Self Enquiry'. I have always felt that

Integration is possible and can also prove very effective. But

bottom line for me is what Thakur said, that is to cultivate Love

for Almighty is absolutely necessary otherwise there is great danger

of sticking to the taller buildings while forgeting the ultimate

leap to reach the sky.

 

I am also firm believer of the statement " Ja ja mata ta ta Pata'.

Faith is the most important. if somebody Takes a Mobile Phone

instrument & believes that His God is that, then with sincere belief

& persistent efforts, he or she will ultimately reach the Goal thro'

that Mobile instrument.

 

lot of freewheeling thoughts from me. I am sorry if it sounded

absurd.

 

Warm Regards,

 

Utpal

 

 

 

, " Narasimha P.V.R. Rao "

<pvr wrote:

>

> Namaste Kris and others,

>

> Please tolerate some more freewheeling comments from me.

>

> > It's all good fun if we don't take such claims

> > too seriously. Posturing seems to come with

> > the territory to some extent.

>

> Rishis were very open-minded and had a perfectly integrated

knowledge of all

> aspects of the Unlimited (Brahman, non-dual Supreme Self) as well

the

> Limited (Maya, i.e. manifestation of Brahman as the dual world).

They

> understood Brahman as well as Maya and had mastery over both

domains.

>

> We are now in Kali Yuga and it is inevitable that biases, narrow-

mindedness

> and posturing enter the mindsets of many learned.

>

> As long as one is living the dual reality, the duality enters all

things.

> Polarization is the very nature of duality. Good and bad,

beautiful and

> ugly, powerful and weak, learned and ignorant - all these

seemingly opposite

> polarities are a creation of the duality. Even when it comes to

spiritual

> progress and reaching god, there are polarities. There are

seemingly

> opposing paths. One scripture says one thing and another says the

opposite.

> One may take one word of one scripture as the ultimate Truth and

another may

> take another word of another scripture as the ultimate Truth.

Unfortunately,

> all the knowledge we get from books, gurus etc is still in the

domain of

> duality and not free from the phenomenon of opposites.

>

> The only solution is to be firmly established in the non-dual

Supreme Self

> at all times and see each thing in the dual world for what it

truly is, i.e.

> yet another manifestation of the very same non-dual Self.

>

> Such a state was achieved by so many rishis in the past. In this

age,

> however, such rishis are so rare. No wonder there is too much

posturing and

> disagreement.

>

> * * *

>

> > Your passage on Kaali bhakta was interesting as

> > it points to a different outcome. Divine intoxication

> > versus no experience and no mind. Perhaps both

> > are experienced at some point in the path?

>

> Yes, there were (and are) those who experienced both. However,

there are

> some who reject one of the two in favor of the other. Actually,

one would be

> most fortunate to reach either state.

>

> If you look at the " star in the sky " analogy I gave earlier, you

will see

> different goals in Dwaita, Visishtadwaita and Adwaita paths. Some

people

> following one approach do not entertain notions corresponding to

another

> approach. However, some take them as diferent stops in the same

journey.

>

> * * *

>

> I just want to make one more comment that is not directly relevant

to the

> discussion, but touches it on the periphery. May those who find my

views and

> analogies silly kindly ignore me.

>

> Hard-core Adwaitis are essentially Vedantis and jnaana (gyaana)

yogis. This

> path is appropriate for someone who is already quite evolved. If

one is too

> deeply sunk in the delusion of this dual world appearance, it is a

difficult

> path. It is like telling someone who wants to reach the sky, " you

are

> already in the sky. Just realize it and be done " . The poor guy is

very much

> on earth and can by no means " realize " that he is " already in the

sky " .

>

> One who is rooted on earth and wants to reach the sky needs to

engage in

> some actions that elevate one and prepare one for reaching the

sky. Various

> tantras and rituals help in that. These are more appropriate for

many people

> than the path of Adwaita, jnaana yoga and contemplation.

>

> However, if one gets too involved in building tall structures on

earth, one

> may find it interesting and keep on building taller and taller

structures

> and forget the ultimate goal of finally reaching the sky. Building

tall

> structures will help one rise from earth, but not help one reach

the sky.

> However tall a building one builds, it will still not take one to

the sky.

> Reaching the sky is not about building tall buildings. Books and

gurus can

> teach one how to build tall structures, but the final leap into

the sky is

> untaught.

>

> In the analogy I am talking about here, Adwaitic self-realization

is akin to

> reaching the sky. Normal state of a person is akin to being on

earth.

> Building tall structures on earth is akin to engaging in various

tantras,

> rituals and practices to progress spiritually.

>

> By engaging in more and more practices, one may experience more

and more

> things and get some siddhis etc. This is akin to building tall

structures

> and climbing them. Even as one builds tall structures, the final

goal of

> reaching the sky should be at the back of one's mind. Otherwise,

one can get

> lost in the practices and not reach the final goal.

>

> There is no fool-proof approach to have an Adwaitic self-

realization. Even

> as one engages in various practices, one should keep the final

goal at the

> back of mind. That is why I recommend reading Vedanta works

like " Yoga

> Vaasishtham " and various Upanishats and keeping the high

philosophy at the

> back of mind even while engaging in various practices.

>

> Enough for today..

>

> Best regards,

> Narasimha

> -------------------------------

> Homam manual and audio: http://www.VedicAstrologer.org/homam

> Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro.home.comcast.net

> Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAstrologer.org

> Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagannath.org

> -------------------------------

>

> -

> " shrivajra " <shrivajra

> <sivacharya >

> Tuesday, July 03, 2007 11:39 AM

> [sivacharya] Re: On Adwaitism, Shiva's Worship and

Different Paths

>

>

> > Namaste Narasimha,

> > The 'return to Shiva' page that I found has

> > already helped me to contextualise some

> > powerful experiences I have had in meditation

> > and it wonderfully complements some very

> > advanced interpretations of the Pali teachings

> > I have recently read. So, needless to say that

> > Yoga Vaasishtham is now on my 'to buy' list.

> >

> > I'll also keep an eye open for Adi Shankara's

> > work. It's interesting that he was accused of

> > being a 'concealed Buddhist'. Some Mahayana

> > Buddhists get accused of being concealed

> > Hindus :-)

> > It's all good fun if we don't take such claims

> > too seriously. Posturing seems to come with

> > the territory to some extent.

> >

> > Your passage on Kaali bhakta was interesting as

> > it points to a different outcome. Divine intoxication

> > versus no experience and no mind. Perhaps both

> > are experienced at some point in the path?

> >

> > Regards

> > Kris

> >

> >

> > sivacharya , " Narasimha P.V.R. Rao " <pvr@>

wrote:

> >>

> >> Namaste Kris,

> >>

> >> I may write more later. Qucik replies for now..

> >>

> >> Yes, the " Return to Shiva " link sent by you is from Yoga

Vaasishtham. It

> >> is

> >> not what I was referring to, but it is beautiful as well. Yoga

> >> Vaasishtham

> >> is full of beautiful passages.

> >>

> >> Yes, the third one on the search link sent by you is the

commentary I was

> >> referring to.

> >>

> >> You can find a lot of material on Adi Shankara. He was a

prolific teacher

> >> who taught Adwaita. Many scholars at that time did not like

Buddha. At a

> >> time when Vedic scholars forgot the essence of Veda and hung on

to words

> >> without an understanding of their true meaning, Buddha taught

the essence

> >> of

> >> Veda. This was unpalatable to many Hindu scholars and they

dismissed him.

> >> When Adi Shankara taught similar things, they criticized Adi

Shankara

> >> saying

> >> that he was teaching " concealed Buddhism " .

> >>

> >> There are verses in " Padma Purana " (6.236.6-11) in which Shiva

tells

> >> Parvati

> >> that He will be born in Kali yuga as a Brahmin and teach the

science of

> >> the

> >> falsehood of the illusory appearance of this world. He says

that he will

> >> explain the misunderstood words of scriptures and teach the

formless

> >> nature

> >> of Brahman. There he mentions that the theory taught by him

will envelop

> >> Buddhism ( " bauddham " ).

> >>

> >> If you read " Yoga Vaasishtham " , you will see that what

Vasishtha taught

> >> Lord

> >> Rama is not much different from what Buddha taught.

> >>

> >> * * *

> >>

> >> > " There is no I-ness or It-ness or experience. The experiencer,

> >> > experienced and experience all merge into one " .

> >> >

> >> > A perfect description of the state of non-duality

> >> > where all 'lines in the sand' have been blown away.

> >> > It seems that the result is ultimately the same.

> >>

> >> The state reached ultimately is the same. Whether a jnaani

reaches it

> >> through contemplation or a Kaali bhakta reaches it through

oneness with

> >> Kaali, the state is the same.

> >>

> >> But some Hindu masters like oneness with a form more than the

above

> >> state

> >> of oneness with the Formless Reality. When one's ego completely

melts and

> >> obtains oneness with a deity, mind is very much active and

experiences

> >> diverse objects as extensions of that deity. Some masters find

this state

> >> (referred to by Ramakrishna Paramahamsa as " divine

intoxication " ) a more

> >> blissful experience than a state where there is no experience

and no mind

> >> (nirvikalpa samadhi).

> >>

> >> After talking about Nirvikalpa Samadhi and Adwaita, I just

wanted to

> >> offer a

> >> different perspective..

> >>

> >> Best regards,

> >> Narasimha

> >> -------------------------------

> >> Homam manual and audio: http://www.VedicAstrologer.org/homam

> >> Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro.home.comcast.net

> >> Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAstrologer.org

> >> Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagannath.org

> >> -------------------------------

> >>

> >> -

> >> " shrivajra " <shrivajra@>

> >> <sivacharya >

> >> Monday, July 02, 2007 6:16 AM

> >> [sivacharya] Re: On Adwaitism, Shiva's Worship and

Different

> >> Paths

> >>

> >>

> >> > Namaste Narasimha,

> >> > Many thanks for a beautiful and sublime reply.

> >> > I find nothing " freewheeling " or " foolish " in it.

> >> > It contextualises the remark you made in your

> >> > welcome message and I can see what you mean.

> >> >

> >> > Your tip sent me off on a google search and I

> >> > encountered one of the most wonderful texts I

> >> > have ever read entitled Returning To Shiva.

> >> > I wondered if it was taken from the Yoga

> >> > Vaasishtham text you mentioned:

> >> > http://www.spiritual-teachers.com/returntoshiva.htm

> >> >

> >> > As far as the book is concerned, I assume it is one

> >> > of the following on this list:

> >> > http://www.amazon.co.uk/s/ref=nb_ss_w_h_/202-8181829-0418252?

url=search-

> >> > alias%3Daps & field-

keywords=Swami+Venkatesananda & Go.x=0 & Go.y=0 & Go=Go

> >> > Perhaps the first or the third?

> >> >

> >> > I am interested in what you say concerning

> >> > Adi Shankara, especially when you mention that he

> >> > " refined " the teachings of Buddha. Are there any

> >> > texts which deal with this specifically? I, myself,

> >> > am starting to see less and less to differentiate

> >> > the ultimate Buddhist view and that of the Advaitis

> >> > you so beautifully outlined below:

> >> >

> >> > " There is no I-ness or It-ness or experience. The experiencer,

> >> > experienced and experience all merge into one " .

> >> >

> >> > A perfect description of the state of non-duality

> >> > where all 'lines in the sand' have been blown away.

> >> > It seems that the result is ultimately the same.

> >> >

> >> > Best Regards

> >> > Kris

> >> >

> >> > sivacharya , " Narasimha P.V.R. Rao "

<pvr@> wrote:

> >> >>

> >> >> Namaste Kris and others,

> >> >>

> >> >> I will make a few freewheeling comments. As always, please

ignore this

> >> >> fool

> >> >> if something sounds silly.

> >> >>

> >> >> * * *

> >> >>

> >> >> If you are interested in Advaitism (non-duality), I

recommend reading

> >> >> the

> >> >> works of Adi Shankara. He is considered a great teacher of

Advaitism

> >> >> and

> >> >> an

> >> >> incarnation of Lord Shiva Himself. In fact, a scripture

mentions Shiva

> >> >> telling Parvati that he will be born in Kali Yuga as Adi

Shankara to

> >> >> revive

> >> >> Advaitism and to refine the teachings of Buddha.

> >> >>

> >> >> * * *

> >> >>

> >> >> I personally consider " Yoga Vaasishtham " to be the highest

treatise on

> >> >> Advaitism. I have read many authors, but none matches the

brilliance

> >> >> of

> >> >> Vasishtha. After all, he is a maharshi and one of the

saptarshis and

> >> >> it

> >> >> does

> >> >> show.

> >> >>

> >> >> Maharshi Vasishtha taught Lord Rama (an incarnation of Lord

Vishnu)

> >> >> about

> >> >> self-knowledge in great detail, in the presence of many gods

and

> >> >> rishis

> >> >> including Maharshi Vishwamitra. These teachings were later

taught by

> >> >> Maharshi Vaalmiki (author of Ramayana) to Maharshi

Bharadwaja. Yoga

> >> >> Vaasishtham is thus a detailed account of Maharshi

Vasishtha's

> >> >> teachings

> >> >> captured by Maharshi Vaalmiki.

> >> >>

> >> >> The commentary by Swami Venkatesananda is quite an inspired

one and I

> >> >> very

> >> >> very strongly recommend it to everyone deeply interested in

the

> >> >> highest

> >> >> Hindu Advaitic philosophy. You can find it on amazon.com.

> >> >>

> >> >> * * *

> >> >>

> >> >> In " Yoga Vaasishtham " mentioned above, there is a beautiful

narrative

> >> >> where

> >> >> Maharshi Vasishtha describes to Lord Rama his meeting with

Lord Shiva.

> >> >> Lord

> >> >> Shiva teaches Vasishtha how to worship Him. He says, " there

are many

> >> >> ways

> >> >> to

> >> >> worship me that are used by many foolish people who desire

various

> >> >> things.

> >> >> They may even get various things worshipping me in those ways

> >> >> prescribed

> >> >> in

> >> >> some scriptures. But those are inferior methods of worship.

Let me

> >> >> tell

> >> >> you

> >> >> the highest worship that is most dear to me. It is how a

self-realized

> >> >> person worships me. " He then describes the method so

beautifully.

> >> >>

> >> >> It is an absolutely beautiful account. I can say that Shiva's

> >> >> teachings

> >> >> to

> >> >> Vasishtha on the best way to worship Him are the essence of

Vedas, the

> >> >> essence of BhagavadGeetha and the essence of the highest

Hindu

> >> >> philosophy.

> >> >> One interested in self-realization and moksha must read

Shiva's

> >> >> teachings

> >> >> and keep them at the back of their mind always.

> >> >>

> >> >> I don't mean to be disrespectful to various aagamas and

rituals

> >> >> prescribed

> >> >> in various scriptures. They all serve a purpose. But, if one

views

> >> >> moksha

> >> >> (complete self-realization and the liberation that comes

with it) as

> >> >> the

> >> >> highest goal, one cannot ignore the worship recommended by

Shiva

> >> >> Himself

> >> >> to

> >> >> Vasishtha.

> >> >>

> >> >> * * *

> >> >>

> >> >> Hinduism is indeed a " collection of philosophies " . However,

that may

> >> >> be a

> >> >> misleading statement. It may suggest some inherent self-

contradiction.

> >> >> That

> >> >> would be unfair.

> >> >>

> >> >> Though different ripples of an ocean look different, the

underlying

> >> >> ocean

> >> >> is

> >> >> the same. Similarly, the teachings of rishis form a single

coherent

> >> >> philosophy (ocean) that appears as many philosophies

(ripples) on the

> >> >> surface.

> >> >>

> >> >> After all, Rigveda says " ekam sat vipraa bahudhaa vadanti " ,

which

> >> >> means

> >> >> " Truth is One, but the learned call differently " . Though

Hinduism had

> >> >> no

> >> >> " no

> >> >> single founder " or ANY founder for that matter, all rishis

tapped the

> >> >> same

> >> >> " Single Source of Knowledge " (the Self, known variously as

Brahman,

> >> >> Shiva,

> >> >> Narayana, Krishna, Allah, Buddha etc) and hence there is a

consistency

> >> >> in

> >> >> their understanding.

> >> >>

> >> >> Unfortunately, not everyone can dive deep into the ocean of

> >> >> self-knowledge.

> >> >> Some are more comfortable floating on the surface (which is

fun too).

> >> >> The

> >> >> teachings of rishis have something for everyone. This gives

the

> >> >> appearance

> >> >> that rishis taught different contradicting philosophies. In

fact, they

> >> >> didn't.

> >> >>

> >> >> * * *

> >> >>

> >> >> Like the gentleman below mentioned, there are three main

views

> >> >> regarding

> >> >> the

> >> >> relationship between individual soul and the supreme soul.

However,

> >> >> instead

> >> >> of viewing them as competing theories, one can also view

them as steps

> >> >> in

> >> >> the same path. I want to share with all an *analogy* given

by my

> >> >> spiritual

> >> >> master Dr Manish Pandit:

> >> >>

> >> >> Imagine God to be a bright star in the sky. When you see

from a

> >> >> distance,

> >> >> star seems tiny and you conclude that there is only one God.

If you

> >> >> start

> >> >> moving towards God, you realize as you get closer that the

star is in

> >> >> reality a huge diamond with 330 million faces. Each face is

several

> >> >> miles

> >> >> long and wide and has various attributes (gunas). One face

may be red

> >> >> and

> >> >> hot and another may be blue and cold etc. So, as you get

closer to the

> >> >> diamond, you have to pick one face to get close to.

> >> >>

> >> >> Now, when you get too close to a face, the whole world will

seem to

> >> >> have

> >> >> the

> >> >> attributes of that face. For example, if you get too close

to a face

> >> >> that

> >> >> is

> >> >> cold and blue, then the whole world will feel cold and blue

to you. In

> >> >> other

> >> >> words, the God you are getting close to is the Supreme god

of the

> >> >> world

> >> >> and

> >> >> fills the entire world as you experience it. You think that

the whole

> >> >> world

> >> >> is filled with his energy. One who gets close to a blue face

sees the

> >> >> whole

> >> >> world as blue. One who gets close to a yellow face sees the

whole

> >> >> world

> >> >> as

> >> >> yellow. Similarly, a worshipper of Shiva may get close to

Him and see

> >> >> Shiva

> >> >> in all deities and all beings. A worshipper of Narayana may

get close

> >> >> to

> >> >> Him

> >> >> and see Narayana in all beings.

> >> >>

> >> >> No wonder one scripture says that Brahma, Vishnu, Shiva etc

all gods

> >> >> came

> >> >> from Narayana, while another scripture says the same about

> >> >> Mahaganapathi,

> >> >> while another scripture says the same thing about Shiva; and

so on.

> >> >>

> >> >> Reaching close to the deity is the ultimate goal in sadhana

for one

> >> >> adhering

> >> >> to Dwaita siddhanta (duality). For them, getting close to

ishta

> >> >> devata,

> >> >> securing a place near the feet and seeing the entire world as

> >> >> emanating

> >> >> from

> >> >> that deity is the highest goal. All gods and entire creation

are

> >> >> extensions

> >> >> of that deity.

> >> >>

> >> >> For some, there is a next stage: As you get closer and

closer to the

> >> >> face

> >> >> you picked, you finally merge with it! This is the ultimate

goal in

> >> >> sadhana

> >> >> for one adhering to Visishtaadwaita. You create a vaccum

within

> >> >> yourself

> >> >> by

> >> >> completing killing ego-consciousness and the deity in

question fills

> >> >> the

> >> >> vacuum.

> >> >>

> >> >> To Advaitis, this communion with a Saguna ( " with

attributes " ) form of

> >> >> God

> >> >> is

> >> >> not the final goal. The final goal is to break through the

face and

> >> >> jump

> >> >> into the inside of the diamond. As you break through any

face of the

> >> >> diamond

> >> >> and jump into the interior of the diamond, you no longer

perceive the

> >> >> faces

> >> >> of the diamond or the world outside. There are no longer any

objects

> >> >> or

> >> >> attributes. There is no I-ness or It-ness or experience. The

> >> >> experiencer,

> >> >> experienced and experience all merge into one. The same

thing happens

> >> >> irrespective of from which face the person jumped into the

interior of

> >> >> the

> >> >> diamond. Whether one enters a nirvikalpa samadhi through

oneness with

> >> >> Narayana or through oneness with Sadashiva or through

oneness with

> >> >> Mahaganapathi, the state reached is identical. The path only

is

> >> >> different.

> >> >>

> >> >> Some people can jump into the interior of this diamond

without first

> >> >> experiencing oneness with a face. Ramakrishna Paramahamsa's

Adwaitic

> >> >> guru

> >> >> Totapuri did not believe in any form and worshipped only the

Formless

> >> >> Reality. He would directly jump into the interior of the

diamond in

> >> >> this

> >> >> analogy. However, his disciple Ramakrishna Paramahamsa chose

to first

> >> >> reach

> >> >> oneness with Mother Kaali and then reach the interior of the

diamond

> >> >> by

> >> >> jumping from the face of the diamond representing Kaali.

Both are

> >> >> valid

> >> >> paths.

> >> >>

> >> >> * * *

> >> >>

> >> >> I have written too much tonight. Let me end here now.

> >> >>

> >> >> Best regards,

> >> >> Narasimha

> >> >> ----------------------------

---

> >> >> Homam manual and audio: http://www.VedicAstrologer.org/homam

> >> >> Free Jyotish lessons (MP3):

http://vedicastro.home.comcast.net

> >> >> Free Jyotish software (Windows):

http://www.VedicAstrologer.org

> >> >> Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website:

http://www.SriJagannath.org

> >> >> ----------------------------

---

>

[Guest guest]

Dear Kris,

 

The Female element represents the Energy (Shakti). The desires, actions and

knowledge of each being are caused by the movement of life force within that

being, which is personified as a Female deity. If there is no energy, there

is no movement of life force and there is nothing to desire or despise,

nothing to do or avoid and nothing to know or ignore. We just have the

singular non-duality and there is no field of duality then. It is the Shakti

that gives birth (Mother!) to all desires, actions and knowledge and the

field of apparent duality in which all desires, actions and knowledge

operate.

 

* * *

 

 

Shiva is essentially nirguna Brahman, while Shakti is the energy that causes

a movement in Brahman and gives birth to a field of duality.

 

While Brahman (nondual reality) is ONE and only one, the field of duality

has a lot of variety. The field of duality (also known as " maya " or

" delusion " ) has scope for different types of desire, action and knowledge.

The energies that cause different desires, different actions and different

aspects of knowledge is personified as different female deities.

 

You can also trace all those energies to the primordial energy that is the

root of all energies in Brahman. However, at that stage, we are almost

beyond names, gunas and depictions.

 

* * *

 

Even within each person, there are different Energies that cause different

desires, actions and knowledge. But there is one root energy that causes a

distinct identity in that person. All other energies stem from that energy.

 

It is that root energy that creates the entire field of duality in which

THAT person operates. This energy is the cause of the self-awareness or

ego-consciousness in that person. This energy (that causes

ego-consciousness) is also called " Kundalini shakti " . Instead of having no

concept of self and no objectification and being immersed in the non-dual

Brahman, due to this shakti, one views a part of Brahman as " self " with

certain attributes, certain vasanas (mental conditioning) etc. This energy

can either " bind " one to a limited concept of self or " liberate " one with an

infinite concept of self. In most people, it is the former.

 

One can view this shakti as a microcosmic representation of the Divine

Mother within oneself.

 

Best regards,

Narasimha

-------------------------------

Homam manual and audio: http://www.VedicAstrologer.org/homam

Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro.home.comcast.net

Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAstrologer.org

Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagannath.org

-------------------------------

 

-

" shrivajra " <shrivajra

<sivacharya >

Monday, July 09, 2007 3:48 PM

[sivacharya] Re: On Adwaitism, Shiva's Worship and Different Paths

 

> Dear Narasimha,

>> In both the paths, one overcomes the simple and finite concept of I-ness

>> with something more infinite.

>

> Well said.

>

> May I ask another question?

>

> Whilst it seems that Shiva is a given constant his

> partner is depicted in different ways. I have found

> descriptions and images of Shiva in the company of

> Shakti, Parvati and Kali. What is the significance of

> the female in these various depictions?

>

> Regards

> Kris

[Guest guest]

, " Narasimha P.V.R. Rao " <pvr

The

> path of exclusion keeps on eliminating everything in this manifested

world

> appearance as " this is not Self " , in order to realize what IS Self.

After

> eliminating everything, what is left is the Self/Brahman. This path

> predominantly exercises Pingala/Surya nadi (solar channel of energy

flow).

>

Dear Narasimhaji:

Profound apologies for interrupting, can you kindly provide pointers

to where this " path of exclusion " etc are elucidated (sounds

suspiciously similar to Nagarjuna's principle of Negation)? Are they

in the text Yoga Vasistham that you mentioned?

Many Thanks for guiding this ignoramus,

Best,

../Dinesh