Guest guest Posted November 12, 2008 Report Share Posted November 12, 2008 Dear Aumji, Am trying to address your question....... * Is it possible that both are simultaneously ultimate truths ? or both are complimentary to each other for another final Truth ? TRUTH, as we all know is beyond DESCRIPTION.....it is a REALIZATION, and it is ONE. However, from individual to individual The PERSPECTIVE differs, The FOUNDATION differs, The ANTICIPATION (deep seated in the consciousness) differs.........thus, the Explanation provided vary depending upon that individual soul's Physical Status on the earthly plane (which is always under the influence of the Laws of Causation). So......I hope :-) ALL are Same (Dvaita, Vishishtadvaita & Advaita...nicely exemplified by Thimmappaji). The Point is: Is it not possible to enjoy Blissful unification with ALL - The Lord's Body or Mind or Soul??? To let oneself 'loose' will be a nice way to allow that that is destined to be the individual's PATH. Also, periodic transitions through any of these 'identifications'' can be equally 'fulfilling'. let the mind flow through contemplation and devotion until its weariness makes it non-existance coz there lies the answer except that noone is left to Acknowledge it........... Pranams _/\_, Anupam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 12, 2008 Report Share Posted November 12, 2008 Can a person working on Dvait get Moksha ? what about Bhaktas who never go beyond dvaitas, do they get real Moksha ? jaya Thanks aumji but why did you call me mother? i am younger to you perhaps Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 12, 2008 Report Share Posted November 12, 2008 , Anupam Shil <anupamshil wrote: > let the mind flow > through contemplation and devotion > until its weariness > makes it non-existance > coz there lies the answer > except that noone is left > to Acknowledge it........... > > Pranams _/\_, > Anupam > Dear anupam, thanks for yr reply and your beautiful couplet... yr poetry always gives me positive vibs. Please tell me If mind is solely responsible for duality ? Can we say that we go beyond duality if we transcend mind ?? Love always Aummm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 12, 2008 Report Share Posted November 12, 2008 Pranam dear Aumji. " Identification " of the Consciousness with SOMETHING is soley responsible for ANYTHING....I feel. Also, I feel that when we are talking of Dvaita vs Advaita.....we are not merely talking about a Devoute Mind that is occupied with an influx of devotional thoughts versus a Meditative Mind that has quitened through a Practice of No Thinking. Rather we are trying to understand and compare two theories that is claimed to be leading to the FINAL REALIZATION (end of the Path)....where neither there is MIND nor EGO, no matter whichever path has been choosen. Rest is left for Self-contemplation.................... Regards & Best Wishes, Anupam _ Dear anupam, thanks for yr reply and your beautiful couplet... yr poetry always gives me positive vibs. Please tell me If mind is solely responsible for duality ? Can we say that we go beyond duality if we transcend mind ?? Love always Aummm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 12, 2008 Report Share Posted November 12, 2008 Hari Om1 To me, dwaitic state is equally good for the simple reason that you retain your individual consciousness to enjoy the bliss that comes to you as the grace of God. In the advaitic state, you become part of the divinity, as you reach a point of no return in Saadhana. Advaitic state is achieved when the individual consciousness and awareness are obliterated. In any case, during Pralaya, it is said that God withdraws unto Himself all the cosmic energy and perforce we remain merged with the Primodial Energy, which is God. That which befalls to the Universe during Pralaya is nothing but advaita. ulaganthan p ________________________________ Anupam Shil <anupamshil SADHNA Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 12, 2008 Report Share Posted November 12, 2008 , ulaganathan p <apunathan wrote: If adviata be the Ultimate truth then Krishna Kali Shiva all become FALSE. Can hindus accept that their dear gods and demi gods are all false ? will hinduism not fall like a castle of cards ? vishnu Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 12, 2008 Report Share Posted November 12, 2008 , aumji <no_reply wrote: > So shantnu do you still think Dvaita philosophy is one step below > Advaita ?? > > Is it possible that both are simultaneously ultimate truths ? or > both are complimentary to each other for another final Truth ? Aumji, thinking of higher/lower is a way of the mind,which divides everything into dualities - good/bad, light/dark, Adwait/Dwait. By arguing about which is higher, we have fallen intro trap of mind! The bud becomes a rose- but the rose is not " higher " than the bud, but the final expression of the bud. Similarly, we as individual Jeevas, or souls, cannot think of Adwait. The best we can do is offer all our Love to the Divine within us. Once we can do that, then like a bud, we can also flower into our real selves. So which state is higher? Is the bud infereior ro thes rose? Is the seed inferior to the tree? The tree & the seed are equal, just the tree is the full expression of the seed. This debate of Adwait/Dwait was started by medievel scholars like Shankar, Ramanajun etc. There was no such doubt in ancient Vedic times. But in Shankars times, people had become more logical- they wanted evreything cut & dried. A or B, Adwait or dwait. The peoples conciousness had fallen to the mental plane, & they sought answers there. But the answers of the mental plane will always have inherent contradictions, as the mind is an intrument of ignorance, nor wisdom. Wisdom is had by going beyond the mind. This whole argument of Adwait/ Dwait is a created one, so the marketing agents of different schools can sell their brand of enlightenment. So is the Truth Adwait or Dwait? Is God formless, or with form? Is God Male or Female? The answer to all these questions is both, & still more which we cannot understand. By choosing A over B, we are still stuck in the minds domain, which is the domain of ignorance. KalyugVishu wrote: >If adviata be the Ultimate truth then Krishna Kali Shiva all become >FALSE. >Can hindus accept that their dear gods and demi gods are all false ? >will hinduism not fall like a castle of cards ? I think if Hinduism has survived for so long, it might survive a few more years. with love Shantnu Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 12, 2008 Report Share Posted November 12, 2008 , kalyugivishnu5 <no_reply wrote: > > , ulaganathan p <apunathan@> wrote: > > If adviata be the Ultimate truth then Krishna Kali Shiva all become > FALSE. > > Can hindus accept that their dear gods and demi gods are all false ? > will hinduism not fall like a castle of cards ? > > vishnu > You have a very Strong point !!!! And what is your own reply dear Vishnu Aummm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 12, 2008 Report Share Posted November 12, 2008 HARE RAM , HARE KRISHAN > > Jitinder : hence till one understand that duality is false than it > means He is under the impression that ultimate truth is also false > > => Dear Jitinder are you sure Duality is False??? False may be a > relative term here. My understanding is that nothing is false in > this universe.... right from god to a peck of dust all are > manifestations of the lord... so there cant be something true or > false... correct me if i am wrong. > THANKS SIR JI In my opinion as per Tantra Philosophy FALSE IS AVIDHAYA False is a kind of TRUTH OR A PILLER OF TRUTH , HENCE There is existance of false I AM SORRY , I DO NOT KNOW BUT YOU MADE ME CLEAR A LOT thanks sir ji HARE RAM ,HARE RAM ,RAM RAM ,HARE HARE , HARE KRISHAN , HARE KRISHAN , KRISHAN KRISHAN , HARE HARE Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 12, 2008 Report Share Posted November 12, 2008 , shanracer <no_reply wrote: > > The bud becomes a rose- but the rose is not " higher " than the bud, but > the final expression of the bud. > > Shanracer, this portion was really beautiful.. the bud and flower. As i asked earlier ( & no one replied)... if we transcend mind do we start venturing into the world of Advaita... or there is more to it love always Aummm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 12, 2008 Report Share Posted November 12, 2008 There are five layers (koshas)of consciousness like annamaya kosha, pranamaya kosha, manomaya kosha, vignanamaya kosha, anandamaya kosha before one can realise the atman within or merge with the supreme consciousness or attain the advaitic state. Crossing the mind or the manomaya kosha alone will not give us the passport to the advaitic state. It is said further said that in sadhana, beyond a point for the sadhak to realise the Atman, one needs the grace of God or Guru. You need the kripa of God Himself to break the barrier that separates Him from the sadhak. Hari Om Tat Sat ulaganathan p  ________________________________ aumji <no_reply > Wednesday, 12 November, 2008 4:07:51 PM Re: Dvait or Advaita ??? @ s.com, shanracer <no_reply@.. .> wrote: > > The bud becomes a rose- but the rose is not " higher " than the bud, but > the final expression of the bud. > > Shanracer, this portion was really beautiful.. the bud and flower. As i asked earlier ( & no one replied)... if we transcend mind do we start venturing into the world of Advaita... or there is more to it love always Aummm Add more friends to your messenger and enjoy! Go to http://messenger./invite/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 12, 2008 Report Share Posted November 12, 2008 , aumji <no_reply wrote: > As i asked earlier ( & no one replied)... if we transcend mind do we > start venturing into the world of Advaita... or there is more to it > Yes Aumji, we can say that real Adwait starts beyond the mind. Till the mind, there is always duality. There is always you & me. So god will always be someone separate, no matter how many logics you use to try to prove otherwise. But once you go beyond the mind, there is no I, no you. So how can there be duality then? So aumji, you answered you own question. Dwait is till the mind, Adwait beyond the mind. love Shantnu Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 12, 2008 Report Share Posted November 12, 2008 , shanracer <no_reply wrote: >> Yes Aumji, we can say that real Adwait starts beyond the mind. Till > the mind, there is always duality. There is always you & me. So god > will always be someone separate, no matter how many logics you use to > try to prove otherwise. The duality is caused by the Mind or by Ego... beyond mind is ego and chitta ?? love aum Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 12, 2008 Report Share Posted November 12, 2008 , aumji <no_reply wrote: > The duality is caused by the Mind or by Ego... beyond mind is ego >and chitta ?? Aumji, now we are going into deep territory in which I have no personal experience.....so my answers may just be guesses...... Duality is caused by the mind, as it is the job of the mind to divide everything into 1 opposing camps. The Pure Ego knows no duality, it only knows " I Am " , or later on just " Am " . Reaching the Pure Ego, one loses the sense of duality, but has not reached the final stage either, as one has not contacted the Pure Spirit. This is sort of a middle stage, & many religons take it to be final(Jainism, & some say Buddhism). It could be called Adwait, if one takes Adwait in the sense of " No duality " . People in this stage think they are the final reality(ie indivudial ego is everything, as in Jains, & how people normally interpret Sankhya), or they say there is no higher reality, just voidness(Buddhism). What is beyond this Pure Ego could be called the real Adwait. But what it is, no one knows. In India, there were 2 ways it was described- Emptyness, nothingness by Buddha, & Everything-ness by the Vedic Rishis. In a way, both are saying the same thing, except Hindus look at the positive side, while buddhists at the negative side. love Shantnu Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 12, 2008 Report Share Posted November 12, 2008 Dear Aumji, I just saw the mails to-day, it is a wonderful experience going through the scintillating exposition on dwaitadwaita by our members. You appeared in a hurry to get a reply from us on transcending mind leading to state of advaita. Equally hurried reply is ' Yes ' ! Yet, let me hasten to add that, the reply appears to put mind in an enemy role. After all, mind could be a friend too, let us not be too harsh on it! What is the mind that could be a friend? An Upanishadic statement puts it this way: Manayeva manushyaanaam karanam bandha mokshayo / Bhandhaya vishyaasanghe mokshai nirvishayam manah // Mind is the cause for both bondage and liberation in humans. Attachments(of mind) to the objects of the senses is bondage, absence of such objects(in the mind) is freedom. Freeing the mind from its attachments to the external world dished out by the senses alone will align the mind to that One ( advaita ) and from then onwards it is that One that chariots the mind to remain forever in One while ( and in spite of ) engaging with the many ( dvaita ) of the world! Regards, M.S.Thimmappa. , aumji <no_reply wrote: > As i asked earlier ( & no one replied)... if we transcend mind do we > start venturing into the world of Advaita... or there is more to it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 12, 2008 Report Share Posted November 12, 2008 I'd like to make a small point if I may - my 2C. I feel, that we must learn to stop thinking of beliefs of any kind - dwaith, adwaith, Krishna, Kali, Jnana, Bhakti as foundations of the universe or the 'ultimate reality'. Each of these beliefs represent a MEANS - a Method to achieve Moksha. A Krishna Bhakt prays to Krishna to illumine him/her ... it is a process A Siva Bhakt prays to siva, recites the Rudram etc ... it is a process An Advaitin tells him/herself that I am not the body, I am not the mind etc ... still a process A muslim does the namaz and lives a life style ... also a process Every system of beliefs represents a frame of mind and a set of activities ... there is no point arguing about the superiority of one versus the other. What works for one, is not relevant to another. As for the nature of the ultimate reality, one should believe in whatever process one is able to follow. Why else would that Supreme Advaithin Adi Shankara compose hymns to every diety? A thought I'd share here is that Hankering after the nature of God is in itself a desire, and a sign of ego:). To answer your question, As long as the human race exists, the Hindu systems of beliefs (read processes) are relevant, and there will be people who will follow them. Rgds , aumji <no_reply wrote: > > You have a very Strong point !!!! > > And what is your own reply dear Vishnu > > Aummm > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 13, 2008 Report Share Posted November 13, 2008 OMNAMONARAYANAYA Kaliyugavishnuji , I posted a part of my blog with title TIME GOD and MOKSHA . I explained how Krishna incarnation and other God like figures describe smaller circles in KALACHAKRA,. Adwita is the ONLY TRUTH ijswamy ~SWAMY http://gjnanaswarup.spaces.live.com/blog/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 14, 2008 Report Share Posted November 14, 2008 , " M.S.Thimmappa. " <thimmappams wrote: > Yet, let me hasten to add that, the reply appears to put mind in an > enemy role. // Mind is the cause for both > bondage and liberation in humans. Attachments(of mind) to the objects Thanks Dr Thimmappaji, Yes most of the people normally take mind as a distractor but as you pointed out correctly, it is the mind which helps us realise the truth (perhaps by becoming super Mind). The discussion was not to contradict but to re-affirm our belief that => No philosophy is superior to other philosophies or there is no single idea which is the whole truth => One has to start from Dvaita and reach Advait, but still Moksha is possible in either of the philsophies. => Mind is important tool in Sadhna and i bow to all for confirming these points and clearing many doubts of 100s of members who silent read the discussion and benefitted. Love always Aum Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 14, 2008 Report Share Posted November 14, 2008 HARE RAM , HARE KRISHAN > The duality is caused by the Mind or by Ego... beyond mind is ego and > chitta ?? THANKS FOR BEAUTIFULL QUESTION SIR JI When Consciousness of the Ego reaches in Duality than a person put himself into danger HARE RAM, HARE RAM ,RAM RAM ,HARE HARE , HARE KRISHAN , HARE KRISHAN , KRISHAN KRISHAN , HARE HARE Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 14, 2008 Report Share Posted November 14, 2008 HARE RAM, HARE KRISHAN > Can a person working on Dvait get Moksha ? > > what about Bhaktas who never go beyond dvaitas, do they get real > Moksha ? > THANKS MADEM FOR YOUR BEATIFULL QUESTIONS AUM Sir Ji replied beautifull , that what a person can think about Moksha , He would get it and it is not necessary that A BHAKTA will always remain in dvaitas HARE RAM , HARE RAM , RAM RAM, HARE HARE , HARE KRISHAN , HARE KRISHAN , KRISHAN KRISHAN , HARE HARE Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 14, 2008 Report Share Posted November 14, 2008 > Namaste baba. Thank you but that wisdom is not my own ps- Really I never recieved any of your mail. Many times I mailed you but either recieved a failure notice or no reply.And I didnt and still dont know any way to contact you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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