Dvait or Advaita ???

November 10, 2008

Dear co-travellers,

One of my friends asked a beautiful question. He asked " If

Advaita is ultimate Truth, then is Dvaita false ? because both

contradicting theories cant be truth. "

So before replying him, I thought it is better to take different

views of learned sadhakas and our group is the best place for this.

Please enlighten me with your views on Dvaita v/s Advaita. which

one is the truth or what is the relation between both the philosophies.

with love

Aummm

November 10, 2008

>

> One of my friends asked a beautiful question. He asked " If

> Advaita is ultimate Truth, then is Dvaita false ? because both

> contradicting theories cant be truth. "

>

> Namaste baba . Long time. And why you not seem to be coming back to

YA and there is never any news of you?

I dont know and I dont have any wisdom but while hearing a katha I

heard that the supreme soul had a desire just as a person wants to see

his reflection in mirror, himself he wanted to see himself and enjoy it

so thats where he thought of creating. The soul being his own

manifestation

November 10, 2008

This is a trap many people fall into. We cannot hope to define the

ultimate reality the same way for everyone. Ultimately, every

philosophy - Dwaitha, Adwaitha, Shunya etc represents a process for

Saadhana.

At the foot of the Himalayas we say the pinnacle is 8000m away. After

climbing for a day, the pinnacle is 4000m away. That is Dwaitha &

Adwaitha. Both are true - in the sense that both represent a route

that will lead you to realization. Both Dwaitha and Adwaitha fail to

describe the splendour and glory of God.

They can only hint at it. The ultimate reality is something to be

experienced, the entire universe of words will fall short of the

experience. in that sense both are incomplete.

Saints however say that ultimately there is only one supreme entity

in the universe. Our sense of seperateness from that entity is Maya.

Rgds

November 10, 2008

Respected Satish Vijayan ji and i_free_spirit ji,

Who are you people...so true statements and thoughts you have given. I bow

before both of you in respect and out of true love that is presently emanating

from my heart.

With Regards,

Prabhat

November 11, 2008

, " i_free_spirit " <i_free_spirit

wrote:

>

> I dont know and I dont have any wisdom but while hearing a katha I

> heard that the supreme soul had a desire just as a person wants to

see

> his reflection in mirror, himself he wanted to see himself and enjoy

it

> so thats where he thought of creating. The soul being his own

> manifestation

>

Thanks Aradhana, this was beautiful and simple reply ( & u say u dont

have wisdom...LOL)

Aummmm

PS: I wrote u an email, but no reply from you

November 11, 2008

, satishvijayan <no_reply wrote:

>

> This is a trap many people fall into. We cannot hope to define the

> ultimate reality the same way for everyone. Ultimately, every

> philosophy - Dwaitha, Adwaitha, Shunya etc represents a process for

> Saadhana.

>

Thanks satish ji, for this wise reply. That precisely is the

question if Advait is ultimate Truth and dvaita falls short by one

step to this reality ??

Some time ago, vaishnavites in this group rebuked me a lot for

saying Advaita is the ultimate truth. They are of the view that

Dvaita is final truth ... there is god and there is Jiva and both

are separate. Dvaita seems to cover the whole lot of religions

where this duality exists.

Can there be another deeper explanation, joining both the

philosophies as one ultimate Truth ?

with regards

Aummmm

November 11, 2008

Hari Om!

I think both of them are true. As long as you retain the consciousness ofÂ your

ownÂ self withinÂ and the Brahman remain in some kind of separation, dwaitism

is real and most of the religions are dwaitic. Once a total merger or a complete

samadhi takes place, it is advaitic. Where do you stand in the ladder of your

sadhana decides whether you are dwaitic or advaitic. Take the example of a river

and its running in stream before its confluence with the ocean. River retains

its identity although in so many ways it is like the ocean, until it merges with

the ocean.

It is wrong to presum that dwaitism is inferior to the advitic state. For us, to

enjoy the bliss of communion with God, we need to have a shred of our own

consciousness intact. If there is total merger and there is no distiction

between the atman and paramatman, there is no awareness of the bliss. We, human

beings are blessed to be between the animals which are devoid of any awareness

and theÂ state of complete divinityÂ which is the reservoir of bliss and

joyfulness. We alone are blessed with the faculties to be aware of the bliss

that the paramatma offers us, out of his grace and loving kindness. However, as

you are frequently drawn to the divine grace and get chocked in it, at some

point you are totally merged with it and nirvikalpa samathi sets it. That is the

stage when the veil of separation breaks and the individual self merges with the

Self.

Hari Om Tat

ulaganthan p

________________________________

aumji <no_reply >

Some time ago, vaishnavites in this group rebuked me a lot for

saying Advaita is the ultimate truth. They are of the view that

Dvaita is final truth ... there is god and there is Jiva and both

November 11, 2008

HARE RAM , HARE KRISHAN

> One of my friends asked a beautiful question. He asked " If

> Advaita is ultimate Truth, then is Dvaita false ? because both

> contradicting theories cant be truth. "

>

THANKS TO ALL THE SADHAKAS , WHOMEVER HAS REPLIED FOR THIS QUESTION

Thanks AUM Baba Sir Ji for wonderful question

Ultimate truth is the ultimate beacuse of Duality and

individuality . OTHERWISE THERE IS NO EXISTANCE OF ULTIMATE

TRUTH .hence till one understand that duality is false than it means

He is under the impression that ultimate truth is also false .There

is no existance of the word ULTIMATE in the dictionery of the God

Lord Sri Krishan or the whole dictionery is full of the same word

ULTIMATE .........................

when Lord Sri Krishan himself said that He exists in so many forms

and all are the Lord Sri Krishan . if i perceive that all forms of

Lord Sri Krishan are individual than it means i am fool or i am

lying . the perception of all the forms of Lord Sri Krishan as

ultimate truth could bring us closer to the ultimate truth.

Take the example of Maya .

YEDI KOI MAYA KO APNE ULTIMATE TRUTH SE JEET KAR DIKHA DE TO MAIN

MAAN JAAOON KI MAYA PARMATAMA SE ALAG HAIN AUR DUAL HAIN

HARE RAM , HARE RAM ,RAM RAM ,HARE HARE , HARE KRISHAN , HARE

KRISHAN , KRISHAN KRISHAN , HARE HARE

November 11, 2008

Dear Aumji,

Dvaita says God and beings are separate, advaita says both are one and

vishishtadvaita says beings are an aspect( a part and parcel )of God (

not the whole of or one with God ).

Dvaita and Advaita both are true, it depends on the level of

consciousness with which we are perceiving and experiencing the world

in a given time. In fact knowledge itself is a structure in

consciousness: at a particular level of consciousness world/life

appears in a particular way and at a different level of consciousness,

the same world/life appears in a different way!

I can not find a better narration on relationship between God and

Beings/Human beings than the one found in Great Hanuman's statement (

which I think I had mentioned here once on a different context ), the

statement was made when the Lord Rama asks him who are you:

Deha bhaavena dasosmi/from the body point of view I am your servant,

this is dvaita.

Jiva bhaavena tvadamshakah/from the mind point of you I am a part of

you, this is vishshtadvaita.

Aatma bhaavena tvamevaham/ from the soul point of view I am You, this

is advaita.

So, Sir, all are true, they all are different aspect of the same reality.

Regards,

M.S.Thimmappa.

, aumji <no_reply wrote:

>

> Dear co-travellers,

>

> One of my friends asked a beautiful question. He asked " If

> Advaita is ultimate Truth, then is Dvaita false ? because both

> contradicting theories cant be truth. "

>

November 11, 2008

Respected Members/Sadhaks,

Jai Gurudev...

Sadar Charan Sparsh.

With the little knowledge that I have, there is a very thin line between Dvaita

(dual) and Advaita (non-dual) aspect of the Supreme Soul. He exists in both

aspects simultaneously (His omnipotent nature). It is very difficult to realize

this aspect of Him from our mind which has got limited capabilities. But He does

possess the property of existing in both forms and that at the same moment. I

see His dvait form in each and every animate as well as inanimate object. I see

His advait form when I try to merge myself in the Universe, i.e. try lose the

conciousness of my mind, body and spirit. To sum up in one sentence, HE IS

EVERYTHING AND EVERYTHING IS HE.

With Regards,

Prabhat

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November 11, 2008

, aumji <no_reply wrote:

> One of my friends asked a beautiful question. He asked " If

> Advaita is ultimate Truth, then is Dvaita false ? because both

> contradicting theories cant be truth. "

Aumji, Adwait can be thought of as the final step in a long road. Its

like going from ground to first floor. Our final destination is the

first floor, but one cant go there ignoring all the middle steps.

So while the middle steps are not the final destination, neither can

we reach the final destination without going through them.

Regards your question, as many learned Sadhaks have written, we cant

understand the final truth intellectually. But we can make

conjecutures, based on those wiser who have come before us.

From my understanding, the pure conciousnes, Chit, is always throwing

its energies outward. In meditation, these energies get turned inward.

Thats when our Pure ego(Aham), sees that the source of its existece it

not itself, but the Light of God. Thats when it realises God is

everything. It forgets everything, & thinks non-stop of God. This

happens even when Samadhi ends, & the person is in normal

conciousness. Over time, with practice, the person maybe working,

eating walking talking, but still in contact with the Universal. This

is Dwait.

When this stage becomes normal for the person(which is very rare- only

few gifted Saints like Kabir, Nanak, Ramakrishna could remain in it),

then after some time, which depends on many things including grace of

God, even the Pure ego, which till then had been seeing itself

separate from God, & enjoying Gods Light, slowly starts dissolving,

till nothing remains. This is Adwait.

Buddha was once asked " Master, when you are dead, where will you be? "

He replied " I will be no where " . His student was surprised, & said you

must be somewhere, heaven, hell, Nirvana somewhere. Buddha replied

" That which you think as Buddha never existed anyway, so will be

nowhere after death. That which I am, always has been, & will continue

to be. Buddha will be no where, but I will be everywhere. "

love

Shantnu

November 11, 2008

OM NAMO NARAYANAYA

Pranams to venerable Sadhaks

Aumji,Prabhatji, Jituji,Keshavji and all others

Dwita is today

Adwita is tomorrow. Today human imperfection/maya/sin/material body and mind

separate humans from becoming part of God

God is OMNIPRESENT He exists right in our souls and stays as a part of it. Our

souls are a part of His. But our imperfection gives us an illusion of our being

separate. This Dwita disappears tomorrow

Tomorrow we will join the COSMIC SOUL that is eternal and indivisible and so

tomorrow will be Adwita

More elaboration solicited

yours the beginner sadhak

ijswamy

~SWAMY

http://gjnanaswarup.spaces.live.com/blog/

November 11, 2008

aumji wrote:

> One of my friends asked a beautiful question. He asked " If

> Advaita is ultimate Truth, then is Dvaita false ? because both

> contradicting theories cant be truth. "

>

> So before replying him, I thought it is better to take different

> views of learned sadhakas and our group is the best place for this.

>

> Please enlighten me with your views on Dvaita v/s Advaita. which

> one is the truth or what is the relation between both the

philosophies.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++\

++++++++

Pranams Aumji, Everyone,

I read all the replies in this thread. Thimmappaji's and Shantnu ji's

replies were great, but that does not place others down. This question

is nice and the participation quite enthusiastic and precise.

I am writing on the basis of " one truth vs the other truth "

Swamy Vivekananda has this to say on 'truth'.

" truth is of many shades. There is a lower truth and a higher one and

a highest one. Man does not go from falsehood to truth. But from truth

to truth. From a lower truth to higher truth "

So the theses which we often encounter esp in the self realization route

find themselves somewhere in this gradient of truth. Once, I went to a

speech. The speaker told us " When you stand in front of the deity and

start praising Him, the dvaita bhava is there. Since here you say 'me

and God'. Once you are in love with God, and when the love deepens, you

want to serve Him and be part of His empire to merge with Him, you are

in a state of Vishishtdwaita. "

The speaker continued, " When this love deepens and you want to see Him

in you and when you sit in meditation, and close your eyes, suddenly you

feel only 'I' and the world becomes non existent for you. But still you

feel Him and you are different. Deeper into meditation, the 'I' loses

itself and 'no two' remain anymore. "

Advaita is , as told by everyone, the final level of existence possible.

Further, look at the Name Sankara gave--- Advaita- no two.It is a

negative term.

But dwaita is a positive term. Once a Iskcon brahmachari argued with me,

" See, Dwaita is a natural state. Advaita is a superimposition. So for

Advaita to exist dwaita must exist before. " I totally agreed on his

point but not on the essence. Adwaita is swimming counter current. It is

seeing one truth where there were two earlier.

I am still harping on this by knowledge only. But to explain or grasp it

we need 'wisdom'

Hare Krishna

Venkat

November 11, 2008

om namo bhagavathe vasudevaya

dear sir,

Very nice explanation about the dvita and advita.

There is no necesity to findwhich is good ,truth ofr false.All these

things shows the way to think about the god.To my small knowledge I feel

like this.Whatever the sidhantham we follow, the final is to reach the

god.

subramanian.p.s.(madurai)

, " M.S.Thimmappa. " <thimmappams

wrote:

>

> Dear Aumji,

>

> Dvaita says God and beings are separate, advaita says both are one and

> vishishtadvaita says beings are an aspect( a part and parcel )of God (

November 12, 2008

After reading the thoughtful and deep and some simple yet amazing

posts on Adviata, I really feel proud of my wise company here. All

may please accept my pranam and thanks.

To further understand the subject, allow me to bring out some points

raised by our sadhakas, which may need further clarification.

------------------

Shri Ulaganathan wrote - It is wrong to presume that dwaitism is

inferior to the advitic state

=>Thansk appu, I fully agree with you on this, but both advaitins

and dvaitins do not accept this and harp on their philosophy being

the supreme... Is there a meeting point where both can agree?

------------------

Jaya wrote : I think when we are in limited consciousness, Dvaita is

a Truth for us. When we awaken in God's consciousness Advaita

becomes truth.

=> OMG Jaya ji you amazed me with this simple yet very true

definition....Pranam to you O Mother !

-----------------------

Jitinder : hence till one understand that duality is false than it

means He is under the impression that ultimate truth is also false

=> Dear Jitinder are you sure Duality is False??? False may be a

relative term here. My understanding is that nothing is false in

this universe.... right from god to a peck of dust all are

manifestations of the lord... so there cant be something true or

false... correct me if i am wrong.

-------------------------

Thimmappa : Deha bhaavena dasosmi/from the body point of view I am

your servant,

this is dvaita.

Jiva bhaavena tvadamshakah/from the mind point of you I am a part of

you, this is vishshtadvaita.

Aatma bhaavena tvamevaham/ from the soul point of view I am You, this

is advaita

=> Thanks Dr. Thimmappa... i laughed a lot after reading your reply,

because to the Hare krishna people who questioned me on advait, i

wrote the same answer giving example of Shri Hanumanji. This can

be said as best answer for Dvaita v/s adviata.

---------------------=

Swamy : Adwita is tomorrow. Today human

imperfection/maya/sin/material body and mind

separate humans from becoming part of God

=> Thanks swamy ji, Are we not not already part of god ? despite our

sins and our imperfections ?

----------------

Shantanu: Aumji, Adwait can be thought of as the final step in a

long road. Its

like going from ground to first floor

So shantnu do you still think Dvaita philosophy is one step below

Advaita ??

Is it possible that both are simultaneously ultimate truths ? or

both are complimentary to each other for another final Truth ?

------

I do hope to get more wisdom on this from our learned sadhakas.. as

you are aware, i am not asking these questions to contradict anyone

but to bring out more truths out of sadhakas.

With my love and good wishes to all

Aummmmmmmm

November 12, 2008

Respected Shri Swami ji,

Thanks for sharing...

The whole concept of Dvaita/Advaida arises because of our mind which is in

itself dual. Since we most of the time " think " from our minds, it perceives the

Supreme Soul as dvaita. Mind has the property of moving in past and future. It

is never possible for a mind to move in present, this past and future creates

the dvaita bhava. Only Soul can be in present moment. Once we start

" thinking/perceiving " from our Soul, this dvaita bhava disappears instantly and

EVERYTHING BECOMES ONE/NON-DUAL/ADVAITA.

May all Souls rest in peace.