Importance of Argument in Spiritual Progress

[Guest guest]

Pranam

 

What is the importance of Arguments and contradictions in Spiritual

Progress of an individual with the group or to the group with an

individual?

 

Does God like to be questioned or he likes Monopoly on His decisions?

 

 

Please enlighten me.

 

 

Regards

 

 

badri

[Guest guest]

Humble Obeisances to all!

God likes to be questioned. Eligibility - Shrimad Adya Shankaracharya,

Mahaprabhu Vallabhacharya, Mahaprabhu Chaitanya, Draupadi, Meera, Tulsi Dasa,

Sur Dasa and above. Here I will cite example of Mahaprabhu Vallabhacharya. He

was on tour to south and reached one Bhagavan Vishnu Temple (Place I have

forgotton). It was late evining time and priests have just closed the doores

and werring climbing down the steps. Acharya requested them to open for just

half minute to have quick glimpse. They refused and went away. Acharya was much

disappointed at this and stood up in front of closed main gate and spoken in

loud voice " Bhagavan, when the north was captured by Buddhas and others, I was

the person to re-establish your worship driving everyone away, and now how dare

you to close doors for me? Because of weakened muscles I could not walk fast,

is it my fault?O.K. I would sit here and wait the sunrise! " Those were cold

season day and even in day time there was severe cold

waves because of sudden climatic changes. Except routine, he was nothing on his

body to protect from severe cold. No sooner he started shievering from cold, the

gates were opened and one Parshad of Bhagavan welcomed him humbly took inside.

In Garbhagriha, Bhagavan Himself was waiting for Acharya with warm clothings and

nice bed. He ate fruits, drank milk and slept in the Garbhagriha in front of

Bhagavan's idol. At morning when priests came to open door, they found it in

tact as usual but were surprised to see very divine bed (never seen before) and

Acharya watching at Bhagavan's face shining by the sun rays. We should strive to

get such highest level and authority though worship (Gyan, Karma and Bhakti Yoga

of Shreemad Bhagavad Gita). For others, God reserves His right and Will to

nourish and protect His bhaktas and keeps them happy as He wants. He knows

better how His devotees are to be brought up, more than bhaktas. Heartful

regards to all. = Keshav.

 

BHADRA RAO JANAGAM <bjanagam wrote:

Pranam

 

What is the importance of Arguments and contradictions in Spiritual

[Guest guest]

, " BHADRA RAO JANAGAM " <bjanagam

wrote:

> What is the importance of Arguments and contradictions in Spiritual

 

Dear Badri, it is an important question. When we see around, we

find this chaos going on all around. Specially the Abrahmic

religions force their dogmas on others by rejecting anything which

is not in their book.

 

Luckily we hindus dont have such problem. Hinduism does not force

any dogma...rather Sanatan Dharma presents all different ways to

reach god. So any hindu can reject Krishna and chose shiva, or

reject shiva and chose hanuman...or reject everything and accept

Advaita...we are free to chose our path as per our mental

evolutionary stage.

 

People may laugh at me, as i always give my own examples..but for

me my own experience is greater than any book or any dogma. Till i

came on this path, I loved arguing and contradicting others with my

strong logics. Years of sadhna have snatched that ability (?) from

me, and now I avoid arguements... i share....hence arguing was a

lower thing which after progress vanished.

 

so I can say arguementing or contradicting for the sake of

knowing more and getting some clarification is necessary tool in

sadhna. In our scriputres even disciples used to argue with guru to

get a point cleared.

 

But arguements and contradiction with a prejudice that I am right

and I have to prove others wrong...is a game of Mind and in this

game even the highest truth gets lost.

 

AUM

[Guest guest]

> What is the importance of Arguments and contradictions in Spiritual

> Progress of an individual with the group or to the group with an

> individual?

 

Badriji, this is a very intelligent question.........

 

Arguments, contradictions are all at the level of the mind. Human

beings are called Manav, or mental beings.

 

The mind likes to divide, break down, analyse, debate. But the mind is

not an instrument of knowledge(though it pretends to be). True

knowledge is always had from higher sources(Buddhi, Vivek ).

 

As long as humans live in the mind, they will always argue, debate.

Some religons are purely based in mind- the Semitic ones. While

eastern religons like Hinduism, Buddhism say we should go beyond the mind.

 

You hear all these debates about science vs religon, people trying to

prove God exists. Such people will always lose to science, as the

mental domain is one of science.

 

The Self exists beyond the mind, where there are no proofs, no

debates, there th Self is just IS.

 

Debates maybe ok in beginning, but they show the asiprant is still a

beginner.

 

> Does God like to be questioned or he likes Monopoly on His decisions?

 

With our petty mind, we can never hope to understand God. Its like

trying to see an atom with a magnifying glass. So as such, all

philosophies, religons, including Hinduism, are wrong.

 

But, I like Aurobindos words " There is no untruth- its either Truth in

the making, or Truth in the breaking "

 

love

Shantnu

[Guest guest]

Dear Shantnu,

 

Your words are wisely itched, Just a small correction, hope don't mind.

 

Manava = Manasya yeiwa Thatho Manavaha ( The one who is ultimately

ruled by Mana Or Emotions, See how much ever we try , we cannot be

ruled by knowledge or intillegence, whatever knowledge or

understanding we have, that also simulates some emotion in us, and it

is this emotion that controls us) .

 

-- Deito

 

Harirnama Harirnama Harirnama Kevalam.

 

 

, shanracer <no_reply wrote:

>

> > What is the importance of Arguments and contradictions in

[Guest guest]

Badriji,

 

those who have predecided that they are right and others are

wrong, always argue. Rejection of others faith is narrowmindness as

our brain confirms us before rejection or argument that we are right

and other person has to be proved wrong.

 

In this group the arguements are real, not game of ego. Like

recent arguements by Aum and sarvamatha, these are constructive

arguments not game of ego or hurting

 

ansuya

[Guest guest]

, ansuya80 <no_reply wrote:

Dear Anusuya very rightly said.

 

I wonder why people think that spirituality is about arguements. I think

spirituality is about resolving conflicts. Spirituality is faith and

acceptance.Its experience and understanding.Its understanding things in a right

light.Not arguing and questioning.

 

Dear Sarvamatha,

 

it is very easy for people to give sermons and talk about big big

things like you should have done that or this. Judging people and

situations in a detatched manner without any compassion and

understanding of the reality is not a part of sadhna. Telling them

that they should " act " because " acting is a weapon " is not a part of

sadhna.Sadhaks dont " act " /pretend. This kind of forgiveness is

merely pretension and there is no greatnessin it. I have seen many

people saying -I will keep quiet, his karma will come back to him and punish

him.I dont need to retaliate because acting is my weapon.This is not forgiveness

or a part of sadhna.

>

Badri ji,

the sad thing is that people take shrewdness as a yard stick to judge great

people and their simplicity. For understanding causes, people who work for them

and their activities people need simplicity and not shrewdness.

[Guest guest]

> Your words are wisely itched, Just a small correction, hope don't >mind.

 

Deitoji, Mana(or manas) means sense mind, which includes lower

emotions, physical mind(that which works on physical body & its laws).

 

I have never heard the term Mana used for emotional mind only.

 

love

Shantnu

[Guest guest]

Thanks Shantnu,

 

I got what you are trying to tell, Manas - Sanskrit dictionary also

tells as Mind.

 

Manah/Manas was Mind - " the element in an individual that feels,

perceives, thinks, wills, and especially, reasons. " In the Avesta and

Vedic Sanskrit, it stands for MIND, intellect, intelligence,

understanding, perception, sense, conscience, will; in fact, all the

mental powers

 

But when we map this to English, English Mind is actually a bit

different. you would have to remove conscience , Will , Perception and

Intellect. ( not intelligence , only intellect )

 

Manas ¯ Higher mind.

 

Mantram ¯ Formula or arrangement of words or syllables which, when

correctly sounded, invokes energy.

 

 

And a valid Argument is one, which helps us to invoke this Higher Mind,

and control it.

 

Control it ?... with what.

 

Hridya...

 

This is the answer. were you able to identify the point.. I just wanted

to make a point that manavas need to use Argument , for Establishment

of Such Mind control with Higher Mind OR emotion.

 

I hope you agree Emotion is part of higher mind. and The argument which

we are having right now in this thread is a perfect example of this.

Such arguments are for the purpose of understanding and elevation. and

i very important.

 

see the relation.. action proving its very purpose.

 

 

-- Deito

 

Harirnama Harirnama Harirnama Kevalam.

 

 

 

, shanracer <no_reply wrote:

[Guest guest]

Deitoji, you have completely lost me- you are going off on some

completely different tangent.

 

If you read my original post, I was talking about the Manomaya

Purusha, the Mental Being of the Upanishads. Where did emotions or the

English Mind come from?

 

But this wasnt the discussion of either the original question, or my

answer to it. I think you are just trying to impress us with your

minute knowledge of obsurce stuff. Well sir, I am impressed.

[Guest guest]

-

" BHADRA RAO JANAGAM " <bjanagam wrote:

 

What is the importance of Arguments and contradictions in Spiritual

Progress of an individual with the group or to the group with an

individual?

Does God like to be questioned or he likes Monopoly on His decisions?

--\

-------------

An interesting question!

The whole creation works to the Law of the Lord. He is the Law Himself, the

Law Maker and the Dispenser of that Law too. The best thing for a seeker to

do is to accept His Will. Whatever good or bad comes in one's life, accept

that to be His Will. Surrender is the name of the game, that is the only way

to make spiritual progress. You may call it God's Monopoly if you like but

that is how the things are and it is a fact of life.

 

Arguments and cotradictions have no place in spiritual progress.

Inquisitiveness definitely has a place for making spiritual progress, where

scriptures are the final authority. If I say something, I am only saying

what I know or how I understand the subject matter. If there is

disagreement, there is no point arguing about it, yes one may present one's

own point of view, but scripture is the final authority.

 

To make spiritual progress there are four essentials one needs to keep in

mind:

1. Faith in God.

2. Faith in the Guru.

3. Faith in the scriptures and last but not the least,

4. faith in oneself.

 

Hari Om

radhakutir

[Guest guest]

I am not trying to impress anyone, I am sorry if you have felt so. I

dont get anything by impressing you, anyone of you .. and i know this

truth very very well.

 

Well the topic is excatly in - line, well, as you said now i have to

end this not by extention, but by agreeing that I am off topic and

please forgive me my sin.

 

-- Deito.

 

Madhavaya Namaha, Keshavaya Namaha, Vedaya Namaha, Raghavaya Namaha,

Kshetragnaya Namaha, Harirnama Harirnama Harirnama Kevalam.

 

 

, shanracer <no_reply wrote:

>

> Deitoji, you have completely lost me- you are going off on some

[Guest guest]

, deito01 <no_reply wrote:

 

My dear Deito,

 

We are all mature people here, and the main moto of this group is

Love. If you or anyone feel hurt...I apoligise on behalf of those who

hurt you or anyone.... be angry with me not with each other... And I

request all of you to more loving and forgiving.... we can say our

views without hurting or without getting hurt.

 

Please take this as little pinching by spiritual brothers and

continue ....

 

Thanks Keshavji and Swami Radhakutir ji for so beautifully explaining.

 

With love and good wishes

 

AUM

[Guest guest]

Thanks Aum,

 

See more than my personal endevours, This group and content-hood

between its members is important, and I see My Lord is praised many

times in this group.. so i by any means cannot hurt anyone , involved

in this group.

 

But, please do not apologize, for neither I get hurt by some remarks

made by anyone else other than my Lord, Nor i get content, just by

reading this, and not really feeling for Lord.

 

And specially for the Respectable character you are playing in this

life, It does not look good, you requesting me something. you can

always ask.

 

Hari bless all, I am almost neutral now a days by grace of Hari, By

grace of Hari, now a days i am really atleast starting to see things

REALLY as same, whether they are good or bad. I see them just as act

of My Lord, to give me place at his Lotus Feet.

 

Harihi Eko Achintya... Chintanam Vyapyanthi Sarvaha. Paranthu ..

Krsnasya Karunavashath, Harinam Bakthanaam api, Chintasya Mukthir

bhavathi.

 

-- Deito

 

" Hari is alone, owner of all thoughts and hence free form them, other

than that what ever exists, Is Encapsulated by Thought, BUT still, by

the mercy of the Owner ( Krsna, Hari), His Devotees get free form

Thoughts too. They no more are bound and controlled by thoughts, as

they are part of the controller "

 

-- Deito

 

Harirnama Harirnama Harirnama Kevalam.

 

 

 

, " Aum " <beirut_ka_baba wrote:

> Please take this as little pinching by spiritual brothers and

> continue ....

>

> Thanks Keshavji and Swami Radhakutir ji for so beautifully explaining.

[Guest guest]

, radhakutir <radhaktr wrote:

> To make spiritual progress there are four essentials one needs to

keep in

> mind:

> 1. Faith in God.

> 2. Faith in the Guru.

> 3. Faith in the scriptures and last but not the least,

> 4. faith in oneself.

>

> Hari Om

> radhakutir

>

Thank You Radhakutirji for the explanation but where are these

scriptures came from, from people like you and me with more knowledge

or spiritual level. So to understand them don't we need a discussion

and some discussions may convert into arguments. For every view there

will be a counter view and then only I think we can reach to some kind

of solution.

If I accept what ever you say then where is development, what is the

next stage, am I not following blindly without any knowledge or path

of my own. I'm not talking this as an individual physical body but as

a soul.

 

 

Regards

 

 

Badri

[Guest guest]

, " BHADRA RAO JANAGAM " <bjanagam

wrote:

but where are these

> scriptures came from, from people like you and me with more knowledge

> or spiritual level.

 

Badri Bhai, I would like to say here that our scriptures (veda,

gita, Sankhya, Vedanta, Tantra..the main ones) were not written by

people like you and me.

 

Vedas are eternal and are words of god

gita was spoken by Lord Hari himself

Sankhya was written by Kapil, incarnation of god

Vedanta was told by Vedvyasa, another incarnation of god

Tantra was revealed by Bhagwan shankar himself

 

These scriptures dont need discussion and arguments... these can be

understood by rising above material levels. These scriptures dont have

KNOWLEDGE...they have WISDOM.

 

We can read this scriptures...but cant understand them properly

without going above lower mental levels.... and lower mind is the

place for arguments.

 

If a saint is teaching Gita to you... listen and grasp the

energies... yes you may ask for clarification...but arguments will

lose the subtle energy being emitted by the saint.

 

Rather I would say a real siddha guru will not read Gita before

you....sitting with him make you understand Gita..automatically

 

with good wishes

 

Aum

[Guest guest]

, " Aum " <beirut_ka_baba wrote:

>

 

>

> Rather I would say a real siddha guru will not read Gita before

> you....sitting with him make you understand Gita..automatically

>

 

>WHAT A GREAT TRUTH YOU SAID BABA!!! a GURU NEED NOT SPEAK OR GIVE

SERMON JUST BEING NEAR HIM FOR A MINUTE IS ENOUGH TO PUT GITA IN YOUR

HEART ITSELF. WHAT A GREAT THING YOU SAID

 

BADRI JI- KRISHNA SAYS- " SHRADDHAVAN LABHYTO GYAANAM "

 

THE FAITHFUL HAVE GYAANA AND GYAANA OR SPIRITUAL PURSUIT HAVE NO PLACE

FOR ANYTHING EXCEPT FAITH- NO REJECTION OR ARGUEMENTS

[Guest guest]

-

" BHADRA RAO JANAGAM " <bjanagam wrote:

 

Thank You Radhakutirji for the explanation but where are these

scriptures came from, from people like you and me with more knowledge

--\

---------------

Fellow seeker AUM has very nicely answered your question in one of his

posts.Nothing more needs to be added to it.

 

If one needs to walk the spiritual path, faith is the crux. Without faith

nothing can be attained on this nobe journey. In the Gita the Lord says

" Shraddhavan Labahte Gyanam " .

As the saying goes, " faith can move mountains " . I think without faith one

would be wandering in the, Alice's wonderland " .

 

Hari Om

radhakutir

[Guest guest]

This is very interesting thread.

 

May i please share a verse from Srimad Bhagvad Gita in this

connection?

 

Chapter 10, verse 32

 

sarganam adir antas ca

madhyam caivaham arjuna

adhyatma-vidya vidyanam

vadah pravadatam aham (10:32 )

 

 

Of all creations I am the beginning and the end and also the middle,

O Arjuna. Of all sciences I am the spiritual science of the self,

and among logicians " I am the conclusive truth. "

 

Krishna says in this beautiful verse " He is *pravadatam' - the

conclusive Truth!

 

There are different types of 'arguments' ...

 

1) Jalpa - In this type of Argumentation , the speaker crushes the

opposition and refutes the arguments of his opponents by strong

criticism using ' manipulative' language - Most crinminal lawyers

and politicians indulge in this type of argumentation ! Mark

Anthhony's funeral speech at the burial of Jesus ceaser used this

technique very effectively ! By using the term ' you are all

honoranble; Mark Anthony proved beyond a reasonable doubt

how 'dishonorable ' all ceaser's friends were including Brutus who

all stabbed Ceaser in the back! In this type of argumentation ,

there is a degree of arrogance!

 

2) Vithanda ---Here , the motive is to tear the opponents arguments

to pieces by a merciless criticism employing both fair and foul

means , imaginary or real reasoning techniques - the aim is to

totally take away the confidence of the opponent by making him/her

look foolish ! This type of arguments takes place during

parliamentary debating sessions - each political party resorts to

the culvert art of lying and misrepresentation.

 

3) Vaada - this is supposed to be the 'best' line of argumentation

in Spiritual discourses! Here , there is no motive in indulging

in 'Vivada' ( argumentation) only Samvaada ( a healthy dialogue)

where there is no hair -splitting - only sticking to Truth and facts

as far as possible. In vaada , there is no attemt to conquer

the 'opponent - the aim is only to convince the opponent of the

underlying Truth ! the best example of this is the debate between

Adi shankara Bhagvadapada and Mandan Mishra ! iN THIS DEBATE IN

WHICH ADI SHANKARA BHAGVADAPADA DEFEATED HIS OPPONENT MANDAN MISHRA

BY SKILLFULLY EMPLOYING THE TECHNIQUE OF *VAADA* - at the end of the

devbate , Manda mishra's wife Udhayabharati garlanded Adi shankara

as winner and both the husband and wife ( the Mishras) became Adi

shankara's disciples! in fact . Adi shankara even constructed the

famous 'sharadambha' temple in Sringeri in honor of Mandan mishra's

wife.. ( there is another story regarding 'siddhis' which i will

relate later!

 

So , guys , Argue , by all means argue ! BUT BY TARKA AND NITI

SHASTRA , help the sadhaks towards the ultimate Truth! Do not use

faulty and overbearing Logic but Use of shrutis and smrithis ,

puranas and ithihasas , ( use of scriptures)!

 

SO STUDY DEEPLY - " SWADHYAYAM KURU' SAYS THE UPANISHADS! MANANAM,

SRAVANAM AND NIDDHIYASADANAM - REMEMBER TO PRACTICE THIS! (

LISTENING , CONTEMPLATION AND DAILY PRACTICE)

 

REMEMBER:

 

" A bird with sufficiently long beak can catch a fish just swimming

below the surface of the water but the *same bird* cannot do harm to

a fish in deep ocean. "

 

KNOWLEDGE AND WISDOM are the ornaments of a spiritual aspirant !

when Realization dawns , he becomes a Siddha!

 

Harihi Aum!