sacrifice for this age - Hearing the transcendental message of Godhead

[Madanmohandas 0]

'Butchering a verse Srila Prabhupad translated' speak for yourself.

Really quite an outrageous thing to say. Do you take pleasure in it?

We can surely analyse the text to gain deeper meanings.

It is a wonderful verse and thanks for quoting it.

Just imagine, the great lord Siva imparting the

highest truth to his beloved and devoted consort, addressing her as 'devi', goddess.

 

O goddess! ArAdhanAnAM sarvesaM, of all varieties of adoration,

viSNu ArAdhanaM param, the adoration of Visnu is highest;

tasmAd, therefore, parataraM, superior to that,

tadiyAnAm samarcanam, is the worship of those

things and persons belonging and related to him.

[Guruvani 0]

 

'Butchering a verse Srila Prabhupad translated' speak for yourself.

Really quite an outrageous thing to say. Do you take pleasure it?

We can surely analyse the text to gain deeper meanings.

It is a wonderful verse and thanks for quoting it.

Just imagine, the great lord Siva imparting the

highest truth to his beloved and devoted consort, addressing her as 'devi', goddess.

 

O goddess! ArAdhanAnAM sarvesaM, of all varieties of adoration,

viSNu ArAdhanaM param, the adoration of Visnu is highest;

tasmAd, therefore, parataraM, superior to that,

tadiyAnAm samarcanam, is the worship of those

things and persons belonging and related to him.

 

well, you say that "tadiya" meant "objects" and Srila Prabhupada translated it as "Vaishnva", so that what I disagree with.

 

We might have different ideas of what a "Vaishnva" is but that is another subject altogether.

 

You offered a different translation to the verse that I don't accept.

 

Maybe my idea of "Vaishnava" is a little more rigid that yours, but my idea of "Vaishnava" as Lord Siva might refer to would not be some neophyte sadhaka wearing robes and clay on his nose.

[Guruvani 0]

 

Since it's Srila Prabhupada who says, "Then he says again, tasmat parataram devi. "My dear Devi, better than that Visnu worship is tadiyanam samarcanam." Tadiya. Tadiya means those who are in relationship with Visnu, tadiya. Just like His devotee, tadiya. Tulasi-vrksa. Tulasi is tadiya. Or temple tadiya. Preaching tadiya. Tadiyanam samarcanam. This is bhagavata. So Lord Siva recommends that "Of all methods of worship, Visnu worship is the best, and better than Visnu worship is to worship His devotee or things in relationship with Him," and not just on this one occasion, I don't see how you can reasonably call another way of reading the verse that's not different in substance from that one translation butchering, speculation, or "seriously flawed." That reading comes directly from Srila Prabhupada.

 

That said, Prabhupada's use of tadiya, especially in his books, is essentially worshiping the vaisnavas. As far as which vaishnavas are on the same level as the Lord, here's what Lord Chaitanya Mahaprabhu has to say:

diksa-kale bhakta kare atma-samarpana

sei-kale krsna tare kare atma-sama

 

"At the time of initiation, when a devotee fully surrenders unto the service of the Lord, Krsna accepts him to be as good as Himself. (

Cc

. Antya 4.192)

 

 

It is significant that the Lord qualifies that with atma-samarpana. That leaves the question of who is qualified to judge. You guys can argue that until go-dhuli. I have to get myself moved out of my house so our renters can move in.

very nice, I can't argue with that.

 

sometimes I play devil's advocate just to stir things up a little and get people to thinking and digging and researching.

 

I think I will submit surrender at this point and agree with you both.

 

Your explanations are fine and good.

 

I don't want to press my luck any further with this topic...

[Guruvani 0]

Babhru is one of the finest grhasta devotees in the movement.

If I was half a good as him I would be in good shape.

[Guruvani 0]

 

diksa-kale bhakta kare atma-samarpana

sei-kale krsna tare kare atma-sama

 

"At the time of initiation, when a devotee fully surrenders unto the service of the Lord, Krsna accepts him to be as good as Himself. (

Cc

. Antya 4.192)

 

 

 

 

"Fully surrenders" is the key conception.

Who of us is "FULLY" surrendered?

I am not the judge, but I would imagine that many of you would admit to being less than "FULLY" surrendered.

 

I read something the other day where Srila Sridhar Maharaja equated diksha with a process in which one attains a spiritual body.

 

I'll try to to find it again and see if we all can't get a little deeper insight into what DIKSHA really is.

 

There is formal diksha and then there is REAL diksha when we give up everything, surrender to Krishna totally and attain a spiritual form.

[stonehearted 0]

Yes--diksa is a process, an ongoing process of surrender and revelation. The imparting of the mantra is meant to jump start this process. Whether that happens depends on the intentions of both parties, but ultimately on the Lord's mercy.

[Guruvani 0]

 

Yes--diksa is a process, an ongoing process of surrender and revelation.

 

I get revelations every time I read the books of Srila Prabhupada.

I have been reading them for over 32 years and I have just touched the surface of what those books contain.

 

I find that participating on this forum and researching questions helps me realize new revelations almost daily.

 

The funny thing is that revelation will continue for eternity.

Thats' quite amazing to say the least.

Its' also quite inspiring..............

[stonehearted 0]

 

Babhru is one of the finest grhasta devotees in the movement.

If I was half a good as him I would be in good shape.

Oh, for Pete's sake! As nice as it is for you to say so (and I do appreciate it, honestly), it's just embarrassing, especially when I know so many really exemplary grihasthas who have lived such dedicated lives.

 

But while we're at it, I'd like to observe how encouraging it is that you've come to give so much of your time to hearing from Srila Prabhupada's books. It's too easy for us to focus on someone else's shortcomings, real or imagined, and point out what we may consider falldowns, in order to make ourselves look better by comparison (in our mind only; everyone else sees the ugly truth when we succumb to such temptation). The important thing, though, is how dedicated they are to the processes of devotional service.

[theist 1]

 

SB 1.1.8 - And because you are submissive, your spiritual masters have endowed you with all the favors bestowed upon a gentle disciple. Therefore you can tell us all that you have scientifically learned from them.

 

One thing that stands out to me in this verse is the plurality of Suta's Gosvami's spiritual masters. He is referred to here as a submissive gentle disciple of all of them and not just one in particular.

 

[...]Another point is that disciplic succession does not mean one has to be directly a disciple of a particular person. The conclusions which we have tried to explain in our Bhagavad-gita As It Is is the same as those conclusions of Arjuna. Arjuna accepted Krishna as the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and we also accept the same truth under the disciplic succession of Caitanya Mahaprabhu. Things equal to the same thing are equal to one another. This is an axiomatic truth. So there is no difference of opinion of understanding Krishna between ourselves and Arjuna. Another example is that a tree has many branches, and you will find one leaf here and another leaf there. But if you take this leaf and the other leaf and you press them both, you will see that the taste is the same. The taste is the conclusion, and from the taste you can understand that both leaves are from the same tree.[...] - Excerpt letter to Kirtananda 1969

Another thing is the use of the word scientific by Srila Prabhupada to describe Suta Goswami's approach to learning from them. Since we are not talking about microscopes and telescopes here what is there about the process of the disciple - guru relationship that is scientific? How are we to understand that word in this context?

[theist 1]

 

SB 1.1.9 - Please, therefore, being blessed with many years, explain to us, in an easily understandable way, what you have ascertained to be the absolute and ultimate good for the people in general.

 

 

No need for fancy mumbo jumbo or quoting sakskrit verses at people especially when we don't understand it ourselves. Just a couple weeks ago I met a temple devotee and we were chatting when he suddenly burst into mimicking a verse in sanskrit and in a tone implying great authority.

 

I then told him I did not understand sanskrit and I asked him if he did. He said no. So I asked him why he was trying to speak in a language that neither of us understood. He answered, "It is purifying."

 

As we learn from the above verse understanding the truth itself is purifying and the easiest and most simple way we can communicate that is best for bringing about "the absolute and ultimate good for the people in general." And that and that alone should be our motive when trying to engage others in hearing the message of Godhead.

[stonehearted 0]

By "scientific," I've always understood that Prabhupada means systematic, according to prescribed process, progressive.

 

As far as using Sanskrit (and Bengali) verses goes, I do so fairly often, mostly because it helps me remember the points the verse makes. It works as a mnemonic device for me, somehow.

[Guruvani 0]

I would think that Srila Prabhupada is deriving "scientific" from the Sanskrit word tattvataḥ which means "in fact" which indicates that Suta Goswami was blessed with a genuine understanding through the disciplic succession of descending knowledge.

 

What Suta Goswami was giving was parampara knowledge coming via srota parampara which means that his knowledge was not speculative but scientifically received through parampara or disciplic succession.

 

Thus, it is scientific and NOT speculative.

[Guruvani 0]

Srila Prabhupada was refering to spiritual science and NOT material science.

 

Material science is not real science because it is all experimental and speculative.

 

Actually, only knowledge that comes from above is true science.

 

Material speculation and experimental research should never be considered as true science as it is all speculative and experimental.

 

Science means that it is factual as revealed through parampara.

[Guruvani 0]

maybe the ISKCON "scientists" should have been referred to as the ISKCON "speculators" as they have come up with some doozies as far as I can see?

[Guruvani 0]

The real ISKCON scientists are the ones who accepted knowledge via the parampara and rejected mundane speculations.

[theist 1]

 

By "scientific," I've always understood that Prabhupada means systematic, according to prescribed process, progressive.

 

As far as using Sanskrit (and Bengali) verses goes, I do so fairly often, mostly because it helps me remember the points the verse makes. It works as a mnemonic device for me, somehow.

 

I can see how it could help someone as youself because you know the word meanings in question. You are the exception though. But when talking to someone who doesn't know them it doesn't really help them and it works against the principle of of making what is said "easily understandable."

 

Another example is talking over people even using the same language. Like it takes a certain grasp of a foundational concept before a higher concept can be built upon it and stand. We have to be able to ascertain where a person is in their understanding and then add the next level if we are able.

 

There is little use in telling someone who has just come to appreciate that God is great about how the Lord is a little boy, dark like a newly formed monsoon cloud, who steals butter from the village mothers and feeds it to the monkey's.

[Madanmohandas 0]

The systematic treatment of the subject is what is lacking, if I may say, in ISKCON. Various answers might be givin to one question. The 'scientific' approach to this kind of subject would be that of analasasys and synthesis.

Thakura Bhaktivinoda provided the 'Dasa Mula' or ten fundamental priciples of Gaudiya Vaisnava doctrine. Those ten points present the teachings of lord Gauranga in a way that can be commited to memory and the devotee can relish the explanations of each point. Systematising the teachings in that way is very helpful. In the Gaudiya Mission it is compulsory for new comers to learn by heart the Dasa Mula. It's like learning by rote which creates an impression on the mind.

[stonehearted 0]

 

I would think that Srila Prabhupada is deriving "scientific" from the Sanskrit word tattvataḥ which means "in fact" which indicates that Suta Goswami was blessed with a genuine understanding through the disciplic succession of descending knowledge.

 

What Suta Goswami was giving was parampara knowledge coming via srota parampara which means that his knowledge was not speculative but scientifically received through parampara or disciplic succession.

 

Thus, it is scientific and NOT speculative.

Nice--I like this perspective. Lowborn made a similar point on the other thread.

[stonehearted 0]

 

The systematic treatment of the subject is what is lacking, if I may say, in ISKCON. Various answers might be givin to one question. The 'scientific' approach to this kind of subject would be that of analasasys and synthesis.

Thakura Bhaktivinoda provided the 'Dasa Mula' or ten fundamental priciples of Gaudiya Vaisnava doctrine. Those ten points present the teachings of lord Gauranga in a way that can be commited to memory and the devotee can relish the explanations of each point. Systematising the teachings in that way is very helpful. In the Gaudiya Mission it is compulsory for new comers to learn by heart the Dasa Mula. It's like learning by rote which creates an impression on the mind.

Good idea. Perhaps your experience of ISKCON is somwhat limited. (So is mine.) But I'd guess there are many in ISKCON familiar with Dasa-mula. I was introduced to it in '71 or '72 by my temple president in Honolulu. And it's now widely available.

[stonehearted 0]

 

I can see how it could help someone as youself because you know the word meanings in question. You are the exception though. But when talking to someone who doesn't know them it doesn't really help them and it works against the principle of of making what is said "easily understandable."

Oh, I think your quite right. And I usually apologize and explain that I find the Sanskrit or Bengali verses or terms helpful mnemonics.

 

 

[Madanmohandas 0]

What about the Dasa mula? If I list them here and invite whoever feels like it to comment or explain with referance from sastra each point, or a few people could give their explanations on the first point and then we could proceed point by point. It could be great fun. Perhaps I should start a new thread for it. See what the moderator decides.

 

atha, now then,

 

1. Divine truths are declared in the Vedas.

 

2. Hari is supreme.

 

3. He is endowed with infinite power.

 

4. He is the repositry of rasa.

 

5. Living entities are his disassociated parts.

 

6. Some are covered by Maya.

 

7. Some are released from Maya.

 

8. All existance is distinct and non-distinct from Hari.

 

9. The means to actualise realisation is bhakti.

 

10. The ultimate fulfilment is intence love for Hari.

 

We can get a lot of pleasure explaining all these points, as lord Krsna says,

 

mac-cittA mad-gata-prANA

bodhayantah parasparam/

kathayantazca mAM nityaM

tuSyanti ca ramanti ca// Gita 10.9

 

Minds fixed in me, lives giv'n to me,

Each praising me to each,

Of me conversing always they,

With joy and peace are filled.

[Madanmohandas 0]

O yes, my experience of ISKCON is limited. I was there from 83-87. And I know they have now publeshed a book on Dasa Mula. I should not have said that maybe-no offence intended.

[theist 1]

 

What about the Dasa mula? If I list them here and invite whoever feels like it to comment or explain with referance from sastra each point, or a few people could give their explanations on the first point and then we could proceed point by point. It could be great fun. Perhaps I should start a new thread for it. See what the moderator decides.

 

atha, now then,

 

1. Divine truths are declared in the Vedas.

 

2. Hari is supreme.

 

3. He is endowed with infinite power.

 

4. He is the repositry of rasa.

 

5. Living entities are his disassociated parts.

 

6. Some are covered by Maya.

 

7. Some are released from Maya.

 

8. All existance is distinct and non-distinct from Hari.

 

9. The means to actualise realisation is bhakti.

 

10. The ultimate fulfilment is intence love for Hari.

 

We can get a lot of pleasure explaining all these points, as lord Krsna says,

mac-cittA mad-gata-prANA

bodhayantah parasparam/

kathayantazca mAM nityaM

tuSyanti ca ramanti ca// Gita 10.9

 

Minds fixed in me, lives giv'n to me,

Each praising me to each,

Of me conversing always they,

With joy and peace are filled.

 

Worthy subject for it's on thread. No reason for it not going on for hundreds of pages. Actually when you think about those ten points are what the whole spiritual discussions board should be used for.

 

I am totally unfamilar with the history of how Dasa mula came to be written etc. so a bief history at the start would be helpful.

 

Go for it Madanamohandas.

[Madanmohandas 0]

Well it's Thakura Bhaktivinoda's inovation, based on something Baladeva Vidyabhusana did showing how the nine prameyas or propositions of Madhva Acarya corelate to the teachings of lord Gauranga. Bhaktivinoda has derived it almost entirely on the teachings found in the Caitanya Caritamrta.

There was also the famous verse of Srinatha Cakravarti, ArAdhyo bhagavAn... etc. which Bhaktivinoda wanted to expand on, and with a kind of synthisis of the two ( Baladeva's and Srinatha's) prameyas, came up with the Dasa Mula.

All Bhaktivoda's major works include the detailed analysis of the Dasa Mula, particularly Jaiva Dharma, Caitanya Siksamrta, Hari Nama Cintamani etc.

Baladeva's Prameya Ratnavali expounds the nine prameyas. When I come back I can list them here too.

 

Oh and 'Sri Caitanya His Life and Precepts' offers the perfect explanations in the Thakura's own English. It's in the second part, 'His Pecepts'.

[Madanmohandas 0]

Thanks for the encouragement Theist.

Here's Baladeva Vidyabhusana's 9 propostions derived from Madhva.

 

1. Visnu is supreme.

2. He is known through the scripture.

3. The universe is real.

4. The differences therein are real.

5. The jivas are servants of Hari and are real.

6. The differences among them are real.

7. Liberation consists in obtaining the feet of Visnu.

8. The means is worship with purity of heart.

9. The proofs are three - perception, inference and holy writ.

 

Then Srinatha Cakravarti's verse found in the invocation to his commentary on the Bhagavatam.

 

1. The almighty lord and object of worship is the son of the cowherd chief.

2. His sacred abode is Vrndavan.

3. The highest and most delightful mode of adoration is that concieved by the young brides of Vraja.

4. Srimad Bhagavatam is the imaculate proof.

5. Divine love is the ultimate end.