Manu Vaivasvata

[Murali_Mohan_das 0]

Delightful exposition!! As you and Srila Sridhar Maharaja say, we are more with evolution of consciousness than with evolution of the species.

 

However, taking what you said one step further (into the realm of my speculations)...

 

I've often wondered if "showing off" is a strong evolutionary factor. Rather than seeing creation as a desperate struggle for survival among adversaries, why not consider that each minute jiva soul is yelling "Look what *I* can do!!" as they do back-flips in glee!

 

Of course, maybe I've just run past the skate park one too many times

 

 

I was studying Brhadbhagavatamrtam by Srila Sanatana Goswami, looking at the things he says about the svarup of the jiva-atma. I found that Sanatana had said that the jiva has senses and sense organs such as the prototype ear and nose, even when merged in Brahman (((sleeping atma-vigrahas who are not on earth but in Vaikuntha, please stop reading now!!! what I say after this will be incomprehensible to you))).

 

Because the soul is consciousness he can manifest from his subtle [astral or mental] body a nose, ear, eyes etc in order to experience a reality outside of brahmaloka (nirvisesha brahman).

 

According to Sankhya, with the description of 24 elements of creation, etc., SB 3.26.35 etc.. the sky or space is produced from mind, and when the sky is produced the ear which hears sound moving in the sky also manifests.

 

Anyhow, I was thinking about this and about something someone from the Gaudiya Math said:

 

 

Where Guru Maharaj speaks of the sun and moon he means the DEVA who is a celestial body or celestial being; he doesn't mean the physical sun and moon which are the bodies that become manifest from tamoguna (earth,water-hydrogen-oxygen,fire).

 

And it ocurred to me that maybe there is a third option for the creation of life on this planet besides creationism and evolution through chance.

 

It occurred to me that maybe little minds inside of little embryos that are first a single cell and are then dividing and sub-dividing, maybe these little minds emerging from the universal mind of "mahat-tattva" are the causes of evolution.

 

Personally, I do believe souls in ignorance enter into water and then wriggle like sperms or tadpoles and evolve to a higher stage of life. Some only have a limited creative drive and they form less complex bodies, but others with backing from a higher consciousness, those souls may conceive a more complex "eye" and "ear" that will evolve on their head. So then, from the sperm of a rishi like Kasyapa there can be one son who evolves a bird head (Garuda) and another who has a snake head (Vasuki).

 

anyhow, just some random thoughts....

 

and you creationists and guruvani (the destructionist), don't bother trying to drag me into debates about Creationism because I'm a committed evolutionist (of some sort).

 

Theoretically, I'm not opposed to the idea that living creatures can arise from slime that evolves from chemicals on the seashore. What is the sea, anyhow? Mother ocean? Prakriti? And besides that, a human baby grows from some slime that comes from a man's body. What interests me more, however, is the mental energy [mind-stuff] within that slime which is trying to evolve into a "happy" state of mind.

[Murali_Mohan_das 0]

...and, in the Dasavatara Stotaram, one can (if so inclined) see a Divine Evolution of the Species.

 

The Lord comes as fish, tortoise, boar, etc. in ever-increasingly complex forms.

 

 

the earth arose from the ocean through the power of varaha

life arose from the ocean, from the womb of the oceanic brahman.

[Guest guest]

 

...and, in the Dasavatara Stotaram, one can (if so inclined) see a Divine Evolution of the Species.

 

The Lord comes as fish, tortoise, boar, etc. in ever-increasingly complex forms.

 

Really, this is a joke. There are humans on Earth already when these pasttimes are taking place according to scripture.

[Guest guest]

 

Really, this is a joke. There are humans on Earth already when these pasttimes are taking place according to scripture.

 

List from Wikipedia under Avatar subject:

 

Matsya, the fish, appeared in the Satya Yuga.

Kurma, the tortoise, appeared in the Satya Yuga.

Varaha, the boar, appeared in the Satya Yuga.

Narasimha, the half-man/half-lion appeared in the Satya Yuga.

Vamana, the dwarf, appeared in the Treta Yuga.

Parashurama, Rama with the axe, appeared in the Treta Yuga.

Rama, Ramachandra, the prince and king of Ayodhya, appeared in the Treta Yuga.

Krishna (meaning 'dark coloured' or 'all attractive') appeared in the Dwapara Yuga along with his brother Balarama. According to the Bhagavata Purana Balarama is said to have appeared in the Dwapara Yuga (along with Krishna) as an incarnation of Ananta Shesha. He is also counted as an avatar of Vishnu by the majority of Vaishnava movements and is included as the ninth Dasavatara in some versions of the list which contain no reference to Buddha.

Buddha (meaning 'the enlightened one') appeared in the Kali Yuga (specifically as Siddhartha Gautama).

Kalki ("Eternity", or "time", or "The Destroyer of foulness"), who is expected to appear at the end of Kali Yuga, the time period in which we currently exist, which will end in the year 428899 CE.

======================================================

 

You know quite a few avatars are missing in this general list. Maybe they are the missing link in the transitional divine evolution?

[Murali_Mohan_das 0]

Really??? Humans? Or Devas and Asuras in human-like form.

 

This is just from memory, but in the pastime of Kurma, I recall only mention of Devas and Asuras. Were there common Homo Sapiens as well? Shastric evidence?

 

In any case, I wasn't proposing that this is scientific (or even siddhantic) evidence for evolution, merely that it is a very interesting analog.

 

Maybe it's just my mind, but I cannot help but find significance in this apparent progression.

 

 

Really, this is a joke. There are humans on Earth already when these pasttimes are taking place according to scripture.

[Guest guest]

 

Really??? Humans? Or Devas and Asuras in human-like form.

 

This is just from memory, but in the pastime of Kurma, I recall only mention of Devas and Asuras. Were there common Homo Sapiens as well? Shastric evidence?

 

In any case, I wasn't proposing that this is scientific (or even siddhantic) evidence for evolution, merely that it is a very interesting analog.

 

Maybe it's just my mind, but I cannot help but find significance in this apparent progression.

 

The avatars are there for helping us humans (homo-sapiens).

 

This is the full list from Garuda Purana on wikipedia:

 

The first incarnation was a young boy (kumara). In this form, Vishnu adopted celibacy (brahmacharya) and performed difficult tapasya (meditation).

 

The second incarnation was as a boar (varaha). In this form, Vishnu rescued the earth from the underworld.

 

The third incarnation was as a great sage (devarishi). In this form, Vishnu spread the knowledge of several texts (tantras).

 

The fourth incarnation was as two sages named Nara and Narayana.

 

The fifth incarnation was as the great sage Kapila. Kapila taught his disciple Asuri the wonderful philosophy known as samkhya yoga.

 

The sixth incarantion was as the sage Dattatreya, the son of Atri and Anasuya.

 

The seventh incarnation took place in the manvantra known as svayambhuva. Vishnu was born as the son of Ruchi and Akuti and performed many yajnas (sacrifices).

 

In the eighth incarnation, Vishnu was born as the son of Nabhi and Meru. His name was Urukrama. He taught everyone the righteous way of life.

 

In the ninth incarnation, Vishnu became the king Prithu and restored foodgrains and herbs to the earth.

 

The tenth of Vishnu’s incarnations was as a fish (matsya). He saved Vaivasvata Manu from the flood that enveloped the world.

 

In the eleventh incarnation, Vishnu adopted the form of a turtle (kurma). This was to help out the gods (devas) and demons (asuras) in the churning of the ocean (samudra manthana).

 

The twelfth incarnation was as Dhanvantari, physician of the gods and the originator of medicine.

 

The thirteenth was mohini avatara. In this form, Vishnu adopted the body of a beautiful woman so as to charm and rob the asuras of the amrita (a life-giving drink).

 

In the fourteenth incarnation, Vishnu became Narasimha, a being who was half-man and half-lion. He killed the evil asura Hiranyakashipu as Narasimha.

 

The fifteenth incarnation witnessed Vishnu’s adoption of the form of dwarf (vamana). This was to hoodwink the asura Vali and restore the gods to heaven.

 

In the sixteenth incarnation, Vishnu became Parashurama, killed all the kshatriyas in the world twenty-one times.

 

The seventeenth incarnation was as Vedavyasa, the son of Parashara and Satyavati. Vedavyasa divided the Vedas.

 

Vishnu’s eighteen incarnation was as the sage Narada.

 

The nineteenth incarnation was Rama and the twentieth was Krishna.

 

In the twenty-first incarnation, Vishnu became a Buddha (different from Gautama Buddha).

 

The twenty-second incarnation is yet to come. And Vishnu will come. Vishnu will be born as Kalki, so as to destroy evil in the world and restore righteousness".

 

There have been several other incarnations of Vishnu. But the ones mentioned above are the major ones.

[Murali_Mohan_das 0]

Thanks, that's great. Hasn't it also been said that between the Big Bangs (as described in Srimad Bhagavatam as the inhalations and exhalations of Maha-Vishnu) there are a number of smaller dissolutions?

 

Couldn't Matsya, Kurma, etc. have come after one of these great minor dissolutions wiped all hominids off the face of the earth?

 

Also, these things are cyclical are they not?

 

Why would Jayadev Goswami pick those particular incarnations in that particular order for his Dasavatara Stotaram? Was he not divinely inspired? Or is it a mere coincidence?

 

Was Parashuram a member of "Homo Sapiens"?

 

 

The avatars are there for helping us humans (homo-sapiens).

 

This is the full list from Garuda Purana on wikipedia:

 

The first incarnation was a young boy (kumara). In this form, Vishnu adopted celibacy (brahmacharya) and performed difficult tapasya (meditation).

 

The second incarnation was as a boar (varaha). In this form, Vishnu rescued the earth from the underworld.

 

The third incarnation was as a great sage (devarishi). In this form, Vishnu spread the knowledge of several texts (tantras).

 

The fourth incarnation was as two sages named Nara and Narayana.

 

The fifth incarnation was as the great sage Kapila. Kapila taught his disciple Asuri the wonderful philosophy known as samkhya yoga.

 

The sixth incarantion was as the sage Dattatreya, the son of Atri and Anasuya.

 

The seventh incarnation took place in the manvantra known as svayambhuva. Vishnu was born as the son of Ruchi and Akuti and performed many yajnas (sacrifices).

 

In the eighth incarnation, Vishnu was born as the son of Nabhi and Meru. His name was Urukrama. He taught everyone the righteous way of life.

 

In the ninth incarnation, Vishnu became the king Prithu and restored foodgrains and herbs to the earth.

 

The tenth of Vishnu’s incarnations was as a fish (matsya). He saved Vaivasvata Manu from the flood that enveloped the world.

 

In the eleventh incarnation, Vishnu adopted the form of a turtle (kurma). This was to help out the gods (devas) and demons (asuras) in the churning of the ocean (samudra manthana).

 

The twelfth incarnation was as Dhanvantari, physician of the gods and the originator of medicine.

 

The thirteenth was mohini avatara. In this form, Vishnu adopted the body of a beautiful woman so as to charm and rob the asuras of the amrita (a life-giving drink).

 

In the fourteenth incarnation, Vishnu became Narasimha, a being who was half-man and half-lion. He killed the evil asura Hiranyakashipu as Narasimha.

 

The fifteenth incarnation witnessed Vishnu’s adoption of the form of dwarf (vamana). This was to hoodwink the asura Vali and restore the gods to heaven.

 

In the sixteenth incarnation, Vishnu became Parashurama, killed all the kshatriyas in the world twenty-one times.

 

The seventeenth incarnation was as Vedavyasa, the son of Parashara and Satyavati. Vedavyasa divided the Vedas.

 

Vishnu’s eighteen incarnation was as the sage Narada.

 

The nineteenth incarnation was Rama and the twentieth was Krishna.

 

In the twenty-first incarnation, Vishnu became a Buddha (different from Gautama Buddha).

 

The twenty-second incarnation is yet to come. And Vishnu will come. Vishnu will be born as Kalki, so as to destroy evil in the world and restore righteousness".

 

There have been several other incarnations of Vishnu. But the ones mentioned above are the major ones.

[Guest guest]

 

Thanks, that's great. Hasn't it also been said that between the Big Bangs (as described in Srimad Bhagavatam as the inhalations and exhalations of Maha-Vishnu) there are a number of smaller dissolutions?

 

Couldn't Matsya, Kurma, etc. have come after one of these great minor dissolutions wiped all hominids off the face of the earth?

 

Also, these things are cyclical are they not?

 

Why would Jayadev Goswami pick those particular incarnations in that particular order for his Dasavatara Stotaram? Was he not divinely inspired? Or is it a mere coincidence?

 

Was Parashuram a member of "Homo Sapiens"?

 

From what i read somewhere, brahma periodically directs the sun to a transitional state every few billion years w/ his pyschic pwr. Then the earth floods over. Then again he fixes the sun. then the earth is dry again. we are in a clean state now. i don't know about the other planets or stars and i'm not sure on the timing lengths of all this. this is the most basic description of what goes on.

after a while, he'll put every soul into it's appropriate material form then every species will start procreating. the humans always start off in the arya race in India and will get human civilization going from scratch. so as to the egg vs. chicken it is the chicken that is first in creationism.

[muralidhar_das 0]

Quote:

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...and, in the Dasavatara Stotaram, one can (if so inclined) see a Divine Evolution of the Species.

The Lord comes as fish, tortoise, boar, etc. in ever-increasingly complex forms.

</td> </tr> </tbody></table>

<!-- END TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote -->

 

Really, this is a joke. There are humans on Earth already when these pasttimes are taking place according to scripture.

 

 

 

In Europe the theories of physical evolution of Darwin and Lamarck have been considered. But it is in the Vaishnava philosophy alone that we see the fully scientific and real conception of each eternal and transcendental Divine Form for worship by the freed souls according to their evolutionary growth of serving mood.

 

We can notice the different stages of animal life from the invertebrates to the fully grown human beings. These stages have been classified by the Indian sages of a scientific outlook in ten orders, viz. (1) the invertebrate, (2) testaceous or shelly, (3) vertebrate, (4) erectly vertebrate, as in the combined form of man and beast, (5) mannikin, (6) barbaric, (7) civilized, (8) wise, (9) ultra-wise and (10) destructive. These are the historical stages of the jivas. According to the gradation of these stages as indicators of evolution of the serving mood of the jiva soul, there are manifested the ten Incarnations of God, viz., Matsya (Fish), Kurma (Turtle), Varaha (Boar), Nrsimha (Man-Lion), Vamana (Dwarf), Parasurama, Rama, Krishna, Buddha and Kalki, as worshippable Deities with eternal transcendental Names, Forms, Attributes and Sports. Those, who have aquired a true knowledge about Incarnations with a thorough culture thereof, will be able, with the grace of the philosophers trained in the school of Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu, to appreciate the ontology of Sri Krishna, specially the intense sweetness of His Sports in Braja (i.e. Vrindaban and the neighbour-hood).

 

from "Sri Chaitanya's Teachings" by Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura.

 

I read a reference someplace, showing that this "ten stages" of evolution was initially proposed by an English scientist living in India, and that the idea was picked up by Thakura Bhaktivinode and later by Saraswati Thakur. Has anyone else seen the reference to that scientist? I remember reading his whole ten stages info on Wiki. He was a nineteenth century scientist and a socialist.

[Guest guest]

 

OK, Lowborn Prabhu. You just triggered an acid flashback!!

 

 

Without the acid experience many of Prabhupada's disciples would have remained too stuck in their "square" shells to even consider adopting Krsna consciousnes as a way of life

 

If believing in evolution keeps one's mind peaceful and on the path of bhakti, why bother knocking it down?

 

Only if it expands the mind further there is use for such discussions.

 

The present day theory of evolution is actually extremely simplistic, and that is my point. I want the devotees to look much deeper.

 

I KNOW for a fact the consciousness affects matter - the consciousness (concentration) affects the flight of a ball on the basketball court, just like it affects the flight of an arrow or a sniper's bullet for example. Does it affect the development of a bodily form? IT MUST! After all, there is only so much our genetic information is responsible for - based on the Human Genome project it is much, much less then scientists expected. Our body develops based not only on the genetic information received from our mother and father but also based on our consciousness - those are the subtle things in our appearance, such as perceived beauty and the way we look when we smile, frown or display any emotion. Genetics have nothing to do with that. You can judge the character (consciousness) of many people just by analyzing their appearance (the art of physiognomy specializes in that but we all have a little natural ability in this area).

 

Are various life forms on Earth manifesting varying degrees of spiritual evolution in the way they appear? I have no doubt about that. As to HOW their genetic forms first developed as species? That is an interesting question that the Vedas dont answer in a clear and complete way thus allowing us to have a choice of theories. If it was scientifically obvious that the Vedas are right, we would have NO CHOICE but to believe, and that is not the way this world operates.

[Guest guest]

 

Without the acid experience many of Prabhupada's disciples would have remained too stuck in their "square" shells to even consider adopting Krsna consciousnes as a way of life

 

If believing in evolution keeps one's mind peaceful and on the path of bhakti, why bother knocking it down?

 

Only if it expands the mind further there is use for such discussions.

 

The present day theory of evolution is actually extremely simplistic, and that is my point. I want the devotees to look much deeper.

 

I KNOW for a fact the consciousness affects matter - the consciousness (concentration) affects the flight of a ball on the basketball court, just like it affects the flight of an arrow or a sniper's bullet for example. Does it affect the development of a bodily form? IT MUST! After all, there is only so much our genetic information is responsible for - based on the Human Genome project it is much, much less then scientists expected. Our body develops based not only on the genetic information received from our mother and father but also based on our consciousness - those are the subtle things in our appearance, such as perceived beauty and the way we look when we smile, frown or display any emotion. Genetics have nothing to do with that. You can judge the character (consciousness) of many people just by analyzing their appearance (the art of physiognomy specializes in that but we all have a little natural ability in this area).

 

Are various life forms on Earth manifesting varying degrees of spiritual evolution in the way they appear? I have no doubt about that. As to HOW their genetic forms first developed as species? That is an interesting question that the Vedas dont answer in a clear and complete way thus allowing us to have a choice of theories. If it was scientifically obvious that the Vedas are right, we would have NO CHOICE but to believe, and that is not the way this world operates.

 

you seem expert in Vedas and other things and maybe know all the answers to the questions being asked.

what about the main question i posted?

[muralidhar_das 0]

It occurred to me that the usual translation of statements in the Puranas is that the translators say Varaha lifted the earth from the water. But has the earth planet come from water, or has land emerged from water?

[Guest guest]

 

It occurred to me that the usual translation of statements in the Puranas is that the translators say Varaha lifted the earth from the water. But has the earth planet come from water, or has land emerged from water?

 

Varaha lifted the entire Bhu-mandala out of the Garbhodaka Ocean where it sunk after Lord's arrangement. It has nothing to do with Earth as a planet - the entire earthly realm (dimension) was re-established in it's proper place.

 

We must first understand what the Garbhodaka Ocean really is to grasp the significance of this pastime.

[Guest guest]

 

you seem expert in Vedas and other things and maybe know all the answers to the questions being asked.

what about the main question i posted?

 

I am not an expert in Vedas, but I have studied these subjects for some time and can tell you how I understand them.

 

If you refer to the initial question of this thread, I did provide a simple answer on the first page. If it is a different question, please ask it again.

[Guest guest]

 

I am not an expert in Vedas, but I have studied these subjects for some time and can tell you how I understand them.

 

If you refer to the initial question of this thread, I did provide a simple answer on the first page. If it is a different question, please ask it again.

 

human means flawed.

so best knowledge sources for humans.

details even better.

[Guest guest]

 

human means flawed.

so best knowledge sources for humans.

details even better.

 

Being human is just a stage of our development. Do we ever become flawless? We always grow and change, even in the spiritual world. Why would our development stop there?

 

The best source of knowledge for humans is Vedic literature studied under a competent guru. He may not know all the details but he should be able to point you in the right direction.

[Guest guest]

 

Being human is just a stage of our development. Do we ever become flawless? We always grow and change, even in the spiritual world. Why would our development stop there?

 

The best source of knowledge for humans is Vedic literature studied under a competent guru. He may not know all the details but he should be able to point you in the right direction.

 

one is perfect when one doesn't have flaws but this is not a lack of too much positive. like ones soul, in its liberated status i believe it is perfect. it has enough positive and no negatives to be considered perfect by us. i guess it is a matter of perspective. no it doesn't have god's attributes in quantity or even all the qualities.

 

you know, i don't care about gurus + vedic literature. u know i read tattva-sandharbha. that guy explains the best sources of knowledge. if you can explain on that go ahead. does he tell us to find a guru + vedic literature for a best source of knowlege?

[Guruvani 0]

 

you know, i don't care about gurus + vedic literature. u know i read tattva-sandharbha. that guy explains the best sources of knowledge. if you can explain on that go ahead. does he tell us to find a guru + vedic literature for a best source of knowlege?

I have the book in my my hand and you obviously haven't understood one word of the book.

[Guruvani 0]

Tattva Sandarbha is not for neophytes who don't have a spritual master already.

That is why it doesn't address that issue.

 

Tattva Sandarbha is an essay that defends Srimad Bhagavatam as the most authoritative evidence pointing to the Absolute Truth.

 

It is an arsenal of weapons to fight Nirivisesavadis and establish the topmost position of Srimad Bhagavatam.

 

It's not for canvassing newcomers.

 

It's for educating the preachers and arming them with the knowledge they need to defend the Bhagavat Dharma from Mayavada.

[Guest guest]

 

Tattva Sandarbha is not for neophytes who don't have a spritual master already.

That is why it doesn't address that issue.

 

Tattva Sandarbha is an essay that defends Srimad Bhagavatam as the most authoritative evidence pointing to the Absolute Truth.

 

It is an arsenal of weapons to fight Nirivisesavadis and establish the topmost position of Srimad Bhagavatam.

 

It's not for canvassing newcomers.

 

It's for educating the preachers and arming them with the knowledge they need to defend the Bhagavat Dharma from Mayavada.

 

This has nothing to do with neophytes but a question of proper IQ. What scholars cannot understand Vaisnava philosophy?

Spiritual master could help.

[Guest guest]

 

I have the book in my my hand and you obviously haven't understood one word of the book.

 

It is obviously a language barrier.

Because I understood the English translated book.

[zjj 1]

 

Hare Krishna,

 

I own a copy of FA, Michael Cremo's larger work. It is thought-provoking, no two ways about that, but if you read the reviews of the tome which have been written by the spokespersons of the mainstream scientific establishment, you'll reconsider taking what is contained in it at face value. For a quick, amateurish glimpse into the general reception to Cremo's efforts, just read the response to it on the Amazon online bookstore website. I think that the verdict the public has given of FA is quite damning.

 

And have you read Forbidden Archaeology's Impact? It seems to me that the hysterical reaction the scientific community has had to FA is a lot stronger than it would be to something that was amateurish and quick. It's ridiculous to condemn something because someone else (who has been brainwashed to think a certain way) tells you so. Don't you have a mind of your own? I'm not trying to offend you. I'm just surprised that someone of your obvious reasoning skills would blindly accept what a lot of very flawed people with little evidence are saying. Have you seen the size of FA? You call that work quick? Mr Cremo has amassed tones of evidence in a contrary argument but you're prepared to ignore it in favour of blind obedience to the academic dogma.

 

You do realise that those people have turned their scientific theories into religious dogma? Science is supposed to be the pursuit of truth but it's not about truth to them. It's about protecting their careers with another injection of cash for their pointless research. Believe me, I've seen it happen where a scientist will write papers supporting theories that he knows are incorrect, simply because he will recieve money for the research. In other words, they are propagating LIES on a daily basis and feeding those same lies to the public. Not all scientists are like that but it happens much more often than you think.

 

Jai