Guest guest Posted February 27, 2007 Report Share Posted February 27, 2007 The placenta is simply a piece of flesh that attaches the baby to the mother in the uterus. It is not a living entity that once outside the womb continues to produce oxygen. Once it is delivered it dies and within five minutes can simply become fluid. Some placentas are harder and last a few days, but at this point, they are rotting and smelling. I knew people who had a lotus birth and actually allowed the placenta to fall of and it took a few days. At that point it was a lump of rotting meat but their child was certainly breathing. The placenta can to live outside of the womb. In scriptures it was intended that just for a few minutes after delivery the placenta should be kept attached so as not to cause shock by cutting the child from the mother. This does to hurt the child. The placenta and chord are not part of the child's physiology. They are there for nutrition and oxygen supply. But, the placenta has pulse. Perhaps when it is coming out it still has pulse for a few moments and I have read in scriptures - I have studied ayurveda - that the pulse of the placenta provides very rich blood for a few moments after delivery and then the energetic essence of it makes the baby feel comfortable. That is why it is said that while the placenta is in the mother's womb the baby can be placed on the mom's tummy. She then delivers the placenta, and for a few moments they are left like that. Then the father is to look into his child's eyes in order for the child to understand that he has two parents who love him and is now part of a new world - a physical world and it is safe. The father then whispers the name of God in the child's ear and while looking into the child's eyes cuts the chord. This helps the child become spiritually attached to the father. I have seen this to be very important in the lives of our children. My husband did this for our son and he was the only one of our four children who would allow him to carry him as a baby. Our three other children were severed quickly by the doctor and they would only allow my husband to carry them at around a year. It is said that at that age the children start to lose memories of the womb and start to develop their independent identity. After the cord is cut the baby is made to lick ghee and honey. This is to be done for three days according to our scriptures. This may look silly and is actually forbidden in today's medical world because they same honey is toxic. But, it takes three days for the fatty milk to come into the mother's breast, only a thing yellow liquid comes out of the breast until then. This liquid is cleansing but lacks fat. So the ghee and honey is what supports the child nutritiously for those few days. It is not a new trend that the father should be with the mother, it is in our scriptures. Any one who criticizes that does not value the spiritual bond between mother, father and child. When all three are together at the moment of birth a beautiful bond is formed. When a women is left alone to labour and deliver with no known loved one - especially the one who knows her best and who is part of the child there is a lot of potential for trauma. The husband will really speak out for the rites of his wife because he does not want to see her suffer and this allows the woman to relax and focus on bringing the baby into the world. This is very sacred. I know that this is an astrology forum. I just think our Hindu scriptures are so beyond their time. I am always so impressed with the respect for life and the holistic nature of the scriptures and getting exited about these things. Sorry for going on. In conclusion I want to agree that the first breath determines birth. That was interesting. - jumanji1957 Wednesday, February 28, 2007 3:09 AM Re: RE:calculation of T.O.B/Placenta Dear Chandrashekhar Ji Sir, there is very little room for doubt. If a person is to be declared dead, when was it born?? If the baby does not breathe, medically the birth is declared as a gravid birth where death occurred during birth, or in the womb itself!!! Sir, I had the rare honor of attending a Doctor's conference where the subject of birth time was being discussed and this is what was declared as a unanimous decision. Logically it seems quite good, because the baby WILL breathe ONLY when it is deprived of oxygen from its mother) which comes through the Placenta and Umbilical Cord. I will welcome any other explanation that will define "Independent life" Dev Kumar , Chandrashekhar <chandrashekhar46 wrote: > > Dear Dev, > Your post is a bit confusing. Do you mean that if the umbilical cord is > cut the child is born alive even if it does not draw the first breath > and is declared born dead by the Doctors? > > I am sure you do not mean that just because hospitals record the time of > cutting of umbilical cord as time of birth, science of astrology should > treat it as the time of birth if the original parameters were different. > > Chandrashekhar. > > jumanji1957 wrote: > > > > Hello Everyone > > > > Allow me to add my two cents on this discussion. As long as the baby > > is attached to the mother through the Umbilical cord it receives > > oxygen from the mother and does not need to breathe. > > > > Time of birth technically is recorded when the umbilical cord is cut!! > > The baby thus deprived of live saving oxygen now needs to breathe to > > survive. > > > > In some cases where the baby does not start breathing, the attendant > > doctors and nurses pinch the baby to facilitate the natural process. > > If this fails, artificial resuscitation attempts are then initiated. > > > > If all attempts to revive the baby fails and the baby does not > > breathe, death is announced. > > > > So in Medical Technical terms, birth time is the one where independent > > life comes into existence on this planet. This happens only when the > > umbilical cord is cut!!! > > > > All major hospitals record cutting of Umbilical cord as birth time. > > However in cases where the staff is negligent or busy with the mother > > and the child they fail to note the time, hence discrepancies cannot > > be ruled out. > > > > Hope the concept is clear. Warm regards > > > > Dev Kumar > > > > > > <%40>, "vijayadas_pradeep" > > <vijayadas_pradeep@> wrote: > > > > > > Dear Chandrashekhar ji > > > > > > Thanks for the detailed reply covering numerous aspects. > > > Yes it is a practise,over here and perhaps a custom ? - Some > > > psychological/physiological reasons can as well be behind this. The > > > baby is handed over to the mother and she is asked to hold the baby > > > above and close to her abdomen.This then reduce the intensity of > > > crying(warmth and psychology).Thereafter the father is asked to cut > > > the cord. > > > > > > Personally i would also love to lean towards your view,as first > > > breath marks an independent act from the child,save for the below > > > concern. > > > > > > As per medical journals,Placenta does supply oygen apart from > > > nutrients to the baby through the cord(it has three vessels) and > > > hence the cord pulsates,even after birth.Also they say,amniotic sac > > > is part of the placenta membrane at the fetal side. > > > > > > As you have rightly mentioned,if one is waiting for couple of hours > > > before the cord is cut,then it makes no sense to astrology.But the > > > tricky part that comes to my mind is,when does the natural cessation > > > of pulsation happens ie the stop of oxygen supply.Some say within 10 > > > minutes.Once that happens,cutting makes no impact. > > > > > > The point i would love to probe is - when is the baby totally > > > independent.Even after the first cry,if there is a parallel > > > supply,then the baby is not totally independent.Cutting makes it.But > > > if one is prolonging the cut,the natural cessation time/point > > > happens in between in a silent fashion and goes unnoticed. > > > > > > If prana is anna or basic food that keeps us alive,then independent > > > existence or birth should have a a single input. > > > > > > All these depends on the divine/technical switch designed by the > > > Lord which transfers control.As you have rightly mentioned we need > > > to know atleast the basic physiological,functionalities with > > > authenticity,to comment further. > > > > > > Historical points that you have in mind may be shared,if it can help > > > to further our understanding.I totally agree with your point > > > that,mere cutting of the cord at any elected time does not make > > > sense. > > > > > > Respect > > > Pradeep > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <%40>, Chandrashekhar > > > <chandrashekhar46@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Dear Pradeep, > > > > > > > > I think in the western world these days it is becoming a practice > > > for > > > > fathers to be present or even assist at the time of delivery of > > > the > > > > mother. So that may be the reason that the doctor asked you to cut > > > the > > > > cord. I could not state anything about this. > > > > > > > > The practice of giving sweets and honey may be a means of > > > rewarding the > > > > midwife whose job it was in old days to help a lady deliver her > > > child. > > > > But I do not know where this custom is prevalent. As far as I > > > remember > > > > in the old days it was the custom to distribute sugar to the > > > > acquaintances when a child was born. > > > > > > > > I do not think placenta has anything to do with oxygen supply. It > > > is > > > > filled with blood and in case of carnivores provides immediate > > > > nourishment to the dam. Of course this is not the custom in human > > > beings > > > > and the herbivores though, if allowed to, the herbivores too tend > > > to eat > > > > the placenta. > > > > > > > > Remember that there is no fixed time when placenta must be cut > > > from the > > > > time of birth. One could wait, till a lagna changes, for cutting > > > of the > > > > cord and this would mean human being deciding the time of birth of > > > an > > > > individual. This would mean the very basis on which Jyotish > > > edifice > > > > stands will become faulty and purva karma and time of birth being > > > > decided because of that and one getting the horoscope based on his > > > purva > > > > Karma will stand demolished. I do not think that should be the > > > case. > > > > > > > > But as I said it might be better if a gynecologist on the group > > > explains > > > > the process of human birth and explain about timing of which > > > action can > > > > be controlled by human beings and which can not be so controlled > > > when a > > > > child is born so that this question is settled once and for all. > > > > > > > > There are also other reasons that I do not want to go into, and > > > they > > > > relate to the manner of birth recording in the times that the > > > shastra > > > > was written, that make me believe that the first intake of breath > > > > indicated by the cry of the baby to be the time of birth. I do not > > > want > > > > to enter into that discussion as one can always interpret > > > historical > > > > facts in different manner and that can only lead to more confusion. > > > > > > > > As I said this is my opinion and others may hold a different view > > > on the > > > > subject. > > > > > > > > Take care, > > > > Chandrashekhar. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > vijayadas_pradeep wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Dear Chandrashekhar ji > > > > > > > > > > You may have more authentic info regarding men folks and labour > > > room > > > > > regarding cutting of cord as compared to my knowledge got through > > > > > reading.I was curious on why the doctor had suggested to me to do > > > > > so,as i got a chance to be in the labour room,twice -both normal > > > > > deliveries. > > > > > > > > > > But somewhere under ceremonies ,it is written that,before > > > cutting of > > > > > the cord,father is supposed to give some sweet ,honey. > > > > > > > > > > The parallel oxygen supply that i had mentioned was the natural > > > one > > > > > coming through umblical cord from placenta and not an artificial > > > > > supply.How long is a question and it varies from case to case. > > > > > > > > > > Similar to circumstances which may interrupt or shift a planned > > > > > ceasarian section,time of birth can be elected only if the lord > > > > > wills,is my opinion,even with cutting of cord. > > > > > > > > > > Even though the placenta can seperate at the time of delivery ,it > > > > > may continue to supply nutrients and oxygen. > > > > > > > > > > As you know ,my queries are only educative in nature,so that > > > > > different views regarding the topic can be obtained,especially as > > > > > such a consideration is present in classics. > > > > > > > > > > Your expertise and experience with cattle is respected > > > > > > > > > > Regds > > > > > Pradeep > > > > > > > > > > -- In > > <%40> > > > > > <%40>, Chandrashekhar > > > > > <chandrashekhar46@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Pradeep, > > > > > > > > > > > > In ancient days, men folk were not allowed into the labor room > > > and > > > > > there > > > > > > was no question of father cutting the umbilical cord. Umbilical > > > > > cord is > > > > > > attached to placenta and the placenta and the baby can be away > > > > > from the > > > > > > mother even if the umbilical cord is not cut. Since the time of > > > > > cutting > > > > > > of the cord can be elected, if that is the criteria for birth > > > then > > > > > one > > > > > > can change the time of birth of a baby. I do not think that > > > vedic > > > > > > astrology assumes that a human being can change the time of > > > birth > > > > > of a baby. > > > > > > > > > > > > As to oxygen supply ( external) that is the case of organized > > > > > hospitals > > > > > > but many babies are born where no such provision is there and > > > even > > > > > in > > > > > > the hospitals the baby is held upside down its mucous removed > > > and > > > > > it is > > > > > > made to take first breath on its own. Only if there is a > > > problem, > > > > > use of > > > > > > artificial giving of oxygen is resorted to. Even here unless > > > the > > > > > baby is > > > > > > capable of drawing breath I doubt whether oxygen can be forced > > > in > > > > > the > > > > > > lungs. May be a medical professional would be better placed to > > > > > comment > > > > > > on this. > > > > > > > > > > > > Of course this is my personal opinion and others may hold a > > > > > different > > > > > > view on the subject. I had cattle and have bred dogs and know a > > > > > bit > > > > > > about the process of birth having assisted many of my animals > > > even > > > > > in > > > > > > breach presentation. > > > > > > > > > > > > Take care, > > > > > > Chandrashekhar. > > > > > > > > > > > > vijayadas_pradeep wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Chandrashekhar ji & Ramapriya ji > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks for the views.I see a vaild point in chandrashekhar > > > jis > > > > > view > > > > > > > regarding death and stop of breath. > > > > > > > At the same time i do see a point with cutting of umbilical > > > > > chord or > > > > > > > detachment from placenta,as well.As you know,umbilical chord > > > > > connects > > > > > > > the mother and baby through placenta. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thus cutting of umbilical chord naturally disconnetcs mother > > > and > > > > > > > baby.Even after delivery,cry and independent breath a > > > parallel > > > > > oxygen > > > > > > > supply is present until the link(chord) is broken. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Now breaking of sac does not stop link with mother,and hence > > > it > > > > > > > cannot point to a birth time. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It is a tough case and honestly,though i see a point in your > > > > > > > explanation,total independency of the baby not being effected > > > > > until > > > > > > > cutting of umbilical chord,is another point keeping my > > > curiousity > > > > > > > awake. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Also do you know why the father is supposed to cut the chord. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Respect > > > > > > > Pradeep > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <%40> > > > > > <%40> > > > > > > > <%40>, Chandrashekhar > > > > > > > <chandrashekhar46@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Pradeep, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I am sure the astrologer was referring t Phaldeepika which > > > does > > > > > > > mention > > > > > > > > that. However, since the breaking of placenta is > > > controlled by > > > > > > > human > > > > > > > > action and will, if that is accepted as the time of birth > > > then > > > > > the > > > > > > > whole > > > > > > > > basis about a soul getting birth at a time dictated by his > > > > > purva > > > > > > > karma > > > > > > > > may not stand the test of logic. Personally I have always > > > held > > > > > the > > > > > > > > opinion that it is the first cry of the baby indicative of > > > > > first > > > > > > > intake > > > > > > > > of breath and thus independent life should be considered > > > as the > > > > > > > time of > > > > > > > > birth. My logic is that if end of breath is death then > > > first > > > > > intake > > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > breath has to be life. There are other reasons for that > > > > > premise but > > > > > > > > discussing them all may not be necessary. Primarily we must > > > > > > > remember > > > > > > > > that it is the breath that is called Prana. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Chandrashekhar. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > vijayadas_pradeep wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear respected members > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I was fortunate to meet an elderly village > > > astrologer,some > > > > > time > > > > > > > > > back.His opinion was ,breaking or opening of placenta is > > > to > > > > > be > > > > > > > > > considered as the time of birth.He said he has shlokas to > > > > > support > > > > > > > > > his view. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Later on i had favourable thoughts towards his views.To > > > me > > > > > > > Placenta > > > > > > > > > is then acting like the shell of an egg and protecting > > > the > > > > > > > baby.When > > > > > > > > > it is broken,external influence effects. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Your learned views may be appreciated. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Regds > > > > > > > > > Pradeep > > > > > > > > > -- In > > <%40> > > > > > <%40> > > > > > > > <%40> > > > > > > > > > <%40>, "sreeram > > > srinivas" > > > > > > > > > <sreeram64@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Your question & analysis is right. But how do you know > > > > > that a > > > > > > > > > woman has > > > > > > > > > > conceived?? It is only after observing the menstrual > > > cycle > > > > > or > > > > > > > > > other > > > > > > > > > > related biological mechanism. The ancient rishis found > > > it > > > > > > > > > convenient that > > > > > > > > > > day of birth is more convincing and logical to record > > > and > > > > > hence, > > > > > > > > > taken as > > > > > > > > > > the basis. Analysing critically, one is confused > > > whether > > > > > to take > > > > > > > > > the time > > > > > > > > > > of birth or time of doctor cutting the umbilical cord > > > or > > > > > when > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > child is > > > > > > > > > > touched on the ground ( old customs)..etc.. As the time > > > > > > > variation > > > > > > > > > in such > > > > > > > > > > cases is only few minutes, it is immaterial difference. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Our astro_classics have combinations for > > > > > best "Garbadharan" and > > > > > > > > > not much > > > > > > > > > > research or case studies available on this, for the > > > simple > > > > > > > reason > > > > > > > > > that such > > > > > > > > > > discussions are too private or personal. Good > > > ettiquette > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > society > > > > > > > > > > norms does not allow to disclose or discuss this. > > > There is > > > > > good > > > > > > > > > amount of > > > > > > > > > > literature available on Garbadharan > > > subject....original and > > > > > > > > > > translated..........{ there are many other highly > > > qualified > > > > > > > > > members in this > > > > > > > > > > groups to advice you further !!) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If one analysis the ancient scriptures including our > > > > > mythology, > > > > > > > > > the muhurta > > > > > > > > > > of an event is given more importance than individual > > > > > horoscope. > > > > > > > > > Every > > > > > > > > > > muhurta has a name ascribed to it and some predictions > > > > > related > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > it ( > > > > > > > > > > without even considering the planetary positions ), > > > this > > > > > is done > > > > > > > > > based on > > > > > > > > > > the "amsa" calculations. Some of this ancient science > > > is > > > > > lost > > > > > > > > > and very > > > > > > > > > > very few people know it, atleast to my knowledge do not > > > > > know if > > > > > > > > > any of the > > > > > > > > > > existing astro_classics even mention it properly i.e. > > > > > literature > > > > > > > > > on this is > > > > > > > > > > NOT available. Most of our mythologies denote or > > > reflect > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > importance of > > > > > > > > > > muhurta ( read nakshatra based muhurtas) rather than > > > > > planetary > > > > > > > > > based > > > > > > > > > > muhurtas which came much much later. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It is said that the time/event of Lord Ravan kidnapping > > > > > Goddess > > > > > > > > > Sita, was > > > > > > > > > > called something "Vinda", a result of which was > > > > > destruction or > > > > > > > > > end of Lord > > > > > > > > > > Ravan. The coronation of Lord Rama as King of Ayodhya, > > > the > > > > > > > > > muhurta was > > > > > > > > > > determined by our great brahma rishi Vasisth, ( can he > > > > > > > > > wrong ?? ). Brood > > > > > > > > > > over this and you will get a new revelation or > > > > > understanding of > > > > > > > > > astrology > > > > > > > > > > timing....... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Adding to your mental inquisitiveness, the original > > > timing > > > > > of > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > great > > > > > > > > > > epic war i.e. Mahabharat, was fixed, however, the Lord > > > > > Krishna > > > > > > > > > preponed the > > > > > > > > > > timing by couple of hours, by raising the clarion conch > > > > > > > > > call.....of war !!! > > > > > > > > > > Well in Mahabharat there are few knowledgeable astros > > > > > including > > > > > > > > > Great > > > > > > > > > > Bhishma, Daring Duryodhan, Guru Dronacharya, Dhaan Vir > > > > > Karna, > > > > > > > > > Chief > > > > > > > > > > Justice Yudishthira, Rewarded Naku & Sakadev, Lord > > > > > > > > > Krishna....etc.. If > > > > > > > > > > you read the original sanskrit translation of > > > Mahabharat { > > > > > > > surely > > > > > > > > > NOT those > > > > > > > > > > Amar Chitra kathas} there is an interesting discussion > > > > > between > > > > > > > > > Great > > > > > > > > > > Bhishma, Guru Dronnacharya, Daring Duryodhan on the > > > issue > > > > > of > > > > > > > > > completion of > > > > > > > > > > the 12+1 years of exile of Pandavas. This controversy > > > > > still goes > > > > > > > > > i.e. 360 > > > > > > > > > > or 365 days in an annual year....etc.. > > > > > > > > > > Coming back to Mahabharat the place and location of the > > > > > war was > > > > > > > > > also > > > > > > > > > > predetermined intelligently by Sri Lord Krishna i.e. > > > > > Kurushetra > > > > > > > > > for certain > > > > > > > > > > genuine reasons....one of reasons being that the SOIL > > > > > there at > > > > > > > > > Kurushetra > > > > > > > > > > favors NONE or it is NEUTRAL. There are few very > > > > > interesting > > > > > > > > > astro_cryptic > > > > > > > > > > clues here for an interested student of > > > > > astrology.......left to > > > > > > > > > each one's > > > > > > > > > > imagination to decipher the same...... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Digressing from the issue for a while as we have > > > touched > > > > > few > > > > > > > > > things on > > > > > > > > > > mythology, just wanted to add few more lines....though > > > > > learned > > > > > > > > > Brahma Rishi > > > > > > > > > > Vasisht happens to be the Kulguru or Chief adviser of > > > Lord > > > > > Ram's > > > > > > > > > family, but > > > > > > > > > > he choose Brahma Rishi Vishwamitra to train Lord Ram & > > > > > brothers > > > > > > > in > > > > > > > > > the field > > > > > > > > > > of Weapons i.e. missiles or art of war........and > > > > > > > technique...... > > > > > > > > > { read > > > > > > > > > > between the lines - the original translations - great > > > > > > > > > astro_message is > > > > > > > > > > involved here } > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Some of the finest translations are available in > > > telugu, > > > > > but due > > > > > > > > > to modern > > > > > > > > > > education stress in English or Hinglish, tracing those > > > good > > > > > > > books > > > > > > > > > would be > > > > > > > > > > daunting task for it is written in poetry form in > > > Telugu. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > with regards, > > > > > > > > > > sreeram srinivas > > > > > > > > > > sreeram64@ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <%40> > > > > > <%40> > > > > > > > <%40> > > > > > > > > > <%40> > > > > > > > > > > [ > > <%40> > > > > > <%40> > > > > > > > <%40> > > > > > > > > > <%40>] On Behalf Of > > > > > GYATHRI > > > > > > > > > PATANJOTHI > > > > > > > > > > Sunday, February 18, 2007 12:57 PM > > > > > > > > > > jyotish remedies > > > > > > > > > > calculation of T.O.B > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Astrologers, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I have been thinking about our time fo birth which is > > > an > > > > > > > essential > > > > > > > > > element > > > > > > > > > > in our astrological chart, but is it wrong for me to > > > > > believe > > > > > > > that > > > > > > > > > there is a > > > > > > > > > > more accurate time, we should be looking into, because > > > > > life was > > > > > > > > > given once > > > > > > > > > > our mom conceive so is it wrong for me to believe that > > > the > > > > > time > > > > > > > we > > > > > > > > > were > > > > > > > > > > conceived could be the time that we should all be > > > looking > > > > > into. > > > > > > > > > > For example, if i am born on the 25th Nov so i might be > > > > > > > conceived > > > > > > > > > on the > > > > > > > > > > month of Feb assuming it is an exact 9 months delivery > > > > > without > > > > > > > > > premature. > > > > > > > > > > According to other sources too, that babies in the womb > > > > > would > > > > > > > have > > > > > > > > > their > > > > > > > > > > first hearbeat after 4 months. > > > > > > > > > > Since life starts in the mothers womb we have been > > > living > > > > > long > > > > > > > > > before we > > > > > > > > > > step into the tangible world.Hence I really need some > > > > > > > > > clarification of a > > > > > > > > > > valid justification of calculating our lifechart based > > > on > > > > > the > > > > > > > time > > > > > > > > > of birth. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > > > Gyathri > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------- > > > > > > > > Version: 7.5.430 / Virus Database: 268.18.4/702 - Release Date: 2/25/2007 3:16 PM > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 28, 2007 Report Share Posted February 28, 2007 On 2/27/07, jumanji1957 <jumanji1957 > wrote: > > > So in Medical Technical terms, birth time is the one where independent > life comes into existence on this planet. This happens only when the > umbilical cord is cut!!! Dear Sri Dev, Ever heard of Lotus Birth? Cheers, Ramapriya Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 28, 2007 Report Share Posted February 28, 2007 Dear Chandrashekhar Ji Sir, there is very little room for doubt. If a person is to be declared dead, when was it born?? If the baby does not breathe, medically the birth is declared as a gravid birth where death occurred during birth, or in the womb itself!!! Sir, I had the rare honor of attending a Doctor's conference where the subject of birth time was being discussed and this is what was declared as a unanimous decision. Logically it seems quite good, because the baby WILL breathe ONLY when it is deprived of oxygen from its mother) which comes through the Placenta and Umbilical Cord. I will welcome any other explanation that will define "Independent life" Dev Kumar , Chandrashekhar <chandrashekhar46 wrote: > > Dear Dev, > Your post is a bit confusing. Do you mean that if the umbilical cord is > cut the child is born alive even if it does not draw the first breath > and is declared born dead by the Doctors? > > I am sure you do not mean that just because hospitals record the time of > cutting of umbilical cord as time of birth, science of astrology should > treat it as the time of birth if the original parameters were different. > > Chandrashekhar. > > jumanji1957 wrote: > > > > Hello Everyone > > > > Allow me to add my two cents on this discussion. As long as the baby > > is attached to the mother through the Umbilical cord it receives > > oxygen from the mother and does not need to breathe. > > > > Time of birth technically is recorded when the umbilical cord is cut!! > > The baby thus deprived of live saving oxygen now needs to breathe to > > survive. > > > > In some cases where the baby does not start breathing, the attendant > > doctors and nurses pinch the baby to facilitate the natural process. > > If this fails, artificial resuscitation attempts are then initiated. > > > > If all attempts to revive the baby fails and the baby does not > > breathe, death is announced. > > > > So in Medical Technical terms, birth time is the one where independent > > life comes into existence on this planet. This happens only when the > > umbilical cord is cut!!! > > > > All major hospitals record cutting of Umbilical cord as birth time. > > However in cases where the staff is negligent or busy with the mother > > and the child they fail to note the time, hence discrepancies cannot > > be ruled out. > > > > Hope the concept is clear. Warm regards > > > > Dev Kumar > > > > > > <%40>, "vijayadas_pradeep" > > <vijayadas_pradeep@> wrote: > > > > > > Dear Chandrashekhar ji > > > > > > Thanks for the detailed reply covering numerous aspects. > > > Yes it is a practise,over here and perhaps a custom ? - Some > > > psychological/physiological reasons can as well be behind this. The > > > baby is handed over to the mother and she is asked to hold the baby > > > above and close to her abdomen.This then reduce the intensity of > > > crying(warmth and psychology).Thereafter the father is asked to cut > > > the cord. > > > > > > Personally i would also love to lean towards your view,as first > > > breath marks an independent act from the child,save for the below > > > concern. > > > > > > As per medical journals,Placenta does supply oygen apart from > > > nutrients to the baby through the cord(it has three vessels) and > > > hence the cord pulsates,even after birth.Also they say,amniotic sac > > > is part of the placenta membrane at the fetal side. > > > > > > As you have rightly mentioned,if one is waiting for couple of hours > > > before the cord is cut,then it makes no sense to astrology.But the > > > tricky part that comes to my mind is,when does the natural cessation > > > of pulsation happens ie the stop of oxygen supply.Some say within 10 > > > minutes.Once that happens,cutting makes no impact. > > > > > > The point i would love to probe is - when is the baby totally > > > independent.Even after the first cry,if there is a parallel > > > supply,then the baby is not totally independent.Cutting makes it.But > > > if one is prolonging the cut,the natural cessation time/point > > > happens in between in a silent fashion and goes unnoticed. > > > > > > If prana is anna or basic food that keeps us alive,then independent > > > existence or birth should have a a single input. > > > > > > All these depends on the divine/technical switch designed by the > > > Lord which transfers control.As you have rightly mentioned we need > > > to know atleast the basic physiological,functionalities with > > > authenticity,to comment further. > > > > > > Historical points that you have in mind may be shared,if it can help > > > to further our understanding.I totally agree with your point > > > that,mere cutting of the cord at any elected time does not make > > > sense. > > > > > > Respect > > > Pradeep > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <%40>, Chandrashekhar > > > <chandrashekhar46@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Dear Pradeep, > > > > > > > > I think in the western world these days it is becoming a practice > > > for > > > > fathers to be present or even assist at the time of delivery of > > > the > > > > mother. So that may be the reason that the doctor asked you to cut > > > the > > > > cord. I could not state anything about this. > > > > > > > > The practice of giving sweets and honey may be a means of > > > rewarding the > > > > midwife whose job it was in old days to help a lady deliver her > > > child. > > > > But I do not know where this custom is prevalent. As far as I > > > remember > > > > in the old days it was the custom to distribute sugar to the > > > > acquaintances when a child was born. > > > > > > > > I do not think placenta has anything to do with oxygen supply. It > > > is > > > > filled with blood and in case of carnivores provides immediate > > > > nourishment to the dam. Of course this is not the custom in human > > > beings > > > > and the herbivores though, if allowed to, the herbivores too tend > > > to eat > > > > the placenta. > > > > > > > > Remember that there is no fixed time when placenta must be cut > > > from the > > > > time of birth. One could wait, till a lagna changes, for cutting > > > of the > > > > cord and this would mean human being deciding the time of birth of > > > an > > > > individual. This would mean the very basis on which Jyotish > > > edifice > > > > stands will become faulty and purva karma and time of birth being > > > > decided because of that and one getting the horoscope based on his > > > purva > > > > Karma will stand demolished. I do not think that should be the > > > case. > > > > > > > > But as I said it might be better if a gynecologist on the group > > > explains > > > > the process of human birth and explain about timing of which > > > action can > > > > be controlled by human beings and which can not be so controlled > > > when a > > > > child is born so that this question is settled once and for all. > > > > > > > > There are also other reasons that I do not want to go into, and > > > they > > > > relate to the manner of birth recording in the times that the > > > shastra > > > > was written, that make me believe that the first intake of breath > > > > indicated by the cry of the baby to be the time of birth. I do not > > > want > > > > to enter into that discussion as one can always interpret > > > historical > > > > facts in different manner and that can only lead to more confusion. > > > > > > > > As I said this is my opinion and others may hold a different view > > > on the > > > > subject. > > > > > > > > Take care, > > > > Chandrashekhar. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > vijayadas_pradeep wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Dear Chandrashekhar ji > > > > > > > > > > You may have more authentic info regarding men folks and labour > > > room > > > > > regarding cutting of cord as compared to my knowledge got through > > > > > reading.I was curious on why the doctor had suggested to me to do > > > > > so,as i got a chance to be in the labour room,twice -both normal > > > > > deliveries. > > > > > > > > > > But somewhere under ceremonies ,it is written that,before > > > cutting of > > > > > the cord,father is supposed to give some sweet ,honey. > > > > > > > > > > The parallel oxygen supply that i had mentioned was the natural > > > one > > > > > coming through umblical cord from placenta and not an artificial > > > > > supply.How long is a question and it varies from case to case. > > > > > > > > > > Similar to circumstances which may interrupt or shift a planned > > > > > ceasarian section,time of birth can be elected only if the lord > > > > > wills,is my opinion,even with cutting of cord. > > > > > > > > > > Even though the placenta can seperate at the time of delivery ,it > > > > > may continue to supply nutrients and oxygen. > > > > > > > > > > As you know ,my queries are only educative in nature,so that > > > > > different views regarding the topic can be obtained,especially as > > > > > such a consideration is present in classics. > > > > > > > > > > Your expertise and experience with cattle is respected > > > > > > > > > > Regds > > > > > Pradeep > > > > > > > > > > -- In > > <%40> > > > > > <%40>, Chandrashekhar > > > > > <chandrashekhar46@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Pradeep, > > > > > > > > > > > > In ancient days, men folk were not allowed into the labor room > > > and > > > > > there > > > > > > was no question of father cutting the umbilical cord. Umbilical > > > > > cord is > > > > > > attached to placenta and the placenta and the baby can be away > > > > > from the > > > > > > mother even if the umbilical cord is not cut. Since the time of > > > > > cutting > > > > > > of the cord can be elected, if that is the criteria for birth > > > then > > > > > one > > > > > > can change the time of birth of a baby. I do not think that > > > vedic > > > > > > astrology assumes that a human being can change the time of > > > birth > > > > > of a baby. > > > > > > > > > > > > As to oxygen supply ( external) that is the case of organized > > > > > hospitals > > > > > > but many babies are born where no such provision is there and > > > even > > > > > in > > > > > > the hospitals the baby is held upside down its mucous removed > > > and > > > > > it is > > > > > > made to take first breath on its own. Only if there is a > > > problem, > > > > > use of > > > > > > artificial giving of oxygen is resorted to. Even here unless > > > the > > > > > baby is > > > > > > capable of drawing breath I doubt whether oxygen can be forced > > > in > > > > > the > > > > > > lungs. May be a medical professional would be better placed to > > > > > comment > > > > > > on this. > > > > > > > > > > > > Of course this is my personal opinion and others may hold a > > > > > different > > > > > > view on the subject. I had cattle and have bred dogs and know a > > > > > bit > > > > > > about the process of birth having assisted many of my animals > > > even > > > > > in > > > > > > breach presentation. > > > > > > > > > > > > Take care, > > > > > > Chandrashekhar. > > > > > > > > > > > > vijayadas_pradeep wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Chandrashekhar ji & Ramapriya ji > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks for the views.I see a vaild point in chandrashekhar > > > jis > > > > > view > > > > > > > regarding death and stop of breath. > > > > > > > At the same time i do see a point with cutting of umbilical > > > > > chord or > > > > > > > detachment from placenta,as well.As you know,umbilical chord > > > > > connects > > > > > > > the mother and baby through placenta. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thus cutting of umbilical chord naturally disconnetcs mother > > > and > > > > > > > baby.Even after delivery,cry and independent breath a > > > parallel > > > > > oxygen > > > > > > > supply is present until the link(chord) is broken. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Now breaking of sac does not stop link with mother,and hence > > > it > > > > > > > cannot point to a birth time. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It is a tough case and honestly,though i see a point in your > > > > > > > explanation,total independency of the baby not being effected > > > > > until > > > > > > > cutting of umbilical chord,is another point keeping my > > > curiousity > > > > > > > awake. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Also do you know why the father is supposed to cut the chord. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Respect > > > > > > > Pradeep > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <%40> > > > > > <%40> > > > > > > > <%40>, Chandrashekhar > > > > > > > <chandrashekhar46@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Pradeep, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I am sure the astrologer was referring t Phaldeepika which > > > does > > > > > > > mention > > > > > > > > that. However, since the breaking of placenta is > > > controlled by > > > > > > > human > > > > > > > > action and will, if that is accepted as the time of birth > > > then > > > > > the > > > > > > > whole > > > > > > > > basis about a soul getting birth at a time dictated by his > > > > > purva > > > > > > > karma > > > > > > > > may not stand the test of logic. Personally I have always > > > held > > > > > the > > > > > > > > opinion that it is the first cry of the baby indicative of > > > > > first > > > > > > > intake > > > > > > > > of breath and thus independent life should be considered > > > as the > > > > > > > time of > > > > > > > > birth. My logic is that if end of breath is death then > > > first > > > > > intake > > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > breath has to be life. There are other reasons for that > > > > > premise but > > > > > > > > discussing them all may not be necessary. Primarily we must > > > > > > > remember > > > > > > > > that it is the breath that is called Prana. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Chandrashekhar. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > vijayadas_pradeep wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear respected members > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I was fortunate to meet an elderly village > > > astrologer,some > > > > > time > > > > > > > > > back.His opinion was ,breaking or opening of placenta is > > > to > > > > > be > > > > > > > > > considered as the time of birth.He said he has shlokas to > > > > > support > > > > > > > > > his view. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Later on i had favourable thoughts towards his views.To > > > me > > > > > > > Placenta > > > > > > > > > is then acting like the shell of an egg and protecting > > > the > > > > > > > baby.When > > > > > > > > > it is broken,external influence effects. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Your learned views may be appreciated. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Regds > > > > > > > > > Pradeep > > > > > > > > > -- In > > <%40> > > > > > <%40> > > > > > > > <%40> > > > > > > > > > <%40>, "sreeram > > > srinivas" > > > > > > > > > <sreeram64@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Your question & analysis is right. But how do you know > > > > > that a > > > > > > > > > woman has > > > > > > > > > > conceived?? It is only after observing the menstrual > > > cycle > > > > > or > > > > > > > > > other > > > > > > > > > > related biological mechanism. The ancient rishis found > > > it > > > > > > > > > convenient that > > > > > > > > > > day of birth is more convincing and logical to record > > > and > > > > > hence, > > > > > > > > > taken as > > > > > > > > > > the basis. Analysing critically, one is confused > > > whether > > > > > to take > > > > > > > > > the time > > > > > > > > > > of birth or time of doctor cutting the umbilical cord > > > or > > > > > when > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > child is > > > > > > > > > > touched on the ground ( old customs)..etc.. As the time > > > > > > > variation > > > > > > > > > in such > > > > > > > > > > cases is only few minutes, it is immaterial difference. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Our astro_classics have combinations for > > > > > best "Garbadharan" and > > > > > > > > > not much > > > > > > > > > > research or case studies available on this, for the > > > simple > > > > > > > reason > > > > > > > > > that such > > > > > > > > > > discussions are too private or personal. Good > > > ettiquette > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > society > > > > > > > > > > norms does not allow to disclose or discuss this. > > > There is > > > > > good > > > > > > > > > amount of > > > > > > > > > > literature available on Garbadharan > > > subject....original and > > > > > > > > > > translated..........{ there are many other highly > > > qualified > > > > > > > > > members in this > > > > > > > > > > groups to advice you further !!) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If one analysis the ancient scriptures including our > > > > > mythology, > > > > > > > > > the muhurta > > > > > > > > > > of an event is given more importance than individual > > > > > horoscope. > > > > > > > > > Every > > > > > > > > > > muhurta has a name ascribed to it and some predictions > > > > > related > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > it ( > > > > > > > > > > without even considering the planetary positions ), > > > this > > > > > is done > > > > > > > > > based on > > > > > > > > > > the "amsa" calculations. Some of this ancient science > > > is > > > > > lost > > > > > > > > > and very > > > > > > > > > > very few people know it, atleast to my knowledge do not > > > > > know if > > > > > > > > > any of the > > > > > > > > > > existing astro_classics even mention it properly i.e. > > > > > literature > > > > > > > > > on this is > > > > > > > > > > NOT available. Most of our mythologies denote or > > > reflect > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > importance of > > > > > > > > > > muhurta ( read nakshatra based muhurtas) rather than > > > > > planetary > > > > > > > > > based > > > > > > > > > > muhurtas which came much much later. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It is said that the time/event of Lord Ravan kidnapping > > > > > Goddess > > > > > > > > > Sita, was > > > > > > > > > > called something "Vinda", a result of which was > > > > > destruction or > > > > > > > > > end of Lord > > > > > > > > > > Ravan. The coronation of Lord Rama as King of Ayodhya, > > > the > > > > > > > > > muhurta was > > > > > > > > > > determined by our great brahma rishi Vasisth, ( can he > > > > > > > > > wrong ?? ). Brood > > > > > > > > > > over this and you will get a new revelation or > > > > > understanding of > > > > > > > > > astrology > > > > > > > > > > timing....... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Adding to your mental inquisitiveness, the original > > > timing > > > > > of > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > great > > > > > > > > > > epic war i.e. Mahabharat, was fixed, however, the Lord > > > > > Krishna > > > > > > > > > preponed the > > > > > > > > > > timing by couple of hours, by raising the clarion conch > > > > > > > > > call.....of war !!! > > > > > > > > > > Well in Mahabharat there are few knowledgeable astros > > > > > including > > > > > > > > > Great > > > > > > > > > > Bhishma, Daring Duryodhan, Guru Dronacharya, Dhaan Vir > > > > > Karna, > > > > > > > > > Chief > > > > > > > > > > Justice Yudishthira, Rewarded Naku & Sakadev, Lord > > > > > > > > > Krishna....etc.. If > > > > > > > > > > you read the original sanskrit translation of > > > Mahabharat { > > > > > > > surely > > > > > > > > > NOT those > > > > > > > > > > Amar Chitra kathas} there is an interesting discussion > > > > > between > > > > > > > > > Great > > > > > > > > > > Bhishma, Guru Dronnacharya, Daring Duryodhan on the > > > issue > > > > > of > > > > > > > > > completion of > > > > > > > > > > the 12+1 years of exile of Pandavas. This controversy > > > > > still goes > > > > > > > > > i.e. 360 > > > > > > > > > > or 365 days in an annual year....etc.. > > > > > > > > > > Coming back to Mahabharat the place and location of the > > > > > war was > > > > > > > > > also > > > > > > > > > > predetermined intelligently by Sri Lord Krishna i.e. > > > > > Kurushetra > > > > > > > > > for certain > > > > > > > > > > genuine reasons....one of reasons being that the SOIL > > > > > there at > > > > > > > > > Kurushetra > > > > > > > > > > favors NONE or it is NEUTRAL. There are few very > > > > > interesting > > > > > > > > > astro_cryptic > > > > > > > > > > clues here for an interested student of > > > > > astrology.......left to > > > > > > > > > each one's > > > > > > > > > > imagination to decipher the same...... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Digressing from the issue for a while as we have > > > touched > > > > > few > > > > > > > > > things on > > > > > > > > > > mythology, just wanted to add few more lines....though > > > > > learned > > > > > > > > > Brahma Rishi > > > > > > > > > > Vasisht happens to be the Kulguru or Chief adviser of > > > Lord > > > > > Ram's > > > > > > > > > family, but > > > > > > > > > > he choose Brahma Rishi Vishwamitra to train Lord Ram & > > > > > brothers > > > > > > > in > > > > > > > > > the field > > > > > > > > > > of Weapons i.e. missiles or art of war........and > > > > > > > technique...... > > > > > > > > > { read > > > > > > > > > > between the lines - the original translations - great > > > > > > > > > astro_message is > > > > > > > > > > involved here } > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Some of the finest translations are available in > > > telugu, > > > > > but due > > > > > > > > > to modern > > > > > > > > > > education stress in English or Hinglish, tracing those > > > good > > > > > > > books > > > > > > > > > would be > > > > > > > > > > daunting task for it is written in poetry form in > > > Telugu. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > with regards, > > > > > > > > > > sreeram srinivas > > > > > > > > > > sreeram64@ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <%40> > > > > > <%40> > > > > > > > <%40> > > > > > > > > > <%40> > > > > > > > > > > [ > > <%40> > > > > > <%40> > > > > > > > <%40> > > > > > > > > > <%40>] On Behalf Of > > > > > GYATHRI > > > > > > > > > PATANJOTHI > > > > > > > > > > Sunday, February 18, 2007 12:57 PM > > > > > > > > > > jyotish remedies > > > > > > > > > > calculation of T.O.B > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Astrologers, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I have been thinking about our time fo birth which is > > > an > > > > > > > essential > > > > > > > > > element > > > > > > > > > > in our astrological chart, but is it wrong for me to > > > > > believe > > > > > > > that > > > > > > > > > there is a > > > > > > > > > > more accurate time, we should be looking into, because > > > > > life was > > > > > > > > > given once > > > > > > > > > > our mom conceive so is it wrong for me to believe that > > > the > > > > > time > > > > > > > we > > > > > > > > > were > > > > > > > > > > conceived could be the time that we should all be > > > looking > > > > > into. > > > > > > > > > > For example, if i am born on the 25th Nov so i might be > > > > > > > conceived > > > > > > > > > on the > > > > > > > > > > month of Feb assuming it is an exact 9 months delivery > > > > > without > > > > > > > > > premature. > > > > > > > > > > According to other sources too, that babies in the womb > > > > > would > > > > > > > have > > > > > > > > > their > > > > > > > > > > first hearbeat after 4 months. > > > > > > > > > > Since life starts in the mothers womb we have been > > > living > > > > > long > > > > > > > > > before we > > > > > > > > > > step into the tangible world.Hence I really need some > > > > > > > > > clarification of a > > > > > > > > > > valid justification of calculating our lifechart based > > > on > > > > > the > > > > > > > time > > > > > > > > > of birth. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > > > Gyathri > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------ > > > > > > > > Version: 7.5.430 / Virus Database: 268.18.4/702 - Release Date: 2/25/2007 3:16 PM > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 28, 2007 Report Share Posted February 28, 2007 Dear Ramapriya Ji Yes, I have heard about Lotus Birth, where the Placenta and the Umbilical Cord is left attached with the baby after delivery. Whether you cut the Umbilical Cord or wait for the Placenta to come out, the Baby will breathe ONLY when it is deprived of oxygen it receives from its mother. Lotus Birth is by all means a gross violation of the safety of the child and medical ethics. An infection can be easily transmitted to the otherwise healthy baby. Please visit http://www.lotusbirth.com/ for a review of this subject. I am sure unethical practice is not recognized by Astrologers too. I am equally sure that there could exist more interesting cases of Birthing a child, obviously these are not popular means of Birthing Practice. Coming back to the logic of Independent life, detachment of the Placenta from the mother in cases of Lotus birth can be taken as Birth time, since it fulfills the need to cut-off oxygen from the mother to the baby!! The logic remains intact. Warm Regards Dev Kumar , "D Ramapriya" <ramapriya.d wrote: > > On 2/27/07, jumanji1957 <jumanji1957 wrote: > > > > > > So in Medical Technical terms, birth time is the one where independent > > life comes into existence on this planet. This happens only when the > > umbilical cord is cut!!! > > > Dear Sri Dev, > > Ever heard of Lotus Birth? > > Cheers, > > Ramapriya > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 28, 2007 Report Share Posted February 28, 2007 Dear Dev, I think there is something wrong in understanding what the Doctors must have said. It is perfectly possible for a child to breath even if the placenta is attached or if the umbilical cord is not severed. Chandrashekhar. jumanji1957 wrote: > > Dear Chandrashekhar Ji > > Sir, there is very little room for doubt. If a person is to be > declared dead, when was it born?? > > If the baby does not breathe, medically the birth is declared as a > gravid birth where death occurred during birth, or in the womb itself!!! > > Sir, I had the rare honor of attending a Doctor's conference where the > subject of birth time was being discussed and this is what was > declared as a unanimous decision. > > Logically it seems quite good, because the baby WILL breathe ONLY when > it is deprived of oxygen from its mother) which comes through the > Placenta and Umbilical Cord. > > I will welcome any other explanation that will define "Independent life" > > Dev Kumar > > > <%40>, Chandrashekhar > <chandrashekhar46 wrote: > > > > Dear Dev, > > Your post is a bit confusing. Do you mean that if the umbilical cord is > > cut the child is born alive even if it does not draw the first breath > > and is declared born dead by the Doctors? > > > > I am sure you do not mean that just because hospitals record the > time of > > cutting of umbilical cord as time of birth, science of astrology should > > treat it as the time of birth if the original parameters were different. > > > > Chandrashekhar. > > > > jumanji1957 wrote: > > > > > > Hello Everyone > > > > > > Allow me to add my two cents on this discussion. As long as the baby > > > is attached to the mother through the Umbilical cord it receives > > > oxygen from the mother and does not need to breathe. > > > > > > Time of birth technically is recorded when the umbilical cord is cut!! > > > The baby thus deprived of live saving oxygen now needs to breathe to > > > survive. > > > > > > In some cases where the baby does not start breathing, the attendant > > > doctors and nurses pinch the baby to facilitate the natural process. > > > If this fails, artificial resuscitation attempts are then initiated. > > > > > > If all attempts to revive the baby fails and the baby does not > > > breathe, death is announced. > > > > > > So in Medical Technical terms, birth time is the one where independent > > > life comes into existence on this planet. This happens only when the > > > umbilical cord is cut!!! > > > > > > All major hospitals record cutting of Umbilical cord as birth time. > > > However in cases where the staff is negligent or busy with the mother > > > and the child they fail to note the time, hence discrepancies cannot > > > be ruled out. > > > > > > Hope the concept is clear. Warm regards > > > > > > Dev Kumar > > > > > > > <%40> > > > <%40>, "vijayadas_pradeep" > > > <vijayadas_pradeep@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Dear Chandrashekhar ji > > > > > > > > Thanks for the detailed reply covering numerous aspects. > > > > Yes it is a practise,over here and perhaps a custom ? - Some > > > > psychological/physiological reasons can as well be behind this. The > > > > baby is handed over to the mother and she is asked to hold the baby > > > > above and close to her abdomen.This then reduce the intensity of > > > > crying(warmth and psychology).Thereafter the father is asked to cut > > > > the cord. > > > > > > > > Personally i would also love to lean towards your view,as first > > > > breath marks an independent act from the child,save for the below > > > > concern. > > > > > > > > As per medical journals,Placenta does supply oygen apart from > > > > nutrients to the baby through the cord(it has three vessels) and > > > > hence the cord pulsates,even after birth.Also they say,amniotic sac > > > > is part of the placenta membrane at the fetal side. > > > > > > > > As you have rightly mentioned,if one is waiting for couple of hours > > > > before the cord is cut,then it makes no sense to astrology.But the > > > > tricky part that comes to my mind is,when does the natural cessation > > > > of pulsation happens ie the stop of oxygen supply.Some say within 10 > > > > minutes.Once that happens,cutting makes no impact. > > > > > > > > The point i would love to probe is - when is the baby totally > > > > independent.Even after the first cry,if there is a parallel > > > > supply,then the baby is not totally independent.Cutting makes it.But > > > > if one is prolonging the cut,the natural cessation time/point > > > > happens in between in a silent fashion and goes unnoticed. > > > > > > > > If prana is anna or basic food that keeps us alive,then independent > > > > existence or birth should have a a single input. > > > > > > > > All these depends on the divine/technical switch designed by the > > > > Lord which transfers control.As you have rightly mentioned we need > > > > to know atleast the basic physiological,functionalities with > > > > authenticity,to comment further. > > > > > > > > Historical points that you have in mind may be shared,if it can help > > > > to further our understanding.I totally agree with your point > > > > that,mere cutting of the cord at any elected time does not make > > > > sense. > > > > > > > > Respect > > > > Pradeep > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <%40> > > > <%40>, Chandrashekhar > > > > <chandrashekhar46@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Dear Pradeep, > > > > > > > > > > I think in the western world these days it is becoming a practice > > > > for > > > > > fathers to be present or even assist at the time of delivery of > > > > the > > > > > mother. So that may be the reason that the doctor asked you to cut > > > > the > > > > > cord. I could not state anything about this. > > > > > > > > > > The practice of giving sweets and honey may be a means of > > > > rewarding the > > > > > midwife whose job it was in old days to help a lady deliver her > > > > child. > > > > > But I do not know where this custom is prevalent. As far as I > > > > remember > > > > > in the old days it was the custom to distribute sugar to the > > > > > acquaintances when a child was born. > > > > > > > > > > I do not think placenta has anything to do with oxygen supply. It > > > > is > > > > > filled with blood and in case of carnivores provides immediate > > > > > nourishment to the dam. Of course this is not the custom in human > > > > beings > > > > > and the herbivores though, if allowed to, the herbivores too tend > > > > to eat > > > > > the placenta. > > > > > > > > > > Remember that there is no fixed time when placenta must be cut > > > > from the > > > > > time of birth. One could wait, till a lagna changes, for cutting > > > > of the > > > > > cord and this would mean human being deciding the time of birth of > > > > an > > > > > individual. This would mean the very basis on which Jyotish > > > > edifice > > > > > stands will become faulty and purva karma and time of birth being > > > > > decided because of that and one getting the horoscope based on his > > > > purva > > > > > Karma will stand demolished. I do not think that should be the > > > > case. > > > > > > > > > > But as I said it might be better if a gynecologist on the group > > > > explains > > > > > the process of human birth and explain about timing of which > > > > action can > > > > > be controlled by human beings and which can not be so controlled > > > > when a > > > > > child is born so that this question is settled once and for all. > > > > > > > > > > There are also other reasons that I do not want to go into, and > > > > they > > > > > relate to the manner of birth recording in the times that the > > > > shastra > > > > > was written, that make me believe that the first intake of breath > > > > > indicated by the cry of the baby to be the time of birth. I do not > > > > want > > > > > to enter into that discussion as one can always interpret > > > > historical > > > > > facts in different manner and that can only lead to more > confusion. > > > > > > > > > > As I said this is my opinion and others may hold a different view > > > > on the > > > > > subject. > > > > > > > > > > Take care, > > > > > Chandrashekhar. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > vijayadas_pradeep wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Chandrashekhar ji > > > > > > > > > > > > You may have more authentic info regarding men folks and labour > > > > room > > > > > > regarding cutting of cord as compared to my knowledge got > through > > > > > > reading.I was curious on why the doctor had suggested to me > to do > > > > > > so,as i got a chance to be in the labour room,twice -both normal > > > > > > deliveries. > > > > > > > > > > > > But somewhere under ceremonies ,it is written that,before > > > > cutting of > > > > > > the cord,father is supposed to give some sweet ,honey. > > > > > > > > > > > > The parallel oxygen supply that i had mentioned was the natural > > > > one > > > > > > coming through umblical cord from placenta and not an artificial > > > > > > supply.How long is a question and it varies from case to case. > > > > > > > > > > > > Similar to circumstances which may interrupt or shift a planned > > > > > > ceasarian section,time of birth can be elected only if the lord > > > > > > wills,is my opinion,even with cutting of cord. > > > > > > > > > > > > Even though the placenta can seperate at the time of > delivery ,it > > > > > > may continue to supply nutrients and oxygen. > > > > > > > > > > > > As you know ,my queries are only educative in nature,so that > > > > > > different views regarding the topic can be > obtained,especially as > > > > > > such a consideration is present in classics. > > > > > > > > > > > > Your expertise and experience with cattle is respected > > > > > > > > > > > > Regds > > > > > > Pradeep > > > > > > > > > > > > -- In > <%40> > > > <%40> > > > > > > <%40>, Chandrashekhar > > > > > > <chandrashekhar46@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Pradeep, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In ancient days, men folk were not allowed into the labor room > > > > and > > > > > > there > > > > > > > was no question of father cutting the umbilical cord. > Umbilical > > > > > > cord is > > > > > > > attached to placenta and the placenta and the baby can be away > > > > > > from the > > > > > > > mother even if the umbilical cord is not cut. Since the > time of > > > > > > cutting > > > > > > > of the cord can be elected, if that is the criteria for birth > > > > then > > > > > > one > > > > > > > can change the time of birth of a baby. I do not think that > > > > vedic > > > > > > > astrology assumes that a human being can change the time of > > > > birth > > > > > > of a baby. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As to oxygen supply ( external) that is the case of organized > > > > > > hospitals > > > > > > > but many babies are born where no such provision is there and > > > > even > > > > > > in > > > > > > > the hospitals the baby is held upside down its mucous removed > > > > and > > > > > > it is > > > > > > > made to take first breath on its own. Only if there is a > > > > problem, > > > > > > use of > > > > > > > artificial giving of oxygen is resorted to. Even here unless > > > > the > > > > > > baby is > > > > > > > capable of drawing breath I doubt whether oxygen can be forced > > > > in > > > > > > the > > > > > > > lungs. May be a medical professional would be better placed to > > > > > > comment > > > > > > > on this. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Of course this is my personal opinion and others may hold a > > > > > > different > > > > > > > view on the subject. I had cattle and have bred dogs and > know a > > > > > > bit > > > > > > > about the process of birth having assisted many of my animals > > > > even > > > > > > in > > > > > > > breach presentation. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Take care, > > > > > > > Chandrashekhar. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > vijayadas_pradeep wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Chandrashekhar ji & Ramapriya ji > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks for the views.I see a vaild point in chandrashekhar > > > > jis > > > > > > view > > > > > > > > regarding death and stop of breath. > > > > > > > > At the same time i do see a point with cutting of umbilical > > > > > > chord or > > > > > > > > detachment from placenta,as well.As you know,umbilical chord > > > > > > connects > > > > > > > > the mother and baby through placenta. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thus cutting of umbilical chord naturally disconnetcs mother > > > > and > > > > > > > > baby.Even after delivery,cry and independent breath a > > > > parallel > > > > > > oxygen > > > > > > > > supply is present until the link(chord) is broken. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Now breaking of sac does not stop link with mother,and hence > > > > it > > > > > > > > cannot point to a birth time. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It is a tough case and honestly,though i see a point in your > > > > > > > > explanation,total independency of the baby not being > effected > > > > > > until > > > > > > > > cutting of umbilical chord,is another point keeping my > > > > curiousity > > > > > > > > awake. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Also do you know why the father is supposed to cut the > chord. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Respect > > > > > > > > Pradeep > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <%40> > > > <%40> > > > > > > <%40> > > > > > > > > <%40>, Chandrashekhar > > > > > > > > <chandrashekhar46@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Pradeep, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I am sure the astrologer was referring t Phaldeepika which > > > > does > > > > > > > > mention > > > > > > > > > that. However, since the breaking of placenta is > > > > controlled by > > > > > > > > human > > > > > > > > > action and will, if that is accepted as the time of birth > > > > then > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > whole > > > > > > > > > basis about a soul getting birth at a time dictated by his > > > > > > purva > > > > > > > > karma > > > > > > > > > may not stand the test of logic. Personally I have always > > > > held > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > opinion that it is the first cry of the baby indicative of > > > > > > first > > > > > > > > intake > > > > > > > > > of breath and thus independent life should be considered > > > > as the > > > > > > > > time of > > > > > > > > > birth. My logic is that if end of breath is death then > > > > first > > > > > > intake > > > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > > breath has to be life. There are other reasons for that > > > > > > premise but > > > > > > > > > discussing them all may not be necessary. Primarily we > must > > > > > > > > remember > > > > > > > > > that it is the breath that is called Prana. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Chandrashekhar. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > vijayadas_pradeep wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear respected members > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I was fortunate to meet an elderly village > > > > astrologer,some > > > > > > time > > > > > > > > > > back.His opinion was ,breaking or opening of placenta is > > > > to > > > > > > be > > > > > > > > > > considered as the time of birth.He said he has > shlokas to > > > > > > support > > > > > > > > > > his view. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Later on i had favourable thoughts towards his views.To > > > > me > > > > > > > > Placenta > > > > > > > > > > is then acting like the shell of an egg and protecting > > > > the > > > > > > > > baby.When > > > > > > > > > > it is broken,external influence effects. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Your learned views may be appreciated. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Regds > > > > > > > > > > Pradeep > > > > > > > > > > -- In > <%40> > > > <%40> > > > > > > <%40> > > > > > > > > <%40> > > > > > > > > > > <%40>, "sreeram > > > > srinivas" > > > > > > > > > > <sreeram64@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Your question & analysis is right. But how do you know > > > > > > that a > > > > > > > > > > woman has > > > > > > > > > > > conceived?? It is only after observing the menstrual > > > > cycle > > > > > > or > > > > > > > > > > other > > > > > > > > > > > related biological mechanism. The ancient rishis found > > > > it > > > > > > > > > > convenient that > > > > > > > > > > > day of birth is more convincing and logical to record > > > > and > > > > > > hence, > > > > > > > > > > taken as > > > > > > > > > > > the basis. Analysing critically, one is confused > > > > whether > > > > > > to take > > > > > > > > > > the time > > > > > > > > > > > of birth or time of doctor cutting the umbilical cord > > > > or > > > > > > when > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > child is > > > > > > > > > > > touched on the ground ( old customs)..etc.. As the > time > > > > > > > > variation > > > > > > > > > > in such > > > > > > > > > > > cases is only few minutes, it is immaterial > difference. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Our astro_classics have combinations for > > > > > > best "Garbadharan" and > > > > > > > > > > not much > > > > > > > > > > > research or case studies available on this, for the > > > > simple > > > > > > > > reason > > > > > > > > > > that such > > > > > > > > > > > discussions are too private or personal. Good > > > > ettiquette > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > > society > > > > > > > > > > > norms does not allow to disclose or discuss this. > > > > There is > > > > > > good > > > > > > > > > > amount of > > > > > > > > > > > literature available on Garbadharan > > > > subject....original and > > > > > > > > > > > translated..........{ there are many other highly > > > > qualified > > > > > > > > > > members in this > > > > > > > > > > > groups to advice you further !!) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If one analysis the ancient scriptures including our > > > > > > mythology, > > > > > > > > > > the muhurta > > > > > > > > > > > of an event is given more importance than individual > > > > > > horoscope. > > > > > > > > > > Every > > > > > > > > > > > muhurta has a name ascribed to it and some predictions > > > > > > related > > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > > it ( > > > > > > > > > > > without even considering the planetary positions ), > > > > this > > > > > > is done > > > > > > > > > > based on > > > > > > > > > > > the "amsa" calculations. Some of this ancient science > > > > is > > > > > > lost > > > > > > > > > > and very > > > > > > > > > > > very few people know it, atleast to my knowledge > do not > > > > > > know if > > > > > > > > > > any of the > > > > > > > > > > > existing astro_classics even mention it properly i.e. > > > > > > literature > > > > > > > > > > on this is > > > > > > > > > > > NOT available. Most of our mythologies denote or > > > > reflect > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > importance of > > > > > > > > > > > muhurta ( read nakshatra based muhurtas) rather than > > > > > > planetary > > > > > > > > > > based > > > > > > > > > > > muhurtas which came much much later. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It is said that the time/event of Lord Ravan > kidnapping > > > > > > Goddess > > > > > > > > > > Sita, was > > > > > > > > > > > called something "Vinda", a result of which was > > > > > > destruction or > > > > > > > > > > end of Lord > > > > > > > > > > > Ravan. The coronation of Lord Rama as King of Ayodhya, > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > muhurta was > > > > > > > > > > > determined by our great brahma rishi Vasisth, ( can he > > > > > > > > > > wrong ?? ). Brood > > > > > > > > > > > over this and you will get a new revelation or > > > > > > understanding of > > > > > > > > > > astrology > > > > > > > > > > > timing....... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Adding to your mental inquisitiveness, the original > > > > timing > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > great > > > > > > > > > > > epic war i.e. Mahabharat, was fixed, however, the Lord > > > > > > Krishna > > > > > > > > > > preponed the > > > > > > > > > > > timing by couple of hours, by raising the clarion > conch > > > > > > > > > > call.....of war !!! > > > > > > > > > > > Well in Mahabharat there are few knowledgeable astros > > > > > > including > > > > > > > > > > Great > > > > > > > > > > > Bhishma, Daring Duryodhan, Guru Dronacharya, Dhaan Vir > > > > > > Karna, > > > > > > > > > > Chief > > > > > > > > > > > Justice Yudishthira, Rewarded Naku & Sakadev, Lord > > > > > > > > > > Krishna....etc.. If > > > > > > > > > > > you read the original sanskrit translation of > > > > Mahabharat { > > > > > > > > surely > > > > > > > > > > NOT those > > > > > > > > > > > Amar Chitra kathas} there is an interesting discussion > > > > > > between > > > > > > > > > > Great > > > > > > > > > > > Bhishma, Guru Dronnacharya, Daring Duryodhan on the > > > > issue > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > > > completion of > > > > > > > > > > > the 12+1 years of exile of Pandavas. This controversy > > > > > > still goes > > > > > > > > > > i.e. 360 > > > > > > > > > > > or 365 days in an annual year....etc.. > > > > > > > > > > > Coming back to Mahabharat the place and location > of the > > > > > > war was > > > > > > > > > > also > > > > > > > > > > > predetermined intelligently by Sri Lord Krishna i.e. > > > > > > Kurushetra > > > > > > > > > > for certain > > > > > > > > > > > genuine reasons....one of reasons being that the SOIL > > > > > > there at > > > > > > > > > > Kurushetra > > > > > > > > > > > favors NONE or it is NEUTRAL. There are few very > > > > > > interesting > > > > > > > > > > astro_cryptic > > > > > > > > > > > clues here for an interested student of > > > > > > astrology.......left to > > > > > > > > > > each one's > > > > > > > > > > > imagination to decipher the same...... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Digressing from the issue for a while as we have > > > > touched > > > > > > few > > > > > > > > > > things on > > > > > > > > > > > mythology, just wanted to add few more lines....though > > > > > > learned > > > > > > > > > > Brahma Rishi > > > > > > > > > > > Vasisht happens to be the Kulguru or Chief adviser of > > > > Lord > > > > > > Ram's > > > > > > > > > > family, but > > > > > > > > > > > he choose Brahma Rishi Vishwamitra to train Lord Ram & > > > > > > brothers > > > > > > > > in > > > > > > > > > > the field > > > > > > > > > > > of Weapons i.e. missiles or art of war........and > > > > > > > > technique...... > > > > > > > > > > { read > > > > > > > > > > > between the lines - the original translations - great > > > > > > > > > > astro_message is > > > > > > > > > > > involved here } > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Some of the finest translations are available in > > > > telugu, > > > > > > but due > > > > > > > > > > to modern > > > > > > > > > > > education stress in English or Hinglish, tracing those > > > > good > > > > > > > > books > > > > > > > > > > would be > > > > > > > > > > > daunting task for it is written in poetry form in > > > > Telugu. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > with regards, > > > > > > > > > > > sreeram srinivas > > > > > > > > > > > sreeram64@ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <%40> > > > <%40> > > > > > > <%40> > > > > > > > > <%40> > > > > > > > > > > <%40> > > > > > > > > > > > [ > <%40> > > > <%40> > > > > > > <%40> > > > > > > > > <%40> > > > > > > > > > > <%40>] On > Behalf Of > > > > > > GYATHRI > > > > > > > > > > PATANJOTHI > > > > > > > > > > > Sunday, February 18, 2007 12:57 PM > > > > > > > > > > > jyotish remedies > > > > > > > > > > > calculation of T.O.B > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Astrologers, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I have been thinking about our time fo birth which is > > > > an > > > > > > > > essential > > > > > > > > > > element > > > > > > > > > > > in our astrological chart, but is it wrong for me to > > > > > > believe > > > > > > > > that > > > > > > > > > > there is a > > > > > > > > > > > more accurate time, we should be looking into, because > > > > > > life was > > > > > > > > > > given once > > > > > > > > > > > our mom conceive so is it wrong for me to believe that > > > > the > > > > > > time > > > > > > > > we > > > > > > > > > > were > > > > > > > > > > > conceived could be the time that we should all be > > > > looking > > > > > > into. > > > > > > > > > > > For example, if i am born on the 25th Nov so i > might be > > > > > > > > conceived > > > > > > > > > > on the > > > > > > > > > > > month of Feb assuming it is an exact 9 months delivery > > > > > > without > > > > > > > > > > premature. > > > > > > > > > > > According to other sources too, that babies in the > womb > > > > > > would > > > > > > > > have > > > > > > > > > > their > > > > > > > > > > > first hearbeat after 4 months. > > > > > > > > > > > Since life starts in the mothers womb we have been > > > > living > > > > > > long > > > > > > > > > > before we > > > > > > > > > > > step into the tangible world.Hence I really need some > > > > > > > > > > clarification of a > > > > > > > > > > > valid justification of calculating our lifechart based > > > > on > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > time > > > > > > > > > > of birth. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > > > > Gyathri > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------- > > > > > > > > > > > > Version: 7.5.430 / Virus Database: 268.18.4/702 - Release Date: > 2/25/2007 3:16 PM > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 28, 2007 Report Share Posted February 28, 2007 Dear Chandrashekhar ji Yes Placenta is acting like an interface.I too have mentioned in my previous mails regarding the duration of supply.Some say upto 10 minutes though it varies from case to case.So there is a supply similar to back up battery.Whether this can be accounted or not is the doubt. Why was breaking of placental link (which includes cutting of cord) considered by some as a birth time is the concern.Crying/Breath is the ideal choice,if it is safe enough to ignore the parallel supply. Respect Pradeep , Chandrashekhar <chandrashekhar46 wrote: > > Dear Pradeep, > > I think the oxygen supply is from the wall of the uterus to the placenta > through the umbilical cord to the navel of the fetus. Placenta is a > transfer medium which supplies nutrients, oxygen, antibodies and > hormones etc. from the mother's blood to the fetus and carries the waste > generated by the fetus back. Once the placenta is detached from the > uterus, I doubt if the oxygen supply continues, barring that available > in the blood that remains in the placenta. That is why once the amniotic > fluid and the baby containing sack is broken one has to ensure that the > baby begins breathing soon. It is this independent first breath that is > the time of birth. Of course as i have said earlier, this is my personal > opinion and others could hold a different view. > > Take care, > Chandrashekhar. > > > > vijayadas_pradeep wrote: > > > > Dear Chandrashekhar ji > > > > Thanks for the detailed reply covering numerous aspects. > > Yes it is a practise,over here and perhaps a custom ? - Some > > psychological/physiological reasons can as well be behind this. The > > baby is handed over to the mother and she is asked to hold the baby > > above and close to her abdomen.This then reduce the intensity of > > crying(warmth and psychology).Thereafter the father is asked to cut > > the cord. > > > > Personally i would also love to lean towards your view,as first > > breath marks an independent act from the child,save for the below > > concern. > > > > As per medical journals,Placenta does supply oygen apart from > > nutrients to the baby through the cord(it has three vessels) and > > hence the cord pulsates,even after birth.Also they say,amniotic sac > > is part of the placenta membrane at the fetal side. > > > > As you have rightly mentioned,if one is waiting for couple of hours > > before the cord is cut,then it makes no sense to astrology.But the > > tricky part that comes to my mind is,when does the natural cessation > > of pulsation happens ie the stop of oxygen supply.Some say within 10 > > minutes.Once that happens,cutting makes no impact. > > > > The point i would love to probe is - when is the baby totally > > independent.Even after the first cry,if there is a parallel > > supply,then the baby is not totally independent.Cutting makes it.But > > if one is prolonging the cut,the natural cessation time/point > > happens in between in a silent fashion and goes unnoticed. > > > > If prana is anna or basic food that keeps us alive,then independent > > existence or birth should have a a single input. > > > > All these depends on the divine/technical switch designed by the > > Lord which transfers control.As you have rightly mentioned we need > > to know atleast the basic physiological,functionalities with > > authenticity,to comment further. > > > > Historical points that you have in mind may be shared,if it can help > > to further our understanding.I totally agree with your point > > that,mere cutting of the cord at any elected time does not make > > sense. > > > > Respect > > Pradeep > > > > > > <%40>, Chandrashekhar > > <chandrashekhar46@> wrote: > > > > > > Dear Pradeep, > > > > > > I think in the western world these days it is becoming a practice > > for > > > fathers to be present or even assist at the time of delivery of > > the > > > mother. So that may be the reason that the doctor asked you to cut > > the > > > cord. I could not state anything about this. > > > > > > The practice of giving sweets and honey may be a means of > > rewarding the > > > midwife whose job it was in old days to help a lady deliver her > > child. > > > But I do not know where this custom is prevalent. As far as I > > remember > > > in the old days it was the custom to distribute sugar to the > > > acquaintances when a child was born. > > > > > > I do not think placenta has anything to do with oxygen supply. It > > is > > > filled with blood and in case of carnivores provides immediate > > > nourishment to the dam. Of course this is not the custom in human > > beings > > > and the herbivores though, if allowed to, the herbivores too tend > > to eat > > > the placenta. > > > > > > Remember that there is no fixed time when placenta must be cut > > from the > > > time of birth. One could wait, till a lagna changes, for cutting > > of the > > > cord and this would mean human being deciding the time of birth of > > an > > > individual. This would mean the very basis on which Jyotish > > edifice > > > stands will become faulty and purva karma and time of birth being > > > decided because of that and one getting the horoscope based on his > > purva > > > Karma will stand demolished. I do not think that should be the > > case. > > > > > > But as I said it might be better if a gynecologist on the group > > explains > > > the process of human birth and explain about timing of which > > action can > > > be controlled by human beings and which can not be so controlled > > when a > > > child is born so that this question is settled once and for all. > > > > > > There are also other reasons that I do not want to go into, and > > they > > > relate to the manner of birth recording in the times that the > > shastra > > > was written, that make me believe that the first intake of breath > > > indicated by the cry of the baby to be the time of birth. I do not > > want > > > to enter into that discussion as one can always interpret > > historical > > > facts in different manner and that can only lead to more confusion. > > > > > > As I said this is my opinion and others may hold a different view > > on the > > > subject. > > > > > > Take care, > > > Chandrashekhar. > > > > > > > > > > > > vijayadas_pradeep wrote: > > > > > > > > Dear Chandrashekhar ji > > > > > > > > You may have more authentic info regarding men folks and labour > > room > > > > regarding cutting of cord as compared to my knowledge got through > > > > reading.I was curious on why the doctor had suggested to me to do > > > > so,as i got a chance to be in the labour room,twice -both normal > > > > deliveries. > > > > > > > > But somewhere under ceremonies ,it is written that,before > > cutting of > > > > the cord,father is supposed to give some sweet ,honey. > > > > > > > > The parallel oxygen supply that i had mentioned was the natural > > one > > > > coming through umblical cord from placenta and not an artificial > > > > supply.How long is a question and it varies from case to case. > > > > > > > > Similar to circumstances which may interrupt or shift a planned > > > > ceasarian section,time of birth can be elected only if the lord > > > > wills,is my opinion,even with cutting of cord. > > > > > > > > Even though the placenta can seperate at the time of delivery ,it > > > > may continue to supply nutrients and oxygen. > > > > > > > > As you know ,my queries are only educative in nature,so that > > > > different views regarding the topic can be obtained,especially as > > > > such a consideration is present in classics. > > > > > > > > Your expertise and experience with cattle is respected > > > > > > > > Regds > > > > Pradeep > > > > > > > > -- In > > <%40> > > > > <%40>, Chandrashekhar > > > > <chandrashekhar46@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Dear Pradeep, > > > > > > > > > > In ancient days, men folk were not allowed into the labor room > > and > > > > there > > > > > was no question of father cutting the umbilical cord. Umbilical > > > > cord is > > > > > attached to placenta and the placenta and the baby can be away > > > > from the > > > > > mother even if the umbilical cord is not cut. Since the time of > > > > cutting > > > > > of the cord can be elected, if that is the criteria for birth > > then > > > > one > > > > > can change the time of birth of a baby. I do not think that > > vedic > > > > > astrology assumes that a human being can change the time of > > birth > > > > of a baby. > > > > > > > > > > As to oxygen supply ( external) that is the case of organized > > > > hospitals > > > > > but many babies are born where no such provision is there and > > even > > > > in > > > > > the hospitals the baby is held upside down its mucous removed > > and > > > > it is > > > > > made to take first breath on its own. Only if there is a > > problem, > > > > use of > > > > > artificial giving of oxygen is resorted to. Even here unless > > the > > > > baby is > > > > > capable of drawing breath I doubt whether oxygen can be forced > > in > > > > the > > > > > lungs. May be a medical professional would be better placed to > > > > comment > > > > > on this. > > > > > > > > > > Of course this is my personal opinion and others may hold a > > > > different > > > > > view on the subject. I had cattle and have bred dogs and know a > > > > bit > > > > > about the process of birth having assisted many of my animals > > even > > > > in > > > > > breach presentation. > > > > > > > > > > Take care, > > > > > Chandrashekhar. > > > > > > > > > > vijayadas_pradeep wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Chandrashekhar ji & Ramapriya ji > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks for the views.I see a vaild point in chandrashekhar > > jis > > > > view > > > > > > regarding death and stop of breath. > > > > > > At the same time i do see a point with cutting of umbilical > > > > chord or > > > > > > detachment from placenta,as well.As you know,umbilical chord > > > > connects > > > > > > the mother and baby through placenta. > > > > > > > > > > > > Thus cutting of umbilical chord naturally disconnetcs mother > > and > > > > > > baby.Even after delivery,cry and independent breath a > > parallel > > > > oxygen > > > > > > supply is present until the link(chord) is broken. > > > > > > > > > > > > Now breaking of sac does not stop link with mother,and hence > > it > > > > > > cannot point to a birth time. > > > > > > > > > > > > It is a tough case and honestly,though i see a point in your > > > > > > explanation,total independency of the baby not being effected > > > > until > > > > > > cutting of umbilical chord,is another point keeping my > > curiousity > > > > > > awake. > > > > > > > > > > > > Also do you know why the father is supposed to cut the chord. > > > > > > > > > > > > Respect > > > > > > Pradeep > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <%40> > > > > <%40> > > > > > > <%40>, Chandrashekhar > > > > > > <chandrashekhar46@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Pradeep, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I am sure the astrologer was referring t Phaldeepika which > > does > > > > > > mention > > > > > > > that. However, since the breaking of placenta is > > controlled by > > > > > > human > > > > > > > action and will, if that is accepted as the time of birth > > then > > > > the > > > > > > whole > > > > > > > basis about a soul getting birth at a time dictated by his > > > > purva > > > > > > karma > > > > > > > may not stand the test of logic. Personally I have always > > held > > > > the > > > > > > > opinion that it is the first cry of the baby indicative of > > > > first > > > > > > intake > > > > > > > of breath and thus independent life should be considered > > as the > > > > > > time of > > > > > > > birth. My logic is that if end of breath is death then > > first > > > > intake > > > > > > of > > > > > > > breath has to be life. There are other reasons for that > > > > premise but > > > > > > > discussing them all may not be necessary. Primarily we must > > > > > > remember > > > > > > > that it is the breath that is called Prana. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Chandrashekhar. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > vijayadas_pradeep wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear respected members > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I was fortunate to meet an elderly village > > astrologer,some > > > > time > > > > > > > > back.His opinion was ,breaking or opening of placenta is > > to > > > > be > > > > > > > > considered as the time of birth.He said he has shlokas to > > > > support > > > > > > > > his view. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Later on i had favourable thoughts towards his views.To > > me > > > > > > Placenta > > > > > > > > is then acting like the shell of an egg and protecting > > the > > > > > > baby.When > > > > > > > > it is broken,external influence effects. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Your learned views may be appreciated. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Regds > > > > > > > > Pradeep > > > > > > > > -- In > > <%40> > > > > <%40> > > > > > > <%40> > > > > > > > > <%40>, "sreeram > > srinivas" > > > > > > > > <sreeram64@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Your question & analysis is right. But how do you know > > > > that a > > > > > > > > woman has > > > > > > > > > conceived?? It is only after observing the menstrual > > cycle > > > > or > > > > > > > > other > > > > > > > > > related biological mechanism. The ancient rishis found > > it > > > > > > > > convenient that > > > > > > > > > day of birth is more convincing and logical to record > > and > > > > hence, > > > > > > > > taken as > > > > > > > > > the basis. Analysing critically, one is confused > > whether > > > > to take > > > > > > > > the time > > > > > > > > > of birth or time of doctor cutting the umbilical cord > > or > > > > when > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > child is > > > > > > > > > touched on the ground ( old customs)..etc.. As the time > > > > > > variation > > > > > > > > in such > > > > > > > > > cases is only few minutes, it is immaterial difference. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Our astro_classics have combinations for > > > > best "Garbadharan" and > > > > > > > > not much > > > > > > > > > research or case studies available on this, for the > > simple > > > > > > reason > > > > > > > > that such > > > > > > > > > discussions are too private or personal. Good > > ettiquette > > > > and > > > > > > > > society > > > > > > > > > norms does not allow to disclose or discuss this. > > There is > > > > good > > > > > > > > amount of > > > > > > > > > literature available on Garbadharan > > subject....original and > > > > > > > > > translated..........{ there are many other highly > > qualified > > > > > > > > members in this > > > > > > > > > groups to advice you further !!) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If one analysis the ancient scriptures including our > > > > mythology, > > > > > > > > the muhurta > > > > > > > > > of an event is given more importance than individual > > > > horoscope. > > > > > > > > Every > > > > > > > > > muhurta has a name ascribed to it and some predictions > > > > related > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > it ( > > > > > > > > > without even considering the planetary positions ), > > this > > > > is done > > > > > > > > based on > > > > > > > > > the "amsa" calculations. Some of this ancient science > > is > > > > lost > > > > > > > > and very > > > > > > > > > very few people know it, atleast to my knowledge do not > > > > know if > > > > > > > > any of the > > > > > > > > > existing astro_classics even mention it properly i.e. > > > > literature > > > > > > > > on this is > > > > > > > > > NOT available. Most of our mythologies denote or > > reflect > > > > the > > > > > > > > importance of > > > > > > > > > muhurta ( read nakshatra based muhurtas) rather than > > > > planetary > > > > > > > > based > > > > > > > > > muhurtas which came much much later. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It is said that the time/event of Lord Ravan kidnapping > > > > Goddess > > > > > > > > Sita, was > > > > > > > > > called something "Vinda", a result of which was > > > > destruction or > > > > > > > > end of Lord > > > > > > > > > Ravan. The coronation of Lord Rama as King of Ayodhya, > > the > > > > > > > > muhurta was > > > > > > > > > determined by our great brahma rishi Vasisth, ( can he > > > > > > > > wrong ?? ). Brood > > > > > > > > > over this and you will get a new revelation or > > > > understanding of > > > > > > > > astrology > > > > > > > > > timing....... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Adding to your mental inquisitiveness, the original > > timing > > > > of > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > great > > > > > > > > > epic war i.e. Mahabharat, was fixed, however, the Lord > > > > Krishna > > > > > > > > preponed the > > > > > > > > > timing by couple of hours, by raising the clarion conch > > > > > > > > call.....of war !!! > > > > > > > > > Well in Mahabharat there are few knowledgeable astros > > > > including > > > > > > > > Great > > > > > > > > > Bhishma, Daring Duryodhan, Guru Dronacharya, Dhaan Vir > > > > Karna, > > > > > > > > Chief > > > > > > > > > Justice Yudishthira, Rewarded Naku & Sakadev, Lord > > > > > > > > Krishna....etc.. If > > > > > > > > > you read the original sanskrit translation of > > Mahabharat { > > > > > > surely > > > > > > > > NOT those > > > > > > > > > Amar Chitra kathas} there is an interesting discussion > > > > between > > > > > > > > Great > > > > > > > > > Bhishma, Guru Dronnacharya, Daring Duryodhan on the > > issue > > > > of > > > > > > > > completion of > > > > > > > > > the 12+1 years of exile of Pandavas. This controversy > > > > still goes > > > > > > > > i.e. 360 > > > > > > > > > or 365 days in an annual year....etc.. > > > > > > > > > Coming back to Mahabharat the place and location of the > > > > war was > > > > > > > > also > > > > > > > > > predetermined intelligently by Sri Lord Krishna i.e. > > > > Kurushetra > > > > > > > > for certain > > > > > > > > > genuine reasons....one of reasons being that the SOIL > > > > there at > > > > > > > > Kurushetra > > > > > > > > > favors NONE or it is NEUTRAL. There are few very > > > > interesting > > > > > > > > astro_cryptic > > > > > > > > > clues here for an interested student of > > > > astrology.......left to > > > > > > > > each one's > > > > > > > > > imagination to decipher the same...... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Digressing from the issue for a while as we have > > touched > > > > few > > > > > > > > things on > > > > > > > > > mythology, just wanted to add few more lines....though > > > > learned > > > > > > > > Brahma Rishi > > > > > > > > > Vasisht happens to be the Kulguru or Chief adviser of > > Lord > > > > Ram's > > > > > > > > family, but > > > > > > > > > he choose Brahma Rishi Vishwamitra to train Lord Ram & > > > > brothers > > > > > > in > > > > > > > > the field > > > > > > > > > of Weapons i.e. missiles or art of war........and > > > > > > technique...... > > > > > > > > { read > > > > > > > > > between the lines - the original translations - great > > > > > > > > astro_message is > > > > > > > > > involved here } > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Some of the finest translations are available in > > telugu, > > > > but due > > > > > > > > to modern > > > > > > > > > education stress in English or Hinglish, tracing those > > good > > > > > > books > > > > > > > > would be > > > > > > > > > daunting task for it is written in poetry form in > > Telugu. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > with regards, > > > > > > > > > sreeram srinivas > > > > > > > > > sreeram64@ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <%40> > > > > <%40> > > > > > > <%40> > > > > > > > > <%40> > > > > > > > > > [ > > <%40> > > > > <%40> > > > > > > <%40> > > > > > > > > <%40>] On Behalf Of > > > > GYATHRI > > > > > > > > PATANJOTHI > > > > > > > > > Sunday, February 18, 2007 12:57 PM > > > > > > > > > jyotish remedies > > > > > > > > > calculation of T.O.B > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Astrologers, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I have been thinking about our time fo birth which is > > an > > > > > > essential > > > > > > > > element > > > > > > > > > in our astrological chart, but is it wrong for me to > > > > believe > > > > > > that > > > > > > > > there is a > > > > > > > > > more accurate time, we should be looking into, because > > > > life was > > > > > > > > given once > > > > > > > > > our mom conceive so is it wrong for me to believe that > > the > > > > time > > > > > > we > > > > > > > > were > > > > > > > > > conceived could be the time that we should all be > > looking > > > > into. > > > > > > > > > For example, if i am born on the 25th Nov so i might be > > > > > > conceived > > > > > > > > on the > > > > > > > > > month of Feb assuming it is an exact 9 months delivery > > > > without > > > > > > > > premature. > > > > > > > > > According to other sources too, that babies in the womb > > > > would > > > > > > have > > > > > > > > their > > > > > > > > > first hearbeat after 4 months. > > > > > > > > > Since life starts in the mothers womb we have been > > living > > > > long > > > > > > > > before we > > > > > > > > > step into the tangible world.Hence I really need some > > > > > > > > clarification of a > > > > > > > > > valid justification of calculating our lifechart based > > on > > > > the > > > > > > time > > > > > > > > of birth. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > > Gyathri > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > . > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <http://geo./serv? <http://geo./serv?> > > <http://geo./serv? <http://geo./serv?> > > > > > > > <http://geo./serv? <http://geo./serv?> > > <http://geo./serv? <http://geo./serv?>>> > > > > > > <http://geo./serv? <http://geo./serv?> > > <http://geo./serv? <http://geo./serv?>> > > > > <http://geo./serv? <http://geo./serv?> > > <http://geo./serv? <http://geo./serv?>>>> > > > > > > > > s=97359714/grpId=9699862/grpspId=1705082690/msgId > > > > > > > > > > > > > =39690/stime=1171783748/nc1=3848641/nc2=3848567/nc3=3848581> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -------------------- ---- > > - > > > > > > ------ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Version: 7.5.430 / Virus Database: 268.18.3/696 - Release > > > > Date: > > > > > > 2/21/2007 3:19 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 1, 2007 Report Share Posted March 1, 2007 Dear Chandrashekhar Ji If the Placenta and Umbilical cord is intact (Attached to the mother), the child receives oxygen and nutrients, so it does not need to breathe on its own. The need to sustain itself arises only when the supply is cut from the mother. Hope the concept is clear. Dev Kumar On 2/28/07, Chandrashekhar <chandrashekhar46 (AT) (DOT) co.uk> wrote: > > Dear Dev, > > I think there is something wrong in understanding what the Doctors must > have said. It is perfectly possible for a child to breath even if the > placenta is attached or if the umbilical cord is not severed. > > Chandrashekhar. > > jumanji1957 wrote: > > > > Dear Chandrashekhar Ji > > > > Sir, there is very little room for doubt. If a person is to be > > declared dead, when was it born?? > > > > If the baby does not breathe, medically the birth is declared as a > > gravid birth where death occurred during birth, or in the womb itself!!! > > > > Sir, I had the rare honor of attending a Doctor's conference where the > > subject of birth time was being discussed and this is what was > > declared as a unanimous decision. > > > > Logically it seems quite good, because the baby WILL breathe ONLY when > > it is deprived of oxygen from its mother) which comes through the > > Placenta and Umbilical Cord. > > > > I will welcome any other explanation that will define "Independent life" > > > > Dev Kumar > > > > > > <%40>, Chandrashekhar > > <chandrashekhar46 wrote: > > > > > > Dear Dev, > > > Your post is a bit confusing. Do you mean that if the umbilical cord > is > > > cut the child is born alive even if it does not draw the first breath > > > and is declared born dead by the Doctors? > > > > > > I am sure you do not mean that just because hospitals record the > > time of > > > cutting of umbilical cord as time of birth, science of astrology > should > > > treat it as the time of birth if the original parameters were > different. > > > > > > Chandrashekhar. > > > > > > jumanji1957 wrote: > > > > > > > > Hello Everyone > > > > > > > > Allow me to add my two cents on this discussion. As long as the baby > > > > is attached to the mother through the Umbilical cord it receives > > > > oxygen from the mother and does not need to breathe. > > > > > > > > Time of birth technically is recorded when the umbilical cord is > cut!! > > > > The baby thus deprived of live saving oxygen now needs to breathe to > > > > survive. > > > > > > > > In some cases where the baby does not start breathing, the attendant > > > > doctors and nurses pinch the baby to facilitate the natural process. > > > > If this fails, artificial resuscitation attempts are then initiated. > > > > > > > > If all attempts to revive the baby fails and the baby does not > > > > breathe, death is announced. > > > > > > > > So in Medical Technical terms, birth time is the one where > independent > > > > life comes into existence on this planet. This happens only when the > > > > umbilical cord is cut!!! > > > > > > > > All major hospitals record cutting of Umbilical cord as birth time. > > > > However in cases where the staff is negligent or busy with the > mother > > > > and the child they fail to note the time, hence discrepancies cannot > > > > be ruled out. > > > > > > > > Hope the concept is clear. Warm regards > > > > > > > > Dev Kumar > > > > > > > > > > <%40> > > > > <%40>, "vijayadas_pradeep" > > > > <vijayadas_pradeep@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Dear Chandrashekhar ji > > > > > > > > > > Thanks for the detailed reply covering numerous aspects. > > > > > Yes it is a practise,over here and perhaps a custom ? - Some > > > > > psychological/physiological reasons can as well be behind this. > The > > > > > baby is handed over to the mother and she is asked to hold the > baby > > > > > above and close to her abdomen.This then reduce the intensity of > > > > > crying(warmth and psychology).Thereafter the father is asked to > cut > > > > > the cord. > > > > > > > > > > Personally i would also love to lean towards your view,as first > > > > > breath marks an independent act from the child,save for the below > > > > > concern. > > > > > > > > > > As per medical journals,Placenta does supply oygen apart from > > > > > nutrients to the baby through the cord(it has three vessels) and > > > > > hence the cord pulsates,even after birth.Also they say,amniotic > sac > > > > > is part of the placenta membrane at the fetal side. > > > > > > > > > > As you have rightly mentioned,if one is waiting for couple of > hours > > > > > before the cord is cut,then it makes no sense to astrology.But the > > > > > tricky part that comes to my mind is,when does the natural > cessation > > > > > of pulsation happens ie the stop of oxygen supply.Some say within > 10 > > > > > minutes.Once that happens,cutting makes no impact. > > > > > > > > > > The point i would love to probe is - when is the baby totally > > > > > independent.Even after the first cry,if there is a parallel > > > > > supply,then the baby is not totally independent.Cutting makes > it.But > > > > > if one is prolonging the cut,the natural cessation time/point > > > > > happens in between in a silent fashion and goes unnoticed. > > > > > > > > > > If prana is anna or basic food that keeps us alive,then > independent > > > > > existence or birth should have a a single input. > > > > > > > > > > All these depends on the divine/technical switch designed by the > > > > > Lord which transfers control.As you have rightly mentioned we need > > > > > to know atleast the basic physiological,functionalities with > > > > > authenticity,to comment further. > > > > > > > > > > Historical points that you have in mind may be shared,if it can > help > > > > > to further our understanding.I totally agree with your point > > > > > that,mere cutting of the cord at any elected time does not make > > > > > sense. > > > > > > > > > > Respect > > > > > Pradeep > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <%40> > > > > <%40>, Chandrashekhar > > > > > <chandrashekhar46@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Pradeep, > > > > > > > > > > > > I think in the western world these days it is becoming a > practice > > > > > for > > > > > > fathers to be present or even assist at the time of delivery of > > > > > the > > > > > > mother. So that may be the reason that the doctor asked you to > cut > > > > > the > > > > > > cord. I could not state anything about this. > > > > > > > > > > > > The practice of giving sweets and honey may be a means of > > > > > rewarding the > > > > > > midwife whose job it was in old days to help a lady deliver her > > > > > child. > > > > > > But I do not know where this custom is prevalent. As far as I > > > > > remember > > > > > > in the old days it was the custom to distribute sugar to the > > > > > > acquaintances when a child was born. > > > > > > > > > > > > I do not think placenta has anything to do with oxygen supply. > It > > > > > is > > > > > > filled with blood and in case of carnivores provides immediate > > > > > > nourishment to the dam. Of course this is not the custom in > human > > > > > beings > > > > > > and the herbivores though, if allowed to, the herbivores too > tend > > > > > to eat > > > > > > the placenta. > > > > > > > > > > > > Remember that there is no fixed time when placenta must be cut > > > > > from the > > > > > > time of birth. One could wait, till a lagna changes, for cutting > > > > > of the > > > > > > cord and this would mean human being deciding the time of birth > of > > > > > an > > > > > > individual. This would mean the very basis on which Jyotish > > > > > edifice > > > > > > stands will become faulty and purva karma and time of birth > being > > > > > > decided because of that and one getting the horoscope based on > his > > > > > purva > > > > > > Karma will stand demolished. I do not think that should be the > > > > > case. > > > > > > > > > > > > But as I said it might be better if a gynecologist on the group > > > > > explains > > > > > > the process of human birth and explain about timing of which > > > > > action can > > > > > > be controlled by human beings and which can not be so controlled > > > > > when a > > > > > > child is born so that this question is settled once and for all. > > > > > > > > > > > > There are also other reasons that I do not want to go into, and > > > > > they > > > > > > relate to the manner of birth recording in the times that the > > > > > shastra > > > > > > was written, that make me believe that the first intake of > breath > > > > > > indicated by the cry of the baby to be the time of birth. I do > not > > > > > want > > > > > > to enter into that discussion as one can always interpret > > > > > historical > > > > > > facts in different manner and that can only lead to more > > confusion. > > > > > > > > > > > > As I said this is my opinion and others may hold a different > view > > > > > on the > > > > > > subject. > > > > > > > > > > > > Take care, > > > > > > Chandrashekhar. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > vijayadas_pradeep wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Chandrashekhar ji > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You may have more authentic info regarding men folks and > labour > > > > > room > > > > > > > regarding cutting of cord as compared to my knowledge got > > through > > > > > > > reading.I was curious on why the doctor had suggested to me > > to do > > > > > > > so,as i got a chance to be in the labour room,twice -both > normal > > > > > > > deliveries. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But somewhere under ceremonies ,it is written that,before > > > > > cutting of > > > > > > > the cord,father is supposed to give some sweet ,honey. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The parallel oxygen supply that i had mentioned was the > natural > > > > > one > > > > > > > coming through umblical cord from placenta and not an > artificial > > > > > > > supply.How long is a question and it varies from case to case. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Similar to circumstances which may interrupt or shift a > planned > > > > > > > ceasarian section,time of birth can be elected only if the > lord > > > > > > > wills,is my opinion,even with cutting of cord. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Even though the placenta can seperate at the time of > > delivery ,it > > > > > > > may continue to supply nutrients and oxygen. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As you know ,my queries are only educative in nature,so that > > > > > > > different views regarding the topic can be > > obtained,especially as > > > > > > > such a consideration is present in classics. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Your expertise and experience with cattle is respected > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Regds > > > > > > > Pradeep > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- In > > <%40> > > > > <%40> > > > > > > > <%40>, Chandrashekhar > > > > > > > <chandrashekhar46@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Pradeep, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In ancient days, men folk were not allowed into the labor > room > > > > > and > > > > > > > there > > > > > > > > was no question of father cutting the umbilical cord. > > Umbilical > > > > > > > cord is > > > > > > > > attached to placenta and the placenta and the baby can be > away > > > > > > > from the > > > > > > > > mother even if the umbilical cord is not cut. Since the > > time of > > > > > > > cutting > > > > > > > > of the cord can be elected, if that is the criteria for > birth > > > > > then > > > > > > > one > > > > > > > > can change the time of birth of a baby. I do not think that > > > > > vedic > > > > > > > > astrology assumes that a human being can change the time of > > > > > birth > > > > > > > of a baby. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As to oxygen supply ( external) that is the case of > organized > > > > > > > hospitals > > > > > > > > but many babies are born where no such provision is there > and > > > > > even > > > > > > > in > > > > > > > > the hospitals the baby is held upside down its mucous > removed > > > > > and > > > > > > > it is > > > > > > > > made to take first breath on its own. Only if there is a > > > > > problem, > > > > > > > use of > > > > > > > > artificial giving of oxygen is resorted to. Even here unless > > > > > the > > > > > > > baby is > > > > > > > > capable of drawing breath I doubt whether oxygen can be > forced > > > > > in > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > lungs. May be a medical professional would be better placed > to > > > > > > > comment > > > > > > > > on this. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Of course this is my personal opinion and others may hold a > > > > > > > different > > > > > > > > view on the subject. I had cattle and have bred dogs and > > know a > > > > > > > bit > > > > > > > > about the process of birth having assisted many of my > animals > > > > > even > > > > > > > in > > > > > > > > breach presentation. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Take care, > > > > > > > > Chandrashekhar. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > vijayadas_pradeep wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Chandrashekhar ji & Ramapriya ji > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks for the views.I see a vaild point in chandrashekhar > > > > > jis > > > > > > > view > > > > > > > > > regarding death and stop of breath. > > > > > > > > > At the same time i do see a point with cutting of > umbilical > > > > > > > chord or > > > > > > > > > detachment from placenta,as well.As you know,umbilical > chord > > > > > > > connects > > > > > > > > > the mother and baby through placenta. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thus cutting of umbilical chord naturally disconnetcs > mother > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > baby.Even after delivery,cry and independent breath a > > > > > parallel > > > > > > > oxygen > > > > > > > > > supply is present until the link(chord) is broken. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Now breaking of sac does not stop link with mother,and > hence > > > > > it > > > > > > > > > cannot point to a birth time. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It is a tough case and honestly,though i see a point in > your > > > > > > > > > explanation,total independency of the baby not being > > effected > > > > > > > until > > > > > > > > > cutting of umbilical chord,is another point keeping my > > > > > curiousity > > > > > > > > > awake. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Also do you know why the father is supposed to cut the > > chord. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Respect > > > > > > > > > Pradeep > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <%40> > > > > <%40> > > > > > > > <%40> > > > > > > > > > <%40>, Chandrashekhar > > > > > > > > > <chandrashekhar46@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Pradeep, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I am sure the astrologer was referring t Phaldeepika > which > > > > > does > > > > > > > > > mention > > > > > > > > > > that. However, since the breaking of placenta is > > > > > controlled by > > > > > > > > > human > > > > > > > > > > action and will, if that is accepted as the time of > birth > > > > > then > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > whole > > > > > > > > > > basis about a soul getting birth at a time dictated by > his > > > > > > > purva > > > > > > > > > karma > > > > > > > > > > may not stand the test of logic. Personally I have > always > > > > > held > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > opinion that it is the first cry of the baby indicative > of > > > > > > > first > > > > > > > > > intake > > > > > > > > > > of breath and thus independent life should be considered > > > > > as the > > > > > > > > > time of > > > > > > > > > > birth. My logic is that if end of breath is death then > > > > > first > > > > > > > intake > > > > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > > > breath has to be life. There are other reasons for that > > > > > > > premise but > > > > > > > > > > discussing them all may not be necessary. Primarily we > > must > > > > > > > > > remember > > > > > > > > > > that it is the breath that is called Prana. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Chandrashekhar. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > vijayadas_pradeep wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear respected members > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I was fortunate to meet an elderly village > > > > > astrologer,some > > > > > > > time > > > > > > > > > > > back.His opinion was ,breaking or opening of placenta > is > > > > > to > > > > > > > be > > > > > > > > > > > considered as the time of birth.He said he has > > shlokas to > > > > > > > support > > > > > > > > > > > his view. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Later on i had favourable thoughts towards his > views.To > > > > > me > > > > > > > > > Placenta > > > > > > > > > > > is then acting like the shell of an egg and protecting > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > baby.When > > > > > > > > > > > it is broken,external influence effects. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Your learned views may be appreciated. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Regds > > > > > > > > > > > Pradeep > > > > > > > > > > > -- In > > <%40> > > > > <%40> > > > > > > > <%40> > > > > > > > > > <%40> > > > > > > > > > > > <%40>, "sreeram > > > > > srinivas" > > > > > > > > > > > <sreeram64@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Your question & analysis is right. But how do you > know > > > > > > > that a > > > > > > > > > > > woman has > > > > > > > > > > > > conceived?? It is only after observing the menstrual > > > > > cycle > > > > > > > or > > > > > > > > > > > other > > > > > > > > > > > > related biological mechanism. The ancient rishis > found > > > > > it > > > > > > > > > > > convenient that > > > > > > > > > > > > day of birth is more convincing and logical to > record > > > > > and > > > > > > > hence, > > > > > > > > > > > taken as > > > > > > > > > > > > the basis. Analysing critically, one is confused > > > > > whether > > > > > > > to take > > > > > > > > > > > the time > > > > > > > > > > > > of birth or time of doctor cutting the umbilical > cord > > > > > or > > > > > > > when > > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > child is > > > > > > > > > > > > touched on the ground ( old customs)..etc.. As the > > time > > > > > > > > > variation > > > > > > > > > > > in such > > > > > > > > > > > > cases is only few minutes, it is immaterial > > difference. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Our astro_classics have combinations for > > > > > > > best "Garbadharan" and > > > > > > > > > > > not much > > > > > > > > > > > > research or case studies available on this, for the > > > > > simple > > > > > > > > > reason > > > > > > > > > > > that such > > > > > > > > > > > > discussions are too private or personal. Good > > > > > ettiquette > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > > > society > > > > > > > > > > > > norms does not allow to disclose or discuss this. > > > > > There is > > > > > > > good > > > > > > > > > > > amount of > > > > > > > > > > > > literature available on Garbadharan > > > > > subject....original and > > > > > > > > > > > > translated..........{ there are many other highly > > > > > qualified > > > > > > > > > > > members in this > > > > > > > > > > > > groups to advice you further !!) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If one analysis the ancient scriptures including our > > > > > > > mythology, > > > > > > > > > > > the muhurta > > > > > > > > > > > > of an event is given more importance than individual > > > > > > > horoscope. > > > > > > > > > > > Every > > > > > > > > > > > > muhurta has a name ascribed to it and some > predictions > > > > > > > related > > > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > > > it ( > > > > > > > > > > > > without even considering the planetary positions ), > > > > > this > > > > > > > is done > > > > > > > > > > > based on > > > > > > > > > > > > the "amsa" calculations. Some of this ancient > science > > > > > is > > > > > > > lost > > > > > > > > > > > and very > > > > > > > > > > > > very few people know it, atleast to my knowledge > > do not > > > > > > > know if > > > > > > > > > > > any of the > > > > > > > > > > > > existing astro_classics even mention it properly i.e > . > > > > > > > literature > > > > > > > > > > > on this is > > > > > > > > > > > > NOT available. Most of our mythologies denote or > > > > > reflect > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > importance of > > > > > > > > > > > > muhurta ( read nakshatra based muhurtas) rather than > > > > > > > planetary > > > > > > > > > > > based > > > > > > > > > > > > muhurtas which came much much later. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It is said that the time/event of Lord Ravan > > kidnapping > > > > > > > Goddess > > > > > > > > > > > Sita, was > > > > > > > > > > > > called something "Vinda", a result of which was > > > > > > > destruction or > > > > > > > > > > > end of Lord > > > > > > > > > > > > Ravan. The coronation of Lord Rama as King of > Ayodhya, > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > muhurta was > > > > > > > > > > > > determined by our great brahma rishi Vasisth, ( can > he > > > > > > > > > > > wrong ?? ). Brood > > > > > > > > > > > > over this and you will get a new revelation or > > > > > > > understanding of > > > > > > > > > > > astrology > > > > > > > > > > > > timing....... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Adding to your mental inquisitiveness, the original > > > > > timing > > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > great > > > > > > > > > > > > epic war i.e. Mahabharat, was fixed, however, the > Lord > > > > > > > Krishna > > > > > > > > > > > preponed the > > > > > > > > > > > > timing by couple of hours, by raising the clarion > > conch > > > > > > > > > > > call.....of war !!! > > > > > > > > > > > > Well in Mahabharat there are few knowledgeable > astros > > > > > > > including > > > > > > > > > > > Great > > > > > > > > > > > > Bhishma, Daring Duryodhan, Guru Dronacharya, Dhaan > Vir > > > > > > > Karna, > > > > > > > > > > > Chief > > > > > > > > > > > > Justice Yudishthira, Rewarded Naku & Sakadev, Lord > > > > > > > > > > > Krishna....etc.. If > > > > > > > > > > > > you read the original sanskrit translation of > > > > > Mahabharat { > > > > > > > > > surely > > > > > > > > > > > NOT those > > > > > > > > > > > > Amar Chitra kathas} there is an interesting > discussion > > > > > > > between > > > > > > > > > > > Great > > > > > > > > > > > > Bhishma, Guru Dronnacharya, Daring Duryodhan on the > > > > > issue > > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > > > > completion of > > > > > > > > > > > > the 12+1 years of exile of Pandavas. This > controversy > > > > > > > still goes > > > > > > > > > > > i.e. 360 > > > > > > > > > > > > or 365 days in an annual year....etc.. > > > > > > > > > > > > Coming back to Mahabharat the place and location > > of the > > > > > > > war was > > > > > > > > > > > also > > > > > > > > > > > > predetermined intelligently by Sri Lord Krishna i.e. > > > > > > > Kurushetra > > > > > > > > > > > for certain > > > > > > > > > > > > genuine reasons....one of reasons being that the > SOIL > > > > > > > there at > > > > > > > > > > > Kurushetra > > > > > > > > > > > > favors NONE or it is NEUTRAL. There are few very > > > > > > > interesting > > > > > > > > > > > astro_cryptic > > > > > > > > > > > > clues here for an interested student of > > > > > > > astrology.......left to > > > > > > > > > > > each one's > > > > > > > > > > > > imagination to decipher the same...... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Digressing from the issue for a while as we have > > > > > touched > > > > > > > few > > > > > > > > > > > things on > > > > > > > > > > > > mythology, just wanted to add few more > lines....though > > > > > > > learned > > > > > > > > > > > Brahma Rishi > > > > > > > > > > > > Vasisht happens to be the Kulguru or Chief adviser > of > > > > > Lord > > > > > > > Ram's > > > > > > > > > > > family, but > > > > > > > > > > > > he choose Brahma Rishi Vishwamitra to train Lord Ram > & > > > > > > > brothers > > > > > > > > > in > > > > > > > > > > > the field > > > > > > > > > > > > of Weapons i.e. missiles or art of war........and > > > > > > > > > technique...... > > > > > > > > > > > { read > > > > > > > > > > > > between the lines - the original translations - > great > > > > > > > > > > > astro_message is > > > > > > > > > > > > involved here } > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Some of the finest translations are available in > > > > > telugu, > > > > > > > but due > > > > > > > > > > > to modern > > > > > > > > > > > > education stress in English or Hinglish, tracing > those > > > > > good > > > > > > > > > books > > > > > > > > > > > would be > > > > > > > > > > > > daunting task for it is written in poetry form in > > > > > Telugu. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > with regards, > > > > > > > > > > > > sreeram srinivas > > > > > > > > > > > > sreeram64@ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <%40> > > > > <%40> > > > > > > > <%40> > > > > > > > > > <%40> > > > > > > > > > > > <%40> > > > > > > > > > > > > [ > > <%40> > > > > <%40> > > > > > > > <%40> > > > > > > > > > <%40> > > > > > > > > > > > <%40>] On > > Behalf Of > > > > > > > GYATHRI > > > > > > > > > > > PATANJOTHI > > > > > > > > > > > > Sunday, February 18, 2007 12:57 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > jyotish remedies > > > > > > > > > > > > calculation of T.O.B > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Astrologers, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I have been thinking about our time fo birth which > is > > > > > an > > > > > > > > > essential > > > > > > > > > > > element > > > > > > > > > > > > in our astrological chart, but is it wrong for me to > > > > > > > believe > > > > > > > > > that > > > > > > > > > > > there is a > > > > > > > > > > > > more accurate time, we should be looking into, > because > > > > > > > life was > > > > > > > > > > > given once > > > > > > > > > > > > our mom conceive so is it wrong for me to believe > that > > > > > the > > > > > > > time > > > > > > > > > we > > > > > > > > > > > were > > > > > > > > > > > > conceived could be the time that we should all be > > > > > looking > > > > > > > into. > > > > > > > > > > > > For example, if i am born on the 25th Nov so i > > might be > > > > > > > > > conceived > > > > > > > > > > > on the > > > > > > > > > > > > month of Feb assuming it is an exact 9 months > delivery > > > > > > > without > > > > > > > > > > > premature. > > > > > > > > > > > > According to other sources too, that babies in the > > womb > > > > > > > would > > > > > > > > > have > > > > > > > > > > > their > > > > > > > > > > > > first hearbeat after 4 months. > > > > > > > > > > > > Since life starts in the mothers womb we have been > > > > > living > > > > > > > long > > > > > > > > > > > before we > > > > > > > > > > > > step into the tangible world.Hence I really need > some > > > > > > > > > > > clarification of a > > > > > > > > > > > > valid justification of calculating our lifechart > based > > > > > on > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > time > > > > > > > > > > > of birth. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > > > > > Gyathri > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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