Ishvara and Vyavahaarika

[Guest guest]

Namaskarams to the Advaitins,

 

I have attached below parts of an email to the moderator Sri Dennis-ji

in which I wanted to request a topic, namely the precise position of

Advaita as to vyavahaarika truth. However eventually the email was

passed onto Sri Subbuji who gave answers (see below, contained in [[[

.... ]]]), unexpectedly confirming in full measure the orthodox

versions. I am happy at least to be sure that the orthodox traditions

really do affirm ("NO PRETENSES") these things entirely in the

vyavahaarika.

 

(I see that while I was absent the topic of Ishvara has already been

ground to dust, but the following offers a confirmation suitable for

those with an affinity to Bhakthi.)

 

thollmelukaalkizhu

 

....

 

I wish to mention the following elements that the orthodox position

stresses:

 

1. Jivas are born again and again to work out their karma.

Reincarnation is a FACT in

vyavahaarika.

2. Ishvara is the Creator

3. Ishvara is the giver of the fruits of our actions

4. Isvara is compassionate, full of mercy

5. Ishvara incarnates on earth in special manner in order to eliminate

human suffering, evil,

etc. Examples of such are Rama, Krishna, etc.

 

[[[All these are quite true. Exactly as it is accepted in sampradaya,

tradition.]]]

 

6. Shiva, Vishnu, Brahma are triple manifestations of Ishvara (of

course one can bypass this by suggesting that these are names for the

triple roles of creation, ...; but it is not clear how we should

understand "Shiva", when the acharyas use it in Bhakthi sense only,

and add that Shankara is incarnation of Shiva, etc.)

 

[[[ This is a fine observation. 'Shiva' in this sense is taken as the

Supreme, and not just as one of the three. See my post on The Grand

Scheme of Bhagavan Veda Vyasa'. You will find Shankaracharya's

stotras a great mine of information on this. When he propitiates

Shiva, Shiva is the Supreme, when he propitiates AmbAl, She is

supreme. When he writes on Ganesha, he is supreme, and so on with

Subrahmanya and Vishnu. As this is possible and sanctioned by Veda

Vyasa, there is no problem with this. When Shankara is said to be the

incarnation of Shiva, there is the Shankaravijayam basis for this.

The childless couple Shivaguru and AryAmbA did penance and prayed to

Lord Shiva in the Trichur Temple. Shiva appeared in their dream (on

the same night, for both of them) and assured them that He will be

granting their plea. The Shankaravijayam traces an episode prior to

that when Lord Shiva was approached by other devas and pleaded that

the Sanatana Dharma is to be upheld and the Vedantas should be

protected. Shiva assures them that He will incarnate as

Shankaracharya and do the needful. Not only that, Subrahmanya

incarnated as, Padmapaadacharya, if i am not wrong. Indra and other

devas too incarnated to aid Shankara in his task. So there is a

traditional background for this.]]]

 

The personality of God is presented as being real as yours or mine,

and not more unreal or avoidable. THIS IS VERY CRUCIAL TO EXPLAIN

PROPERLY. Is God Real, in vyavahaarika? If I am aware of the presence

of a human being, the mind is affected and responds at the human

level. Now if in fact God is real in this sense, then there would be

not an iota of justification for acting like Paramaarthika alone

matters, except that it is an open confession of disbelief in

Ishvara's personal reality. Why not confess it outright and say we

believe the scriptures are false when they talk of God's reality? Why

take up an absolute position when we define Jiva or Ishvara, and avoid

the issue involved?

 

[[[ Pl. understand the true position: It is quite justifiable on your

part to say that God is real and expect Him to be experienced just as

any other person whose presence you easily acknowledge and interact.

Sri Ramakrishna Paramahamsa said exactly this to the doubting Narendra

(Sw.Viv.): Yes, you can not only see Him, but also talk to Him just as

you are talking to me'. So this is ONE HUNDRED PERCENT TRUE; NO

PRETENSES. There are a lot of incidents even in the modern times, in

the very recent past when such instances of Ishwara manifesting and

conversing with devotees. I have posted several such incidents

connected with for example: Sri Abhinava Vidyateertha Swamigal of

Sringeri who lived in the very recent times. I am aware of other

hair-raising incidents of Ishwara manifesting, conversing and even

giving something as a memento to the devotee, which has not vanished

even after the vision with Ishwara ceased. There are devotees who can

see and talk and praise and cuddle Ishwara. So never be in

the impression that this is a topic that is brushed aside

as arthavada, eulogy and not real. It is REAL in vyavahara. No doubt

about this.When someone, I mean the Acharyas of the tradition, who are

Jnanis, (even Acharya Shankara) says that paramarthika alone matters

what is meant is: vyavahara has a lesser degree of reality when

compared to paramarthika, which is what is absolutely real. When you

study more and more of Advaita, especially when you read the Mandukya

Karikas of Gaudapadacharya, you will come to appreciate this. All

sadhana, karma yoga, bhakti, etc. are to be undertaken with all

seriousness, with no laxity, with full faith and sincerety in life.

This is indispensible. But, as i had mentioned earlier, all this will

give rise to the Realization of the Truth, which is a quantum leap and

launch the sadhaka to a state that is fully 'outside' the realm of

sadhana which is called the vyavahara realm. Any amount of my

explaining these will/may not create the required conviction until you

walk the path of study, contemplation, with satsangha, with a learned

acharya, and yourself start seeing the scheme of things. If a person

says Ishwara is just in vyavahara and not to be taken seriously, watch

out, this person has not to be taken seriously. It will put your

sadhana in jeopardy. ]]]

 

Warm regards,

subbu

Om Tat Sat

 

...........................................................

 

For those who persisted to the end, I shall spoil the mood (if you

read further) with my three cents of thoughts.

 

The basis for such realizations is the testimony of real sages. Their

methods are quite different from plain reason and logic. So they only

know whether a hidden spiritual dimension operates beyond the realms

that the ego-attached mind can reach. And if we truly seek to know, we

have to follow the way they have shown.

 

Subjective consciousness is a unique phenomenon known only in earth.

If an assessment is to be made of the remaining universe, that this

potency is there would be unknown. Thus there may be potencies in

Brahman, that are hidden from the reaches of reason and science, but

can be directly communed with at the level of consciousness. This is

religion, and the methods are those the sages have perfected. If we

hold to the ego-frame of reference and the methods of science/reason

alone, then we will only be in a position to analyze prakrithi but

will not be able to comprehend the other spiritual dimensions of our

Being.

 

I don't say all things religions speak of are necessarily the truth.

Such beliefs can lead to dogmatic narrowmindedness. But when a Sri

Ramakrishna says that he saw Kali, there is more than a mere

hallucination of mind. Something real was experienced/witnessed at the

level of consciousness. We may not understand his verbal expressions

in full, but his methods are apparent and these he taught to all. If

we can place a bit of faith in the possibility, then the path of

religion will be fruitful. So the sages say.

 

As for Advaita, this "safety cushion" of giving a lower status to

Vyavahara can be seen as its greatest asset. The philosophy can

accomodate a variety of assessments at the levels of perception

without becoming dependent on any of them. This allows a wide class of

seekers to join the troops and march on.