Guest guest Posted January 31, 2007 Report Share Posted January 31, 2007 Lord Krishna started the Gita with the path of knowledge only in the second chapter itself which is the beginning. Shankara also stressed on the path of knowledge. The path of direct devotion has certain loop holes in practice. The first problem is that in the direct devotion, the devotee cannot be continuously in the devotion for all the time. The soul always needs some gap or some diversion in a continuous phase. When such diversion to world or gap comes in, immediately Maya (Illusion of feelings and forms) will catch the soul. The devotion is like the state of drinking divine wine by which one is certainly detached from the worldly problems. But one cannot be continuously drinking the wine. Whenever, a gap comes in, the forgotten problems attack him immediately. In order to protect the self from such attack, one cannot resort to the same devotion because continuity of anything bores, be it the divine nectar (Amrutam). This is the psychology of human beings. Therefore, something different from the devotion is needed to resist the Maya. On such occasion, the spiritual knowledge is useful. The analysis of Maya is a part of the path of the self-attainment. Therefore, the devotion integrated with the divine knowledge is the best path to resist Maya continuously. By the divine knowledge, the Maya is resisted and the strength in resistance is by God’s grace, which is attained only by devotion. Therefore, knowledge without devotion fails in practice though theoretically it is sufficient. You can know the truth by the knowledge. But to implement the truth in practice, the grace of God is required. Without practice there is no fruit for mere theoretical devotion. Infact, knowledge leads to devotion and strengthens it further. You may argue that exceptional devotees are always in continuous devotion and do not require the knowledge. But without knowledge, where is the devotion? Rukmini developed devotion to Krishna only after attaining the details about Krishna from Narada which constitute the knowledge. If you find some devotee entering in to devotion directly like Gopikas, the devotee must have had knowledge in the previous birth. Gopikas were great scholars in the previous births who were sages. Even Prahlada heard knowledge from Narada while he was existing in the womb of his mother. Hanuman acquired knowledge from Sun before becoming devotee to Rama. The hunter Kannappa was Arjuna in the previous birth and heard the Gita. Sabari had the knowledge from the sage Matanga. All these exceptional devotees had the devotion from knowledge only. Due to this reason only, Shankara representing knowledge came first. Next came Ramanuja, who represented the devotion. Atlast Madhva came, who represented the service to Lord, which is the practical devotion. Therefore, knowledge of God is a pre-requisite for devotion like the water and fertilizer for the seed to generate the plant. Simply by hearing the word God, you cannot develop devotion on God without knowing the details of God. at the lotus feet of datta swami surya Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 5, 2007 Report Share Posted February 5, 2007 "Therefore, knowledge of God is a pre-requisite for devotion like the water and fertilizer for the seed to generate the plant. " I think its the other way round. In fact Devotion is a pre-requisite to knowledge, otherwise dry knowledge can lead to inflated EGO. Continuous devotion or surrender (Tel-dhara-vat) is the ultimate state, which comes with constant practice and Divine Grace. radhakutir OM - "prakki surya" <dattapr2000 > <> Wednesday, January 31, 2007 10:29 PM Re: Path of Knowledge - - - Lord Krishna started the Gita with the path of knowledge only in the second chapter itself which is the beginning. Shankara also stressed on the path of knowledge. The path of direct devotion has certain loop holes in practice. The first problem is that in the direct devotion, the devotee cannot be continuously in the devotion for all the time. The soul always needs some gap or some diversion in a continuous phase. When such diversion to world or gap comes in, immediately Maya (Illusion of feelings and forms) will catch the soul. The devotion is like the state of drinking divine wine by which one is certainly detached from the worldly problems. But one cannot be continuously drinking the wine. Whenever, a gap comes in, the forgotten problems attack him immediately. In order to protect the self from such attack, one cannot resort to the same devotion because continuity of anything bores, be it the divine nectar (Amrutam). This is the psychology of human beings. Therefore, something different from the devotion is needed to resist the Maya. On such occasion, the spiritual knowledge is useful. The analysis of Maya is a part of the path of the self-attainment. Therefore, the devotion integrated with the divine knowledge is the best path to resist Maya continuously. By the divine knowledge, the Maya is resisted and the strength in resistance is by God's grace, which is attained only by devotion. Therefore, knowledge without devotion fails in practice though theoretically it is sufficient. You can know the truth by the knowledge. But to implement the truth in practice, the grace of God is required. Without practice there is no fruit for mere theoretical devotion. Infact, knowledge leads to devotion and strengthens it further. You may argue that exceptional devotees are always in continuous devotion and do not require the knowledge. But without knowledge, where is the devotion? Rukmini developed devotion to Krishna only after attaining the details about Krishna from Narada which constitute the knowledge. If you find some devotee entering in to devotion directly like Gopikas, the devotee must have had knowledge in the previous birth. Gopikas were great scholars in the previous births who were sages. Even Prahlada heard knowledge from Narada while he was existing in the womb of his mother. Hanuman acquired knowledge from Sun before becoming devotee to Rama. The hunter Kannappa was Arjuna in the previous birth and heard the Gita. Sabari had the knowledge from the sage Matanga. All these exceptional devotees had the devotion from knowledge only. Due to this reason only, Shankara representing knowledge came first. Next came Ramanuja, who represented the devotion. Atlast Madhva came, who represented the service to Lord, which is the practical devotion. Therefore, knowledge of God is a pre-requisite for devotion like the water and fertilizer for the seed to generate the plant. Simply by hearing the word God, you cannot develop devotion on God without knowing the details of God. at the lotus feet of datta swami surya -- Version: 7.5.432 / Virus Database: 268.17.12/654 - Release 1/27/2007 5:02 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 6, 2007 Report Share Posted February 6, 2007 > I think its the other way round. In fact Devotion is a pre-requisite >to knowledge, otherwise dry knowledge can lead to inflated EGO. >Continuous devotion or surrender (Tel-dhara-vat) is the ultimate >state, which True, so true. Knowledge can be had through books, Satsang with like minded, lisenting to Guru etc. But there is absolutely **no** way to generate Bhakti from external means- Bhakti & Divine love can only come from the inside. At the extreme, however, Bhakti turns to Gyan, & Gyan to Bhakti. The problem with logic is our society is already too logical, & by using knowledge, we risk getting stuck in all the dangers of modern mind. Most people prefer Gyan Yoga, as they like the mental satisfaction they get by saying things like "Aham BrahsmiTat-twam-asi". After all, if you are already Brahma, you can just sit on your backside & do nothing all day! There is a story. A Swami went to Ramakrishna Paramhans. He brought his mistress with him. When Ramakrishna expressed disaproval, the Swami said that since all was Brahma, & the World is Mithya, it makes no difference whether he keeps a mistress or not! Ramakrishna said, I spit on such Vedant, but you cant fault the Logic of the swami. Thats the problem of knowledge without Bhakti & humility. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 7, 2007 Report Share Posted February 7, 2007 , radhakutir <radhaktr wrote: Thanks swamiji, This question has been raised many times, but it always ended undecided. Some say Devotion is pre-requisite to knowledge and; Some say knowledge is pre-requisite to devotion But there are cases where knowledge was acquired without devotion in the beginning; And there are cases where devotion was reached without any knowledge I feel none of them is pre-requisite to the other , and devotion and knowledge (wisdom- not the dry information), both come together... so there should be another pre-requisite to both !! with love baba Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 7, 2007 Report Share Posted February 7, 2007 True, Ramakrishna always spoke of the difference between ripe ego and unripe ego The swami with the mistress is a case of unripe ego ...where ideads like "Aham Brahsmi" are dangerous and leeds to avidya where as very advanced sadhaks with ripe ego do not fall into this trap. br Aditya Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 7, 2007 Report Share Posted February 7, 2007 Hmmmm, I think Sri Aurobindo also said something along same lines. The 1st thing is a inner will or force, that compels man to search for the Divine. This is not just a dissatisfaction with the material world, which might lead to religousness or the New age movement(things like Reiki, Hatha Yoga etc), but not necesaarily to the search for the Truth. The real spirituality starts when the soul gives a cry, & this cry is heard by the outer mental & emotional body. The person then starts working on this cry, either through Gyan(if his mind is stronger) or Bhakti(if his heart is stronger), but ultimately he has to develop both, as each is incomplete without the other. The inner will, that forces us to move on this path, exists in everyone, although most suppress it. But they cannot kill it completely, as it belongs to the soul, which is the only thing that survives the many deaths. Sometimes, this inner force becomes so strong that even great bandits like Valmiki have to become saints. This inner flame, is a small part of the Divine that rests in each person, & compels to them to search for their real identity. The Vedic Yagya was a process of increasing this inner flame, till it became strong enough to pull the Gods down from heaven. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 8, 2007 Report Share Posted February 8, 2007 - "beirut_ka_baba" <no_reply> wrote: "I feel none of them is pre-requisite to the other , and devotion and knowledge (wisdom- not the dry information), both come together... so there should be another pre-requisite to both !!" The other pre-requisite to both I believe is the Grace of the Lord, and for that again we need Devotion and Surrender to Him. My personal belief is that without devotion no Yoga can fructify. In the Gita Lord Krishna has emphasized time and again about Devotion and Surrender to Him. viz. 4.39 The man with faith and Devotion attains knowledge. 9.26 Whoever with devotion offers Me a leaf ........... I accept that. 9.27 Whatever you do .................... , offer it all to Me 9.34 Fix your mind on Me, be devoted to Me, ...................... and entirely depending upon Me, you shall come to Me. 10.9 With their minds fixed on Me and their lives surrendered to Me, ............., My devotees take delight in Me. 10.10 On those ever united with Me and worshipping Me with love, I confer that Yoga of wisdom through which they come to Me. 10.11 In order to shower My grace on them I, dwelling in their hearts , dispel the darkness born of ignorance by the shining light of wisdom. 18.56 The Karamayogi, who depends on Me, attains My grace ................ 18.57 Mentally resigning all your duties to Me .................... be solely devoted to Me and constantly give your mind to Me. 18.58 With your mind thus given to Me, you shall tide over all difficulties by My grace. ............. 18.62 Take shelter in Him alone with all your being, Arjuna. By His mere grace you shall attain supreme peace and the eternal state (abode). 18.65 Give your mind to Me, be devoted to me, worship Me and bow to Me. Doing so you will come to Me. .......... 18.66 Resigning all your duties to me ................take refuge in Me alone, I will liberate you of all sins, grieve not. radhakutir OM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 9, 2007 Report Share Posted February 9, 2007 , radhakutir <radhaktr wrote: > The other pre-requisite to both I believe is the Grace of the Lord, and for > that again we need Devotion and Surrender to Him. My personal belief is that > without devotion no Yoga can fructify. > Thanks swamiji for the reply Then does it not become a Catch 22 situation ? For God's grace we need devotion and for devotion we need God's Grace !! The main criteria for having God's Grace is our devotion and surrender... and to make ourself devoted and surrendered...we need HIS Grace!! So How does God decide, on whom He will shower his Grace...and on whom He will not ! with my pranamas baba Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 9, 2007 Report Share Posted February 9, 2007 Om Nama shivaya. If pre-requisite is devotion or knowledge, or even if there exists a pre-requisite for these two what does the following conversation teach us? An interesting conversation between Swami Vivekananda and a friend of his. Friend : Swami , why are you so focused on Humanitary services, welfare and charity, even though you are aware of that all these are governed by the Maya Sakthi ( Illusion)? Instead the prime goal should be to get rid the Maya TIES and proceed towards moksha. Swami Vivekananda : My friend, Even the thought of proceeding towards Moksha again is under the governence by the same maya sakthi. Vedanta clearly explains all the souls always are in state of Moksha, so what does it mean working towards Moksha. Thanks for your replies. Shivaya Nama Aum. Thiruchitrambalam. Senthil. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 12, 2007 Report Share Posted February 12, 2007 "so what does it mean working towards Moksha." Making the indivisual mind realise that the soul is anyway in a stateof moksha regards Aditya Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 13, 2007 Report Share Posted February 13, 2007 , Aditya Mukhopadhyay <rivu03 wrote: > > "so what does it mean working towards Moksha." > > Making the indivisual mind realise that the soul is anyway in a stateof moksha > > regards > > Aditya > What individual mind, and what soul? Is not the whole of manifestation actually the state of moksha? Or are there actually seperate beings within the omnipresent one? If so, how can the seperate beings exist and how can the omnipresent be omnipresent? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 13, 2007 Report Share Posted February 13, 2007 , Aditya Mukhopadhyay <rivu03 wrote: > > "so what does it mean working towards Moksha." > > Making the indivisual mind realise that the soul is anyway in a stateof moksha > > regards > > Aditya Yes aditya ! you gave the reply yourself. Moksha is a tricky word. It is not an absolute term, as it can be used only in relative terms. The human being of today is a Manomaya Prani... his consciousness is focused on Mind (Like animals focus is on Pranamaya body and plants are focussed in Subconsc or chitta)....So as long as we are focussed in Mind...we need Moksha. Even if when we would be focused at Vigyanmaya Sharir, we need Moksha Soul is ever free and it does not need Moksha... it is the focus of consciousness which decides our destiny. Like Hanumanji said I am slave of Ram,if I talk from bodily consciousness, I am a part of Ram, if I talk from soul (Jiva) consciousness, and I am Ram myslef If i see from Brahmm consciousness. love baba Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 13, 2007 Report Share Posted February 13, 2007 True Babaji. Most people turn to God when their desires arent fulfilled, & they are frustrated. Some people want some sort of a "Moksha" where they will be free of the misery & pain. Next day when they open a bottle of whiskey, or watch "Kyunki Saas bhi kabhi...." on TV, they get the "Moksha" they were looking for! I think Moksha is an overused term & should be replaced with something more sensible- like getting Pragya or Vigyan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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