What is the difference between Atman & mana

[Guest guest]

advaitin, "Dhananjaya Agrawal"

<dhananjayaagrawal wrote:

>

> Om Om Sh. Subrahmanian ji,

> But another question

> arises, and that is, if the pure mind is Atman then what about

other Jivas,

> because all other Jivas must have Atman, but they can't have Atman

in the

> form of mind, because that is something special has been blessed

to human

> beings only and probably that is why it is said that human birth

is the

> gateway for liberation?

>

 

Namaste,

 

Let me presume by 'other Jivas' you mean other living beings that

are of non-human species. The scriptural position is: Every jiva,

human or otherwise, has a mind, antahkaran. It is this that

transmigrates from birth to birth, the bodies only differ. The mind

alone carries its past tendencies, karma, etc. and accumulates to

that stock. It is only because every jiva has a mind, it is

possible for it to undergo bhoga; sukha and duhkha, as per its

previous karma. The speciality with the human mind is that it has

the capacity to discriminate, think about its future evolution

spiritually, etc. That is why the human birth becomes the gateway

for liberation. It would not be wrong to say that Atman alone

appears as the mind in the state of bondage (for every jiva) and the

mind itself is taken to be one's self, Atman by the ignorant jivas.

This is evidenced in 'i am happy, sad, joyful, i feel dull, elated,

i feel remorseful, i am jealous, etc., etc.' which are all the

properties of the mind alone. One appropriates all these to oneself

due to non-discrimination. Upon realization of the Truth, for the

Jnani there is no separate thing called mind.

 

> > mana Eva manuShyANAm kAraNam bandha-mokShayOH |

> > bandhAya viShayAsaktam muktyair-nirviShayam smRtam ||

 

A small correction in the above verse: the word 'muktyair-

nirviShayam' should be read as 'muktyai nirviShayam'. The error is

regretted.

 

> > Warm regards,

> > subbu

> > Om Tat Sat

> >

[Guest guest]

Dhananjaya-ji,

 

As the learned members have already stated, the mind has several

components. It has also been pointed out that it is the faculty of

buddhi, the discriminating power which helps reason.

 

In the book "The Logic Of The Unconcious Mind", Bradby talks about a

praying mantis which makes a nest for her eggs to survive the winter,

by beating it into a foam and imprisoning bubbles of air. He also

mentions that it is only recently we humans have discovered that a

blanket of cells act as a good non conductor of heat. But can we take

this as Buddhi, an example of reasoning power. He says no, it is

purely driven by instinct. The praying mantis is not reasoning out the

attions and the outcome. He describes such actions as irrational as

regards to intent but rational as regards to the effect.

 

He also talks about a spider after laying eggs, weaves by an elaborate

process a white silk pill - a case for the eggs. This case is taken

from her and a little bit of cork is introduced, whereupon she rushes

at this bit of cork, embraces it, "never leaving it day or night, and

defending it with a courage that strikes the beholder with awe".

Poignant as the example is, it is given as another example of instinct.

 

This is to explain that many actions of animals might be driven by

instinct than by reason. Animals do have a mind, otherwise how would

they eat, walk around without bumping into something etc. Of course

all animals are not purely driven by instinct but have varying degrees

of Buddhi or reasoning power but it is generally believed that man has

the highest reasoning power. (In contrast, there are many activities

going on in our body like digesting or or in mind like the feeling of

love which are not driven by reason).

 

Regards,

Ravi

 

 

advaitin, "subrahmanian_v" <subrahmanian_v

wrote:

>

> advaitin, "Dhananjaya Agrawal"

> <dhananjayaagrawal@> wrote:

> >

> > Om Om Sh. Subrahmanian ji,

> > But another question

> > arises, and that is, if the pure mind is Atman then what about

> other Jivas,

> > because all other Jivas must have Atman, but they can't have Atman

> in the

> > form of mind, because that is something special has been blessed

> to human

> > beings only and probably that is why it is said that human birth

> is the

> > gateway for liberation?

> >

[Guest guest]

advaitin <advaitin> ,

"subrahmanian_v" <subrahmanian_v wrote:

>The scriptural position is: Every jiva, human or otherwise, has a mind,

antahkaran. It is this that transmigrates from birth to birth, the

bodies only differ. The mind alone carries its past >tendencies,

karma, etc. and accumulates to that stock.

> > > Warm regards,

> > > subbu

> > > Om Tat Sat

 

 

Sri Subramanian Ji,

 

Your above explanation cleared a few doubts I have. However, the

understanding is still clouded.

 

These are the doubts I have. I am putting them as numbered points so

that I am clear on what I am asking.

 

1. What I think my "Atman" is nothing but Brahman

2. As Ananda Wood Ji defined, "Atman" refers to an inmost self that

is pure spirit, at the

living centre of each person's body, sense and mind.

3. This Atman is like a wave in ocean, each wave representing each

Jiva and Ocean itself is Brahman

4. Body-Mind-Intellect are instrumental in guiding "Atman" towards

Liberation

5. I used think that when Body dies, both the Mind and Intellect also

cease to exist. But your explanation above cleared that

misunderstanding. "Mind" also transmigrates from birth to birth, of

course without "Memories". It also indicates that Vaasanas and Gunas are

part of Mind?

6. My Indivuality is My Atman along with My Mind. When this Body

dies, since Mind also transmigrates, will "I" retain my individuality in

the next birth? Or putting it in another way, the good/bad that I

accumulated in this birth directly effect only "My Atman" alone in the

next birth in the form of "Karma" and no one else. That is, in the end I

am directly responsible for my own liberation and no other Jiva else.

7. The problem that I face in the above point (6) is that My Atman is

trapped in multiple "Bodies" - Single "Mind" and Multiple (?)

"Intellect" till it Liberates.

8. From Point 5 above, it appears that "Mind" is very important

friend of "Atman", keeping company through out birth cycles and even in

Heaven and Brahma Loka. Mind is the vehicle without which Atman can't

Liberate.

 

Dear Advaitin members, please correct my statements above and clarify my

doubts.

 

 

 

Thank you very much

 

Sudesh Pillutla

[Guest guest]

Namaste, Sudesh-ji,

 

I have copied your mail below. I shall try to answer the doubts

raised step by step. My answers are given within parentheses [..].

Don't think my answers are thorough. There are two obstacles to their

thoroughness: one is my own ignorance and the second is the fact that

I am trying to go your own way of expressing things and that may not

be the best way to communicate such Vedantic thoughts.

 

 

1. What I think my "Atman" is nothing but Brahman

[Correct. The word `my' is confusing. The point will be clear as

you go down to the rest of the answers]

 

2. As Ananda Wood Ji defined, "Atman" refers to an inmost self that

is pure spirit, at the living centre of each person's body, sense and

mind.

 

3. This Atman is like a wave in ocean, each wave representing each

Jiva and Ocean itself is Brahman

[The method of analogy is in the advaita tradition. But

comparing `waves' to the Atman and thereby implying all the Atman

waves emanate from Brahman (the ocean) is wrong. Atman and Brahman

are the same, though it may be difficult to believe so. The waves

from the ocean may be compared to the different Jivas. Jiva is

individualised. Atman with the matter envelope of mind, body, and

intellect is Jiva. When the envelope is gone, there is only the

Atman. This does not mean that the Atman is sitting inside the Jiva

as the nucleus is sitting inside the atom. Atman pervades everything;

Jiva and the matter envelope are only waves that come and go.]

 

 

4. Body-Mind-Intellect are instrumental in guiding "Atman" towards

Liberation

[Replace "Atman" by Jiva]

 

5. I used think that when Body dies, both the Mind and Intellect also

cease to exist. But your explanation above cleared that

misunderstanding. "Mind" also transmigrates from birth to birth, of

course without "Memories". It also indicates that Vaasanas and Gunas

are part of Mind?

[Yes]

 

6. My Indivuality is My Atman along with My Mind. When this Body

dies, since Mind also transmigrates, will "I" retain my individuality

in the next birth? Or putting it in another way, the good/bad that I

accumulated in this birth directly effect only "My Atman" alone in the

next birth in the form of "Karma" and no one else. That is, in the

end I am directly responsible for my own liberation and no other Jiva

else.

[Replace the word "Atman" by `Jiva'. Your use of the word "I" needs

a lot of comment, but for the present let us ignore it.]

 

7. The problem that I face in the above point (6) is that My Atman is

trapped in multiple "Bodies" - Single "Mind" and Multiple (?)

"Intellect" till it Liberates.

 

[it is not the Atman that is trapped; it is the Jiva that is

trapped. Your mind travels to all successive jIvas but what it

carries is not the whole mind with all its memories, but the vAsanAs

which give a distinct character to the mind]

 

8. From Point 5 above, it appears that "Mind" is very important

friend of "Atman", keeping company through out birth cycles and even

in Heaven and Brahma Loka. Mind is the vehicle without which Atman

can't Liberate.

 

[`Luggage' would be a better word than `friend' above. In its

transmigratory journey from life to life, the Jiva carries a big

luggage, namely the mind with its vAsanAs. The lighter this luggage,

the sooner there will be an opportunity for liberation.]

 

PraNAms to all advaitins

profvk

[Guest guest]

advaitin, "V. Krishnamurthy" <profvk

wrote:

>

> Namaste, Sudesh-ji,

>

> 8. From Point 5 above, it appears that "Mind" is very important

> friend of "Atman", keeping company through out birth cycles and

even

> in Heaven and Brahma Loka. Mind is the vehicle without which Atman

> can't Liberate.

>

> [`Luggage' would be a better word than `friend' above. In its

> transmigratory journey from life to life, the Jiva carries a big

> luggage, namely the mind with its vAsanAs. The lighter this

luggage,

> the sooner there will be an opportunity for liberation.]

>

> PraNAms to all advaitins

> profvk

>

 

 

Namaste All,

 

Just one other perspective on the above:

 

The mind is indeed spoken of as a friend that can lead the aspirant

to liberation. The Gita 6th chapter verses 5,6 and 7 teach this

idea. The Shankara BhAShya and the explanations of other Acharyas

could be read for great benefit. As the mind is the only

significant instrument in the path of sadhana, one has to 'befriend'

the mind in all dharmic ways to get its prasaada. If the mind does

not cooperate, any amount of teaching by the best Guru will be

futile.

 

One more point to note: Jiva is defined as Atman (Consciousness)

delimited by the mind - 'antaHkaraNa-avcchinnam chaitanyam jIvaH'.

 

Pranams,

subbu

Om Tat Sat

[Guest guest]

Subbuji :

 

Ananta koti Namaskarams !

 

i wonder how i missed this brillianr 'response' from Subbuji ...

 

i agree with you wholeheartedly Subbuji when you claim

"The mind is indeed spoken of as a friend that can lead the aspirant

to liberation."

 

Yes , it is an 'enemy' to those who do not know how to control it

but is a great 'friend' to those who know how to 'control' it !

Rather , it is a great instrument in the path of Sadhanaa! Without

the 'mind' how can we ever wver discover our True nature ( Atma

swarupa) !

 

Swami Vivekananda says in his brilliant introduction to Raja yoga "

The powers of the mind are like rays of light dissipated; when they

are concentrated, they illumine."

 

For those of you who are interested on this subject of how to

control the mind and 'purify' it , here is a link

 

http://www.yoga-age.com/modern/mind.html

 

 

i would also like to recall verse 28 . chapter 5 from the

Srimad Bhagvat gita

 

yatendriya-mano-buddhir

munir moksa-parayanah

vigateccha-bhaya-krodho

yah sada mukta eva sah

 

With senses, mind and intellect (ever) controlled, having liberation

as his Supreme Goal, free from desire, fear and anger --- the sage

is verily liberated for ever.

 

PLEAE ACCESS THE ADVAITIN FILES SECTION AND READ THE ENTIRE CHAPTER

5 AND G AND SWAMI CHINMAYANANDA'S EXPLAnation on MIND AND ITS ROLE

IN Brahma Vidya .

 

LET ME POSE A LIGHTHEARTED QUESTION TO YOU ALL - WOULD YOU EVER LIKE

TO LOSE YOUR MIND ? NO , NEVER , RIGHT ? The only way to lose one's

mind is to be always engazed in thinking of the Divine - be 'mad'

with Love for the god/ess ... ( THIS IS THE STATE OF 'MEERA' - LOVE

FOR HER GIRIDHARA GOPALA)

 

Here i would like to recall two verses from Adi shankara

bhagvadapada's PRATAH- SAMARANA - STOTRAM (A Morning Prayer)

 

 

Pratara bhajami manaso vachasam agamyam

Vacho vibhanti nikhila yadanugrahena

Ya neti neti vachanaih nirgama avochu

Tamdeva devam ajam achyutam ahuragryam (verse 2)

 

At dawn I sing the praise of That which is unattainable by mind and

speech, but by the grace of which all words shine. That which the

scriptures declares through the words `not this', `not this'- That

God of gods, they say, is unborn and un-changing.

 

 

 

Prátarnamami tamasaç paramarkavarïam

pürnam sanátanapadam puruúottamakhyam

yasminnidam jagadasesam asesamurtau

rajjvam bhujamgama iuva pratibhasitam vai.

 

At dawn I bow to that which is called the Highest Self which is

beyond darkness, of the hue of the Sun the ancient goal which is the

plenum - That, the residuless form (i.e. the whole) in which the

entire universe is made manifest like a serpent in a rope.

 

www.kamakoti.org

 

Yes! Dear hearts ! this human body has been given to us for only

purpose to engaze our body - mind and intellect in realizing our

True nature which is in the nature of sat chit ananda ( Truth

consciousness and bliss)

 

KeeP your Body FIT , Mind PURE and Intellect Bright, you will

discover the divinity within!

 

i would like all members to read Chandogya upanishad where it is

Said

 

". 'The one who worships mind as brahman wins freedom to move as far

as mind can go—the one who worships mind as brahman.' "

 

yes ! in Brahma vidya , all faculties are important - THINKING,

UNDERSTANDING , MEDITATION , MEMORY ETC ETC ETC ....

 

Aum Shanti! Shanti! Shantihi !

 

MAKE THE BMI INSTRUMENTS IN YOUR SADHANAA - NOT AS OBSTACLES! ,

[Guest guest]

Priya Atman!

 

i forgot to add this beautiful verse from KATHA upanishad in my post

 

"Know that the Self is like the Lord of the chariot, and the body is

his chariot. Know that the intellect is the charioteer and the mind

the reins. The senses, they say, are the horses, the objects of the

senses their roads. When the Self is in union with the body, the

senses and the mind, the wise call Him the enjoyer."

 

(Sunderji - please provide sanskrit version ) i am learning

Samskritam now!

 

May i request all learned members of this august group to discuss

the significance of this verse in the context of this beautiful

discussion on 'Atman and Manas' ?

 

AND FURTHERMORE , PLEASE read these last two verses in chapter 3 ---

simply delightful !

 

indriyani parany ahur

indriyebhyah param manah

manasas tu para buddhir

yo buddheh paratas tu sah (verse 42)

 

Swami Chinamayananda's translation ( Advaitin files)

 

They say that the senses are superior (to the body) ; superior to

the senses is the mind; superior to the mind is the intellect; one

who is even superior to the intellect is He, (the Atman ) .

 

 

evam buddheh param buddhva

samstabhyatmanam atmana

jahi satrum maha-baho

kama-rupam durasadam (VERSE 43)

 

TRaNSLATION

 

Thus knowing Him, who is superior to intellect, and restraining the

self by the Self, slay you, O mighty-armed, the enemy in the form

of 'desire, ' no doubt hard indeed to conquer

 

 

Who is this 'Him' that is being discussed here ! He is none other

than the 'PURUSHA' of the Purusha Sukta - Sriman Narayana! one of

the names of Sri vishnu in Sri Vishnu Sahasaranama is

 

'nivRttAtmA '

Om nivRttAtmane namah.

 

Earlier Sri Ramji gave the beautiful analaogy of the two birds from

the Mundaka upanishad ...

 

dvA suparNA sayujA sakhAyA samAnam vRksham parishasvajAte |

tayoranyahpippalam svAdvat-anaSnan-anyo abhicAkaSIti || (muNDa. 2.1.)

 

The above sloka talks of two birds, one representing the paramAtmA

and the other the jIvAtmA, one watching and shining brilliantly,

while the other enjoys the fruits of the karma. It thus illustrates

the different nature of the superiorSoul, who turns away from the

enjoyment that the jIva goes after (nivRtta -anaSnan).

 

http:// home.comcast.net/~chinnamma/sahasra/sloka83.htm

 

Have a great Friday folks - turn to 'anthamukhi '

 

ps : btw . Sadaji , it is all the more 'alluring' when a

vishshtadvaitin turned advaitin teaches vedanta - it rings all the

more True !

 

om Tat Sat

[Guest guest]

Shraddhey shri Dhyan Saraswati ji Om Om,

Here I am posting the Sanskrit version of this syllable from

kathopanishad.

 

AatmanaM rathinaM viddhi sharIraM rathmevatu.

buddhiM tu sArathiM viddhi manah pragrah mev ch.

 

IndriyAni hayAnAhurvishyAsteshu gocharAn.

Atmendriy mano yuktaM bhokte tyAhurmanIshinah.

 

There are 2-3 more syllables in this particular series of

kathopanishad, but since you wrote the English translation only of 2

syllables, I am putting only those two. thank you. Dhananjaya.

 

 

advaitin, "dhyanasaraswati"

<dhyanasaraswati wrote:

>

> Priya Atman!

>

> i forgot to add this beautiful verse from KATHA upanishad in my

post

>

> "Know that the Self is like the Lord of the chariot, and the body

is

> his chariot. Know that the intellect is the charioteer and the

mind

> the reins. The senses, they say, are the horses, the objects of

the

> senses their roads. When the Self is in union with the body, the

> senses and the mind, the wise call Him the enjoyer."

>

> (Sunderji - please provide sanskrit version ) i am learning

> Samskritam now!

>

> May i request all learned members of this august group to discuss

> the significance of this verse in the context of this beautiful

> discussion on 'Atman and Manas' ?

>

> AND FURTHERMORE , PLEASE read these last two verses in chapter 3 --

-

> simply delightful !

>

> indriyani parany ahur

> indriyebhyah param manah

> manasas tu para buddhir

> yo buddheh paratas tu sah (verse 42)

>

> Swami Chinamayananda's translation ( Advaitin files)

>

> They say that the senses are superior (to the body) ; superior to

> the senses is the mind; superior to the mind is the intellect; one

> who is even superior to the intellect is He, (the Atman ) .

>

>

> evam buddheh param buddhva

> samstabhyatmanam atmana

> jahi satrum maha-baho

> kama-rupam durasadam (VERSE 43)

>

> TRaNSLATION

>

> Thus knowing Him, who is superior to intellect, and restraining

the

> self by the Self, slay you, O mighty-armed, the enemy in the form

> of 'desire, ' no doubt hard indeed to conquer

>

>

> Who is this 'Him' that is being discussed here ! He is none

other

> than the 'PURUSHA' of the Purusha Sukta - Sriman Narayana! one of

> the names of Sri vishnu in Sri Vishnu Sahasaranama is

>

> 'nivRttAtmA '

>

> Om nivRttAtmane namah.

>

> Earlier Sri Ramji gave the beautiful analaogy of the two birds

from

> the Mundaka upanishad ...

>

> dvA suparNA sayujA sakhAyA samAnam vRksham parishasvajAte |

> tayoranyahpippalam svAdvat-anaSnan-anyo abhicAkaSIti || (muNDa.

2.1.)

>

> The above sloka talks of two birds, one representing the paramAtmA

> and the other the jIvAtmA, one watching and shining brilliantly,

> while the other enjoys the fruits of the karma. It thus

illustrates

> the different nature of the superiorSoul, who turns away from the

> enjoyment that the jIva goes after (nivRtta -anaSnan).

>

> http:// home.comcast.net/~chinnamma/sahasra/sloka83.htm

>

> Have a great Friday folks - turn to 'anthamukhi '

>

> ps : btw . Sadaji , it is all the more 'alluring' when a

> vishshtadvaitin turned advaitin teaches vedanta - it rings all the

> more True !

>

> om Tat Sat

>

[Guest guest]

H.N.Sreenivasa Murthy

Pranams to all.

 

Dear members,

What is the difference between Atman ana Manas?

Do we not know thoughts arising and dying?

Do we not know feelings arising and dying?

What is Manas but thoughts and feelings.

WE ARE THE KNOWERS/ Illuminors OF THOUGHTS AND FEELINGS.

THOUGHTS AND FEELINGS ARE KNOWN BY US.

The Knower is distinct from Known.

The knower is the SUBJECT and the

Known is OBJECT.

The subject is dRuk and the and the

object is dRuSya.

Sri Sankara says "Atman means our TRUE NATURE"

(AtmA hi nAma svarUpam ||).

Hence we are ATMAN.

KNOW THIS TRUTH AND BE FREE.

THIS IS THE MESSAGE OF VEDANTA.

THERE IS NO HIGHER TEACHING THAN THIS.

 

With warm and respectful regards,

Sreenivasa Murthy.