Guest guest Posted August 30, 2006 Report Share Posted August 30, 2006 Mythology and history are full of instances and illustrations which make one step back and wonder if a "figure" or 'icon' of a certain *time* was truly bad or good, or exclusively one way or another. The observer (the one who stepped back) may see that the two polar opposite views are just that: views/perspectives/interpretations all subject to change! Robin Hood was bad for some, good for some, so were more contemporary historical figures and even some not so recent religious figures and awataars. The human reality is in the perception. The human perception is never comprehensive and all-inclusive or all- considering -- thus the Maya, the illusion. Nodes! What-you-want/need-to-see-and-are-ready-to-see-is-what-you-get! Even something so concrete as jyotish charts are seen with so many different filters! Need I say more? But that is the better and more concrete end of Maya, in case you are concerned about interpretations and misinterpretations!! Astrological interpretation (any kind) can be like watching and describing an ice-cube that has landed on a hot frying pan, or tawaa. The water is indestructible, but the ice-cube is not! RR , "manpreetchaman" <manpreetchaman wrote: > > Dear all learned Astrologers > > As we know, Rahu was a Demon who took AMRIT and become immortal and > Head part is called Rahu and rest part is KETU. > > After reading a lot about Rahu, my impression goes about him is that > RAHU is infact a Super Intelligent Planet but his intelligence is used > in wrong ways. Along with that Rahu works as a Multiplier force, he > multiplies the results of the planet he relates with. > > But i still not got the proper idea to deal with it while reading > Horoscopes. > > Can anyone throw some light on this as HOw to interpret RAHU/KETU. > > Warm Regards > > Manpreet Singh > 9871173731 > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 30, 2006 Report Share Posted August 30, 2006 Good to see you back,Sir! This is why Rahu is so inscrutable, creating magical figures, illuminating with changing colors. In my opinion, if Rahu or the nodes need to be described in one word, I would use "change" regards Rishi , "crystal pages" <jyotish_vani wrote: > > Mythology and history are full of instances and illustrations which > make one step back and wonder if a "figure" or 'icon' of a certain > *time* was truly bad or good, or exclusively one way or another. The > observer (the one who stepped back) may see that the two polar > opposite views are just that: views/perspectives/interpretations all > subject to change! > > Robin Hood was bad for some, good for some, so were more contemporary > historical figures and even some not so recent religious figures and > awataars. The human reality is in the perception. > > The human perception is never comprehensive and all-inclusive or all- > considering -- thus the Maya, the illusion. Nodes! > > What-you-want/need-to-see-and-are-ready-to-see-is-what-you-get! > > Even something so concrete as jyotish charts are seen with so many > different filters! Need I say more? But that is the better and more > concrete end of Maya, in case you are concerned about interpretations > and misinterpretations!! > > Astrological interpretation (any kind) can be like watching and > describing an ice-cube that has landed on a hot frying pan, or tawaa. > The water is indestructible, but the ice-cube is not! > > RR > > > > > > , "manpreetchaman" > <manpreetchaman@> wrote: > > > > Dear all learned Astrologers > > > > As we know, Rahu was a Demon who took AMRIT and become immortal and > > Head part is called Rahu and rest part is KETU. > > > > After reading a lot about Rahu, my impression goes about him is > that > > RAHU is infact a Super Intelligent Planet but his intelligence is > used > > in wrong ways. Along with that Rahu works as a Multiplier force, > he > > multiplies the results of the planet he relates with. > > > > But i still not got the proper idea to deal with it while reading > > Horoscopes. > > > > Can anyone throw some light on this as HOw to interpret RAHU/KETU. > > > > Warm Regards > > > > Manpreet Singh > > 9871173731 > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 31, 2006 Report Share Posted August 31, 2006 Never left! Could I ever? Do I have that choice?? Change and Shadow are the two keywords! Bring the two together and you have unpredictability, up to the hilt! Is unpredictability about what broadsides one unexpectedly? Or is it just one more variable that must be added to the "software" and taken into consideration the next time? Astrology is not about absolute predictability, but just knowing and understanding that the *magic forest* we have chosen to explore has more surprises than our life experiences and scriptural experiences influence and convince us! May your reality be different and easier than mine! RR , "rishi_2000in" <rishi_2000in wrote: > > Good to see you back,Sir! > This is why Rahu is so inscrutable, creating magical figures, > illuminating with changing colors. > In my opinion, if Rahu or the nodes need to be described in one > word, I would use "change" > regards > > Rishi > > , "crystal pages" > <jyotish_vani@> wrote: > > > > Mythology and history are full of instances and illustrations which > > make one step back and wonder if a "figure" or 'icon' of a certain > > *time* was truly bad or good, or exclusively one way or another. > The > > observer (the one who stepped back) may see that the two polar > > opposite views are just that: views/perspectives/interpretations > all > > subject to change! > > > > Robin Hood was bad for some, good for some, so were more > contemporary > > historical figures and even some not so recent religious figures > and > > awataars. The human reality is in the perception. > > > > The human perception is never comprehensive and all-inclusive or > all- > > considering -- thus the Maya, the illusion. Nodes! > > > > What-you-want/need-to-see-and-are-ready-to-see-is-what-you-get! > > > > Even something so concrete as jyotish charts are seen with so many > > different filters! Need I say more? But that is the better and more > > concrete end of Maya, in case you are concerned about > interpretations > > and misinterpretations!! > > > > Astrological interpretation (any kind) can be like watching and > > describing an ice-cube that has landed on a hot frying pan, or > tawaa. > > The water is indestructible, but the ice-cube is not! > > > > RR > > > > > > > > > > > > , "manpreetchaman" > > <manpreetchaman@> wrote: > > > > > > Dear all learned Astrologers > > > > > > As we know, Rahu was a Demon who took AMRIT and become immortal > and > > > Head part is called Rahu and rest part is KETU. > > > > > > After reading a lot about Rahu, my impression goes about him is > > that > > > RAHU is infact a Super Intelligent Planet but his intelligence is > > used > > > in wrong ways. Along with that Rahu works as a Multiplier force, > > he > > > multiplies the results of the planet he relates with. > > > > > > But i still not got the proper idea to deal with it while reading > > > Horoscopes. > > > > > > Can anyone throw some light on this as HOw to interpret RAHU/KETU. > > > > > > Warm Regards > > > > > > Manpreet Singh > > > 9871173731 > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 31, 2006 Report Share Posted August 31, 2006 The shadow stays with its original, only a perception. The change is a function of time, space and energy in real and not "real" terms! Rahu is the illusion but also creativity; it is unpredictable but also progress; it is imagination but also the impetus for growth Can it be alone, it needs another pole, that of Ketu, the end if rahu begins. The deatchment, the sheer defeat, the salvation, only words these but the symbol is more potent than words can be. Between the two, we oscillate, experiencing, troubling, get troubled! Scriptural references, Ranjanda, even more powerful symbols to whose mystery we add or give a bit of clarity. Isnt there a very strong and almost certain element of expectedness in the unpredictable?? May all our realities be as clear as the nodes are!! Aisi duvidha na ho ki maya aur ram mein se chunna pade. Maya to ram hi hain, dono hi milte hain. regards rishi , "crystal pages" <jyotish_vani wrote: > > Never left! > Could I ever? > Do I have that choice?? > > Change and Shadow are the two keywords! > > Bring the two together and you have unpredictability, up to the hilt! > > Is unpredictability about what broadsides one unexpectedly? Or is it > just one more variable that must be added to the "software" and taken > into consideration the next time? > > Astrology is not about absolute predictability, but just knowing and > understanding that the *magic forest* we have chosen to explore has > more surprises than our life experiences and scriptural experiences > influence and convince us! > > May your reality be different and easier than mine! > > RR > > > > > , "rishi_2000in" > <rishi_2000in@> wrote: > > > > Good to see you back,Sir! > > This is why Rahu is so inscrutable, creating magical figures, > > illuminating with changing colors. > > In my opinion, if Rahu or the nodes need to be described in one > > word, I would use "change" > > regards > > > > Rishi > > > > , "crystal pages" > > <jyotish_vani@> wrote: > > > > > > Mythology and history are full of instances and illustrations > which > > > make one step back and wonder if a "figure" or 'icon' of a > certain > > > *time* was truly bad or good, or exclusively one way or another. > > The > > > observer (the one who stepped back) may see that the two polar > > > opposite views are just that: views/perspectives/interpretations > > all > > > subject to change! > > > > > > Robin Hood was bad for some, good for some, so were more > > contemporary > > > historical figures and even some not so recent religious figures > > and > > > awataars. The human reality is in the perception. > > > > > > The human perception is never comprehensive and all-inclusive or > > all- > > > considering -- thus the Maya, the illusion. Nodes! > > > > > > What-you-want/need-to-see-and-are-ready-to-see-is-what-you-get! > > > > > > Even something so concrete as jyotish charts are seen with so > many > > > different filters! Need I say more? But that is the better and > more > > > concrete end of Maya, in case you are concerned about > > interpretations > > > and misinterpretations!! > > > > > > Astrological interpretation (any kind) can be like watching and > > > describing an ice-cube that has landed on a hot frying pan, or > > tawaa. > > > The water is indestructible, but the ice-cube is not! > > > > > > RR > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , "manpreetchaman" > > > <manpreetchaman@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Dear all learned Astrologers > > > > > > > > As we know, Rahu was a Demon who took AMRIT and become immortal > > and > > > > Head part is called Rahu and rest part is KETU. > > > > > > > > After reading a lot about Rahu, my impression goes about him is > > > that > > > > RAHU is infact a Super Intelligent Planet but his intelligence > is > > > used > > > > in wrong ways. Along with that Rahu works as a Multiplier > force, > > > he > > > > multiplies the results of the planet he relates with. > > > > > > > > But i still not got the proper idea to deal with it while > reading > > > > Horoscopes. > > > > > > > > Can anyone throw some light on this as HOw to interpret > RAHU/KETU. > > > > > > > > Warm Regards > > > > > > > > Manpreet Singh > > > > 9871173731 > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 31, 2006 Report Share Posted August 31, 2006 Dear Rishi, The 'astrological' shadow/Chayaa is created by the luminaries! We astrologers sometimes tend to forget that! Both must be treated as a yoked couple, neither would be effective as the "parent"lor karakas thereof! Need I say more -- on this august forum? RR , "rishi_2000in" <rishi_2000in wrote: > > The shadow stays with its original, only a perception. > The change is a function of time, space and energy in real and > not "real" terms! > Rahu is the illusion but also creativity; it is unpredictable but > also progress; it is imagination but also the impetus for growth > Can it be alone, it needs another pole, that of Ketu, the end if > rahu begins. The deatchment, the sheer defeat, the salvation, only > words these but the symbol is more potent than words can be. > Between the two, we oscillate, experiencing, troubling, get troubled! > > Scriptural references, Ranjanda, even more powerful symbols to whose > mystery we add or give a bit of clarity. > Isnt there a very strong and almost certain element of expectedness > in the unpredictable?? > > May all our realities be as clear as the nodes are!! > Aisi duvidha na ho ki maya aur ram mein se chunna pade. Maya to ram > hi hain, dono hi milte hain. > > regards > > rishi > > > > , "crystal pages" > <jyotish_vani@> wrote: > > > > Never left! > > Could I ever? > > Do I have that choice?? > > > > Change and Shadow are the two keywords! > > > > Bring the two together and you have unpredictability, up to the > hilt! > > > > Is unpredictability about what broadsides one unexpectedly? Or is > it > > just one more variable that must be added to the "software" and > taken > > into consideration the next time? > > > > Astrology is not about absolute predictability, but just knowing > and > > understanding that the *magic forest* we have chosen to explore > has > > more surprises than our life experiences and scriptural > experiences > > influence and convince us! > > > > May your reality be different and easier than mine! > > > > RR > > > > > > > > > > , "rishi_2000in" > > <rishi_2000in@> wrote: > > > > > > Good to see you back,Sir! > > > This is why Rahu is so inscrutable, creating magical figures, > > > illuminating with changing colors. > > > In my opinion, if Rahu or the nodes need to be described in one > > > word, I would use "change" > > > regards > > > > > > Rishi > > > > > > , "crystal pages" > > > <jyotish_vani@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Mythology and history are full of instances and illustrations > > which > > > > make one step back and wonder if a "figure" or 'icon' of a > > certain > > > > *time* was truly bad or good, or exclusively one way or > another. > > > The > > > > observer (the one who stepped back) may see that the two polar > > > > opposite views are just that: > views/perspectives/interpretations > > > all > > > > subject to change! > > > > > > > > Robin Hood was bad for some, good for some, so were more > > > contemporary > > > > historical figures and even some not so recent religious > figures > > > and > > > > awataars. The human reality is in the perception. > > > > > > > > The human perception is never comprehensive and all-inclusive > or > > > all- > > > > considering -- thus the Maya, the illusion. Nodes! > > > > > > > > What-you-want/need-to-see-and-are-ready-to-see-is-what-you- get! > > > > > > > > Even something so concrete as jyotish charts are seen with so > > many > > > > different filters! Need I say more? But that is the better and > > more > > > > concrete end of Maya, in case you are concerned about > > > interpretations > > > > and misinterpretations!! > > > > > > > > Astrological interpretation (any kind) can be like watching > and > > > > describing an ice-cube that has landed on a hot frying pan, or > > > tawaa. > > > > The water is indestructible, but the ice-cube is not! > > > > > > > > RR > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , "manpreetchaman" > > > > <manpreetchaman@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Dear all learned Astrologers > > > > > > > > > > As we know, Rahu was a Demon who took AMRIT and become > immortal > > > and > > > > > Head part is called Rahu and rest part is KETU. > > > > > > > > > > After reading a lot about Rahu, my impression goes about him > is > > > > that > > > > > RAHU is infact a Super Intelligent Planet but his > intelligence > > is > > > > used > > > > > in wrong ways. Along with that Rahu works as a Multiplier > > force, > > > > he > > > > > multiplies the results of the planet he relates with. > > > > > > > > > > But i still not got the proper idea to deal with it while > > reading > > > > > Horoscopes. > > > > > > > > > > Can anyone throw some light on this as HOw to interpret > > RAHU/KETU. > > > > > > > > > > Warm Regards > > > > > > > > > > Manpreet Singh > > > > > 9871173731 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 31, 2006 Report Share Posted August 31, 2006 Indeed! The luminaries are the twin energies; the yin n yang; the prakrati and purusha, the earth and the sky...... , "crystal pages" <jyotish_vani wrote: > > Dear Rishi, > > The 'astrological' shadow/Chayaa is created by the luminaries! > > We astrologers sometimes tend to forget that! > > Both must be treated as a yoked couple, neither would be effective as > the "parent"lor karakas thereof! > > Need I say more -- on this august forum? > > RR > > , "rishi_2000in" > <rishi_2000in@> wrote: > > > > The shadow stays with its original, only a perception. > > The change is a function of time, space and energy in real and > > not "real" terms! > > Rahu is the illusion but also creativity; it is unpredictable but > > also progress; it is imagination but also the impetus for growth > > Can it be alone, it needs another pole, that of Ketu, the end if > > rahu begins. The deatchment, the sheer defeat, the salvation, only > > words these but the symbol is more potent than words can be. > > Between the two, we oscillate, experiencing, troubling, get > troubled! > > > > Scriptural references, Ranjanda, even more powerful symbols to > whose > > mystery we add or give a bit of clarity. > > Isnt there a very strong and almost certain element of expectedness > > in the unpredictable?? > > > > May all our realities be as clear as the nodes are!! > > Aisi duvidha na ho ki maya aur ram mein se chunna pade. Maya to ram > > hi hain, dono hi milte hain. > > > > regards > > > > rishi > > > > > > > > , "crystal pages" > > <jyotish_vani@> wrote: > > > > > > Never left! > > > Could I ever? > > > Do I have that choice?? > > > > > > Change and Shadow are the two keywords! > > > > > > Bring the two together and you have unpredictability, up to the > > hilt! > > > > > > Is unpredictability about what broadsides one unexpectedly? Or is > > it > > > just one more variable that must be added to the "software" and > > taken > > > into consideration the next time? > > > > > > Astrology is not about absolute predictability, but just knowing > > and > > > understanding that the *magic forest* we have chosen to explore > > has > > > more surprises than our life experiences and scriptural > > experiences > > > influence and convince us! > > > > > > May your reality be different and easier than mine! > > > > > > RR > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , "rishi_2000in" > > > <rishi_2000in@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Good to see you back,Sir! > > > > This is why Rahu is so inscrutable, creating magical figures, > > > > illuminating with changing colors. > > > > In my opinion, if Rahu or the nodes need to be described in > one > > > > word, I would use "change" > > > > regards > > > > > > > > Rishi > > > > > > > > , "crystal pages" > > > > <jyotish_vani@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Mythology and history are full of instances and illustrations > > > which > > > > > make one step back and wonder if a "figure" or 'icon' of a > > > certain > > > > > *time* was truly bad or good, or exclusively one way or > > another. > > > > The > > > > > observer (the one who stepped back) may see that the two > polar > > > > > opposite views are just that: > > views/perspectives/interpretations > > > > all > > > > > subject to change! > > > > > > > > > > Robin Hood was bad for some, good for some, so were more > > > > contemporary > > > > > historical figures and even some not so recent religious > > figures > > > > and > > > > > awataars. The human reality is in the perception. > > > > > > > > > > The human perception is never comprehensive and all- inclusive > > or > > > > all- > > > > > considering -- thus the Maya, the illusion. Nodes! > > > > > > > > > > What-you-want/need-to-see-and-are-ready-to-see-is-what-you- > get! > > > > > > > > > > Even something so concrete as jyotish charts are seen with so > > > many > > > > > different filters! Need I say more? But that is the better > and > > > more > > > > > concrete end of Maya, in case you are concerned about > > > > interpretations > > > > > and misinterpretations!! > > > > > > > > > > Astrological interpretation (any kind) can be like watching > > and > > > > > describing an ice-cube that has landed on a hot frying pan, > or > > > > tawaa. > > > > > The water is indestructible, but the ice-cube is not! > > > > > > > > > > RR > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , "manpreetchaman" > > > > > <manpreetchaman@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear all learned Astrologers > > > > > > > > > > > > As we know, Rahu was a Demon who took AMRIT and become > > immortal > > > > and > > > > > > Head part is called Rahu and rest part is KETU. > > > > > > > > > > > > After reading a lot about Rahu, my impression goes about > him > > is > > > > > that > > > > > > RAHU is infact a Super Intelligent Planet but his > > intelligence > > > is > > > > > used > > > > > > in wrong ways. Along with that Rahu works as a Multiplier > > > force, > > > > > he > > > > > > multiplies the results of the planet he relates with. > > > > > > > > > > > > But i still not got the proper idea to deal with it while > > > reading > > > > > > Horoscopes. > > > > > > > > > > > > Can anyone throw some light on this as HOw to interpret > > > RAHU/KETU. > > > > > > > > > > > > Warm Regards > > > > > > > > > > > > Manpreet Singh > > > > > > 9871173731 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 31, 2006 Report Share Posted August 31, 2006 And, we would do well to remember Guru too as the third triad !! , "crystal pages" <jyotish_vani wrote: > > Dear Rishi, > > The 'astrological' shadow/Chayaa is created by the luminaries! > > We astrologers sometimes tend to forget that! > > Both must be treated as a yoked couple, neither would be effective as > the "parent"lor karakas thereof! > > Need I say more -- on this august forum? > > RR > > , "rishi_2000in" > <rishi_2000in@> wrote: > > > > The shadow stays with its original, only a perception. > > The change is a function of time, space and energy in real and > > not "real" terms! > > Rahu is the illusion but also creativity; it is unpredictable but > > also progress; it is imagination but also the impetus for growth > > Can it be alone, it needs another pole, that of Ketu, the end if > > rahu begins. The deatchment, the sheer defeat, the salvation, only > > words these but the symbol is more potent than words can be. > > Between the two, we oscillate, experiencing, troubling, get > troubled! > > > > Scriptural references, Ranjanda, even more powerful symbols to > whose > > mystery we add or give a bit of clarity. > > Isnt there a very strong and almost certain element of expectedness > > in the unpredictable?? > > > > May all our realities be as clear as the nodes are!! > > Aisi duvidha na ho ki maya aur ram mein se chunna pade. Maya to ram > > hi hain, dono hi milte hain. > > > > regards > > > > rishi > > > > > > > > , "crystal pages" > > <jyotish_vani@> wrote: > > > > > > Never left! > > > Could I ever? > > > Do I have that choice?? > > > > > > Change and Shadow are the two keywords! > > > > > > Bring the two together and you have unpredictability, up to the > > hilt! > > > > > > Is unpredictability about what broadsides one unexpectedly? Or is > > it > > > just one more variable that must be added to the "software" and > > taken > > > into consideration the next time? > > > > > > Astrology is not about absolute predictability, but just knowing > > and > > > understanding that the *magic forest* we have chosen to explore > > has > > > more surprises than our life experiences and scriptural > > experiences > > > influence and convince us! > > > > > > May your reality be different and easier than mine! > > > > > > RR > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , "rishi_2000in" > > > <rishi_2000in@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Good to see you back,Sir! > > > > This is why Rahu is so inscrutable, creating magical figures, > > > > illuminating with changing colors. > > > > In my opinion, if Rahu or the nodes need to be described in > one > > > > word, I would use "change" > > > > regards > > > > > > > > Rishi > > > > > > > > , "crystal pages" > > > > <jyotish_vani@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Mythology and history are full of instances and illustrations > > > which > > > > > make one step back and wonder if a "figure" or 'icon' of a > > > certain > > > > > *time* was truly bad or good, or exclusively one way or > > another. > > > > The > > > > > observer (the one who stepped back) may see that the two > polar > > > > > opposite views are just that: > > views/perspectives/interpretations > > > > all > > > > > subject to change! > > > > > > > > > > Robin Hood was bad for some, good for some, so were more > > > > contemporary > > > > > historical figures and even some not so recent religious > > figures > > > > and > > > > > awataars. The human reality is in the perception. > > > > > > > > > > The human perception is never comprehensive and all- inclusive > > or > > > > all- > > > > > considering -- thus the Maya, the illusion. Nodes! > > > > > > > > > > What-you-want/need-to-see-and-are-ready-to-see-is-what-you- > get! > > > > > > > > > > Even something so concrete as jyotish charts are seen with so > > > many > > > > > different filters! Need I say more? But that is the better > and > > > more > > > > > concrete end of Maya, in case you are concerned about > > > > interpretations > > > > > and misinterpretations!! > > > > > > > > > > Astrological interpretation (any kind) can be like watching > > and > > > > > describing an ice-cube that has landed on a hot frying pan, > or > > > > tawaa. > > > > > The water is indestructible, but the ice-cube is not! > > > > > > > > > > RR > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , "manpreetchaman" > > > > > <manpreetchaman@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear all learned Astrologers > > > > > > > > > > > > As we know, Rahu was a Demon who took AMRIT and become > > immortal > > > > and > > > > > > Head part is called Rahu and rest part is KETU. > > > > > > > > > > > > After reading a lot about Rahu, my impression goes about > him > > is > > > > > that > > > > > > RAHU is infact a Super Intelligent Planet but his > > intelligence > > > is > > > > > used > > > > > > in wrong ways. Along with that Rahu works as a Multiplier > > > force, > > > > > he > > > > > > multiplies the results of the planet he relates with. > > > > > > > > > > > > But i still not got the proper idea to deal with it while > > > reading > > > > > > Horoscopes. > > > > > > > > > > > > Can anyone throw some light on this as HOw to interpret > > > RAHU/KETU. > > > > > > > > > > > > Warm Regards > > > > > > > > > > > > Manpreet Singh > > > > > > 9871173731 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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