Bukowski

[Guest guest]

Hi Folks,

 

While I'm no expert on his writing or his chart, I am inclined towards

the 10.00 am chart (or morning generally) because he entered Saturn

dasha in 1975, the time when fame and some measure of success finally

came to him. Saturn is strong in his chart because it is in its own

sign in D10, Mercury lord of lagna is placed in Saturn's star in the

11th house.

 

Chris

[Guest guest]

Hi Chris,

 

Hope you've been well...and yes, Bukowski career started to take off

in the mid 70's. Good point!

 

The best of success to you.

 

Haizen

 

valist, "Christopher Kevill" <christopher.kevill wrote:

>

> Hi Folks,

>

> While I'm no expert on his writing or his chart, I am inclined towards

> the 10.00 am chart (or morning generally) because he entered Saturn

> dasha in 1975, the time when fame and some measure of success finally

> came to him. Saturn is strong in his chart because it is in its own

> sign in D10, Mercury lord of lagna is placed in Saturn's star in the

> 11th house.

>

> Chris

>

[Guest guest]

Hello Haizen,

 

you wrote:

 

> These are interesting points you raise about the 10 AM chart and thanks

> for sharing them. It would be interesting to know how Mr. Steinbrecker

> happened to get the birth certificate of this known recluse. If the source

> is mentioned, please share.

 

- You Americans know surely more about this, but I'm under the impression

that it's possible to get hands onto the birth records in some states, under

some conditions. In this way Ed Steinbrecher collected huge amounts of birth

data, picking them from the records, if I've understood correctly. Here's a

memorial about Steinbrecher

http://www.solsticepoint.com/astrologersmemorial/steinbrecher.html

 

You wrote (after I quoted some comments from classics about planets in the

12th house):

 

> Yes. But at the same time how can his life be reconciled with the blue

> collar

> and physical labor jobs he did for over 30 years? He even worked in a

> slaughter

> house for a day, and lived a very physical existence, fighting and

> brawling

> as a form of escape and self-entertainment.

 

- I think this fits well to the 12th house. In Western astrology, the 12th

house is connected with tropical Pisces, that dreamy, hazy, vulnerabe sign,

and so the 12th house is said to represent dreamy, hazy things. But sidereal

Pisces is neither dreamy nor hazy (how could it be, it's ruled by Jupiter!),

nor needs the 12th house significations be necessarily connected to Pisces.

 

According to my own observations, the 12th house has to do with "social

exclusion" in a some way or other (recently I read a horoscope for a women,

who had spent the dasha of her 12th house at home with children - here in

Finland most of the women go to work). So the 12th house would fit with

being on the outer circle of society so to speak. The natural karaka of the

12th house is Saturn, the planet of slavery and hard work.

 

This is why I feel compelled

> to reserve my opinion and find out more about the 10 PM birth time

> that Bukowski recorded himself. No one seems to be bothered by that

> and I find that rather odd considering the fact that no one on this

> newsgroup

> had prior knowledge of this information except for those who may have

> actually read this man's own words.

 

- I think if he has written the 10 PM time in one of his novels or

screenplays, it's possible that he has twisted the facts a bit. If Henry

Chinaski (his alter ego in novels) is born at 10 PM, it doesn't mean that

Charles Bukowski would have been born at 10 PM.

 

> I just wonder how many astrologers would look at the AM chart and view

> it as indicating one of the greatest writers of the 20th Century...weak

> Moon, weak Mercury, nothing in the 3rd, 5th or 9th?

 

- Mercury and the Moon exhange signs, that alone strengthens them both.

Because I don't do Systems Approach, I don't see the fact that the Moon has

low degrees as a weakening thing. It has quite good saptavargaja bala, it's

on Kendra, and Bukowski was born on Monday, Moon's day which strengthens the

Moon still. So the Moon may not be phenomenally strong, but it's not weak

either. And it's on the ascendant, in Mercury's sign.

 

Regards, Sari

[Guest guest]

Hello Sari,

 

You said:

 

> I think if he has written the 10 PM time in one of his novels or

screenplays, it's possible that he has twisted the facts a bit. If Henry

Chinaski (his alter ego in novels) is born at 10 PM, it doesn't mean that

Charles Bukowski would have been born at 10 PM.

 

H: Okay, he writes "August 16, 1920." He writes "Andernach," and then

he writes "10:00" but makes up PM instead of AM?? What would the

point be in being truthful about everything except AM/PM? Why not

say 5 PM, 4:30 AM, 7:30 PM if he's going to twist the facts? That's

why his 10 PM birth time cannot be so easily dismissed in my opinion.

And then his time shows up as 10 AM on the certificate? Andernach

was in Germany and not the US. So I think it's a perfectly legitimate

question to ask how Steinbrecher got Bukowski's German birth

certificate. I know exactly who Steinbrecher was because I knew one

of the people who marketed his data list. (Sorry, but I've forgotten

that man's name.)

 

All the jobs you mentioned might be 12th influences, but it still

leaves him with a weak ascendant lord. Mercury in the 11th disposed of

by the sickly Moon at zero degrees Virgo - a mutual exchange, yes.

But Mercury can only be as strong as the Moon, and a vice versa. They

are interconnected, but I view both planets as suffering from the

weaknesses of the other. If only the Moon and Mercury were firmly

placed in their respective signs and houses, then, yes, possibly

a great writer here and he digs out the power of his 12th house

Leo placements. So both the Moon and Mercury aren't strong, and

Jupiter as lord of the 9th house of publication is buried in the 12th.

How many would have recognized this man as a great writer unless

they'd been told? There are some yogas to consider, and as far as

I'm concerned that's the only real place the answers can be found

if the morning birth is accurate. But what a timid placement for the

Moon and Mercury for a bar room brawler! I do not go along with

the view that planets in the zero degree of their signs have no

weaknesses. The consideration of the avasthas is part of classic

vedic astrology and not exclusive to any one approach. I belong

to *no* school of thought in my approach, though in the past I might

have. That's entirely irrelevant as far as I'm concerned. How many

astrologers consider transits in the first 2 degrees of their signs

as strong? And yet they would be considered strong in the natal

chart?

 

As far as the 12th house representing "social seclusion" that could

very well be, but I don't feel that it represents his genius as a writer

unless the power of Leo steps it up a few notches more. But still,

all buried in the 12th! No planet appears strong in this chart. Even

the Sun as the dispositor of his Leo planets is at zero degrees. Stronger

house positions and lordships would have helped out a great deal,

as in the 10 PM chart. But even those are missing in the AM chart,

except for a possible Vipareeta yoga involving the Sun and Saturn

and signaling a sudden rise after illness.

 

For this to be the chart of one of the greatest novelists and poets

of the last century remains unconvincing, and it's still a mystery

how Steinbrecher happened to get his hands on Bukowski's *German*

birth certificate. And no one has yet come up with an answer for that. So

I will continue to work with both charts until I can verify the provider of

the certificate information. Just compare this 10 AM chart with

the charts of Henry Miller or Anais Nin. Their genius as writers is so

apparent in their charts, but not so with this "birth certificate" Bukowski

chart. Nevertheless, I still consider it possible that the AM chart is

correct. I'm just looking for better more powerful and convincing

reasons. The only way this chart works is through its yogas only,

and I'm sure there are more to dig out. It's interesting, though, to

hear other opinions and see how they view the strengths and

weaknesses of a chart, and I appreciate what everyone has to say.

In the meantime, none of you seem to realize that his 10 PM birth

time had been in print since 1987 and there had been no reason

to doubt it since he also wrote his corrent date and place of birth

at the same time.

 

Best wishes.

 

Sincerely, Haizen Paige

 

 

valist, "Sari Metsovuori" <gerdapp wrote:

>

> Hello Haizen,

>

> you wrote:

>

> > These are interesting points you raise about the 10 AM chart and thanks

> > for sharing them. It would be interesting to know how Mr. Steinbrecker

> > happened to get the birth certificate of this known recluse. If the source

> > is mentioned, please share.

>

> - You Americans know surely more about this, but I'm under the impression

> that it's possible to get hands onto the birth records in some states, under

> some conditions. In this way Ed Steinbrecher collected huge amounts of birth

> data, picking them from the records, if I've understood correctly. Here's a

> memorial about Steinbrecher

> http://www.solsticepoint.com/astrologersmemorial/steinbrecher.html

>

> You wrote (after I quoted some comments from classics about planets in the

> 12th house):

>

> > Yes. But at the same time how can his life be reconciled with the blue

> > collar

> > and physical labor jobs he did for over 30 years? He even worked in a

> > slaughter

> > house for a day, and lived a very physical existence, fighting and

> > brawling

> > as a form of escape and self-entertainment.

>

> - I think this fits well to the 12th house. In Western astrology, the 12th

> house is connected with tropical Pisces, that dreamy, hazy, vulnerabe sign,

> and so the 12th house is said to represent dreamy, hazy things. But sidereal

> Pisces is neither dreamy nor hazy (how could it be, it's ruled by Jupiter!),

> nor needs the 12th house significations be necessarily connected to Pisces.

>

> According to my own observations, the 12th house has to do with "social

> exclusion" in a some way or other (recently I read a horoscope for a women,

> who had spent the dasha of her 12th house at home with children - here in

> Finland most of the women go to work). So the 12th house would fit with

> being on the outer circle of society so to speak. The natural karaka of the

> 12th house is Saturn, the planet of slavery and hard work.

>

> This is why I feel compelled

> > to reserve my opinion and find out more about the 10 PM birth time

> > that Bukowski recorded himself. No one seems to be bothered by that

> > and I find that rather odd considering the fact that no one on this

> > newsgroup

> > had prior knowledge of this information except for those who may have

> > actually read this man's own words.

>

> - I think if he has written the 10 PM time in one of his novels or

> screenplays, it's possible that he has twisted the facts a bit. If Henry

> Chinaski (his alter ego in novels) is born at 10 PM, it doesn't mean that

> Charles Bukowski would have been born at 10 PM.

>

> > I just wonder how many astrologers would look at the AM chart and view

> > it as indicating one of the greatest writers of the 20th Century...weak

> > Moon, weak Mercury, nothing in the 3rd, 5th or 9th?

>

> - Mercury and the Moon exhange signs, that alone strengthens them both.

> Because I don't do Systems Approach, I don't see the fact that the Moon has

> low degrees as a weakening thing. It has quite good saptavargaja bala, it's

> on Kendra, and Bukowski was born on Monday, Moon's day which strengthens the

> Moon still. So the Moon may not be phenomenally strong, but it's not weak

> either. And it's on the ascendant, in Mercury's sign.

>

> Regards, Sari

>