Dennis Flaherty, Chakrapani Ullal/Kerala

[Guest guest]

Dear Gary,

This is possibly an old interview which is being republished.

Dennis Flaherty is an erudite scholar currently living on the Pacific Coast in Washington (state). You should try to access his interview recorded by Kate Sholly (around Dec 2004/Jan 2005) on East & West Astrology - where Dennis conceptually analyzed the commonality and differentials between Vedic and Western astrology.

The Calicut (Khozikhode) region in northern Kerala has a highly respected astrological heritage. At one of the SJC Singapore classes in the near future, I'll also share some insights on Kerala Astrology, particularly some interesting Prashna and Nakshatra analysis techniques - which I learned during visits to the region in 1990-91.

Incidentally, the seeds of Chinese Martial arts were also born in this region of Kerala. Techniques gleaned from the ancient martial art of Kalari Payat were carried by Bodhidharma and other Buddhist monks from India, via Tibet, into China. The "udyata yuddha" weapon-aggression characteristic of the first drekkan in Aries also has relevance to martial arts skills.

On your next visit to Serangoon Road - see if you can locate DVDs or VCDs of Ondanandu Kaladali (a 1978-79 Kannada film starring the late Shankar Nag) or Exploits of Tachholi Othenan. You'll notice several similarities in techniques particularly with Hung Gar (Tiger) and Choy Lay Fut styles of Kung Fu and Shorin Ryu (karate).

Regards - Prashun

 

Gary Chee <garycpk > wrote:

Source : http://www.Vedic Astrology.com/articles/ArticleInterview2006.htm

Interview of Chakrapani Ullal

by Dennis Flaherty

July 2006

Interview with Chakrapani Ullal

Dennis: I believe you were born into a family of astrologers. Is that how you began your study of astrology? What was the marga, the path, that brought you ultimately into the study and practice of Jyotisha?

Chakrapani: I was born into a family of astrologers. My father lived in a village and the village people used to come to our house. With my father being an astrologer, people came to sit around him and listen and ask questions. It was when I was very small that I got intrigued in that whole process.

Dennis: Do you have any idea how old you were when you started to sit in on your father's circle?

Chakrapani: I think I was maybe 5 or 6 years old.

Dennis: Was he in essence the village astrologer?

Chakrapani: Yes, all of the village people came to him with their questions. They asked questions about health, physical illness, treatment, marriage, or questions about auspicious days for marriage.

Dennis: So in the early years of your life your father was continuing the tradition of the village astrologer where people would come to your very home with their questions. They would sit and formally or informally ask questions. This is the way it was done in South India in that period of time?

Chakrapani: Correct, and most of the time it was prashna. (A chart is cast and read for the moment of the inquiry)

Dennis: Mostly prashna?

Chakrapani: They used to come and ask prashna because most of the village astrologers did not have a natal chart.

Dennis: Being born into this family and being exposed to astrology at a very early age in your life, did it become a natural tradition and practice for you? Was astrology seen and accepted as being a natural part of Indian village life?

Chakrapani: Yes, and also I got interested in it. It is not generally that people do things that their fathers do. When people get an education they generally give up something that their father's did. My father was associated with other things apart from being an astrologer. He was also interested in Ayurveda and Mantra.

Dennis: So your father exposed you to the Vedic sciences as well?

Chakrapani: I was exposed to them all.

Dennis: India was going through its emancipation from the British Raj during this period of time?

Chakrapani: That is correct. When I was born the British were still ruling the country and the Western influence was still very active.

Dennis: Yes, colonial India was not separated during these periods of time.

Chakrapani: Correct. It's that colonialism, when people become educated; it is then that they really turn against the ancient culture.

Dennis: Yes, colonial India was just going through its separation. It must have been such a seminal time in terms of your interest in astrology and the allied Vedic sciences, and the emphasis on western education that modern India was encouraging. Obviously you become an educated man, but you still favored the interest for astrology which was something of the past. I believe you earned a degree in law?

Chakrapani: I studied and earned a bachelor of commerce and bachelor of law degree.

Dennis: At the same time you continued your study of the ancient sciences?

Chakrapani: Correct, I was interested in ancient science and ancient wisdom. It is because of this that I was very much interested in the pursuit of spiritual activities even as a child. I was initiated into meditation at the age of seven. I was very much associated with many, many gurus throughout my life.

Dennis: Were you initiated into the spiritual tradition of your father?

Chakrapani: Yes, I was initiated into the spiritual tradition by my uncle, my mother's brother.

Dennis: Was that what ultimately led you to your association with Muktananda?

Chakrapani: It was actually through Nityananda. From Nityananda, in 1958, I met Muktananda.

Dennis: I would imagine there was conflict because you were educated in a contemporary manner which holds a profession with social esteem. However, your interest in ancient astrology would have been considered by many contemporary Indians to be the study of an ancient relic. So there must have been some inherent conflict?

Chakrapani: Inherent conflict, definitely. I was not prepared to be called an astrologer. It was difficult for me. Even though I got a good education, I did not take my education as seriously as I took astrology. Therefore I took a lot of interest in my astrology practice. I did astrology all the time, but I maintained a job for a living. After my job I would practice astrology, and in the process I did ten years of free readings. It was somewhere in the middle '60's that I started becoming a professional astrologer.

Dennis: Ah, and that is what I wanted to ask you.

Chakrapani: It was only because of the pressure from Swami Muktananda. It was his pressure and not only that, he sent people to me saying "he's an astrologer." So I was asked to do astrology readings for people that he would send. The moment people asked questions of him, he would send them to me. So I became a professional astrologer. But even then it was difficult for me to take money.

Dennis: Yes, because that is not the tradition in India. The tradition is that the village supports the astrologer through offerings.

Chakrapani: Yes, offerings, correct.

Dennis: But you had to support yourself? So you had to resolve this conflict of receiving money. I can only imagine that it must have been quite a cultural stretch for you.

Chakrapani: Intense. I continued to do my day job until 1975, and thereafter I only did half of my day job.

Dennis: In being recognized as Muktananda's astrologer, when did he suggest you come to this country?

Chakrapani: In 1979

Dennis: Just a few years after you were married?

Chakrapani: Yes

Dennis: This must have been an extraordinary uprooting for you as well?

Chakrapani: Yes, I was not ready to come to America because I had already established a good practice in India by that time. I was making good money, I was feeling very stable and secure. I was afraid if I came to America that I would lose this stability. In India, generally the clients remain with the astrologer. They don't change astrologers like here.

I was living in Bombay in those days. Even there the idea is that people would select an astrologer and stay with that astrologer. I was worried that if I didn't return in time, my astrology clients would go away and find someone else. It would be difficult to get established once again.

Dennis: Did you make the decision [to come to America] in light of Muktananda's request?

Chakrapani: That is right. I also thought that if I came, maybe I could return in two or three months.

Dennis: Yes, the best made plans….

Chakrapani: I could not return back.

Dennis: Yes, I'm well aware of that. You came here as Muktananda's astrologer and people from "Siddha Yoga" continued to see you. Your practice and reputation continued to grow! When and where did you first come here?

Chakrapani: I cam on January 20th, 1979 to California. I first came to the Oakland ashram. I was staying there, and I had prepared a brochure of mine which was called "Vedic Astrology." Until then, the word Vedic astrology had never been used.

Dennis: That word was not in use?

Chakrapani: It was only called Hindu astrology. It wasn't even called Vedic astrology in India.

Dennis: What led you to give it that name?

Chakrapani: It was really a suggestion of Swami Muktananda. Because the word Hindu is linked to religion, yet this astrology is universal. It does not belong to a religion. So why not restate it as Vedic knowledge. It is a Vedic tradition. Why not name it Vedic astrology?

Dennis: There must have been a real shift in your practice here versus how it was practiced in India. I can only imagine what a learning curve it has been for you to adapt and practice Vedic astrology here?

Chakrapani: Yes, it was a real shift.

Dennis: In light of your extensive experience, could you comment on some of the differences?

Chakrapani: Yes, in India, Vedic astrology is a very easy process compared to how it is practiced in America. People have simple questions; they are satisfied with some round-about answers. The major serious questions are about education, getting married or health concerns. Very simple! The answers to all these would be very simple. If you come to America it is more about understanding where that person comes from, psychological aspects, and also its various possibilities. In India the possibilities to each family are connected. You know them and you know the alternatives and possibilities which are available to them. It is easy to identify, whereas here, each person is a new possibility constantly.

Dennis: I have often observed, because the Guru tradition is so strong in India and there are so many gurus that people naturally bring their spiritual questions to their guru and their mundane questions to their astrologer.. Whereas here they bring their spiritual questions to the astrologer.

Chakrapani: That is true.

Dennis: This must have been only one of the many adaptations you faced in your practice here.

Chakrapani: That is important. How the change in the practice is happening. Let me tell you it this way; astrology is an onward and ongoing process of learning even today for me. Even today I feel I am a student all the time. I am learning something new all the time.

Moreover, it was a very difficult thing to begin practicing as a paid astrologer, for when you begin to accept money, it became a challenge of performance, intention and anxiety. Because in a complimentary reading you did not feel the responsibility of whether what you predicted would come true or not. The moment you started taking money; the responsibility was in what was said, what you gave them, what they were paying for, and whether the predictions came true.

The pressure sometimes made it difficult in the beginning for me. It took a while for me psychologically to make it acceptable.

Dennis: So, you were, in essence, the alpha astrologer for the practice of astrology in this culture. Like many great teachers from India, you in essence were the first transitional teacher who bridged Vedic astrology from the old way it was practiced to the new way it is practiced today.

Chakrapani: That is right! That is perfect!

Dennis: This was an extraordinary education for you. You were the first Indian astrologer to go through this. And other than the grace of the Guru, there was really no Vedic astrological support system. No astrological peers who already knew about a practice, what sustained a practice and what sustained a Vedic astrologer. This was largely a process that you learned as you earned.

When you first came here, many people within the Siddha Yoga community went to you for consultations. When did you start to branch outside of community, and how did that take place for you?

Chakrapani: It was 1982. Muktananda returned back to India in 1981. I did not return with him. I stayed back.

Dennis: Was this something that he asked of you? Or was your life already decided here?

Chakrapani: My life was already decided here. In the middle of 1982, I was living in the ashram in Santa Monica. Thereafter I moved out into an apartment, and that was the beginning of getting to know the community outside of the yoga community. So I started giving some small talks and lectures. In the beginning I did a series of six lectures of three hours each. These lectures were called the "Art of Living". That was in 1982. I don't give these lectures anymore. When I look back at these lectures they were quite good!

The Art of Living was a way to start getting people interested, so I started giving lectures.

Dennis: I attended several of your lectures in Seattle in 1988 and greatly enjoyed them. How would you characterize the way your practice has changed?

Chakrapani: In India most of the people came on their own time. So Prashna would become very easy to use and very easy to do. Everybody here has appointments so that changes the whole way that you do the reading. Here you mostly go by the chart, plus you can use Prashna when you have your own questions or you have doubt in your mind. The relationship question here deals with the whole person, not just a problem with the relationship itself. In India you are in contact with the family and you've already talked about the family affairs. Then only the context of what is important and those issues are talked about. Here when a person comes his whole life is with the individual and his own family. You deal with the whole family for him in an individual manner.

Dennis: So you went into private practice and you moved out of the ashram in 1982. How fast did your personal practice take off?

Chakrapani: It took about 2 years, and then slowly it began to be very active. I became very active by '86 and '87.

Dennis: I would like to ask, when did you start to teach Vedic astrology?

Chakrapani: I gave classes in 1983 and 1984 in Santa Monica when I was living in an apartment. Thereafter in 1986 there was a sidereal astrology institute in Hollywood. I taught there for about ten years until 2000. For ten years I taught every week. Many people came, like [astrologers] Christina Collins and Bill Levacy, who were regular visitors, and many others. I taught classes for ten years, every weekend, a 2 to 2 ½ hour class.

Dennis: In speaking to other astrologers who are just starting their practice, what is it that is most important to you in your practice of astrology that keeps you so resilient?

Chakrapani: The most important thing is that the practice of astrology is not just a profession. It is a thing that you like to do. One has to develop that. You should like to do this. It should be interesting to you. Every chart is of interest to you. That kind of feeling should come. It is not a job, not a profession, not something that gives you money. It is about something you like to do.

Dennis: Some people have also likened it to an avocation which is different than vocation, something that we enjoy doing. Some people have also liked it to spiritual Sadhana. Do you see that?

Chakrapani: Absolutely! It is absolutely like spiritual Sadhana. It is that which you like to do and enjoy doing it and you and others gain benefit for it. It is because of that kind of thinking that you notice that you never get tired. It doesn't matter how long you do it unless you're throat goes bad from talking. There is not tiredness form doing astrology. That is my experience.

Dennis: As you have elaborated, Vedic astrology in our times has greatly changed from the way it was traditionally practiced. In India it was largely taught by Shruti, word of mouth, wherever people gathered. Today we have international symposia , and we also have online education. This is how Vedic astrology is changing in our times. In light of those changes, do you feel strongly that the oral tradition is of critical importance, and that one should have a guru or a mentor in one's studies?

Chakrapani: It is as important any time now as it was in the past. For example, after I finished practicing with my father I did not stop learning. I started with many great teachers and I learned many things from them. In fact one great teacher I had stay in my home for 3 months at a time to learn astrology. That was some time in the '60's. You never finish learning.

Dennis: That Guru relationship is essential for knowledge and confidence. You would not have left India if not for the request of the guru. I understand the guru/chela relationship is of pivotal importance in developing the confidence of the student. In parting, are there any words of wisdom you would like to pass on to the growing community of practicing Vedic astrologers?

Chakrapani: The most important thing any practicing astrologer must understand is that one must really like what they are doing. Not doing it for the sake of money, even though money is important and you can take money for whatever you do. Money should not be the primary motive to doing astrology. It is because you like to do it, you are interested in doing it that continually rejuvenates the astrologer. Then the duty comes afterward. Everyday you wake up and say "I want to like astrology, I want to like astrology." So astrology likes you back!

Dennis: Chakrapani, thank you so much for taking time out of your busy schedule to share you deeply personal story and personal wisdom. On behalf of my peers and our community, I thank you for your authenticity, for being who you are, one of the great pioneering sages of contemporary Vedic astrology.

 

 

 

 

 

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