Does the Jivatma FALL from Vaikunta?

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Dear All...

Before I give the opinion of my Guru Maharaj on the subject, first

consider the ridiculous issue: "Does the Jivatma FALL from Vaikunta?"

One group of Hindus opine that the Jiva fell from Vaikunta into maya -

and became buddha-jiva because of WRONG CHOICE. Imagine: The Jiva is in

Vaikuntha thinking: "Well, I can stay here in eternal bliss, or I can

fall into dukhalaya samsar-sindhu and suffer!?" So one group says we

all choose to suffer.

Another group says the Jiva is eternal, with no beginning. We are parts

of Jiva shakti and have been infused into Maya by the unknown will of

Bhagavan (sport?). Once we work up through 8,400,000 species of life we

come to liberation, and once liberated we never come back (after

death).

These two opinions conflict 100%. And the two sides are angry at each

other, and can't get along...

My Gurudev quotes BGita: Where Lord Sri Krishna says,

"tyaktva-deham-punar-janma-neti mam iti!!!" --- On attaining ME

(Krishna) one is never born again after leaving the body.

ANY COMMENTS???

Richard Shaw-Brown, PG

Designer & Gemologist

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August 6, 2006

No being on reaching Vaikunth can ever fall back into the abyss of material creation, he/she might do so for a specific purpose, as ordained by divine will.

You might acknowledge the existence of Adi Shankara who re-lit the flame of Sanatana Dharma when KaliYuga was at its prime its sandhis nowhere near. Let me put forth his unique experience. He once had a debate with a conceited scholar called Mandana Mishra, who was a pure ritualist. As the debate commenced Mandana's wife Saraswati raised a query that only a true Gyani can pursue a debate with her learned husband, as Shankara had no experience as a householder, his experience cannot be ordained as complete. Adi admitted his lack of knowledge in this regard & left Mahishmati.

On reaching a secluded spot and leaving his body in the care of Padmapada, Shankara used a siddhi known as PariKaya Pravesha & entered the mortal remains of the King of Vanga (now Bengal). Now Shankara enjoyed Rajas. Hrishikesh who can know better about the interaction of Sattva with Rajas than you. In the lure of bhoga Shankara forgot his real self and now was fully entrenched in the worldly duties of Maharaja. Now PariKaya Pravesha has a limitation after six months the body begins to decay & seeing this Padma was alarmed. When everything else failed to bring Shankara back into his own frame. His disciples started chanting BhajaGovindam, the greatest ever hymn on liberation composed by Adi himself. Eventually the conciousness of Shankara awakened & he realised who he really was & returned to his own mortal frame.

Hrishikesh, god created god!!! Life is the process of evolution you & i evolved from being single cell entities to multicellular, from being predators to protectors. From Jiva to Manava (84,00,000 births) & from Manava to eventually Madhava, here i borrow the wisdom of my Guru.

Sir, why you want to test the wisdom of your admirers is something what beats me. Its Sunday morning & you ask such profound questions. Meet someone who truly understands the law of Karma (Bhramagyani), the game of Life (HariBhaktha), the cycle of time (Aghora).

He shall offer you a vision of liberation...

with warm regards

Richard Shaw Brown <rsbj66 > wrote:

Dear All...

Before I give the opinion of my Guru Maharaj on the subject, first

consider the ridiculous issue: "Does the Jivatma FALL from Vaikunta?"

One group of Hindus opine that the Jiva fell from Vaikunta into maya -

and became buddha-jiva because of WRONG CHOICE. Imagine: The Jiva is in

Vaikuntha thinking: "Well, I can stay here in eternal bliss, or I can

fall into dukhalaya samsar-sindhu and suffer!?" So one group says we

all choose to suffer.

Another group says the Jiva is eternal, with no beginning. We are parts

of Jiva shakti and have been infused into Maya by the unknown will of

Bhagavan (sport?). Once we work up through 8,400,000 species of life we

come to liberation, and once liberated we never come back (after

death).

These two opinions conflict 100%. And the two sides are angry at each

other, and can't get along...

My Gurudev quotes BGita: Where Lord Sri Krishna says,

"tyaktva-deham-punar-janma-neti mam iti!!!" --- On attaining ME

(Krishna) one is never born again after leaving the body.

ANY COMMENTS???

Richard Shaw-Brown, PG

Designer & Gemologist

http://www.richardshawbrown.com

http://www.agt-gems.com

http://www.astralgemstonetalismans.com

http://www.themisunderstood.com

http://www.hrisikesh.com

http://www.hrisikesh.net

http://www.p-g-a.org

http://www.satyavrat-shastri.net

http://www.generalprem.com

http://www.navaratna-museum.info

http://www.sacred-objects.info

sacred-objects/

planetary-gemology/

Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.

Here’s a new way to find what you're looking for - Answers

August 6, 2006

sacred-objects, Abhishek Dutta

<benarsibabu wrote:

>

> No being on reaching Vaikunth can ever fall back into the abyss of

material creation, he/she might do so for a specific purpose, as

ordained by divine will.

>

---Dear Sriman,

Namaste!!! Yes, such was the case with Vaikuntha gate keepers Jaya and

Vijaya who returned to the material realm for 3 births as Lord Hari's

enemies, so as to speed up their return to Vaikuntha. And that is a

very special case. In attaining a state of liberation where there can

be no return, first you must die while in a state of realization as...

---Brahma-sayujya nirakar mukti

---Realization of Paramatma in astanga yoga

---Prema Bhakti as a Vaishnava (like Hanuman)

All 3 of these goals are supported by Vedanta. And each acharya,

including Adi Shankara (incarnation of Mahadev!?) had used Brahma

Sutra and Bhagavad Gita as their authority - shastra praman.

And it is clearly stated by Krishna that a realized soul does not

return. This I would think is different than a Jiva who is a shaktya

avesh avatara sent for special purpose.

What do you think?

Best rgds,

Richard

August 6, 2006

Namo Narayana Hrishikeshji,

Avatara (Divine Decensions) upon the instructions of Lord come to inspire us & liberate us. Avatara's in connotation are like floods, who "wash" & eternally cleanse whoever comes in the way of the flow, irrespective of Creed & Form.

Lord Isa is a prime pramana of one of the loftiest avatara's. It is my opinion that, no system of liberation is top-most, or no Sampradaya can claim to have closest comunion with the divine. Sampradaha is essential. If one is sincere in his yearnings, a contact with sadguru (a guru who is krishn chaitanya), is ensured. The sadguru lights the lamp on the altar of the heart, then begins sadhana, in other words the most adventerous, exciting journey of true liberation.

Aapka Mitra

etieiw

Richard Shaw-Brown <rsbj66 > wrote

sacred-objects, Abhishek Dutta

<benarsibabu wrote:

>

> No being on reaching Vaikunth can ever fall back into the abyss of

material creation, he/she might do so for a specific purpose, as

ordained by divine will.

>

---Dear Sriman,

Namaste!!! Yes, such was the case with Vaikuntha gate keepers Jaya and

Vijaya who returned to the material realm for 3 births as Lord Hari's

enemies, so as to speed up their return to Vaikuntha. And that is a

very special case. In attaining a state of liberation where there can

be no return, first you must die while in a state of realization as...

---Brahma-sayujya nirakar mukti

---Realization of Paramatma in astanga yoga

---Prema Bhakti as a Vaishnava (like Hanuman)

All 3 of these goals are supported by Vedanta. And each acharya,

including Adi Shankara (incarnation of Mahadev!?) had used Brahma

Sutra and Bhagavad Gita as their authority - shastra praman.

And it is clearly stated by Krishna that a realized soul does not

return. This I would think is different than a Jiva who is a shaktya

avesh avatara sent for special purpose.

What do you think?

Best rgds,

Richard

Here’s a new way to find what you're looking for - Answers

August 6, 2006

Dear Abhi,

Namaste!!! Mitra saab,

I agree with everthing you have written. It is that we were discussing

the "fall" of the Jivatma into maya, and the question of "original

choice" - please give us your opinion. How have we (jivas) landed in

Maya? Since when? Did we forget God? Did the Jivatma CHOOSE to be a

buddha-jiva, starting out as an "anu" atom?

That is the issue. Rgds, R-

sacred-objects, Abhishek Dutta

<benarsibabu wrote:

>

> Namo Narayana Hrishikeshji,

>

> Avatara (Divine Decensions) upon the instructions of Lord come to

inspire us & liberate us. Avatara's in connotation are like floods,

who "wash" & eternally cleanse whoever comes in the way of the flow,

irrespective of Creed & Form.

>

> Lord Isa is a prime pramana of one of the loftiest avatara's. It

is my opinion that, no system of liberation is top-most, or no

Sampradaya can claim to have closest comunion with the divine.

Sampradaha is essential. If one is sincere in his yearnings, a contact

with sadguru (a guru who is krishn chaitanya), is ensured. The sadguru

lights the lamp on the altar of the heart, then begins sadhana, in

other words the most adventerous, exciting journey of true liberation.

>

> Aapka Mitra

> etieiw

>

> Richard Shaw-Brown <rsbj66 wrote

> sacred-objects, Abhishek Dutta

> <benarsibabu@> wrote:

> >

> > No being on reaching Vaikunth can ever fall back into the abyss of

> material creation, he/she might do so for a specific purpose, as

> ordained by divine will.

> >

> ---Dear Sriman,

>

> Namaste!!! Yes, such was the case with Vaikuntha gate keepers Jaya and

> Vijaya who returned to the material realm for 3 births as Lord Hari's

> enemies, so as to speed up their return to Vaikuntha. And that is a

> very special case. In attaining a state of liberation where there can

> be no return, first you must die while in a state of realization as...

>

> ---Brahma-sayujya nirakar mukti

> ---Realization of Paramatma in astanga yoga

> ---Prema Bhakti as a Vaishnava (like Hanuman)

>

> All 3 of these goals are supported by Vedanta. And each acharya,

> including Adi Shankara (incarnation of Mahadev!?) had used Brahma

> Sutra and Bhagavad Gita as their authority - shastra praman.

>

> And it is clearly stated by Krishna that a realized soul does not

> return. This I would think is different than a Jiva who is a shaktya

> avesh avatara sent for special purpose.

>

> What do you think?

>

> Best rgds,

> Richard

>

> Here's a new way to find what you're looking for - Answers

>

August 6, 2006

namaste everyone

hare hare krsna

and moksh to all

now this is a yummy conversation! .and should be

conducted with all humility and kindness to each other

I can guarantee we will all KNOW THE ANSWER WHEN WE

ACHIEVE MOKSH tHEN HOPEFULLY WE WILL RETURN BY DIVINE

WILL (some downtime would be good before returning)TO

HELP ALL THE other souls who in their mayic state are

still suffering.and yes im being a bit cheeky but im

serious.

anne in nyc

August 7, 2006

Dear Sir,

We all made a wrong choice, there is no doubt about it. But Maya with all her allurings looked a great prospect from HighAbove. & It seems even Lord wanted to shoo us away, for us to learn & become somewhat independent. But then He knew the fools that we are, that we shall be completely lost in the din of Maya. So he sent amongst us his RajHansa's (guys who stayed up there with him due to a blessing called Vivek) to make us aware of his existence & when the chips were really down he came down in person to tenderly cleanse us & alleviate our sufferings.

Yes, this seems okay but then, these lines written by a disciple for his guru makes you realize all this is worth-while; Who has like thou mingled the strains of joy & sorrow into the song of my life, enabling me to realize, "the joy that sits still on the lotus of pains and the joy that throws everything it has upon the dust and knows not a word"? Swami Rama of the Himalayas.

Again to borrow from a unknown mystic,

Sing a Song of Glory & You will be that glory. What are you but song & as you sing you are. You thought you were the teacher & find you are the taught. You thought you were a seeker & find you are the sought. So sing a song of Glory.

Best Regards

YPA Abhishek

,

Richard Shaw-Brown <rsbj66 > wrote:

Dear Abhi,

Namaste!!! Mitra saab,

I agree with everthing you have written. It is that we were discussing

the "fall" of the Jivatma into maya, and the question of "original

choice" - please give us your opinion. How have we (jivas) landed in

Maya? Since when? Did we forget God? Did the Jivatma CHOOSE to be a

buddha-jiva, starting out as an "anu" atom?

That is the issue. Rgds, R-

sacred-objects, Abhishek Dutta

<benarsibabu wrote:

>

> Namo Narayana Hrishikeshji,

>

> Avatara (Divine Decensions) upon the instructions of Lord come to

inspire us & liberate us. Avatara's in connotation are like floods,

who "wash" & eternally cleanse whoever comes in the way of the flow,

irrespective of Creed & Form.

>

> Lord Isa is a prime pramana of one of the loftiest avatara's. It

is my opinion that, no system of liberation is top-most, or no

Sampradaya can claim to have closest comunion with the divine.

Sampradaha is essential. If one is sincere in his yearnings, a contact

with sadguru (a guru who is krishn chaitanya), is ensured. The sadguru

lights the lamp on the altar of the heart, then begins sadhana, in

other words the most adventerous, exciting journey of true liberation.

>

> Aapka Mitra

> etieiw

>

> Richard Shaw-Brown <rsbj66 wrote

> sacred-objects, Abhishek Dutta

> <benarsibabu@> wrote:

> >

> > No being on reaching Vaikunth can ever fall back into the abyss of

> material creation, he/she might do so for a specific purpose, as

> ordained by divine will.

> >

> ---Dear Sriman,

>

> Namaste!!! Yes, such was the case with Vaikuntha gate keepers Jaya and

> Vijaya who returned to the material realm for 3 births as Lord Hari's

> enemies, so as to speed up their return to Vaikuntha. And that is a

> very special case. In attaining a state of liberation where there can

> be no return, first you must die while in a state of realization as...

>

> ---Brahma-sayujya nirakar mukti

> ---Realization of Paramatma in astanga yoga

> ---Prema Bhakti as a Vaishnava (like Hanuman)

>

> All 3 of these goals are supported by Vedanta. And each acharya,

> including Adi Shankara (incarnation of Mahadev!?) had used Brahma

> Sutra and Bhagavad Gita as their authority - shastra praman.

>

> And it is clearly stated by Krishna that a realized soul does not

> return. This I would think is different than a Jiva who is a shaktya

> avesh avatara sent for special purpose.

>

> What do you think?

>

> Best rgds,

> Richard

>

> Here's a new way to find what you're looking for - Answers

>

Here’s a new way to find what you're looking for - Answers

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