The strangest alliance in history?

[Kulapavana 0]

Source: Antiwar

Published: August 2, 2006 Author: John Basil Utley

 

The major internal conflict for the strangest alliance in history is about what will happen to Jews who don't convert to evangelical Christianity. The Armageddonites, those 30 million Americans who happily see Mideast chaos as hastening their one-way trip to paradise, are being increasingly questioned about the fate of Jews whom they urge to help fulfill the prophecies.

 

Once their death wish agenda is realized, the end-of-the-worlders believe that Buddhists, Hindus, Muslims (of course), other Christians (apparently including Catholics and Orthodox), and all the rest of humanity will be killed. But the born-again will be "raptured" to Heaven. (See "The Brutal Christ of the Armageddonites.")

 

Now some enterprising Texans have "resolved" the big question. The Jews God kills will go to a parallel heaven, "their" kind of heaven, to enjoy eternity alongside the good Christians. The Jewish heaven will presumably be what "they" would like, perhaps different from the evangelical heaven, where there will be "no booze, no bars, and no need to mow the grass on one's lawn," according to a popular Gaither Singers song. (The fact that the Jewish faith has no afterlife at all similar to the Christian one is irrelevant, nor do the faithful Texans probably even know it.) It is called the "dual covenant theory" – the belief that Jews and Christians have separate deals with God. However, Muslims, Hindus, and others have no deal.

 

A Wall Street Journal piece described the dual covenant theory in an article about a Christian Zionist meeting in Washington two weeks ago. In particular it reported on Rev. John Hagee, who founded Christians United for Israel and organized the event. Now, Jerry Falwell and other evangelicals who once opposed the thesis have joined the Hagee group board of directors. They urge no peace concessions by Israel and, now, war with Iran.

 

The 3,500 delegates held a major rally in Washington attended by, among others, Rep. Tom DeLay (R-Texas), Senators Sam Brownback (R-Kans.) and Rick Santorum (R-Penn.), Republican National Committee chairman Ken Mehlman, Israel's ambassador to the U.S., and other leading Zionists. As the Journal reports, "They see, and even sometimes seem to embrace, the notion of a global conflict between Islam and the Judeo-Christian West, just as do many zealous Muslims." (Protesters outside the meeting were led by Carol Moore, who long ago first brought media attention to the Waco and Weaver travesties.)

 

Interestingly, polls indicate that most Americans are nowhere near as pro-Israel as their elected representatives. Recent polls show strong majorities of Americans do not want the U.S. to intervene on Israel's behalf in its current military campaign.

 

There are many other strange facets to the Zionist-Evangelical alliance:

 

God needs Jews to gather in Israel for the fulfillment of His plans. To further this, the Christian Zionists collect money (from churchgoers and on TV programs) to pay for primarily Russian Jews to emigrate to Israel, because God can't end the world until most Jews have returned to the holy land. However, American Jews apparently can stay in America without hindering His agenda.

The great advantage of being "raptured" is that there is no Judgment Day. Everybody who is "born again" automatically goes to Heaven, their sins all forgiven, and no good works are necessary. But it must happen soon. If John Hagee, Jerry Falwell, or Pat Robertson should die before Armageddon happens, then God will handle their souls the ordinary way.

God loves the Jews, according to fundamentalist theology, but not if they work for peace. Pat Robertson explained that murdered Israeli leader Yitzhak Rabin was killed because he got in the way of God's plans for continued war. Robertson also blamed Ariel Sharon's recent stroke on his withdrawal from Gaza. Similarly, according to the Wall Street Journal, Hagee said that "calls for Israel to show restraint violate 'God's foreign policy statement' toward Jews." In May, 2003 Hagee and other evangelical leaders sent a letter to President Bush applauding the invasion of Iraq but complaining about the Israel-Palestine peace plan. They said it would be "morally reprehensible" for the U.S. to be "evenhanded."

Hardly any leader of the Christian Right publicly opposes the torture of prisoners of war (with the notable exception of Chuck Colson of Prison Fellowship). Perhaps predictably, many fundamentalists are passionate supporters of John Bolton, the U.S. ambassador to the United Nations, noted for symbolizing all that the rest of the world dislikes about America. Just war, rule of law, the Geneva Convention, charity to one's enemies – such concepts are all anathema to these Christians who long for the end of the world.

Millions of Arab Christians are certainly not loved by the God of the Armageddonites. In fact, Arab Christians don't seem to exist. Pat Robertson's 700 Club, for instance, refused to show a segment about Christian Arabs. Jerry Falwell's tours of Israel purposely avoided them, according to Grace Halsell, who traveled with Falwell's group and wrote a book about it. Robert Novak has written about the plight of Christians under Israeli rule and how almost no representative in Congress dares to speak up for them, except for Henry Hyde, who is retiring. The self-proclaimed "Christian" columnists and commentators on Fox News and the Washington Times op-ed page remain silent.

The White House has explained the nuances of God's plans to Armageddonites before. Last year, it sponsored a meeting with leading fundamentalist preachers to explain that Gaza was not part of the historical Judea and Samaria. Therefore, its spokesman argued, Israel's withdrawal of settlements would not interfere with God's plan to end the world.

 

It is a bit weird that we begin the 21st century with American foreign policy being made by religious fundamentalists who mirror some of their Muslim brethren in their hatred. And now they want to attack Iran, whatever the consequences for the world's oil supplies through the Straits of Hormuz. Never mind all the wisdom and experience, books and lectures of America's foreign policy establishment: State Department and CIA experts overseas, analysts at think tanks, the most brilliant thinkers in the nation might as well be whistling in the dark. George Bush has been asked if he believes that we are in the "end times." He refused to answer. He has said that God tells him what policies to pursue, presumably those now inflaming the Muslim world. Catholics and most other Christians, incidentally, do not believe the Armageddonites' scenario. Others believe God's prophecies already occurred in Biblical times.

 

And the preachers? Just in case the world does not end soon, Rev.Hagee has set aside several million dollars in trusts, money earned from his prophecies and preaching. The San Antonio Express News reported on the IRS filings of his Global Evangelism Television network. After their report, Hagee re-registered the fundraising network as a church, which does not need to show its IRS filings. <!--IBF.ATTACHMENT_31922-->

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[Guest guest]

I have heard the President of Iran also belongs to one of these type of groups that believes the world must be destroyed for the day of judgment to come. I believe Muslims hold the same view, and also accept that Jesus will be the one returning. So we are on a collision course, almost a self-fulfilling prophecy, where muslims, christians, and jews are all driving the world towards this end. "God says the world must be destroyed, so lets get to it."

 

BTW, can any person who knows the Bible confirm. I have heard they say the first destruction was by water, and then God promised never to destroy by water, and gave the sign of the rainbow. But next time it will be destruction by fire, which might suggest nuclear weaponry.

[Kulapavana 0]

 

I have heard the President of Iran also belongs to one of these type of groups that believes the world must be destroyed for the day of judgment to come.

 

I would not be one bit surprised if he does. These people are all influenced by the same ideas derived from Old Testament, all believing in the same jealous, vengeful god, partial to "his people".

 

They may get their Armageddon, but their Rapture will be with the Yamadutas...

[Bhakta Don Muntean 0]

The rapture shall be a rupture - maybe they read it wrong?

 

This is the sum and substance of what my 'Origins of the satan myth' thread is about - it is odd that both the 'orthodox' evangelicals and the 'orthodox' islamists both are expecting a judgement day and an anti-christ figure [islamists call it the al-dajjal] - and they both with their delusional undersanding think that this apocalypse 'must come' - so in that regard they are making things happen based on these delusions.

 

The fact is one day there will be this person who is the 'messiah' - of course i have discusssed this before - who and what he is - but in any event those that believe in the apocalypse theolgy are going to try to make war with him?

 

This issue is so very sad beyond the fact that it has anti-semitism as its foundation - a desire to convert every jew from their Torah Faith - into this delusional theolgy.

 

At some point these people who believe these things are going to have to see one all important fact in all this - if they use the hebrew texts and traditons as a foundation then they must do so in proper context and they then would see that Satan is NOT a literal being.

 

Since satan isn't a factual person - then this whole antichrist/al-dajjal theology has as its center - a myth.

 

I know that they do not accept these facts and they say that it is a trick of the devil that he doesn't exist - but the fact is he doesn't.

 

How does the world prevent these groups from continuing with a self-fulfiling course on these ideas?

 

Without a doubt - 'orthodox' evangelicals are on the outside of the mainsteam interpretations of scriptures - so too are the 'orthodox' Islamists - thus we can see that at times the practical reality of 'orthodox' - can result in an impractical reality of 'paradox'.

 

Some will have an issue with the fact that their understanding of 'messiah' is wrong and that the connection to Jesus is invalid. Is that why these groups hate Jews? They rightly reject Jesus as their promised messiah?

 

There is one God and there is one earth and there are many of us - we have to see the truths of the real predictions in the hebrew texts and they do not predict a yet to happen apocalypse - they tell that God is going to change the hearts of humanity and that He is sending a teacher and a leader - for the leaders.

 

The messianic age will not be a time that everyone becomes 'jewish' either as the texts say that this messianic age shall be multi-faith and multi-national - that is a fact!

 

So when this time comes people are going to be enlightened and enmity shall be disolved - we are going to all get along and there shall be justice on this earth for everyone - because at they end of the day - God IS in control.

 

But they shall sit every man under his vine and under his fig-tree; and none shall make them afraid; for the mouth of the LORD of hosts hath spoken. For let all the peoples walk each one in the name of its god, but we will walk in the name of the LORD our God for ever and ever. [Micah 4.4-5]

 

Do you see what that means? every man and all the peoples walk each one?

So obviosuly - the Jews believe that during the 'messianic age' there shall continue to be diverse nations and even - diverse faiths!

 

 

"Unity in Diverstiy"

[Bhakta Don Muntean 0]

[i thought this posting i did fits well here]

 

It should be noted that in this current conflict with Lebanon - there are going to be some evangelicals [and others] twisting scriptures and the conflict - to further-on their false teachings - of an end times showdown between Jesus [who ain't the messiah] and [a fictional] anti-christ.

 

In the book of Habakkuk there are messianic prophesies but - we often see texts taken out of context - here is an example they might forward - because they [and the Islamists calculate these things too] want to hasten a war in the middle east - as they want to see 'all nations march on Jerusalem' in a 'final' war - where the only Jews to survive are those that convert!

 

So in chapter two of Habakkuk - we read:

 

Woe to him that buildeth a town with blood, and establisheth a city by iniquity! Behold, is it not of the LORD of hosts that the peoples labour for the fire, and the nations weary themselves for vanity? For the earth shall be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea. [texts 12-14]

 

 

For the violence done to Lebanon shall cover thee, and the destruction of the beasts, which made them afraid; because of men's blood, and for the violence done to the land, to the city and to all that dwell therein. [text 17]

 

So it is easy to see how a misapplication of those texts could be lifted onto this current conflict?

 

Such propagandists often point to - 'For the earth shall be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.' - as confirmation of [their version of] messianic connections in this chapter - by saying that the gospel of Christ is being preaching in all nations - so - why should that be any fulfilment of a so-called propehesy here? To say - the knowledge of the glory of the LORD - isn't the same as - the knowledge of the LORD - these are not mutually exclusive points.

 

It should be noted that these texts were originally directed at ancient Jerusalem [and others] - for sins [that our world suffers from as well] it is clear that these were later 'fulfilled' in the exiles of 586 B.C.E. under Babylon and in 30 C.E. - under Rome.

 

These prophesies were in regard to the loss of Jerusalem and - that was seen - as predicted - first under Babylon and thus the first Exile in 586 B.C.E. and - later - at a predicted "Day of the Lord" - which happened in 30 C.E. under Rome - it's not an event - yet in the future. Of course - "The Day of the Lord's Wrath" - may happen at any time - when things are out of control and - it certainly hasn't been limited to Israel in its exercise and yes - it may be that God shall make a judgement again on the world - these are the possibilites created by us and the - language of these texts - which speak of the Day of Judgement and apocalypse are there - as a standing warning - to the whole world of the result of too much sin and rebellion.

 

So - when they bring their propaganda dogma together - they'll [eventually] say that - 'to establish Jerusalem' the Jews [who now await their human messiah who is being defamed by these propaganda-makers as being the anti-christ/al-dajjal] are doing so outside the direction of God and - 'with violence' and - 'by cutting off many peoples' [the Palestinians they'll say] - and that the 'true gospel of messiah' being preached in all the world is the 'sign' of the 'end times' and the so-called second coming of Jesus.

 

They may now think to ill interpolate these texts - saying - 'for it is written - here are the further signs of validity and immanence: "For the violence done to Lebanon shall cover thee"'.

 

Just see with today's current events - Jerusalem and now - this Lebanon conflict!

 

So in-fact the text's saying - is it not of the LORD of hosts that the peoples labour for the fire, and the nations weary themselves for vanity - 'For the violence done to Lebanon shall cover thee' - actually refers to the cutting of the forests of ancient Lebanon - for building big palaces by various ancient conquerors! It also refers to excessive hunting in these forests - by the same conquerors.

 

In-fact in these following texts [9-11] we see an interesting point - "Woe to him that gaineth evil gains for his house, that he may set his nest on high, that he may be delivered from the power of evil! Thou hast devised shame to thy house, by cutting off many peoples, and hast forfeited thy life. For the stone shall cry out of the wall, and the beam out of the timber shall answer it."

 

What is that last point? ' For the stone shall cry out of the wall, and the beam out of the timber shall answer it' - that actually refers to souls being cursed by God to be encaged 'within stones and timber' [for the noted building of any town with blood] - yup it's 'a form' taken though rebirth!

 

So what many practical things can we know from these texts?

 

We know that prophetically these texts have nothing to do with today's conflicts. We know that they aren't messianic texts.

 

It should be noted that most of the texts within the prophesies [that they quote] that note 'the day of the Lord' - well - these were a prediction of the last destruction of Israel and the Exile - these have been fullfilled in 30 C.E. under Rome and - one can say that with that last Exile - the people who were sincere - took the Torah with them and indeed - the earth was filled with the knowledge of the glory of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea. - also - that is a point speaking directly to 'the act of the Lord in doing these things' a 'judgement' - that the nations witnessing this would know thus His glory and - it would lead to the earth being filled with the knowledge of the glory of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea. - so it's a homeletical point about God's reputation and - the other nations knowing this act of 'judgement' of His - however - with that - we musn't forget that He was 'but a little displeased with them' and - the nations later [against His will] 'helped forward the afflictions of His exiled' [culminating in the nazi pogroms] - and the nations were at ease with that!

 

Of course there are practical things to be learned from those texts - no matter who and when we are....

[Bhakta Don Muntean 0]

Yes there is a history with war and religion - and the Satan myth is a big big part of the fuel.

 

When I think of the 'Satan Myth' - I like to consider this good Bhagavata Purana verse:

 

"A rope causes fear for a bewildered person who considers it a snake, but not for a person with proper intelligence who knows it to be only a rope. Similarly, You, as the Super-soul in everyone's heart, inspire fear or fearlessness according to ones intelligence, but in You there is no duality." [srimad Bhagavatam 6.9.37]

 

The concept of 'Satan as a powerful adversary of God' - did not exist in Judaism prior to the 6th century B.C.E. Babylonian exile.

 

This is [partly] evidenced through texts that are ‘pre-exile’ such as - Isaiah 45.7:

 

"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the lord do all these things"

 

There was a wholly-evil figure within the Persian religion - the archetype of today’s Satan.

 

In the Persian pantheon - the god Ahura-Mazda - was opposed [co-eternally] by a powerful evil being known as - Ahriman or Shaitan.

 

This concept of a wholly-evil entity was integrated into Hebrew teachings [correlated as a tester] - during the 6th century B.C.E. exile - later over time this interpolated allegorical idea became distorted into the fictitious adversarial Satan of the New Testament.

 

Two Old Testament passages - Isaiah 14.12 and Ezekiel 28.11-19 - have been advanced with much apologetics to provide a depiction of [so-called] Satan.

 

Even though historical evidence confirms that these texts were addressed originally to the King of Babylon and the King of Tyre [in that order] - still many ill-informed people believe the false teachings that the reference is to the fictitious Satan.

 

Let’s take a look at these two texts [of course there are many more]:

 

Isaiah 14.12: "How you have fallen from heaven, O morning star, son of the dawn! You have been cast down to the earth, you who once laid low the nations!" - 'context' is found in texts 11 and 20 - "All your pomp has been brought down to the grave, along with the noise of your harps; maggots are spread out beneath you and worms cover you." - then see text 20 - "you will not join them in burial, for you have destroyed your land and killed your people" - then again look at text 16 - "Those who see you stare at you, they ponder your fate: "Is this the MAN who shook the earth and made kingdoms tremble,.."

 

As we can see [in proper context] Isaiah 14.12 is talking about a long expired MAN - not a fictitious Satan.

 

In referencing Ezekiel 28.11-19 [which is an allegory] - it only appears that there is a discussion about - ‘Satan in the garden of Eden’ - text 13: "You were in Eden, the garden of God;..."

 

In the footnote to this text the New International Version Translation states:

 

"...The meaning of the Hebrew for this phrase is uncertain."

 

We do know the text is about the king of Tyre - it is an allegorical text - nothing in the Hebrew understanding of this verse actually accepts it as an evidence of the existence Satan/Lucifer.

 

Clearly these two texts reflect something 'very different' than a fictitious Satan - that these are the two oft most quoted ‘biblical texts’ to prove [scripturally] that there is a so-called Satan - makes no-sense without elaborate apologetics.

 

Why do so many groups cling to this illusion - preaching that Satan is real - with all the ill-delusional myths which go with it?

 

This is the starting point - prevent others from being sucked into this delusion.

 

Of course the Book of Daniel texts they quote to describe the fictional anti-christ are really about a long ago time - they are about the 'time of the end' under the Syrian persections of Antiochus Epiphanes who desecrated the temple with a zeus idol and pig sacrifices [167 B.C.E.]

Please see this link for the full explications:

http://www.mystae.com/restricted/reflections/messiah/maccabees.html

The book of Daniel simply has no such anti-christ predictions 'yet to come' in the future.