Samputa, Devotion, Pronunciation and Veda

[Guest guest]

Dear Ajit,

 

> Explaining my limited understanding furthur, I believe there are two

> possibilities. (1) where the samputa is recited as part of the mantra

> proper, and thus, changes the mantra's chandas. For example, panchakshari

> vs. shadakshari (2) where a pause is given between the recitation of the

> samputa and the mantra-proper, and thus, the chandas of the mantra remains

> unchanged. For example, the recitation of the savitur mantra in south india,

> where the chandas for each set of samputas is separately known, and where a

> definite pause is given between the samputas and the mantra-proper.

 

I know people who actually use more intrusive samputas. For example, you can have a prefix, then the two padas of a Gayatri/Anushtup verse, then another "midfix", then the remaining 1 or 2 padas of the mantra and finally the suffix. After all, if you go back to my analogy from yesterday, why can't a bowl used for placing rice have a big spike/handle in the middle of it? If so, will the tall spike in the middle of the bowl become part of rice?

 

Using a pause to demarcate is good. But pause does not necessarily mean a samputa-mantra boundary. There can be pauses within the mantra too. For example, in a Gayatri, there can be a pause before the third pada.

 

Now, if we have a chanting that contains 3 or 4 or 5 pieces separated by pauses, how do we know which pieces belong to the samputa (container) and which pieces belong to the mantra?

 

To answer this, let me go back to yesterday's analogy. If you put rice in a bowl and offer it to a guest, how will he know what is rice and what is bowl? How do we make sure that the guest eats only rice and does not end up eating the bowl instead? :-) Do we put labels on rice and bowl so that the guest knows?

 

Of course, if the guest is intelligent enough, he will know without labels.

 

Isn't the devata accepting your mantra as intelligent?

 

Another case: I may place an ice cream in an edible ice cream cone and offer it to a guest. He may choose to treat the cone as part of ice cream and eat it or treat it as a mere container and leave it without eating. If I chant "Om Namassivaya", Shiva may treat Om as the samputa and Namassivaya as the mantra or the entire thing as the six-lettered mantra. Why don't I just leave it to Shiva?

 

As long as I am offering a good food in a clean container with a pure heart, my guest will be happy and enjoy the food. If there are any choices to make, I'd rather leave the freedom to the guest. Of course, some guests may sense my intention and follow it in making the choices.

 

Same thing with mantras. The samputa, as the literal meaning of the word suggests, is the container/bowl. Mantra is the food offered. And deity is the guest receiving the offering.

 

* * *

 

> other is that narasima has hummed the mantra and thus violated the

> word given to his guru. here too i appreciate narasimha for his

> REPEATED CLARIFICATION IN ALL MAILS that his intent is to spread the

 

Actually, my guru explicitly permitted me to record the humming and give it. Just for the record, it was NOT a humming of the mantra. It was a humming of the tune that captures the changing accents/intonation to be used in chanting the actual mantra.

 

* * *

 

Regarding the roles of pronunciation and devotion, our views are not entirely different, but there are subtle differences when it comes to Vedic mantras.

 

> too much

> emphasis in saying that only one intonation is correct and others

> are wrong will defeat the very purpose of mantras. after all

> shraddha is primary and intonation is secondary.

 

Shraddha (devotion) is certainly important. But, if that is all, we don't need any specific mantras such as Gayatri! We can just repeat "I bow to the all-pervading supreme soul of this universe" or something like that.

 

In fact, if one has utmost devotion, that may work too! Why not?

 

However, Vedas contain some specific mantras that were tested by maharshis for their fast and efficient working. If one has perfect devotion and full control over mind, there is no need for a mantra actually. Mantras are for those who do not have full control over mind and want it. Mantras such as Gayatri slowly bring control over mind and slowly increase devotion.

 

If you pronounce a Vedic mantra incorrectly, you are not taking advantage of the wisdom of maharshis. If you pronounce it arbitrarily, but with great devotion, you will still get results. I don't dispute that at all. But, to me, the fact that maharshis took great care in passing down the mantras, along with very specific and rigorous teachings on how to pronunce them, means that there is value in it. Basically, how they impact various chakras and nadis in the subtle body is well-understood and well-tested.

 

If one definitely cannot get the correct intonation, it will be great if they atleast chant it somehow or the other. Doing it somehow is better than not doing it at all. But, I firmly believe that chanting Gayatri with the correct intonation gives tremendous results and that too quite fast. Correct pronunciation does not *compete* with devotion or *replace* it. Instead, it supplements it. When devotion is also there, correct pronunciation gives results fast, especially with mantras from Veda.

 

When one cannot get the intonation right, the best thing according to shastras is to read the Vedic mantras with a uniform pitch in ekasruti (rather than singing with a random changes in pitch).

 

> all mantra and

> all suktams are chanted in varying accents (intonations) in the

> north, in the east, in the south and in the west. no one shall

> criticise the others pronounciation as wrong. if a south indian

> listens to the suktams chanted in kashi, he would not understand but

> he must not criticise them.

 

The intonation rules of Rigveda are pretty standard across India. In fact, there are very specific teachings on intonation that have been kept intact for millennia. If you find two scholars who studied at Veda Pathasalas in different parts of India, you will hear only minor differences in intonation. Of course, when non-Vedic stotras and prayers are read, there are bigger differences.

 

> if lord ram is

> pronounced as ram in the north, as raman, ramam, rama and ramu in

> the four southern states in four different ways, there is no harm.

> even lord subrahmanya is prnounced in four different ways like

> subrahmanya, subrahmanyam, subramaniam, subramanian. are the four

> southern states finding fault with each other in these distortions.

> NO.

 

However, there are no such confusions as far as Veda mantras go. Different corruptions in Sanskrit have come up in different parts of India in the last few millennia and no part of India is perfect. But, the Vedas and the intonation rules have been preserved quite well.

 

Bottomline: I am not fully disagreeing with you regarding devotion. Devotion is certainly important and also sufficient for getting *any* result. But it may take time. On the other hand, japa of mantras from Veda with near-correct pronunciation can give results *faster*.

 

Sarvam SreeKrishnaarpanamastu,

Narasimha

-------------------------------

Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro.home.comcast.net

Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAstrologer.org

Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagannath.org

-------------------------------

[Guest guest]

Aum Namo Bhagavathe Vaasudevaya

 

Respected Members,

 

A few thoughts - While reciting these shlokas, if one also

contemplates the reasons for such intonations, it dispels all

questions and it gives pure joy.

 

a) Hinduism is Sanatana Dharma. These slokas have been recited

since time immemorial. One way to remember them easily is to make

the slokas rhythmic and all our literature is pure poetry. That

also made them to be passed down to generations easily. since these

were passed down from from one generation to the other, it is good

to accept somebody as a guru and get the shiksha from them.

 

b) Our Vedas annd Upanishads are also called as Shruti which

means "heard". "Shruthi" is also used in music to denote pitch.

 

c) It also aids meditation and concentration. A beginner sadhaka

has to pay a lot of attention to learn the intonations and thereby

concentrate. This clears the mind and fixes it on the shloka and

thereby the SUPREME. Even the expert sadhaka has to revel in it to

get that joy.

 

d) The musical pause and dirga intonation control the breathing

cycles. Hence it also acts as pranayama.

 

e) These are all revelations from the Anahata chakra of the great

maharishis ie. these are "unstruck notes" ie. revealed and heard by

their inner divinity.

 

f) All our upanishads, vedas, Bhagavad Gita extol AUM. Gayatri

Mantra is the expanded form of the AUM.

 

g) Mandukya Upanishad is the shortest of all upnaishads. It

describes beautifuly AUM and it's worthwhile for everyone of us to

have it as a "must read" scripture.

 

Sarvam Sri Krishnaarpanamasthu

Best Regards

lalitha v

 

 

 

vedic astrology, "Narasimha P.V.R. Rao"

<pvr wrote:

>

> Dear Ajit,

>

> > Explaining my limited understanding furthur, I believe there are

two

> > possibilities. (1) where the samputa is recited as part of the

mantra

> > proper, and thus, changes the mantra's chandas. For example,

panchakshari

> > vs. shadakshari (2) where a pause is given between the

recitation of the

> > samputa and the mantra-proper, and thus, the chandas of the

mantra remains

> > unchanged. For example, the recitation of the savitur mantra in

south india,

> > where the chandas for each set of samputas is separately known,

and where a

> > definite pause is given between the samputas and the mantra-

proper.

>

> I know people who actually use more intrusive samputas. For

example, you can have a prefix, then the two padas of a

Gayatri/Anushtup verse, then another "midfix", then the remaining 1

or 2 padas of the mantra and finally the suffix. After all, if you

go back to my analogy from yesterday, why can't a bowl used for

placing rice have a big spike/handle in the middle of it? If so,

will the tall spike in the middle of the bowl become part of rice?

>

> Using a pause to demarcate is good. But pause does not necessarily

mean a samputa-mantra boundary. There can be pauses within the

mantra too. For example, in a Gayatri, there can be a pause before

the third pada.

>

> Now, if we have a chanting that contains 3 or 4 or 5 pieces

separated by pauses, how do we know which pieces belong to the

samputa (container) and which pieces belong to the mantra?

>

> To answer this, let me go back to yesterday's analogy. If you put

rice in a bowl and offer it to a guest, how will he know what is

rice and what is bowl? How do we make sure that the guest eats only

rice and does not end up eating the bowl instead? :-) Do we put

labels on rice and bowl so that the guest knows?

>

> Of course, if the guest is intelligent enough, he will know

without labels.

>

> Isn't the devata accepting your mantra as intelligent?

>

> Another case: I may place an ice cream in an edible ice cream cone

and offer it to a guest. He may choose to treat the cone as part of

ice cream and eat it or treat it as a mere container and leave it

without eating. If I chant "Om Namassivaya", Shiva may treat Om as

the samputa and Namassivaya as the mantra or the entire thing as the

six-lettered mantra. Why don't I just leave it to Shiva?

>

> As long as I am offering a good food in a clean container with a

pure heart, my guest will be happy and enjoy the food. If there are

any choices to make, I'd rather leave the freedom to the guest. Of

course, some guests may sense my intention and follow it in making

the choices.

>

> Same thing with mantras. The samputa, as the literal meaning of

the word suggests, is the container/bowl. Mantra is the food

offered. And deity is the guest receiving the offering.

>

> * * *

>

> > other is that narasima has hummed the mantra and thus violated

the

> > word given to his guru. here too i appreciate narasimha for his

> > REPEATED CLARIFICATION IN ALL MAILS that his intent is to spread

the

>

> Actually, my guru explicitly permitted me to record the humming

and give it. Just for the record, it was NOT a humming of the

mantra. It was a humming of the tune that captures the changing

accents/intonation to be used in chanting the actual mantra.

>

> * * *

>

> Regarding the roles of pronunciation and devotion, our views are

not entirely different, but there are subtle differences when it

comes to Vedic mantras.

>

> > too much

> > emphasis in saying that only one intonation is correct and

others

> > are wrong will defeat the very purpose of mantras. after all

> > shraddha is primary and intonation is secondary.

>

> Shraddha (devotion) is certainly important. But, if that is all,

we don't need any specific mantras such as Gayatri! We can just

repeat "I bow to the all-pervading supreme soul of this universe" or

something like that.

>

> In fact, if one has utmost devotion, that may work too! Why not?

>

> However, Vedas contain some specific mantras that were tested by

maharshis for their fast and efficient working. If one has perfect

devotion and full control over mind, there is no need for a mantra

actually. Mantras are for those who do not have full control over

mind and want it. Mantras such as Gayatri slowly bring control over

mind and slowly increase devotion.

>

> If you pronounce a Vedic mantra incorrectly, you are not taking

advantage of the wisdom of maharshis. If you pronounce it

arbitrarily, but with great devotion, you will still get results. I

don't dispute that at all. But, to me, the fact that maharshis took

great care in passing down the mantras, along with very specific and

rigorous teachings on how to pronunce them, means that there is

value in it. Basically, how they impact various chakras and nadis in

the subtle body is well-understood and well-tested.

>

> If one definitely cannot get the correct intonation, it will be

great if they atleast chant it somehow or the other. Doing it

somehow is better than not doing it at all. But, I firmly believe

that chanting Gayatri with the correct intonation gives tremendous

results and that too quite fast. Correct pronunciation does not

*compete* with devotion or *replace* it. Instead, it supplements it.

When devotion is also there, correct pronunciation gives results

fast, especially with mantras from Veda.

>

> When one cannot get the intonation right, the best thing according

to shastras is to read the Vedic mantras with a uniform pitch in

ekasruti (rather than singing with a random changes in pitch).

>

> > all mantra and

> > all suktams are chanted in varying accents (intonations) in the

> > north, in the east, in the south and in the west. no one shall

> > criticise the others pronounciation as wrong. if a south indian

> > listens to the suktams chanted in kashi, he would not understand

but

> > he must not criticise them.

>

> The intonation rules of Rigveda are pretty standard across India.

In fact, there are very specific teachings on intonation that have

been kept intact for millennia. If you find two scholars who studied

at Veda Pathasalas in different parts of India, you will hear only

minor differences in intonation. Of course, when non-Vedic stotras

and prayers are read, there are bigger differences.

>

> > if lord ram is

> > pronounced as ram in the north, as raman, ramam, rama and ramu

in

> > the four southern states in four different ways, there is no

harm.

> > even lord subrahmanya is prnounced in four different ways like

> > subrahmanya, subrahmanyam, subramaniam, subramanian. are the

four

> > southern states finding fault with each other in these

distortions.

> > NO.

>

> However, there are no such confusions as far as Veda mantras go.

Different corruptions in Sanskrit have come up in different parts of

India in the last few millennia and no part of India is perfect.

But, the Vedas and the intonation rules have been preserved quite

well.

>

> Bottomline: I am not fully disagreeing with you regarding

devotion. Devotion is certainly important and also sufficient for

getting *any* result. But it may take time. On the other hand, japa

of mantras from Veda with near-correct pronunciation can give

results *faster*.

>

> Sarvam SreeKrishnaarpanamastu,

> Narasimha

> -------------------------------

> Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro.home.comcast.net

> Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAstrologer.org

> Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagannath.org

> -------------------------------

>

>

>