RE: A controversial article on vedic astrology...2 cents

[Guest guest]

Friends,

If your Bhakti, Sadhana and Intution are weak , even if you master astrology, you will never be able to predict accurately.

If some one is failing, the fault lies with some one's karma.

Such people will find excuses to justify their failures.

Tatvam-Asi

Nachanhari ka aangan tedha

 

Bharat Hindu Astrology <hinduastrology > wrote:

Namaskaar All

 

Sri Sreenadh and I had a major discussion on the same with Sri Kaul and one

more person who too went all out on similar lines.

 

Sri Finn Windhall had written a wrong reply to him to which he did not

respond. All this is available in the

archives of Vedic Astrology and Jyotish Groups.

 

The problem is the same thing is repeated again after a few weeks or months

and we are all expected to respond.

 

Thanks and Regards

Bharat

 

On 7/7/06, Prafulla Gang <jyotish (AT) inbox (DOT) com> wrote:

>

> Dear members

>

> Pradeep shared the article with me in his mail. I request members to read

> the article and post their views. It is worth debating the merits of the

> article. Since, I do not know much about astronomical basis of ayanamsa, the

> learned members may have sound reasonings against the arguments of the

> article.

>

> regards / Prafulla Gang

>

> Make a decision! If that doesn't work, make another, and another, and

> another. Keep doing this until you break through.

>

> >

> > psd1955 <psd1955%40gmail.com>

> > Fri, 7 Jul 2006 10:02:28 +0530

> > pradeep0890 <pradeep0890%40>

> > A controversial article on vedic astrology

> >

> >

> > Dear Sir,

> >

> > An interesting and maybe even a controversial article on vedic astrology

> > by an eminent Jyotishi of India.

> >

> > In case you have already read this article kindly pardon me.

> >

> > http://www.aryasamaj.org/eng_art/do_celebrate_in_time.htm

> >

> > Regards,

> > Pradeep

>

>

[Guest guest]

dear prafulla ji

 

specific answer to your specific query on which ayanamsha was used

by parashara etc., was given by sreenadhji in one of his (or

chandrahari's) articles or files on surya siddhanta in his group

ancient indian astrology. hope he will be able to give you a

satisfying answer if he is still active in this group or refer the

files section in his group.

 

with best wishes

pandit arjun

 

, Prafulla Gang <jyotish

wrote:

>

> Dear Shri Tatvam Asi ji

>

> Without Prejudice

>

> I am just trying to think from different perspective.

>

> Yes, intuition / sadhana / bhakti etc have greater role in

prediction; and many people, I also met - who could tell without any

astrology (chart in particular). We are not discussing them for the

purpose of predictive astrology. and If astological subject has no

relevance, then why this forum and discussions on technical issues?

>

> I am not saying that the theory of Mr kaul makes sense or not; and

as Shri Pandit Arjun ji stated in his previous mails that - many of

the statements of Shri Kaul is based upon facts. and if that is

fact, then only one of it can be true.

>

> Yes, both can be different theories / systems; but there must have

been rationale behind any of two (or for both) to be correct. I do

not intend to dispute the possibility that the jyotish, what we all

learnt is wrong. But possible, we are pursuing it with wrong

ayanamsa (I do not have knowledge of astronomy..and am not competent

to comment). and If so, then wrong chart is as bad (good) as no

chart!!!!! and putting down the role of chart and all predictions

through intuition means that - whatever astro factors, we are

discussing is meaningless and the research thereupon too. All

theories are bogus???? No, I personally feel, all can not be

bogus..so there must be rationale behind the "vedic astrology read

with its ayanamsa".

>

> Perhaps, people familiar with tropical astrology can pin point the

predictive accuracy vis a vis ayanamsa. There are so many scholars

on the astrology books, vedic literature..and this is indeed a

probing question - which ayanamsa sage Parashar or other great

rishis followed ?

>

> I am not comfortable with unnecessary criticism of vedic

astrologers, their hypothesis etc ; so my mail must not be read as

my acceptance of other statements. But certainly, it is indeed a big

question that - do we pursue correct chart? and if yes - then we

must be having same rationale of ayanamsa as sage Parashar had..and

if so then what is it? Perhaps, we astrologer community do not have

valid answers to them and we are siding with what we follow - with

or without rationale?

>

> regards / Prafulla Gang

>

> Make a decision! If that doesn't work, make another, and another,

and another. Keep doing this until you break through.

>

>

> >

> > om_tatsat_om

> > Fri, 7 Jul 2006 10:18:49 -0700 (PDT)

> >

> > Re: RE: A controversial article on vedic

astrology...2

> > cents

> >

> > Friends,

> >

> > If your Bhakti, Sadhana and Intution are weak , even if you

master

> > astrology, you will never be able to predict accurately.

> > If some one is failing, the fault lies with some one's karma.

> > Such people will find excuses to justify their failures.

> > Tatvam-Asi

> >

> > Nachanhari ka aangan tedha

> >

> >

> >

> > Bharat Hindu Astrology <hinduastrology wrote:

> > Namaskaar All

> >

> > Sri Sreenadh and I had a major discussion on the same with Sri

Kaul and

> > one

> > more person who too went all out on similar lines.

> >

> > Sri Finn Windhall had written a wrong reply to him to which he

did not

> > respond. All this is available in the

> > archives of Vedic Astrology and Jyotish Groups.

> >

> > The problem is the same thing is repeated again after a few

weeks or

> > months

> > and we are all expected to respond.

> >

> > Thanks and Regards

> > Bharat

> >

> > On 7/7/06, Prafulla Gang <jyotish wrote:

> >>

> >> Dear members

> >>

> >> Pradeep shared the article with me in his mail. I request

members to

> >> read

> >> the article and post their views. It is worth debating the

merits of the

> >> article. Since, I do not know much about astronomical basis of

ayanamsa,

> >> the

> >> learned members may have sound reasonings against the arguments

of the

> >> article.

> >>

> >> regards / Prafulla Gang

> >>

> >> Make a decision! If that doesn't work, make another, and

another, and

> >> another. Keep doing this until you break through.

> >>

> >>>

> >>> psd1955 <psd1955%40gmail.com>

> >>> Fri, 7 Jul 2006 10:02:28 +0530

> >>> pradeep0890 <pradeep0890%40>

> >>> A controversial article on vedic astrology

> >>>

> >>>

> >>> Dear Sir,

> >>>

> >>> An interesting and maybe even a controversial article on vedic

> >>> astrology

> >>> by an eminent Jyotishi of India.

> >>>

> >>> In case you have already read this article kindly pardon me.

> >>>

> >>> http://www.aryasamaj.org/eng_art/do_celebrate_in_time.htm

> >>>

> >>> Regards,

> >>> Pradeep

> >>

> >>

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Dadabhai,

 

I have no past-lifetime memory and cannot truthfully claim

any 'flashbacks' from the past lifetimes, other than the purple

glabellar peephole. Despite its visceral and visual presence over

years -- I simply do not dwell on it too much.

 

I have no sadhnaa or rituals or intuitions or bhakti or undying

allegience to any sect or even individual!

 

I have no special reverence for doyens and giants -- past and

present, imagined or real!!

 

Should I not even be here? Why do I not go away, as many might have

wished for?? Is it arrogance, survival or just witnessing? Am I

missing the point, entirely?

 

RR

 

 

 

, Tatvamasi <om_tatsat_om

wrote:

>

> Friends,

>

> If your Bhakti, Sadhana and Intution are weak , even if you

master astrology, you will never be able to predict accurately.

> If some one is failing, the fault lies with some one's karma.

> Such people will find excuses to justify their failures.

> Tatvam-Asi

>

> Nachanhari ka aangan tedha

>

>

>

> Bharat Hindu Astrology <hinduastrology wrote:

> Namaskaar All

>

> Sri Sreenadh and I had a major discussion on the same with Sri Kaul

and one

> more person who too went all out on similar lines.

>

> Sri Finn Windhall had written a wrong reply to him to which he did

not

> respond. All this is available in the

> archives of Vedic Astrology and Jyotish Groups.

>

> The problem is the same thing is repeated again after a few weeks

or months

> and we are all expected to respond.

>

> Thanks and Regards

> Bharat

>

> On 7/7/06, Prafulla Gang <jyotish wrote:

> >

> > Dear members

> >

> > Pradeep shared the article with me in his mail. I request members

to read

> > the article and post their views. It is worth debating the merits

of the

> > article. Since, I do not know much about astronomical basis of

ayanamsa, the

> > learned members may have sound reasonings against the arguments

of the

> > article.

> >

> > regards / Prafulla Gang

> >

> > Make a decision! If that doesn't work, make another, and another,

and

> > another. Keep doing this until you break through.

> >

> > >

> > > psd1955 <psd1955%40gmail.com>

> > > Fri, 7 Jul 2006 10:02:28 +0530

> > > pradeep0890 <pradeep0890%40>

> > > A controversial article on vedic astrology

> > >

> > >

> > > Dear Sir,

> > >

> > > An interesting and maybe even a controversial article on vedic

astrology

> > > by an eminent Jyotishi of India.

> > >

> > > In case you have already read this article kindly pardon me.

> > >

> > > http://www.aryasamaj.org/eng_art/do_celebrate_in_time.htm

> > >

> > > Regards,

> > > Pradeep

> >

> >

>

>

[Guest guest]

Dear Arjunbhai,

 

Do you use that ayanamasha of Chandrahari that you quoted?

 

Sorry to put you on the spot but symbol <SHK> motivates me to do so!

 

I am currently using a value that is between Raman and Lahiri, 33

minutes away from Raman.

 

<CKR>

 

RR

 

, "panditarjun2004"

<panditarjun2004 wrote:

>

> dear prafulla ji

>

> specific answer to your specific query on which ayanamsha was used

> by parashara etc., was given by sreenadhji in one of his (or

> chandrahari's) articles or files on surya siddhanta in his group

> ancient indian astrology. hope he will be able to give you a

> satisfying answer if he is still active in this group or refer the

> files section in his group.

>

> with best wishes

> pandit arjun

>

> , Prafulla Gang <jyotish@>

> wrote:

> >

> > Dear Shri Tatvam Asi ji

> >

> > Without Prejudice

> >

> > I am just trying to think from different perspective.

> >

> > Yes, intuition / sadhana / bhakti etc have greater role in

> prediction; and many people, I also met - who could tell without

any

> astrology (chart in particular). We are not discussing them for the

> purpose of predictive astrology. and If astological subject has no

> relevance, then why this forum and discussions on technical issues?

> >

> > I am not saying that the theory of Mr kaul makes sense or not;

and

> as Shri Pandit Arjun ji stated in his previous mails that - many of

> the statements of Shri Kaul is based upon facts. and if that is

> fact, then only one of it can be true.

> >

> > Yes, both can be different theories / systems; but there must

have

> been rationale behind any of two (or for both) to be correct. I do

> not intend to dispute the possibility that the jyotish, what we all

> learnt is wrong. But possible, we are pursuing it with wrong

> ayanamsa (I do not have knowledge of astronomy..and am not

competent

> to comment). and If so, then wrong chart is as bad (good) as no

> chart!!!!! and putting down the role of chart and all predictions

> through intuition means that - whatever astro factors, we are

> discussing is meaningless and the research thereupon too. All

> theories are bogus???? No, I personally feel, all can not be

> bogus..so there must be rationale behind the "vedic astrology read

> with its ayanamsa".

> >

> > Perhaps, people familiar with tropical astrology can pin point

the

> predictive accuracy vis a vis ayanamsa. There are so many scholars

> on the astrology books, vedic literature..and this is indeed a

> probing question - which ayanamsa sage Parashar or other great

> rishis followed ?

> >

> > I am not comfortable with unnecessary criticism of vedic

> astrologers, their hypothesis etc ; so my mail must not be read as

> my acceptance of other statements. But certainly, it is indeed a

big

> question that - do we pursue correct chart? and if yes - then we

> must be having same rationale of ayanamsa as sage Parashar had..and

> if so then what is it? Perhaps, we astrologer community do not

have

> valid answers to them and we are siding with what we follow - with

> or without rationale?

> >

> > regards / Prafulla Gang

> >

> > Make a decision! If that doesn't work, make another, and another,

> and another. Keep doing this until you break through.

> >

> >

> > >

> > > om_tatsat_om@

> > > Fri, 7 Jul 2006 10:18:49 -0700 (PDT)

> > >

> > > Re: RE: A controversial article on vedic

> astrology...2

> > > cents

> > >

> > > Friends,

> > >

> > > If your Bhakti, Sadhana and Intution are weak , even if you

> master

> > > astrology, you will never be able to predict accurately.

> > > If some one is failing, the fault lies with some one's karma.

> > > Such people will find excuses to justify their failures.

> > > Tatvam-Asi

> > >

> > > Nachanhari ka aangan tedha

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > Bharat Hindu Astrology <hinduastrology@> wrote:

> > > Namaskaar All

> > >

> > > Sri Sreenadh and I had a major discussion on the same with Sri

> Kaul and

> > > one

> > > more person who too went all out on similar lines.

> > >

> > > Sri Finn Windhall had written a wrong reply to him to which he

> did not

> > > respond. All this is available in the

> > > archives of Vedic Astrology and Jyotish Groups.

> > >

> > > The problem is the same thing is repeated again after a few

> weeks or

> > > months

> > > and we are all expected to respond.

> > >

> > > Thanks and Regards

> > > Bharat

> > >

> > > On 7/7/06, Prafulla Gang <jyotish@> wrote:

> > >>

> > >> Dear members

> > >>

> > >> Pradeep shared the article with me in his mail. I request

> members to

> > >> read

> > >> the article and post their views. It is worth debating the

> merits of the

> > >> article. Since, I do not know much about astronomical basis of

> ayanamsa,

> > >> the

> > >> learned members may have sound reasonings against the

arguments

> of the

> > >> article.

> > >>

> > >> regards / Prafulla Gang

> > >>

> > >> Make a decision! If that doesn't work, make another, and

> another, and

> > >> another. Keep doing this until you break through.

> > >>

> > >>>

> > >>> psd1955@ <psd1955%40gmail.com>

> > >>> Fri, 7 Jul 2006 10:02:28 +0530

> > >>> pradeep0890@ <pradeep0890%40>

> > >>> A controversial article on vedic astrology

> > >>>

> > >>>

> > >>> Dear Sir,

> > >>>

> > >>> An interesting and maybe even a controversial article on vedic

> > >>> astrology

> > >>> by an eminent Jyotishi of India.

> > >>>

> > >>> In case you have already read this article kindly pardon me.

> > >>>

> > >>> http://www.aryasamaj.org/eng_art/do_celebrate_in_time.htm

> > >>>

> > >>> Regards,

> > >>> Pradeep

> > >>

> > >>

> > >

> > >

[Guest guest]

Prafulla,

 

I am only a fascinated observer of western astrology and nothing

more. So take my post with a pinch of salt. I am more fascinated by

the openness and documentation and organization of the technical

material, databases etc that have almost mostly been created by

western astrologers. As far as the system is concerned, when it

started the two zodiacs were close and so rulerships etc worked

better. over the year the practitioners have moved away from the

rulerships as Sari pointed out. Another interesting thing is the

heavy use of inter-planetary and planet to cusp arcs also known as

aspects. Obviously these would be not sensitive to or influenced by

zodiacs, since it is using the relative distance between the bodies

and points. Also the Ebertin system which deals with midpoints again

is looking at relative placements and is not influenced by the

zodiac. If I were trying to looking into the 'marriage' of the two

systems, I would bring in mid-point analysis and western aspects into

the vedic charts, because they are system or zodiac-independent!

 

The two zodiacs, sidereal (visible, fixed) and tropical (experiential

as in seasons, heat and cold, earth-based, movable) tell me that

there is perhaps some different symbolic representations that are

inherent in the two zodiacs. I do not believe that the belief that

tropical gives better representation of human psyche and sidereal

gives better event timing. This is simply not true. Both systems have

been demonstrated to perform both functions. The human psyche thing

comes because for a long significant time, western astrologers tended

to come from backgrounds of psychology and education and therefore

brought their backgrounds to evolve and develop that aspect of

astrology. With rich contributions which are worth reading. Rudhyar,

Noel Tyl, Alan Oken, Munkasey, and many more have written well and

are worth reading...

 

Just a thought,

 

RR

 

 

, Prafulla Gang <jyotish

wrote:

>

> Dear Sari

>

> Many thanks for detailed note. Can not we cast the chart per

tropical zodiac (without ayanamsa correction) and read per vedic

astrology practices.

>

> regards / Prafulla Gang

>

> Make a decision! If that doesn't work, make another, and another,

and another. Keep doing this until you break through.

>

>

> >

> > gerdapp

> > Sat, 8 Jul 2006 11:43:49 +0300

> >

> > Re: RE: A controversial article on vedic

astrology...2

> > cents

> >

> > Prafulla Gang wrote:

> >

> >> Perhaps, people familiar with tropical astrology can pin point

the

> >> predictive accuracy vis a vis ayanamsa.

> >

> > Sari:

> >

> > Dear Prafulla and other respected members,

> >

> > I read the article too and I got the impression that the main

reason for

> > the

> > writer to consider tropical zodiac more accurate were the good

results he

> > had got with Western secondary progressions. But one need not to

change

> > zodiac to use secondary progressions, so I cannot understand why

the

> > workability of that method should be the reason to evaluate the

tropical

> > zodiac as more correct as a whole.

> >

> > One can think about the fact that Western astrologers used to use

> > planetary

> > rulerships in the past centuries, but they are not used

extensively any

> > more. Most Western astrologers give the rulerships of Aquarius,

Pisces

> > and

> > Scorpio to outer planets Uranus, Neptune and Pluto. Wouldn't that

be a

> > major

> > change in techiques, unless the planetary rulerships as a whole

would

> > have

> > become only a curiosity because of precession?

> >

> > There's a lot of strictly zodiac based techniques that Indian

sidereal

> > astrologers use, but Western tropical astrologers use only

little, or

> > don't

> > use at all, for example the previously mentioned house

rulerships, but

> > also

> > divisional charts, whole sign houses and aspects (because whole

sign

> > houses

> > is the only house system that gives partly different results with

> > different

> > zodiacs), dasha systems etc. The most used and workable

techniques of

> > Western astrology (transits, progressions, outer planets etc.)

are not

> > dependent on the zodiac.

> >

> > What comes to transits and solar return charts, many Western

astrologers

> > use

> > precessed sidereal returns and then turn them tropical, because

the

> > precession corrected ones have proved to be more accurate.

> >

> > Best wishes, Sari

>