Shabda and mantra (Kavachas...Mental Chanting)

[Guest guest]

Dear Chandrashekhar ji,

 

Unfortunately, I am not an erudite scholar who can quote scriptures. I just gather a little knowledge by listening to learned people and reading this and that. And, I share that little knowledge with others with great abandon. I do not want to pretend to have read all the scriptures or to remember the source of all my knowledge.

 

However, the four-fold division I mentioned (para, pasyanti, madhyama and vaikhari) is supposed to be mentioned in RigVeda and several Upanishats. One specific Upanishad I heard is "Yoga-Kundalini Upanishad", which is a minor upanishad. Even Ganapathyatharva Seersham (aka Ganeshopanishat) refers to the four-fold division of sound when it says "tvam chatvaari vaak" (meaning: Ganesha, the 4 types of sound are made of you).

 

Mother Lalita's 1000 names also extol that she takes the form of Para, Pasyanti, Madhyama and Vaikhari sounds.

 

My impression is that this division is a fundamental concept that must have been mentioned in multiple places in scriptures. Unfortunately, I cannot give specific references due to my limited knowledge.

 

Sarvam SreeKrishnaarpanamastu,

Narasimha

-------------------------------

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-------------------------------

 

> Dear Narasimha,

>

> Thank you for the illuminating information on various types of

> vibrations related to mantra japa. If you do not mind I would like to

> read the scriptures that mention these four divisions of vibrations/

> mantras. Could you therefore point me to the relevant scripture?

>

> Chandrashekhar.

>

> Narasimha P.V.R. Rao wrote:

> >

> > Dear Chandrashekhar ji,

> >

> > Thank you for the info.

> >

> > Though, obviously they are are linked, I want to distinguish between

> > the two divisions.

> >

> > The division you mentioned is about how one chants. One can chant in

> > one of the three styles.

> >

> > The division I mentioned is about various levels of vibrations caused

> > when we chant. Vibrations can be caused in the matter belonging to the

> > sthoola sareera (gross body), sookshma sareera (subtle body), kaarana

> > sareera (causal body) or mahaakaarana sareera (the aakasa tattva body

> > of the entire universe). When someone chants loud, there is vaikhari

> > (vibration in the matter belonging to the gross level of existence),

> > but it does not mean there is no madhyama (vibrations in the matter

> > belonging to the subtle level of existence, i.e. matter of sookshma

> > sareera).

> >

> > These four levels of body capture different levels of maya. At the

> > subtlest level of maya, there only is one mahaakaarana sareera that

> > stores all the memories, experiences and karmas of the entire

> > universe. At a lower level of maya, there are kaarana sareeras (causal

> > bodies) of all the beings. At an even lower level of maya, there are

> > sookshma sareeras (subtle bodies) of all beings. At the

> > lowest/grossest level of maya, there are sthoola sareeras (gross

> > bodies) of all beings.

> >

> > Chanting of any mantra in any of the three levels mentioned by you can

> > cause vibrations (of different intensities) in the four levels of maya.

> >

> > Often, awareness of the subtlest levels of our existence requires us

> > to shut down the awareness of the grosser levels of our existence.

> > Thus, loud chanting that channels more energy into vaikhari level of

> > vibration and can obstruct us from awareness of other levels of

> > existence and channeling more energy into them. However, when an

> > advanced Yogi or a Maharshi chants a mantra even loud, a lot of energy

> > may still be being channeled into the subtler levels of vibration,

> > along with vaikhari.

> >

> > When a great maharshi chants a mantra internally, with full awareness

> > of the mahaakaarana sareera, it can cause vibrations in the matter

> > belonging to the mahaakaarana sareera (which may not be perceptible to

> > ears) and thus impact every being in the universe. It all depends on

> > what kind of vibrations (and how intense) are caused.

> >

> > Sarvam SreeKrishnaarpanamastu,

> > Narasimha

> > -------------------------

> > Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro.home.comcast.net

> > <http://vedicastro.home.comcast.net>

> > Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAstrologer.org

> > <http://www.VedicAstrologer.org>

> > Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagannath.org

> > <http://www.SriJagannath.org>

> > -------------------------

> >

> > > Dear Narasimha/Krishna,

> > >

> > > Ling Purana says " pranavasya tridha smritiH" It mentions Vachika,

> > > Mukhya/Manas and Upaanshu as the three types of mantra japas that are

> > > one greater than other in ascending order. Does the 4 fold division

> > > division indicated by you have anything to do with this?

> > > Chandrashekhar.

> > >

> > > Narasimha P.V.R. Rao wrote:

> > > >

> > > > Dear Krishna,

> > > >

> > > > Fantastic question and I am glad you asked!

> > > >

> > > > The Sanskrit word for sound is "shabda". However, the concept of

> > > > shabda is far more subtle than the modern definition of sound. The

> > > > modern definition of sound is a vibration of the gross matter that is

> > > > meant to be "heard" by the ears. We put too much emphasis on the

> > > > external senses, which can only perceive the gross matter of this

> > > > universe. In the Hindu philosophy, the gross matter is just a small

> > > > part of the universe and there is something subtle behind everything

> > > > gross and it cannot be perceived by the external senses.

> > > >

> > > > In Hindu philosophy, any shabda manifests at 4 different levels -

> > > > para, pashyanti, madhyama and vaikhari. Of these, para is the

> > subtlest

> > > > level and vaikhari is the grossest level. The vaikhari level of a

> > > > shabda manifests grossly (through vibration of gross matter) and one

> > > > can hear it with normal sense organs (ears). The subtler levels of a

> > > > shabda manifest as vibration of subtler levels of matter and they

> > > > cannot be heard by ears.

> > > >

> > > > The vaikhari level of shabda is audible only for small distances. The

> > > > para level of a shabda I make when I say a mantra can be perceived by

> > > > an advanced yogi who may be thousands of miles away! Thus, grosser

> > > > levels are easier to hear but have space and time limitations,

> > whereas

> > > > subtler levels are more difficult to hear but have no space and time

> > > > limitations.

> > > >

> > > > If you say a mantra, it is true that the result of the mantra is

> > > > through the shabda brahma or sound/vibration energy. But don't be

> > > > under the false impression that we are talking about vibration of

> > > > gross matter near you. That is far less significant to have any

> > > > considerable impact. On the other hand, at the subtlest level, the

> > > > entire universe is within you and you can cause vibrations on the

> > > > super-subtle matter of the mahakarana sareera and THAT can have

> > > > tremendous impact on the entire universe.

> > > >

> > > > The goal of a sadhaka is to create more energy at the subtler levels

> > > > of the shabda when saying mantras. It is not easy. But, limiting the

> > > > energy *wasted* on creating the vaikhari level of shabda is a good

> > > > starting point!

> > > >

> > > > I hope it is a little clearer now...

> > > >

> > > > Sarvam SreeKrishnaarpanamastu,

> > > > Narasimha

> > > >

> > > > > Dear Narasimha,

> > > > >

> > > > > I have a basic doubt. We say that the effet of mantras

> > > > > is caused by the vibration they generate (or due to

> > > > > the sound energy). And yet we say that the mantras are

> > > > > less effective when chanted lound.

> > > > >

> > > > > Why is this?

> > > > >

> > > > > Please clarify.

> > > > >

> > > > > Regards,

> > > > > Krishna

[Guest guest]

Dear Narasimha,

 

I understand. Not all that we know maybe from memorized or written down

scriptures and there could be other sources of knowledge. Fourfold

division is not uncommon in Vedic sciences and as you say,

Ganapathyathravasheersham mentioning could be an indication of such a

division.

 

Thank for your illuminating mail. I shall try to find more about this

from Vedas and if I find something, I shall let you know.

 

Chandrashekhar.

 

Narasimha P.V.R. Rao wrote:

>

> Dear Chandrashekhar ji,

>

> Unfortunately, I am not an erudite scholar who can quote scriptures. I

> just gather a little knowledge by listening to learned people and

> reading this and that. And, I share that little knowledge with others

> with great abandon. I do not want to pretend to have read all the

> scriptures or to remember the source of all my knowledge.

>

> However, the four-fold division I mentioned (para, pasyanti, madhyama

> and vaikhari) is supposed to be mentioned in RigVeda and several

> Upanishats. One specific Upanishad I heard is "Yoga-Kundalini

> Upanishad", which is a minor upanishad. Even Ganapathyatharva Seersham

> (aka Ganeshopanishat) refers to the four-fold division of sound when

> it says "tvam chatvaari vaak" (meaning: Ganesha, the 4 types of sound

> are made of you).

>

> Mother Lalita's 1000 names also extol that she takes the form of Para,

> Pasyanti, Madhyama and Vaikhari sounds.

>

> My impression is that this division is a fundamental concept that must

> have been mentioned in multiple places in scriptures. Unfortunately, I

> cannot give specific references due to my limited knowledge.

>

> Sarvam SreeKrishnaarpanamastu,

> Narasimha

> -------------------------

> Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro.home.comcast.net

> <http://vedicastro.home.comcast.net>

> Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAstrologer.org

> <http://www.VedicAstrologer.org>

> Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagannath.org

> <http://www.SriJagannath.org>

> -------------------------

>

> > Dear Narasimha,

> >

> > Thank you for the illuminating information on various types of

> > vibrations related to mantra japa. If you do not mind I would like to

> > read the scriptures that mention these four divisions of vibrations/

> > mantras. Could you therefore point me to the relevant scripture?

> >

> > Chandrashekhar.

> >

> > Narasimha P.V.R. Rao wrote:

> > >

> > > Dear Chandrashekhar ji,

> > >

> > > Thank you for the info.

> > >

> > > Though, obviously they are are linked, I want to distinguish between

> > > the two divisions.

> > >

> > > The division you mentioned is about how one chants. One can chant in

> > > one of the three styles.

> > >

> > > The division I mentioned is about various levels of vibrations caused

> > > when we chant. Vibrations can be caused in the matter belonging to

> the

> > > sthoola sareera (gross body), sookshma sareera (subtle body), kaarana

> > > sareera (causal body) or mahaakaarana sareera (the aakasa tattva body

> > > of the entire universe). When someone chants loud, there is vaikhari

> > > (vibration in the matter belonging to the gross level of existence),

> > > but it does not mean there is no madhyama (vibrations in the matter

> > > belonging to the subtle level of existence, i.e. matter of sookshma

> > > sareera).

> > >

> > > These four levels of body capture different levels of maya. At the

> > > subtlest level of maya, there only is one mahaakaarana sareera that

> > > stores all the memories, experiences and karmas of the entire

> > > universe. At a lower level of maya, there are kaarana sareeras

> (causal

> > > bodies) of all the beings. At an even lower level of maya, there are

> > > sookshma sareeras (subtle bodies) of all beings. At the

> > > lowest/grossest level of maya, there are sthoola sareeras (gross

> > > bodies) of all beings.

> > >

> > > Chanting of any mantra in any of the three levels mentioned by you

> can

> > > cause vibrations (of different intensities) in the four levels of

> maya.

> > >

> > > Often, awareness of the subtlest levels of our existence requires us

> > > to shut down the awareness of the grosser levels of our existence.

> > > Thus, loud chanting that channels more energy into vaikhari level of

> > > vibration and can obstruct us from awareness of other levels of

> > > existence and channeling more energy into them. However, when an

> > > advanced Yogi or a Maharshi chants a mantra even loud, a lot of

> energy

> > > may still be being channeled into the subtler levels of vibration,

> > > along with vaikhari.

> > >

> > > When a great maharshi chants a mantra internally, with full awareness

> > > of the mahaakaarana sareera, it can cause vibrations in the matter

> > > belonging to the mahaakaarana sareera (which may not be

> perceptible to

> > > ears) and thus impact every being in the universe. It all depends on

> > > what kind of vibrations (and how intense) are caused.

> > >

> > > Sarvam SreeKrishnaarpanamastu,

> > > Narasimha

> > > -------------------------

> > > Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro.home.comcast.net

> <http://vedicastro.home.comcast.net>

> > > <http://vedicastro.home.comcast.net

> <http://vedicastro.home.comcast.net>>

> > > Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAstrologer.org

> <http://www.VedicAstrologer.org>

> > > <http://www.VedicAstrologer.org <http://www.VedicAstrologer.org>>

> > > Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagannath.org

> <http://www.SriJagannath.org>

> > > <http://www.SriJagannath.org <http://www.SriJagannath.org>>

> > > -------------------------

> > >

> > > > Dear Narasimha/Krishna,

> > > >

> > > > Ling Purana says " pranavasya tridha smritiH" It mentions Vachika,

> > > > Mukhya/Manas and Upaanshu as the three types of mantra japas

> that are

> > > > one greater than other in ascending order. Does the 4 fold division

> > > > division indicated by you have anything to do with this?

> > > > Chandrashekhar.

> > > >

> > > > Narasimha P.V.R. Rao wrote:

> > > > >

> > > > > Dear Krishna,

> > > > >

> > > > > Fantastic question and I am glad you asked!

> > > > >

> > > > > The Sanskrit word for sound is "shabda". However, the concept of

> > > > > shabda is far more subtle than the modern definition of sound. The

> > > > > modern definition of sound is a vibration of the gross matter

> that is

> > > > > meant to be "heard" by the ears. We put too much emphasis on the

> > > > > external senses, which can only perceive the gross matter of this

> > > > > universe. In the Hindu philosophy, the gross matter is just a

> small

> > > > > part of the universe and there is something subtle behind

> everything

> > > > > gross and it cannot be perceived by the external senses.

> > > > >

> > > > > In Hindu philosophy, any shabda manifests at 4 different levels -

> > > > > para, pashyanti, madhyama and vaikhari. Of these, para is the

> > > subtlest

> > > > > level and vaikhari is the grossest level. The vaikhari level of a

> > > > > shabda manifests grossly (through vibration of gross matter)

> and one

> > > > > can hear it with normal sense organs (ears). The subtler

> levels of a

> > > > > shabda manifest as vibration of subtler levels of matter and they

> > > > > cannot be heard by ears.

> > > > >

> > > > > The vaikhari level of shabda is audible only for small

> distances. The

> > > > > para level of a shabda I make when I say a mantra can be

> perceived by

> > > > > an advanced yogi who may be thousands of miles away! Thus, grosser

> > > > > levels are easier to hear but have space and time limitations,

> > > whereas

> > > > > subtler levels are more difficult to hear but have no space

> and time

> > > > > limitations.

> > > > >

> > > > > If you say a mantra, it is true that the result of the mantra is

> > > > > through the shabda brahma or sound/vibration energy. But don't be

> > > > > under the false impression that we are talking about vibration of

> > > > > gross matter near you. That is far less significant to have any

> > > > > considerable impact. On the other hand, at the subtlest level, the

> > > > > entire universe is within you and you can cause vibrations on the

> > > > > super-subtle matter of the mahakarana sareera and THAT can have

> > > > > tremendous impact on the entire universe.

> > > > >

> > > > > The goal of a sadhaka is to create more energy at the subtler

> levels

> > > > > of the shabda when saying mantras. It is not easy. But,

> limiting the

> > > > > energy *wasted* on creating the vaikhari level of shabda is a good

> > > > > starting point!

> > > > >

> > > > > I hope it is a little clearer now...

> > > > >

> > > > > Sarvam SreeKrishnaarpanamastu,

> > > > > Narasimha

> > > > >

> > > > > > Dear Narasimha,

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I have a basic doubt. We say that the effet of mantras

> > > > > > is caused by the vibration they generate (or due to

> > > > > > the sound energy). And yet we say that the mantras are

> > > > > > less effective when chanted lound.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Why is this?

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Please clarify.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Regards,

> > > > > > Krishna

>

>