Lets follow prabhupada

[Guest guest]

"One who assumes the dress and position of an acharya (and) who speaks against the conclusion of the Srimad Bhagavatam and other scriptures . . . certainly goes to hell for countless lifetimes along with his disciples and whoever else hears such non-devotional talks." Hari-bhakti-vilasa 1.101

[Pankaja_Dasa 1]

jai

[shuvo 0]

 

"One who assumes the dress and position of an acharya (and) who speaks against the conclusion of the Srimad Bhagavatam and other scriptures . . . certainly goes to hell for countless lifetimes along with his disciples and whoever else hears such non-devotional talks." Hari-bhakti-vilasa 1.101

 

Hare Krishna.........

[Guest guest]

moderator's note: post removed

[Murali_Mohan_das 0]

Oooh! Flame-bait if I ever saw it, "Guest".

 

But, let's speak reasonably.

 

Even if, contrary to the teachings of so many Vaishnavas, one *could* achieve God-consciousness alone, let us compare it with crossing the Amazon rainforest. Perhaps one *could* cross the Amazon rainforest alone, but why would one want to? Wouldn't you want a qualified guide?

 

I suppose you tought yourself Calculus and Astrophysics as well?

 

Another example used is: one cannot see the president of the USA without first meeting with one of his representatives. Why should we assume the Supreme Lord is any easier to approach (the Lord's Infinite Mercy is to send Guru to us)?

 

That said, Srila Prabhupada is revered by all Gaudiya-Vaishnavas as one of the foremost distributors of Krishna Prem (Divine Love) in history. He was not the first Guru, and he was not the last. We all need direct association with the Vaishnava. For a better thought-out treatise (by me) on this topic, see:

 

chakra.org/discussions/succJun27_06.html

 

(I'm too new to this forum to post a full link)

 

Srila Prabhupada called Lord Shiva the greatest devotee of Lord Krishna. To the Vaishnava that is the highest praise, and is in no way a dimunition.

[Guest guest]

 

Oooh! Flame-bait if I ever saw it, "Guest".

 

But, let's speak reasonably.

 

Even if, contrary to the teachings of so many Vaishnavas, one *could* achieve God-consciousness alone, let us compare it with crossing the Amazon rainforest. Perhaps one *could* cross the Amazon rainforest alone, but why would one want to? Wouldn't you want a qualified guide?

 

I suppose you tought yourself Calculus and Astrophysics as well?

 

Another example used is: one cannot see the president of the USA without first meeting with one of his representatives. Why should we assume the Supreme Lord is any easier to approach (the Lord's Infinite Mercy is to send Guru to us)?

 

That said, Srila Prabhupada is revered by all Gaudiya-Vaishnavas as one of the foremost distributors of Krishna Prem (Divine Love) in history. He was not the first Guru, and he was not the last. We all need direct association with the Vaishnava. For a better thought-out treatise (by me) on this topic, see:

 

chakra.org/discussions/succJun27_06.html

 

(I'm too new to this forum to post a full link)

 

Srila Prabhupada called Lord Shiva the greatest devotee of Lord Krishna. To the Vaishnava that is the highest praise, and is in no way a dimunition.

 

U know what yes i did learn a lot by myself,i got books and learnt myself and im in lot better position than lot of people who learnt thru others,so dont equate with these amateaurish idealogies of urs

Until ur prabupada Lord Siva was a supreme god,one among the trinity of gods who were not less than each other in their own ways.Thanks to prabupad now Lord Siva is the ulitmate devotee and not a god in himself,if this isnt misleading and degrading a great god then what is?Go follow that self proclaimed one and only guru but invite others.

[Murali_Mohan_das 0]

 

U know what yes i did learn a lot by myself,i got books and learnt myself and im in lot better position than lot of people who learnt thru others,so dont equate with these amateaurish idealogies of urs

Until ur prabupada Lord Siva was a supreme god,one among the trinity of gods who were not less than each other in their own ways.Thanks to prabupad now Lord Siva is the ulitmate devotee and not a god in himself,if this isnt misleading and degrading a great god then what is?Go follow that self proclaimed one and only guru but invite others.

 

No doubt, this is a cheap shot, but it appears grammar and spelling weren't among the topics you studied.

 

Out of curiosity, how do you guage what your position in relation to others is? How do you know what their position is?

 

If you take the time to comprehend the "acintya bedha-bed" (simultaneous and inconceivable unity with and distinction between Jiva-Soul and Bhagavan-Absolute) philosophy, you'll realize that quibling over the position of this aspect of Divinity and that aspect of Divinity is a waste of precious time and energy. I (and I suspect, you) have little conception about the true nature of the various aspects of Divinity. Still, it is said that Chaitanya Mahaprabhu was Krishna coming to taste the mood of Radha. So, if Radha has something which Krishna does not have, but which he desires, then who is really the Master? Evaluating these things is not as simple as looking at the cricket standings in the newspaper.

 

When you say "...degrading a great god", you're asuming there is more than one God. The Muslims got it right with "La Ilaha Il Allah" (There is no God but God). Why quibble about whether the right hand is better than the left?

 

People follow Lord Krishna because he is the "All-Attractive", not because of how great He is or is not. The devotee has no other choice--nothing else matters to him or her once he or she has tasted a drop of prem.

 

Srila Prabhupada never proclaimed himself to be "one and only Guru". He followed the orders of his Gurudev to preach in the West.

 

Gaura Hari!!!

[Guest guest]

 

No doubt, this is a cheap shot, but it appears grammar and spelling weren't among the topics you studied.

 

Out of curiosity, how do you guage what your position in relation to others is? How do you know what their position is?

 

If you take the time to comprehend the "acintya bedha-bed" (simultaneous and inconceivable unity with and distinction between Jiva-Soul and Bhagavan-Absolute) philosophy, you'll realize that quibling over the position of this aspect of Divinity and that aspect of Divinity is a waste of precious time and energy. I (and I suspect, you) have little conception about the true nature of the various aspects of Divinity. Still, it is said that Chaitanya Mahaprabhu was Krishna coming to taste the mood of Radha. So, if Radha has something which Krishna does not have, but which he desires, then who is really the Master? Evaluating these things is not as simple as looking at the cricket standings in the newspaper.

 

When you say "...degrading a great god", you're asuming there is more than one God. The Muslims got it right with "La Ilaha Il Allah" (There is no God but God). Why quibble about whether the right hand is better than the left?

 

People follow Lord Krishna because he is the "All-Attractive", not because of how great He is or is not. The devotee has no other choice--nothing else matters to him or her once he or she has tasted a drop of prem.

 

Srila Prabhupada never proclaimed himself to be "one and only Guru". He followed the orders of his Gurudev to preach in the West.

 

Gaura Hari!!!

 

 

U know what this is exactly what i mean,how can u gauge me if u say i cant guage myself with others in the material world,yea i dont know grammar as good as u do,u mean YOU,usually folks who browse the net for a long time would know it,but u seem to be a newbee so its ok u can make fun of my grammar.

So u mean the muslims r right then y dont u go praise allah rather than krsna?O i forgot there is just one god and its just krsna right?and just one guru and it is ur prabupada.this is hypocracy at its best.

[Nrsinghadev 0]

 

U know what this is exactly what i mean,how can u gauge me if u say i cant guage myself with others in the material world,yea i dont know grammar as good as u do,u mean YOU,usually folks who browse the net for a long time would know it,but u seem to be a newbee so its ok u can make fun of my grammar.

So u mean the muslims r right then y dont u go praise allah rather than krsna?O i forgot there is just one god and its just krsna right?and just one guru and it is ur prabupada.this is hypocracy at its best.

 

 

Dear sir,

 

thus far your contribution to this forum has been nothing but a disturbance. I take it you are the same person who commited Vaishnava aparadha by criticizing the examplary devotee and spiritual master Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada out of the blue in the thread "what is the story of Lord Venkateswara?". My request to you is to cease this crusade against Prabhupada, for it is most devastating for your spiritual development.

This section of the forum is called "Hare Krishna Discussions", so it is not unreasonable to assume that your "let's defame Prabhupada" campaign is not going to have any effect whatsoever.

Irony has it that, simply by writing your comments, you have made it self-evident that you are actually in dire need of guidance from the very type of "middleman" which you seem to despise so much, and your use of that popular but distasteful internet-jargon has nothing to do with establishing this for fact.

So if you really have nothing constructive to contribute to this forum you should really start asking yourself what you are doing here. Since you are apparently in a position superior to alot of other people and are most likely well aware that us fools aren't in the slightest going to be influenced by your woeful remarks anyway, why would you continue wasting your time here?

 

Haribol!

[Murali_Mohan_das 0]

 

...

So if you really have nothing constructive to contribute to this forum you should really start asking yourself what you are doing here. Since you are apparently in a position superior to alot of other people and are most likely well aware that us fools aren't in the slightest going to be influenced by your woeful remarks anyway, why would you continue wasting your time here?

 

Haribol!

 

Mark the words of Nrsinghadev well, dear "Guest". Right now, He is being rather polite. You really don't want to be around Nrsinghadev when He's upset with someone for abusing His devotee.

 

Of course, by now it seems (note the use of the word "seems" which indicates that I am not certain of exactly what your motives are) clear that your intent is to insult and disrupt, and I'm wasting my breath trying to defend myself, but: I associate the net culture of abbreviations and slang to which you refer as being part of the teenie-bopper sub-culture when discussing the latest gossip about Britney Spears. In the discussion groups I tend to read (slashdot.org for instance), people tend to use proper spelling and complete sentences (and a little fore-thought). As for being a "newbie", no doubt I am. Still, I have experience of the Internet from before there was such thing as the World Wide Web, when everything was plain text. Perhaps you were still in diapers then? (note the smiley face "emoticon" which indicates my attempt to be humorous).

 

Of course, now I'm way off topic. The real message is: Chant and Be Happy!

[Guest guest]

Dear respected Vaisnavas. Please accept my humble obeisances. In the beginning when we first came to Krsna consciousness 30 years ago, there was a clear-cut distinction between what was material life, maya, or illusion, and what wasn't. Maya was seen as everything in our lives up to that point-- our many sinful habits, our ignorance and bodily consciousness, our unending longings for a variety of sense enjoyment, and , of course, our determined forgetfulness of God. What wasn't maya was the temple, devotional service, Sankirtan, prasadam, hearing and chanting, reading the Bhagavad-gita and describing the glories of Krsna, associating with our beloved godbrothers, and, of course, following in the footsteps and instructions of a genuine pure devotee. This distinction seemed like black and white.

 

But as the years passed, these obvious distinctions faded into subtleties that were much more difficult to discern. As the more obvious influence of passion and ignorance slowly diminish because of the strength of our devotional service, the influence of maya became more subtle. The distress of our long, ignorant life of passion and longings had caused great pain and had been more that enough reason to surrender to our new life of devotional service. That was also true of the indolence and lethargy of ignorance. The miseries produced by the influence of these two modes was certainly a clear-cut impetus for taking shelter of Krsna in our regulated devotional service and seeking protection from the many miserable reactions to our sinful lives. But the further we progressed in devotional service, the more subtle became the illusory allurements.

 

When I first joined Srila Prabhupada in 1969, it was very easy to engage in Krsna consciousness. All you had to do was be at the temple. 24 hours a day there were devotional activities going on and all you needed to do was join in. We understood from Srila Prabhupada that Krsna consciousness was like a light. When you engaged in hearing or chanting the light of Krsna consciousness was on, like when you come into a room and flick on the switch. But when you stopped chanting or hearing then immediately maya would rush in filling the void just as darkness rushes in filling the room when the light switch is again turned off. So we were always trying to fill up our whole day with regulative devotional service, while all the time chanting continuously. All the devotees carried schedules outlining every minute of their days and were constantly trying to find the time to fit in another hour of reading, etc.

 

We were convinced that a devotee, even a neophyte, can engage 24 hours a day in transcendental activities. This was shown by Srila Prabhupada when he organized the temples in America and implemented the regulative devotional principles to be followed by his disciples within the temples . We rose at 4 AM. and immediately after offering obeisances to Lord Krsna and Srila Prabhupada, we would clean our body because we were going to visit the Deities. Therefore, our showering was for the purpose of pleasing Krsna and during our bathe we would chanting the Holy Name. After the bathe, we would apply telok all over our body, a regulative principle, and while doing so would chant the different names of Krsna. Then we would dress ourselves nicely in clean devotional dress, wanting to satisfy the deities by a sincere efforts to please them by appearing before them without dirty clothing This devotional attitude and following of different regulative principles helped the neophyte devotee keep his mind on Krsna. Next, the devotee would travel to the temple for the purpose of worshipping the Lord and , upon arriving, would offer his humble obeisances to his guru, to Krsna, and to all of the assembled Vaisnavas there. When the curtains would open, the devotee would bow down and recite various prayers to please Krsna and to beg His mercy. During aroti, the devotee would look at the Deity and dance for Him and watch the different things being offered to the Lord by the pujari. All these activities fixed his mind on Krsna for the whole duration of the aroti, and after aroti there were more devotional prayers and there was Tulasi worship. This was all performed under the direction of the devotional regulative principles, and all these activities were purifying for the bhakta. Between these different activities there would sometimes be a slight pause, and the devotee would chant the holy Name constantly to keep his mind fixed on Krsna. After Tulasi puja, there were more prayers and worship, followed by two hours of japa, or the chanting of the Holy Name. During this time, there was no socializing with other and the devotee attentively concetrated his mind on chanting and training the mind to stay fixed on the transcendental sound vibration.

 

And this was just the beginning of the day. It hadn't even become daylight yet. The whole day was like that---every minute filled with devotional activities with no time for maya. All the devotees had a single purpose . Everyone just wanted to help Srila Prabhupada push on this movement( well, looking back, some may say differently). But nowadays it is not so easy. There are so many factions fighting relentlessly and there is corruption in much of the leadership. Some older devotees are claiming our books are sexists or contain teachings that are based on quaint traditions and outdated principles, which causes much confusion. In much of the communication between the devotees, especially on the Internet, The ideals of Vaisnava respect and etiquette are fading into obscurity, Most of the day the temples are empty, and the glories of spending our days on sankirtan is virtually unknown by new bhaktas.

 

Without so many things to inspire us to engage in devotional service, our idle minds become furtile ground into which maya can sneak. As it becomes more difficult for us to recognize the more subtle forms of maya we again can fall prey to material consciousness. Again there is becoming only one hope for us to be spared the ravages of more repetitions of birth and death. Again we must renew our determination to take complete shelter of Krsna--- so that He can kindly come down and rescue us from the vast ocean of the material nature.

 

If we gradually fall asleep again and forget about this proposal of surrender to Krsna, the Supreme Personality, by complete surrender, humility, and submissiveness to the bona fide pure devotee, and remain on the mental platform then we will again be subjected to birth, death , disease, and the awful miseries of growing old. If we foolishly abandon the shelter of Srila Prabhupada and again rely on our own abilities of speculative analysis for gaining "knowledge", and the false renunciations of impersonalism , or seek shelter of non-devotional processes of counseling, relationship training, etc., then we are going to gradually disqualify our selves from achieving our goal of love of God.

 

Affectionately Mahananda dasa

[Guest guest]

post deleated

[Guest guest]

Hare Krishna!

 

to the atheist poster (the one above me)....it is sad you ridicule people here. I am not sure why you are visiting this forum.....just to make fun of people!!!

 

If you have any dignity and respect for yourself....please leave....this is a forum where people converse about God....now...if you dont have any faith.....you can might as well leave...there is no business for a guy like you!!!

 

Dont be a disgrace to yourself and degrade further!!

 

 

Haribol!

 

anand

[Guest guest]

 

Originally Posted by Nrsinghadev

thus far your contribution to this forum has been nothing but a disturbance. I take it you are the same person who commited Vaishnava aparadha by criticizing the examplary devotee and spiritual master Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada out of the blue in the thread "what is the story of Lord Venkateswara?". My request to you is to cease this crusade against Prabhupada, for it is most devastating for your spiritual development.

 

He also appears to be the same person who was flaming everyone in the "karma is useless" thread. Exact same writing style, temperament, agenda, etc.

[Danielle Field 0]

I was just looking at the entry about devotional life at the beginning of Iskcon and it sounds so nice and I can only imagine that it was. What else would make people want to give up free love and drugs, it had to be something higher. People were thirsty then for a different way of life and Prabhupada quenched that thirst with an artistic flair that has been unparalelled since his departure.

 

I yearned for the association of devotees and joined an Iskcon temple in Scotland - Karuna Bhavan. The devotees there claimed to be the only temple in the world that was actually following Prabhupada. The atmosphere within the temple, however, told a very different story. In order to engage in devotional service 24 hours a day devotee association was sacrificed. The women woke at 2.30 - 3.00 am after 5 hours sleep. We were only allowed to eat twice a day, once before we left for sankirtan once before we went to bed. Devotees were falling asleep in the streets from exhaustion. Painkillers, sanitary towels, various other "luxury" items were only dispensed by the ashram leader when it was deemed necessary and witheld as a form of punishment if it was seen fit.

 

This fundamentalist approach led to an absolute destruction of the spiritual atmosphere that Prabhupada imbibed in his devotees. Now I hear that because Karuna Bhavan is achieving so well in the book sales department other temples are emulating its practices in order to maintain economically Iskcon's shell without nurturing its heart.

 

Devotees need to be able to discuss their previous experiences and associate with each other openly in order to overcome maya. There has to be time for friendship, it is also service, not just illusion. Does anyone know of a temple in the world where the original spirit of Iskcon still flourishes or has the whole institution suffered under the illusion of individualism so rife in the wider world that is eating away at Iskcon's heart?

[Guest guest]

My experience is that there were problems in "The Good Old Days" and there are quite a number of scholarly sociological studies done, academic books written, and websites created by persons who very much admired and loved Srila Prabhupada which delineate the various problems extant in ISKCON from the very, very beginning of the movement and which continue to this day.

 

These studies, books, and websites exist not to bash Srila Prabhupada and the devotees but to help future generations understand some of the mistakes that were made on the surface level aka the relative plane [versus the Absolute platform] so that each successive generation does not have to reinvent the wheel, so to speak, in the quest for the Absolute Truth.

 

The Spiritual World exists within our hearts in a dimension called Vrndavana. If we are strict with our sadhana: sincere and serious, and have enough sukritya from past lives we can see this world no matter where we are.

 

Those who are impure cannot see the spiritual world even if they are right smack in the middle of the holy dhama or living in a Temple as the Temple President or wandering the world as a sannyasi or a GBC. To them the real Vrndavana remains totally covered by the concealing grace of the Lord.

 

In my opinion the "good old days" on the material plane of KC is just an illusion because from what I experienced in KC there WERE problems from the very very beginning which just needed time to manifest themselves publicly on a widespread basis. If you were not aware of the problems back in the day as acutely as you might be aware of them now does not mean that these problems did not exist, it just means you were not aware of them.

 

Having said that, my main point is that there are two Vrndavanas: the real Vrndavana plus a surface replica of it. A Temple is like a portal into that world. If you are not pure in heart then you can never see the real Temples that Prabhupada created nor can you ever see the real holy dhamas.

 

Instead you will only see the faux Vrndavana that Maya creates to keep those who are not qualified out of the real Vrndavana, which only the pure in heart can enter, see, and perceive. Mahadeva Gopesvara stands guardian at all four corners of Braja Mandala to make sure that no unqualified person can enter. The previous acharyas have written extensively about this topic.

 

Therefore if you want to experience "The Good Old Days" of KC then my recommendation is there is only one way to do that and that is to purify your heart. Then you will see the most miraculous things that the Lord only bestows by his revealing grace and through the mercy of all of our Divine Guardians in our parampara such as His Divine Grace Srila Prabhupada.

 

Please forgive me if you feel that I have not expressed myself correctly.

[Danielle Field 0]

No that's great. I've only ever heard of the good old days being as such by people who used them as a stick to beat me with. At Karuna Bhavan we were held responsible for the deterioration of the movement and it was inconducive to developing the right mentality to see the dhama with. I thank you for getting back to me and appreciate your contribution. Take care.

[theist 1]

 

U know what yes i did learn a lot by myself,i got books and learnt myself and im in lot better position than lot of people who learnt thru others,so dont equate with these amateaurish idealogies of urs ....

 

 

No soul is an island completely unto themselves. Yes you got those books and learned alot even apart from taken a regular structured course. This is also my prefered method.

 

But to call this as being "self-taught" is really a misnomer. Who wrote those books you have learned from? Don't you feel a sense of gratitude towards the author who you learned from through his books? And if you accepted teaching from that author are you then not the student and he the taecher at least in an informal way? Be honest little soul.

 

Then the question becomes who taught the teacher? He also could not have learned in a vaccum. And that stretches back to who taught the teacher's teacher all the way back to Lord Brahma in this universe. IOW's parampara. It is inescapable. Nor should we even try. Parampara rules.

 

The problem of this erroneous conception of 'self-taught' also arises from within the groupings of people who have taken to the most obvious and socially acceptable structure of a parampara. They in misunderstanding what it really means to be in line with guru's teachings, having only accepted the externals, then label all others outside their little cliques disparagingly as being those fools who are thinking they can become self-taught by avoiding our little scene.

 

Such are guilty of the same mistake as those who while being informaly taught declare themselves to be self-taught out of a false sense of pride.

 

The only self-taught person in all of existence is Sri Krsna. Period, and there is no number two in that category. Ultimately there is only one teacher, Krsna, and all others are students.

 

Another way of seeing this is someone who thinks he has learned Bhagavad-gita "by himselfwith nobody else's help". That attitude is a sure sign that such a person knows absolutely nothing about Bhagavad-gita. Krsna reveals Himself through Bhagavad-gita from within the heart. If we haven't hear Bhagavad-gita from Krsna then we haven't heard Bhagavad-gita

 

The "self-taught" cannot even be called "self-delusioned" because even that requires the action of Krsna's illusory energy,therefore the "self-taught" are really only delusioned selves.

 

We are 100% dependant on Krsna at every step.