[vedic astrology] Oneness and Manyness of Forms (What Parasara Advocates...)

[Guest guest]

Pranaam Sanjay,

 

> This statement of philosophy is fine for beginners and the list. Don't waste

> my time with this.

> That is why I say that the understanding of jyotish depends on how high one

> gets in undrstanding the philosophies.

 

I tried my best to highlight how all forms essentially give a similar experience after you reach a certain spiritual development stage and yet how choice of a specific form can be important in deciding how fast you reach that stage. IMHO, there are many valuable lessons hidden in the analogy I put forward.

 

Out of all the mails I have written on this subject so far, I personally consider the latest mail the best and the most lucid. Unfortunately, I cannot expect everyone to share my sentiments! So, thank you for your feedback.

 

I am sorry my effort was found to be a waste of time by you. I will try to not waste your time in future.

 

> Pranam Narasimhaji,

>

> This is is beautiful write up.

>

> With my limited understanding, I would surely belive the statement:

> "But a devotee of Kaali like Ramakrishna will eventually reach the

> stage where he sees Kaali in flowers, trees etc (just as you may

> aspire to see Vishnu in everything). A great devotee of Shiva will

> eventually see Shiva in everything."

>

> Paramhamsa Yogananda saw Kali in the vastness of the night sky.

>

> Thanks

>

> Souvik

 

Dear Souvik, thank you for your kind words.

 

Also, Hari, thank you for quoting Abhinava Vidyatirtha Mahaswamigal. Very wise words indeed.

 

May the light of Brahman shine within,

Narasimha

-------------------------------

Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro.home.comcast.net

Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAstrologer.org

Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagannath.org

-------------------------------

 

> | om gurave namah |

> Dear Narasimha

> This statement of philosophy is fine for beginners and the list. Don't waste

> my time with this.

> It is obvious that it is you who is still stuck with name and are not

> willing to accept that vishnu really means sarva-vyapakesa or shiva is a

> bala-naama (Dayananda saraswati in Rig Veda translation) etc.

> That is why I say that the understanding of jyotish depends on how high one

> gets in undrstanding the philosophies.

> In any case this still does not give your viewpoint about 9th house and 12th

> house and form etc...so I am ending the discussion here as I leave you to

> think.

> I am going to be off lists for a month at least for now as I have to go to

> Novi Sad, Serbia.

> Best wishes and warm regards,

> Sanjay Rath

>

>

> _____

>

> Pranaam Sanjay,

>

> > (1) Given that Parasara explicitly mentioned Shiva and Gouri in the

> context

> > of ishta devata, I take objection to anyone who claims that they cannot be

> > ishta devatas and only Vishnu's forms can be.

> > [s.Rath:] Again form! There is no form in the 12th house. There cannot be

> a

> > form in the 12th house. This is where everykind of form ends. This is

> where

> > the body or bodies end. This is the state of the body at death.

>

> Let me respectfully remind you that this whole discussion is about forms. I

> will write a little later on why different forms are even needed.

>

> > Have I not given such a clear and lucid explanation about the meaning of

> > 12th house and vishnu as 'sarva-vyapakesa'. Then tell me from the physical

> > universe viewpoint.

> > Is vishnu there in the flower? The answer is yes

> > Is Vishnu there in the tree? The answer is yes

>

> That's all fine. But a devotee of Kaali like Ramakrishna will eventually

> reach the stage where he sees Kaali in flowers, trees etc (just as you may

> aspire to see Vishnu in everything). A great devotee of Shiva will

> eventually see Shiva in everything.

>

> It is possible to devote to several deities and eventually start seeing the

> deity in everything that exists.

>

> Even as you exclaim "again form!", you ARE getting lost in forms and

> thinking that only Vishnu's form has the characteristic you explained above.

>

> In order to explain this more clearly, let me go back to the analogy I gave

> earlier. This fantastic analogy is from my spiritual guru.

>

> -------------- Quote Begin --------------

> Imagine God to be a bright star in the sky. When you see from a distance,

> star seems tiny and you conclude that there is only one God. If you start

> moving towards God, you realize as you get closer that the star is in

> reality a huge diamond with 330 million faces. Each face is several miles

> long and wide and has various attributes (gunas). One face may be red and

> hot and another may be blue and cold etc. So, as you get closer to the

> diamond, you have to pick one face to get close to.

>

> Now, when you get too close to a face, the whole world will seem to have the

> attributes of that face. For example, if you get too close to a face that is

> cold and blue, then the whole world will feel cold and blue to you. In other

> words, the God you are getting close to is the Supreme god of the world and

> fills the entire world as you experience it.

>

> This is the ultimate goal in sadhana for one adhering to Dwaita siddhanta

> (duality). For them, getting close to ishta devata and securing a place near

> the feet is the highest goal.

>

> For some, there is a next stage: As you get closer and closer to the face

> you picked, you finally merge with it! This is the ultimate goal in sadhana

> for one adhering to Visishtaadwaita.

>

> To Advaitis, this communion with a Saguna ("with attributes") form of God is

> not the final goal. The final goal is to break through the face and jump

> into the inside of the diamond. As you break through the face of the diamond

> into which you merge and jump into the interior of the diamond, you no

> longer perceive the faces of the diamond or the world outside. There are no

> longer any objects or attributes. The experiencer, experienced and

> experience all merge into one.

> -------------- Quote End --------------

>

> Read the above analogy carefully. Imagine Vishnu, Shiva etc to be faces of

> the diamond in the above analogy. If you get too close to Vishnu, you will

> indeed see Vishnu in everything and you 'realize' that Vishnu is the supreme

> god of this universe and fills everything that exists. You see Vishnu in

> even Shiva. Similarly, if you get too close to Shiva, you will indeed see

> Shiva in everything and you 'realize' that Shiva is the supreme god of this

> universe and fills everything that exists. You see Shiva in even Vishnu.

>

> It is as simple as that.

>

> But then, one may ask what is the importance of picking ishta devata based

> on chart. If it is possible to see Vishnu in Shiva or Shiva in Vishnu, what

> is the big deal in choosing a deity? Why can't one pray to a random deity?

>

> The answer is that the stage of perceiving the ishta devata in all gods and

> everything that exists has not been reached by most people. Our ishta devata

> prescriptions are for people who are yet to reach that stage. In terms of my

> analogy, the journey to different faces of the diamond takes different times

> based on where you stand right now. If you pick a face that is closest to

> you based on where you are, you reach the diamond faster. For example, if

> you choose a face on the other side, it will take considerably longer to

> reach it. On the contrary, if you select a face that is closest to you, you

> reach it faster.

>

> Similarly, if you choose a form (face of the diamond of divinity) that is

> closest to you based on where you stand in karmic evolution (i.e. based on

> all previous karmas and samskaras), you reach god faster. Once you reach the

> chosen face and get too close to it, you will see that deity in the entire

> universe. Someone with different samskaras may choose a different deity and

> reach a different face and that person will see that deity in the entire

> universe. There is no contradiction here!

>

> Thus, while trying to surrender to a random deity may eventually work,

> surrendering to some specific deities may work faster based on your previous

> karmas. That is what astrologers should try to figure out. Instead of

> setting one on a different course, if we help one continue the course one

> was on already (from various lives), we would have done a good thing!

>

> Thus, my humble appeal is this: Let us not restrict to one deity (e.g.

> Vishnu) based on OUR OWN samskaras. Let us recommend all deities based on

> the native's inclination, samskaras and karmas.

>

> I hope my view on prescribing only Vishnu's avataras as ishta devatas is

> better understood after this detailed mail!

>

> * * *

> <snip>

>

> May the light of Brahman shine within,

> Narasimha

> -------------------------------

> Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro.home.comcast.net

> Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAstrologer.org

> Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagannath.org

> -------------------------------

[Guest guest]

Dear Narasimha,

Your mail was, indeed, a very lucid explanation of the Supreme Being in

Nirakara Niramaya form. The matter of progress from Dvaita to advaita

was beautifully explained.

Chandrashekhar.

 

Narasimha P.V.R. Rao wrote:

>

> Pranaam Sanjay,

>

> > This statement of philosophy is fine for beginners and the list.

> Don't waste

> > my time with this.

> > That is why I say that the understanding of jyotish depends on how

> high one

> > gets in undrstanding the philosophies.

>

> I tried my best to highlight how all forms essentially give a similar

> experience after you reach a certain spiritual development stage and

> yet how choice of a specific form can be important in deciding how

> fast you reach that stage. IMHO, there are many valuable lessons

> hidden in the analogy I put forward.

>

> Out of all the mails I have written on this subject so far, I

> personally consider the latest mail the best and the most lucid.

> Unfortunately, I cannot expect everyone to share my sentiments! So,

> thank you for your feedback.

>

> I am sorry my effort was found to be a waste of time by you. I will

> try to not waste your time in future.

>

> > Pranam Narasimhaji,

> >

> > This is is beautiful write up.

> >

> > With my limited understanding, I would surely belive the statement:

> > "But a devotee of Kaali like Ramakrishna will eventually reach the

> > stage where he sees Kaali in flowers, trees etc (just as you may

> > aspire to see Vishnu in everything). A great devotee of Shiva will

> > eventually see Shiva in everything."

> >

> > Paramhamsa Yogananda saw Kali in the vastness of the night sky.

> >

> > Thanks

> >

> > Souvik

>

> Dear Souvik, thank you for your kind words.

>

> Also, Hari, thank you for quoting Abhinava Vidyatirtha Mahaswamigal.

> Very wise words indeed.

>

> May the light of Brahman shine within,

> Narasimha

> -------------------------

> Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro.home.comcast.net

> <http://vedicastro.home.comcast.net>

> Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAstrologer.org

> <http://www.VedicAstrologer.org>

> Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagannath.org

> <http://www.SriJagannath.org>

> -------------------------

>

> > | om gurave namah |

> > Dear Narasimha

> > This statement of philosophy is fine for beginners and the list.

> Don't waste

> > my time with this.

> > It is obvious that it is you who is still stuck with name and are not

> > willing to accept that vishnu really means sarva-vyapakesa or shiva is a

> > bala-naama (Dayananda saraswati in Rig Veda translation) etc.

> > That is why I say that the understanding of jyotish depends on how

> high one

> > gets in undrstanding the philosophies.

> > In any case this still does not give your viewpoint about 9th house

> and 12th

> > house and form etc...so I am ending the discussion here as I leave

> you to

> > think.

> > I am going to be off lists for a month at least for now as I have to

> go to

> > Novi Sad, Serbia.

> > Best wishes and warm regards,

> > Sanjay Rath

> >

> >

> > _____

> >

> > Pranaam Sanjay,

> >

> > > (1) Given that Parasara explicitly mentioned Shiva and Gouri in the

> > context

> > > of ishta devata, I take objection to anyone who claims that they

> cannot be

> > > ishta devatas and only Vishnu's forms can be.

> > > [s.Rath:] Again form! There is no form in the 12th house. There

> cannot be

> > a

> > > form in the 12th house. This is where everykind of form ends. This is

> > where

> > > the body or bodies end. This is the state of the body at death.

> >

> > Let me respectfully remind you that this whole discussion is about

> forms. I

> > will write a little later on why different forms are even needed.

> >

> > > Have I not given such a clear and lucid explanation about the

> meaning of

> > > 12th house and vishnu as 'sarva-vyapakesa'. Then tell me from the

> physical

> > > universe viewpoint.

> > > Is vishnu there in the flower? The answer is yes

> > > Is Vishnu there in the tree? The answer is yes

> >

> > That's all fine. But a devotee of Kaali like Ramakrishna will eventually

> > reach the stage where he sees Kaali in flowers, trees etc (just as

> you may

> > aspire to see Vishnu in everything). A great devotee of Shiva will

> > eventually see Shiva in everything.

> >

> > It is possible to devote to several deities and eventually start

> seeing the

> > deity in everything that exists.

> >

> > Even as you exclaim "again form!", you ARE getting lost in forms and

> > thinking that only Vishnu's form has the characteristic you

> explained above.

> >

> > In order to explain this more clearly, let me go back to the analogy

> I gave

> > earlier. This fantastic analogy is from my spiritual guru.

> >

> > -------------- Quote Begin --------------

> > Imagine God to be a bright star in the sky. When you see from a

> distance,

> > star seems tiny and you conclude that there is only one God. If you

> start

> > moving towards God, you realize as you get closer that the star is in

> > reality a huge diamond with 330 million faces. Each face is several

> miles

> > long and wide and has various attributes (gunas). One face may be

> red and

> > hot and another may be blue and cold etc. So, as you get closer to the

> > diamond, you have to pick one face to get close to.

> >

> > Now, when you get too close to a face, the whole world will seem to

> have the

> > attributes of that face. For example, if you get too close to a face

> that is

> > cold and blue, then the whole world will feel cold and blue to you.

> In other

> > words, the God you are getting close to is the Supreme god of the

> world and

> > fills the entire world as you experience it.

> >

> > This is the ultimate goal in sadhana for one adhering to Dwaita

> siddhanta

> > (duality). For them, getting close to ishta devata and securing a

> place near

> > the feet is the highest goal.

> >

> > For some, there is a next stage: As you get closer and closer to the

> face

> > you picked, you finally merge with it! This is the ultimate goal in

> sadhana

> > for one adhering to Visishtaadwaita.

> >

> > To Advaitis, this communion with a Saguna ("with attributes") form

> of God is

> > not the final goal. The final goal is to break through the face and jump

> > into the inside of the diamond. As you break through the face of the

> diamond

> > into which you merge and jump into the interior of the diamond, you no

> > longer perceive the faces of the diamond or the world outside. There

> are no

> > longer any objects or attributes. The experiencer, experienced and

> > experience all merge into one.

> > -------------- Quote End --------------

> >

> > Read the above analogy carefully. Imagine Vishnu, Shiva etc to be

> faces of

> > the diamond in the above analogy. If you get too close to Vishnu,

> you will

> > indeed see Vishnu in everything and you 'realize' that Vishnu is the

> supreme

> > god of this universe and fills everything that exists. You see Vishnu in

> > even Shiva. Similarly, if you get too close to Shiva, you will

> indeed see

> > Shiva in everything and you 'realize' that Shiva is the supreme god

> of this

> > universe and fills everything that exists. You see Shiva in even Vishnu.

> >

> > It is as simple as that.

> >

> > But then, one may ask what is the importance of picking ishta devata

> based

> > on chart. If it is possible to see Vishnu in Shiva or Shiva in

> Vishnu, what

> > is the big deal in choosing a deity? Why can't one pray to a random

> deity?

> >

> > The answer is that the stage of perceiving the ishta devata in all

> gods and

> > everything that exists has not been reached by most people. Our

> ishta devata

> > prescriptions are for people who are yet to reach that stage. In

> terms of my

> > analogy, the journey to different faces of the diamond takes

> different times

> > based on where you stand right now. If you pick a face that is

> closest to

> > you based on where you are, you reach the diamond faster. For

> example, if

> > you choose a face on the other side, it will take considerably longer to

> > reach it. On the contrary, if you select a face that is closest to

> you, you

> > reach it faster.

> >

> > Similarly, if you choose a form (face of the diamond of divinity)

> that is

> > closest to you based on where you stand in karmic evolution (i.e.

> based on

> > all previous karmas and samskaras), you reach god faster. Once you

> reach the

> > chosen face and get too close to it, you will see that deity in the

> entire

> > universe. Someone with different samskaras may choose a different

> deity and

> > reach a different face and that person will see that deity in the entire

> > universe. There is no contradiction here!

> >

> > Thus, while trying to surrender to a random deity may eventually work,

> > surrendering to some specific deities may work faster based on your

> previous

> > karmas. That is what astrologers should try to figure out. Instead of

> > setting one on a different course, if we help one continue the

> course one

> > was on already (from various lives), we would have done a good thing!

> >

> > Thus, my humble appeal is this: Let us not restrict to one deity (e.g.

> > Vishnu) based on OUR OWN samskaras. Let us recommend all deities

> based on

> > the native's inclination, samskaras and karmas.

> >

> > I hope my view on prescribing only Vishnu's avataras as ishta devatas is

> > better understood after this detailed mail!

> >

> > * * *

> > <snip>

> >

> > May the light of Brahman shine within,

> > Narasimha

> > -------------------------

> > Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro.home.comcast.net

> <http://vedicastro.home.comcast.net>

> > Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAstrologer.org

> <http://www.VedicAstrologer.org>

> > Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagannath.org

> <http://www.SriJagannath.org>

> > -------------------------

>

>