Guest guest Posted June 7, 2006 Report Share Posted June 7, 2006 Dear Krishna, Wendy, Balaji, Rui, Patrice and All Learned Members, I have been reading all the posts with great interest concerning the timing issue regarding Padre Pio's natal chart. Since it was I who made the mistake in the first post with a Virgo ASC I have to admit that I have not been comfortable with the placement of the Asc since then. At first, I couldn't quite put my finger on it, but it was obviously apparent that Virgo ASC just didn't support the Padre's life events. Then the degree issue of Libra and its nakshatra star lord differing from Chitra to Swati etc.. Wendy, you referenced Doris Chase Doane books for LMT in 1887 vs Meridian Standard Time and I have no doubt about its author''s authenticity or yours. But, something seemed off and there seem to be still a question about Time Zones. Because my doubt was driving me crazy, I took the matter into further research. . Especially, when we have been noticing more and more lately with older charts and foreign ones too that Time and Time Zones can be different than what is in reality. So for my own sanity and knowledge, I have taken several hours to research and in fact scoured the Internet for more information and have poured over my ancient maps, atlases and almanacs to see if there was something to the Timing issue. Especially, since Astrodatabank reported a correction of using LMT instead of GMT. I think I have come to a reasonable compromise that might just be agreeable for everyone. If you bear with me, I have outlined it in the following. First of all, I have noticed with the Vedic software programs I have and that others use, that there can be a wide difference (or even a small difference) in the calculations used for casting a natal chart. Sometimes the degrees of Asc can be slightly off or greatly off, placing the Asc in another house completely. Not to mention disturbing the placement or Nakshatra lords of other planets. I have found though, that the updated and newer Vedic software have (or at least the reputable ones) the most recent mathematical computations from the Jet pulpulsion Laboratory that NASA relies on. The atomic clock used for Universal Time at 180* meridian Standard is not only used by NASA but by other agencies to keep time. It has been installed and kept updated in a few new or updated Vedic software for the constant changing of the meridian change of rotation and leap seconds each year. The sidereal ephemeris used by Betz and the Swiss ephemeris are two that I favor. Even so, not to take anything at true face value when there is doubt, I find for me that cross referencing and researching the matter to be objective to my understanding and comfort level. The most baffling of researches was not to find anything that supported the 1893 passage and acceptance of the Standard Meridian Time. I couldn't find a thing! Not one thing. Yikes. However, this is what I did find. 1840 was the first year that used a Naval Standard Meridian Time for shipping. Then the railroads. 1880 the British Empire was the first to implement a Standard Meridian for daily use across all matters. 1883 a proposal was made by the United States to use a Meridian Standard Time for not only railroads, shipping, daily use for all ,but also to create 24 Time Zones worldwide for business and communication. 1884 at the International Meridian Conference this was enacted world wide. Also, I found that in reality there were small segments of countries or countries that did not recognize the legal GMT right a way. It was not until 1929 that all countries and regions worldwide accepted the legal use of GMT. So, in the meantime, since 1884, clocks were made for those countries or regions who did not accept GMT and wanted to keep LMT, to have two second hands on the face of their clocks. One was for GMT and the other for LMT. I also found that in some countries and regions the difference between LMT and GMT was great. However, like in the small city of Pietrilcina, Italy it was a very small difference. LMT is noted correctly being 0:59 East if one were to calculate using Betz or Swiss ephemeris. 0:54 East if using another calculation for ephemeris.. This small difference creates a difference of two degrees in the Libra Asc which changes the Nakshatra star Lord from 5* Chitra/Ma to 7* Swati/Rahu However, GMT was legally in effect for Pietrilcina, Italy since 1884 ,thereby making its GMT Standard Time +1:00:00 (CET)East of GMT. CET means Central Europe Time. CEDT means Central Europe Daylight Time, which was not enacted until 1918. Here is the good news. Because the difference in LMT and GMT is so slight, if one were to put into the software computer the standard time of GMT +1.00 East it is almost the same accept for a few second movements as if one were putting in the LMT used by the Swiss or Betz ephemeris. Please don't get confused and double check to make sure your computer software program is not automatically putting in +2.00 (Daylight Summer Time) giving a 23* Virgo ASC or 0.83, which is also incorrect and will give a 7* Libra - Swati/Ra I have included below a few links for further reading for those interested and I would also like to note that in the Links Table of the Jyotish-Vidya forum there are two folders that comprehensively cover the subjects of World Time Zone, History of Time, Meridian Standard Time, Universal Time and Daylight Savings Time across the globe; not to forget GMT vs LMT. Here I humbly put forward what I think is acceptable for the Timing of the Padre's Natal chart. Padre Pio 25 May 1887 16:10 (1:00:00 CET) East of GMT 14 E 51' 00 - 41 N 12' 00' Pietrilcina, Italy Wednesday Sun Rise: 04:39:13 Full Moon: May 22nd (CET) means Central Standard European Time - no daylight savings. Nearest Town: Benevento, Italy (Southern Italy) Lahiri: ASC 5* Libra 26' 30.98" Chitra/Mars Vimshottari Dasa: Ra Me Ra Sa Navamsa Lagna: Scorpio with Jupiter Death: 23 Sept 1968 02:30 CET 26* Cancer - Ashlesha/Me or CEDT (daylight Savings) 15*Cancer - Pushya/Sa Dasa: Ve Sa Ke Mo The only thing I couldn't change or compromise on was the Nakshatra star lord from Chitra/Ma to Swati/Ra. But, I feel the Chitra/Ma works well and reinforces the 6/8 house position from the Asc Libra/Ve to Taurus/Ve with conjunct Ma 4* (star lord Su) and wide orb combust Sun 11* (star lord Mo) and Mercury 9* (star lord Su). Also, Mars 4* (star lord Su) aspects 4th house Leo/Su with Rahu 0*(star lord Ketu). Also Taurus/Ve is 12th and 2nd from Gemini/Me with Mo 13* (star lord Ra), Ve 21* (star lord Ju) and Sa 27* (star Lord Ju). Ju (rt.) 4* Libra (star lord Ma) is ruler of third house of communication and natural ninth hse of spiritual, teaching, Dharma Sag. and 6th hse of health and enimity and natural 12th hse of loss and renunciation Pisces. etc. A few References are below. I hope my findings are helpful and plausible to everyone. Comments anyone? As Always, Uttara www.timeanddate.com (CET) http://www.btinternet.com~philipr/timeline.htm “Navies in Transition” http://www.ciolek.com/PAPERS/GLOBAL/1800.html “Global Networking: a Timeline 1800 – 1899” http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_Euopean_Time http://www.fallingrain.com/world/IT/0/Pietrelcina.html http://physics.nist.gov/GenInt/Time/biblio.html Ä Walk through Time” http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Meridian_Conference www.greenwichmeantime.com Ïtaly” “Central European time” “Europe Summer time” Jyotish-Vidya forum - Links Table (two foldeers) "Lord, make me an instrument of Your peace. Where there is hatred, let me sow love, where there is injury, pardon; where there is doubt, faith; where there is despair, hope; where there is darkness, light; and where there is sadness joy. O, Divine Master, grant that I may not so much seek to be consoled as to console; to be understood as to understand; to be loved as to love; for it is in giving that we receive; it is in pardoning that we are pardoned; it is in dying that we are born to eternal life." St. Francis "Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate, our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness, that most frightens us. There is nothing enlightened about shrinking so that other people won't feel insecure around you...As we let our own light shine, we unconsciously give other people permission to do the same. As we are liberated from our own fear, our presence automatically liberates others." from A Return To Love: by Marianne Williamson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 8, 2006 Report Share Posted June 8, 2006 Dear Uttara, //Wendy, you referenced Doris Chase Doane books for LMT in 1887 vs Meridian Standard Time and I have no doubt about its author''s authenticity or yours. But,// The "Time Changes" books have been standard reference since 1971... //Please don't get confused and double check to make sure your computer software program is not automatically putting in +2.00 (Daylight Summer Time) giving a 23* Virgo ASC or 0.83, which is also incorrect and will give a 7* Libra - Swati/Ra// I have no doubt whatsoever that the latest PL software is capable of recognising the correct time zone for any place and year. I'm therefore quite comfortable just to enter the time of birth recorded on birth certificate (as per local time) along with the date/place of birth and trust the software to calculate correctly. I recommend people invest in the latest software in order to avoid any doubts regarding local time etc.. Best Wishes, Mrs. Wendy http://JyotishVidya.com ______________________________ - "Uttara" <muttaraphalguni > <jyotish-vidya> Wednesday, June 07, 2006 11:25 PM Padre Pio and Timing Dear Krishna, Wendy, Balaji, Rui, Patrice and All Learned Members, I have been reading all the posts with great interest concerning the timing issue regarding Padre Pio's natal chart. Since it was I who made the mistake in the first post with a Virgo ASC I have to admit that I have not been comfortable with the placement of the Asc since then. At first, I couldn't quite put my finger on it, but it was obviously apparent that Virgo ASC just didn't support the Padre's life events. Then the degree issue of Libra and its nakshatra star lord differing from Chitra to Swati etc.. Wendy, you referenced Doris Chase Doane books for LMT in 1887 vs Meridian Standard Time and I have no doubt about its author''s authenticity or yours. But, something seemed off and there seem to be still a question about Time Zones. Because my doubt was driving me crazy, I took the matter into further research. . Especially, when we have been noticing more and more lately with older charts and foreign ones too that Time and Time Zones can be different than what is in reality. So for my own sanity and knowledge, I have taken several hours to research and in fact scoured the Internet for more information and have poured over my ancient maps, atlases and almanacs to see if there was something to the Timing issue. Especially, since Astrodatabank reported a correction of using LMT instead of GMT. I think I have come to a reasonable compromise that might just be agreeable for everyone. If you bear with me, I have outlined it in the following. First of all, I have noticed with the Vedic software programs I have and that others use, that there can be a wide difference (or even a small difference) in the calculations used for casting a natal chart. Sometimes the degrees of Asc can be slightly off or greatly off, placing the Asc in another house completely. Not to mention disturbing the placement or Nakshatra lords of other planets. I have found though, that the updated and newer Vedic software have (or at least the reputable ones) the most recent mathematical computations from the Jet pulpulsion Laboratory that NASA relies on. The atomic clock used for Universal Time at 180* meridian Standard is not only used by NASA but by other agencies to keep time. It has been installed and kept updated in a few new or updated Vedic software for the constant changing of the meridian change of rotation and leap seconds each year. The sidereal ephemeris used by Betz and the Swiss ephemeris are two that I favor. Even so, not to take anything at true face value when there is doubt, I find for me that cross referencing and researching the matter to be objective to my understanding and comfort level. The most baffling of researches was not to find anything that supported the 1893 passage and acceptance of the Standard Meridian Time. I couldn't find a thing! Not one thing. Yikes. However, this is what I did find. 1840 was the first year that used a Naval Standard Meridian Time for shipping. Then the railroads. 1880 the British Empire was the first to implement a Standard Meridian for daily use across all matters. 1883 a proposal was made by the United States to use a Meridian Standard Time for not only railroads, shipping, daily use for all ,but also to create 24 Time Zones worldwide for business and communication. 1884 at the International Meridian Conference this was enacted world wide. Also, I found that in reality there were small segments of countries or countries that did not recognize the legal GMT right a way. It was not until 1929 that all countries and regions worldwide accepted the legal use of GMT. So, in the meantime, since 1884, clocks were made for those countries or regions who did not accept GMT and wanted to keep LMT, to have two second hands on the face of their clocks. One was for GMT and the other for LMT. I also found that in some countries and regions the difference between LMT and GMT was great. However, like in the small city of Pietrilcina, Italy it was a very small difference. LMT is noted correctly being 0:59 East if one were to calculate using Betz or Swiss ephemeris. 0:54 East if using another calculation for ephemeris. This small difference creates a difference of two degrees in the Libra Asc which changes the Nakshatra star Lord from 5* Chitra/Ma to 7* Swati/Rahu However, GMT was legally in effect for Pietrilcina, Italy since 1884 ,thereby making its GMT Standard Time +1:00:00 (CET)East of GMT. CET means Central Europe Time. CEDT means Central Europe Daylight Time, which was not enacted until 1918. Here is the good news. Because the difference in LMT and GMT is so slight, if one were to put into the software computer the standard time of GMT +1.00 East it is almost the same accept for a few second movements as if one were putting in the LMT used by the Swiss or Betz ephemeris. Please don't get confused and double check to make sure your computer software program is not automatically putting in +2.00 (Daylight Summer Time) giving a 23* Virgo ASC or 0.83, which is also incorrect and will give a 7* Libra - Swati/Ra I have included below a few links for further reading for those interested and I would also like to note that in the Links Table of the Jyotish-Vidya forum there are two folders that comprehensively cover the subjects of World Time Zone, History of Time, Meridian Standard Time, Universal Time and Daylight Savings Time across the globe; not to forget GMT vs LMT. Here I humbly put forward what I think is acceptable for the Timing of the Padre's Natal chart. Padre Pio 25 May 1887 16:10 (1:00:00 CET) East of GMT 14 E 51' 00 - 41 N 12' 00' Pietrilcina, Italy Wednesday Sun Rise: 04:39:13 Full Moon: May 22nd (CET) means Central Standard European Time - no daylight savings. Nearest Town: Benevento, Italy (Southern Italy) Lahiri: ASC 5* Libra 26' 30.98" Chitra/Mars Vimshottari Dasa: Ra Me Ra Sa Navamsa Lagna: Scorpio with Jupiter Death: 23 Sept 1968 02:30 CET 26* Cancer - Ashlesha/Me or CEDT (daylight Savings) 15*Cancer - Pushya/Sa Dasa: Ve Sa Ke Mo The only thing I couldn't change or compromise on was the Nakshatra star lord from Chitra/Ma to Swati/Ra. But, I feel the Chitra/Ma works well and reinforces the 6/8 house position from the Asc Libra/Ve to Taurus/Ve with conjunct Ma 4* (star lord Su) and wide orb combust Sun 11* (star lord Mo) and Mercury 9* (star lord Su). Also, Mars 4* (star lord Su) aspects 4th house Leo/Su with Rahu 0*(star lord Ketu). Also Taurus/Ve is 12th and 2nd from Gemini/Me with Mo 13* (star lord Ra), Ve 21* (star lord Ju) and Sa 27* (star Lord Ju). Ju (rt.) 4* Libra (star lord Ma) is ruler of third house of communication and natural ninth hse of spiritual, teaching, Dharma Sag. and 6th hse of health and enimity and natural 12th hse of loss and renunciation Pisces. etc. A few References are below. I hope my findings are helpful and plausible to everyone. Comments anyone? As Always, Uttara www.timeanddate.com (CET) http://www.btinternet.com~philipr/timeline.htm "Navies in Transition" http://www.ciolek.com/PAPERS/GLOBAL/1800.html "Global Networking: a Timeline 1800 - 1899" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_Euopean_Time http://www.fallingrain.com/world/IT/0/Pietrelcina.html http://physics.nist.gov/GenInt/Time/biblio.html Ä Walk through Time" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Meridian_Conference www.greenwichmeantime.com Ïtaly" "Central European time" "Europe Summer time" Jyotish-Vidya forum - Links Table (two foldeers) "Lord, make me an instrument of Your peace. Where there is hatred, let me sow love, where there is injury, pardon; where there is doubt, faith; where there is despair, hope; where there is darkness, light; and where there is sadness joy. O, Divine Master, grant that I may not so much seek to be consoled as to console; to be understood as to understand; to be loved as to love; for it is in giving that we receive; it is in pardoning that we are pardoned; it is in dying that we are born to eternal life." St. Francis "Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate, our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness, that most frightens us. There is nothing enlightened about shrinking so that other people won't feel insecure around you...As we let our own light shine, we unconsciously give other people permission to do the same. As we are liberated from our own fear, our presence automatically liberates others." from A Return To Love: by Marianne Williamson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 8, 2006 Report Share Posted June 8, 2006 Dear Uttara, //Wendy, you referenced Doris Chase Doane books for LMT in 1887 vs Meridian Standard Time and I have no doubt about its author''s authenticity or yours. But,// BTW it's not a matter of LMT (versus) Meridian Standard Time. The simple fact of the matter is that S.T. Meridian 15E00 was not adopted (in Italy) until 1893. Until then Local Mean Time, applicable to the region, i.e. Italian Peninsula, Sardinia and Sicily was in use. However most reputable (up-to-date) software will calculate this automatically, so we really don't need to worry too much about it. If, as it says on Astrodatabank, that the time recorded on birth certificate was 17:00 then it stands to reason this would be local time. Best Wishes, Mrs. Wendy http://JyotishVidya.com ______________________________ - "Wendy Vasicek" <jyotish (AT) optusnet (DOT) com.au> <jyotish-vidya> Thursday, June 08, 2006 10:30 AM [Norton AntiSpam] Re: Padre Pio and Timing Dear Uttara, //Wendy, you referenced Doris Chase Doane books for LMT in 1887 vs Meridian Standard Time and I have no doubt about its author''s authenticity or yours. But,// The "Time Changes" books have been standard reference since 1971... //Please don't get confused and double check to make sure your computer software program is not automatically putting in +2.00 (Daylight Summer Time) giving a 23* Virgo ASC or 0.83, which is also incorrect and will give a 7* Libra - Swati/Ra// I have no doubt whatsoever that the latest PL software is capable of recognising the correct time zone for any place and year. I'm therefore quite comfortable just to enter the time of birth recorded on birth certificate (as per local time) along with the date/place of birth and trust the software to calculate correctly. I recommend people invest in the latest software in order to avoid any doubts regarding local time etc.. Best Wishes, Mrs. Wendy http://JyotishVidya.com ______________________________ - "Uttara" <muttaraphalguni > <jyotish-vidya> Wednesday, June 07, 2006 11:25 PM Padre Pio and Timing Dear Krishna, Wendy, Balaji, Rui, Patrice and All Learned Members, I have been reading all the posts with great interest concerning the timing issue regarding Padre Pio's natal chart. Since it was I who made the mistake in the first post with a Virgo ASC I have to admit that I have not been comfortable with the placement of the Asc since then. At first, I couldn't quite put my finger on it, but it was obviously apparent that Virgo ASC just didn't support the Padre's life events. Then the degree issue of Libra and its nakshatra star lord differing from Chitra to Swati etc.. Wendy, you referenced Doris Chase Doane books for LMT in 1887 vs Meridian Standard Time and I have no doubt about its author''s authenticity or yours. But, something seemed off and there seem to be still a question about Time Zones. Because my doubt was driving me crazy, I took the matter into further research. . Especially, when we have been noticing more and more lately with older charts and foreign ones too that Time and Time Zones can be different than what is in reality. So for my own sanity and knowledge, I have taken several hours to research and in fact scoured the Internet for more information and have poured over my ancient maps, atlases and almanacs to see if there was something to the Timing issue. Especially, since Astrodatabank reported a correction of using LMT instead of GMT. I think I have come to a reasonable compromise that might just be agreeable for everyone. If you bear with me, I have outlined it in the following. First of all, I have noticed with the Vedic software programs I have and that others use, that there can be a wide difference (or even a small difference) in the calculations used for casting a natal chart. Sometimes the degrees of Asc can be slightly off or greatly off, placing the Asc in another house completely. Not to mention disturbing the placement or Nakshatra lords of other planets. I have found though, that the updated and newer Vedic software have (or at least the reputable ones) the most recent mathematical computations from the Jet pulpulsion Laboratory that NASA relies on. The atomic clock used for Universal Time at 180* meridian Standard is not only used by NASA but by other agencies to keep time. It has been installed and kept updated in a few new or updated Vedic software for the constant changing of the meridian change of rotation and leap seconds each year. The sidereal ephemeris used by Betz and the Swiss ephemeris are two that I favor. Even so, not to take anything at true face value when there is doubt, I find for me that cross referencing and researching the matter to be objective to my understanding and comfort level. The most baffling of researches was not to find anything that supported the 1893 passage and acceptance of the Standard Meridian Time. I couldn't find a thing! Not one thing. Yikes. However, this is what I did find. 1840 was the first year that used a Naval Standard Meridian Time for shipping. Then the railroads. 1880 the British Empire was the first to implement a Standard Meridian for daily use across all matters. 1883 a proposal was made by the United States to use a Meridian Standard Time for not only railroads, shipping, daily use for all ,but also to create 24 Time Zones worldwide for business and communication. 1884 at the International Meridian Conference this was enacted world wide. Also, I found that in reality there were small segments of countries or countries that did not recognize the legal GMT right a way. It was not until 1929 that all countries and regions worldwide accepted the legal use of GMT. So, in the meantime, since 1884, clocks were made for those countries or regions who did not accept GMT and wanted to keep LMT, to have two second hands on the face of their clocks. One was for GMT and the other for LMT. I also found that in some countries and regions the difference between LMT and GMT was great. However, like in the small city of Pietrilcina, Italy it was a very small difference. LMT is noted correctly being 0:59 East if one were to calculate using Betz or Swiss ephemeris. 0:54 East if using another calculation for ephemeris. This small difference creates a difference of two degrees in the Libra Asc which changes the Nakshatra star Lord from 5* Chitra/Ma to 7* Swati/Rahu However, GMT was legally in effect for Pietrilcina, Italy since 1884 ,thereby making its GMT Standard Time +1:00:00 (CET)East of GMT. CET means Central Europe Time. CEDT means Central Europe Daylight Time, which was not enacted until 1918. Here is the good news. Because the difference in LMT and GMT is so slight, if one were to put into the software computer the standard time of GMT +1.00 East it is almost the same accept for a few second movements as if one were putting in the LMT used by the Swiss or Betz ephemeris. Please don't get confused and double check to make sure your computer software program is not automatically putting in +2.00 (Daylight Summer Time) giving a 23* Virgo ASC or 0.83, which is also incorrect and will give a 7* Libra - Swati/Ra I have included below a few links for further reading for those interested and I would also like to note that in the Links Table of the Jyotish-Vidya forum there are two folders that comprehensively cover the subjects of World Time Zone, History of Time, Meridian Standard Time, Universal Time and Daylight Savings Time across the globe; not to forget GMT vs LMT. Here I humbly put forward what I think is acceptable for the Timing of the Padre's Natal chart. Padre Pio 25 May 1887 16:10 (1:00:00 CET) East of GMT 14 E 51' 00 - 41 N 12' 00' Pietrilcina, Italy Wednesday Sun Rise: 04:39:13 Full Moon: May 22nd (CET) means Central Standard European Time - no daylight savings. Nearest Town: Benevento, Italy (Southern Italy) Lahiri: ASC 5* Libra 26' 30.98" Chitra/Mars Vimshottari Dasa: Ra Me Ra Sa Navamsa Lagna: Scorpio with Jupiter Death: 23 Sept 1968 02:30 CET 26* Cancer - Ashlesha/Me or CEDT (daylight Savings) 15*Cancer - Pushya/Sa Dasa: Ve Sa Ke Mo The only thing I couldn't change or compromise on was the Nakshatra star lord from Chitra/Ma to Swati/Ra. But, I feel the Chitra/Ma works well and reinforces the 6/8 house position from the Asc Libra/Ve to Taurus/Ve with conjunct Ma 4* (star lord Su) and wide orb combust Sun 11* (star lord Mo) and Mercury 9* (star lord Su). Also, Mars 4* (star lord Su) aspects 4th house Leo/Su with Rahu 0*(star lord Ketu). Also Taurus/Ve is 12th and 2nd from Gemini/Me with Mo 13* (star lord Ra), Ve 21* (star lord Ju) and Sa 27* (star Lord Ju). Ju (rt.) 4* Libra (star lord Ma) is ruler of third house of communication and natural ninth hse of spiritual, teaching, Dharma Sag. and 6th hse of health and enimity and natural 12th hse of loss and renunciation Pisces. etc. A few References are below. I hope my findings are helpful and plausible to everyone. Comments anyone? As Always, Uttara Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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