Guest guest Posted June 3, 2006 Report Share Posted June 3, 2006 There's an Amma quote out there, which I used in the Introduction part of the local satsang binders when I made them back then, which was about how bhajans are better for the busy mind prior to meditation. It ended something like, "Bhajans, concentration, meditation. Children this is the order". On Swami P's satang tapes, he also teaches this order. VERY GOOD QUESTION about the difference between Chanting the Divine Name and bhajans. It's like Sadhana is "spiritual exercises", but not all Spiritual Exercises are sadhana. Or Dhyaana means "meditation", but not all we think of as a "meditation" is really the state of Dhyaana. Or that all Mahatmas (great souls) are Saints (lead pious lives), but not all Saints are Mahatmas. Sharp discimination is needed to understand these fine differences. Bhajans are Chanting the Divine Name, technically, if you're using Traditional Sanskrit Namavali's(strings of names) common in Amma early days and Sai Baba groups. By bhajans, I mean "SATSANG bhajans", the kind that is sung in lead- and-response format. For effective satsang ('group' sadhana), the majority of the bhajans should be in this format. Too many solo or unison bhajans lessens the sadhana's effectiveness. Bhajans are more effective for several reasons: Format: 2x each line first, slow. Then 1x faster, ending in unison slowly the first line. Reason: Workout for your muscle of Concentration, but also a type of Hypnotic Induction, getting you to a deeper state of consciousness. Diversity: Singing different songs, of different names, rhythms, etc. is better at capturing the busy mind (ie. You've just gotten off work and winding down from a drive through traffic. Trying to meditate then won't be as effective as at the end of satsang/bhajans. Kirtan style singing (I mean Krishna Das style, style of ISKCON also) doesn't have the change in speed, and very much lends itself to the Bhakti Yoga "trap" of Emotionalism and Self-Indulgence. For example, I was very disappointed recently when I got volume 6 of the Santa Fe bhajans. All of them were of the solo format, with none in the satsang-bhajan format. The other volumes I have are 1-4 do have some solo bhajans, but many are satsang bhajans. Even the classic Come Children song on Vol. 6 was done in a way typical of a "re-mix version". Perhaps it was done to shorten the song, but it makes the album appear very self-indulgent rather than a combination of seva/offering. Too many songs in the Kirtan style are not Rajasic enough to catch your attention. Bhajans should either engage a very Rajasic (restless) state, or somewhat wake-up a Tamasic person, all leading to Sattva (ie, true satsang). Many people new to the real concept of Bhakti bhajans, tend to lean towards the more "emotional" songs (slow, ballad style like with contemporary/rock music) thinking it's more Devotional than a faster one. In reality, it comes down to how much your mind is absorbed in the singing than any show of emotion. I've been working to put my ideas of good bhajan-satsang and sadhana into what I've tentatively called "The Super Satsang Format of the Bhakti Yoga Gym". The Bhakti Yoga Gym would be the name of the non- denominational satsang group I'd like to form, with the name reminding people of the approach one should take, and the benefits you'll get from active participation. I'll post a link to the website once it's done, if I ever get it done. I'm kinda wondering if anyone reads long posts, since I tend to get turned off by them. later, tom Ammachi, "ecjensen_us" <ecjensen_us> wrote: > > Tom, how does Amma advise to use bhajans? and when you say bhajans > is that different from chanting the Divine Name, ie. JAI JAI MA or > KALI over and over in more of a kirtan style? thanks for your time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 3, 2006 Report Share Posted June 3, 2006 Hi Tom, I enjoyed this post the most of all your posts. My main experience of satsang was the years I spent with Shree Maa and Swami Satyanandaji at the Devi Mandir in California (1993-2001). Shree Maa always led the bhajans. For a brief period there was some experimentation with jazz instruments and original compositions. Once she called out in a loud voice "No more rock and roll!" That was the end of the free-style satsangs! I have gone to a few Amma satsangs, a few Amma fundraisers, a few public performances, hung out with Bhagwan Das. What I found disturbing was that it seemed that the individuals involved were showing off both their musical skill and the fact they had learned the bhajans in India. It was a huge ego trip. I found it hard to sense the devotion and humility that I found at the Devi Mandir. Except for the strong devotion of Surya and Prakashi and the beautiful relationship they have with their daughters. May we all grow in devotion and humility and spread the Love wherever we may be, Pahari Maa On Jun 3, 2006, at 9:26 AM, Tom wrote: > There's an Amma quote out there, which I used in the Introduction > part of the local satsang binders when I made them back then, which > was about how bhajans are better for the busy mind prior to > meditation. It ended something like, "Bhajans, concentration, > meditation. Children this is the order". On Swami P's satang tapes, > he also teaches this order. > > VERY GOOD QUESTION about the difference between Chanting the Divine > Name and bhajans.  It's like Sadhana is "spiritual exercises", but > not all Spiritual Exercises are sadhana. Or Dhyaana > means "meditation", but not all we think of as a "meditation" is > really the state of Dhyaana. Or that all Mahatmas (great souls) are > Saints (lead pious lives), but not all Saints are Mahatmas.  Sharp > discimination is needed to understand these fine differences. > > Bhajans are Chanting the Divine Name, technically, if you're using > Traditional Sanskrit Namavali's(strings of names) common in Amma > early days and Sai Baba groups. > > By bhajans, I mean "SATSANG bhajans", the kind that is sung in lead- > and-response format.  For effective satsang ('group' sadhana), the > majority of the bhajans should be in this format.  Too many solo or > unison bhajans lessens the sadhana's effectiveness.  Bhajans are > more effective for several reasons:  > > Format:  2x each line first, slow.  Then 1x faster, ending in > unison slowly the first line.   Reason: Workout for your muscle of > Concentration, but also a type of Hypnotic Induction, getting you to > a deeper state of consciousness. > > Diversity: Singing different songs, of different names, rhythms, > etc. is better at capturing the busy mind (ie. You've just gotten off > work and winding down from a drive through traffic.  Trying to > meditate then won't be as effective as at the end of satsang/bhajans. > > Kirtan style singing (I mean Krishna Das style, style of ISKCON also) > doesn't have the change in speed, and very much lends itself to the > Bhakti Yoga "trap" of Emotionalism and Self-Indulgence..  For > example, I was very disappointed recently when I got volume 6 of the > Santa Fe bhajans.  All of them were of the solo format, with none in > the satsang-bhajan format.  The other volumes I have are 1-4 do have > some solo bhajans, but many are satsang bhajans.  Even the classic > Come Children song on Vol. 6 was done in a way typical of a "re-mix > version".   Perhaps it was done to shorten the song, but it makes > the album appear very self-indulgent rather than a combination of > seva/offering. > > Too many songs in the Kirtan style are not Rajasic enough to catch > your attention.  Bhajans should either engage a very Rajasic > (restless) state, or somewhat wake-up a Tamasic person, all leading > to Sattva (ie, true satsang). > > Many people new to the real concept of Bhakti bhajans, tend to lean > towards the more "emotional" songs (slow, ballad style like with > contemporary/rock music) thinking it's more Devotional than a faster > one. In reality, it comes down to how much your mind is absorbed in > the singing than any show of emotion. > > I've been working to put my ideas of good bhajan-satsang and sadhana > into what I've tentatively called "The Super Satsang Format of the > Bhakti Yoga Gym".  The Bhakti Yoga Gym would be the name of the non- > denominational satsang group I'd like to form, with the name > reminding people of the approach one should take, and the benefits > you'll get from active participation.  I'll post a link to the > website once it's done, if I ever get it done.  I'm kinda wondering > if anyone reads long posts, since I tend to get turned off by them. > > later, > tom > > > Ammachi, "ecjensen_us" <ecjensen_us> wrote: > > > > Tom, how does Amma advise to use bhajans? and when you say bhajans > > is that different from chanting the Divine Name, ie. JAI JAI MA or > > KALI over and over in more of a kirtan style? thanks for your > time. > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 3, 2006 Report Share Posted June 3, 2006 Showing off... interesting choice of words since the PERFORMANCE of music, singing, dancing, seems to involve by its very action the principle of putting on some kind of show or demonstrating one's devotion through the art of celestial harmony. What comes to mind as an alternative interpretation is what my auntie-nuns used to tell me about singing hymns. Growing up Catholic in the age I did, we didn't have the same "sung" Masses or the community pressure on the priests to incant their versing with angelic qualities. But singing, I was always reminded, was like a direct line to God's ears. So there remains for me a very cosmic quality to the opportunity to raise one's voice in song. "May it be pleasing to God." If you sing beautifully, it is usually such a blessing to engage in that act that the joy which overcomes you perhaps could be misinterpreted by someone who does not have the same gift and who might be a bit jealous. But you have to dance like noone's watching, sing like you're alone in the shower, and let the outsiders with judgment say what they will. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 3, 2006 Report Share Posted June 3, 2006 I must say that this is way, way off as far as I am concerned and in my experience. - Tom Ammachi Saturday, June 03, 2006 9:26 AM Re: Bhajans vs. Chanting the Divine Name There's an Amma quote out there, which I used in the Introduction part of the local satsang binders when I made them back then, which was about how bhajans are better for the busy mind prior to meditation. It ended something like, "Bhajans, concentration, meditation. Children this is the order". On Swami P's satang tapes, he also teaches this order. VERY GOOD QUESTION about the difference between Chanting the Divine Name and bhajans. It's like Sadhana is "spiritual exercises", but not all Spiritual Exercises are sadhana. Or Dhyaana means "meditation", but not all we think of as a "meditation" is really the state of Dhyaana. Or that all Mahatmas (great souls) are Saints (lead pious lives), but not all Saints are Mahatmas. Sharp discimination is needed to understand these fine differences. Bhajans are Chanting the Divine Name, technically, if you're using Traditional Sanskrit Namavali's(strings of names) common in Amma early days and Sai Baba groups. By bhajans, I mean "SATSANG bhajans", the kind that is sung in lead- and-response format. For effective satsang ('group' sadhana), the majority of the bhajans should be in this format. Too many solo or unison bhajans lessens the sadhana's effectiveness. Bhajans are more effective for several reasons: Format: 2x each line first, slow. Then 1x faster, ending in unison slowly the first line. Reason: Workout for your muscle of Concentration, but also a type of Hypnotic Induction, getting you to a deeper state of consciousness. Diversity: Singing different songs, of different names, rhythms, etc. is better at capturing the busy mind (ie. You've just gotten off work and winding down from a drive through traffic. Trying to meditate then won't be as effective as at the end of satsang/bhajans. Kirtan style singing (I mean Krishna Das style, style of ISKCON also) doesn't have the change in speed, and very much lends itself to the Bhakti Yoga "trap" of Emotionalism and Self-Indulgence. For example, I was very disappointed recently when I got volume 6 of the Santa Fe bhajans. All of them were of the solo format, with none in the satsang-bhajan format. The other volumes I have are 1-4 do have some solo bhajans, but many are satsang bhajans. Even the classic Come Children song on Vol. 6 was done in a way typical of a "re-mix version". Perhaps it was done to shorten the song, but it makes the album appear very self-indulgent rather than a combination of seva/offering. Too many songs in the Kirtan style are not Rajasic enough to catch your attention. Bhajans should either engage a very Rajasic (restless) state, or somewhat wake-up a Tamasic person, all leading to Sattva (ie, true satsang). Many people new to the real concept of Bhakti bhajans, tend to lean towards the more "emotional" songs (slow, ballad style like with contemporary/rock music) thinking it's more Devotional than a faster one. In reality, it comes down to how much your mind is absorbed in the singing than any show of emotion. I've been working to put my ideas of good bhajan-satsang and sadhana into what I've tentatively called "The Super Satsang Format of the Bhakti Yoga Gym". The Bhakti Yoga Gym would be the name of the non- denominational satsang group I'd like to form, with the name reminding people of the approach one should take, and the benefits you'll get from active participation. I'll post a link to the website once it's done, if I ever get it done. I'm kinda wondering if anyone reads long posts, since I tend to get turned off by them. later, tom Ammachi, "ecjensen_us" <ecjensen_us> wrote: > > Tom, how does Amma advise to use bhajans? and when you say bhajans > is that different from chanting the Divine Name, ie. JAI JAI MA or > KALI over and over in more of a kirtan style? thanks for your time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 3, 2006 Report Share Posted June 3, 2006 I disagree wholeheartedly with your interpretation. True Satsang and all it contains arises from a place of devotion, unconditional love and selflessness (non-egoity). Performance is ego based. It interests me that you come to the conclusion that someone who disagrees with you is "misinterpreting" the performance, does not have the same gift and might be a bit jealous. The satsangs about which I wrote were in the hands of the professional bhajan singers. They had learned specific and complex styles. The simple devotee who wanted to participate, even if they were gifted, did not feel an opening to share. On the other hand, Shree Maa, a master musician, always encouraged everyone to learn and participate. Her devotion, and that of her disciples and devotees, was evident at every satsang. It was never a "performance". It was centered in the Self. Pahari Maa On Jun 3, 2006, at 12:56 PM, Prashanti wrote: > Showing off... interesting choice of words since the PERFORMANCE of > music, > singing, dancing, seems to involve by its very action the principle of > putting on some kind of show or demonstrating one's devotion through > the art > of celestial harmony. > > What comes to mind as an alternative interpretation is what my > auntie-nuns > used to tell me about singing hymns. Growing up Catholic in the age > I did, > we didn't have the same "sung" Masses or the community pressure on the > priests to incant their versing with angelic qualities. But singing, > I was > always reminded, was like a direct line to God's ears. So there > remains for > me a very cosmic quality to the opportunity to raise one's voice in > song. > "May it be pleasing to God." > > If you sing beautifully, it is usually such a blessing to engage in > that act > that the joy which overcomes you perhaps could be misinterpreted by > someone > who does not have the same gift and who might be a bit jealous. But > you have > to dance like noone's watching, sing like you're alone in the shower, > and > let the outsiders with judgment say what they will. > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 3, 2006 Report Share Posted June 3, 2006 Pahaari Maa, Amma's group's bhajans are usually a mixture of simple repeated names and more complex bhajans (both musically and in their words), and whether Amma is leading them or not, I have found this mix. Why do you come to the conclusion that the singers who sing complex bhajans are showing off? That might be the case sometimes, but there are many who like to sing and listen to complex bhajans, and they are also 'simple devotees'. But in any case, for those with the vasana to show off their singing, the Ashram setting is a nice opportunity, instead of playing air guitar in front of their mirrors in their bedrooms. I have tried to show off during bhajans (and I am only an average singer), and Amma (and other satsang people) have been so sweet to me, treating me like a child showing off its talents to its mother. Their attitude by itself reduces my ego. Nandu Ammachi, Ardis Jackson <ardis1> wrote: > > I disagree wholeheartedly with your interpretation. True Satsang and > all it contains arises from a place of devotion, unconditional love and > selflessness (non-egoity). Performance is ego based. It interests me > that you come to the conclusion that someone who disagrees with you is > "misinterpreting" the performance, does not have the same gift and > might be a bit jealous. The satsangs about which I wrote were in the > hands of the professional bhajan singers. They had learned specific > and complex styles. The simple devotee who wanted to participate, even > if they were gifted, did not feel an opening to share. On the other > hand, Shree Maa, a master musician, always encouraged everyone to learn > and participate. Her devotion, and that of her disciples and devotees, > was evident at every satsang. It was never a "performance". It was > centered in the Self. > > Pahari Maa > > > On Jun 3, 2006, at 12:56 PM, Prashanti wrote: > > > Showing off... interesting choice of words since the PERFORMANCE of > > music, > > singing, dancing, seems to involve by its very action the principle of > > putting on some kind of show or demonstrating one's devotion through > > the art > > of celestial harmony. > > > > What comes to mind as an alternative interpretation is what my > > auntie-nuns > > used to tell me about singing hymns. Growing up Catholic in the age > > I did, > > we didn't have the same "sung" Masses or the community pressure on the > > priests to incant their versing with angelic qualities. But singing, > > I was > > always reminded, was like a direct line to God's ears. So there > > remains for > > me a very cosmic quality to the opportunity to raise one's voice in > > song. > > "May it be pleasing to God." > > > > If you sing beautifully, it is usually such a blessing to engage in > > that act > > that the joy which overcomes you perhaps could be misinterpreted by > > someone > > who does not have the same gift and who might be a bit jealous. But > > you have > > to dance like noone's watching, sing like you're alone in the shower, > > and > > let the outsiders with judgment say what they will. > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 3, 2006 Report Share Posted June 3, 2006 Why choose to judge? Just choose to enjoy. What may look like showing off to one person will look like that person is just really getting into the bhav to another. Some people use singing as a sadhana and even have classical training, so it is natural for them to attempt more complex bhajans. This has always been a part of Indian culture. - vallathnkumar Ammachi Saturday, June 03, 2006 3:16 PM Re: Bhajans vs. Chanting the Divine Name Pahaari Maa, Amma's group's bhajans are usually a mixture of simple repeated names and more complex bhajans (both musically and in their words), and whether Amma is leading them or not, I have found this mix. Why do you come to the conclusion that the singers who sing complex bhajans are showing off? That might be the case sometimes, but there are many who like to sing and listen to complex bhajans, and they are also 'simple devotees'. But in any case, for those with the vasana to show off their singing, the Ashram setting is a nice opportunity, instead of playing air guitar in front of their mirrors in their bedrooms. I have tried to show off during bhajans (and I am only an average singer), and Amma (and other satsang people) have been so sweet to me, treating me like a child showing off its talents to its mother. Their attitude by itself reduces my ego. Nandu Ammachi, Ardis Jackson <ardis1> wrote: > > I disagree wholeheartedly with your interpretation. True Satsang and > all it contains arises from a place of devotion, unconditional love and > selflessness (non-egoity). Performance is ego based. It interests me > that you come to the conclusion that someone who disagrees with you is > "misinterpreting" the performance, does not have the same gift and > might be a bit jealous. The satsangs about which I wrote were in the > hands of the professional bhajan singers. They had learned specific > and complex styles. The simple devotee who wanted to participate, even > if they were gifted, did not feel an opening to share. On the other > hand, Shree Maa, a master musician, always encouraged everyone to learn > and participate. Her devotion, and that of her disciples and devotees, > was evident at every satsang. It was never a "performance". It was > centered in the Self. > > Pahari Maa > > > On Jun 3, 2006, at 12:56 PM, Prashanti wrote: > > > Showing off... interesting choice of words since the PERFORMANCE of > > music, > > singing, dancing, seems to involve by its very action the principle of > > putting on some kind of show or demonstrating one's devotion through > > the art > > of celestial harmony. > > > > What comes to mind as an alternative interpretation is what my > > auntie-nuns > > used to tell me about singing hymns. Growing up Catholic in the age > > I did, > > we didn't have the same "sung" Masses or the community pressure on the > > priests to incant their versing with angelic qualities. But singing, > > I was > > always reminded, was like a direct line to God's ears. So there > > remains for > > me a very cosmic quality to the opportunity to raise one's voice in > > song. > > "May it be pleasing to God." > > > > If you sing beautifully, it is usually such a blessing to engage in > > that act > > that the joy which overcomes you perhaps could be misinterpreted by > > someone > > who does not have the same gift and who might be a bit jealous. But > > you have > > to dance like noone's watching, sing like you're alone in the shower, > > and > > let the outsiders with judgment say what they will. > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 3, 2006 Report Share Posted June 3, 2006 That is very sweet. On Jun 3, 2006, at 3:16 PM, vallathnkumar wrote: > Pahaari Maa, > Amma's group's bhajans are usually a mixture of simple repeated names > and more complex bhajans (both musically and in their words), and > whether Amma is leading them or not, I have found this mix. Why do > you come to the conclusion that the singers who sing complex bhajans > are showing off? That might be the case sometimes, but there are many > who like to sing and listen to complex bhajans, and they are also > 'simple devotees'. > > But in any case, for those with the vasana to show off their singing, > the Ashram setting is a nice opportunity, instead of playing air > guitar in front of their mirrors in their bedrooms. > > I have tried to show off during bhajans (and I am only an average > singer), and Amma (and other satsang people) have been so sweet to me, > treating me like a child showing off its talents to its mother. Their > attitude by itself reduces my ego. > > Nandu > > Ammachi, Ardis Jackson <ardis1> wrote: > > > > I disagree wholeheartedly with your interpretation. True Satsang > and > > all it contains arises from a place of devotion, unconditional love > and > > selflessness (non-egoity). Performance is ego based. It interests > me > > that you come to the conclusion that someone who disagrees with you > is > > "misinterpreting" the performance, does not have the same gift and > > might be a bit jealous. The satsangs about which I wrote were in > the > > hands of the professional bhajan singers. They had learned specific > > and complex styles. The simple devotee who wanted to participate, > even > > if they were gifted, did not feel an opening to share. On the other > > hand, Shree Maa, a master musician, always encouraged everyone to > learn > > and participate. Her devotion, and that of her disciples and > devotees, > > was evident at every satsang. It was never a "performance". It was > > centered in the Self. > > > > Pahari Maa > > > > > > On Jun 3, 2006, at 12:56 PM, Prashanti wrote: > > > > > Showing off... interesting choice of words since the PERFORMANCE > of > > > music, > > > singing, dancing, seems to involve by its very action the > principle of > > > putting on some kind of show or demonstrating one's devotion > through > > > the art > > > of celestial harmony. > > > > > > What comes to mind as an alternative interpretation is what my > > > auntie-nuns > > > used to tell me about singing hymns. Growing up Catholic in the > age > > > I did, > > > we didn't have the same "sung" Masses or the community pressure > on the > > > priests to incant their versing with angelic qualities. But > singing, > > > I was > > > always reminded, was like a direct line to God's ears. So there > > > remains for > > > me a very cosmic quality to the opportunity to raise one's voice > in > > > song. > > > "May it be pleasing to God." > > > > > > If you sing beautifully, it is usually such a blessing to engage > in > > > that act > > > that the joy which overcomes you perhaps could be misinterpreted > by > > > someone > > > who does not have the same gift and who might be a bit jealous. > But > > > you have > > > to dance like noone's watching, sing like you're alone in the > shower, > > > and > > > let the outsiders with judgment say what they will. > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 4, 2006 Report Share Posted June 4, 2006 A really talented and devotional singer can transport a room of people into deep states. There is nothing quite like it. At MA Center in San Ramon, I have missed Thaila's gorgeous singing but then, there are others. I am always glad to hear this one young desi man (also a drummer) who always manages to convey such profound beauty through his singing. Exquisite technique is not everything, and some not so talented singers may open your heart through their bhakti. Then again others may be no less ego-invested than the good singers. Can't generalize... Max >Why choose to judge? Just choose to enjoy. What may look like >showing off to one person will look like that person is just really >getting into the bhav to another. Some people use singing as a >sadhana and even have classical training, so it is natural for them >to attempt more complex bhajans. This has always been a part of >Indian culture. -- Max Dashu Art in Goddess Reverence http://www.maxdashu.net Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 4, 2006 Report Share Posted June 4, 2006 If we're lucky, at some point in the singing of the Divine, "we" become lost in it and thus much closer to the One we are singing to. Doesn't matter what (bhajans, kirtan, hymns) we are singing. vallathnkumar wrote: > Pahaari Maa, > Amma's group's bhajans are usually a mixture of simple repeated names > and more complex bhajans (both musically and in their words), and > whether Amma is leading them or not, I have found this mix. Why do > you come to the conclusion that the singers who sing complex bhajans > are showing off? That might be the case sometimes, but there are many > who like to sing and listen to complex bhajans, and they are also > 'simple devotees'. > > But in any case, for those with the vasana to show off their singing, > the Ashram setting is a nice opportunity, instead of playing air > guitar in front of their mirrors in their bedrooms. > > I have tried to show off during bhajans (and I am only an average > singer), and Amma (and other satsang people) have been so sweet to me, > treating me like a child showing off its talents to its mother. Their > attitude by itself reduces my ego. > > Nandu > > Ammachi, Ardis Jackson <ardis1 wrote: > > > > I disagree wholeheartedly with your interpretation. True Satsang and > > all it contains arises from a place of devotion, unconditional love and > > selflessness (non-egoity). Performance is ego based. It interests me > > that you come to the conclusion that someone who disagrees with you is > > "misinterpreting" the performance, does not have the same gift and > > might be a bit jealous. The satsangs about which I wrote were in the > > hands of the professional bhajan singers. They had learned specific > > and complex styles. The simple devotee who wanted to participate, even > > if they were gifted, did not feel an opening to share. On the other > > hand, Shree Maa, a master musician, always encouraged everyone to learn > > and participate. Her devotion, and that of her disciples and devotees, > > was evident at every satsang. It was never a "performance". It was > > centered in the Self. > > > > Pahari Maa > > > > > > On Jun 3, 2006, at 12:56 PM, Prashanti wrote: > > > > > Showing off... interesting choice of words since the PERFORMANCE of > > > music, > > > singing, dancing, seems to involve by its very action the > principle of > > > putting on some kind of show or demonstrating one's devotion through > > > the art > > > of celestial harmony. > > > > > > What comes to mind as an alternative interpretation is what my > > > auntie-nuns > > > used to tell me about singing hymns. Growing up Catholic in the > age > > > I did, > > > we didn't have the same "sung" Masses or the community pressure > on the > > > priests to incant their versing with angelic qualities. But > singing, > > > I was > > > always reminded, was like a direct line to God's ears. So there > > > remains for > > > me a very cosmic quality to the opportunity to raise one's voice in > > > song. > > > "May it be pleasing to God." > > > > > > If you sing beautifully, it is usually such a blessing to engage in > > > that act > > > that the joy which overcomes you perhaps could be misinterpreted by > > > someone > > > who does not have the same gift and who might be a bit jealous. But > > > you have > > > to dance like noone's watching, sing like you're alone in the > shower, > > > and > > > let the outsiders with judgment say what they will. > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 4, 2006 Report Share Posted June 4, 2006 Yes! The boy you are thinking of is my good friend Deepu, who was one of the people who came to mind when I was making my post. Jai Maa! Surya - Max Dashu Ammachi Saturday, June 03, 2006 5:03 PM Re: Re: Bhajans vs. Chanting the Divine Name A really talented and devotional singer can transport a room of people into deep states. There is nothing quite like it. At MA Center in San Ramon, I have missed Thaila's gorgeous singing but then, there are others. I am always glad to hear this one young desi man (also a drummer) who always manages to convey such profound beauty through his singing. Exquisite technique is not everything, and some not so talented singers may open your heart through their bhakti. Then again others may be no less ego-invested than the good singers. Can't generalize... Max >Why choose to judge? Just choose to enjoy. What may look like >showing off to one person will look like that person is just really >getting into the bhav to another. Some people use singing as a >sadhana and even have classical training, so it is natural for them >to attempt more complex bhajans. This has always been a part of >Indian culture. -- Max Dashu Art in Goddess Reverence http://www.maxdashu.net Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 4, 2006 Report Share Posted June 4, 2006 Does Shree Maa still insist on her singing solo and others can join in as a priviledge? Her biography stated something like that, and one of the tapes I have is mostly if not all acapella. When I saw her perform locally years ago, it was with a full band though. I'm just mentioning it because the attitude of self-importance of the first thing above isn't a good example, and it never occurred in Ammachi's life, as fas as I know. tom Ammachi, Ardis Jackson <ardis1> wrote: >(snipped) On the other > hand, Shree Maa, a master musician, always encouraged everyone to learn and participate. Her devotion, and that of her disciples and devotees, was evident at every satsang. It was never "performance". It was centered in the Self. > > Pahari Maa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 4, 2006 Report Share Posted June 4, 2006 Really talented singers are usually One-pointed as a result of training. Swami P goes over Amma's teachings on Bhajans on his Volume 5 talks, and how only when your mind is One-pointed (on anything) while singing, does it benefit you, the audience and the atmosphere. All my earlier comments on the technical aspects of bhajans go towards this goal. tom Ammachi, Max Dashu <maxdashu> wrote: > > A really talented and devotional singer can transport a room of > people into deep states. There is nothing quite like it. At MA Center > in San Ramon, I have missed Thaila's gorgeous singing but then, there > are others. I am always glad to hear this one young desi man (also a > drummer) who always manages to convey such profound beauty through > his singing. > > Exquisite technique is not everything, and some not so talented > singers may open your heart through their bhakti. Then again others > may be no less ego-invested than the good singers. Can't generalize... > > Max > > >Why choose to judge? Just choose to enjoy. What may look like > >showing off to one person will look like that person is just really > >getting into the bhav to another. Some people use singing as a > >sadhana and even have classical training, so it is natural for them > >to attempt more complex bhajans. This has always been a part of > >Indian culture. > > -- > Max Dashu > > Art in Goddess Reverence > http://www.maxdashu.net > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 4, 2006 Report Share Posted June 4, 2006 Complex bhajans, or even solo bhajans are BY THEMSELVES NOT HARMFUL, only if too often in a "group" setting. At home by oneself, the Dharma changes, and it really doesn't matter what style you sing, although it's still effective to sing ones with a tempo change for better concentration, along with no distracting breaks. Singing more complex bhajans in a "group" brings about all sorts of problems: assumes your group is familiar and skilled enough to give the song a good run, and encourages the growth of the Subtle ego through such a performance (gotta ask yourself what your true goal is, for some such a performance will be harmful to the path). A mix is good, but too many solo songs or over-embellishments aren't. tom Ammachi, "vallathnkumar" <vallathn> wrote: > > Pahaari Maa, > Amma's group's bhajans are usually a mixture of simple repeated names > and more complex bhajans (both musically and in their words), and > whether Amma is leading them or not, I have found this mix. Why do > you come to the conclusion that the singers who sing complex bhajans > are showing off? That might be the case sometimes, but there are many > who like to sing and listen to complex bhajans, and they are also > 'simple devotees'. > > But in any case, for those with the vasana to show off their singing, > the Ashram setting is a nice opportunity, instead of playing air > guitar in front of their mirrors in their bedrooms. > > I have tried to show off during bhajans (and I am only an average > singer), and Amma (and other satsang people) have been so sweet to me, > treating me like a child showing off its talents to its mother. Their > attitude by itself reduces my ego. > > Nandu Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 4, 2006 Report Share Posted June 4, 2006 Namah sivaya, I can sure agree with this, Prashanti! Since I see my ability to sing as a god gift to me, I enjoy singing . I like to think I am giving my all (as Tom put it) . But really.here we go.Tom, why do you want to judge someone's efforts as 'over-embellishing,' or 'attaching too much emotion' to the singing, or using an 'undisciplined technique'? (I think I am very emotional and it comes through in many aspects of my life). Anyway, if someone is singing to Amma, to God, then that is their gift to Her. Just leave the judgment be. I think I just get tired of all the analysis. We are just trying to do our spiritual practice. > If you sing beautifully, it is usually such a blessing to engage in that act > that the joy which overcomes you perhaps could be misinterpreted by someone > who does not have the same gift and who might be a bit jealous. But you have > to dance like noone's watching, sing like you're alone in the shower, and > let the outsiders with judgment say what they will. Be LOVE, Egyirba "Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." -- Mark Twain Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 4, 2006 Report Share Posted June 4, 2006 Hi Tom, I agree with this view. My concern with complex bhajans had to do with what you mention in your second paragraph. Pahari Maa On Jun 4, 2006, at 10:51 AM, Tom wrote: > Complex bhajans, or even solo bhajans are BY THEMSELVES NOT HARMFUL, > only if too often in a "group" setting.   At home by oneself, the > Dharma changes, and it really doesn't matter what style you sing, > although it's still effective to sing ones with a tempo change for > better concentration, along with no distracting breaks. > > Singing more complex bhajans in a "group" brings about all sorts of > problems:  assumes your group is familiar and skilled enough to give > the song a good run, and encourages the growth of the Subtle ego > through such a performance (gotta ask yourself what your true goal > is, for some such a performance will be harmful to the path). > > A mix is good, but too many solo songs or over-embellishments > aren't.  > tom > > Ammachi, "vallathnkumar" <vallathn> wrote: > > > > Pahaari Maa, > > Amma's group's bhajans are usually a mixture of simple repeated > names > > and more complex bhajans (both musically and in their words), and > > whether Amma is leading them or not, I have found this mix. Why do > > you come to the conclusion that the singers who sing complex bhajans > > are showing off? That might be the case sometimes, but there are > many > > who like to sing and listen to complex bhajans, and they are also > > 'simple devotees'. > > > > But in any case, for those with the vasana to show off their > singing, > > the Ashram setting is a nice opportunity, instead of playing air > > guitar in front of their mirrors in their bedrooms. > > > > I have tried to show off during bhajans (and I am only an average > > singer), and Amma (and other satsang people) have been so sweet to > me, > > treating me like a child showing off its talents to its mother. > Their > > attitude by itself reduces my ego. > > > > Nandu > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 4, 2006 Report Share Posted June 4, 2006 My experience with Shree Maa was at her ashram from 1993-2001. Her home. She was always very humble and encouraged all of us to join her in singing bhajans. It is true that she sang the lead and we sang the response. I never went on tour with them. From the videos I have seen, the satsangs on tour were totally different from the satsangs at home. At home, we were taught to be totally still in proper asan and silent between bhajans. There was no swaying to the beat or dancing. What a shock it was to see the videos from tour when everyone was dancing and clapping! Pahari Maa On Jun 4, 2006, at 10:41 AM, Tom wrote: > Does Shree Maa still insist on her singing solo and others can join in > as a priviledge?  Her biography stated something like that, and one > of > the tapes I have is mostly if not all acapella.  When I saw her > perform locally years ago, it was with a full band though.  > > I'm just mentioning it because the attitude of self-importance of the > first thing above isn't a good example, and it never occurred in > Ammachi's life, as fas as I know. > > tom > > Ammachi, Ardis Jackson <ardis1> wrote: > >(snipped)   On the other > > hand, Shree Maa, a master musician, always encouraged everyone to > learn and participate. Her devotion, and that of her disciples and > devotees, was evident at every satsang. It was never "performance". > It was centered in the Self. > > > > Pahari Maa > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 4, 2006 Report Share Posted June 4, 2006 >Does Shree Maa still insist on her singing solo and others can join in >as a priviledge? Not at all. Consider that there may be a reason other than self-importance, for however it was done when you saw her. As to dancing, I saw a lot of that and joyous devotion generally, when I had the privilege of attending her satsangs. It was quite open and free-flowing. Max -- Max Dashu Suppressed Histories Archives Women in Global Perspective http://www.suppressedhistories.net New poster: Our Reproductive Rights! http://www.maxdashu.net/shamanic/reprorights.html Beautiful, multi-issue, empowering 11 x 17 laser print Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 4, 2006 Report Share Posted June 4, 2006 That was a real change from the early years when she was very strict and there was nothing free-flowing about it. I remember Swamiji begging her to at least add some new songs. She refused. On Jun 4, 2006, at 2:30 PM, Max Dashu wrote: > >Does Shree Maa still insist on her singing solo and others can join > in > >as a priviledge? > > Not at all. > > Consider that there may be a reason other than self-importance, for > however it was done when you saw her. > > As to dancing, I saw a lot of that and joyous devotion generally, > when I had the privilege of attending her satsangs. It was quite open > and free-flowing. > > Max > -- > Max Dashu > Suppressed Histories Archives > Women in Global Perspective > http://www.suppressedhistories.net > > New poster: Our Reproductive Rights! > http://www.maxdashu.net/shamanic/reprorights.html > Beautiful, multi-issue, empowering 11 x 17 laser print > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 5, 2006 Report Share Posted June 5, 2006 Yogananda said: "There is so much confusion in religion on the subject of grace. People think God wants to be pleased, personally, as His condition for answering their prayers. They cast God in their own image, instead of going deep within in meditation to discover how it is that they are made in His image... God doesn't need propitiating! His grace isn't based on personal likes and dislikes. It is true that He responds to the devotee's love, but that love too must be impersonal. It must be free of ego-motivation." The Essence of Self Realization: The Wisdom of Parmhansa Yogananda (Crystal Clarity, 1991), 101. Recorded by Kriyananda (J. Donald Walters). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 5, 2006 Report Share Posted June 5, 2006 Ooh! Great quote! Be LOVE, Egyirba Ammachi [Ammachi] On Behalf Of Prashanti Sunday, June 04, 2006 9:26 PM Ammachi Re: Re: Bhajans vs. Chanting the Divine Name Yogananda said: "There is so much confusion in religion on the subject of grace. People think God wants to be pleased, personally, as His condition for answering their prayers. They cast God in their own image, instead of going deep within in meditation to discover how it is that they are made in His image... God doesn't need propitiating! His grace isn't based on personal likes and dislikes. It is true that He responds to the devotee's love, but that love too must be impersonal. It must be free of ego-motivation." The Essence of Self Realization: The Wisdom of Parmhansa Yogananda (Crystal Clarity, 1991), 101. Recorded by Kriyananda (J. Donald Walters). _____ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 5, 2006 Report Share Posted June 5, 2006 I didn't mean that it was actually Shree Maa's motivation, but that it has the effect of supporting that in others (setting a bad example in person about certain ideals, is something I've found undesirable about Shree Maa, though I'm sure many will disagree). That is, if a mahatma tells their followers that they'll sing when they want to and you can join in as a priviledge, it sends a bad message that we should also act in such a way when we attain such a height. Although I admit, Swami P does mention on his volume 5 in a story about Tansen(sp?) about properness (dharma), that one shouldn't just ask a Mahatma to sing songs. tom Ammachi, Max Dashu <maxdashu> wrote: > > >Does Shree Maa still insist on her singing solo and others can join in > >as a priviledge? > > Not at all. > > Consider that there may be a reason other than self-importance, for > however it was done when you saw her. > > As to dancing, I saw a lot of that and joyous devotion generally, > when I had the privilege of attending her satsangs. It was quite open > and free-flowing. > > Max > -- > Max Dashu > Suppressed Histories Archives > Women in Global Perspective > http://www.suppressedhistories.net > > New poster: Our Reproductive Rights! > http://www.maxdashu.net/shamanic/reprorights.html > Beautiful, multi-issue, empowering 11 x 17 laser print > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 5, 2006 Report Share Posted June 5, 2006 I'm curious if you can disprove the Principles (or Theories) about the techniques I've mentioned? Truth is not limited to one's experience. Some of what is mentioned previously about silence and akhanda, is actually more from the stricter SSB format, which tends to turn-off non-Indians. I'm not picking on you, but I've run into this "my experience/your experience" before, and am amazed at how people go strongly with only that. tom Ammachi, "Mahamuni Das" <mahamuni> wrote: > > I must say that this is way, way off as far as I am concerned and in my experience. > - > Tom > Ammachi > Saturday, June 03, 2006 9:26 AM > Re: Bhajans vs. Chanting the Divine Name > > > There's an Amma quote out there, which I used in the Introduction > part of the local satsang binders when I made them back then, which > was about how bhajans are better for the busy mind prior to > meditation. It ended something like, "Bhajans, concentration, > meditation. Children this is the order". On Swami P's satang tapes, > he also teaches this order. > > VERY GOOD QUESTION about the difference between Chanting the Divine > Name and bhajans. It's like Sadhana is "spiritual exercises", but > not all Spiritual Exercises are sadhana. Or Dhyaana > means "meditation", but not all we think of as a "meditation" is > really the state of Dhyaana. Or that all Mahatmas (great souls) are > Saints (lead pious lives), but not all Saints are Mahatmas. Sharp > discimination is needed to understand these fine differences. > > Bhajans are Chanting the Divine Name, technically, if you're using > Traditional Sanskrit Namavali's(strings of names) common in Amma > early days and Sai Baba groups. > > By bhajans, I mean "SATSANG bhajans", the kind that is sung in lead- > and-response format. For effective satsang ('group' sadhana), the > majority of the bhajans should be in this format. Too many solo or > unison bhajans lessens the sadhana's effectiveness. Bhajans are > more effective for several reasons: > > Format: 2x each line first, slow. Then 1x faster, ending in > unison slowly the first line. Reason: Workout for your muscle of > Concentration, but also a type of Hypnotic Induction, getting you to > a deeper state of consciousness. > > Diversity: Singing different songs, of different names, rhythms, > etc. is better at capturing the busy mind (ie. You've just gotten off > work and winding down from a drive through traffic. Trying to > meditate then won't be as effective as at the end of satsang/bhajans. > > Kirtan style singing (I mean Krishna Das style, style of ISKCON also) > doesn't have the change in speed, and very much lends itself to the > Bhakti Yoga "trap" of Emotionalism and Self-Indulgence. For > example, I was very disappointed recently when I got volume 6 of the > Santa Fe bhajans. All of them were of the solo format, with none in > the satsang-bhajan format. The other volumes I have are 1-4 do have > some solo bhajans, but many are satsang bhajans. Even the classic > Come Children song on Vol. 6 was done in a way typical of a "re- mix > version". Perhaps it was done to shorten the song, but it makes > the album appear very self-indulgent rather than a combination of > seva/offering. > > Too many songs in the Kirtan style are not Rajasic enough to catch > your attention. Bhajans should either engage a very Rajasic > (restless) state, or somewhat wake-up a Tamasic person, all leading > to Sattva (ie, true satsang). > > Many people new to the real concept of Bhakti bhajans, tend to lean > towards the more "emotional" songs (slow, ballad style like with > contemporary/rock music) thinking it's more Devotional than a faster > one. In reality, it comes down to how much your mind is absorbed in > the singing than any show of emotion. > > I've been working to put my ideas of good bhajan-satsang and sadhana > into what I've tentatively called "The Super Satsang Format of the > Bhakti Yoga Gym". The Bhakti Yoga Gym would be the name of the non- > denominational satsang group I'd like to form, with the name > reminding people of the approach one should take, and the benefits > you'll get from active participation. I'll post a link to the > website once it's done, if I ever get it done. I'm kinda wondering > if anyone reads long posts, since I tend to get turned off by them. > > later, > tom > > > Ammachi, "ecjensen_us" <ecjensen_us@> wrote: > > > > Tom, how does Amma advise to use bhajans? and when you say bhajans > > is that different from chanting the Divine Name, ie. JAI JAI MA or > > KALI over and over in more of a kirtan style? thanks for your > time. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 6, 2006 Report Share Posted June 6, 2006 Hi tom, my preference for bhajan singing happens to also be the SSB style that you mentioned, where everyone gets to sing and the first verse is slow 2x second verse is fast one time. But the way you present you ideas comes across a bit harsh. You may not be noticing how your style could be misconstrued as sort of pushy. In the scriptures, it says that truthful speech must have a consoling effect in order to be considered to be "the truth". Sharp words although they have some factual content are not truthful because they disturb the listener. I find that Tembas emails are an example of satvic posts that open people's hearts, because above and beyond being "right", Temba's prema saturated words come through. Amma bhajans are different, and Amma satsang people may prefer their style. Also, I would think that your ideas of using SSB style bhajans as a business would probably not be in the spirit of those bhajans, which are always free to all. Namah Shivaya, Chris Ammachi, "Tom" <tomgull wrote: > > I'm curious if you can disprove the Principles (or Theories) about > the techniques I've mentioned? Truth is not limited to one's > experience. Some of what is mentioned previously about silence > and akhanda, is actually more from the stricter SSB format, which > tends to turn-off non-Indians. > > I'm not picking on you, but I've run into this "my experience/your > experience" before, and am amazed at how people go strongly with only > that. > > tom > > Ammachi, "Mahamuni Das" <mahamuni@> wrote: > > > > I must say that this is way, way off as far as I am concerned and > in my experience. > > > > - > > Tom > > Ammachi > > Saturday, June 03, 2006 9:26 AM > > Re: Bhajans vs. Chanting the Divine Name > > > > > > There's an Amma quote out there, which I used in the Introduction > > part of the local satsang binders when I made them back then, > which > > was about how bhajans are better for the busy mind prior to > > meditation. It ended something like, "Bhajans, concentration, > > meditation. Children this is the order". On Swami P's satang > tapes, > > he also teaches this order. > > > > VERY GOOD QUESTION about the difference between Chanting the > Divine > > Name and bhajans. It's like Sadhana is "spiritual exercises", > but > > not all Spiritual Exercises are sadhana. Or Dhyaana > > means "meditation", but not all we think of as a "meditation" is > > really the state of Dhyaana. Or that all Mahatmas (great souls) > are > > Saints (lead pious lives), but not all Saints are Mahatmas. > Sharp > > discimination is needed to understand these fine differences. > > > > Bhajans are Chanting the Divine Name, technically, if you're > using > > Traditional Sanskrit Namavali's(strings of names) common in Amma > > early days and Sai Baba groups. > > > > By bhajans, I mean "SATSANG bhajans", the kind that is sung in > lead- > > and-response format. For effective satsang ('group' sadhana), > the > > majority of the bhajans should be in this format. Too many solo > or > > unison bhajans lessens the sadhana's effectiveness. Bhajans are > > more effective for several reasons: > > > > Format: 2x each line first, slow. Then 1x faster, ending in > > unison slowly the first line. Reason: Workout for your muscle > of > > Concentration, but also a type of Hypnotic Induction, getting you > to > > a deeper state of consciousness. > > > > Diversity: Singing different songs, of different names, rhythms, > > etc. is better at capturing the busy mind (ie. You've just gotten > off > > work and winding down from a drive through traffic. Trying to > > meditate then won't be as effective as at the end of > satsang/bhajans. > > > > Kirtan style singing (I mean Krishna Das style, style of ISKCON > also) > > doesn't have the change in speed, and very much lends itself to > the > > Bhakti Yoga "trap" of Emotionalism and Self-Indulgence. For > > example, I was very disappointed recently when I got volume 6 of > the > > Santa Fe bhajans. All of them were of the solo format, with > none in > > the satsang-bhajan format. The other volumes I have are 1-4 do > have > > some solo bhajans, but many are satsang bhajans. Even the > classic > > Come Children song on Vol. 6 was done in a way typical of a "re- > mix > > version". Perhaps it was done to shorten the song, but it > makes > > the album appear very self-indulgent rather than a combination of > > seva/offering. > > > > Too many songs in the Kirtan style are not Rajasic enough to > catch > > your attention. Bhajans should either engage a very Rajasic > > (restless) state, or somewhat wake-up a Tamasic person, all > leading > > to Sattva (ie, true satsang). > > > > Many people new to the real concept of Bhakti bhajans, tend to > lean > > towards the more "emotional" songs (slow, ballad style like with > > contemporary/rock music) thinking it's more Devotional than a > faster > > one. In reality, it comes down to how much your mind is absorbed > in > > the singing than any show of emotion. > > > > I've been working to put my ideas of good bhajan-satsang and > sadhana > > into what I've tentatively called "The Super Satsang Format of > the > > Bhakti Yoga Gym". The Bhakti Yoga Gym would be the name of the > non- > > denominational satsang group I'd like to form, with the name > > reminding people of the approach one should take, and the > benefits > > you'll get from active participation. I'll post a link to the > > website once it's done, if I ever get it done. I'm kinda > wondering > > if anyone reads long posts, since I tend to get turned off by > them. > > > > later, > > tom > > > > > > Ammachi, "ecjensen_us" <ecjensen_us@> > wrote: > > > > > > Tom, how does Amma advise to use bhajans? and when you say > bhajans > > > is that different from chanting the Divine Name, ie. JAI JAI MA > or > > > KALI over and over in more of a kirtan style? thanks for your > > time. > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 6, 2006 Report Share Posted June 6, 2006 It's not a business satsang I'd like to start, but an advanced sadhana group. That is, only one meeting per month would be open to the public, but the rest reserved for members who have committed to participating. One of the destructive forces at the ole' SSB Arlington group was that a couple of people had an Evangelical slant (on the sly), although SSB did not teach such missionary behavior. The idea is to do sadhana with a conscious approach, rather than likes/dislikes and experiences. Many times in my life, people who are managers or supervisors fail because they don't use a conscious process, but go off experiences of themselves and others. I'm not sure if I agree about the consoling effect of truth, except the Lasting consoling effect. Certain people will always take my words in a harsh way. It depends on your goal. If I go to a movie, I wouldn't want some film student or critic to be mouthing off about the faults of the movie, I'd just want to enjoy it. But, I wouldn't have to be a film student or critic to notice the faults of a really poorly made film. I tend to trim the fat from my speech, so it'll seem dry and without fluff. Temba's at a very different stage than I, the future will show this in time. tom Ammachi, "ckeniley2003" <ckeniley2003 wrote: > > Hi tom, > > my preference for bhajan singing happens to also be the SSB style > that you mentioned, where everyone gets to sing and the first verse > is slow 2x second verse is fast one time. > > But the way you present you ideas comes across a bit harsh. You may > not be noticing how your style could be misconstrued as sort of > pushy. In the scriptures, it says that truthful speech must have a > consoling effect in order to be considered to be "the truth". Sharp > words although they have some factual content are not truthful > because they disturb the listener. > > I find that Tembas emails are an example of satvic posts that open > people's hearts, because above and beyond being "right", Temba's > prema saturated words come through. > > Amma bhajans are different, and Amma satsang people may prefer their > style. > > Also, I would think that your ideas of using SSB style bhajans as a > business would probably not be in the spirit of those bhajans, which > are always free to all. > > Namah Shivaya, > Chris > > > Ammachi, "Tom" <tomgull@> wrote: > > > > I'm curious if you can disprove the Principles (or Theories) about > > the techniques I've mentioned? Truth is not limited to one's > > experience. Some of what is mentioned previously about silence > > and akhanda, is actually more from the stricter SSB format, which > > tends to turn-off non-Indians. > > > > I'm not picking on you, but I've run into this "my experience/your > > experience" before, and am amazed at how people go strongly with > only > > that. > > > > tom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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