Ox Power as emblem of Hare Krsna's

December 20, 2003

In a message dated 12/19/03 11:21:22 AM Eastern Standard Time,

npetroff (AT) bowdoin (DOT) edu writes:

> BerryBrook Ox Supply store (as far as I know, it's the only store in

> the world devoted specifically to ox power supplies).

If somehow or other rescources were pooled to get Chaya and Balabadra up and

running as a training lodge. i.e. with a building - dormitory - lodge for

guests, students of ox-power, etc. Places like this store and their website

could really get things cookin. eka

December 20, 2003

>

> If somehow

Ah, therein lies the rub.

December 20, 2003

I can't find the "if" reference. However the 4 times more costly thing is a

bit of a problem, isn't it?? Are devotees charging this and more importantly

getting it now??

I am thinking that rethinking the marketing has to be done. A specialty

item. Perhaps not milk, but a milk product? Sweets, it's christmas so I'm

thinking a drink like egg nog. Something that could warrant a higher price.

PLUS

the advertisement as an environmental-animal preservation, "it's a good deed

to buy it" type of thing.

Being a bad devotee, I use jarred spagetti sauce. Paul Newmans cost more,

but it is a better product, plus it is for a non-proft. So even if I am

extremely poor, it is the one I buy. I mean if everyone works as a team, at

least

on one project of marketing, something could take off. Just starting small,

cottage industry, don't even think big for now, just what we are capable of

doing now. Chaya was making preserves etc. THis with the right packaging, ad

campaign, website, offerings to markets could be a start. Plus give devotees

jobs, with devotees. etc. obeisances eka

December 21, 2003

[This message was in HTML format]

>Ekabuddh (AT) aol (DOT) com

>gourdmad (AT) ovnet (DOT) com, npetroff (AT) bowdoin (DOT) edu, d_4h (AT) hotmail (DOT) com

>CC: Cow (AT) pamho (DOT) net

>Re: Ox Power as emblem of Hare Krsna's

>Sat, 20 Dec 2003 11:41:45 EST

>

>I can't find the "if" reference. However the 4 times more costly thing is a

>bit of a problem, isn't it?? Are devotees charging this and more importantly

>getting it now??

>

>I am thinking that rethinking the marketing has to be done. A specialty

>item. Perhaps not milk, but a milk product? Sweets, it's christmas so I'm

>thinking a drink like egg nog. Something that could warrant a higher price.

PLUS

>the advertisement as an environmental-animal preservation, "it's a good deed

>to buy it" type of thing.

>

>Being a bad devotee, I use jarred spagetti sauce. Paul Newmans cost more,

>but it is a better product, plus it is for a non-proft. So even if I am

>extremely poor, it is the one I buy. I mean if everyone works as a team, at

least

>on one project of marketing, something could take off. Just starting small,

>cottage industry, don't even think big for now, just what we are capable of

>doing now. Chaya was making preserves etc. THis with the right packaging, ad

>campaign, website, offerings to markets could be a start. Plus give devotees

>jobs, with devotees. etc. obeisances eka

READ AND LISTEN CAREFULY FROM THE TEACHER.....

***********************************************************************

SO FARMING MEANS-

Lilavati: Srila Prabhupada? We were thinking that unless the African people

can see an example of a devotee, they won't continuously chant. They will

chant while we are there and then they will forget.

Prabhupada: Why don't you become an example yourself?

Lilavati: So to live amongst them, we were thinking, is very important.

Prabhupada: You become an example by your behavior. Example is better than

precept. [break]

Jnana: ...to attain the necessary finances to support the programs here.

Prabhupada: Beg. Sell book. That's all. Otherwise how you get finance?

Jnana: One idea is to have a farm that we sell fruit or vegetables, like

that.

Prabhupada: If you open farm for financial help, then it will not be

successful. You should take to farming for supporting yourself. That's all.

Grow your own food. Grow your own cloth. There is no need of financial help

from outside. You get your food grains sufficiently, rice, dahl, wheat,

vegetables, milk, sugar. Bas You get everything. From these five, six items

you should be economically free. That you have to do, not for trade to get

money. Then it will be failure.

Indian lady (3): Can we purchase the house for our own staying?

Prabhupada: Yes. Because this is necessary. You must have some shelter; you

must eat; you must cover. That is necessary. So you do it. Grow food first

of all to feed yourself sumptuously. You must get strength, and that is

needed. But not for trade. The policy should be that you should be

self-sufficient and save time for advancing in Krsna consciousness. That is

wanted. Yavad-artha prayojanam. Yuktahara-viharasya yogo bhavati siddhi-dah.

You shall eat whatever you require for proper upkeep of the body, not eating

too much and sleeping whole day. Don't do that. Eat only what is absolutely

necessary. Then you'll never be in want. People are engaged in material

civilization means they are increasing the bodily demands, unnecessary. Just

like this park. Why we have come to this park? We like this atmosphere. So

similarly, in villages, everyone, if he has got some land, he can live

simply without any gorgeous building. What is the use? Just have a cottage

and have garden. You'll live very peacefully. But they're constructing big,

big skyscraper building in the downtown, and they will have to come here by

car for some peace of mind, and in the meantime, accident, police. This is

the civilization, nonsense civilization. At weekend they will go to the

village, country, and during the week-time they will work hard. This is

their civilization, with the risk of life, running motor car eighty miles'

speed. Every moment there is risk. What is this civilization? Most ludicrous

civilization. So farming means if you live in a farm... Just like in New

Vrindaban they are doing. Produce your own food, live peacefully, fresh

vegetable, fresh grains, fresh milk, and prepare so many nice milk

preparation, kachori, halava with ghee. Offer to the Deity. Eat

sufficiently. What is the use of going outside? Simple life and chant Hare

Krsna. If you can organize that, that will be very nice.

Jnana: A nice program here.

Prabhupada: Yes. What is this rascal civilization, whole day "Where is

money? Where is money? Where is money? Where is money? Where is money?"

Everyone. Busy means "Where is money? Where is money?" Just like the hog, he

is busy: "What time...? Where is stool? Where is stool? Where is stool?

Where is stool? Where is stool?" That is not civilization. If you remain

always busy, "Where is stool?" like the hog, then what is your civilization?

Whole day working, night, nightshift, dayshift, whole day, the same, like

hog.

Brahmananda: They hold more than one job. They have two jobs.

Prabhupada: Yes. Get money and then drink wine and eat meat and do all

nonsense things. This is their civilization.

Jnana: A farm means also we may engage the people because they are not so...

Prabhupada: First of all be engaged yourself. Then they will see the example

and they'll join. Just like in our New Vrindaban. Other men from other

farms, they are coming, and they are offered this milk preparation, burfi,

sandesa, rasagulla, rabri, so many, halava. They become: "Oh, so many nice

things can be prepared from milk?" They do not know, uncivilized. Cut the

animal and eat. A most crude civilization. When people were not civilized,

they used to do that. Civilization means you know, you must know how to live

very nicely. That is civilization. But they do not know even that. Simply

eating meat and wine, meat and wine, that's all. And this is going on as

civilization. They do not know what is the meaning of civilization. Na te

viduh svartha-gatim hi visnum [sB 7.5.31]. Real civilization means to

understand God. Here is God.

>>> Ref. VedaBase => Morning Walk -- October 28, 1975, Nairobi

Get dial-up Internet access now with our best offer: 6 months @$9.95/month!.

December 21, 2003

However the 4 times more costly thing is a

bit of a problem, isn't it??

I currently live in BF Iowa City, IA (any old midwestern town) and every

supermarket sells organic milk for $5.00+ per gal.

Who would have thought they could sell a drop at that price a few years ago

(in the large gallon jugs at that). So what you know? ..the gernal people are

wisening up a bit and choosing a higher path (little by little).

People understand that they vote with thier dollar. If there is a better

choice, a more ethical and more intellegent choice, people will gradually adopt

it

(perhaps very gradually, but certainly times and peole are changing).

(that ox xupply webiste was sweeeeet!!! - thanks for the info)

YS -Gopal dasa

December 21, 2003

Sorry.

I'll use my spell checker next time.

(misspellers of the world UNTIE!!!)

December 21, 2003

> However the 4 times more costly thing is a

> bit of a problem, isn't it??

Exactly

> I currently live in BF Iowa City, IA (any old midwestern town) and every

> supermarket sells organic milk for $5.00+ per gal.

>

Protected milk would around $10 a gallon in most US locations, as one rough

calculation has it. It would have to be subsidized to be realistic. If every

devotee and life member, every time they bought a gallon of commercial milk,

donated $1 to a trust fund, over a period of time this would really add up.

The trust could, for example, buy land, put up a barn and a house, and make

it available to someone who wanted to care for cows. Land and buildings are

a big component of cost of milk The trust could also hire devotees to care

for surplus cows, or contract with devotees for oxpower. Lot of ways to go,

but until the general devotees wean themselves from the concept it is okay

to use commercial milk, nothing will happen. The economics of the situation

are too much for a few pioneering individuals to overcome.

December 22, 2003

At the Friends meeting this morning a suggestion that we use windmill energy

was put forward. This is a house in the middle of the capital of the state,

next door to a very elite shopping center. "Friendly" energy would cost 1/3

more than what is electric company provided. Yet we will possibly vote that

way. SO, more money is not an impossibility, the idea simply has to be

presented in a palatable way.

Conciousness has to be there. This means being out there in the public in

some way. Or who will know even what "protected" milk is?? ekaB

December 25, 2003

[This message was in HTML format]

Protected Milk that I buy, is presently sold in the Gita Nagari community for 3

dollars per gallon....... And the reason that is so is cause it is local and

you bring your own gallon jar... So there is no factory; bottling plant; QC

inspectors; FDA; Health inpectors; Trucks deliveries; highway fuel tax; Stores;

sales reps; refrigerated storage; managers; employees; plastic; paper work;

Heavy equipment; Transported feed; maintanence crew; milking machines; inhouse

Vets with ready siringes with antibiotics...; Pasturization; costly overhead;

Madness; cow slaughter; and probably a thousand other things that I missed that

also are not present.... To go about this " Venture" and ignore Prabhupada is

sickning. ( I posted before twice, specificaly to people and never seen a

response... probably cause it didn't fit in with their agenda... business,....)

I promise great FAILIER... And if not immediatly identified, I will pray for

it......

There was some other mad idiot who also got on this conference and tried to

push his mad VENURE onto the devotees..... From South America.... can't

remember his name... He also admitted he would never have a part in ISKCON; (

Prabhupada), And here we go again with the same old

Another reason they can afford to sell the milk at that price is cause it is

VERY SMALL SCALE and will NEVER BECOME A BUSINESS... THey just are selling the

excess milk pouring out of their ears.. While at the same time getting their

own needs worth of milk... IF there were 10 people with 1 cow each in the whole

community.... The situation would be everflowing with milk enough to feed all

and never have the need for industral efforts, would be very peacful and clean,

simple and ample... And if this stretched for miles,

then......................

Please take ideals and not offense..

Hare Krsna..............................

> > However the 4 times more costly thing is a

> > bit of a problem, isn't it??

>

>Exactly

>

> > I currently live in BF Iowa City, IA (any old midwestern town) and every

> > supermarket sells organic milk for $5.00+ per gal.

> >

>

>Protected milk would around $10 a gallon in most US locations, as one rough

>calculation has it. It would have to be subsidized to be realistic. If every

>devotee and life member, every time they bought a gallon of commercial milk,

>donated $1 to a trust fund, over a period of time this would really add up.

>The trust could, for example, buy land, put up a barn and a house, and make

>it available to someone who wanted to care for cows. Land and buildings are

>a big component of cost of milk The trust could also hire devotees to care

>for surplus cows, or contract with devotees for oxpower. Lot of ways to go,

>but until the general devotees wean themselves from the concept it is okay

>to use commercial milk, nothing will happen. The economics of the situation

>are too much for a few pioneering individuals to overcome.

>

>-----------------------

>To from this mailing list, send an email to:

>Cow-Owner (AT) pamho (DOT) net

Enjoy a special introductory offer for dial-up Internet access — limited time

only! Get dial-up Internet access now with our best offer: 6 months

@$9.95/month! .

December 25, 2003

>Milk that I buy, is presently sold in the Gita Nagari community for 3

> dollars per gallon....... And the reason that is so is cause it is local

and

> you bring your own gallon jar... So there is no ...<

I doubt very much there is prorated cost of equipment and land included in

that price, and since the cows at Gita Nagari are supported by the Adopt a

Cow program, it is a subsidized price, which is what will need to be done.

Protected milk's true price is prohibitive if all factors, even in a local

economy, are figured in. The $3 figure is Enron accounting.

December 26, 2003

Having worked for Adopt-A-Cow and calculated yearly farm expenditures and

divided them by the number of cows in the herd, I have to say that I too wonder

if the figure of $3 per gallon requests the true costs of the milk.

I remember when I was a cowherd at Gita-nagari, we sold the milk for $3 or even

$2 per gallon -- with the idea that that was a figure that people would be

willing to pay. In that way they could at least help pay for the cow program

and have a pure product to offer to their Deities. However, a substantial part

of the farm budget came from Adopt-A-Cow.

ys

hkdd

-

Mark Middle Mountain <gourdmad (AT) ovnet (DOT) com>

Thursday, December 25, 2003 1:40 pm

Re: Ox Power as emblem of Hare Krsna's

> >Milk that I buy, is presently sold in the Gita Nagari community

> for 3

> > dollars per gallon....... And the reason that is so is cause it

> is local

> and

> > you bring your own gallon jar... So there is no ...<

>

> I doubt very much there is prorated cost of equipment and land

> included in

> that price, and since the cows at Gita Nagari are supported by the

> Adopt a

> Cow program, it is a subsidized price, which is what will need to

> be done.

> Protected milk's true price is prohibitive if all factors, even in

> a local

> economy, are figured in. The $3 figure is Enron accounting.

>

> -----------------------

> To from this mailing list, send an email to:

> Cow-Owner (AT) pamho (DOT) net

>

December 26, 2003

-

Mark Middle Mountain <gourdmad (AT) ovnet (DOT) com>

Thursday, December 25, 2003 1:40 pm

Re: Ox Power as emblem of Hare Krsna's

> >Milk that I buy, is presently sold in the Gita Nagari community

> for 3

> > dollars per gallon....... And the reason that is so is cause it

> is local

> and

> > you bring your own gallon jar... So there is no ...<

>

> I doubt very much there is prorated cost of equipment and land

> included in

> that price, and since the cows at Gita Nagari are supported by the

> Adopt a

> Cow program, it is a subsidized price, which is what will need to

> be done.

> Protected milk's true price is prohibitive if all factors, even in

> a local

> economy, are figured in. The $3 figure is Enron accounting.

*********

Hmmm... I'm not sure that I agree completely with either of viewpoint.

First, it seems quite doubtful that $3 per gallon reflects all the actual costs

(present and future) of the gallon of milk.

But second, unless misunderstand the discussion, it seems a little harsh to go

so far as to label the $3 per gallon figure as "Enron accounting."

It effect, it seems like it is simply an instance of marginal cost pricing.

In economic terms, many firms use the practice of marginal cost pricing to

accommodate the fact that the demand curve is downward sloping.

A common example is an airline firm. Let's say that I run Bumblebee airlines.

My airplane can hold 100 passengers. At $1000 per ticket I can sell 60 tickets

per trip. That means that I am getting no money at all for the 40 empty seat.

However, when I use marginal cost pricing and come up with a deal where the

last 40 seats cost $500 per seat -- then instead of getting zero, I am getting

another $20,000.

The fact is that $1000 per ticket would more than pay the cost of the trip --

if all seats were filled. But they are not -- so better get another $20,000

than nothing.

So, marginal cost pricing is not at all a shady business practice. But if we

are doing an economic analysis, we have to understand that this is what is

happening. We can assume that Bumblebee airlines can afford to depend on $500

per seat to fund the whole London-New York round trip. It can't.

Similarly, if Gita-nagari had to rely only on the $3 per gallon that it gets

from nearby residents, it would not be able to provide quality protection for

all its cows. More likely, what is happening is that -- in effect Adopt a Cow

is purchasing milk for the temples Deities at something lik $14 per gallon and

the local devotees are purchasing milk for $3 per gallon.

But marginal cost pricing is not what Enron was doing -- they were doing

something more complex and downright dishonest. I don't think that's what's

happening at Gita-nagari.

your servant,

Hare Krsna dasi

December 26, 2003

A substantial part of the budget when I was there came from the sankirtan

party that consisted of mostly a handful of women and 2 men. My husband,

Balabhadra, was one of the two men. He was the biggest collector for two

years straight beating all the women. The meditation he had for years out

there was that he was collecting for the cows.

When he physically fell apart due to years of poor eating and very long

hours, he came back to the farm and we took up managing the school and

Adopt a Cow. Adopt A Cow was highly financially inefficient at that time.

So not that much money came from Adopt A Cow, it was mostly from those

sankirtan devotees who spent only a few days a year on the farm.

Taht is why Parmananda das, TP, called an end to the sankirtan party

feeling it was no longer right for the farm to be subsidised by so few

devotees who were all falling apart. He wanted to see the residents on the

farm become self reliant and not depend on outside help so much. The result

was that most of the devotees left.

Now the herd is less than the cows we have here- I think about 25 cows.

Please correct me if I am wrong, but the number is very low compared to

what it was when we were there. Also the number of residents is low

compared to the past.We then had over one hundred cows and over 100

devotees. When you are dealing with so few cows, the mortgage is paid, the

buildings and everything has benn there for a long time-your setup is

intact-then maybe you can afford to offer your milk for that price. Much of

the cost has been already paid for by the sweat of those who came before.

Like inheriting your father's land.

Madhava Gosh has been trying to make this point for a long time-the proper

setup and maintenance costs and is part of the realistic cost of milk.

It is true what Hare Krsna dasi says about one of the reasons the price was

low was becuase the devotees wouldn't pay anymore. We were even delivering

it to them to get them into it so that later maybe they would come to the

temple for the milk. I remember a discussion about if we were to charge for

the delivery they wouldn't pay for it.

Visit us at: www.iscowp.org

> [Original Message]

> Noma T. Petroff <npetroff (AT) bowdoin (DOT) edu>

> Mark Middle Mountain <gourdmad (AT) ovnet (DOT) com>

> Cc: billy bob buckwheat <d_4h (AT) hotmail (DOT) com>; Cow (Protection and related

issues) <Cow (AT) pamho (DOT) net>

> 12/27/2003 6:00:03 PM

> Re: Ox Power as emblem of Hare Krsna's

>

> Having worked for Adopt-A-Cow and calculated yearly farm expenditures and

> divided them by the number of cows in the herd, I have to say that I too

wonder

> if the figure of $3 per gallon requests the true costs of the milk.

>

> I remember when I was a cowherd at Gita-nagari, we sold the milk for $3

or even

> $2 per gallon -- with the idea that that was a figure that people would be

> willing to pay. In that way they could at least help pay for the cow

program

> and have a pure product to offer to their Deities. However, a substantial

part

> of the farm budget came from Adopt-A-Cow.

>

> ys

> hkdd

>

> -

> Mark Middle Mountain <gourdmad (AT) ovnet (DOT) com>

> Thursday, December 25, 2003 1:40 pm

> Re: Ox Power as emblem of Hare Krsna's

>

> > >Milk that I buy, is presently sold in the Gita Nagari community

> > for 3

> > > dollars per gallon....... And the reason that is so is cause it

> > is local

> > and

> > > you bring your own gallon jar... So there is no ...<

> >

> > I doubt very much there is prorated cost of equipment and land

> > included in

> > that price, and since the cows at Gita Nagari are supported by the

> > Adopt a

> > Cow program, it is a subsidized price, which is what will need to

> > be done.

> > Protected milk's true price is prohibitive if all factors, even in

> > a local

> > economy, are figured in. The $3 figure is Enron accounting.

> >

> > -----------------------

> > To from this mailing list, send an email to:

> > Cow-Owner (AT) pamho (DOT) net

> >

December 26, 2003

-

"ISCOWP (Balabhadra Dasa & Chaya Dasi - USA)" <ISCOWP (AT) pamho (DOT) net>

Friday, December 26, 2003 6:40 pm

Re: Ox Power as emblem of Hare Krsna's

> A substantial part of the budget when I was there came from the

> sankirtanparty that consisted of mostly a handful of women and 2

> men. My husband,

> Balabhadra, was one of the two men. He was the biggest collector

> for two

> years straight beating all the women. The meditation he had for

> years out

> there was that he was collecting for the cows.

>

> When he physically fell apart due to years of poor eating and very

> longhours, he came back to the farm and we took up managing the

> school and

> Adopt a Cow. Adopt A Cow was highly financially inefficient at

> that time.

> So not that much money came from Adopt A Cow, it was mostly from those

> sankirtan devotees who spent only a few days a year on the farm.

>

> Taht is why Parmananda das, TP, called an end to the sankirtan party

> feeling it was no longer right for the farm to be subsidised by so few

> devotees who were all falling apart. He wanted to see the

> residents on the

> farm become self reliant and not depend on outside help so much.

> The result

> was that most of the devotees left.

>

> Now the herd is less than the cows we have here- I think about 25

> cows.Please correct me if I am wrong, but the number is very low

> compared to

> what it was when we were there. Also the number of residents is low

> compared to the past.We then had over one hundred cows and over 100

> devotees. When you are dealing with so few cows, the mortgage is

> paid, the

> buildings and everything has benn there for a long time-your setup is

> intact-then maybe you can afford to offer your milk for that

> price. Much of

> the cost has been already paid for by the sweat of those who came

> before.Like inheriting your father's land.

Hmmm... I didn't realize that the mortgage was actually paid off now. I

thought they had to take additional mortgage to cover the expense of the suit

against the New York temple in the 1980s. Anyway, if the land is now paid off

that is very good news.

Mortgage payments to cover land costs is about the biggest economic distortion

which make small-scale self-sufficiency almost impossible in a modern

capitalist economy -- since land speculation raises the costs of the land to

unrealistic figures.

So if Gita-nagari no longer has to deal with mortgage payments, the cost of the

milk would be much less.

ys

hkdd

>

> Madhava Gosh has been trying to make this point for a long time-

> the proper

> setup and maintenance costs and is part of the realistic cost of milk.

>

> It is true what Hare Krsna dasi says about one of the reasons the

> price was

> low was becuase the devotees wouldn't pay anymore. We were even

> deliveringit to them to get them into it so that later maybe they

> would come to the

> temple for the milk. I remember a discussion about if we were to

> charge for

> the delivery they wouldn't pay for it.

>

> Visit us at: www.iscowp.org

>

> > [Original Message]

> > Noma T. Petroff <npetroff (AT) bowdoin (DOT) edu>

> > Mark Middle Mountain <gourdmad (AT) ovnet (DOT) com>

> > Cc: billy bob buckwheat <d_4h (AT) hotmail (DOT) com>; Cow (Protection and

> relatedissues) <Cow (AT) pamho (DOT) net>

> > 12/27/2003 6:00:03 PM

> > Re: Ox Power as emblem of Hare Krsna's

> >

> > Having worked for Adopt-A-Cow and calculated yearly farm

> expenditures and

> > divided them by the number of cows in the herd, I have to say

> that I too

> wonder

> > if the figure of $3 per gallon requests the true costs of the milk.

> >

> > I remember when I was a cowherd at Gita-nagari, we sold the milk

> for $3

> or even

> > $2 per gallon -- with the idea that that was a figure that

> people would be

> > willing to pay. In that way they could at least help pay for

> the cow

> program

> > and have a pure product to offer to their Deities. However, a

> substantialpart

> > of the farm budget came from Adopt-A-Cow.

> >

> > ys

> > hkdd

> >

> > -

> > Mark Middle Mountain <gourdmad (AT) ovnet (DOT) com>

> > Thursday, December 25, 2003 1:40 pm

> > Re: Ox Power as emblem of Hare Krsna's

> >

> > > >Milk that I buy, is presently sold in the Gita Nagari

> community

> > > for 3

> > > > dollars per gallon....... And the reason that is so is cause

> it

> > > is local

> > > and

> > > > you bring your own gallon jar... So there is no ...<

> > >

> > > I doubt very much there is prorated cost of equipment and land

> > > included in

> > > that price, and since the cows at Gita Nagari are supported by

> the

> > > Adopt a

> > > Cow program, it is a subsidized price, which is what will need

> to

> > > be done.

> > > Protected milk's true price is prohibitive if all factors,

> even in

> > > a local

> > > economy, are figured in. The $3 figure is Enron accounting.

> > >

> > > -----------------------

> > > To from this mailing list, send an email to:

> > > Cow-Owner (AT) pamho (DOT) net

> > >

>

> -----------------------

> To from this mailing list, send an email to:

> Cow-Owner (AT) pamho (DOT) net

>

December 27, 2003

>However, a substantial part of the farm budget came from Adopt-A-Cow.

>

Endowment and donation will have to play a part in any protected milk

program.

December 27, 2003

> But marginal cost pricing is not what Enron was doing -- they were doing

something more complex and downright dishonest. I don't think that's what's

happening at Gita-nagari.

>

> your servant,

>

> Hare Krsna dasi

>

Good analysis. I withdraw the Enron remark.

December 27, 2003

Hare Krishna

I pay $5/gal for milk probably from the same cow. It's not an Adopt a Cow

cow; it's from a devotee neighbor. They asked for $3/gallon saying that's

what the local devotees will pay. I said I couldn't in good conscience pay

that little. They reluctantly accepted $5, and seemed to feel slightly

uncomfortable at first, apparently thinking the "extra" to be like charity.

Around here regular non-organic milk sells for about $3/gallon (organic

sells for about $6.80 per gallon). (The milk from the protected cow isn't

quite organic; they feed non-organic grains.) The general attitude of most

devotees I've met is that cheap is good.

When I first went to buy milk from the local devotees, I planned to pay

$8-10, but I was taken by surprise when they asked for $3. It made my

original intended offer seem too weird. Then when I watched them spend a

half-hour to milking the cow and filtering the milk, I thought I should've

paid more. At the same time, I felt that it would be a way of criticizing

the other devotees who bought milk from them.

Another problem with selling cheap milk is that it prevents other devotees

from raising cows. I'd like to have a milking cow within the next few

years, and it would be much easier if we could sell extra milk at a

reasonably sustainable price. Having pure milk for sale at $3/gallon is

like having a Wal-mart in town. Before long there's no one else in

business.

Hare Krishna

Pandu das

>

> Mark Middle Mountain [gourdmad (AT) ovnet (DOT) com]

> Thursday, December 25, 2003 1:34 PM

> billy bob buckwheat; Cow (Protection and related issues)

> Re: Ox Power as emblem of Hare Krsna's

>

> >Milk that I buy, is presently sold in the Gita Nagari community for 3

> >dollars per gallon....... And the reason that is so is cause it is

> >local

> and

> > you bring your own gallon jar... So there is no ...<

>

> I doubt very much there is prorated cost of equipment and land

> included in that price, and since the cows at Gita Nagari are

> supported by the Adopt a Cow program, it is a subsidized price, which

> is what will need to be done. Protected milk's true price is

> prohibitive if all factors, even in a local economy, are figured in.

> The $3 figure is Enron accounting.

December 29, 2003

[This message was in HTML format]

Sorry, for the delay my computer was ill... I forgot to mention the cow that I

buy milk from, has nothing to do with Adopt- a- cow... .. I said In the Gita

Nagari community but I guess I wasn't clear enough.. The family owns the cow

for their own priority of milk.... The 3 dollars could also be seen justifiable

by the fact that She is there already and will be milked anyway... Being sold

or not..... The abundant cow has excess which I've heard in practice of

throwing into the soil, is being sold by this family which was also done in

Vedic times as well as now.... This cow gets alot of treats... which would be

thrown out anyway but make her very happy... and more so, being a family member

and not an obstacle of finacial support or business..... This is not the way to

think of a defensless, innocent family member... Keep your mother and children

at home and out of the factory.... If there is excess so sell it.. But don't

build a profit margin.....

I Also forgot to mention that sometimes they would rather I brought the guessed

equivalent in vegtibles from my garden, instead of money.... And I bring my own

treats for Rohini the cow.. Just because I appreciate her... You'll never

find this going on in a factory...

Hare Krsna.................

Derek-

Expand your wine savvy — and get some great new recipes — at MSN Wine. .

December 29, 2003

-

billy bob buckwheat <d_4h (AT) hotmail (DOT) com>

Sunday, December 28, 2003 9:50 pm

RE: Ox Power as emblem of Hare Krsna's

> [This message was in HTML format]

>

> Sorry, for the delay my computer was ill... I forgot to mention

> the cow that I

> buy milk from, has nothing to do with Adopt- a- cow... .. I said

> In the Gita

> Nagari community but I guess I wasn't clear enough.. The family

> owns the cow

> for their own priority of milk.... The 3 dollars could also be

> seen justifiable

> by the fact that She is there already and will be milked anyway...

Again, this sounds like a version of marginal cost pricing. The family is

paying for the real costs of maintaining the cow -- but getting the $3 per

gallon from you is better than getting nothing at all.

The two main factors which drive up the true cost of milk are generally

mortgage or rental costs for the land and the pro-rated costs for keeping the

bull calf alive for the rest of its life. As I'm sure you and most others on

this conference realize, unfortunately the second cost is all too often not

provided for by sentimentalist devotees. The bull or ox gets to be about 5

years old and they suddenly claim that they can no longer afford to keep it

(having conveniently spent all the milk money instead of saving it for the

bull's future upkeeep). At that point they attempt to dump the unwanted bull

or ox at the nearest Hare Krsna farm. And devotees are generally too

soft-hearted to say "No."

But this is a digression. Hopefully, under your informed influence, the family

has been able to put something aside for the future maintenance of the calf.

The best thing about this situation is that it is very small scale, not

commercial scale. That greatly increases the chances that they will be able to

responsibly maintain their commitment.

On another note, my applause to the devotee that mentioned that he is paying $5

per gallon for Gita-nagari milk. This is a worthy gesture.

ys

hkdd

> Being sold

> or not..... The abundant cow has excess which I've heard in

> practice of

> throwing into the soil, is being sold by this family which was

> also done in

> Vedic times as well as now.... This cow gets alot of treats...

> which would be

> thrown out anyway but make her very happy... and more so, being a

> family member

> and not an obstacle of finacial support or business..... This is

> not the way to

> think of a defensless, innocent family member... Keep your mother

> and children

> at home and out of the factory.... If there is excess so sell

> it.. But don't

> build a profit margin.....

>

> I Also forgot to mention that sometimes they would rather I

> brought the guessed

> equivalent in vegtibles from my garden, instead of money.... And I

> bring my own

> treats for Rohini the cow.. Just because I appreciate her...

> You'll never

> find this going on in a factory...

>

> Hare Krsna.................

>

> Derek-

>

> Expand your wine savvy - and get some great new recipes - at MSN

> Wine. .

>

> -----------------------

> To from this mailing list, send an email to:

> Cow-Owner (AT) pamho (DOT) net

>

December 29, 2003

[This message was in HTML format]

This is true as far as marginal cost go... but I think there is a point that is

being missed and that is... The Family has the land anyway, for their own

living and potential generative expansion through the years...... So the land

is already there and being paid for anyway.... So you can't entirely split

cost of land as in part being the burden of supporting a cow since the land is

being bought anyway years before the cow is introduced.... Now Add in the

point that they got the cow not knowing what kind of motherly supply she would

produce... ( which she has been dried up after milking for some years and then

milked again without being refreshed..) no calf so far) just love).... They

suddenly find she gives more than what can be used by themselves and then sold

or traded or given.......( not for profit, just helps with the hay which will

be bought anyway).. Now include that they know they will live out their days

on this property, as long as Krsna allows... And have no intentions on throwing

away their beloved Rohini just as they wouldn't their own sons.....What ever

age, producing or not........ For sure... This is some cost which could be

tossed and called profit...... Which how do you put a price on Love... Some

people spend more on their hobbies...

On a vidio about cows I heard India spends less on its sick and crippled cows

than the US spends on its pet population and the population of cows in India is

Many times larger than the US pet population....

(Not exact)......

If they base the hay on an 180 day winter and Feed Rohini a bale a day at 3 to

4 dollars a bale for deccent to nice grass.... Thats between 540 dollars to

720 dollars... for the year in just hay.. If they sell the milk 4 to 5 days a

week thats 12 to 15. x 52= 624 to 780.... plus grains and salt and Pandu's and

other's extra donations.... It becomes very small cost for their own milk all

year round...... and Fresh, uncontaminated..... And the relationship and

experience... how to put cost on everything becomes too crazy.... Nobody in the

village goes through this math first... they just know and get the cow because

the cow itself is an being of wealth, and even mother laxmi resides in her

dung... What to speak of that cost......

Hare Krsna........

Derek-

>Again, this sounds like a version of marginal cost pricing. The family is

paying for the real costs of maintaining the cow -- but getting the $3 per

gallon from you is better than getting nothing at all.

>

>The two main factors which drive up the true cost of milk are generally