Guest guest Posted December 17, 2003 Report Share Posted December 17, 2003 > > But, in our fuel crises of the future, when the well has finally run dry > (well, not totally dry -- but dry enough so that only the military and > the rich can still afford gasoline), that is the point when we do really > need ox power. > I don't hink you will see oxen diminish to the zero point, tho there would be some crisis at some point I am sure. To see what happens when oil does dry up in this modern era, look at the example of Cuba. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 17, 2003 Report Share Posted December 17, 2003 [This message was in HTML format] The idea of converting to Oxen, or Ox power does not need to be sold to the public for their approval.. Nor do we need to keep it in reserves for a crisis... Even if small scale, its not a business prop. or a competition with industry... It is a way of your own life.. You use the oxen for your needs ( food, wood hauling, ect..) As the numbers increase so does curiosity... And a trend is developed... When the oil dries up the people will remember the Amish with horses and the Vaisnavas with Oxen..... getting things done.. Just get an Ox if possible and give him jobs around the house... Fetch the mail..?? There are so many Ox teamsters now in the NorthEast US.. THey are not competing with Excavators, but they are into Oxen.. And they don't even have the greatest pholosophy nor the example and ispiration of " GOD " doing it..... Hare Krsna... Derek- >Ekabuddh (AT) aol (DOT) com wrote: > > >broad scale ox power would be very much appreciated if there were no fuels > >for larger equipment. SInce this is not the case at this time, I do not see > >the > >whole world using oxen power in the near future. > > > >I wish I had some statistics handy, but groups like ATNESA and others >can provide documentation that shows that most of the world's poor >people eat food produced by animal traction. So, for them, ox power is >not a romantic idea -- it's a life-and-death idea. > >But for people living in industrialized cultures (whether rich or poor) >ox power is, indeed, as you note, a romantic idea. > >You are probably correct in noting that -- all things being equal -- >people in industrialized cultures will not be interested in using ox >power as long as there are fossil fuels available for heaby equipment. > >Of course, we all know that those fossil fuels will be running out by >the time our grandchildren are grown. But that brings me to an >interesting scenario. Probably, if no one intercedes, ox power will >*not* be there when they need it. > >Here's the scenario: > >Sooner (with oil wars, rebel sabotage, cartel price manipulation, etc.) >or later (with less of those things), oil will gradually become to >expensive to use for agriculture. > >The first place in agriculture to be hit when oil prices increase is >livestock. The bigger the livestock breed, the heavier the impact of >increasing oil prices. Why is that? It only takes 3 pounds of feed to >make a pound of chicken, but it takes 22 pounds of feed to make a pound >of beef. Practically speaking, beef represents a highly concentrated >amount of oil -- since it takes so much oil to produce the food to feed >the livestock. > >That is the reason why, historically speaking, when you see gasoline >prices going up, you will also see at the same time a sharp increase in >the rate of cow slaughter. Farmers simply cannot afford the escalating >feed prices, so they slaughter large numbers of cows. Then, as >petroleum prices go back down, they allow their herds to expand again. > >But, what would be the natural sequence of events if the oil prices did >*not* go back down. Then, simply, they would keep slaughtering more and >more cows. More and more farms of all types would go out of business, >because they either could not pay high feed prices (the first ones to >go), or they could not pay high petroleum prices to fuel their tractors. > (What to speak of increasing fertilizer prices -- when the rest of the >economy switches to natural gas to replace fuel oil for heating.) From >the perspective of the consumer, the good thing about a fuel crises is >cheap hamburger -- because so many farmers are killing off herds they >can no longer afford to feed. > >But, in our fuel crises of the future, when the well has finally run dry >(well, not totally dry -- but dry enough so that only the military and >the rich can still afford gasoline), that is the point when we do really >need ox power. > >But, the big problem when that happens (in 20-40 years) is that, at the >point when we really need the oxen. They will all be gone -- because >we've eaten them all up in cheap hamburgers, when the crises was just >beginning. > >This is why we need to support our Hare Krsna ox teamsters. They are >the only ones who will make sure that the cows and oxen are still there >when we really, really need them a couple decades down the road. But >they can't do it without the support of the larger community of devotees. > >This is why the vegans have to be taught that there is one more step >beyond being a vegan -- it's actually helping to make sure that the cows >and oxen stay alive so that we don't all eventually starve to death. > >your servant, > >Hare Krsna dasi > > >----------------------- >To from this mailing list, send an email to: >Cow-Owner (AT) pamho (DOT) net Grab our best dial-up Internet access offer: 6 months @$9.95/month. . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 18, 2003 Report Share Posted December 18, 2003 > When the oil dries up the people will remember the Amish > with horses You do know that more then half the Amish no longer make their living from farming, don't you? and the Vaisnavas with Oxen..... getting things done.. > There are so many Ox teamsters now in the NorthEast US.. THey are not competing > with Excavators, but they are into Oxen.. A lot of them are competing with each other at fairs. It is a sport. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 18, 2003 Report Share Posted December 18, 2003 - Mark Middle Mountain <gourdmad (AT) ovnet (DOT) com> Wednesday, December 17, 2003 5:13 pm Re: Ox Power - Not there when you need it? > > > > > > But, in our fuel crises of the future, when the well has finally > run dry > > (well, not totally dry -- but dry enough so that only the > military and > > the rich can still afford gasoline), that is the point when we > do really > > need ox power. > > > > I don't hink you will see oxen diminish to the zero point, tho > there would > be some crisis at some point I am sure. No, I don't think we'll see oxen diminish to zero either, but I do think it's a realistic possibility that in a terminal fuel crisis the cow population could be cut back to a very small percentage of what it is now -- in most developed western countries. To see what happens when oil does > dry up in this modern era, look at the example of Cuba. Cuba is a good place to look for optimistic possibilities, since they went from having the most highly industrialized agriculture in Latin America -- to having several hundred trained oxen, within the space of ten years. The process, as described by Fernando Funes and other Cuban ecology writers was really amazing. One think to keep in mind, however, is that it seems unlikely that a Cuban-style response to fossil fuel shortage could be applied in modern western democracies such as the U.S. and Western Europe. When we say that we live in a "free" country we have to remember that one of the central values of modern Western democracies is that it means free to be a predator capitalist. When solutions cannot be well-formulated in capitalist terms, we are becoming worse and worse at coming up with effective answers for problems -- such as poor schools, AIDS, homelessness, unemployment, etc. I doubt that in the U.S. we'll ever see the kind of mass transformation to small-scale ox-powered organic agriculture that we witnessed in Cuba in the 1990's. Because the overall argument for it would be social welfare and survival, rather than increasing capitalist profits, I just don't think it our people would be able to understand it. At the same time -- although it definitely had its advantages in responding to a national fuel crisis and saving the lives of the people -- a harsh dictatorship like Cuba definitely has its downside. It's hard to maintain commitment to it's social goals of simple living and equal distribution of wealth over the long term. We can definitely see communism dying away in China. The CIA and others are bracing for the day when Castro dies, and all the exiled Cuban capitalists hop on their boats and head back to Havana to claim their ancestral property. I'm expecting that soon after Castro's death, companies like John Deere will be right there. I expect that most of the working oxen will be killed off within 5 years. Castro is definitely not my hero, but especially after seeing what happened after the fall of communism in the USSR, I do look with apprehension on the collapse of many idealistic programs which have developed in Cuba. I'm expecting that under the influence of the World Bank, ox power and organic farming will be about the first things to go. But maybe I'm wrong about Cuba -- and maybe I'm wrong about the US also. I hope so. ys hkdd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 18, 2003 Report Share Posted December 18, 2003 - Mark Middle Mountain <gourdmad (AT) ovnet (DOT) com> Wednesday, December 17, 2003 8:33 pm Re: Ox Power - Not there when you need it? > > When the oil dries up the people will remember the Amish > > with horses > > You do know that more then half the Amish no longer make their > living from > farming, don't you? > > and the Vaisnavas with Oxen..... getting things done.. > > There are so many Ox teamsters now in the NorthEast US.. THey > are not > competing > > with Excavators, but they are into Oxen.. > > A lot of them are competing with each other at fairs. It is a sport. I'm glad that they are even competing at fairs, and I have to say that all the teamsters that I see at the fairs are just real nice people. Again, the sad thing is that agribussiness is gradually making these people extinct. It used to be that New England was covered with many small dairy farms. Part of the culture was that the kids were in the 4-H Club (an agriculture club). As part of their 4-H activities, one popular activity was to train a team of oxen. That was very easy to do -- just get two calves from Mom and Dad's herd and train them up. The problem now is that the milk check no longer pays for Mom and Dad's feed bill, so a lot of these farms are going out of business. As they do, it's less and less likely that youngsters will receive their early indoctrination into ox power that they have up to now -- since their parents are no longer dairy farmers. Thus, this hobby is gradually dying out. I've seen some ISKCON communities develop Boy Scout or Girl Scout clubs. It seems like it would be a good thing if they could start developing things along the lines of the 4-H, which would encourage youngsters to develop agricultural skills. ys hkdd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 18, 2003 Report Share Posted December 18, 2003 Mitrasena is doing a boy scout troop. Has anyone suggested to him? I will if it has not been already been discussed. obeisances eka Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 18, 2003 Report Share Posted December 18, 2003 In a message dated 12/17/03 11:40:29 PM Eastern Standard Time, npetroff (AT) bowdoin (DOT) edu writes: > -- a harsh > dictatorship like Cuba definitely has its downside. Having had a great many Cuban friends and acquaintences, I'm not sure that the Cuban example is the best one to make people ox-power friendly. The exchange in personal suffering that led to the use of oxen might be seen as a major downside. eka Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 18, 2003 Report Share Posted December 18, 2003 The point was not to promote Cubs, but to show an example that the transition can be made. > In a message dated 12/17/03 11:40:29 PM Eastern Standard Time, > npetroff (AT) bowdoin (DOT) edu writes: > > > > -- a harsh > > dictatorship like Cuba definitely has its downside. > > Having had a great many Cuban friends and acquaintences, I'm not sure that > the Cuban example is the best one to make people ox-power friendly. The > exchange in personal suffering that led to the use of oxen might be seen as a major > downside. > eka > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 18, 2003 Report Share Posted December 18, 2003 Mark Middle Mountain wrote: >The point was not to promote Cuba, but to show an example that the >transition can be made. > Yes, I think it is very important that Cuba presents a practical example that it is possible to tranform from highly industrialized agriculture to an ox-power agriculture -- which is also far more environmentally friendly. It proves that it's wrong to assume that once you make the switch to industrialized agriculture you can't go back to ox power. It can definitely be done, because the Cubans have done it. So it's an important example. So it can be done, but we need to keep in mind that it would probably be more difficult for the US to do it than it was for Cuba. ys hkdd >>In a message dated 12/17/03 11:40:29 PM Eastern Standard Time, >>npetroff (AT) bowdoin (DOT) edu writes: >> >> >> >> >>>-- a harsh >>>dictatorship like Cuba definitely has its downside. >>> >>> >>Having had a great many Cuban friends and acquaintences, I'm not sure that >>the Cuban example is the best one to make people ox-power friendly. The >>exchange in personal suffering that led to the use of oxen might be seen >> >> >as a major downside. > > >>eka >> >> >> > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 19, 2003 Report Share Posted December 19, 2003 [This message was in HTML format] >You do know that more then half the Amish no longer make their living from >farming, don't you? I don't know the statistics, but I live in central Pennsylvania and I'm surrounded with Amish, Amish farms and Amish buggies, and Amish horses.... Amish neigbors.... Either way, they have the reputaion and would be remembered... >A lot of them are competing with each other at fairs. It is a sport. Yes.... Pretty cool... I have some photos.... It’s our best dial-up Internet access offer: 6 months @$9.95/month. Get it now! . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 19, 2003 Report Share Posted December 19, 2003 [This message was in HTML format] I didn't know the history of Cuba reverting back to the Oxen... Maybe they've always had it, like us... off in the wood work... or the poor farmers who couldn't buy tractors just continued the family practice.... and then the problem came with the petrol and everyone got back into it...?? Anyway, We don't have to wait for the fall of oil.... Nor does it need to be a scenario for the masses to join in.... Lets talk of the hear and now... It also doesn't need to be the goal of life but should just be incorperated into it... in the heart as just something that is required, even if you think your lousy at it.... Americans, competing for the latest fadd... and newest diversity... what is the culture actualy..?? Hotdogs, beer belly, 4 wheeling, mailbox base ball.....??? When I think of the Amish I think of Horses and farming and wood mills, carts and buggies... Its something that you can identify them with..... They all keep a certain amount of culture as being theirs... in common;;.... When I think of the US devotees, I think of diversity, Americans with tulasi beads... Why not oxen.. and agriculture.....? When I went to the Ox training course in Kalamazoo MI. the head cheese there, Dick Rosenburg, while giving a lecture outside in front of huge groups of people, he would give examples of the techniques.... And to my suprise, he quite often for some reason, gave examples that caught my attention... He would refer to the Hare Krsna's .... " The Hare Krsna's will do like this ;; and that..." ect.... He would describe in a way in front of all those people and still does, as being that Hare Krsna's live this way in common.... As a way of life.... There is alot of people going through there and thinking that this is what is part of the life of the Krsna's.... After some people started to catch on that Me and Madhusudana were Hare Krsna's then we got alot of eyes and attention when we were demonstrating our abilities at driving the oxen through courses... People were asking questions about Ox psycology, cause they were led to think thats what we do... A few of their live in trainiees were intrested to come to the farm and stay to learn and check things out.. If only Dick Rosenburg realy knew what is going on.... maybe better not.....?? Hare Krsna, Derek- Enjoy the holiday season with great tips from MSN. . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 19, 2003 Report Share Posted December 19, 2003 In a message dated 12/17/03 3:55:05 PM Eastern Standard Time, npetroff (AT) bowdoin (DOT) edu writes: > This is why the vegans have to be taught that there is one more step > beyond being a vegan -- it's actually helping to make sure that the cows > and oxen stay alive so that we don't all eventually starve to death. > > Hanging around college campuses, there is definitely a large population of vegans. This is definitely a resource, ally to be tapped. Any extinction, drastic decrease in a population creates imbalance, the same as artificially increasing a population with drugs, hormones etc.. Again, with proper management, devotee communities could be set up to facilitate those curious, wanting to research,those seeking training in this mode of farming, survival, grassroots living....thus ensuring that the skill of working oxen would be passed on to future generations. ekaB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 19, 2003 Report Share Posted December 19, 2003 > When I went to the Ox training course in Kalamazoo MI. the head cheese there, > Dick Rosenburg, while giving a lecture outside in front of huge groups of > people, he would give examples of the techniques.... And to my suprise, he > quite often for some reason, gave examples that caught my attention... He would > refer to the Hare Krsna's .... " The Hare Krsna's will do like this ;; and > that..." ect.... He would describe in a way in front of all those people and > still does, as being that Hare Krsna's live this way in common.... As a way of > life.... There is alot of people going through there and thinking that this is > what is part of the life of the Krsna's.... After some people started to catch > on that Me and Madhusudana were Hare Krsna's then we got alot of eyes and > attention when we were demonstrating our abilities at driving the oxen through > courses... People were asking questions about Ox psycology, cause they were led > to think thats what we do... A few of their live in trainiees were intrested > to come to the farm and stay to learn and check things out.. > > If only Dick Rosenburg realy knew what is going on.... maybe better not.....?? We send Dick Rosenberg our newsletters and he recommends people to come here for training. Visit us at: www.iscowp.org Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 19, 2003 Report Share Posted December 19, 2003 suggest it to him Visit us at: www.iscowp.org > [Original Message] > <Ekabuddh (AT) aol (DOT) com> > <npetroff (AT) bowdoin (DOT) edu>; <gourdmad (AT) ovnet (DOT) com> > Cc: <d_4h (AT) hotmail (DOT) com>; Cow (Protection and related issues) <Cow (AT) pamho (DOT) net> > 12/18/2003 5:50:04 AM > Re: Ox Power - Not there when you need it? > > Mitrasena is doing a boy scout troop. Has anyone suggested to him? > I will if it has not been already been discussed. obeisances eka Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 19, 2003 Report Share Posted December 19, 2003 Here's the Maine 4-H link to the "working steer" program. ("Working steer" is their term for young oxen under 2 years old.) http://www.maine4h.umaine.edu/workingsteer.htm ys hkdd ISCOWP (Balabhadra Dasa & Chaya Dasi - USA) wrote: >suggest it to him > >Visit us at: www.iscowp.org > > > > >>[Original Message] >><Ekabuddh (AT) aol (DOT) com> >><npetroff (AT) bowdoin (DOT) edu>; <gourdmad (AT) ovnet (DOT) com> >>Cc: <d_4h (AT) hotmail (DOT) com>; Cow (Protection and related issues) >> >> ><Cow (AT) pamho (DOT) net> > > >>12/18/2003 5:50:04 AM >>Re: Ox Power - Not there when you need it? >> >>Mitrasena is doing a boy scout troop. Has anyone suggested to him? >>I will if it has not been already been discussed. obeisances eka >> >> > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 19, 2003 Report Share Posted December 19, 2003 Actually, scanning the rest of the website, I notice how sharply the agricultural content has dropped -- from even 5 years ago. It would definitely be good if devotee communities could create things to fill the gap. As small farmers get pushed off the land, children have less and less exposure to farming activities and skills. Early exposure to hands-on experience with cows and oxen is so important. The only reason why I got involved with cow protection is because Leora Fillinger taught me how to take care of cows in 1958 for my Girl Scout dairy badge. I wonder if Scouts even have a dairy badge any more? ys hkdd Noma Petroff wrote: >Here's the Maine 4-H link to the "working steer" program. ("Working >steer" is their term for young oxen under 2 years old.) > >http://www.maine4h.umaine.edu/workingsteer.htm > >ys >hkdd > >ISCOWP (Balabhadra Dasa & Chaya Dasi - USA) wrote: > > > >>suggest it to him >> >>Visit us at: www.iscowp.org >> >> >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 20, 2003 Report Share Posted December 20, 2003 I just eeeed it to Madhuha, Mitrasena and a devotee who takes care of the cow there. Ohhhh, I forgot Haridasa, i'll do now Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 20, 2003 Report Share Posted December 20, 2003 I'm going to my Quaker meeting this weekend. I bet one of them will know about dairy badges. I'll try to remember to ask. So, did you have to fill up a bucket of milk? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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