The decisive question...

[Guest guest]

On 18 Dec 1999, Janesvara das wrote:

 

> The referenced devotee seems to imply that because no women were put in

> certain positions during Prabhupadas presence that that somehow becomes the

> standard forever now that he is gone.

 

That's correct. Although there may be exceptions to the rule, the standard is

that women don't assume leadership positions in society. That was also the

standard for eons before Srila Prabhupada's appearance, wasn't it? In other

words, women are not the natural leaders of a society--and I learned that from

Srila Prabhupada. Just do a Folio search if you don't believe it.

 

That would also mean that there is

> never to be varnasrama colleges started.

 

Not quite the same, prabhu. Srila Prabhupada instructed his disciples to

establish VAC, whereas he did not instruct his disciples to "place women in

50% of all ISKCON leadership positions." Or did he?

 

That is incorrect logic, or

> illogical. Devotees lik

[Guest guest]

> [Text 2866672 from COM]

>

> Guru-Krsna Prabhu writes:

>

> > > Point is that in his entire pastime as founder-acarya of his

developing

> > > ISKCON he never saw fit to appoint a woman as GBC or tp. Aren't we

> > > supposed to learn by the combined instructions and *example* set by

the

> > > founder-acarya?

>

> Jnaesvara Prabhu wrote:

>

> > Also in his entire pastime as founder-acarya of his developing ISKCON

he

> > did not have one single *granddisciple*.

> >

> > Does that eliminate you?

>

IT is very sad to see how Senior aren't acting as Acaryas, and lack of

vaisnava etiquette, instead of lovely instructing us Junior just speaking

in a desafiating mood, frustrating lots of nice devotees, loosing their

time writing nonsense.

 

Please Vaisnavas, I humbly request from you all to use these conferences in

a Krsna Katha mood, with the wish to improve our Krsna Conciousness, and

with a cooperation mood as Srila Prabhupada request to us before leaving

this material world, with a brotherhood relationship, if not we won't

please HDG SP, and won't receive his blessings. First think a lot, then

re-read the texts before sending them, is horrible to read so many text in

an offensive mood, and also make us loose precious time.

 

your servant, Sridhari dd

[Guest guest]

In text 2868133 from COM, Janesvara dasa wrote:

 

> there were not women in leadership positions. He stated they could be in

> leadership positions but that was not carried out by his disciples for

some

> reason, prejudice being the likely reason. If devotees had come to

 

Even against householder men there was plenty of prejudice. You can just

imagine the potential for prejudice against women. Sure, there were smiles,

"compasion," counseling and other acts towards them to prove the "respect"

and "concern" for women in the Movement, but in fact they didn't get much

more than what women in second-rate Arab countries get. But then the

gurukulis didn't fare that well either. It will continue to be a struggle

to put things in the proper perspective.

 

YS RK Mex

[Guest guest]

> On 18 Dec 1999, Janesvara das wrote:

>

> > The referenced devotee seems to imply that because no women were put in

> > certain positions during Prabhupadas presence that that somehow becomes

> > the standard forever now that he is gone.

>

> That's correct. Although there may be exceptions to the rule, the standard

> is that women don't assume leadership positions in society. That was also

> the standard for eons before Srila Prabhupada's appearance, wasn't it?

 

Now you are changing things immensely as far as I am concerned. The SOCIETY,

and in Prabhupada's movement I think are somewhat different as regards

*management* positions. The exceptions would be in the case of devotees, if

anyone, don't you think? Especially in Prabhupada's preaching movement.

 

You are saying what Srila Prabhupada did within his own movement before he

left is as it should be in world society. I disagree. Within the movement

certainly there are positions of leadership and management which women are

capable of pursuing and fulfilling to the best of their ability. They are

PREACHING and this transcends all dogma. It simply has to be accepted. I

would offer my sincere respects and obeisances to any qualified and sincere

devotee Mother and I have done so many times as a disciple of Srila

Prabhupada. They are not their bodies and in certain circumstances they must

be trusted with positions of assisting Srila Prabhupada in his mission.

 

This does not translate to a general social deviation of varnasrama-dharma

and Vedic cultural standards, in my opinion. Separation of the sexes is

something we must respect and learn to assimilate logically and practically

without prejudice and bias. I would love to have women around me all the

time but it just ain't good for my spiritual advancement as much as I hate

to admit it. It is a law of material nature and I think the ladies of this

bhakti movement can understand this and help us fallen males to cope with

the situation.

 

Prabhupada did pretty well with this. He had many close disciple

relationships with senior women. I remember well his treatment of a friend

of me and my first wife, Silavati devi. He treated her like incredible. It

was awesome and taught me a lot about how to respect women. Then one

brahmacari spit in the face of Silavati in the NY temple and things got

pretty bad. I tried to track the coward down to mete out some apt punishment

but he left the temple.

 

 

My feelings for general human devotee social management on a regular life

scale, not in an asrama or temple situation, but say in a varnasrama

community, is that there are really plenty of men to fill the varna roles if

properly trained but THERE IS NOT ONE SINGLE MAN who can fill the most

important roles of daughter, wife and mother. This will be an eternal

principle of this material world. And I thank Krsna for it because I think

it works fantastic when applied with devotional service and hearts dedicated

to Krsna, even not so pure hearts.

 

We NEED great mothers and daughters and wives. This is where great men come

from.

[Guest guest]

> On 18 Dec 1999, Janesvara das wrote:

>

> > The referenced devotee seems to imply that because no women were put in

> > certain positions during Prabhupadas presence that that somehow becomes

> > the standard forever now that he is gone.

>

> That's correct. Although there may be exceptions to the rule, the standard

> is that women don't assume leadership positions in society. That was also

> the standard for eons before Srila Prabhupada's appearance, wasn't it?

 

Now you are changing things immensely as far as I am concerned. The SOCIETY,

and in

Prabhupada's movement I think are somewhat different as regards *management*

positions. The exceptions would be in the case of devotees, if anyone, don't

you think? Especially in Prabhupada's preaching movement.

 

Yes, prabhu, I agree that the exceptions would be in the case of devotees,

if anyone. So maybe here or there in the history of ISKCON there will be

some prominent Vaisnavi leaders. But I don't agree that nowadays ISKCON is

such a transcendentally pure society so as to warrant contravening Vedic

social principles and norms with regard to Vaisnavis. The same logic was

used in the past to justify lesser gurus behaving as if mahabhagavatas, to

ignore the need for varnasrama-dharma in the name of transcendence, to

justify illegal activities in the name of preaching, etc.

 

>You are saying what Srila Prabhupada did within his own movement before he

left is >as it should be in world society. I disagree. Within the movement

certainly there >are positions of leadership and management which women are

capable of pursuing and >fulfilling to the best of their ability. They are

PREACHING and this transcends all >dogma. It simply has to be accepted.

 

I grant that they are indeed preaching. But there are various levels of

preaching, just as there are various levels of devotion, right? Are you

suggesting that such women are preaching *moreso* by assuming managerial

roles than if they were to preach by word and example how to be chaste, shy,

homely servants of their children and husbands, etc.? And if so, why?

 

>I would offer my sincere respects and obeisances to any qualified and

sincere >devotee Mother and I have done so many times as a disciple of Srila

Prabhupada. They >are not their bodies and in certain circumstances they

must be trusted with >positions of assisting Srila Prabhupada in his mission.

 

I fully agree with that, for sure. But it seems that we have a different

vision as to how women will *best* assist the sankirtana mission.

>My feelings for general human devotee social management on a regular life

scale, not >in an asrama or temple situation, but say in a varnasrama

community, is that there >are really plenty of men to fill the varna roles

if properly trained but THERE IS >NOT ONE SINGLE MAN who can fill the most

important roles of daughter, wife and >mother. This will be an eternal

principle of this material world.

 

I mostly agree here, also, prabhu, but I don't consider ISKCON

temples/asramas to be an exception to the rule. And please consider why: You

advocate on behalf of Srila Prabhupada--do you not?--that *every* ISKCON

center should be a varnasrama college. So how would ISKCON centers properly

serve their function as vc's if placing women into managerial (ksatriya)

roles? The lesson learned by the students would be that *either* man or

woman can be an adminstrator--wouldn't it be so? But Srila Prabhupada has

already said that women would not be admitted into the vc's. Seems like an

important point to consider.

 

>And I thank Krsna for it because I think it works fantastic when applied

with >devotional service and hearts dedicated to Krsna, even not so pure

hearts.

>We NEED great mothers and daughters and wives. This is where great men come

from.

 

Actually, prabhu--not to be overly sentimental here on a public forum but

just for the record--I also *do* love and appreciate dearly my mother, my

aunts, my 2 younger sisters, my departed grandmothers, and most especially

my (only child) Vaisnavi 14-year-old daughter!

 

Prakrti ki jaya!

[Guest guest]

> I grant that they are indeed preaching. But there are various levels of

> preaching, just as there are various levels of devotion, right? Are you

> suggesting that such women are preaching *moreso* by assuming managerial

> roles than if they were to preach by word and example how to be chaste,

> shy, homely servants of their children and husbands, etc.? And if so, why?

 

 

I want to see the damn men that are supposed to be practicing their dharma

fulfill their varna duties as brahmanas, ksatriyas, etc. But if they do not

due to weakness of heart, then I will support any women who has more courage

than these weak men.

 

 

 

> You advocate on behalf of Srila Prabhupada--do you not?--that *every*

> ISKCON center should be a varnasrama college.

 

 

No. There should be a VC IN every center. Not that every center IS a VC.

 

 

> So how would ISKCON centers

> properly serve their function as vc's if placing women into managerial

> (ksatriya) roles?

 

 

Women are not ksatriyas but they can manage certain situations. I have

worked for many very qualified women who were professional, righteous, and

effective managers. That does not make them ksatriyas. They are still

mothers, daughters and/or wives doing the needful. If they are chanting Hare

Krsna, they are perfecting their lives better than any man who claims to be

a big leader or guru but who does not perform his natural varna truthfully.

 

 

> The lesson learned by the students would be that

> *either* man or woman can be an adminstrator--wouldn't it be so?

 

No. Ksatriyas have no problem creating the natural order of things. That is

leadership. Everyone will able to distinguish the true ksatriya leader.

 

 

> But Srila

> Prabhupada has already said that women would not be admitted into the

> vc's. Seems like an important point to consider.

 

 

No. He said those who are not willing to be educated. There is training even

for sudras what to speak of mothers, daughters and wives. If you do not want

to call it varnasrama college where women will be trained, so be it. These

details can be worked out to the mutual satisfaction of everyone. Everyone

must be concerned for everyone elses training in an unbiased manner.

 

 

 

> >And I thank Krsna for it because I think it works fantastic when applied

> with >devotional service and hearts dedicated to Krsna, even not so pure

> hearts.

> >We NEED great mothers and daughters and wives. This is where great men

> >come

> from.

>

> Actually, prabhu--not to be overly sentimental here on a public forum but

> just for the record--I also *do* love and appreciate dearly my mother, my

> aunts, my 2 younger sisters, my departed grandmothers, and most especially

> my (only child) Vaisnavi 14-year-old daughter!

>

 

 

Its nice to hear. You should engage your tongue more in this manner.

[Guest guest]

>

> I grant that they are indeed preaching. But there are various levels of

> preaching, just as there are various levels of devotion, right? Are you

> suggesting that such women are preaching *moreso* by assuming managerial

> roles than if they were to preach by word and example how to be chaste,

> shy, homely servants of their children and husbands, etc.? And if so, why?

 

Oh, I am going out and practicing prostituitini asrama by distributing SP

books. Why?

Because that's what Srila Prabhupada wanted and it gives me the highest

bliss.

Ys. Sraddha dd

[Guest guest]

On 19 Dec 1999, Sraddha dd wrote:

 

> >

> > I grant that they are indeed preaching. But there are various levels of

> > preaching, just as there are various levels of devotion, right? Are you

> > suggesting that such women are preaching *moreso* by assuming managerial

> > roles than if they were to preach by word and example how to be chaste,

> > shy, homely servants of their children and husbands, etc.? And if so, why?

>

> Oh, I am going out and practicing prostituitini asrama by distributing SP

> books. Why?

> Because that's what Srila Prabhupada wanted and it gives me the highest

> bliss.

> Ys. Sraddha dd

 

Yes, because it is the instruction of the perfect spiritual master it brings

bliss to the heart. And all of those other instructions for women are also

given by the very same perfect spiritual master.

 

 

Hare Krsna.

 

 

--gkd

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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