excuse me?

[Guest guest]

Chandrashekhar Prabhu wrote:

 

> I think that

> some of the things he says are not at all in accord with Srila Prabhupada,

> and I also think that his quotes are taken to substantiate a very

> one-sided and unbalanced vision of Prabhupada's teachings.

 

I posted not only from Shrila Prabhupada but also very very clear quotes

from Thakura Bhaktivinoda regarding the mixing of men and women.

 

If one doesn't accept them or minimizes them and says that Prabhupada's

vision was not as per that of Thakura Bhaktivinoda, then one commits a big

offense against Prabhupada himself.

 

It is just like establishing Prabhupada as a cult figure and giving less

importance or even no regard to the instructions of the previous acharyas

whose mercy is aspired for by even Prabhupada himself. Instead we should try

to understand the instructions of the previous acharyas in relation to

Prabhupada instructions and not just completely ignore them.

 

That is what you seem to be doing. By your email, it looks you have turned a

complete blind eye to the instructions of Thakura Bhaktivinoda just because

you feel it is practically impossible to implement his instructions.

 

Instead of thanking a sannyasi for doing so much research on this subject

and presenting us with rare quotes from guru, sadhu and shastra, you seem to

be on a campaign to minimize him or accuse him publicly of deviating from

the scriptures and the acharyas. Beware! If your judgement is wrong, you run

the heavy risk of offending guru, sadhu and shastra

 

I only presented the system of men and women separation in the title itself

as a fully pure and ideal preaching system and I did not push that it has to

be implemented immediately.

 

> I would invite Maharaja to speak what he has written in the heart of

> North American society (devotees and non-devotees alike) and see what sort

> of response he would get, especially about sannyasi gurus not giving

> initiation to women and not even talking to them personally.

 

We are interested in repeating the words of the scriptures and acharyas

whether someone likes it or not. Is the shastra to be changed depending upon

the response of the practicing devotees?

 

Infact I am receiving very favourable and grateful responses about this

article from many devotees around the world including many Prabhupada

disciples.

 

> Or is it that

> the Westerners, including the Western devotees, are so much in maya that

> they would not be able to appreciate these aforementioned strictures

> intended to save the world?

 

It just may be true atleast in this case.

 

>Or maybe Prabhupada did not give us everything

> because we were too fallen, but now we can "fill in the space" and no

> longer give initiation to women...

 

Prabhupada said everything is my books. Where did he say to blindly imitate

his transcendental activities?

 

> It's ludicrous! At a time when the woman class both inside and

> outside of ISKCON is raising serious questions about our proper

> implementation of Prabhupada's ideals on this issue, Sadhu Swami is

> proposing draconian measures which Prabhupada clearly did not implement.

> Prabhupada talked to women disciples as a loving father speaks to his

> daughters.

 

I am not presenting these measures. They have been repeatedly presented by

the pioneer of the Krishna consciousness movement, Shrila Thakura

Bhaktivinoda. It is highly ludicrous therefore that you are accussing

Thakura Bhaktivinoda of proposing draconian measures. Prabhupada being a

maha-bhagavata may or may not follow the principles of varnashrama but his

followers cannot imitate him in this regard because they are not yet

transcendental to varnashram. The issues of the woman class are to be

handled as per as the instructions (not simply the actions) of guru, sadhu

and shastra and not by compromising and deviating more and more from them.

 

> Prabhupada gave them first and second initiation. But no one is

> saying anything about Sadhu Swami's statements...

 

"However, one should not imitate the behavior of an advanced

devotee or maha-bhagavata without being self-realized, for by such imitation

one will eventually become degraded." (Nectar of Instruction text-5.

Purport.)

 

Infact I am surprised that you have accused me of deviating from Prabhupada

more than once without sufficient grounds or sufficiently proving it and not

one Vaishnava is saying anything about it.

 

> Giving initiation to women is a PRINCIPLE, just like the chanting of

> 16 rounds is a principle; it is NOT a detail that can be changed according

> to time and place.(Does anyone disagree?) Hence to experimentally play

> around with it is equal to flirting with philosophical deviation.

 

This statement is totally against the scriptural quotes provided in the

previous emails regarding the sannyasi principles. Comparing it with

chanting 16 rounds is a complete deviation. You can comparing a compromise

situation for preaching to the main anga of bhakti. I am quite shocked.

 

> And meanwhile, there is an entire modern Western civilization to

> save! We will not even begin to attract its attention (what to speak of

> saving it) by being more Catholic than the pope.

 

Modern civilization can be saved when we preach as per our capacity and

strictly according to the scriptures not by diluting them or by trying to

blindly imitate the activities of a maha-bhagavata rather than understanding

and following his instructions in his books.

 

"However, one should not imitate the behavior of an advanced

devotee or maha-bhagavata without being self-realized, for by such imitation

one will eventually become degraded." (Nectar of Instruction text-5.

Purport.)

 

"Preaching without proper conduct falls within the category of karma,

mundane activity." (SBSST)

 

> Rather, meditating on our

> own belly-button will make us even more irrelevant to the modern world

> than we are today.

 

"That's all right, that is our real mission, to deliver the world by

preaching Krsna's message to others, but even higher realization, the

highest realization, is to save oneself." (Srila Prabhupada)

 

> especially when our Founder-Acarya did exactly the opposite in words and

> deeds.

 

Can you do everything what the Founder-Acharya has done? I don't understand

why you don't understand such a simple thing.

 

> For instance, what if the sannyasi-gurus who

> fell down did so because of VAISHNAVA APARADHAS, and not because of "their

> perversion of their relationship with their women disciples?"

 

We can speculate but Prabhupada himself gave the reason for the problem:

 

Once a devotee asked Shrila Prabhupada, “We have the perfect philosophy,

Krishna consciousness, and we have the perfect spiritual master, Your Divine

Grace. Everything about Krishna consciousness is perfect, yet we always seem

to have so many problems. Why?” Shrila Prabhupada replied, “Because the

brahmacaries and sannyasis associate too much with women.” (From Bhakti

Vikasa Swami’s book Brahmacarya in Krishna consciousness:)

 

SB 7.15.36: IN OUR KRSNA CONSCIOUSNESS MOVEMENT - STRICTLY ALOOF

In our Krsna consciousness movement it is advised, therefore, that the

sannyasis and brahmacaris keep *STRICTLY ALOOF* from the association of

women so that there will be no chance of their falling down again as victims

of lusty desires.

 

> Sure; let's protect the sannyasis more. But let's not change the

> principles that Srila Prabhupada established.

 

Prabhupada never established principles different from the scriptures, the

acharyas and Lord Gauranga Himself. He may have allowed some compromise for

preaching but he also told his followers to gradually aim for the highest

standard and showed that highest standard to everyone thro his instructions.

 

I am not quite interested to discuss furthur on this subject because I am

not interested in arguments and counter-arguments but rather in preaching

and elevating myself. One who cannot understand with all this shastric

evidence right in front of him can never understand even after millions of

emails. I am very surprised that one is refusing to even accept the standard

of minimizing the mixing between men and women in spiritual life as the

ideal standard. It is a different thing whether that ideal Vedic standard

can be implememted now or not but one should feel happy and enlightened just

to know about it. Instead one just tries to jump on someone who presents the

ideal standard from guru, sadhu and shastra just for everyone's knowledge

and information and criticizes him of deviating from guru, sadhu and shastra

(which is actually the biggest offense against a devotee).

 

Daso'smi, Tridandi Bhikshu Bhaktiratna Sadhu.