Sudra supposed to become a brahmana? No kidding.

[Guest guest]

At 18:34 12/03/99 +0100, COM: Mahanidhi (das) HKS (Lund - S) wrote:

 

>And that is our position, isn't it? This is about us, low

>born sudras with the pile of bad habits and qualities. And

>we are trying now to develop some brahminical qualities, aren't

>we? Why remain in the described category: "The shameless husbands

>of lowborn sudra women live exactly like animals, and therefore

>they have no good behavior, cleanliness or regulated life." ???

>I think it is all fine with the idea that we are supposed to

>become brahmanas and, finally, Vaisnavas. In some life time, at

>least, perhaps...

 

Thank you very much, Mahanidhi Prabhu, for your thoughtful answer.

Indeed we are aspiring to become Vaisnavas and in this way

we gradually develop all divine qualities.

 

>Isn't what ISKCON is all about, after all? That's what we preach

>all the time to the people, at least: "Don't miss the purpose of

>the human life! Elevate yourself".

 

We also preach sometimes "Stay high forever! Become transcendental

and blissful! Lord Caitanya rejected the idea of varnasrama!"

(just read the letter of Prtha dd, which was posted here)

 

>I find it a paradox that ISKCON devotees (who were till recently

>engaging themselves in all kind of low class and sinful activities,

>perhaps even worse than low class "vedic" sudras) to be in the

>situation to be now confused over - "it's difficult to understand

>how a sudra by guna and karma can adopt the guna and karma of a

>brahmana, as specified by Srila Prabhupada."

 

ISKCON is a land of paradoxes. Although you didn't specified,

you pointed on me here. Oh boy. First of all not "all kinds". And if you

consider the washing pots for the Deities and my other actions which

I performed trying to become a devotee during last 9 years, as

a low class and sinful activities, I don't mind.

 

And "it's difficult..." is not my question either. I said that I'm

confused because I have doubts how it will work in ISKCON. For

present, I see a dominatnt conception that varnas should be stable within

a society. This view is supported by many instructions, which recommend

one to stay in his own varna and discharge his own duties and to be

satisfied by doing so. Such system creates stable society, but it leads

to creating a caste system. Even if it will be a Daiva Varnasrama,

when varna is given by qualities and educatiion, still if varna is

given for the lifetime, it would create numerous problems and conflicts.

I consider also another idea of changable varnas, when varnas are

specified mostly by activities, which one performs. People can change

their varnas forth and back. It creates rather democratic society, but

the importance of varnas gradually disappears, and the word "prescribed

duties" becomes something vague.

 

So what intriques me is not sadhana, by which sudra develops brahmana

qualities (there are enough instructions in Prabhupada's books),

but how this change is occured on practical side in society.

I'm sorry that I didn't specified it before. I'm curious,

is there such case when one's varna was changed without being

transcendentaly situated. As far as I read the books, varnas

never changed.

 

>Just look at yourself.

 

I looked in the mirror and didn't find anything worthy of your

attention. Or you mean I should look on my true ego, the soul.

Oh, to do so I have to wait for some time.

 

>Well, as you did (are doing) it, so other sudras can also. No

>kidding.

 

Really? Wow! The only thing is that I'm not a sudra even. I'm unemployed

and freelancer.

 

Your humble servant,

bhakta Oleg.

[Guest guest]

>

> >I find it a paradox that ISKCON devotees (who were till recently engaging

> >themselves in all kind of low class and sinful activities, perhaps even

> >worse than low class "vedic" sudras) to be in the situation to be now

> >confused over - "it's difficult to understand how a sudra by guna and

> >karma can adopt the guna and karma of a brahmana, as specified by Srila

> >Prabhupada."

>

> ISKCON is a land of paradoxes. Although you didn't specified,

> you pointed on me here. Oh boy. First of all not "all kinds". And if you

> consider the washing pots for the Deities and my other actions which I

> performed trying to become a devotee during last 9 years, as a low class

> and sinful activities, I don't mind.

>

 

 

Certainly I meant it in general, that practically all of us (few

exceptions perhaps are there) who joined ISKCON on some way and

who started with practicing bhakti-yoga, were previously engaging

ourselves in different sinful activities. Acting as low

class sudras. I am not discovering America here, am I?

And if there would be need to point on somebody specifically,

then I would point on myself. But there is no need. If you

find yourself fitting in the "box", fine. Welcome.

 

The point is that we are the examples of sudras becoming brahmanas

and Vaisnavas, some less gradually, some more gradually,...

 

 

Washing pots for the Deities is devotional service, and not some

"sinful activity." Why I have to be saying this here anyway?

 

 

> And "it's difficult..." is not my question either. I said that I'm

> confused because I have doubts how it will work in ISKCON.

 

I quoted not you, but: "According to the devotees who presented this

question, it's difficult to understand how a sudra by...."

 

 

> For present, I

> see a dominatnt conception that varnas should be stable within a society.

> This view is supported by many instructions, which recommend one to stay

> in his own varna and discharge his own duties and to be satisfied by doing

> so. Such system creates stable society, but it leads to creating a caste

> system. Even if it will be a Daiva Varnasrama, when varna is given by

> qualities and educatiion, still if varna is given for the lifetime, it

> would create numerous problems and conflicts. I consider also another idea

> of changable varnas, when varnas are specified mostly by activities, which

> one performs. People can change their varnas forth and back. It creates

> rather democratic society, but the importance of varnas gradually

> disappears, and the word "prescribed duties" becomes something vague.

>

 

 

I remember an interesting (and humorous) reply by Srila

Prabhupada when he was read to the article from the news-papers.

It was in Bombay, as I recall, the morning after Srila Prabhupada

had given the class on some big pandal gathering. The lady reporter

criticized Prabhupada in her article. A devotee was reading to

Srila Prabhupada who would give his remarks. At one moment there was

something like this (from my memory, a several years old):

 

Reporter: "And Swamiji is preaching that everybody should become

a sadhu. Then who will work? Who will be producing the

food for the society if everybody becomes a sadhu

and does no work at all? Then the whole society will

break down"

 

Then Prabhupada interrupted the reading:

"Not EVERYBODY will become sadhu. That will never be.

YOU will never become a sadhu. So don't worry."

 

 

 

So, yes. There is no need to worry that there will be chaos in the

society, that varnasrama dharma will lose its importance, and so

on, if low class sudras start becoming and acting as qualified

brahmans. Will not happen anyway so lightly, unfortunately. But

some individuals might be willing and be able to make it. So, who on

the earth has the right to say, "No, your sudra varna is defined

and fixed for the life. First you must die if you want to become a

brahmana". Wouldn't this actually be the asuric varnasrama, the

cast system that does not allow qualified persons to advance?

Daiva varnasrama dharma does not say "given for the life time", does

it?

 

 

 

> So what intriques me is not sadhana, by which sudra develops brahmana

> qualities (there are enough instructions in Prabhupada's books), but how

> this change is occured on practical side in society.

> I'm sorry that I didn't specified it before. I'm curious,

> is there such case when one's varna was changed without being

> transcendentaly situated. As far as I read the books, varnas

> never changed.

 

 

As I understand, the actual point of varnasrama dharma system is

to facilitate everybody with the possibility for advancing in

the life, towards the fulfillment of the purpose of the human

life - knowing the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Brahman.

That is what actually mean to be a "brahmana", be it a "sudra"

(like Vidura) or a "ksatriya" (like Yudistira), or whomever -

one who knows Brahman. And this is what Srila Prabhupada is

emphasizing here:

 

 

<<"Thus even a born sudra is expected to become a

brahmana; that is the meaning of human life. Everyone should

improve himself. Krsna says in Bhagavad-gita (4.13), catur-varnyam

maya srstam guna-karma-vibhagasah: "According to the three modes of

material nature and the work ascribed to them, four divisions of

human society were created by Me." Even if one is by qualification

a sudra, he must try to improve his position and become a brahmana.

No one should try to check a person, no matter what his present

position is, from coming to the platform of a brahmana or a

Vaisnava. Actually, one must come to the platform of a Vaisnava.

Then he automatically becomes a brahmana.>>

 

 

Now, the vast majority perhaps will not be able to change their

particular set of gunas (that, in turn, determine the varna), from

ignorance and passion to goodness, so they may advance within that

particular varna. Less gradually.

 

 

But what is the use of such varnasrama dharma that will check

somebody who has obtained the human form of life from improving

himself, from reaching the highest platform of the life, if he

is willing and able to do it even within one life time??? I for

sure would not sign myself to such system that will tell me "Next

life time perhaps, dear. Now you got to be a low class sudra the

rest of life."

 

As far as "practical side", again, what would be the "practical"

problem in low class sudras becoming high class brahmanas??

Are we afraid of loosing "nice" Kali-yuga for Satya-yuga?

 

 

>

> >Just look at yourself.

>

> I looked in the mirror and didn't find anything worthy of your

> attention. Or you mean I should look on my true ego, the soul.

> Oh, to do so I have to wait for some time.

>

 

I mean, if you (or anybody else) happen to find yourself (or himself)

making the advancement from low class sudra platform toward brahminical

platform, and if you (or anybody else) wonder how it can be that

an another sudra may possibly become a brahmana, then the obvious

answer would be: "Just like you (or anybody else) happens to be

succeeding in this regard."

 

 

> >Well, as you did (are doing) it, so other sudras can also. No

> >kidding.

>

> Really? Wow! The only thing is that I'm not a sudra even. I'm unemployed

> and freelancer.

>

 

OK. Whatever you find that fits to you and your qualities and

activities, I don't bother. Be it.

 

 

If you are not a sudra even, and if you think that varnas are fixed

for everybody for the whole life-time, then it makes life easier and

more simple for you, doesn't it? You don't have to get mental

over wether you gonna do anything about improving yourself and becoming

a brahmana, or a sudra even.

 

 

 

 

ys mnd

[Guest guest]

> I'm curious,

> is there such case when one's varna was changed without being

> transcendentaly situated. As far as I read the books, varnas

> never changed.

 

Vishvamitra, though born as a king became a most powerful brahmana by

performing prolonged austerities and penances. Dronacarya and Asvatthama

took up the occupation of a kshatriya inspite of being brahmanas.

Parashurama though born as a brahmana acted as a kshatriya to rid the world

of demoniac kshatriyas. Yudhisthira Maharaja though being the king of the

world was often accused of acting more like a brahminical sage than a

warrior.

 

ys Anantarupa das

[Guest guest]

At 20:14 13/03/99 +0100, COM: Mahanidhi (das) HKS (Lund - S) wrote:

 

>Certainly I meant it in general, that practically all of us (few

>exceptions perhaps are there) who joined ISKCON on some way and

>who started with practicing bhakti-yoga, were previously engaging

>ourselves in different sinful activities. Acting as low

>class sudras. I am not discovering America here, am I?

>And if there would be need to point on somebody specifically,

>then I would point on myself. But there is no need. If you

>find yourself fitting in the "box", fine. Welcome.

 

))) Sorry, it's probably just misunderstanding with word "recently".

"Recently" has many meanings.

 

>The point is that we are the examples of sudras becoming brahmanas

>and Vaisnavas, some less gradually, some more gradually,...

 

Yes, since by definition we are born as sudras in Kali yuga,

so everyone has to advance... Now I get it.

 

>Washing pots for the Deities is devotional service, and not some

>"sinful activity." Why I have to be saying this here anyway?

 

I don't know.

 

>I remember an interesting (and humorous) reply by Srila

>Prabhupada when he was read to the article from the news-papers.

>It was in Bombay, as I recall, the morning after Srila Prabhupada

>had given the class on some big pandal gathering. The lady reporter

>criticized Prabhupada in her article. A devotee was reading to

>Srila Prabhupada who would give his remarks. At one moment there was

>something like this (from my memory, a several years old):

>

>Reporter: "And Swamiji is preaching that everybody should become

> a sadhu. Then who will work? Who will be producing the

> food for the society if everybody becomes a sadhu

> and does no work at all? Then the whole society will

> break down"

>

>Then Prabhupada interrupted the reading:

> "Not EVERYBODY will become sadhu. That will never be.

> YOU will never become a sadhu. So don't worry."

>

>

>

>So, yes. There is no need to worry that there will be chaos in the

>society, that varnasrama dharma will lose its importance, and so

>on, if low class sudras start becoming and acting as qualified

>brahmans. Will not happen anyway so lightly, unfortunately. But

>some individuals might be willing and be able to make it. So, who on

>the earth has the right to say, "No, your sudra varna is defined

>and fixed for the life. First you must die if you want to become a

>brahmana". Wouldn't this actually be the asuric varnasrama, the

>cast system that does not allow qualified persons to advance?

>Daiva varnasrama dharma does not say "given for the life time", does

>it?

 

We don't have a complete definition of Daiva varnasrama. We have

many Prabhupada's instructions and essays, written of devotees,

but there is no yet "Varnasrama Bible". Everyone understands

varnasrama as he wants, so we have no complete unity there.

At least here, in this conference, we discuss these topics and I hope that

gradually to mutual consent.

 

>As I understand, the actual point of varnasrama dharma system is

>to facilitate everybody with the possibility for advancing in

>the life, towards the fulfillment of the purpose of the human

>life - knowing the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Brahman.

>That is what actually mean to be a "brahmana", be it a "sudra"

>(like Vidura) or a "ksatriya" (like Yudistira), or whomever -

>one who knows Brahman. And this is what Srila Prabhupada is

>emphasizing here:

>

>

><<"Thus even a born sudra is expected to become a

> brahmana; that is the meaning of human life. Everyone should

> improve himself. Krsna says in Bhagavad-gita (4.13), catur-varnyam

> maya srstam guna-karma-vibhagasah: "According to the three modes of

>material nature and the work ascribed to them, four divisions of

> human society were created by Me." Even if one is by qualification

> a sudra, he must try to improve his position and become a brahmana.

> No one should try to check a person, no matter what his present

> position is, from coming to the platform of a brahmana or a

> Vaisnava. Actually, one must come to the platform of a Vaisnava.

> Then he automatically becomes a brahmana.>>

>

>

>Now, the vast majority perhaps will not be able to change their

>particular set of gunas (that, in turn, determine the varna), from

>ignorance and passion to goodness, so they may advance within that

>particular varna. Less gradually.

 

I agree. It's interesting what Manu-smriti advises to sudras.

It says that sudras should always try to serve brahmanas. Then

sudras will become in eyes of the Lord as good as brahmanas.

 

>But what is the use of such varnasrama dharma that will check

>somebody who has obtained the human form of life from improving

>himself, from reaching the highest platform of the life, if he

>is willing and able to do it even within one life time??? I for

>sure would not sign myself to such system that will tell me "Next

>life time perhaps, dear. Now you got to be a low class sudra the

>rest of life."

 

Such system existed before Kali yuga, and it wasn't asuric,

just circumstanses were different. Nowadays, if we want to build

Daiva varnasrama, it cannot be based on the birth basis.

And varnas cannot be fixed for lifetime or given as legacy.

I would eagerly accept a varna of sudra, if I would then get

an apportunity to advance and educate myself to another

status (vaisya, ksatriya or brahmana or qualified sudra),

where I would be happy and most productive.

 

>As far as "practical side", again, what would be the "practical"

>problem in low class sudras becoming high class brahmanas??

 

As I understood, you don't know the answer. So I.

But once varnasrama system would be implemented, and when

the varnas and asramas would be formed, there will arise this

problem, I assure you. The change of varnas is not a single

move in chess game. It requires change of life style, change

of specific duties, change of traditions, change of social

recognition. And this change cannot exist on free-jump basis:

"Ok, today I'm sudra, tomorrow I'm brahmana, then I'm vaisya

and in Friday I'm again sudra". There should exist some

social procedure, am I not right? And this change should

not be fashion, "Everyone, promote your social status! RUSH!"

Then the result will be... You may guess.

 

So I think the answer on "is it possible to change your varna

in Daiva varnasrama society" is "yes", but "how it should

be done properly in social terms?" is still missing a complete answer.

 

>Are we afraid of loosing "nice" Kali-yuga for Satya-yuga?

 

These words I don't understand. What do you mean?

 

>> I looked in the mirror and didn't find anything worthy of your

>> attention. Or you mean I should look on my true ego, the soul.

>> Oh, to do so I have to wait for some time.

>>

>I mean, if you (or anybody else) happen to find yourself (or himself)

>making the advancement from low class sudra platform toward brahminical

>platform, and if you (or anybody else) wonder how it can be that

>an another sudra may possibly become a brahmana, then the obvious

>answer would be: "Just like you (or anybody else) happens to be

>succeeding in this regard."

 

I was just testing your patience. And I was joking of course.

Please forgive my uncontrolled tongue.

 

>> Really? Wow! The only thing is that I'm not a sudra even. I'm unemployed

>> and freelancer.

>>

>

>OK. Whatever you find that fits to you and your qualities and

>activities, I don't bother. Be it.

 

The problem is that I don't want to stay unemployed and freelancer.

 

>If you are not a sudra even, and if you think that varnas are fixed

>for everybody for the whole life-time, then it makes life easier and

>more simple for you, doesn't it?

 

No, it doesn't. I want to live in varnasrama. And I don't think

that varnas should be fixed for the lifetime.

 

>You don't have to get mental over wether you gonna do anything about

>improving yourself and becoming a brahmana, or a sudra even.

 

Hey, it's the anti-varnasrama preaching! No kidding.

 

yhs bh Oleg.

[Guest guest]

At 06:28 14/03/99 +0530, Anantarupa Prabhu wrote:

>Vishvamitra, though born as a king became a most powerful brahmana by

>performing prolonged austerities and penances. Dronacarya and Asvatthama

>took up the occupation of a kshatriya inspite of being brahmanas.

>Parashurama though born as a brahmana acted as a kshatriya to rid the world

>of demoniac kshatriyas. Yudhisthira Maharaja though being the king of the

>world was often accused of acting more like a brahminical sage than a

>warrior.

 

I know all these examples, but there never was a change of varnas occured.

They were all considered on their original varnas, although they acted

in another manner. Otherwise why would Duryodhana chastise Vidura,

calling him a sudra? A change of varna wasn't recognized in society,

and seems there was no need, nor it was incouraged.

[Guest guest]

>

>

> I know all these examples, but there never was a change of varnas occured.

> They were all considered on their original varnas, although they acted

> in another manner. Otherwise why would Duryodhana chastise Vidura,

> calling him a sudra? A change of varna wasn't recognized in society,

> and seems there was no need, nor it was incouraged.

 

Please bear in mind it was a different age. Temple worship was the dharma

yuga.

Life span was 1000 years. People did take birth in higher varnas. In the Kali

Yuga none of this is true, so taking examples literally can be confusing.

You

have to look at the principles behind it.

 

In Kali, everyone is born sudra or less. Varna therefore has to be considered

by qualification, not by birth. Most devotees were born mlecchas and yavannas,

yet Srila Prabhupada gave them all the opportunity to advance.

 

It seems like this Lord Chaitanya/Ramananda Roy conversation is confusing.

Sometimes it is seen that Lord Chaitanya rejected VAD. That isn't how Srila

Prabhupada saw it.

 

"So this Krsna consciousness movement is that it is giving immediate lift to

everyone to come to the transcendental platform, brahma-bhuyaya kalpate. But

general state is varnasrama-dharma. Therefore Caitanya Mahaprabhu, when he was

discussing with Ramananda Raya, he first of all said, "What is the aim of

life?"

Caitanya Mahaprabhu (was) asking. So Ramananda Raya replied that "First of all

to

begin this varnasrama dharma." So Caitanya Mahaprabhu said, eho bahya, age kaha

ara: "Yes, this is all right. But this is external. If you know something

better,

please tell me." So in this way, step by step, Caitanya Mahaprabhu... This

varna,

asrama, dharma, karma-tyaga, karma-sannyasa, and karma-misra-bhakti,

jnana-misra-bhakti -- everything was described by Ramananda Raya, and Caitanya

Mahaprabhu not rejected. He said, "It is all right, but if you know something

better..." Then at last, when Ramananda said... (aside:) Stop it. When

Ramananda

said that, quoting one verse from Srimad-Bhagavatam, sthane sthitah sruti-gatam

tanu-van-manobhih, that it doesn't matter what you are. You remain in your

post.

Sthane sthitah sruti-gatam. Through the oral reception if you hear about Krsna,

then you become perfect. That is the statement.

 

>>> Ref. VedaBase => Srimad-Bhagavatam 7.6.1 -- Madras, January 2, 1976

 

So VAD wasn't rejected as wrong, it was only seen as partial. It is a means

not

an end. Just like we may have a car to go places. We can go to the bar, or go

to the temple. Social organisation gives us the tools to move. So everyone

should always be trying to be a brahman, trying to go to the temple. VAD has

to

do with attention, what we are doing. Being a Vaisnava has to do with

intention, why we are doing it. The intention is the most important thing,

that is consciousness. So even if we are a sudra by material qualification,

we

still are trying to be Krsna conscious. Therefore a Vaisnava is equal to a

brahman from a consciousnesss perspective, even though from a varna

perspective, the occupational duty is not that of a brahman.

 

Not that we just sit in the comfort of the car and listen to the stereo system

and drink from our cup we keep in the cupholder. No. Drive to the temple.

Even

if by attention, by material qualification, we are a brahman, if we aren't

trying to be Krsna conscious, intention, then we may not be a Vaisnava.

 

Vaisnavism is not an alternative to VAD. It is like an additional dimension.

[Guest guest]

On 13 Mar 1999, Mahanidhi das wrote:

 

>

> Washing pots for the Deities is devotional service, and not some

> "sinful activity."

 

 

Isn't it: washing the Deities pots while hearing, chanting, remembering, etc.

the Lord, is devotional service?

 

"It is not that everyone becomes purified by entering the Ganges. Everything,

spiritual and material , depends on one's mental condition." S.B. 10.10.4.

 

People "acting" like brahmanas or sannyasis through their outward appearances,

even engaged in so many seemingly directly spiritual activities, may not be

doing devotional service at all. Same with sudras, vaisyas, ksatriyas.

 

 

 

 

> As I understand, the actual point of varnasrama dharma system is

> to facilitate everybody with the possibility for advancing in

> the life, towards the fulfillment of the purpose of the human

> life - knowing the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Brahman.

> That is what actually mean to be a "brahmana", be it a "sudra"

> (like Vidura) or a "ksatriya" (like Yudistira), or whomever -

> one who knows Brahman. And this is what Srila Prabhupada is

> emphasizing here:

>

>

> <<"Thus even a born sudra is expected to become a

> brahmana; that is the meaning of human life. Everyone should

> improve himself.

 

 

 

This is a very good explanation. Thank you very much!

[Guest guest]

On 14 Mar 1999, Oleg Demtchenko wrote:

 

> So I think the answer on "is it possible to change your varna

> in Daiva varnasrama society" is "yes", but "how it should

> be done properly in social terms?" is still missing a complete answer.

 

 

"Foul means of livelihood means deviation from one's occupational duty. There

are prescribed duties for everyone, such the brahmana, ksatriya, vaishya and

sudra, but anyone of them who deviates from his prescribed duty and declares

another's duty to be his own is following a foul and improper duty." S.B.

1.14.3.

 

Room Conversation Mayapur, February 14, 1977

Prabhupada: Everywhere, wherever, Mayapura or anywhere. Question is that

here it is clearly said, sve sve karmany abhiratah. Brahmana has his duty,

ksatriya has his duty, vaisya has his duty, sudra has his duty. And if he

performs his duty nicely, then he also becomes perfect. So why artificially

he should be called a brahmana? Let them do, according to sastra, the work

of sudra, or vaisya. He'll get the perfect. Perfection is not checked. But

why artificially he should be made a brahmana or he should be made a

sannyasi and fall down and become a ludicrous? That is the point. Better let

him live in his position and become perfect. That's good. That looks very

nice. And that is possible. That is possible. Varnasramacaravata purusena

parah puman visnur aradhyate. Visnu, Lord Visnu, can be worshiped if you

perfectly follow the rules and regulation of four varnas and four asramas.

Here it is also said, sve sve karmani. You work as a perfect brahmana or a

perfect ksatriya, perfect sudra; you get perfection. The perfection is

available in your natural life. Why should artificially you become unnatural

and fall down and become ludicrous? Perfection is not checked.

Satsvarupa: But in most of our temples, the duties are either Deity worship,

brahmana...

Prabhupada: Brahmanas are available. Why you are bothering about this?

Brahmanas are also available, sudras are also available. Why sudra should be

artificially become a brahmana?

 

Satsvarupa: If in our society we say, "Srila Prabhupada wants some to be

sudra..."

Prabhupada: No, no, no. I don't want. I want everyone to become Vaisnava.

But because he's a sudra, it is not possible to bring him immediately to the

platform of brahmana, or Vaisnava. Therefore falling down. Therefore system

must be. But even if he remains a sudra, he's a Vaisnava.

[Guest guest]

> I know all these examples, but there never was a change of varnas occured.

> They were all considered on their original varnas, although they acted in

> another manner.

 

Well, then you may consider, what are we actually concerned

about. If a person both *acts* in a particular varna and possess

the *qualities* of that varna (guna and karma). What more is

really needed in order to recognize and accept that person as

such (a brahmana or a ksatriya...)? The "appropriate" birth? The

right color of the skin (black skin means sudra, "golden" means

brahmana...)?

 

We are not concerned about some "rubber-stamp" varnasrama

divisions and birth certificates. In the Bhagavad-gita, Krsna

does not really gives stress to that, but to *guna* and *karma*.

>From the point of birth Vidura was considered as sudra. But that

was *all*, and nothing more than that, that would make him a low

class sudra. And everybody accepted him as a highly qualified

brahmana. Everybody but rascals like Duryodhana.

 

 

Anyway, what is actually that "original varna" that you are speaking

about?

 

 

 

> Otherwise why would Duryodhana chastise Vidura, calling

> him a sudra?

 

Srila Prabhupada did comment on that:

 

"Saint Vidura was so honorable that his character was

looked up to by all respectable persons. But Duryodhana

was so foolish that he dared to insult Vidura. This was

due to his bad association with Sakuni, his maternal

uncle, as well as with his friend Karna, who always

encouraged Duryodhana in his nefarious acts."

 

 

We do not really accept Duryodhana's blasphemies of the

great personalities, like Vidura, as a kind of a "bookmark",

do we?

 

 

> A change of varna wasn't recognized in society, and seems

> there was no need, nor it was incouraged.

 

I feel this to be a kind of a blind street.

 

Ajamila, who was born as a brahmana, lost all his brahminical

qualities and degraded himself to the activities of the most

sinful sudra. He ceased to be a brahmana, he was not accepted, nor

recognized, nor honored as such by any sane personality. That is

what is actual. Any other point of view that would suggest otherwise,

would be superficial and of no practical meaning.

 

Vidura was born as a sudra. But by all his qualities and activities

he was a brahmana, and he was recognized and accepted as such by

all sages and great personalities. Again, that is what is actual

and what counts really. Not some Duryodhana's point of vision,

or some theoretical consideration that would be rather obstructive

than constructive for the development for both individual and

the society.

[Guest guest]

At 08:38 14/03/99 -0500, COM: Madhava Gosh (das) ACBSP (New Vrindavan - USA)

wrote:

 

>Please bear in mind it was a different age.

 

I know.

 

>Temple worship was the dharma yuga.

 

I'm sorry, Madhava Gosh Prabhu, but this I know also.

I was just saying that there was no cases of changing varnas

in previous times, and I've got that objection that

many great personalities acted not according with their

varna. But still there was no formal change of varna.

Anyway, thanks for the quote. I liked reading that.

 

>Vaisnavism is not an alternative to VAD. It is like an additional dimension.

 

Hey, it's really sounds great!!!! It can be used for headlines:

"Visitors from another world - vaisnavas, living in two dimentions-

ISKCON and VAD."

[Guest guest]

At 10:05 14/03/99 -0500, WWW: Janesvara (Dasa) ACBSP (Syracuse - USA) wrote:

 

>> So I think the answer on "is it possible to change your varna

>> in Daiva varnasrama society" is "yes", but "how it should

>> be done properly in social terms?" is still missing a complete answer.

>

>

>"Foul means of livelihood means deviation from one's occupational duty.

 

So to not deviate from our duties, we need to undergo a process

of changing varnas.

 

Or you wanted to say "Next lifetime" ?

 

Thanks for the quote. I read this room conversation before, and

I so liked it that I've translated it into Russian and read it

to my friends.

[Guest guest]

> >

> > Washing pots for the Deities is devotional service, and not some "sinful

> > activity."

>

>

> Isn't it: washing the Deities pots while hearing, chanting, remembering,

> etc. the Lord, is devotional service?

>

 

 

Simply manually serving the Lord is called "dasyam", and it is

devotional service in itself. Sravanam, kirtanam, Visnu smaranam,

and so on, are another forms of devotional service. I do not

see the reason to not consider dasyam, or any of these 9 forms,

to not be devotional service for itself, provided that it is

done with the proper motive.

 

 

> "It is not that everyone becomes purified by entering the Ganges.

> Everything, spiritual and material , depends on one's mental condition."

> S.B. 10.10.4.

>

> People "acting" like brahmanas or sannyasis through their outward

> appearances, even engaged in so many seemingly directly spiritual

> activities, may not be doing devotional service at all. Same with sudras,

> vaisyas, ksatriyas.

>

 

 

Yes. But to be in the proper mental condition while performing

one's service does not have to mean that hearing, chanting, remembering,

etc. has to be there going on simultaneously. Arjuna was concentrated

on shooting his arrows on the enemies. At that time, in the midst

of the war going on, he did not have time to perform kirtanam, listen

to classes, meditate on the Lord...

 

Washing pots may not require that concentration, though, but there

are plenty of services that one better absorbs himself in and

just forget (for the time being) all about chanting and meditating.

I remember a devotee who was supposed to get trained into a particular

service in the BBT. He thought that the Holy Name got to be always

vibrating on his lips, that he got to have his walkmen with bhajans

and classes always in his pocket... Well, he couldn't make together

the service, it was all lousy and useless, and nobody benefited from

nor was happy about his constant kirtanam that simply disturbed everybody

around.

 

 

 

 

ys mnd

[Guest guest]

The change of varnas is not a single

> move in chess game. It requires change of life style, change

> of specific duties, change of traditions, change of social

> recognition.

 

Forgive me but I think you are simplifying things a bit here. Many of these

changes will be very gradual. In my family I have seen a similar evolution.

My Uncle for instance was born into a middle class family, his father was a

fireman and his mother a housewife. His other sisters married into the lower

middle class, and live typical disfunctional western lives.

 

Early on it appears he decided he was going to rise above this, and

dedicated himself to his studies. he taught himself classical Spanish

guitar, read the classics widely and eventualy graduated from University

with honours, and is now a leading economist in the Bank of England, helping

to set economic policy around the world. He does not mix with his blood

family anymore, and has married into a very high class family. All these

changes were very gradual over many years. It is not that one has to make a

sudden change. For anyone to rise to a higher platform takes some work, and

plenty of time, so the changes that take place are gradual.

 

In society we see this all the time.

 

As Janesvara Prabhu pointed out, Srila Prabhupada was not particularly into

the changing of Varna, but that whatever varna one is naturaly sitated in,

just add Krishna Consciousness, then one transcends varna and becomes

vaisnava. Just being a brahmana is not in itself transcendental. There are

many 'so called' brahmin families in India who follow the rules and

regulations of brahminical life, but are not devotees of Lord Krishna, and

hence Vaisnavas.

 

I think that there needs to be two distinct ways in which varnasrama is

introduced. One is for our children, who have not yet been spoiled by

impersonal 'slaughterhouse' education, and the other is for those who *have*

been 'spoiled' by it, namely some of us and others who grew up without

proper training.

 

When we join the temple we do undergo a very gradual transformation.

Sometimes this can *appear* to be rapid, due to some persons who impersonate

advanced devotees, (Jayatirtha comes to mind), and of course it can be rapid

for those who realy are serious, but for most, it is very gradual. Because

our society is made up of people going through gradual change, there appears

to be a lot of disorder, devotees changing service etc. The reason for the

chaos is because the society does not actively plan for this change with a

concerted and organised varnasrama training, it just goes on at random as

devotees get dissatisfied in any particular service.

 

What we should have is a sort of 'department of employment that works to

recognise the inherent varna traits and retrain devotees to utilise them, as

well as to provide training for those who aspire to rise themselves to a

higher standard.

 

For the children we need to provide institutions that are designed to

monitor them individualy to find their varnic traits early on, then provide

them with a spiritual and material training, that fits their particular

leanings. In Mayapur gurukula they have found that you just cannot train a

child in a brahminical way, if he does not have that tendency. So far ISKCON

has not managed to create a school with teachers who are specificaly trained

to recognise character, though psychology and astrology, which is what is

needed. To do this requires a refocus of ISKCON's goals, (in my opinion).

 

And this change cannot exist on free-jump basis:

> "Ok, today I'm sudra, tomorrow I'm brahmana, then I'm vaisya

> and in Friday I'm again sudra". There should exist some

> social procedure, am I not right? And this change should

> not be fashion, "Everyone, promote your social status! RUSH!"

> Then the result will be... You may guess.

 

I cant imagine that anyone would really suggest this. Of course anything is

possible.

 

What does Srila Prabhupada require of each of his followers? That they rack

their brains to find ways of spreading Krishna Consciousness. That means

using ones intelligence and not rushing into anything. Varnasrama is such a

complex social structure, that it cannot possibly be decided in a meeting or

two. We need the entire society to refocus. Probabaly we should set up

several research centers (varnasrama colleges) to simultaneously tackle

every single detail of what it takes to implement varnashrama, and a society

that has the will to make changes, as and when significant progress has been

made to ascertain the steps required.

>

> So I think the answer on "is it possible to change your varna

> in Daiva varnasrama society" is "yes", but "how it should

> be done properly in social terms?" is still missing a complete answer.

 

The answer is to focus on Srila Prabhupadas instructions, and implement them

in such a way that the progress is constantly moinitored, and policy

adjusted to fit the practical results, by a body of people who are dedicated

and have the backing and resources to make it work.

 

This statement posted by Janesvara Prabhu, really sums it up:

 

Satsvarupa: If in our society we say, "Srila Prabhupada wants some to be

sudra..."

Prabhupada: No, no, no. I don't want. I want everyone to become Vaisnava.

But because he's a sudra, it is not possible to bring him immediately to the

platform of brahmana, or Vaisnava. Therefore falling down. Therefore system

must be. But even if he remains a sudra, he's a Vaisnava."

 

What is that system that Prabhupada states 'must be'?

 

As I have been absent from the conference for several months I have probably

stated really obvious things here that you have already worked through, and

if so, sorry.

 

YS Samba das

[Guest guest]

On 15 Mar 1999, Mahanidhi das wrote:

 

 

> Simply manually serving the Lord is called "dasyam", and it is

> devotional service in itself. Sravanam, kirtanam, Visnu smaranam,

> and so on, are another forms of devotional service. I do not

> see the reason to not consider dasyam, or any of these 9 forms,

> to not be devotional service for itself, provided that it is

> done with the proper motive.

 

 

Yes, you are right. My words may have implied something different. The

defining thing is the "motive", which seems to be more of a developed

character of a person - one of sincerity. It may not appear from the outside.

 

 

 

 

> > "It is not that everyone becomes purified by entering the Ganges.

> > Everything, spiritual and material , depends on one's mental condition."

> > S.B. 10.10.4.

 

> > People "acting" like brahmanas or sannyasis through their outward

> > appearances, even engaged in so many seemingly directly spiritual

> > activities, may not be doing devotional service at all. Same with sudras,

> > vaisyas, ksatriyas.

 

 

> Yes. But to be in the proper mental condition while performing

> one's service does not have to mean that hearing, chanting, remembering,

> etc. has to be there going on simultaneously. Arjuna was concentrated

> on shooting his arrows on the enemies. At that time, in the midst

> of the war going on, he did not have time to perform kirtanam, listen

> to classes, meditate on the Lord...

 

 

Generally, I agree, but Krsna told him to, "Always remember me in the form of

Krsna and at the same time perform your prescribed duty of fighting." (tasmat

sarvesu kalesu, etc. A nice verse.)

 

But, yes, you are right. A devotee prostitute is probably not offering her

prayers and chanting at all times during her "duties". She is a devotee in her

heart and she engages her body in her duty as given by nature. This goes for

everyone(?).

 

> Washing pots may not require that concentration, though, but there

> are plenty of services that one better absorbs himself in and

> just forget (for the time being) all about chanting and meditating.

> I remember a devotee who was supposed to get trained into a particular

> service in the BBT. He thought that the Holy Name got to be always

> vibrating on his lips, that he got to have his walkmen with bhajans

> and classes always in his pocket... Well, he couldn't make together

> the service, it was all lousy and useless, and nobody benefited from

> nor was happy about his constant kirtanam that simply disturbed everybody

> around.

 

 

I have told the story before of Devakinandana of NV who didn't chant rounds,

or attend mangalarotik and would sleep long hours. When Srila Prabhupada was

told this he said, "Maybe he's tired." He also invited him to be the cow

protector in Vrindavan. It would seem sufficient that he was just serving

Krsna's cows so nicely. Surely this would purify him gradually.

 

One interesting question is: how long will Krsna wait for us to become

devotees and return to Him? I think I heard Srila Prabhupada say that when we

return home it is like a second that has gone by and Krsna says, "Oh? you were

gone somewhere? You are welcome here always."

[Guest guest]

At 08:09 15/03/99 +0100, COM: Mahanidhi (das) HKS (Lund - S) wrote:

 

>Washing pots may not require that concentration, though, but there

>are plenty of services that one better absorbs himself in and

>just forget (for the time being) all about chanting and meditating.

>I remember a devotee who was supposed to get trained into a particular

>service in the BBT. He thought that the Holy Name got to be always

>vibrating on his lips, that he got to have his walkmen with bhajans

>and classes always in his pocket... Well, he couldn't make together

>the service, it was all lousy and useless, and nobody benefited from

>nor was happy about his constant kirtanam that simply disturbed everybody

>around.

 

First of all, it's not healthy to walk with walkman all day long.

Such constant pressure on organ of hearing can seriously damage it.

And about combining service and hearing, I think it should be

figured out individually. When I washed pots in Deity department,

I ususally turned on the stereo with lectures, so my hands were

doing the job, while my mind was immersed in lecture. I liked it,

and usually there were no problems with other devotees. But in the

case of BBT work as editor, proofreader or translator it's another

thing.

 

There was an interesting story about Prabhupada, which I heard on one

class. There was one little enterprise near NY, where devotees

were producing insense sticks. Prabhupada was very pleased

by activity, which was performed by devotees, 'cause they

always were listing tape with lectures, combining with work.

But once they stopped this practice, Srila Prabhupada disliked

it and said something like it was just a usual karmi job.

 

yhs, Oleg.

[Guest guest]

>

> I have told the story before of Devakinandana of NV who didn't chant

> rounds, or attend mangalarotik and would sleep long hours. When Srila

> Prabhupada was told this he said, "Maybe he's tired." He also invited him

> to be the cow protector in Vrindavan. It would seem sufficient that he was

> just serving Krsna's cows so nicely. Surely this would purify him

> gradually.

>

 

In the Srimad Bhagavatam there are given exemples of devotess

for each of these nine activities of devotional service, who

attained perfection by simply being fully engaged in only one

of these nine devotional activities. So, yes, even just one form

of devotional service would be sufficient. Howewer, we are never

recomended to do so, but to engaged ourselves in all of them,

becouse of our incompetence to absorb ourself in only one type

of these devotioanl activities.

 

 

> One interesting question is: how long will Krsna wait for us to become

> devotees and return to Him?

 

Some related sentences from the purport to BG 13.23:

 

"It is said that the Supersoul, who is always with the individual

soul, is the representation of the Supreme Lord."

 

"The fact is that every individual living entity is eternally

part and parcel of the Supreme Lord, and both of them are very

intimately related as friends."

 

"As long as he is conditioned by the material energy, the Supreme

Lord, as his friend, the Supersoul, stays with him just to get

him to return to the spiritual energy."

 

 

> I think I heard Srila Prabhupada say that when

> we return home it is like a second that has gone by and Krsna says, "Oh?

> you were gone somewhere? You are welcome here always."

 

Yes, I just don't have the Folio to search for the references.

 

 

 

 

ys mnd

[Guest guest]

>

> First of all, it's not healthy to walk with walkman all day long. Such

> constant pressure on organ of hearing can seriously damage it. And about

> combining service and hearing, I think it should be figured out

> individually. When I washed pots in Deity department, I ususally turned on

> the stereo with lectures, so my hands were doing the job, while my mind

> was immersed in lecture. I liked it, and usually there were no problems

> with other devotees. But in the case of BBT work as editor, proofreader or

> translator it's another thing.

 

Yes, for the type of services that do not require full concentration

it is perfectly fine to be listening to some class along, to have

one's mind absorbed in something else instead of wondering all over

the Universe. Otherwise, if the service gets lousy because of not

being concentrated on it, what is the big use of such listening.

 

But absorbing mind in Krsna's service, when it is required so, is

as good as absorbing it in Krsna's personal form or name.

 

 

At least, that's what I was thought in all those years spent in the

temple.

 

 

 

 

ys mnd

[Guest guest]

>

>

> Yes, you are right. My words may have implied something different. The

> defining thing is the "motive", which seems to be more of a developed

> character of a person - one of sincerity. It may not appear from the outside.

>

 

Attention and intention. How well we perform our duties and what those duties

are

is our attention. The motivation is intention - why we are doing them.

Attention

is VAD, intention has to do with Vaisnavism.

[Guest guest]

On 16 Mar 1999, Madhava Gosh wrote:

 

 

> Attention and intention. How well we perform our duties and what those

duties

> are

> is our attention. The motivation is intention - why we are doing them.

> Attention

> is VAD, intention has to do with Vaisnavism.

 

 

Very nice.

 

I can see from this that VAD encompasses everything so well and so clearly.

All duties/occupations/jobs, that humans find themselves engaged in are as the

result of the modes of material nature which we have acquired from our

previous activities and the modes are under the direction of the Lord.

 

We need to be attentive: to recognize our nature, accept our natural

occupation, dedicate ourselves to it because the Lord prescribed it for us and

injected into it the ability to purify us to the stage of Vaisnava.

 

We need the right intentions: to do our job for the Lord without expecting

result/fruits, i.e., false ego, followers, glorifiers, riches, etc. The

intention is that it is our constitutional position.

 

This makes VAD so nice, like Srila Prabhupada would describe it. Any varna can

become Vaisnava - which is the goal.

 

How long will it take? One second or 1 million births. That, I believe, is up

to the Lord. I don't think we can expedite. I've thought about it for years

and always come to the same conclusion - we cannot expedite. It would give no

meaning to karma - the Lord's ultimate plan to bring all jivas back home.

Krsna can expedite, if he so desires. We don't have to worry about it.

 

Ya see?! This conference EDUCATES. So nice.