Guest guest Report post Posted December 13, 1999 <<< [Text 2854574 from COM] Maybe this would be a very good issue to finally get done with, as it is so often being stamped on the backs of the women. Did or did Prabhupada not say that women are 9 times more lusty than men? If yes what does he mean? Is there some esoteric explanation? Was it in the "good" old days? I agree with the statement below that in reality it is the men who are lustiest. It is very sad that devotees preach this (and they often do) when actually it doesn´t match reality. In one sense I understand because in the media there are at least nine times more naked women than men, but I guess that is another story, cause who´s looking at the pictures? ys TM<<< This is a good question, and I find it best answered by a letter from my godsister and senior devotee, who has given me permission to use this letter whenever I want to. >>>Dear prabhus, Please accept my obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada. All glories to the devotees of the Lord. A while back, a godsister and I were discussing and the quote, "Women are nine times lustier than men " was brought up. My godsister has been some extended time in India and she discovered that the Indian/English use of the word "lust" is different than the American use of the word . In India, "lust" refers to any hankering, any hungering, even passion... as in "lust for life"... I decided to look it all up... The following definitions are taken from the American Heritage Dictionary : " lust - 1. intense or unrestrained sexual craving. 2. An overwhelming desire or craving : a lust for power 3. Obs. Pleasure ; relish. - intr.v. lust-ed, lusting, lusts. ..." " lustY adj. - ier, iest 1. Full of vigor ; robust. 2. Powerful ... 3. LustFUL l. 4. Merry, joyous - lustily adv. - lustiness n. Note here that the word "lusty" is only remotely connected to the word " lust", and not even considered in variations of usage. Based on these two differing meanings, it seems that Srila Prabhupada's statement that "women are nine times lustier " implies that "women" are nine times more energetic, full of health and strength, effective and potent. From my personal observation and life experience , this understanding rings true. On the other hand, studies on human sexuality conclude that men are far more absorbed in "lust" than women are, in general. Within the worlds societies one can observe based on numbers of males in positions of power alone, that is who "craves" power, is full of "lust" for power. This lust in males is observable in every sphere and strata of my experience. I hope this finds you all well. your truly fallen servant, Bhuvanapavani d.d.<<< That should sum it up quite well! Prabhupada's definition was different from ours! It was not about sex desire at all, but about a robust life! I like what you said about devotees preaching one ponit when reality shows us another. Prabhupada never did this. While he himself taught us about the Vedas, he never spoke as if something was going on was not going on simply because the Vedas say so, or visa versa. Of course, the Vedas say many things and some have a problem seeing the other points, whereas Prabhupada knew all points and therefore had no problem preaching about reality. It did not threaten his beliefs as I suspect it does many who can't accept anything which appears to be different from what they read in the books. In that case, I suggest they also read Prabhupada's letters and we can see that the letter above clears up MUCH about this lust issue. Of course, whether certain men (and not all) will accept it, is another story. I expect the GHQ to try to find some angle around it, as usual. But the sincere men will accept it, as it is Prabhupada's words and besides, an honest man knows about male lust. Do not misunderstand, anyone can control their senses, only that it is time men stop passing the buck and blaming the women for their personal lust. We must stay in touch with what is going on in THIS age in order to be good preachers and if nothing else, in order to get ourselves out of the material world. No one becomes disentangled from the material world if they choose to stay in illusion, even if that illusion is something they can blame on scripture. Scripture is there to enlighten us and take us out of darkness, but it is up to the reader to use it honestly. Hare Krishna. YS, Prtha dd > Here is another part of the problem. In this movement we have this > misunderstanding that woman are lustier than men. Notice, I say > *misunderstanding.* Even the nondevotees know that men want sex more than > women so if we are going to point out that women are lusty let us only do > it in the context that every human being has lust until they become a pure > devotee and that when it comes to devotee women who are employing sense > control (bhakti yoga), if men think these women are lusting after them, it > is only self flattery and often illusion. It is harder for men to control > their lusty desires than women, so lets not blatantly say *lusty women.* > when the crux of this is more often than not a weakness of men. Nondevotee > women complain that their husbands want sex more than they do. For that > matter, so do devotee women! Lets be realistic here. >> Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted December 13, 1999 <<< [Text 2854574 from COM] Maybe this would be a very good issue to finally get done with, as it is so often being stamped on the backs of the women. Did or did Prabhupada not say that women are 9 times more lusty than men? If yes what does he mean? Is there some esoteric explanation? Was it in the "good" old days? I agree with the statement below that in reality it is the men who are lustiest. It is very sad that devotees preach this (and they often do) when actually it doesn´t match reality. In one sense I understand because in the media there are at least nine times more naked women than men, but I guess that is another story, cause who´s looking at the pictures? ys TM<<< This is a good question, and I find it best answered by a letter from my godsister and senior devotee, who has given me permission to use this letter whenever I want to. >>>Dear prabhus, Please accept my obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada. All glories to the devotees of the Lord. A while back, a godsister and I were discussing and the quote, "Women are nine times lustier than men " was brought up. My godsister has been some extended time in India and she discovered that the Indian/English use of the word "lust" is different than the American use of the word . In India, "lust" refers to any hankering, any hungering, even passion... as in "lust for life"... I decided to look it all up... The following definitions are taken from the American Heritage Dictionary : " lust - 1. intense or unrestrained sexual craving. 2. An overwhelming desire or craving : a lust for power 3. Obs. Pleasure ; relish. - intr.v. lust-ed, lusting, lusts. ..." " lustY adj. - ier, iest 1. Full of vigor ; robust. 2. Powerful ... 3. LustFUL l. 4. Merry, joyous - lustily adv. - lustiness n. Note here that the word "lusty" is only remotely connected to the word " lust", and not even considered in variations of usage. Based on these two differing meanings, it seems that Srila Prabhupada's statement that "women are nine times lustier " implies that "women" are nine times more energetic, full of health and strength, effective and potent. From my personal observation and life experience , this understanding rings true. On the other hand, studies on human sexuality conclude that men are far more absorbed in "lust" than women are, in general. Within the worlds societies one can observe based on numbers of males in positions of power alone, that is who "craves" power, is full of "lust" for power. This lust in males is observable in every sphere and strata of my experience. I hope this finds you all well. your truly fallen servant, Bhuvanapavani d.d.<<< That should sum it up quite well! Prabhupada's definition was different from ours! It was not about sex desire at all, but about a robust life! I like what you said about devotees preaching one ponit when reality shows us another. Prabhupada never did this. While he himself taught us about the Vedas, he never spoke as if something was going on was not going on simply because the Vedas say so, or visa versa. Of course, the Vedas say many things and some have a problem seeing the other points, whereas Prabhupada knew all points and therefore had no problem preaching about reality. It did not threaten his beliefs as I suspect it does many who can't accept anything which appears to be different from what they read in the books. In that case, I suggest they also read Prabhupada's letters and we can see that the letter above clears up MUCH about this lust issue. Of course, whether certain men (and not all) will accept it, is another story. I expect the GHQ to try to find some angle around it, as usual. But the sincere men will accept it, as it is Prabhupada's words and besides, an honest man knows about male lust. Do not misunderstand, anyone can control their senses, only that it is time men stop passing the buck and blaming the women for their personal lust. We must stay in touch with what is going on in THIS age in order to be good preachers and if nothing else, in order to get ourselves out of the material world. No one becomes disentangled from the material world if they choose to stay in illusion, even if that illusion is something they can blame on scripture. Scripture is there to enlighten us and take us out of darkness, but it is up to the reader to use it honestly. Hare Krishna. YS, Prtha dd > Here is another part of the problem. In this movement we have this > misunderstanding that woman are lustier than men. Notice, I say > *misunderstanding.* Even the nondevotees know that men want sex more than > women so if we are going to point out that women are lusty let us only do > it in the context that every human being has lust until they become a pure > devotee and that when it comes to devotee women who are employing sense > control (bhakti yoga), if men think these women are lusting after them, it > is only self flattery and often illusion. It is harder for men to control > their lusty desires than women, so lets not blatantly say *lusty women.* > when the crux of this is more often than not a weakness of men. Nondevotee > women complain that their husbands want sex more than they do. For that > matter, so do devotee women! Lets be realistic here. >> Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted December 13, 1999 >Maybe this would be a very good issue to finally get done with, as it is so >often being stamped on the backs of the women. Did or did Prabhupada not say >that women are 9 times more lusty than men? Yes. >If yes what does he mean? I believe Prabhupada means what he says here: "It is understood that the sexual appetite of a woman is nine times greater than that of a man. That is clearly indicated here. Otherwise, Kardama Muni would have had no reason to expand himself into nine." (3.23.44) But our VAST pandits and their disciples would tell us this is another editing mistake, or something we have to change, or something that doesn't correspond to the reality we have experienced, or something we have to look to Sanskrit sources to understand and then redefine Prabhupada's explanation. Ys, Sita dd Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted December 13, 1999 > Based on these two > differing meanings, it seems that Srila Prabhupada's statement that "women > are nine times lustier " implies that "women" are nine times more > energetic, full of health and strength, effective and potent. This will only further the polarization of devotee men and women. We don't want to create more duality. The above was not the implication of Canakyas political aphorism. Women have many *lusts* and they are not all healthy and potent in regards to spiritual life. The same goes for males. Let's not disregard the basic truths of the material world because of some little prejudice by a few immature people. > This lust > in males is observable in every sphere and strata of my experience. > I hope this finds you all well. This rings of the same kind of prejudice we don't like hearing from the *other* side. It only reinforces Durga's hold on us. Lusts in men and women must be transformed into love of God. Denying that any of us have these contaminations will not help solve the problems of life. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted December 13, 1999 > Maybe this would be a very good issue to finally get done with, as it is > so often being stamped on the backs of the women. Did or did Prabhupada > not say that women are 9 times more lusty than men? If yes what does he > mean? Is there some esoteric explanation? Was it in the "good" old days? I > agree with the statement below that in reality it is the men who are > lustiest. It is very sad that devotees preach this (and they often do) > when actually it doesn´t match reality. In one sense I understand because > in the media there are at least nine times more naked women than men, but > I guess that is another story, cause who´s looking at the pictures? > ys TM I am. And damn if I can find one that is 9x lustier than me. I guess thats why I have had four sons. Lust is good for some things! Actually, I do not believe that lust, in reference to Canakyas statement which Prabhupada sometimes quoted, means only gross bodily sex. It more implies a sensuous nature which includes emotional, mental and more subtle attachments and desires. This same *lust* can be easily transformed by a women into love for the Lord because many of those same emotions are exhibited between the Lord and His pure devotees. Prabhupada also often stated that women can surrender to the Lord easier than many of the hard-hearted men because they have this natural quality of wanting loving relationships. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted December 13, 1999 > Based on these two > differing meanings, it seems that Srila Prabhupada's statement that "women > are nine times lustier " implies that "women" are nine times more > energetic, full of health and strength, effective and potent. This will only further the polarization of devotee men and women. We don't want to create more duality. The above was not the implication of Canakyas political aphorism. Women have many *lusts* and they are not all healthy and potent in regards to spiritual life. The same goes for males. Let's not disregard the basic truths of the material world because of some little prejudice by a few immature people. > This lust > in males is observable in every sphere and strata of my experience. > I hope this finds you all well. This rings of the same kind of prejudice we don't like hearing from the *other* side. It only reinforces Durga's hold on us. Lusts in men and women must be transformed into love of God. Denying that any of us have these contaminations will not help solve the problems of life. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted December 13, 1999 In a message dated 12/13/1999 10:23:12 AM Eastern Standard Time, Janesvara.ACBSP (AT) bbt (DOT) se writes: << > Based on these two > differing meanings, it seems that Srila Prabhupada's statement that "women > are nine times lustier " implies that "women" are nine times more > energetic, full of health and strength, effective and potent. >> This will only further the polarization of devotee men and women. We don't want to create more duality. << But we are SPEAKING of duality. Now, if we dont want to speak of duality, than we must speak of Krishna, or at least that we are not our bodies. This is true. However when the focus is on the difference between men and women, polarities must be discussed. >>The above was not the implication of Canakyas political aphorism.<< I don't know that we are so interested in what Canakya has to say, but what Prabhupada has to say. >> Women have many *lusts* and they are not all healthy<< No one said they were, but for so many years all we have heard about is how woman's lust is the worst and mans is not as bad. And see how defensive you get when the shoe is on the other foot? So women are just trying to present some balance, and now you have an idea of what we have had to put up with all these years. >> and potent in regards to spiritual life. The same goes for males. Let's not disregard the basic truths of the material world because of some little prejudice by a few immature people.<< This is not about being prejudicial. It is merely about presenting the other side of the coin. > This lust > in males is observable in every sphere and strata of my experience. > I hope this finds you all well. <<This rings of the same kind of prejudice we don't like hearing from the *other* side. It only reinforces Durga's hold on us.>> As much as it would be better to speak of transcendental matters, inferior and immature men (and I am NOT saying you) will continue to take advantage of scripture and therefore women if women are discouraged from ever presenting the other point of view. >>Lusts in men and women must be transformed into love of God. Denying that any of us have these contaminations will not help solve the problems of life. >> Now THIS I will agree with. YS, Prtha dd Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted December 13, 1999 In a message dated 12/13/1999 10:23:12 AM Eastern Standard Time, Janesvara.ACBSP (AT) bbt (DOT) se writes: << > Based on these two > differing meanings, it seems that Srila Prabhupada's statement that "women > are nine times lustier " implies that "women" are nine times more > energetic, full of health and strength, effective and potent. >> This will only further the polarization of devotee men and women. We don't want to create more duality. << But we are SPEAKING of duality. Now, if we dont want to speak of duality, than we must speak of Krishna, or at least that we are not our bodies. This is true. However when the focus is on the difference between men and women, polarities must be discussed. >>The above was not the implication of Canakyas political aphorism.<< I don't know that we are so interested in what Canakya has to say, but what Prabhupada has to say. >> Women have many *lusts* and they are not all healthy<< No one said they were, but for so many years all we have heard about is how woman's lust is the worst and mans is not as bad. And see how defensive you get when the shoe is on the other foot? So women are just trying to present some balance, and now you have an idea of what we have had to put up with all these years. >> and potent in regards to spiritual life. The same goes for males. Let's not disregard the basic truths of the material world because of some little prejudice by a few immature people.<< This is not about being prejudicial. It is merely about presenting the other side of the coin. > This lust > in males is observable in every sphere and strata of my experience. > I hope this finds you all well. <<This rings of the same kind of prejudice we don't like hearing from the *other* side. It only reinforces Durga's hold on us.>> As much as it would be better to speak of transcendental matters, inferior and immature men (and I am NOT saying you) will continue to take advantage of scripture and therefore women if women are discouraged from ever presenting the other point of view. >>Lusts in men and women must be transformed into love of God. Denying that any of us have these contaminations will not help solve the problems of life. >> Now THIS I will agree with. YS, Prtha dd Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted December 13, 1999 In a message dated 12/13/1999 10:23:16 AM Eastern Standard Time, Janesvara.ACBSP (AT) bbt (DOT) se writes: << I am. And damn if I can find one that is 9x lustier than me. I guess thats why I have had four sons. Lust is good for some things!<< And why would THAT be considered "good for some things?" Because you consider a boy child higher birth than a girl child? <g> >>Actually, I do not believe that lust, in reference to Canakyas statement which Prabhupada sometimes quoted, means only gross bodily sex. It more implies a sensuous nature which includes emotional, mental and more subtle attachments and desires.<< Yes, we agree here, as well as attachment to hearth and home being in that category of lust. The difficulty is that so many men do not translate it the way you have, and I have noticed those who do, over a period of years often change their mind of forget. So it has to be brought up from time to time as a symptom of kali yuga is forgetfulness. >> This same *lust* can be easily transformed by a women into love for the Lord because many of those same emotions are exhibited between the Lord and His pure devotees.< Yes. >>Prabhupada also often stated that women can surrender to the Lord easier than many of the hard-hearted men because they have this natural quality of wanting loving relationships. >> Yes, very nice point. YS, Prtha dd Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted December 13, 1999 In a message dated 12/13/1999 10:23:16 AM Eastern Standard Time, Janesvara.ACBSP (AT) bbt (DOT) se writes: << I am. And damn if I can find one that is 9x lustier than me. I guess thats why I have had four sons. Lust is good for some things!<< And why would THAT be considered "good for some things?" Because you consider a boy child higher birth than a girl child? <g> >>Actually, I do not believe that lust, in reference to Canakyas statement which Prabhupada sometimes quoted, means only gross bodily sex. It more implies a sensuous nature which includes emotional, mental and more subtle attachments and desires.<< Yes, we agree here, as well as attachment to hearth and home being in that category of lust. The difficulty is that so many men do not translate it the way you have, and I have noticed those who do, over a period of years often change their mind of forget. So it has to be brought up from time to time as a symptom of kali yuga is forgetfulness. >> This same *lust* can be easily transformed by a women into love for the Lord because many of those same emotions are exhibited between the Lord and His pure devotees.< Yes. >>Prabhupada also often stated that women can surrender to the Lord easier than many of the hard-hearted men because they have this natural quality of wanting loving relationships. >> Yes, very nice point. YS, Prtha dd Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted December 13, 1999 At 13:16 +0100 12/13/1999, COM: Trayimaya (das) HKS (Aarhus - DK) wrote: >[Text 2854574 from COM] > >Maybe this would be a very good issue to finally get done with, as it is so >often being stamped on the backs of the women. Did or did Prabhupada not say >that women are 9 times more lusty than men? If yes what does he mean? There was a long discussion on VAST about this as devotees were searching sastra for the original quotes on the topic (as you can imagine, it's definitely something students ask about when they hear it). It would save people here a lot of research if we could take advantage of some of the findings of the VAST scholars. I think I still have those texts, but I have to ask the conference organizers and/or authors for permission to re-post first. If I remember correctly, Amogha-lila and Drutakarma wrote several texts on the matter. I can also write them directly and ask them to join us on this forum for a while. Ys, Madhusudani dasi Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted December 13, 1999 At 13:16 +0100 12/13/1999, COM: Trayimaya (das) HKS (Aarhus - DK) wrote: >[Text 2854574 from COM] > >Maybe this would be a very good issue to finally get done with, as it is so >often being stamped on the backs of the women. Did or did Prabhupada not say >that women are 9 times more lusty than men? If yes what does he mean? There was a long discussion on VAST about this as devotees were searching sastra for the original quotes on the topic (as you can imagine, it's definitely something students ask about when they hear it). It would save people here a lot of research if we could take advantage of some of the findings of the VAST scholars. I think I still have those texts, but I have to ask the conference organizers and/or authors for permission to re-post first. If I remember correctly, Amogha-lila and Drutakarma wrote several texts on the matter. I can also write them directly and ask them to join us on this forum for a while. Ys, Madhusudani dasi Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted December 13, 1999 At 10:17 -0500 12/13/1999, COM: Janesvara (das) ACBSP (Syracuse - USA) wrote: > >This will only further the polarization of devotee men and women. We don't >want to create more duality. I agree completely. We're most likely all way too lusty for our own good. Why else would we be here - and what does it matter who is lustier than whom? Let's just work on trying to transform whatever lust we have into love for God instead. Ys, Madhusudani dasi Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted December 13, 1999 At 10:17 -0500 12/13/1999, COM: Janesvara (das) ACBSP (Syracuse - USA) wrote: > >This will only further the polarization of devotee men and women. We don't >want to create more duality. I agree completely. We're most likely all way too lusty for our own good. Why else would we be here - and what does it matter who is lustier than whom? Let's just work on trying to transform whatever lust we have into love for God instead. Ys, Madhusudani dasi Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted December 13, 1999 > I believe Prabhupada means what he says here: > > "It is understood that the sexual appetite of a woman is nine times > greater than that of a man. That is clearly indicated here. Otherwise, > Kardama Muni would have had no reason to expand himself into nine." > (3.23.44) > > But our VAST pandits and their disciples would tell us this is another > editing mistake, or something we have to change, or something that doesn't > correspond to the reality we have experienced, or something we have to > look to Sanskrit sources to understand and then redefine Prabhupada's > explanation. > > Ys, Sita dd Hare Krishna, Sita Devi Mataji. It is I who would like our preaching to correspond to reality, or at least a very good explanation if it doesn´t, as to the understanding. I am not a VAST pandit (whatever that is), nor do I have many disciples. Is it your experience that men are 9x less lusty than women? ys TM Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted December 13, 1999 > I believe Prabhupada means what he says here: > > "It is understood that the sexual appetite of a woman is nine times > greater than that of a man. That is clearly indicated here. Otherwise, > Kardama Muni would have had no reason to expand himself into nine." > (3.23.44) > > But our VAST pandits and their disciples would tell us this is another > editing mistake, or something we have to change, or something that doesn't > correspond to the reality we have experienced, or something we have to > look to Sanskrit sources to understand and then redefine Prabhupada's > explanation. > > Ys, Sita dd Hare Krishna, Sita Devi Mataji. It is I who would like our preaching to correspond to reality, or at least a very good explanation if it doesn´t, as to the understanding. I am not a VAST pandit (whatever that is), nor do I have many disciples. Is it your experience that men are 9x less lusty than women? ys TM Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted December 13, 1999 At 9:56 -0500 12/13/1999, Sita Devi Dasi wrote: > >But our VAST pandits and their disciples would tell us this is another >editing mistake, or something we have to change,.... No, such comments were never part of the VAST discussions on this topic. If you want to know what was said on VAST about this, please contact either Bharat-srestha or Brahmatirtha prabhus. There is no reason to make up stuff. Why agitate the assembled Vaisnavas with your speculations? Ys, Madhusudani dasi Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted December 13, 1999 At 9:56 -0500 12/13/1999, Sita Devi Dasi wrote: > >But our VAST pandits and their disciples would tell us this is another >editing mistake, or something we have to change,.... No, such comments were never part of the VAST discussions on this topic. If you want to know what was said on VAST about this, please contact either Bharat-srestha or Brahmatirtha prabhus. There is no reason to make up stuff. Why agitate the assembled Vaisnavas with your speculations? Ys, Madhusudani dasi Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted December 15, 1999 On 13 Dec 1999, Parijata2 (AT) aol (DOT) com wrote: > This is a good question, and I find it best answered by a letter from my > godsister and senior devotee, who has given me permission to use this letter > whenever I want to. > > >>>Dear prabhus, Please accept my obeisances. All glories to Srila > Prabhupada. All glories to the devotees of the Lord. > A while back, a godsister and I were discussing and the quote, "Women are > nine times lustier than men " was brought up. My godsister has been some > extended time in India and she discovered that the Indian/English use of the > word "lust" is different than the American use of the word . The uses of the word may be different, but Prabhupada clearly states the words "sexual appetite" in relation the the word "lust" in his purport. Your servant, Tulasi-priya d Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted December 15, 1999 On 13 Dec 1999, Parijata2 (AT) aol (DOT) com wrote: > This is a good question, and I find it best answered by a letter from my > godsister and senior devotee, who has given me permission to use this letter > whenever I want to. > > >>>Dear prabhus, Please accept my obeisances. All glories to Srila > Prabhupada. All glories to the devotees of the Lord. > A while back, a godsister and I were discussing and the quote, "Women are > nine times lustier than men " was brought up. My godsister has been some > extended time in India and she discovered that the Indian/English use of the > word "lust" is different than the American use of the word . The uses of the word may be different, but Prabhupada clearly states the words "sexual appetite" in relation the the word "lust" in his purport. Your servant, Tulasi-priya d Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
