Call Off The Dogs!

[Guest guest]

In text 2219733 Janesvara dasa wrote:

 

> It's self moderated I believe because the former moderator is getting an

> operation to change himself into a woman the last I heard. Now there's some

> juicy discussion material for the dogs! Ruff!

 

Ruff Ruff, I am listening.

 

YS RK Mex

[Guest guest]

>

>

> Madhava Ghosh, such innunedo as you have not so subtly expressed above is

> unacceptable on this conference. Please refrain from dragging this discussion

> any lower than it has already gone.

 

I believe it only qualifies as innuendo if it is subtle , which it wasn't

intended

to be.

 

>

>

> I think you owe us and Virender an apology (as much as he may be an irritant

> in this whole polemic). You only reveal your own lower nature (and varna?)

by

> resorting to such vulgar responses.

>

> Srila dasa

 

Yes, lower than the lowest. I apologise for not wrapping my point in the

flowery

words of the Vedas.

 

The inability of a jivatma to distinguish between the aggregate of his upper 7

gates and the rearmost of his lower gates constitutes a greater dilema than

the

false conception that a society can thrive without competent leadership by

example.

[Guest guest]

At 17:41 -0800 4/8/99, WWW: Janesvara (Dasa) ACBSP (Syracuse - USA) wrote:

 

 

>It's self moderated I believe because the former moderator is getting an

>operation to change himself into a woman the last I heard. Now there's some

>juicy discussion material for the dogs! Ruff!

 

While it is true that the (former?) organizer of this conference has not

been actively participating in this discussion, I don't think it's fair to

make such a comment. Living in a body which does not match one's own

perceived gender is not a joke. It is miserable. The level of pain

someone must be experiencing before deciding to go ahead and transition is

intense, (especially as an ISKCON member!). That kind of decision is never

lightly taken and by the time someone has been approved by physicians,

psychologists etc. it is very serious. Let's not make fun or light of

someone's pain. If she had been born with a defective leg, I'm sure no one

here would have said "it's just the body, that's how Krsna meant for you to

be, it's your karma, live with it". Yet, if someone is born with

mismatched internal gender and external genitalia, devotees seem to feel at

liberty to make such comments (I'm not just talking about you, Janesvara).

 

Let's not discourage other devotees. It's so hard to be a devotee anyway,

we don't need to make it any harder. Some compassion would be nice and the

assurance that we will welcome Prsni dasi into our association as a devotee

to serve guru and Krsna, just like we did Prsni dasa would be wonderful.

 

Thank you.

 

Ys,

Madhusudani dasi

[Guest guest]

> While it is true that the (former?) organizer of this conference has not

> been actively participating in this discussion, I don't think it's fair to

> make such a comment. Living in a body which does not match one's own

> perceived gender is not a joke. It is miserable. The level of pain

> someone must be experiencing before deciding to go ahead and transition is

> intense, (especially as an ISKCON member!). That kind of decision is

> never lightly taken and by the time someone has been approved by

> physicians, psychologists etc. it is very serious. Let's not make fun or

> light of someone's pain. If she had been born with a defective leg, I'm

> sure no one here would have said "it's just the body, that's how Krsna

> meant for you to be, it's your karma, live with it". Yet, if someone is

> born with mismatched internal gender and external genitalia, devotees seem

> to feel at liberty to make such comments (I'm not just talking about you,

> Janesvara).

>

> Let's not discourage other devotees. It's so hard to be a devotee anyway,

> we don't need to make it any harder. Some compassion would be nice and the

> assurance that we will welcome Prsni dasi into our association as a

> devotee to serve guru and Krsna, just like we did Prsni dasa would be

> wonderful.

 

To change gender for a devotee, is not peanuts. I will think two times

before I go out an redicule such a move, because it is obvious that it

happened after a lot of forethought, otherwise how would someone in ISKCON

do such a thing? (It does not make one popular in ISKCON, that is for sure,

so I guess it was not exectly a olitical move).

 

To me it is hard to relate to that a devotee changes gender, that I have to

admit, but I will be careful to judge Prisni for this.

[Guest guest]

At 22:48 -0800 4/8/99, COM: Jatukarnya (das) CI (Cintamani Intl, Oslo - N)

wrote:

 

>To change gender for a devotee, is not peanuts. I will think two times

>before I go out an redicule such a move, because it is obvious that it

>happened after a lot of forethought, otherwise how would someone in ISKCON

>do such a thing? (It does not make one popular in ISKCON, that is for sure,

>so I guess it was not exectly a political move).

 

Exactly, especially if we consider the direction of the change

(male->female, not female->male). No one changes to a position where she

will be treated as having half a brain, have less access to positions, have

to stand behind the men in some temples etc., simply on a whim.

 

>To me it is hard to relate to that a devotee changes gender, that I have to

>admit, but I will be careful to judge Prisni for this.

 

That is a great attitude. I don't think we can expect that everyone will

understand or approve of *any* of our actions, but as long as we're not

hurting other devotees, we can at least ask for their tolerance and not to

be judged.

 

We need to spend more time and energy encouraging each other in devotional

service. If we don't - who will?

 

Ys,

Madhusudani dasi

[Guest guest]

On 08 Apr 1999, Madhusudani Radha wrote:

 

> At 17:41 -0800 4/8/99, WWW: Janesvara (Dasa) ACBSP (Syracuse - USA) wrote:

>

>

> >It's self moderated I believe because the former moderator is getting an

> >operation to change himself into a woman the last I heard. Now there's some

> >juicy discussion material for the dogs! Ruff!

>

> While it is true that the (former?) organizer of this conference has not

> been actively participating in this discussion, I don't think it's fair to

> make such a comment. Living in a body which does not match one's own

> perceived gender is not a joke. It is miserable.

 

 

With all due respect, I think you are reading more into my statement than what

I actually said. Although my reputation probably preceeds me (darn!) I did not

say anything directly against Prsni ????.

 

What is really the sad part is that because ISKCON's so-called "leaders" are

such a pitiful example of helpful, friendly, exemplary, secure, truthful,

straightforward, intelligent followers of the Vedic cultural paradigm, people

like this Prsni ???? has had no(or perhaps does not accept) good counseling

from his own "family" of devotee friends. Worse, when some see that good Vedic

counseling is unavailable due to abject failure by "leaders" they resort to

Western "civilized" methods and psychology which have done a LOT for America

(heavy sarcasm intended) which is completely messed up sexually, mentally and

physically. Almost everyone I work with on a daily basis for over 20 years are

usually preoccupied with sex and money while ingesting the most unhealthful

foods and drugs all day starting with caffeine first thing in the morning,

nicotine, alchohol, etc. Western "civilization" offers very little proof of

success for developing human culture towards God consciousness aside from some

pious and charitable Christians.

 

I have devotee friends that I have kept close to heart for 25 years, though

separated by hundreds of miles, who I can rely upon to counsel me when I

conceive of some abstract or radical course which, in my better consciousness,

I would not normally pursue. I have at times decided that drinking was an easy

way to deal with my problems. I have at times indulged my passions with women

who are employed in the worlds oldest occupation in hopes that I might satisfy

my mind. In every case, my devotee Brothers and Sisters, my best friends, TALK

to me with love and friendship along with a very healthy dose of, "Janesh,

what the hell are you doing???". Stubborn I MAY [;-)] be, but because in my

heart I trust these people, I talk myself out of going down a course of

self-destruction or mental speculation.

 

Artificially changing one's body from male to female because of some contrived

speculative Western psychology will not help this man in any way except

perhaps the presumed desired pursuit of a different kind of sexual

satisfaction. I am not against that nor his desire to stay in touch with his

spiritual life, but I am not for calling it a sensible "cure". It will only

delay the inevitable realization that this material world sucks and to try to

artificially change it constantly, like America is addicted to, will not

succeed. Get real.

 

Prsni Prabhu needed a family of caring, sober, friendly, intelligent, honest -

PEOPLE DEVOTEES, to discuss his feelings with. ISKCON does not provide hardly

any of this. Never did.

 

Before I condemn this devotee to a hellish life of social stigma, ridicule,

mental agony and guilt I would have much preferred a chance to engage him

rightfully in varnasrama-dharma.

 

What about the feelings of his wife? Is there to be some sensitivity there?

 

I am sure Prsni ???? is a nice person and can definitely be a bhakta in any

condition. No question. But he has not been afforded good Vedic counseling

from honest non-pretentious people, otherwise he would not make this unwise

and unfortunate decision. I'll be there to say Hari bol! to him or help him

whether he has a vagina or a penis - that is really not my concern.

 

Bhakta Janesvara dasa

[Guest guest]

> Yet, if someone is born with

> mismatched internal gender and external genitalia, devotees seem to feel at

liberty to make such comments (I'm not just talking about you, Janesvara).

>

 

 

 

And I thought figuring out my varna was a mind-blower. Seems we might think it

a good idea to get a moderator who isn't going through such a dramatic

transition.

[Guest guest]

>

> Artificially changing one's body from male to female because of some

contrived

> speculative Western psychology will not help this man in any way except

> perhaps the presumed desired pursuit of a different kind of sexual

> satisfaction. I am not against that nor his desire to stay in touch with his

> spiritual life, but I am not for calling it a sensible "cure".

 

 

On a more serious note from me, I am not sure what difference changing one's

physical gender makes, really. We all have our 'male' and 'female' sides.

After all we've all experienced both 'male' and 'female' countless billions of

times. (But what about earthworms, which they say are both male and female at

the same time?)

 

I have heard there are many sensitive men, and then there are many macho

females (like Xena, I suppose). It kind of seems to me like an overly drastic

approach regarding one's dealing with one's inner emotional life.

 

Seems like it might be preferable to hang tough for a few more decades and

then cash in your chips for some more attractive bodily designation, possibly

on a higher realm of existance. That might seem to be the easier, more natural

method.

 

In any event, I hope Prsna has good medical coverage and that it all works out

for the best. I've heard rumors from the bramancaris that women can't chant

Hare Krsna, too!

[Guest guest]

>

> In any event, I hope Prsna has good medical coverage and that it all works

out for the best. I've heard rumors from the bramancaris that women can't

chant Hare Krsna, too!

>

 

 

That was supposed to read 'woman CAN chant Hare Krsna, too'

 

In any event, we might consider it worthwhile getting settled with a new

moderator before the whole conference gets labled as being over the edge. It

would seem someone should try to arrange things with Raktambara, like that.

[Guest guest]

> >

> >

> > Madhava Ghosh, such innunedo as you have not so subtly expressed above

> > is unacceptable on this conference. Please refrain from dragging this

> > discussion any lower than it has already gone.

>

> I believe it only qualifies as innuendo if it is subtle , which it wasn't

> intended to be.

 

Come on Srila Prabhu, it was a pun. No one was specificaly mentioned. I

agree with Janesvara prabhu that one of the refreshing things about this

conference is the ability of the devotees on it to be humorous, and not on

some kind of pedestal.

 

Varnasrama is for all. An essential part is to put people in their place. If

someone with a very neophyte understanding, continues to innapropriately

admonish seniors, with misunderstood philosophy, it is up to the elders to

admonish him. There are no traditional precedents for doing this in

cyberspace, but in the flesh and blood world this would have to be done for

a persons own sake. He has continued to be defiant, and unhumble (?) despite

the fact that many of his seniors have berated him for it.

 

I would imagine that in vedic society he would have been more severely

reprimanded for such breach of etiquette (a good yell, or some other 'up

close and personal' directive).

 

We are brought up in western culture, so some of our innuendo (or whatever)

may be a little gross. What can we do! I think it is far worse to directly

criticise an older devotee, and brandish misunderstood philosophy, than to

indirectly poo poo a foolish new person, who cant take a hint. (is poo poo

allowed?)

 

In real life, an admonition of a persons foolish contribution, to a senior

discussion, could have brought about a lot of embarrasing glances, and could

be a good deal more humiliating. A few comments on com, could be perceived

as far less effective, and therefore maybe they need to be stronger?

 

It is very difficult to communicate fully on this medium, and maybe Virender

is feeling bad about the response he is getting. Personaly I was not at all

bothered about his attack on my contribution, but rather I was amused that

he should be so bold, without being possessed of more wisdom in his

assumptions. He really shows his lack of mature understanding up, and may be

somewhat embarrased to read his own texts ten years down the line.

 

As Janesvara mentioned (regarding himself) I was also possesed of similar

opinions regarding ISKCONS 'infallable' leadership, 15 or so years ago, but

slowly, slowly, the painful truth was revealed. It is a fact that we cannot

*unquestioningly* rely on others to decide on ultimate policy for this

movement, unless we are 100% convinced that those directives come from a

person who is completely transcendental to duality. There should be no doubt

whatsoever. Such people, such as Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Maharaja,

and our own Srila Prabhupada, are perceived as such by all serious and

sensitive men. Such people can be trusted. Others although they may be

possesed of goodwill, should be prepared to accept the criticism or

suggestions from other seniors. Until we actualy have an INDEPENDANT

brahminical class (and hence a proper varnasrama society), we can only

expect more of these problems

 

A humble person, especialy a person with only a few short years of

association under his belt, should be prepared to stand down when faced with

almost unanimous dissaproval of his conduct. Instead of blustering on

accusing other more senior people of misunderstanding.

 

In proper physical association, a person would understand that those that

admonish him have his best welfare at heart, but he needs to understand when

it is time to halt the argument, and listen and try to learn from the other

perspectives.

 

The trouble with cyberspace is that these personal dealings are absent, and

so stark text can often be misread.

 

I apologise to Virender if he feels we have been too harsh, but it would

also be good to hear a little humility from his side.

 

YS Samba das

[Guest guest]

On 08 Apr 1999, Madhusudani Radha wrote:

> Janesvara wrote:

> >It's self moderated I believe because the former moderator is getting an

> >operation to change himself into a woman the last I heard. Now there's some

> >juicy discussion material for the dogs! Ruff!

 

Hmmm -- eunuchs and transvestites are definitely an acceptable (and,

arguably, necessary) element of any functioning varNAzrama society,

but it's hard to understand the benefit of such an operation.

 

> Living in a body which does not match one's own

> perceived gender is not a joke. It is miserable.

 

Living in a body is miserable, period. That's the nature

of the material world. Why take matters into one's own hands?

At most, one will be in the mismatched body for 75 or 80 years.

It may seem like a long time at first, but it's just a blip in

_real_ time. Just as depression shouldn't cause one to commit

suicide, neither should transgenderism cause one to undergo

bodily mutilation.

 

Of course, this all makes sense only if the transgendered person

really believes "dehino 'smin yathA dehe..." If one doesn't

accept it, then patience makes no sense and the Ginsu knife is

the way to go. If one does accept it, then that person might just

consider going transvestite instead of taking such a drastic step.

 

As a side note, I know many white-skinned and black-skinned American

devotees who have taken on many Indian cultural aspects, and

identify more with the East rather than the West. Nevertheless,

such transracial people leave their skin color and physical

features unaltered -- nobody repigments their skin brown or

changes his or her nose and cheekbones to look more Eastern.

I don't see how this is substantially different from the

problems faced by the transgendered.

 

> Let's not discourage other devotees.

 

Let's never discourage them from service or association with

devotees, but let's discourage them from doing such things. Let's

encourage them to show some patience. Devotees are supposed to set

an example for society -- yad yad acarati zreSThas -- so, let's hope

that that example is about the qualities of patience, honesty,

study, cleanliness, charity, etc.

 

> It's so hard to be a devotee anyway,

> we don't need to make it any harder. Some compassion would be nice and the

> assurance that we will welcome Prsni dasi into our association as a devotee

> to serve guru and Krsna, just like we did Prsni[garbha] dasa would be

wonderful.

 

Incidentally, I don't think anybody has the right to change

his or her devotee name anymore than one can give oneself

such a name in the first place. Thus, this individual should be

called "Prsnigarbha" regardless of his final gender. Of course,

"dAsa" or "dAsI" is an improper noun, not a name, so it would have

to change appropriately.

 

Regards,

 

Vijay S. Pai

[Guest guest]

> >Incidentally, I don't think anybody has the right to change

> >his or her devotee name anymore than one can give oneself

> >such a name in the first place. Thus, this individual should be

> >called "Prsnigarbha" regardless of his final gender. Of course,

> >"dAsa" or "dAsI" is an improper noun, not a name, so it would have

> >to change appropriately.

 

> Prisni was always his and her nickname.

 

Fine, as long as it's understood to be a reference to Prsnigarbha (the

name of an incarnation of Vishnu) and not just Prsni (the name of His

mother). If it is understood to be the latter, then it's an

unacceptable self-modification of a received name.

 

Yours,

 

Vijay

[Guest guest]

>Incidentally, I don't think anybody has the right to change

>his or her devotee name anymore than one can give oneself

>such a name in the first place. Thus, this individual should be

>called "Prsnigarbha" regardless of his final gender. Of course,

>"dAsa" or "dAsI" is an improper noun, not a name, so it would have

>to change appropriately.

 

Prisni was always his and her nickname. Just like most of my friends call

me Madhu.

[Guest guest]

> > Living in a body which does not match one's own

> > perceived gender is not a joke. It is miserable.

>

> Living in a body is miserable, period. That's the nature

> of the material world. Why take matters into one's own hands?

> At most, one will be in the mismatched body for 75 or 80 years.

> It may seem like a long time at first, but it's just a blip in

> _real_ time. Just as depression shouldn't cause one to commit

> suicide, neither should transgenderism cause one to undergo

> bodily mutilation.

 

So speaks a person who does not have a clue of what he is

talking about. If something happened to your body, would not

you let the doctors "mutilate" you to save your life?

If you got a chronical disease, would you not take the necessary

medicine to cure you of your disease?

 

As for as mutilation goes, if you would accept an obvious woman

in the shower room, no problem. It is not me who is risking getting

lusty feelings. And don't underestimate the material bodies in the

field of such feelings. Many men have been lusty after nice looking

women, to later find out they were born as men. Furthermore, you

should know that sex operations existed even in Vedic times. "third"

genered persons, born as men, got their genitals "operated" away.

So explain to me the difference doing it the "Vedic" way, or in

a nice sterile surgical theatre?

 

As far as malehood goes, if you would accept an obvious

woman getting male privileges, I just thank you. But it would be a

revolution in society coming from the genetic ladies. They would

claim the same privileges.

 

If someone could accept what he is saying himself, I would belive

him. If you could act like a babaji, sitting under a tree and just chant

hare krsna, for the rest of your life, I would not object. But if you have

the slightest desire to do anything in material nature, I question

how you can have the guts to deny another person the same

privileges? Because you had a more elevated birth, or what?

 

 

> Of course, this all makes sense only if the transgendered person

> really believes "dehino 'smin yathA dehe..." If one doesn't

> accept it, then patience makes no sense and the Ginsu knife is

> the way to go. If one does accept it, then that person might just

> consider going transvestite instead of taking such a drastic step.

 

Transsexual and transvestite are two completely different things,

as different as a devotee and a theatre actor playing the role of

a devotee. A transsexual is a person belonging to a gender opposite

to the one if the person's body. That is accepted by practically

everyone who knows anything about it. A transvestite is a person

belonging to one sex and gender, but sometimes dressing up as

the opposite sex/gender. That is the meaning of the word, by the way.

 

> As a side note, I know many white-skinned and black-skinned American

> devotees who have taken on many Indian cultural aspects, and identify more

> with the East rather than the West. Nevertheless,

> such transracial people leave their skin color and physical

> features unaltered -- nobody repigments their skin brown or

> changes his or her nose and cheekbones to look more Eastern.

> I don't see how this is substantially different from the

> problems faced by the transgendered.

 

If you don't understand, why don't you research, ask people, before

you make statements about it? The movement needs devotees who

are well researched, truthful and do not make statements which later

can be proved faulty. Vaisnavas should have exemplar conduct.

 

You might say this is nothing personal, but considering the number

of transsexual people in our movement, I take it very personally.

 

> Let's never discourage them from service or association with

> devotees, but let's discourage them from doing such things. Let's

> encourage them to show some patience. Devotees are supposed to set an

> example for society -- yad yad acarati zreSThas -- so, let's hope that

> that example is about the qualities of patience, honesty, study,

> cleanliness, charity, etc.

 

Suddenly I am "them" that should not be discouraged. Bold words,

and I hope for your own sake that you are very sure you are right....

 

> Incidentally, I don't think anybody has the right to change

> his or her devotee name anymore than one can give oneself

> such a name in the first place. Thus, this individual should be

> called "Prsnigarbha" regardless of his final gender. Of course,

> "dAsa" or "dAsI" is an improper noun, not a name, so it would have to

> change appropriately.

 

You can call me Prsnigarbha dasi, I don't mind. Prabhupada has

reportedly a devotee of that name, so there is a precedent.

 

But I hope you have some divine knowledge about my initiation

ceremony, and the opinion about the spiritual master holding it

and of the attending demigods and so on. Were you attending?

 

The plain truth is that devotees always have been calling me

"Prisni", so the name is actually given by the assembled vaisnavas.

That is enough for me, and I gladly accept the name Vaisnavas give me.

What do you think Krsna would say?

 

your servant Prisni dasi

[Guest guest]

> > Living in a body which does not match one's own

> > perceived gender is not a joke. It is miserable.

>

> Living in a body is miserable, period. That's the nature

> of the material world. Why take matters into one's own hands?

> At most, one will be in the mismatched body for 75 or 80 years.

> It may seem like a long time at first, but it's just a blip in

> _real_ time. Just as depression shouldn't cause one to commit

> suicide, neither should transgenderism cause one to undergo

> bodily mutilation.

 

So speaks a person who does not have a clue of what he is

talking about. If something happened to your body, would not

you let the doctors "mutilate" you to save your life?

If you got a chronical disease, would you not take the necessary

medicine to cure you of your disease?

 

As for as mutilation goes, if you would accept an obvious woman

in the shower room, no problem. It is not me who is risking getting

lusty feelings. And don't underestimate the material bodies in the

field of such feelings. Many men have been lusty after nice looking

women, to later find out they were born as men. Furthermore, you

should know that sex operations existed even in Vedic times. "third"

genered persons, born as men, got their genitals "operated" away.

So explain to me the difference doing it the "Vedic" way, or in

a nice sterile surgical theatre?

 

As far as malehood goes, if you would accept an obvious

woman getting male privileges, I just thank you. But it would be a

revolution in society coming from the genetic ladies. They would

claim the same privileges.

 

If someone could accept what he is saying himself, I would belive

him. If you could act like a babaji, sitting under a tree and just chant

hare krsna, for the rest of your life, I would not object. But if you have

the slightest desire to do anything in material nature, I question

how you can have the guts to deny another person the same

privileges? Because you had a more elevated birth, or what?

 

 

> Of course, this all makes sense only if the transgendered person

> really believes "dehino 'smin yathA dehe..." If one doesn't

> accept it, then patience makes no sense and the Ginsu knife is

> the way to go. If one does accept it, then that person might just

> consider going transvestite instead of taking such a drastic step.

 

Transsexual and transvestite are two completely different things,

as different as a devotee and a theatre actor playing the role of

a devotee. A transsexual is a person belonging to a gender opposite

to the one if the person's body. That is accepted by practically

everyone who knows anything about it. A transvestite is a person

belonging to one sex and gender, but sometimes dressing up as

the opposite sex/gender. That is the meaning of the word, by the way.

 

> As a side note, I know many white-skinned and black-skinned American

> devotees who have taken on many Indian cultural aspects, and identify more

> with the East rather than the West. Nevertheless,

> such transracial people leave their skin color and physical

> features unaltered -- nobody repigments their skin brown or

> changes his or her nose and cheekbones to look more Eastern.

> I don't see how this is substantially different from the

> problems faced by the transgendered.

 

If you don't understand, why don't you research, ask people, before

you make statements about it? The movement needs devotees who

are well researched, truthful and do not make statements which later

can be proved faulty. Vaisnavas should have exemplar conduct.

 

You might say this is nothing personal, but considering the number

of transsexual people in our movement, I take it very personally.

 

> Let's never discourage them from service or association with

> devotees, but let's discourage them from doing such things. Let's

> encourage them to show some patience. Devotees are supposed to set an

> example for society -- yad yad acarati zreSThas -- so, let's hope that

> that example is about the qualities of patience, honesty, study,

> cleanliness, charity, etc.

 

Suddenly I am "them" that should not be discouraged. Bold words,

and I hope for your own sake that you are very sure you are right....

 

> Incidentally, I don't think anybody has the right to change

> his or her devotee name anymore than one can give oneself

> such a name in the first place. Thus, this individual should be

> called "Prsnigarbha" regardless of his final gender. Of course,

> "dAsa" or "dAsI" is an improper noun, not a name, so it would have to

> change appropriately.

 

You can call me Prsnigarbha dasi, I don't mind. Prabhupada has

reportedly a devotee of that name, so there is a precedent.

 

But I hope you have some divine knowledge about my initiation

ceremony, and the opinion about the spiritual master holding it

and of the attending demigods and so on. Were you attending?

 

The plain truth is that devotees always have been calling me

"Prisni", so the name is actually given by the assembled vaisnavas.

That is enough for me, and I gladly accept the name Vaisnavas give me.

What do you think Krsna would say?

 

your servant Prisni dasi

[Guest guest]

At 7:25 -0800 4/14/99, COM: Prsnigarbha (das) HKS (Goteborg - S) wrote:

 

 

>So speaks a person who does not have a clue of what he is

>talking about. If something happened to your body, would not

>you let the doctors "mutilate" you to save your life?

>If you got a chronical disease, would you not take the necessary

>medicine to cure you of your disease?

 

Exactly. Or in an even more analogous case: How about if your child was

born with a clubfoot? Or with a hip deformity? Or with his/her palate and

lip split into two? Or with a hole in the heart muscle?

 

Would you say: "Sorry doctor, but this is how God made my child. It's

his/her karma. Living in a body is miserable, period. That's the nature of

the material world. At most, my child may have to live with this deformity

for 75-80 years. It may seem like a long time at first, but it's just a

blip in *real* time. So we have decided against surgery and the 'Ginsu'

knife." ???

 

Please think carefully before you answer this.

 

>Transsexual and transvestite are two completely different things,

 

Just wanted to affirm this. As Prisni said, a transsexual's external body

does not match the internal perception of his/her gender. Transsexuals

typically report that they feel "trapped in the wrong body" and it's

therefore known as a "gender identity disorder." Transvestites, on the

other hand, simply dress as the opposite sex to facilitate sexual arousal.

Transvestic fetishism is one of the "paraphilias". Other paraphilias

include voyeurism, other fetishisms (shoes, underwear are common),

exhibitionism etc.

 

Ys,

Madhusudani dasi

[Guest guest]

>

> Just wanted to affirm this. As Prisni said, a transsexual's external body

does not match the internal perception of his/her gender.

>

 

 

Okay, I am politically insensitive.

 

What difference does it make what gender one identifies with? At this stage of

the game we don't have a clue what our eternal identity could be. And if we

did, our temporary material dress does not need to adversely effect our

eternal relationship with Krsna.

 

There is a big difference between having clubfoot and wanting to trade in

one's reproductive organs. If Prsni has his/her heart set on it, well, that's

a decision only he/she can make. It apears to me like an increadibly involving

endeavor that might tend to invite all kinds of unwelcome distraction.

 

While I can't claim to be experiencing boundless bliss as a man, being a women

in conditional life ain't no bundle of joy either. Either way, I don't see the

lasting value.

 

For instance, I think I am from Boston but I am not living in Boston.

Fortunately by God's Grace I have gotten a grip on that one -- to some degree.

[Guest guest]

On 14 Apr 1999, Madhusudani Radha wrote:

> Exactly. Or in an even more analogous case: How about if your child was

> born with a clubfoot? Or with a hip deformity? Or with his/her palate and

> lip split into two? Or with a hole in the heart muscle?

 

Actually, this is a no-brainer. Srila Prabhupada usually said

something like "I hope this finds you in good health..." in his

letters. All of the above are _health_ issues, and poor health

obstructs one from doing devotional service to Krishna. Thus, one

should get one's health fixed in order to do devotional service.

 

What devotional service is enabled by changing one's gender,

though? You'll have to do better than "Oh, it makes a person

feel better," as marijuana and vodka can also do that, but are

nevertheless unacceptable.

 

Regards,

 

Vijay

[Guest guest]

At 9:21 -0800 4/15/99, WWW: Sthita-dhi-muni (Dasa) SDG (Alachua FL - USA)

wrote:

 

 

>What difference does it make what gender one identifies with? At this stage of

>the game we don't have a clue what our eternal identity could be. And if we

>did, our temporary material dress does not need to adversely effect our

>eternal relationship with Krsna.

 

uh-oh. Don't spend too much time wondering, or you may have to find out for

yourself. :-(

 

I've heard the same description so many times, I've simply accepted that

those who are going through this are the experts. I don't feel like I need

to really understand first hand. Got enough of my own issues to work on.

Better to accept others as experts on their own life and to assume they're

making informed decisions for themselves (unless this involves hurting

others of course). I'd certainly like for them to make the same assumptions

about me. Some of my decisions may be less than ideal, but they're *my*

decisions and I have to live with the consequences.

 

Ys,

Madhusudani dasi

[Guest guest]

At 9:39 -0800 4/15/99, WWW: Vijay Pai (Houston TX - USA) wrote:

 

>On 14 Apr 1999, Madhusudani Radha wrote:

>> Exactly. Or in an even more analogous case: How about if your child was

>> born with a clubfoot? Or with a hip deformity? Or with his/her palate and

>> lip split into two? Or with a hole in the heart muscle?

>

>Actually, this is a no-brainer. Srila Prabhupada usually said

>something like "I hope this finds you in good health..." in his

>letters.

 

Exactly. Someone's mental health and ability to serve can definitely be

adversly affected by being in a defective body (because it has a club foot

or the wrong genitals). I just had a crown put on one of my teeth this

morning, which invovled a lot of artificial destruction and manipulation of

my body. However, with my tooth hurting everytime it came into contact

with hot and cold liquids was definitely detrimental to my mental health,

so I felt justified.

 

Ys,

Madhusudani dasi

[Guest guest]

>What devotional service is enabled by changing one's gender,

>though? You'll have to do better than "Oh, it makes a person

>feel better," as marijuana and vodka can also do that, but are

>nevertheless unacceptable.

 

Hmmmm..... but there is this tiny problem with using those to feel better

"no intoxication" - remember? I for one do not remember promising anything

during initiation about keeping my genitals in their original (in this

life) shape.

 

Ys,

Madhusudani dasi

[Guest guest]

>

> Better to accept others as experts on their own life and to assume they're

making informed decisions for themselves

>

>

 

I agree, but this confused gender situation does seem to have a degree of

influence by the modes of passion and ignorance. I am not saying the rest of

us are sattvic, but I find it hard to imagine someone grounded in a sattvic

frame of mind would feel overwhelmed by this particular issue.

 

None-the-less, whatever issues we may personally find ourselves dealing

with--it all appears very real, I am sure.

[Guest guest]

On 15 Apr 1999, Madhusudani Radha wrote:

 

> I for one do not remember promising anything

> during initiation about keeping my genitals in their original (in this

> life) shape.

>

>

 

 

I recall hearing the philosophy, "Ignore them, and they will go away" as in

the idea of tolerating the itch.

 

I supposed getting a face lift or a breast implant could be an asset under

certain circumstances. Gratefully, I do not find myself in a position needing

to consider such issues.

[Guest guest]

>

> What devotional service is enabled by changing one's gender,

> though? You'll have to do better than "Oh, it makes a person

> feel better," as marijuana and vodka can also do that, but are

> nevertheless unacceptable.

 

 

Making oneself feel better is all we, conditioned souls, do

all the time, every single moment. This is absolutely acceptable.

That what is to be judged is the particular way that one is

doing that. Thus intoxication is not acceptable, among other

things. So, as far as changing one's gender, there is no

reason for anybody to object it. There is also a letter from

Srila Prabhupada who completely accepts and acknowledges one

of his disciple's changing the gender, unless it is done

whimsically. So, for those who are in "bona-fide or not"

mode, this should be enough and satisfying.

 

That what strikes me particularly in this short discussion

on this topic, is the insensitivity of some devotees involved

in. They seam to have strictly observing the other people's

needs from their own perspective for what they would/wouldn't

need in their own life. We simply have no idea what might

be going on with other fellow human being next to us. Because

we are so gross.

 

I have also noticed the reactions of several people (not only

in this forum) in regard to this issue (change of gender).

That what was interesting is that the same persons would

speak the usual phrases (from sastras, of course) when it

comes to other people's situations, from solving different

life problems till the life-or-death situations. "Oh, it

is just materialistic life, we are concerned not for the

coat [body], but for the soul. A devotee sees soul, not the

body." Like that. But then, suddenly, all they see is - body.

They get so disturbed that someone wants/needs to change,

see, his/her coat! And it has just no impact on that people's

life, they are not requested to do anything particularly.

Except to be able to understand that a person who goes for

some such drastic change in his/her life must definitely

had have a good and strong reason to do it. But we are,

usually, not thinking so "deeply". That what is indeed deep

is our strong identification with our own body and its

gender, so simply on hearing that another person of the

same gender is giving it for another, makes us so upset,

disgusted, repulsive, cynical, rejective... But, remember,

it's going simply for some modification (not even complete

change) of a coat. Some people, obviously, need it, no matter

how much you or me do not need it. So simple it actually is.

 

The another moment is that we, normally, do not know how

exactly to behave towards the person who does change

his/her gender, our sexual conceptions gets disoriented

(like Janesvara, who nicely demonstrated this with his nervous

"joke" wether Prisni has become now a *beautiful* lady).

Thus it is us who feel unsecure and uncomfortable in

the situation we don't know to handle with as we usually

do. And, as it is common, instead of looking for *our*

problem within ourselves, we rather (that is easier)

point finger on that one (or something) that we have no

clue how to relate to.

 

 

So, to directly answer your question,

"What devotional service is enabled by changing one's gender,

though?"

 

Just same as in the case of changing one's "color" of a

doty, from saffron to white. For some convinced brahmacary

it simply makes no sense that to get married it helps or

enables anything in regard to rendering devotional service.

So similarly for a convinced male it really doesn't make

any sense to change the gender, from male to female.

So, you don't have to do it. That's all.

 

 

 

 

ys mnd

[Guest guest]

> What difference does it make what gender one identifies with? At this

> stage of the game we don't have a clue what our eternal identity could be.

> And if we did, our temporary material dress does not need to adversely

> effect our eternal relationship with Krsna.

 

I came to ISKCON, partly because devotees declare "we are not

our bodies, and it does not matter if you are male or female", but

after a while, when the honeymoon was over, I more and more

realized that the ISKCON society is as sex-oriented as the

western society, if not more. We are very full of distinctions because

of sex, with a lot of restrictions in both directions. The worst was that

I was not allowed to associate with women, which nearly drove

me crazy. That forced me into complete social isolation, since

I have very little in common with men and men's talk. Although

I think I did a good job of learning men's prajalpa :-) Ridiculus to

have to learn non-spiritual qualities in a spiritual movement.

My growth as a person was completely stunned, which also affected my

devotional life in an adverse way. I was constantly accused of my

bodily faults, as if it was me, and I was the body.

 

Now, in my transition to a women, I more and realize how unfair

I was treated, how much I was seen as my body and not a spirit soul,

how much problems were simply problems due to an inbalance

between the psyche and the gross body and really had nothing to

do with me or my spiritual life. Too big material disturbances

has to be eliminated, to be able to continue devotional life.

 

Everyone was wrong. I am fire, not butter. How many times have

we not heard that philosophy? But how many actually realize

what it means? How many recognize the difference in a person?

We use a rubber-stamp system. All we think are men are butter,

all woman fire. But is it wise to speak a philosophy that we actually

have no realization of? We think we are safe in parrot-repeating,

but some day someone is going to call our cards, and we are

going to be exposed in our bluff, that we actually do not know.

 

 

> While I can't claim to be experiencing boundless bliss as a man, being a

> women in conditional life ain't no bundle of joy either. Either way, I

> don't see the lasting value.

 

You seem to be set on enjoyment in the material world. How come

you immediately jump to that thought? What makes you think I do

what I do for enjoyment? Does it appear like women enjoy

more then men?

 

I never had a thought of changing sex in this lifetime. My mind

was completely set on suffering my karma, of whatever, until

end of this life, as we are supposed to do. But are we?

What if our particular karma we have been suffering from

suddenly runs out, or if Krsna interferes and change your karma?

For me it is like Krsna told me "now you change sex, become a

women in THIS lifetime, i already made all the arrangements".

I did not ask for it, it just suddenly started to happen.

Believe it or not, it really does not matter to me.

If you are a devotee, you can see the truth, if you are not,

nothing in the world can make you see it.

 

This touches directly into our philosophy. Do we belive Krsna

is arranging the life of his devotees, do we belive we are

devotees of Krsna? Is this just talk and imagination, or is

it reality? Do you let your own life be directed by Krsna, or

do you try to run it yourself? Can you differenciate between

the hand of Krsna, and the action of Maya? Do you belive

that you are protected by Krsna?

 

ys Prisni dasi