Nothing Vedic or even Hindu about Vedic astrology

[Guest guest]

Dear Mohan ji,

In Your words:

> Honestly, it is not one lion fighting another nor is it a real lion

> fighting "paper lions" or even 'lazing lions". It is not a fight

> between a lion and a lamb either! In fact, it is not a fight at

all!

> It is not a north-south divide nor is

> it a NRK versus NR - ROI (ROI meaning the "rest of

> India"). It is neither a show of one upmanship nor

> brinkmanship nor scholarship!

Is it about Orator ship? You seem to be in fires!! Why that much force

on a side note?!! You are deviating from the point of discussion, I am

afraid...

> the fact that the predictive system of astrology being

> tom-tomed as Vedic is not Vedic at all.

Hmm...Again going back to the old point... What about the Atharva

Veda slokas related to astrology I provided you with?

> it is just a system of predictions which was known as

> sidereal system till a few decades back and was rechiristened by

> some overseas "jyotishis" as Vedic.

Good to hear from you at least that much. That means, you have already

accepted that Sidereal System existed in Vedic period!!! Good to know

that you views are changing, that is real sincerity. Yes, when we feel

that something is right, we should accept it. Same is true for me as

well.

My question is: If Vedas contained Sidereal astrology what is wrong

in calling the Sidereal astrology used today 'Vedic'? Since as per

your own words Sidereal system of astrology originated in Vedic

period, and then what is wrong in calling it Vedic?

> Almost every member of this forum is participating in one way or the

other

> i.e. either directly or indirectly in this discussion "whether

astrology is Vedic

> or anti-Vedic" and believe me, all of them are very much vociferous

and

> contentious---and not just paper lions--- in their arguments either

for or

> against this view.

Are you trying to turn everybody against me? :) In that case I take

back that statement - on Paper lions. . Let us go back to astrology.

> and was rechiristened by some overseas "jyotishis"

> as Vedic so that they could earn their TA and DA etc.etc.

> for propagating something there as well as here!

Whom you are pointing at? I should look around to see who it is!!

> I must admit that this august forum calls itself "Vedic astrology"

forum

> but in spite of that fact it is participating in the discussion

against its very

> existence! It is a matter of courage and that is the real Vedic

spirit.

Have applause for that appreciation - both for you and the forum. I

support your words in full spirits.

> I cannot expect every member of this forum to come to the immediate

conclusion,

> without any "fight" on his/her part, that what they have been

following till date as

> "Vedic astrology" is actualy not Vedic!

I am interested - Do you want to say that only Sidereal astrology is

Vedic? That means your views as well as mine are changing and we may

come to agreement with each other. Do you want to say that

'astrology as followed today is not Vedic', but that astrology existed

in Vedic period? Please clarify. I am interested to know your views.

> However, I am sure that once the members of this forum are convinced

of the

> fact they have been taken for a ride---either knowingly or

unknowingly--for

> such a long time, they will definitely shed all their misconceptions

and feel

> sorry for all the time, energy and money they have wasted on

> such an non-Vedic pastime which was being presented as "Vedic

astrology".

Do you want to say that "astrology is a pas-time and that we should

spend only for the pastime Vedic-astrology but not non-vedic" ? I

couldn't understand please clarify.

> No doubt there will be some vested interests also whose bread and

> butter lies in just continuing to fleece the gullible but then they

are in

> a miniscule minority.

Yes, for sure there would be!! But god promise...I am not one of

them! .

> However, since a lie has no legs to stand upon, this lie that

> "predictve astrology is Vedic" will also get shattered

> sooner than later, God willing!

Yes, If it is a lie, let it get shattered!! Who is bothered?!. As far

as I am concerned I am not at all bothered, "Whether astrology is

Vedic/Non-Vedic". I am just satisfied by its usefulness. I consider

that it is partly Vedic and partly Non-Vedic (i.e partly originated

from Sindu-Saraswathy/Tantric civilizations as well). Where should we

put all other developments to predictive astrology that happened after

Vedic period? (sorry, I am asking to all others, not to you.)

Therefore, yes, it is Non-Vedic as well. Still I would like to point

out that there are many proofs in support of the origin of astrology

from Vedas (many I have supplied to you and many more in stock)- and

thus calling it Vedic. Therefore I would never say that it is a total

lie, but would like say that it is a partial truth. Yes, if you are

considering just the origin as important, then it is Vedic, if not it

is Non-Vedic.

May be we are drifting away from the direct discussion of questions

in concern.... (Think about it, and let us directly face the questions

boldy, both yours and mine, and come to a conclusion) There are many

important questions you pointed to (like the period of Parasara), I

would like to answer. But it is a tedious task to type such long mails

in a single breath. So expect my answer to some of those questions in

the next mail.

Love,

Sreenadh

 

 

Message: 7

Tue, 1 Nov 2005 06:50:21 -0800 (PST)

Mohan Jyotishi <jyotishi231

Nothing Vedic or even Hindu about "Vedic astrology"

 

Dear Mr.Sreenadh,

I have gone through most of your responses carefully.

The first thing

that is protruding like a sore thumb from your

statements is:

"You are supposed to be in the cave of the lions, and

you proved that

most of them are just paper lions! But beware of the

real lions who

are casually looking at such arguments with a lazy

view, who have much

arguments and proofs in store, and who could clearly

see the logical

errors in your arguments!"

 

Honestly, it is not one lion fighting another nor is

it a real lion

fighting "paper lions" or even 'lazing lions". It is

not a fight

between a lion and a lamb either! In fact, it is not

a fight at all!

It is not a north-south divide nor is

it a NRK versus NR - ROI (ROI meaning the "rest of

India"). It is neither a show of one upmanship nor

brinkmanship nor scholarship!

 

It is just a discussion which is virtually free for

all -- and the

discusion is about the fact that the predictive system

of astrology being

tom-tomed as Vedic is not Vedic at all. It is not

even the so called Hindu

astrology either but it is just a system of

predictions which was known as

sidereal system till a few decades back and was

rechiristened by some

overseas "jyotishis" as Vedic so that they could earn

their TA and DA etc.etc. for

propagating something there as well as here!

 

I must admit that this august forum calls itself

"Vedic astrology" forum but in

spite of that fact it is participating in the

discussion against its very

existence! It is a matter of courage and that is the

real Vedic spirit.

 

Almost evry member of this forum is participating in

one way or the other i.e. either

directly or indirectly in this discussion "whether

astrology is Vedic or

anti-Vedic" and believe me, all of them are very much

vociferous and

contentious---and not just paper lions--- in their

arguments either for or

against this view. Of course, I cannot expect every

member of this forum to

come to the immediate conclusion, without

any "fight" on his/her part, that what they have been

following till date as

"Vedic astrology" is actualy not Vedic! It has been

dinned into the ears of

this generation by our "abhinav Parasharas" and

"modern Varahamihiras" that

our Vedic Rishis had nothing else to do except

"manufacturing" predictive astrology

books like "Brighu Samhita" and "Garga Samhita" and

"Parashara Hora" and

even Shambu Hora Prakash and so on and so forth! This

tamasha has gone to

such an extent that even "Maha Pandit Lankeshwar

Ravan" is supposed to have

written his "Ravana Samhita" just for delineating your

and my future! (One wonders

how the poor fellow got so much time with all the war

preparations at his

hands!)

Then we have got "nadi granthas" like "x nadi" and "y

nadi" and "z

nadi" and what not! However, I am sure that once

the members of this forum

are convinced of the fact they have been taken for a

ride---either knowingly or unknowingly--for such a

long time, they will definitely shed all their

misconceptios and feel sorry

for all the time, energy and money they have wasted on

such an non-Vedic

pastime which was being presented as "Vedic

astrology". No doubt there

will be some vested interests also whose bread and

butter lies in just

continuing to fleece the gullible but then they are in

a miniscule minority.

It is that miniscule minority that has to be watched

and watched carefully

since they may not like to be proved wrong in spite of

their knowing fully

well that they are already wrong! Believe me, most of

our "abhinav

Parasharas" are already aware of the fact that there

is absolutely no

predictive astrology in the Vedas, but then they do

not want to take any

risks now! However, since a lie has no legs to stand

upon, this lie that

"predictve astrology is Vedic" will also get shattered

sooner than later,

God willing!

I will discuss about other points raised by you later

but the first thing I would like to know is how you

have arrived at the conclusions that Parashara Samhita

is of 1500 BCE. This is in fact an absolutely wrong

conclusion since as on date Lagadha's Vedanga

Jyotisha, also known as Rik Jotisha, is the earliest

Indian work on astronomy avilable anywhere in the

world. This is what Shankar Balakrishna Dikshit, the

scholar extraordinary on Indian astronomy, has said on

page 88 of English translation of his "Bharatiya

Jyotish":

"A good many quotations from Garga have been given

before; it appears that Vedanga Jyotisha occupied an

important place in his (i.e. Brahmagupta's) time.

Even Parashara says, 'shravishthadyatpaushnardham

charatah shishiro vasantah'. This gives the same

solar position for winter solstice as given by Vedanga

Jyotisha. This shows that the Vedanga Jyotisha must

have been compiled long before these two seers viz.

Garga and Parashara lived....These verses from Garga

and Parashara show that Vedanga jyotisha was COMPOSED

LONG BEFORE THE TIMES OF GARGA AND PARASHARA..."

 

Then Dr. S. Balachandra Rao, in his Indian Mathematics

and Astronomy, page 24 says, "The Vedanga Jyotisha

belongs to the last part of the Vedic age. The text

proper can be considered as the records of the

essentials of astronomical knowledge needed for the

day-to-day life of the people of those times. The

Vedanga Jyotisha (and not Parashaa Samhita!) IS THE

CLMINATION OF THE KNOWLEDGE DEVELOPED AND ACCUMULATED

OVER THOUSANDS OF YEARS OF THE VEDIC PERIOD PRIOR TO

1400 BC".

Then Prof. T. S. Kuppanna Sastry, the former Hony.

Professor, Sanskrit College, Madras, has said in his

"Collected Papers on Jyotisha" on page 46 "In the

Vedanga Jyotisha (c. 1180 BC) THE EARLIEST HINDU

ASTRONOMICAL WORK EXTANT...".

 

Same is the view of all the prominent scholars like

Dr. R. Shama Sastri, Dr. G. S. Thibaut and S. K.

Pillai.

 

It is not only just the view of these scholars but it

is an astronomical fact that the position of

winter/summer solstice etc. as has been given in the

Vedanga Jyotisha is of around 13th/14th century BC.

These are the phenomena referred to later by

Varahamihira and others in their works. That also

proves that this was the oldest astronomical work of

Vedic astronomy in ancient India.

 

It is also a certainity that Paitamaha Sidhanta, also

known as Brahma Sidhanta, (or the Sidhanta revealed by

Lord Brahma Himself!) of Varaha's Panchashidahntika is

a derviative work of the Vedanga Jyotisha of Lagadha

and not any Parashari Samhita etc.

 

Besdies, Parashari Samhita, which may be a work of

abouit sixth/seventh century BC as per S. B. Dikshit

also does not give planetary longitudes but is

supposed to follow the pattern of the Vedanga Jyotisha

as per the commentators Somakara etc.

 

It means that the Surya Sidhanta of MAYA THE YAVANA

is the very first "Indian" work giving full fleged

methodology of calculating planetary longitudes etc.

With regards,

Mohan Jyotishi

[Guest guest]

I have not at all been drawn towards this thread/discussion, not so

much because I have an apathy towards the roots of astrology or

history for that matter, but because I think it is difficult to prove

the historical roots of something so pervasive and all-encompassing

as jyotish. Different doyens have tried to see a lot in the viewport

of astrology in general and with quite remarkable success. And, yet

we have debates all over the place on sources and purity of classics

and even what constitutes a classic. Add the long-standing oral

tradition and one faces a herculean task to figure out the origins of

jyotish or astrology (CAVEAT: Just because I am using the common

contemporary analogical label of 'Hercules', this should not be

misunderstood by interested parties that I believe that jyotish or

astrology came from Greeks!).

 

When the system itself is partly lost and we know not how much that

lost 'part' is, it is not the right point in the history of a craft

like astrology to worry about or claim about its roots! And if we

throw in even more difficult factors such as what we know of as

jyotish was vedic or pre-vedic, aryan or pre-aryan etc. we are

setting ourselves up for fights but not necessarily getting to the

origin whatever it is. And if jyotish is truly a knowledge that was

revealed from Divine sources, why this bickering about whether it has

hindu origins or chinese or jewish or greek or whatever?

 

UNLESS people essentially are convinced that astrology per se is not

of Divine origin and is entirely anthopogenic (man-made and needless

to say many mothers and sisters and daughters, recent and earlier

also helped, if I may further elaborate to avoid flaring up a sexist

thread on this topic!).

 

Once the aim has been perfected and we have the full knowledge about

the tool in its state of perfection and fully predictable -- that is

the time to go digging in its roots. That time is not here, as I see

it through performances, mine or anyone else's -- claims

notwithstanding!

 

Rohiniranjan

www.boloji.com/astro

 

 

vedic astrology, "Sreenadh" <sreelid>

wrote:

>

> Dear Mohan ji,

> In Your words:

> > Honestly, it is not one lion fighting another nor is it a real

lion

> > fighting "paper lions" or even 'lazing lions". It is not a fight

> > between a lion and a lamb either! In fact, it is not a fight at

> all!

> > It is not a north-south divide nor is

> > it a NRK versus NR - ROI (ROI meaning the "rest of

> > India"). It is neither a show of one upmanship nor

> > brinkmanship nor scholarship!

> Is it about Orator ship? You seem to be in fires!! Why that much

force

> on a side note?!! You are deviating from the point of discussion, I

am

> afraid...

> > the fact that the predictive system of astrology being

> > tom-tomed as Vedic is not Vedic at all.

> Hmm...Again going back to the old point... What about the Atharva

> Veda slokas related to astrology I provided you with?

> > it is just a system of predictions which was known as

> > sidereal system till a few decades back and was rechiristened by

> > some overseas "jyotishis" as Vedic.

> Good to hear from you at least that much. That means, you have

already

> accepted that Sidereal System existed in Vedic period!!! Good to

know

> that you views are changing, that is real sincerity. Yes, when we

feel

> that something is right, we should accept it. Same is true for me

as

> well.

> My question is: If Vedas contained Sidereal astrology what is

wrong

> in calling the Sidereal astrology used today 'Vedic'? Since as per

> your own words Sidereal system of astrology originated in Vedic

> period, and then what is wrong in calling it Vedic?

> > Almost every member of this forum is participating in one way or

the

> other

> > i.e. either directly or indirectly in this discussion "whether

> astrology is Vedic

> > or anti-Vedic" and believe me, all of them are very much

vociferous

> and

> > contentious---and not just paper lions--- in their arguments

either

> for or

> > against this view.

> Are you trying to turn everybody against me? :) In that case I

take

> back that statement - on Paper lions. . Let us go back to

astrology.

>

> > and was rechiristened by some overseas "jyotishis"

> > as Vedic so that they could earn their TA and DA etc.etc.

> > for propagating something there as well as here!

> Whom you are pointing at? I should look around to see who it

is!!

> > I must admit that this august forum calls itself "Vedic

astrology"

> forum

> > but in spite of that fact it is participating in the discussion

> against its very

> > existence! It is a matter of courage and that is the real Vedic

> spirit.

> Have applause for that appreciation - both for you and the forum. I

> support your words in full spirits.

> > I cannot expect every member of this forum to come to the

immediate

> conclusion,

> > without any "fight" on his/her part, that what they have been

> following till date as

> > "Vedic astrology" is actualy not Vedic!

> I am interested - Do you want to say that only Sidereal astrology

is

> Vedic? That means your views as well as mine are changing and we

may

> come to agreement with each other. Do you want to say that

> 'astrology as followed today is not Vedic', but that astrology

existed

> in Vedic period? Please clarify. I am interested to know your views.

> > However, I am sure that once the members of this forum are

convinced

> of the

> > fact they have been taken for a ride---either knowingly or

> unknowingly--for

> > such a long time, they will definitely shed all their

misconceptions

> and feel

> > sorry for all the time, energy and money they have wasted on

> > such an non-Vedic pastime which was being presented as "Vedic

> astrology".

> Do you want to say that "astrology is a pas-time and that we should

> spend only for the pastime Vedic-astrology but not non-vedic" ? I

> couldn't understand please clarify.

> > No doubt there will be some vested interests also whose bread and

> > butter lies in just continuing to fleece the gullible but then

they

> are in

> > a miniscule minority.

> Yes, for sure there would be!! But god promise...I am not one of

> them! .

> > However, since a lie has no legs to stand upon, this lie that

> > "predictve astrology is Vedic" will also get shattered

> > sooner than later, God willing!

> Yes, If it is a lie, let it get shattered!! Who is bothered?!. As

far

> as I am concerned I am not at all bothered, "Whether astrology is

> Vedic/Non-Vedic". I am just satisfied by its usefulness. I consider

> that it is partly Vedic and partly Non-Vedic (i.e partly originated

> from Sindu-Saraswathy/Tantric civilizations as well). Where should

we

> put all other developments to predictive astrology that happened

after

> Vedic period? (sorry, I am asking to all others, not to you.)

> Therefore, yes, it is Non-Vedic as well. Still I would like to

point

> out that there are many proofs in support of the origin of

astrology

> from Vedas (many I have supplied to you and many more in stock)-

and

> thus calling it Vedic. Therefore I would never say that it is a

total

> lie, but would like say that it is a partial truth. Yes, if you are

> considering just the origin as important, then it is Vedic, if not

it

> is Non-Vedic.

> May be we are drifting away from the direct discussion of

questions

> in concern.... (Think about it, and let us directly face the

questions

> boldy, both yours and mine, and come to a conclusion) There are

many

> important questions you pointed to (like the period of Parasara), I

> would like to answer. But it is a tedious task to type such long

mails

> in a single breath. So expect my answer to some of those questions

in

> the next mail.

> Love,

> Sreenadh

>

>

> Message: 7

> Tue, 1 Nov 2005 06:50:21 -0800 (PST)

> Mohan Jyotishi <jyotishi231>

> Nothing Vedic or even Hindu about "Vedic astrology"

>

> Dear Mr.Sreenadh,

> I have gone through most of your responses carefully.

> The first thing

> that is protruding like a sore thumb from your

> statements is:

> "You are supposed to be in the cave of the lions, and

> you proved that

> most of them are just paper lions! But beware of the

> real lions who

> are casually looking at such arguments with a lazy

> view, who have much

> arguments and proofs in store, and who could clearly

> see the logical

> errors in your arguments!"

>

> Honestly, it is not one lion fighting another nor is

> it a real lion

> fighting "paper lions" or even 'lazing lions". It is

> not a fight

> between a lion and a lamb either! In fact, it is not

> a fight at all!

> It is not a north-south divide nor is

> it a NRK versus NR - ROI (ROI meaning the "rest of

> India"). It is neither a show of one upmanship nor

> brinkmanship nor scholarship!

>

> It is just a discussion which is virtually free for

> all -- and the

> discusion is about the fact that the predictive system

> of astrology being

> tom-tomed as Vedic is not Vedic at all. It is not

> even the so called Hindu

> astrology either but it is just a system of

> predictions which was known as

> sidereal system till a few decades back and was

> rechiristened by some

> overseas "jyotishis" as Vedic so that they could earn

> their TA and DA etc.etc. for

> propagating something there as well as here!

>

> I must admit that this august forum calls itself

> "Vedic astrology" forum but in

> spite of that fact it is participating in the

> discussion against its very

> existence! It is a matter of courage and that is the

> real Vedic spirit.

>

> Almost evry member of this forum is participating in

> one way or the other i.e. either

> directly or indirectly in this discussion "whether

> astrology is Vedic or

> anti-Vedic" and believe me, all of them are very much

> vociferous and

> contentious---and not just paper lions--- in their

> arguments either for or

> against this view. Of course, I cannot expect every

> member of this forum to

> come to the immediate conclusion, without

> any "fight" on his/her part, that what they have been

> following till date as

> "Vedic astrology" is actualy not Vedic! It has been

> dinned into the ears of

> this generation by our "abhinav Parasharas" and

> "modern Varahamihiras" that

> our Vedic Rishis had nothing else to do except

> "manufacturing" predictive astrology

> books like "Brighu Samhita" and "Garga Samhita" and

> "Parashara Hora" and

> even Shambu Hora Prakash and so on and so forth! This

> tamasha has gone to

> such an extent that even "Maha Pandit Lankeshwar

> Ravan" is supposed to have

> written his "Ravana Samhita" just for delineating your

> and my future! (One wonders

> how the poor fellow got so much time with all the war

> preparations at his

> hands!)

> Then we have got "nadi granthas" like "x nadi" and "y

> nadi" and "z

> nadi" and what not! However, I am sure that once

> the members of this forum

> are convinced of the fact they have been taken for a

> ride---either knowingly or unknowingly--for such a

> long time, they will definitely shed all their

> misconceptios and feel sorry

> for all the time, energy and money they have wasted on

> such an non-Vedic

> pastime which was being presented as "Vedic

> astrology". No doubt there

> will be some vested interests also whose bread and

> butter lies in just

> continuing to fleece the gullible but then they are in

> a miniscule minority.

> It is that miniscule minority that has to be watched

> and watched carefully

> since they may not like to be proved wrong in spite of

> their knowing fully

> well that they are already wrong! Believe me, most of

> our "abhinav

> Parasharas" are already aware of the fact that there

> is absolutely no

> predictive astrology in the Vedas, but then they do

> not want to take any

> risks now! However, since a lie has no legs to stand

> upon, this lie that

> "predictve astrology is Vedic" will also get shattered

> sooner than later,

> God willing!

> I will discuss about other points raised by you later

> but the first thing I would like to know is how you

> have arrived at the conclusions that Parashara Samhita

> is of 1500 BCE. This is in fact an absolutely wrong

> conclusion since as on date Lagadha's Vedanga

> Jyotisha, also known as Rik Jotisha, is the earliest

> Indian work on astronomy avilable anywhere in the

> world. This is what Shankar Balakrishna Dikshit, the

> scholar extraordinary on Indian astronomy, has said on

> page 88 of English translation of his "Bharatiya

> Jyotish":

> "A good many quotations from Garga have been given

> before; it appears that Vedanga Jyotisha occupied an

> important place in his (i.e. Brahmagupta's) time.

> Even Parashara says, 'shravishthadyatpaushnardham

> charatah shishiro vasantah'. This gives the same

> solar position for winter solstice as given by Vedanga

> Jyotisha. This shows that the Vedanga Jyotisha must

> have been compiled long before these two seers viz.

> Garga and Parashara lived....These verses from Garga

> and Parashara show that Vedanga jyotisha was COMPOSED

> LONG BEFORE THE TIMES OF GARGA AND PARASHARA..."

>

> Then Dr. S. Balachandra Rao, in his Indian Mathematics

> and Astronomy, page 24 says, "The Vedanga Jyotisha

> belongs to the last part of the Vedic age. The text

> proper can be considered as the records of the

> essentials of astronomical knowledge needed for the

> day-to-day life of the people of those times. The

> Vedanga Jyotisha (and not Parashaa Samhita!) IS THE

> CLMINATION OF THE KNOWLEDGE DEVELOPED AND ACCUMULATED

> OVER THOUSANDS OF YEARS OF THE VEDIC PERIOD PRIOR TO

> 1400 BC".

> Then Prof. T. S. Kuppanna Sastry, the former Hony.

> Professor, Sanskrit College, Madras, has said in his

> "Collected Papers on Jyotisha" on page 46 "In the

> Vedanga Jyotisha (c. 1180 BC) THE EARLIEST HINDU

> ASTRONOMICAL WORK EXTANT...".

>

> Same is the view of all the prominent scholars like

> Dr. R. Shama Sastri, Dr. G. S. Thibaut and S. K.

> Pillai.

>

> It is not only just the view of these scholars but it

> is an astronomical fact that the position of

> winter/summer solstice etc. as has been given in the

> Vedanga Jyotisha is of around 13th/14th century BC.

> These are the phenomena referred to later by

> Varahamihira and others in their works. That also

> proves that this was the oldest astronomical work of

> Vedic astronomy in ancient India.

>

> It is also a certainity that Paitamaha Sidhanta, also

> known as Brahma Sidhanta, (or the Sidhanta revealed by

> Lord Brahma Himself!) of Varaha's Panchashidahntika is

> a derviative work of the Vedanga Jyotisha of Lagadha

> and not any Parashari Samhita etc.

>

> Besdies, Parashari Samhita, which may be a work of

> abouit sixth/seventh century BC as per S. B. Dikshit

> also does not give planetary longitudes but is

> supposed to follow the pattern of the Vedanga Jyotisha

> as per the commentators Somakara etc.

>

> It means that the Surya Sidhanta of MAYA THE YAVANA

> is the very first "Indian" work giving full fleged

> methodology of calculating planetary longitudes etc.

> With regards,

> Mohan Jyotishi

>