Guest guest Posted May 16, 2006 Report Share Posted May 16, 2006 Dear members of this group and especially Ashutosh, I am sorry to read the email below as it is a pity that such generalisations are done. I don't know whether you believe in Jesus, Krishna ,Buddha or any other great divine treacher , but all of them taught the world. No one of them sit on his house all his time, having just children, family, a job etc. So, going out to the public and teaching is not neccesarily a sing of being interested in fame,power and money. He/She might be a true Guru, a true Teacher like the Ones I mentioned above. Yes, most of the modern gurus are corrupting human souls but you imply below that whoever teaches the public about spirituality is a false guru and we should be sure of it, without researching their teachings and actions.But, what if a true guru is out there, just one in 1.000.000.000?We should not ,therefore, believe that all of them are wrong, but should think over each one and make up our mind whether they are good or not. Also, what do you mean by sects and cults?Having a spiritual teacher who loves and cares about you means following his/her sect?Or you mean, being a member of an organised thing where there are higher and lower members, were you pay for membership and are made to do weird things? I am a Sahaja Yogi and am grateful for it , while my joy is beyond imagination higher that it could be was I not a Sahaja Yogi!Shri Mataji is a true spiritual guide, aslks for money, asks for no weird stuff , She has recieved many awards worldwide and Her Work can definately desribed in this text.Jai Shri Mataji! Sakis - astrologerashutosh valist Saturday, May 13, 2006 11:28 AM Re: Death - The Proveable - Abuse Dear friend, When I said 'all' I meant 'all'. A true well wishing honest guru does not need to form any cult or organisation. He helps all in his surroundings, as a son, as a husband, as a friend, and in many different ways. You and I are better than these sect-leaders. We think good and do good to more people around us and that too with total honesty. In India, these days, there is a flood of Gurus. Switch on any television channel in the morning and you will find them in different garbs, disguises and poses. All are attempting to prove that we have been living a wrong way of life and only they can teach us the correct way. But, no one says that we an be our own Gurus, which, in fact, is the real spiritual upliftment. Sects are a big business and no Guru is untouched by this business. I had searched a lot of places for a true Guru and found not even one. Then, I looked at people around me, my family, friends, even myself, and now I have so many Gurus. Even the neighbourhood kids have a lot to teach me. They show me some different perspectives of life everyday. A gurus is not only the one whose feet are required to be touched.. Even a person who shakes hands with you can teach you a lot. Remember, any organisational setup gives a lot of powers to its leader. And power always corrupts. Because if the leader is not corrupt, he cannot remain a leader for long. He has to make several compromises to keep the organisation running. You and I, living simple lives in our homes, peacefully co-existing with our neighbours, paying all our taxes, commiting no crimes, are a lot better and much happier than anyone who is a member of these sects or cults. Regards, Ashutosh - temp_spk4 valist Saturday, 13 May, 2006 00:26 Re: Death - The Proveable - Abuse Ashutosh, I think that your statement "you have bared the reality of all these organised cults, sects and gurus" would be better said if instead of "all" you used "some". Unless, by "all" you were referring to just those that Rick has had personal experience with and making a generalization. Just because one has negative experiences with several gurus does not automatically mean that there are not true Gurus, even today. Perhaps such negative experiences and false gurus can be seen in the natal chart. If one had continual negative experiences with astologers and was defrauded every time then such a person might state that "astrology causes all sorts of problems and astogolers are fakes who are out for money" because that has been there experience. However, here we know that this is not the case because we have had the experience that astrology works and we probably know some astrologers who help others greatly with the knowledge they share. valist, "astrologerashutosh" <astrologerashutosh wrote: > > Dear Das, > > This post of yours is a real eye opener. You have bared the reality of all these organised cults, sects and gurus. > > Some years back some boxes of arms and ammunitions were dropped in Purulia district of west bengal by an intruder aeroplane. Though the police knew that they were meant for the Anand Margis, they had no evidence to book them. > > One very famous yogi, Dhirendra Brahmachari, who was personal yoga trainer of Indira Gandhi, owned a gun manufacturing factory in Jammu city in Jammu and Kashmir, in India. He had his own private aircrafts and own runway to land them. > > Then, there is Rajnish. His exploits and extravagances are well known. > > Becoming a guru is the easiest way to power. > > Regards, > > Ashutosh > > > > - > Das Goravani > valist > Friday, 12 May, 2006 06:59 > Death - The Proveable - Abuse > > > > Death > > I have seen a few people die. The one's I saw had no pain and no struggle, > they even seemed fine with it. My mother was so delusional she was actually > having fun talking to all her dead relatives in the room for days before. > There seems to be a repeating pattern of them seeing other people in the > room that we don't see..always people of their past or that you would think > they might see...like Christians seeing Christ while Hindus see Hanuman or > some such...obviously the mind at work if you ask me. There is record of a > famous Irish man dieing long ago and he was speaking of seeing the Druids, > and so on. > > But each time I saw death I became less afraid of it. I don't think it is > to be feared. It seems really easy and natural. Of course not the horrific > ones...they contain suffering...but still...towards the end, shock sets in > and protects the person from feeling, quite often. Shock is the friend of > the traumatized it seems. > > But as for natural mellow deaths, they seem to be not too difficult overall. > And I think it seems like the best assumption, to think that the sentient > conscious being travels through dreamspace of some type, and eventually into > a new life, to continue the learning process, the growing process. > > And it seems, that overall, the whole Earth, all the people and animals, > every being, is linked in one huge class lesson set, one life that we all > live together for billions of years, as if we are going somewhere together, > being raised as a batch, together, progressing together, and now, with TV, > camers, the internet, it's reached a new high of awareness, as we learn to > literally know about and see each other constantly. Nobody in my parents > generation ever met an Indian. Now I'm writing to thousands of them from my > living room, and I've travelled there four times. This is all very new. > The lesson seems to be exponentially going up. > > ----------------------- > > The Proveable > > There is alot that can be proved, when it comes to material nature itself. > For example, it can safely concluded that humans will die if they don't > breathe and eat, plants need water, the Sun must shine or life will perish, > the atom can be split to make an explosion of energy, and much much more. > > From the proveable it is sane to INFER things about the unproveable. It is > natural, and that's how people end up coming up with relgious theories. > > What cannot be proven are things which are beyond our reach to see, know, > touch, experiment with, etc., such as "what is beyond the creation in which > we live". That cannot be proven. But the electricity that runs the > internet is well understood and all our messages are reaching this list, so > talk about nothing is proveable relates only to that which is > "un-know-able", true, correct. > > There are different ways to deal with the unknowable, and each isolated > culture of the old times did so in their own ways, for example, in Ireland > they called "himDagda" and in Norway "Woden" and in India "Vishnu" etc. > > They developed "religions" and "priests" officiated the rituals. Certain > common threads appeared, such as "Priests" of some sort, and a "God" of some > sort, but there were MANY differences as well. > > That's why it's sometimes FUNNY to hear different cultures try to harmonize > their views with each other. You might call it "babble". > > ---------------------- > > Abuse > > So the Vaisnava Hindu scriptures, like the Maharbharat, say that one needs a > Guru in order to know God, and Jesus said something similar...the idea that > one needs a conduit, a teacher, is widespread in religions > worldwide..whether it be officiating intervening priests who perform the > sacrifices "the right way" or a teacher who gives "the right guidance" for > the novitiate, the idea seems to be universal. Some of us call it > priestcraft with a bit of disdain. > > It's a VERY stressed idea in Vaisnava Hinduism, hence the Guru, or teacher, > has a raised seat in the temple. In Hare Krishna, the founder was > worshipped, and still is, almost equal to God himself, and in fact, they say > "kintu prabhor yah priay eva tasya", he is even HIGHER than God because > "God is not so merciful to you as is the Guru who delivers you to God". > > So they really worship the Guru, and his word is not questioned, he is > infallible, as the Pope is infallible. > > Many religions have felt a need to defend themselves. Cardinals have raised > their own armies in the past in England say. Monks have had to defend their > temples and ashrams in numerous countries throughout history. > > When I became the servant of a Hare Krishna Guru, the first day, he showed > me my "Oozie", which is an Israeli Army Semi Automatic Urban Warfare Gun. > It's not a hunting rifle, it's a killing rifle. For killing humans. It's > what you see in all the bad guy movies. It's small, quick, light, and > deadly. > > I joined to be a servant of God. I had never used such a thing nor even > seen one, and suddenly I had been given one, "to protect the Guru". > > Later, I came to realize, this Guru really liked Guns. But nobody could > question that. Eventually we could see he also liked Porsche cars and > Mercedes Benz, all costly, and eventually, he liked the woman too. > > Eventually the temple fell apart. One night he actualy drove through our > city shooting at stores that bothered him, with live ammunition, from one > his many guns, shooting into liquor stores, car stores, whatever, and there > were people inside. He was on a rampage to get attention. I knew him well. > There is no other explanation. > > Many sincere young souls were under him as disciples. Years later he > apologized, but that doesn't make up for time lost in our lives. He had > "shooting days" for the monks who collected money. They got to waste > expensive ammunition shooting at those human paper targets on our Hare > Krishna farm. I did not participate. I am glad to say I saw beyond it. > But I had no alternative except bewildernment. > > The older disciples said it was right and ok, that the Guru had these > options and he knew what was best. There was a general sense always that > "the end of society is near" and that we had to take measures. Finally the > goverment swooped in and took everything, and him, but that was just one of > his many arrests. This is why, the piling up of these crazy events, that I > eventually left him and went to another. But that one feel too. Then > another, and on it goes. Many Hare Krishna people have been through a few > Gurus, because they keep falling down, doing weird things. > > So while it is true that the teacher is the path giver, he may also be the > path destroyer. > > Keeping one's eyes open to one's own heart is the way to hear your voice, > your song, your way, your lessons. > > Kindof takes away the need, and the right, of any teacher to be > "infallible". Stories that there "once was" such persons are really great. > But they too can be misleading. Is "perfection of renunciation", as in the > case of Jesus being so strong and staunch and celibate, really "the path to > emulate". Is the renunciation of "the Budha" really the thing to emulate? > > My life has been filled with this quest alone. It's pretty much what I've > done. Seminary at 13, Hare Krishna at 19, reading other scriptures, always > being involved in this, then studying Celtic warrior path as well. Kindof > prefer that singular self knowing thing now...know thyself...and through > that path study all that is, all of nature, and know it, but if being > deluded in the first, by not paying attention to your own real feelings, the > rest gets messed up. I've learned this the hard way and in a way wasted > alot of my life learning that one lesson. > > ------------------------- > > > > > > Links > Links a.. Visit your group "valist" on the web. b.. valist c.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 16, 2006 Report Share Posted May 16, 2006 Thank you CS and others... In my opinion, the true outer Guru is the manifestation of the true inner Guru, as your body and the world is the physical expansion of the mind and all the subtle mechanisms. The outer Guru sets the inner Guru in motion and makes the inner Guru a reality for you, not just a sleeping potential that you read about in books. The process is mysterious, and while the period of sadhana begins typically from the point physical differentiation, the Sat Guru's job on earth is to free the disciple from the bonds of limitation and give the disciple the freedom of liberation and pure knowledge. And yes, the freedom to overcome the notions of sect, organization, religion, and disparity. In tantra or kundalini yoga, I understand that the Guru is considered indispensable. In fact the brow chakra is named Ajna, which means command, and implies that the aspirant cannot pass further without the command of the Guru. The Siva Sutras declares that for those that cannot unwaveringly focus on the absolute, the Guru is the means. So if you can do that fine, otherwise your ego will get the upper hand and you might as well be trying to be your own mother and give birth to yourself. Okay, admittedly some divine being are called "self born" but obviously that's the exception and not the rule. Without a doubt the false and mediocre guru market is booming. I've heard it said that there are so many false guru's because there are so many false disciples. I've also heard that people get the guru that they deserve (or no Guru as the case may be). Of course, people often feel that they've outgrown their guru and move on hopeful to find someone more qualified, or the Guru leaves this world and the person accepts the help of various teachers in their stead. Incredibly, some of the most notoriously bad guy guru's of modern day have had the most devoted followers, even to the point of taking their own lives and the lives of friends and family. Noted astrologer KN Rao wrote in Yogi's, Destiny and the Wheel of Time something to the effect that while he believed his own Guru was eminently qualified, his guru's disciples, which numbered in the many thousands, were for the most part, very poor students, being mostly interested in gossip, networking, and of course ashram politics and power plays. He believed based on his extensive travels that this was typically the case, even when the Guru him or herself was indeed true. Rao also noted a number of configurations in the chart that indicated psychic and or spiritual development if I recall. I was introduced to eastern spiritualism, as so many in the west have been, through the classic Autobiography of a Yogi, by Swami Yogananda. His heartfelt search for God and Guru is beyond the purity and scope of determination that most spiritually minded people can ordinarily muster. Reading his book I ignited a fire in me to find my own living master. Yogananda's way is somewhat typical of the great saints of past and present. The revered list of great being that have by example participated in the Guru-Disciple relationship includes such mythological giants as Sri Ram and Sri Krishna, and Indra, lord of heavens, icons of previous centuries like Shankaracharya, Jnaneshwar, Eknath, Milarepa, and Abinavagupta, and modern day saints like Shirdi Sai Baba, Ramakrishna, Yogananda (whose Guru was also a well known astrologer) and dozens and dozens of others equally qualified and still with us. These beings were not simply learned pundits; they were spiritual powerhouses that could transmit their lofty state to another through a thought. And let's not forget that spiritual powerhouses lived as human beings in other cultures too. It is true though that for many of the greatest, the time spent with the guru was relatively short as perfection for them was a hair's breadth away. There's a saying here, "you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink". So why blame the saints and sages for the problems of the world. Regards, Preston valist, "CS" <mprgrandmaster wrote: > > Dear members of this group and especially Ashutosh, > I am sorry to read the email below as it is a pity that such generalisations are done. I don't know whether you believe in Jesus, Krishna ,Buddha or any other great divine treacher , but all of them taught the world. No one of them sit on his house all his time, having just children, family, a job etc. So, going out to the public and teaching is not neccesarily a sing of being interested in fame,power and money. He/She might be a true Guru, a true Teacher like the Ones I mentioned above. Yes, most of the modern gurus are corrupting human souls but you imply below that whoever teaches the public about spirituality is a false guru and we should be sure of it, without researching their teachings and actions.But, what if a true guru is out there, just one in 1.000.000.000?We should not ,therefore, believe that all of them are wrong, but should think over each one and make up our mind whether they are good or not. > Also, what do you mean by sects and cults?Having a spiritual teacher who loves and cares about you means following his/her sect?Or you mean, being a member of an organised thing where there are higher and lower members, were you pay for membership and are made to do weird things? > I am a Sahaja Yogi and am grateful for it , while my joy is beyond imagination higher that it could be was I not a Sahaja Yogi!Shri Mataji is a true spiritual guide, aslks for money, asks for no weird stuff , She has recieved many awards worldwide and Her Work can definately desribed in this text.Jai Shri Mataji! > Sakis > - > astrologerashutosh > valist > Saturday, May 13, 2006 11:28 AM > Re: Death - The Proveable - Abuse > > > Dear friend, > > When I said 'all' I meant 'all'. A true well wishing honest guru does not need to form any cult or organisation. He helps all in his surroundings, as a son, as a husband, as a friend, and in many different ways. > > You and I are better than these sect-leaders. We think good and do good to more people around us and that too with total honesty. > > In India, these days, there is a flood of Gurus. Switch on any television channel in the morning and you will find them in different garbs, disguises and poses. All are attempting to prove that we have been living a wrong way of life and only they can teach us the correct way. But, no one says that we an be our own Gurus, which, in fact, is the real spiritual upliftment. > > Sects are a big business and no Guru is untouched by this business. I had searched a lot of places for a true Guru and found not even one. Then, I looked at people around me, my family, friends, even myself, and now I have so many Gurus. Even the neighbourhood kids have a lot to teach me. They show me some different perspectives of life everyday. > > A gurus is not only the one whose feet are required to be touched. Even a person who shakes hands with you can teach you a lot. > > Remember, any organisational setup gives a lot of powers to its leader. And power always corrupts. Because if the leader is not corrupt, he cannot remain a leader for long. He has to make several compromises to keep the organisation running. > > > You and I, living simple lives in our homes, peacefully co-existing with our neighbours, paying all our taxes, commiting no crimes, are a lot better and much happier than anyone who is a member of these sects or cults. > > > Regards, > > Ashutosh > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 17, 2006 Report Share Posted May 17, 2006 A wonderful post indeed! This gave me an idea!Why don;t the experts here try to analyse the chart of some modern or ancient saints/gurus/teachers..? Try to check this natal chart: March 21, 1923 12:00 midday Pune,India Jai Shri MatajI! Sakis - "pegreen123" <PEgreen123 > <valist> Tuesday, May 16, 2006 9:12 PM Re: Death - The Proveable - Abuse > Thank you CS and others... > In my opinion, the true outer Guru is the manifestation of the > true inner Guru, as your body and the world is the physical expansion > of the mind and all the subtle mechanisms. The outer Guru sets the > inner Guru in motion and makes the inner Guru a reality for you, not > just a sleeping potential that you read about in books. The process > is mysterious, and while the period of sadhana begins typically from > the point physical differentiation, the Sat Guru's job on earth is to > free the disciple from the bonds of limitation and give the disciple > the freedom of liberation and pure knowledge. And yes, the freedom to > overcome the notions of sect, organization, religion, and disparity. > In tantra or kundalini yoga, I understand that the Guru is considered > indispensable. In fact the brow chakra is named Ajna, which means > command, and implies that the aspirant cannot pass further without > the command of the Guru. The Siva Sutras declares that for those that > cannot unwaveringly focus on the absolute, the Guru is the means. So > if you can do that fine, otherwise your ego will get the upper hand > and you might as well be trying to be your own mother and give birth > to yourself. Okay, admittedly some divine being are called "self > born" but obviously that's the exception and not the rule. > Without a doubt the false and mediocre guru market is booming. > I've heard it said that there are so many false guru's because there > are so many false disciples. I've also heard that people get the guru > that they deserve (or no Guru as the case may be). Of course, people > often feel that they've outgrown their guru and move on hopeful to > find someone more qualified, or the Guru leaves this world and the > person accepts the help of various teachers in their stead. > Incredibly, some of the most notoriously bad guy guru's of modern day > have had the most devoted followers, even to the point of taking > their own lives and the lives of friends and family. > Noted astrologer KN Rao wrote in Yogi's, Destiny and the Wheel > of Time something to the effect that while he believed his own Guru > was eminently qualified, his guru's disciples, which numbered in the > many thousands, were for the most part, very poor students, being > mostly interested in gossip, networking, and of course ashram > politics and power plays. He believed based on his extensive travels > that this was typically the case, even when the Guru him or herself > was indeed true. Rao also noted a number of configurations in the > chart that indicated psychic and or spiritual development if I > recall. > I was introduced to eastern spiritualism, as so many in the west > have been, through the classic Autobiography of a Yogi, by Swami > Yogananda. His heartfelt search for God and Guru is beyond the purity > and scope of determination that most spiritually minded people can > ordinarily muster. Reading his book I ignited a fire in me to find my > own living master. Yogananda's way is somewhat typical of the great > saints of past and present. The revered list of great being that have > by example participated in the Guru-Disciple relationship includes > such mythological giants as Sri Ram and Sri Krishna, and Indra, lord > of heavens, icons of previous centuries like Shankaracharya, > Jnaneshwar, Eknath, Milarepa, and Abinavagupta, and modern day saints > like Shirdi Sai Baba, Ramakrishna, Yogananda (whose Guru was also a > well known astrologer) and dozens and dozens of others equally > qualified and still with us. These beings were not simply learned > pundits; they were spiritual powerhouses that could transmit their > lofty state to another through a thought. And let's not forget that > spiritual powerhouses lived as human beings in other cultures too. It > is true though that for many of the greatest, the time spent with the > guru was relatively short as perfection for them was a hair's breadth > away. > There's a saying here, "you can lead a horse to water but you > can't make him drink". So why blame the saints and sages for the > problems of the world. > > Regards, > Preston > > > valist, "CS" <mprgrandmaster wrote: > > > > Dear members of this group and especially Ashutosh, > > I am sorry to read the email below as it is a pity that such > generalisations are done. I don't know whether you believe in Jesus, > Krishna ,Buddha or any other great divine treacher , but all of them > taught the world. No one of them sit on his house all his time, > having just children, family, a job etc. So, going out to the public > and teaching is not neccesarily a sing of being interested in > fame,power and money. He/She might be a true Guru, a true Teacher > like the Ones I mentioned above. Yes, most of the modern gurus are > corrupting human souls but you imply below that whoever teaches the > public about spirituality is a false guru and we should be sure of > it, without researching their teachings and actions.But, what if a > true guru is out there, just one in 1.000.000.000?We should > not ,therefore, believe that all of them are wrong, but should think > over each one and make up our mind whether they are good or not. > > Also, what do you mean by sects and cults?Having a spiritual > teacher who loves and cares about you means following his/her sect?Or > you mean, being a member of an organised thing where there are higher > and lower members, were you pay for membership and are made to do > weird things? > > I am a Sahaja Yogi and am grateful for it , while my joy is beyond > imagination higher that it could be was I not a Sahaja Yogi!Shri > Mataji is a true spiritual guide, aslks for money, asks for no weird > stuff , She has recieved many awards worldwide and Her Work can > definately desribed in this text.Jai Shri Mataji! > > Sakis > > - > > astrologerashutosh > > valist > > Saturday, May 13, 2006 11:28 AM > > Re: Death - The Proveable - Abuse > > > > > > Dear friend, > > > > When I said 'all' I meant 'all'. A true well > wishing honest guru does not need to form any cult or organisation. > He helps all in his surroundings, as a son, as a husband, as a > friend, and in many different ways. > > > > You and I are better than these sect-leaders. We think > good and do good to more people around us and that too with total > honesty. > > > > In India, these days, there is a flood of Gurus. Switch > on any television channel in the morning and you will find them in > different garbs, disguises and poses. All are attempting to prove > that we have been living a wrong way of life and only they can teach > us the correct way. But, no one says that we an be our own Gurus, > which, in fact, is the real spiritual upliftment. > > > > Sects are a big business and no Guru is untouched by this > business. I had searched a lot of places for a true Guru and found > not even one. Then, I looked at people around me, my family, friends, > even myself, and now I have so many Gurus. Even the neighbourhood > kids have a lot to teach me. They show me some different perspectives > of life everyday. > > > > A gurus is not only the one whose feet are required to be > touched. Even a person who shakes hands with you can teach you a lot. > > > > Remember, any organisational setup gives a lot of powers > to its leader. And power always corrupts. Because if the leader is > not corrupt, he cannot remain a leader for long. He has to make > several compromises to keep the organisation running. > > > > > > You and I, living simple lives in our homes, peacefully > co-existing with our neighbours, paying all our taxes, commiting no > crimes, are a lot better and much happier than anyone who is a member > of these sects or cults. > > > > > > Regards, > > > > Ashutosh > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Links > > > > > > > <*> valist/ <*> valist <*> Your Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.