Jhora 7.02 vs Swiss Ephemeris

June 10, 2005

Dear Sanjay Rath,

HAre Rama Krsna!

What does the nadiamsa ruler become for these 2 charts with an ayanamsa of

47 min 6sec less than Lahiri? Doesn't birthtime have to be super accurate

for this kind of calculation and who in the world can provide such

accurate birthtime? As such it would be rather a system of rectification,

more than a prediction tool. Correct me if I'm wrong.

>Case-1: Jiddu Krishnamurti

>Case-2: Dr B V Raman

Yours,

Dhira Krsna dasa,

web site: <http://www.geocities.com/dvdd1008/Jyotisha.html>

<http://.org/learning>

June 13, 2005

|| Om Gurave Namah ||

Dear Dhira Krishan Prabhu,

Namaste,

I think it should be part of both noting accurate time and some

rectification will be involved here. Since Nadi techniques was in use

way before modern clocks I also think there could be some other

techniques to work out these charts. Lets see what Guruji Sanjay Rath

has to tell about these techniques.

Warm Regards

Sanjay P

Hare Rama Krishna

vedic astrology, "Dhira Krsna BCS"

<Dhira.Krsna.BCS@p...> wrote:

> Dear Sanjay Rath,

>

> HAre Rama Krsna!

>

> What does the nadiamsa ruler become for these 2 charts with an

ayanamsa of

> 47 min 6sec less than Lahiri? Doesn't birthtime have to be super

accurate

> for this kind of calculation and who in the world can provide such

> accurate birthtime? As such it would be rather a system of

rectification,

> more than a prediction tool. Correct me if I'm wrong.

>

> >Case-1: Jiddu Krishnamurti

> >Case-2: Dr B V Raman

>

> Yours,

> Dhira Krsna dasa,

June 18, 2005

Om Hari Krishna

Dear Narasimha Ji, Sanjay Ji and Members,

I have a question regarding Jhora 7.02

(full 57 mb version) vs Swiss Ephemeris as well. I'm trying to use

the Swiss Ephemeris for my own calculations and found a big difference

for sunrise, related to "the tip of the Sun's disk appears to be on

the eastern horizon" and "the tip of Sun's disk is truly on the

eastern horizon", but not for "True center of solar disk on the

horizon" (see a summary table below for Swiss Ephemeris vs Jhora 7.02/

Parahsara Light 6.0):

For the Edmonton, Jun 15th, 2005:

Lat:

53N33:00 53.5500

TZ:07

Long:

113W30:00 -113.500 DST:1

1 2

3 Diff1/2

Diff1/3

Diff2/3

Type

Swep

JH7.02 PHL6

a. the tip of the Sun's 5:03:58 5:08:19

5:08:18

0:04:21 0:04:20

0:0:01

disk appears ...

b. the tip of Sun's

5:09:15 5:10:43 N/A

0:01:28

N/A

??

disk is truly ...

c. True center of

5:11:38 5:11:38 5:11:46

0:0:0

0:0:08

solar disk ...

Could you please advise what is the reason

so big difference and is it possible to make a correction for the "tip

of the Sun's disk appears to be on the eastern horizon" and "tip

of Sun's disk is truly on the eastern horizon" calculations by Swiss

Ephemeris? If that impossible, is available any other mathematical library,

which can be used for sunrise calculation with MS Excel or programming

languages like Java, C++ or/and Visual Basic?

Yours truly,

Youry

Jai Guru Dev

On 6/8/05, Narasimha P.V.R. Rao <pvr (AT) charter (DOT) net>

wrote:

> Namaste Pushya,

>

> I am away from the lists. If

anybody has something urgent that needs my

> attention, they should cc the

mail to me. Sanjay, thank you for forwarding

> the mail to me!

>

> The Swiss Ephemeris positions

you gave must have been computed using

> "apparent" positions

instead of "true" positions. In JHora, select

> "Preferences", then

"Related to calculations" and then "Planet Calculation

> Options". In JHora, default

is "true" positions. So you are comparing

> apples

> to oranges. If you want to compare

apples to apples, please change the

> JHora

> option to use apparent positions

(though I recommend true positions).

>

> If you change the option and

do a comparison, you will no longer have upto

> 30 arc-sec differences that

you showed below. The differences will be more

> or less uniform and will be

slightly less than 2 arc-sec.

>

> Apart from small differences

in rounding, that 2 arc-sec difference is

> largely due to differences in

ayanamsa calculation. I use Swiss Ephemeris

> only for tropical planetary

positions and do not use their sidereal

> calculations. I use my own module

to compute the ayanamsa. There is a small

> difference between what they

do and what I do.

>

> The original Lahiri ayanamsa

was linear - it assumed a fixed rate of

> precession. However, linear

ayanamsa is not correct. Science does not know

> the correct ayanamsa, but we

do know the correct model for the changes in

> ayanamsa with time (given the

initial ayanamsa on a particular date and

> time). So I use the non-linear

model. I am assuming that Swiss Ephemeris

> uses the original linear Lahiri

ayanamsa OR, more likely, they use the

> correct non-linear model, but

use a slightly different seed. In other

> words,

> they and I may have converted

the linear ayanamsa into a non-linear one in

> a

> slightly different way. When

we non-linearize Lahiri ayanamsa, should we

> take the star position as sacrosant

or the zero ayanamsa date given by

> Lahiri to be sacrosanct or the

ayanamsa value given for some specific date

> (e.g. 1900 Jan 1) as sacrosanct?

We can't honor all of them and have to

> honor only one of them. If you

assume a linear ayanamsa change rate as

> Lahiri originally did, all of

them can be honored. But, when we

> non-linearize it, we have to

choose one of them, honor it and deviate in

> the

> others.

>

> In any case, I will investigate

this further and correct any errors in my

> software or give new options

if I deem them appropriate.

>

> On a separate note, some people

have been asking me to allow linear

> ayanamsas. For example, Yukteshwar

ayanamsa uses a fixed rate of precession

> change that is factually known

to be wrong. However, it looks like some

> people want to stick to it.

In future, I will add support for some linear

> ayanamsas also (though they

are definitely wrong).

>

> I hope this answers your question.

But, by using the same setting for

> apparent/true positions in both

softwares, you can considerably reduce the

> mismatches.

>

> Sanjay, you can rely on JHora

for your ardha-nadi work, but please realize

> that there are several options

and make sure that you set them correctly.

> If

> you have the patience to try

all permutations and combinations, please try

> them all and draw your own conclusions.

Otherwise, I will suggest setting

> "geocentric" positions,

"true" positions and "mean" nodes in the "Planet

> Calculation Options". However,

I am not sure if Lahiri ayanamsa is fully

> correct. Above, we were talking

about deviations of 1-2 arc-sec between

> softwares. But I am of the opinion

that the Lahiri ayanamsa may be off by

> 1-2 arc-MIN. As this is comparable

to the ardha-nadi size, your research

> cannot be done without fixing

the ayanamsa perfectly!

>

> May Jupiter's light shine on

us,

> Narasimha

>

> -

> "Sanjay Rath"

> <vedic astrology>

> Cc: "Narasimha P.V.R. Rao"

> Wednesday, June 08, 2005

8:35 AM

> [vedic astrology] Jhora

7.02 vs Swiss Ephemeris

June 19, 2005

Om Hari Krishna

Dear Narasimha Ji, Sanjay Ji and Members,

I'm sorry for the table format in my

previous message. The corrected table with sunrise data is below:

For the Edmonton, Jun 15th, 2005:

Lat :53 N33:00 53.5500 TZ :07

Long:113W30:00 -113.5000 DST: 1

Options within Swiss Ephemeris (Swep), JHora

7.02 (JH7.02), and Parashara's Light 6.0 (PL6):

a. "the tip of the Sun's disk appears to be on

the eastern horizon"

b. "the tip of Sun's disk is truly on the eastern

horizon"

c. "True center of solar disk on the horizon"

Swep(1) JH7.02(2) PL6(3) |(1)-(2)|

|(1)-(3)| |(2)-(3)|

a. 5:03:58 5:08:19 5:08:18 0:04:21

0:04:20 0:0:01

b. 5:09:15 5:10:43 N/A 0:01:28

N/A N/A

c. 5:11:38 5:11:38 5:11:46 0:0:0

0:0:08 0:0:08

Could you please advise what is the reason for so

big difference and is it possible to make a correction for the "tip

of the Sun's disk appears to be on the eastern horizon" and "tip

of Sun's disk is truly on the eastern horizon" calculations by Swiss

Ephemeris?

Sincerely yours and Jai Guru Dev,

Youry

---------- Forwarded message ----------

Wrom: GSWZIDREXCAXZOWCONEUQZAAFXIS

Jun 18, 2005 1:42 PM

[vedic astrology] RE: Jhora 7.02 vs Swiss Ephemeris

vedic astrology

Cc: "Narasimha P. V. R. Rao" <pvr (AT) charter (DOT) net>, Sanjay

Rath

<guruji (AT) srath (DOT) com>, pushya <pushya >

Om Hari Krishna

Dear Narasimha Ji, Sanjay Ji and Members,

I have a question regarding Jhora 7.02 (full 57 mb

version) vs Swiss

Ephemeris as well. I'm trying to use the Swiss Ephemeris for my own

calculations and found a big difference for sunrise, related to "the

tip of the Sun's disk appears to be on the eastern horizon" and "the

tip of Sun's disk is truly on the eastern horizon", but not for "True

center of solar disk on the horizon" (see a summary table below for

Swiss Ephemeris vs Jhora 7.02/ Parahsara Light 6.0):

For the Edmonton, Jun 15th, 2005:

Lat: 53N33:00

53.5500 TZ:07

Long: 113W30:00 -113.500

DST:1

1 2

3

Diff1/2 Diff1/3

Diff2/3

Type

Swep JH7.02

PHL6

a. the tip of the Sun's 5:03:58 5:08:19 5:08:18

0:04:21 0:04:20

0:0:01

disk appears ...

b. the tip of Sun's 5:09:15 5:10:43

N/A

0:01:28 N/A

??

disk is truly ...

c. True center of 5:11:38 5:11:38

5:11:46

0:0:0 0:0:08

0:0:08

solar disk ...

Could you please advise what is the reason so big

difference and is it

possible to make a correction for the "tip of the Sun's disk appears

to be on the eastern horizon" and "tip of Sun's disk is truly

on the

eastern horizon" calculations by Swiss Ephemeris? If that impossible,

is available any other mathematical library, which can be used for

sunrise calculation with MS Excel or programming languages like Java,

C++ or/and Visual Basic?

Yours truly,

Youry

Jai Guru Dev

On 6/8/05, Narasimha P.V.R. Rao <pvr (AT) charter (DOT) net>

wrote:

> Namaste Pushya,

>

> I am away from the lists. If anybody has something urgent that

needs my

> attention, they should cc the mail to me. Sanjay, thank you

for forwarding

> the mail to me!

>

> The Swiss Ephemeris positions you gave must have been computed

using

> "apparent" positions instead of "true" positions.

In JHora, select

> "Preferences", then "Related to calculations"

and then "Planet Calculation

> Options". In JHora, default is "true" positions.

So you are comparing

> apples

> to oranges. If you want to compare apples to apples, please

change the

> JHora

> option to use apparent positions (though I recommend true positions).

>

> If you change the option and do a comparison, you will no longer

have upto

> 30 arc-sec differences that you showed below. The differences

will be more

> or less uniform and will be slightly less than 2 arc-sec.

>

> Apart from small differences in rounding, that 2 arc-sec difference

is

> largely due to differences in ayanamsa calculation. I use Swiss

Ephemeris

> only for tropical planetary positions and do not use their sidereal

> calculations. I use my own module to compute the ayanamsa. There

is a small

> difference between what they do and what I do.

>

> The original Lahiri ayanamsa was linear - it assumed a fixed

rate of

> precession. However, linear ayanamsa is not correct. Science

does not know

> the correct ayanamsa, but we do know the correct model for the

changes in

> ayanamsa with time (given the initial ayanamsa on a particular

date and

> time). So I use the non-linear model. I am assuming that Swiss

Ephemeris

> uses the original linear Lahiri ayanamsa OR, more likely, they

use the

> correct non-linear model, but use a slightly different seed.

In other

> words,

> they and I may have converted the linear ayanamsa into a non-linear

one in

> a

> slightly different way. When we non-linearize Lahiri ayanamsa,

should we

> take the star position as sacrosant or the zero ayanamsa date

given by

> Lahiri to be sacrosanct or the ayanamsa value given for some

specific date

> (e.g. 1900 Jan 1) as sacrosanct? We can't honor all of them

and have to

> honor only one of them. If you assume a linear ayanamsa change

rate as

> Lahiri originally did, all of them can be honored. But, when

we

> non-linearize it, we have to choose one of them, honor it and

deviate in

> the

> others.

>

> In any case, I will investigate this further and correct any

errors in my

> software or give new options if I deem them appropriate.

>

> On a separate note, some people have been asking me to allow

linear

> ayanamsas. For example, Yukteshwar ayanamsa uses a fixed rate

of precession

> change that is factually known to be wrong. However, it looks

like some

> people want to stick to it. In future, I will add support for

some linear

> ayanamsas also (though they are definitely wrong).

>

> I hope this answers your question. But, by using the same setting

for

> apparent/true positions in both softwares, you can considerably

reduce the

> mismatches.

>

> Sanjay, you can rely on JHora for your ardha-nadi work, but

please realize

> that there are several options and make sure that you set them

correctly.

> If

> you have the patience to try all permutations and combinations,

please try

> them all and draw your own conclusions. Otherwise, I will suggest

setting

> "geocentric" positions, "true" positions

and "mean" nodes in the "Planet

> Calculation Options". However, I am not sure if Lahiri

ayanamsa is fully

> correct. Above, we were talking about deviations of 1-2 arc-sec

between

> softwares. But I am of the opinion that the Lahiri ayanamsa

may be off by

> 1-2 arc-MIN. As this is comparable to the ardha-nadi size, your

research

> cannot be done without fixing the ayanamsa perfectly!

>

> May Jupiter's light shine on us,

> Narasimha

>

> -

> Wrom: HJEXXIMQZUIVOTQNQEMSFDULHPQQWOYIY

> <vedic astrology>

> Cc: "Narasimha P.V.R. Rao" <pvr (AT) charter (DOT) net>

> Wednesday, June 08, 2005 8:35 AM

> [vedic astrology] Jhora 7.02 vs Swiss Ephemeris

|| Om Tat Sat || Sarvam Sri Krishnaarpanamastu

||

________________________________

vedic astrology/

vedic astrology

Terms of Service.

--

Thanks,

Youry

June 21, 2005

Namaste Youry,

As the author of "Jagannatha Hora" software, I want to confirm that Dieter Koch

is right. Swiss Ephemeris is correct and Jagannatha Hora is incorrect here.

Though two softwares (Jagannatha Hora and Parasara's Light) give the same time

with option A and only Swiss Ephemeris differs, it is the latter that is

correct.

Jagannatha Hora gives three options for sunrise: (A) true rise of Sun's center,

(B) true rise of Sun's upper tip, and, © apparent rise of Sun's upper tip.

The first two options are fine, but an assumption/simplification made in the

computation of the third option results in an error that is unacceptably large

near the poles. This will be fixed in a future release.

However, for astrological purposes such as finding special ascendants, I

strongly suggest using option A and not option C.

May Jupiter's light shine on

us,Narasimha-------------------------------Free

Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro.home.comcast.netFree Jyotish software

(Windows): http://www.VedicAstrologer.org

SJC website:

http://www.SriJagannath.org-------------------------------

-

Youry

Sanjay Rath

Cc: Narasimha P.V.R. Rao

Monday, June 20, 2005 10:46 PM

RE: Jhora 7.02 vs Swiss Ephemeris

Dear Sanjay Ji, Thank you very much for your reply. In other Jyotisha and

astrology forums the sunrise question is discussing now as well. I have the

answer from Dieter Koch <dieter (AT) astro (DOT) ch> , who developed the Swiss Ephemeris:

>You have to decide between these two possibilities, because the differences>are

considerable:>5:03:58: "the tip of the Sun's disk appears to be on the eastern

horizon">rsmi = SE_CALC_RISE = 1>5:09:15: "the tip of Sun's disk is truly on

the eastern horizon".>rsmi = SE_CALC_RISE + SE_BIT_NO_REFRACTION = 513>I

suggest 5:03:58, because it is in agreement with observation

("weatherman").>The calculations from Jagannath Hora Light you mentioned in

your previous>e-mail must be wrong. From the other side, I study TOB

rectification by Tatwa/Antartatwa now, where sunrise is crucial. I have not bad

results with Swiss Ephemeris, but I'm still not sure what is correct. Sincerely

yours, Youry Jai Guru Dev "Sanjay Rath" <sanjayrath > wrote on

06/20/2005 02:24:18 AM:> > > > |om | > DearYoury > Thank you for bringing

this to my notice. I am sure Narasimha > will look into this at the earliest

possible time and do the > necessary corrections. In fact I think the

difference is due to > asc & refraction which is about 4min and wonder if this

has been> accounted for. Anyway let Narasimha look into this first. > This can

make a very big difference in Pranapada and special > ascendants like HL etc.

> With best wishes and warm regards, > Sanjay Rath > * * * > Sri Jagannath

CenterÂ® > 15B Gangaram Hospital Road > New Delhi 110060, India >

http://srath.com, +91-11-25717162 > * * * > >

------------------- > This mailbox protected

from unsolicited email by Spam Alarm from> Dignity Software

http://www.dignitysoftware.com > > > Youry [khmelevsky (AT) acm (DOT) org]

> Sunday, June 19, 2005 11:50 PM > vedic astrology >

Cc: Narasimha P. V. R. Rao; srath (AT) srath (DOT) com; guruji (AT) srath (DOT) com; pushya >

Fw: [vedic astrology] RE: Jhora 7.02 vs Swiss Ephemeris > > Om Hari

Krishna > > Dear Narasimha Ji, Sanjay Ji and Members, > > I'm sorry for the

table format in my previous message. The > corrected table with sunrise data

is below: > > For the Edmonton, Jun 15th, 2005: > Lat :53 N33:00 53.5500 TZ

:07 > Long:113W30:00 -113.5000 DST: 1 > > Options within Swiss Ephemeris

(Swep), JHora 7.02 (JH7.02), and> Parashara's Light 6.0 (PL6): > a. "the tip

of the Sun's disk appears to be on the eastern horizon" > b. "the tip of Sun's

disk is truly on the eastern horizon" > c. "True center of solar disk on the

horizon" > > Swep(1) JH7.02(2) PL6(3) |(1)-(2)| |(1)-(3)| |(2)-(3)| > a.

5:03:58 5:08:19 5:08:18 0:04:21 0:04:20 0:0:01 > b. 5:09:15 5:10:43

N/A 0:01:28 N/A N/A > c. 5:11:38 5:11:38 5:11:46 0:0:0

0:0:08 0:0:08 > > Could you please advise what is the reason for so big

difference> and is it possible to make a correction for the "tip of the >

Sun's disk appears to be on the eastern horizon" and "tip of > Sun's disk is

truly on the eastern horizon" calculations by SwissEphemeris? > > Sincerely

yours and Jai Guru Dev, > > Youry

June 21, 2005

Namaste Narasimha Ji,

Thank you very much for your confirmation!!!

I was really confused very much by so big difference.

One question is still left for the “(B) true rise of Sun's upper tip”,

where we still have about 88 seconds difference:

> b. 5:09:15 5:10:43 diff: 0:01:28

What is more accurate in this case, the time in "Jagannatha Hora"

software or in Swess Ephemeris? I ask you about that, because for the

“(A) true rise of Sun's center” the difference is couple seconds only

in several Jyotish programs, but not for (B) and ©.

Sincerely yours and Jai Guru Dev,

Youry

"Narasimha P.V.R. Rao" <pvr wrote on 06/21/2005, 05:18:10

PM:

> Namaste Youry,

>

> As the author of "Jagannatha Hora" software, I want to confirm that Dieter

Koch is right. Swiss Ephemeris is correct and Jagannatha Hora is incorrect here.

Though two softwares (Jagannatha Hora and Parasara's Light) give the same time

with option A and only Swiss Ephemeris differs, it is the latter that is

correct.

>

> Jagannatha Hora gives three options for sunrise: (A) true rise of Sun's

center, (B) true rise of Sun's upper tip, and, © apparent rise of Sun's upper

tip. The first two options are fine, but an assumption/simplification made in

the computation of the third option results in an error that is unacceptably

large near the poles. This will be fixed in a future release.

>

> However, for astrological purposes such as finding special ascendants, I

strongly suggest using option A and not option C.

>

> May Jupiter's light shine on us,

> Narasimha

> -------------------------------

> Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro.home.comcast.net

> Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAstrologer.org

> SJC website: http://www.SriJagannath.org

> -------------------------------

> -

> Youry

> Sanjay Rath

> Cc: Narasimha P.V.R. Rao

> Monday, June 20, 2005 10:46 PM

> RE: Jhora 7.02 vs Swiss Ephemeris

>

> Dear Sanjay Ji,

>

> Thank you very much for your reply.

>

> In other Jyotisha and astrology forums the sunrise question is discussing

now as well.

>

> I have the answer from Dieter Koch , who developed the Swiss Ephemeris:

>

> >You have to decide between these two possibilities, because the differences

> >are considerable:

> >5:03:58: "the tip of the Sun's disk appears to be on the eastern horizon"

> >rsmi = SE_CALC_RISE = 1

> >5:09:15: "the tip of Sun's disk is truly on the eastern horizon".

> >rsmi = SE_CALC_RISE + SE_BIT_NO_REFRACTION = 513

>

> >I suggest 5:03:58, because it is in agreement with observation

("weatherman").

> >The calculations from Jagannath Hora Light you mentioned in your previous

> >e-mail must be wrong.

>

> From the other side, I study TOB rectification by Tatwa/Antartatwa now,

where sunrise is crucial. I have not bad results with Swiss Ephemeris, but I'm

still not sure what is correct.

>

> Sincerely yours,

>

> Youry

>

> Jai Guru Dev

>

> "Sanjay Rath" wrote on 06/20/2005 02:24:18 AM:

>

> >

> > |om |

> > DearYoury

> > Thank you for bringing this to my notice. I am sure Narasimha

> > will look into this at the earliest possible time and do the

> > necessary corrections. In fact I think the difference is due to

> > asc & refraction which is about 4min and wonder if this has been

> > accounted for. Anyway let Narasimha look into this first.

> > This can make a very big difference in Pranapada and special

> > ascendants like HL etc.

> > With best wishes and warm regards,

> > Sanjay Rath

> > * * *

> > Sri Jagannath Center®

> > 15B Gangaram Hospital Road

> > New Delhi 110060, India

> > http://srath.com, +91-11-25717162

> > * * *

> >

> > -------------------

> > This mailbox protected from unsolicited email by Spam Alarm from

> > Dignity Software http://www.dignitysoftware.com

> >

> > Youry [khmelevsky]

> > Sunday, June 19, 2005 11:50 PM

> > vedic astrology

> > Cc: Narasimha P. V. R. Rao; srath; guruji; pushya

> > Fw: [vedic astrology] RE: Jhora 7.02 vs Swiss Ephemeris

> >

> > Om Hari Krishna

> >

> > Dear Narasimha Ji, Sanjay Ji and Members,

> >

> > I'm sorry for the table format in my previous message. The

> > corrected table with sunrise data is below:

> >

> > For the Edmonton, Jun 15th, 2005:

> > Lat :53 N33:00 53.5500 TZ :07

> > Long:113W30:00 -113.5000 DST: 1

> >

> > Options within Swiss Ephemeris (Swep), JHora 7.02 (JH7.02), and

> > Parashara's Light 6.0 (PL6):

> > a. "the tip of the Sun's disk appears to be on the eastern horizon"

> > b. "the tip of Sun's disk is truly on the eastern horizon"

> > c. "True center of solar disk on the horizon"

> >

> > Swep(1) JH7.02(2) PL6(3) |(1)-(2)| |(1)-(3)| |(2)-(3)|

> > a. 5:03:58 5:08:19 5:08:18 0:04:21 0:04:20 0:0:01

> > b. 5:09:15 5:10:43 N/A 0:01:28 N/A N/A

> > c. 5:11:38 5:11:38 5:11:46 0:0:0 0:0:08 0:0:08

> >

> > Could you please advise what is the reason for so big difference

> > and is it possible to make a correction for the "tip of the

> > Sun's disk appears to be on the eastern horizon" and "tip of

> > Sun's disk is truly on the eastern horizon" calculations by

SwissEphemeris?

> >

> > Sincerely yours and Jai Guru Dev,

> >

> > Youry

June 22, 2005

|om |

Dear Narasimha,

Thank you for checking this out inspite of your tight schedule.

Your suggestion is nice but I prefer to continue with my sunrise time of

visibility of tip of sun's disk. You have given fine arguments about clouds,

non-visibility and eclipse to defend your point. Shall surely consider them,

below.

My reasons are a bit too simplistic - Varähamihira knew more about eclipses,

colors of eclipses and bird cries and what not all and almost all kinds of

winds and cloud formations than any living astrologer today. If after all that

he still advises use of *visibility of tip of sun's disk*, I guess I will

follow this until I can understand better.

Like all good Vedic Astrologers we continue to discuss these and other such

topics like KCD so that a solution emerges from a better appreciation of the

knowledge of the seers. Sat Siri ji has given a good article on KCD in this

issue of JD and shall await your critique on that after you get and read the

magazine. Honestly I was expecting more serious astrologers to participate and

give their views and doubts on KCD...lets resolve that and then the ayanamsa

issue first before venturing into sunrise and other definitions.

With best wishes and warm regards,

Sanjay Rath

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Narasimha P.V.R. Rao [pvr (AT) charter (DOT) net] Tuesday, June 21, 2005

8:48 PMSanjay Rath; Youry; vedic astrologyCc:

dieter (AT) astro (DOT) chSubject: Re: Jhora 7.02 vs Swiss Ephemeris