Guest guest Posted April 29, 2005 Report Share Posted April 29, 2005 Dear Natalcharts_biz Who are you? Can you identify yourself? What is your birth data? Send me private mail, if you cannot post here M.Sharma (I also post under another id (chitra2pada), depending on where I am) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 29, 2005 Report Share Posted April 29, 2005 Dear Sri Pathakji I fully agree with your views. My apologies to you on my comments. However, they were not to speak against Sourav but to bring about the fact that each one is bound to a certain extent to the grahas and their interactions between the two charts which define relationships. And therefore, each one should be given a chance to speak like Mark did. He has not written against or for something, just what he believes is right. Secondly, why do some people here consider that they have a superior understanding of the subject? By having a strong belief you can hardly call yourself an astrologer. Can't a master learn from a disciple? Is it not explained in our sastras that wise can even learn from insentient things? To Sourav, I never described Saturn's effect on the moon while you gave us a lecture on the same. You prove my point. Thanks. But I haven't written against you: if you do not have the traits that I mentioned I think you are blessed. If you do, then it is best to tackle them at the earliest if you so wish. If you read with a calm mind, the post is all about freedom of expression and I found it very strange that in an open forum Mark's views were attacked. If you do not agree, you could ask him questions or ignore him. The same can be done to my views. You can ignore them if you want. Furthermore, Sourav what you call as my sarcastic statement: IT was a statement of great Teacher Sri Ramakrishna Paramhansa that those who are empty of knowledge have maximum disturbance at any influx of a circumstance. I have no ill feelings towards anyone and like you said I hardly know you to have ill feelings towards you. It was to help you understand that reactiveness shows weakness. What you have learnt from your Gurus may be true for you. But please do not try to stamp it on me. I am an independent being. Some questions for you Sourav. Give Scientific proofs and not just reference from any text. Anyone who quotes Einstein does not become one: 1. Why is the nature of the planets the way it is? Why is the nature of Rasis the way it is? Who designed them in this way? What intelligence lies behind all this facade? 2. Why is graha dristi less powerful than rasi dristhi? 3. Is Astrology a means to an end or an end in itself? 4. Do you really believe that there is no more learning possible for you? There is a lot of astrology to be learnt and found out. I will not close myself to any thought from any person, you are free to choose you own stance. Hari Om Tat Sat vedic astrology, "utpal pathak" <vedic_pathak> wrote: > Dear Sir, > > Though I have pulled-out from almost all the arguments, i could not > resist to comment on this one. > > It was very bad on your part to request Mr. sourav for his birthdate > (you even asked to give on personal mail) and then start discussing, > on open forum, his weaknesses(??)(as sited to your ego). this > violates basic code of conduct as a human. > > i hope, atleast this thing doesn't get repeated. > > best regards, > > Utpal > > vedic astrology, "Sourav Chowdhury" > <souravc108> wrote: > > || Hare Rama Krishna || > > || Om Gurave Namah || > > > > Dear Natalcharts_biz, > > > > Namaskar. Nice attempt at analysis of my mind > > reaction. My comments below: > > > > 1. Graha drishti is not the only consideration. Rasi drishti is more > > important as it is a life-long effect. Courage comes from the third > > house (Leo) that is giving its full aspect to my fifth house where > > Moon recides. Saturn is giving its full 3rd aspect from the same > > house on Moon. Saturn being the co-lord of the 9H of dharma or > > righteousness brings that effect too. > > > > 2. What you have seen as my attacking nature is a perception of me > > and hence you should judge it from Arudhas. If Arudhas do not > > confirm your conclusion, don't go for it because if may be that you > > are seeing something and deciding something based on what you are > > seeing but not acknowledging what you are seeing. Besides, you have > > only known me for a week or two and only over a couple of e-mails. > > Hence, don't judge me from houses themselves, and try to understand > > arudhas. > > > > 3. A few days ago I asked you one question: I said that I have A3 in > > Aries. What it means ? You avoided answering the question and in > > reply gave this bit of sarcasm: " empty vessels sounds much ". A3 in > > Aries shows that a person's writings will be "perceived as" full of > > martian energy and to some it may appear as attacking. > > > > > > I didn't go about vilifying you for your previous response. I > > understand there are different natures of persons and Lord manifests > > in everything. I never attack a person, I attack ideas which I find > > wrong. My nature lends me the courage. Understand your own self > > before understanding others and announcing your such opinions in a > > public forum. > > > > > > Regards, > > > > Sourav > > =================================================================== > > > > > > vedic astrology, "natalcharts_biz" > > <natalcharts_biz> wrote: > > > Some correction of Typos, Please excuse: > > > > > > I agree with Mark. This is a discussion group on Jyotish. If > > members > > > only want to change others to "their ideas or beliefs" on Jyotish, > > > then, they show their own weakness not to give enough freedom or > > > respect to others. > > > > > > Without naming, someone also mentioned about using Jyotish > > estorically > > > is wrong. In this view, I would like to remind that Jyotish is a > > > Vedanga. Vedanga is a means to study the Veda. The words Veda > means > > > knowledge and it is a pramaana (Sri Adi Sankara) that whatever > that > > > is, is Brahman (Truth, Sat Chit Ananda). > > > > > > Therefore Jyotish becomes a means to know that. The Vedas talk > > about > > > the self binding due to ignorance of Truth. Jyotish helps us > > > understand the bindings (grahas as seizers have that effect)and > > gives > > > us anti dotes to come out of it. > > > > > > That it enables us to see future effects of bindings is extra > > option. > > > Like I asked for Sourav's birth details the other day: I found > him > > to > > > be overreactive to people's thoughts and suggestions. In reaction, > > > many people also reacted back at him. I found his mind (moon) > > aspected > > > both by Mars and Saturn. And Mars is debilitated and therefore > > Sourav > > > is prone to thinking that any person not agreeing to his view > > point is > > > an adversary. It does not come from courage but comes from his > > > thinking that he would lose this battle of words and therefore, > his > > > own low self esteem gets lower (debilitated Mangal). He, > therefore, > > > requires > > > continuous good appraisal from other friends and "masters", which > > keep > > > him happy. > > > > > > He, is thus bound by it and reacts. Yet, he has lessened his > > reacting > > > since he has come in touch with his Guru. This is a fact that only > > > Sourav can confirm. Guru, being a badhaka (taking lagna to be > > gemini > > > and I choose not to correct it), has bound his reactive nature and > > > created a badhana to that expression. So one bandan causes > reaction > > > and the other stalls it. > > > > > > I also would like to say something to those who reacted to his > > > statements. By understanding jyotish, you all need not have > > reacted to > > > his stance for he is governed by grahas too (to the extent he > lets > > them) > > > > > > I choose to leave such an analysis here and now but pray to the > > > subtler intellect of all members to let everyone speak their know- > > how. > > > It will only add to the learning. > > > > > > Hari Om Tat Sat > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > vedic astrology, Mark Kincaid > > <m.kincaid@m...> > > > > wrote: > > > > > Dear Mu: > > > > > > > > > > Well, this is obviously where we differ. > > > > > > > > > > In fact, you don't have to take advantage of my perspective > or > > my > > > ideas. > > > > > > > > > > It's really not up to you, really to judge or to critize. > > > > > > > > > > But, I'll say this, because you seem to not be able to get > > away from > > > > your > > > > > own Mars in Virgo, propensity to continually critizize, > > > > > > > > > > I'll say, I am following my heart with reference to Jyotish, > > > > > > > > > > and especially I'm following my Guru's prompts. > > > > > > > > > > I am a student of his Holiness Maharishi Mahesh Yogi, who is > > one > > > of the > > > > > most fascinating and unique scholoars of all Vedic Science, > > and he > > > > himself, > > > > > has followed a path of what he calls: "enlivening and > > revising, this > > > > > ancient Wisdom." > > > > > > > > > > I'm also coming from a deeply, transformative aspect of Vedic > > Science, > > > > > which stems from my over 35 years of transcendental > experience. > > > > > > > > > > My Maharishi has often said there are a number of very > > important > > > > present day > > > > > aspects of Ved that are incorrect or mistaken. > > > > > > > > > > One of the most important is that it's very difficult to > > evolve, and > > > > very > > > > > hard to find enlightenment. > > > > > > > > > > In this regard he has said his re-interpretation and insight > > into > > > > the nature > > > > > of meditation, has completely changed and begun a process of > > complete > > > > > re-understanding as to the value, scope and possibilities of > > > meditation. > > > > > > > > > > Likewise, Maharishi has spent many years now, working with > > each of > > > > the Vedic > > > > > Sciences, and where it's been necessary helping the Vedic > > Pundits and > > > > > Scholars re-work, and revitalize this ancient wisdom. > > > > > > > > > > I'll mention one example of yaguas. Yaguas have been there > > > forever, in > > > > > Indian culture and are described as very beneficial Vedic > > > > performances to > > > > > improve the quality of life of individuals and society as a > > whole. > > > > > > > > > > However, Maharishi has said the success of these performances > > and of > > > > yaguas > > > > > has been lacking because the key to their success has been > > lacking. > > > > > > > > > > The key, according to Maharishi has been the inner > > consciousness > > > of the > > > > > Vedic pundits. But, because the enlivenment of the field of > > pure > > > > awareness > > > > > has not been there, then the performances have not been as > > > successful as > > > > > possible. > > > > > > > > > > Maharishi has put attention on all the Vedic Sciences > including > > > > Ghandharva, > > > > > Yoga, Stapyaved, and even Jyotish. > > > > > > > > > > And, though I'm not formally working for the Maharish's World- > > wide > > > > movement, > > > > > I can honestly say, my development and insights into Jyotish > > come > > > > from this > > > > > unique development in the entire field of Vedic Science. > > > > > > > > > > Now, you are free to enjoy and appreciate or not my Jyotish, > > just > > > > like I can > > > > > feel one way or another about 'yours'. > > > > > > > > > > However, I would suggest you put your attention on your own > > > Jyotish, and > > > > > leave your so-called constructive criticisms to God. > > > > > > > > > > I would also suggest if you don't appreciate my Jyotish that > > you > > > > leave the > > > > > that I've created since we don't seem to be able > > to > > > > converse, > > > > > without this rancor, and irritableness which I don't > especially > > > > appreciate. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sincerely, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mark Kincaid > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mu'Min Bey <mumin_bey> > > > > > > panastroforum@t... > > > > > > Thu, 28 Apr 2005 09:22:03 -0700 (PDT) > > > > > > , Vedic Astrology > > > > > > <vedic astrology>, "Jyotish Remedies..." > > > > > > <>, "b) " > > > > > > <>, panastroforum@t... > > > > > > Open Letter to Mark Kincaid On Vedic Astrological > > > > Matters, Etc. > > > > > > > > > > > > Your free subscription is supported by today's sponsor: > > > > > > --------------------------- > - > > ------ > > > > > > Erase wrinkles without Botox! > > > > > > Nexiderm SP is clinically proven to reduce wrinkles by 68%. > > Click > > > > > > here to start looking younger today! > > > > > > http://click.topica.com/caadslIbUrFgkb7vZsVa/Nexiderm > > > > > > --------------------------- > - > > ------ > > > > > > > > > > > > Open Letter to Mark Kincaid On Vedic Astrological > > > > > > Matters, Etc. > > > > > > > > > > > > 11:55 AM 4/27/05 Wed > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Mark, > > > > > > > > > > > > I have watched your activities for some time, mostly > > > > > > with a good degree of dismay. I say that because of > > > > > > the general tenor and tone of your writings and so on, > > > > > > which is more and more becoming eblematic of Vedic > > > > > > Astrology in the West/USA; in other words, they're > > > > > > becoming bascially, Jyotish in Western Astrology drag. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > More and more jyotishis in the West have taken to > > > > > > aping their Western Astrology "betters" by adopting > > > > > > the aforementioned thinking, which you speak so > > > > > > glowingly of in your most recent "ad"; > > > > > > "self-improvement". > > > > > > > > > > > > Without question, Vedic Astrology recognizes > > > > > > self-improvement as much as any of the branches of > > > > > > Western Astrology does; but Jyotish also recognizes > > > > > > that there are some things in this life that cannot be > > > > > > avoided, and indeed, much of Jyotish's philosophical > > > > > > framework operates on this idea. Therefore, although a > > > > > > person may be able to use a "remedy" to avoid the more > > > > > > uglier aspects of a particular combination, it may be > > > > > > better for that person in the long run to endure the > > > > > > results of said combination, for the betterment of > > > > > > that person later on down the line. > > > > > > > > > > > > Having intensely involved with Vedic Astrology since > > > > > > the late 90s, I have watched as more and more American > > > > > > Vedic astrologers basically copying the thinking and > > > > > > even methods of the Western astrologers (aside from > > > > > > the "quick fix remedy" approaches, the increasing use > > > > > > of Western Outer Planets in the Vedic horoscope and so > > > > > > on). Perhaps even more disturbing, is this tendency on > > > > > > the part of so many American jyotishis to have a > > > > > > "hippie" type of approach, where all manner of new age > > > > > > mysticism is brought into what the vast majority of > > > > > > Indians consider to be a rather straightfoward affair > > > > > > - going to see an astrologer and getting no-nonsense > > > > > > information and answers to life's everyday problems. > > > > > > > > > > > > Being one that seems to have some level of > > > > > > understanding of India, you surely must know that > > > > > > Indians rarely seek out jyotishis for "the meaning of > > > > > > life". About a third of all my clients are IN India, > > > > > > and in some 6 years, I have yet to have one ask me for > > > > > > such info. In the main, their concerns fall into > > > > > > pretty distinct, and I would say, mundane, areas: > > > > > > > > > > > > 1. Marital prospects, either for themselves and/or > > > > > > their kids > > > > > > > > > > > > 2. Business concerns, which often includes > > > > > > educational, career, licensing and/or immigration > > > > > > concerns > > > > > > > > > > > > 3. Health concerns, which usually concerns the onset > > > > > > and duration of a particular ailment or disease. > > > > > > > > > > > > The argument is often raised here in the States that > > > > > > people here want to understand themselves and the > > > > > > like, but again, my own experience on the ground, > > > > > > since the early 90s (when I began my Western Astrology > > > > > > studies) controverts this. In the main, my native born > > > > > > clientele aren't that much different from my off-shore > > > > > > clients - they pretty much want the same things. > > > > > > > > > > > > In short, it is my contention that so many of the > > > > > > American born jyotishis simply "want" to inject their > > > > > > own spiritual opinions and the like. Most Americans > > > > > > have no interest in such things. > > > > > > > > > > > > Among the many problems I have with you, Mr. Kincaid, > > > > > > is that you continually stray from the heart of > > > > > > Jyotish, with your long and meandering writings about > > > > > > the planets, and how one is supposed to "work" with > > > > > > them in the way Western modern astrologers advocate; > > > > > > one is hard pressed to find such support in either the > > > > > > Jyotish classics or in the more modern writings of > > > > > > such people as KN Rao or BV Raman, etc. While reading > > > > > > your writings, it is difficult to grasp what you are > > > > > > advocating, a Vedic or Western astrological approach. > > > > > > > > > > > > Furthermore, I find less and less your writing having > > > > > > to do with actual research and observation - areas > > > > > > that would demand brevity of expression and accuracy > > > > > > as a prerequisite - but more about speculation and > > > > > > flights of fancy; you don't use preceedant (classical > > > > > > or modern) to backup your writings and the like, but > > > > > > rather "individualism" as your authority - something > > > > > > that is clearly at variance with any Jyotishical > > > > > > teaching (but is the rage in Western modern astrology, > > > > > > where anything can mean anything to anyone; this why > > > > > > Western astrologers can't agree on basic things like > > > > > > Saturn Retrograde, for example). On several occasions > > > > > > in your forum, we have gone back and forth on this > > > > > > point, to which you have yet to respond with any > > > > > > actual studies, research or case examples to back up > > > > > > your ruminations. Such things are not only outside the > > > > > > Jyotish canon, theory and practice, but also puts it > > > > > > at greater risk for "anybody" to just come in and do > > > > > > their thing. Here in the USA, the quick fix is in, and > > > > > > anything that smacks of doing the harder work of > > > > > > study, reflection and experience is eschewed in the > > > > > > name of rapidity and indulgence without consequences. > > > > > > All of this is anathema to Jyotish practice and > > > > > > thought. > > > > > > > > > > > > The other problem I have with you is in your continual > > > > > > "hawking" of your products and services. Many native > > > > > > born jyotishis, including Rao and Raman, have had > > > > > > choice words for those who would market their > > > > > > services. I tend to be deeply suspicious of such > > > > > > people, for my own experience has shown me that those > > > > > > who give their Jyotish knowledge without thought of > > > > > > reward, tend to be far and away more accurate and to > > > > > > the point than those who don't. > > > > > > > > > > > > It is my hope that you put your energy more into focus > > > > > > on the heart of Jyotish, where it is my contention you > > > > > > are likely to make the most impact. On the present > > > > > > course, your and other's actions only serve to muddy > > > > > > the already murky waters of the Astrological science > > > > > > and how it's seen by the public. > > > > > > > > > > > > Salaam, > > > > > > Mu > > > > > > > > > > > > --- Mark Kincaid <m.kincaid@m...> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > >> Become Your Own Best > > > > > >> Astrologer! > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> A friend of mine mentioned to me the other day, that > > > > > >> it's recently > > > > > >> been projected that the "4th most in-demand, job, in > > > > > >> the future, will > > > > > >> be Astrologers." > > > > > >> > > > > > >> I laughed when I heard that. I think it might be > > > > > >> true! > > > > > >> Certainly it's been my experience that becoming a > > > > > >> professional Astrologer, > > > > > >> is the best thing I've ever done. I used to be a > > > > > >> Meditation teacher, which > > > > > >> I loved a lot. However, when I discovered > > > > > >> Astrology, I found an even more > > > > > >> comprehensive knowledge that actually incorporates > > > > > >> every aspect of life. > > > > > >> > > > > > >> See, not everyone's ready for, quote: 'meditation', > > > > > >> or a spiritual life. > > > > > >> Most > > > > > >> people just want to become a greater success, in > > > > > >> this life! > > > > > >> > > > > > >> Well, Astrology understands that and has in fact, > > > > > >> very insightful things > > > > > >> to say for any individual that wants to become more > > > > > >> of a success in life. > > > > > >> > > > > > >> All of us, in these Astrology 'groups' are learning > > > > > >> such amazing things re- > > > > > >> lated to Astrology and life. > > > > > >> > > > > > >> #1, the symbolisms of Astrology, 'fit'! In fact, > > > > > >> there's a very precise > > > > > >> 1to1 > > > > > >> Correspondence between all the details of our live's > > > > > >> and our Astrological > > > > > >> charts. > > > > > >> This is what's underlying all our questions and > > > > > >> answers, and what it means > > > > > >> to have the Moon in the 3rd house, with Mars & > > > > > >> Venus. Or, why am I so > > > > > >> unconventionally creative? Or, why do I have so > > > > > >> many accidents? Or, why > > > > > >> am I attracted to engineering? Or, why do I have > > > > > >> tensions with my Mother, > > > > > >> but not my Father? Or, why do I ......? > > > > > >> > > > > > >> For every conceivable question; there's a clear and > > > > > >> precise Astrological > > > > > >> reason! > > > > > >> > > > > > >> This fact, alone, is why Astrology has continued for > > > > > >> all these centuries. > > > > > >> It Works! > > > > > >> > > > > > >> Each one of us, however, needs to know this. > > > > > >> > > > > > >> In the past, it was enough to just go to a > > > > > >> professional Astrologer, whenever > > > > > >> we > > > > > >> had questions, or problems in our life. Now, > > > > > >> millions of individuals are > > > > > >> wanting > > > > > >> to know their own Astrology, for themselves! > > > > > >> > > > > > >> In this spirit I am starting a new , that > > > > > >> will be totally focused > > > > > >> on > > > > > >> learning each and every aspect of our Astrology. It > > > > > >> will be primarily > > > > > >> Jyotish, or > > > > > >> Eastern Astrology, based, though many of the best > > > > > >> ideas of Western > > > > > >> Astrology, > > > > > >> including the possibility that our Astrology is also > > > > > >> about our futures, and > > > > > >> latent > > > > > >> opportunities, in life, will also be discussed. > > > > > >> > > > > > >> #2 This leads me to my second point. Astrology > > > > > >> traditionally has been > > > > > >> about > > > > > >> one's 'fate' or pre-determinism. In other words, it > > > > > >> was based very strongly > > > > > >> in the > > > > > >> feeling that this life, that our Astrology charts, > > > > > >> are mostly about the > > > > > >> things that 'will' happen. > > > > > >> > > > > > >> I remember when I first started studying Jyotish way > > > > > >> back in 1988. Every > > > > > >> book you'd pick up would have approximately 195 > > > > > >> pages on the Astrology, or > > > > > >> how > > > > > >> our charts fit us. And, then, at the very end, 5 > > > > > >> pages on something called > > > > > >> Remedial > > > > > >> Measures. Almost like an afterthought, I thought, > > > > > >> tacked on at the end. > > > > > >> > > > > > >> Even back then, I thought this percentage was very > > > > > >> imbalanced. Perhaps it > > > > > >> was > > > > > >> because of my strong, meditative background. Even > > > > > >> in 1988, I'd already been > > > > > >> meditating for over 18 years and growing in all the > > > > > >> values of profound > > > > > >> self-improvement. > > > > > >> > > > > > >> So, the idea of Jyotish remedial measures, of course > > > > > >> made sense. Over the > > > > > >> years, > > > > > >> however, I realized the % was all wrong. Eventually > > > > > >> I realized it should be > > > > > >> more like, > > > > > >> 50/50! It's not enough to just intellectually > > > > > >> 'understand' why we're the > > > > > >> way we are. > > > > > >> The nature of human life, includes the fact that we > > > > > >> want to grow. We want > > > > > >> to improve > > > > > >> ourselves, and accomplish certain things, which are > > > > > >> really about the > > > > > >> 'transformative' > > > > > >> side to life. 2% is not nearly enough! > > > > > >> > > > > > >> Now, many years later, I realize even spending 50% > > > > > >> of your time, discovering > > > > > >> why > > > > > >> we're the way we are, is not really necessary. Now > > > > > >> I understand one needs > > > > > >> to spend, > > > > > >> only as much time, figuring out the 'whys' of > > > > > >> Astrology; till one desires > > > > > >> the ability to > > > > > >> change. > > > > > >> > > > > > >> Today, I constantly run into people, who after just > > > > > >> one conversation about > > > > > >> how their > > > > > >> Saturn or Mars, or Rahu, is causing their problems; > > > > > >> then say: "Okay!, What > > > > > >> can I do > > > > > >> to improve my Saturn!" Maybe it should be more like > > > > > >> 30/70%. Spend 30% of > > > > > >> your time > > > > > >> figuring out 'why' and then spend 70% of one's time > > > > > >> and energy, in improving > > > > > >> the > > > > > >> malefics, in our charts! > > > > > >> > > > > > >> Whatever the percentage, the age of self-improvement > > > > > >> is upon us, and > > > > > >> Astrology can > > > > > >> lead the way. However, Astrology needs to stop > > > > > >> becoming so wrapped up in > > > > > >> 'fate' and > > > > > >> pre-destiny, and begin focusing on transformation > > > > > >> and self-development. > > > > > >> > > > > > >> It's really what we're here to do. We're not here, > > > > > >> to just go through the > > > > > >> motions, and > > > > > >> live our lives, from a level of puppet, > > > > > >> pre-determinism. No! We're meant > > > > > >> to grow. > > > > > >> We're meant to evolve. The fascinating thing is, we > > > > > >> can still choose, to > > > > > >> evolve more slowly. > > > > > >> But, the 'choice' is up to us! > > > > > >> > > > > > >> #2 Therefore the second most important aspect of > > > > > >> Jyotish and Astrology is > > > > > >> self-improvement. > > > > > >> I like the word transformation because some say that > > > > > >> Jyotish/Astrology rules > > > > > >> the 8th house. > > > > > >> And some like to describe the 8th house, not as > > > > > >> fate, or death, or 'fixed' > > > > > >> qualities, like obsessions, > > > > > >> and addictions. Some call the 8th house, the house > > > > > >> of transformation! > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> Look at the United State's chart. Several very > > > > > >> important planets in the 8th > > > > > >> house of > > > > > >> self-transformation. And, if there was any quality > > > > > >> that has dominated the > > > > > >> life of America; > > > > > >> it's been self-improvement. > > > > > >> > > > > > >> In the early days it was progressing, rapidly across > > > > > >> the plains of America. > > > > > >> Later that thirst to grow, became more internalized > > > > > >> and > > > > > > === message truncated === > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mu'Min M. Bey > > > > > > Western and Vedic Astrologer > > > > > > Check out my site: > > > > > > muminbey.tripod.com > > > > > > "The Future of Astrology, is Here..." > > > > > > AOL IM Screen Name: JediMu > > > > > > Join the Pan Astrological Forum, Where Freedom in > > Astrological > > > > Thought Lives! > > > > > > Just send a blank email to panastroforum-@t... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Tired of spam? Mail has the best spam protection > > around > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Your free subscription is supported by today's sponsor: > > > > > > --------------------------- > - > > ------ > > > > > > Buy Stocks and Index Funds for just $4 No Account or > > > > > > Investment Minimums and No Inactivity Fees Automatically > > > > > > invest weekly or monthly and build your future. > > > > > > http://click.topica.com/caadlVFbUrFgkb7vZsVf/Sharebuilder > > > > > > --------------------------- > - > > ------ > > > > > > > > > > > > --^------------------------ > - > > ------ > > > > > > This email was sent to: m.kincaid@m... > > > > > > > > > > > > EASY UNSUBSCRIBE > > > > http://topica.com/u/?bUrFgk.b7vZsV.bS5raW5j > > > > > > Or send an email to: panastroforum-@t... > > > > > > > > > > > > For Topica's complete suite of email marketing solutions > > visit: > > > > > > http://www.topica.com/?p=TEXFOOTER > > > > > > --^------------------------ > - > > ------ > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 29, 2005 Report Share Posted April 29, 2005 Dear Manjunath I am a student of Vedanta, Tantra and Zen Buddhism with interest in Astrology and I help the National Geographic channel in building programs on such subjects. That is my notional identity. I do not have a birth data as it was never recorded but i still sometimes try and draw a chart for myself by looking at the variety of thoughts and emotions that come to me, but fail miserably. Maybe the Lord does not want me to follow the dictates of the planets. Best Regards vedic astrology, "Manjunath Sharma" <mssumich> wrote: > Dear Natalcharts_biz > Who are you? > Can you identify yourself? > What is your birth data? > Send me private mail, if you cannot post here > > M.Sharma > (I also post under another id (chitra2pada), depending on where I am) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 29, 2005 Report Share Posted April 29, 2005 || Hare Rama Krishna || Dear Natalcharts_biz, Namaskar. Thank you for your apologies. I am sure they are well meant and I sure hope you understand your own limitations. The fact that planets have their bearings need to be retold by Mark and you and such like new age prophets ??? The whole Vedanga Jyotish system is based on that. I hope you don't start kidding yourself stating that Mark and you are the first person to state that Mars and Saturn have this or that effect on Moon. Mark has been given a lot of fancy talk on transits and life, I do read his e-mails and find them not worth reading. They are mostly big dissapointments. But I don't mind them as he is a member and he has every right to write whatever he feels like. But what he does is that he invites persons from here into his paid internet courses. I call this advertisement and that too in a very subtle form. Many novice astrologers, who do not have foresight and proper association can accept such a paid offer and loose money. But I didnt name his name in my email to MuMin and list members -- I merely mentioned that I and very much against such activities. Your negative intentions in your earlier email are very very clear; so very clear that no amount of apologies can change their true color. I have read and still been reading Sri Ramakrishna's messages. His life and mesage is regarded as a Living Book that encompasses all of Vedas into One. Empty vessels do sound hollow. But earlier I asked you a question : what is A3 in Aries mean ? Don't kid me and others telling that your quoted proverb is an appropriate reply to that. Your sarcasm was very evident ! The basis of Jyotish is the philosophy of Vedas. Planets dont force us do somethings, instead they resemble our short-comings. But this list is meant to discuss vedanga jyotish and not fancy marketable philosophy. If that is allowed the attention will be shifted from understanding the basics of jyotish into philosophy. Philosophy brings personal ideas and perspectives. They should be carefully avoided. I still am wondering what planetary combinations caused you to take such a personal stance and use my birth data and give such a partial reading. If you gave a good reading encompassing all the important aspects of astrology, I would have nothing to say. But you constantly harped on debilitated Mars and Moon and badhaka to colorize your statement and make it full of negative connotations. Whereas you should go to arudhas and tried to gauge that significance first. There is plenty of well known examples of personas you could choose to drive you meager point home. But no ! you chose my name and my data and used your understanding that I attack people out of a sense of insecurity. That is INEXCUSABLE. It speaks volumes of you are a person and your understanding of real philosophy. And this also shows why "little learning can be dangerous" and shows the pitfalls of limited learning and application of astrology. In essence, your reading is no more worthwhile to read that Sun Sign astrology they publish in women's magazines. But finally looking back, I don't mind -- someone's littleness should not affect me. Jai Ma Sourav vedic astrology, "natalcharts_biz" <natalcharts_biz> wrote: > Dear Sri Pathakji > > I fully agree with your views. My apologies to you on my comments. > > However, they were not to speak against Sourav but to bring about the > fact that each one is bound to a certain extent to the grahas and > their interactions between the two charts which define relationships. > > And therefore, each one should be given a chance to speak like Mark > did. He has not written against or for something, just what he > believes is right. > > Secondly, why do some people here consider that they have a superior > understanding of the subject? By having a strong belief you can hardly > call yourself an astrologer. Can't a master learn from a disciple? > Is it not explained in our sastras that wise can even learn from > insentient things? > > To Sourav, I never described Saturn's effect on the moon while you > gave us a lecture on the same. You prove my point. Thanks. But I > haven't written against you: if you do not have the traits that I > mentioned I think you are blessed. If you do, then it is best to > tackle them at the earliest if you so wish. > > If you read with a calm mind, the post is all about freedom of > expression and I found it very strange that in an open forum Mark's > views were attacked. If you do not agree, you could ask him questions > or ignore him. > > The same can be done to my views. You can ignore them if you want. > > Furthermore, Sourav what you call as my sarcastic statement: IT was a > statement of great Teacher Sri Ramakrishna Paramhansa that those who > are empty of knowledge have maximum disturbance at any influx of a > circumstance. I have no ill feelings towards anyone and like you said > I hardly know you to have ill feelings towards you. It was to help you > understand that reactiveness shows weakness. > > What you have learnt from your Gurus may be true for you. But please > do not try to stamp it on me. I am an independent being. > > Some questions for you Sourav. Give Scientific proofs and not just > reference from any text. Anyone who quotes Einstein does not become one: > 1. Why is the nature of the planets the way it is? Why is the nature > of Rasis the way it is? Who designed them in this way? What > intelligence lies behind all this facade? > 2. Why is graha dristi less powerful than rasi dristhi? > 3. Is Astrology a means to an end or an end in itself? > 4. Do you really believe that there is no more learning possible for you? > > There is a lot of astrology to be learnt and found out. I will not > close myself to any thought from any person, you are free to choose > you own stance. > > Hari Om Tat Sat > vedic astrology, "utpal pathak" > <vedic_pathak> wrote: > > Dear Sir, > > > > Though I have pulled-out from almost all the arguments, i could not > > resist to comment on this one. > > > > It was very bad on your part to request Mr. sourav for his birthdate > > (you even asked to give on personal mail) and then start discussing, > > on open forum, his weaknesses(??)(as sited to your ego). this > > violates basic code of conduct as a human. > > > > i hope, atleast this thing doesn't get repeated. > > > > best regards, > > > > Utpal > > > > vedic astrology, "Sourav Chowdhury" > > <souravc108> wrote: > > > || Hare Rama Krishna || > > > || Om Gurave Namah || > > > > > > Dear Natalcharts_biz, > > > > > > Namaskar. Nice attempt at analysis of my mind > > > reaction. My comments below: > > > > > > 1. Graha drishti is not the only consideration. Rasi drishti is more > > > important as it is a life-long effect. Courage comes from the third > > > house (Leo) that is giving its full aspect to my fifth house where > > > Moon recides. Saturn is giving its full 3rd aspect from the same > > > house on Moon. Saturn being the co-lord of the 9H of dharma or > > > righteousness brings that effect too. > > > > > > 2. What you have seen as my attacking nature is a perception of me > > > and hence you should judge it from Arudhas. If Arudhas do not > > > confirm your conclusion, don't go for it because if may be that you > > > are seeing something and deciding something based on what you are > > > seeing but not acknowledging what you are seeing. Besides, you have > > > only known me for a week or two and only over a couple of e- mails. > > > Hence, don't judge me from houses themselves, and try to understand > > > arudhas. > > > > > > 3. A few days ago I asked you one question: I said that I have A3 in > > > Aries. What it means ? You avoided answering the question and in > > > reply gave this bit of sarcasm: " empty vessels sounds much ". A3 in > > > Aries shows that a person's writings will be "perceived as" full of > > > martian energy and to some it may appear as attacking. > > > > > > > > > I didn't go about vilifying you for your previous response. I > > > understand there are different natures of persons and Lord manifests > > > in everything. I never attack a person, I attack ideas which I find > > > wrong. My nature lends me the courage. Understand your own self > > > before understanding others and announcing your such opinions in a > > > public forum. > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > Sourav > > > =================================================================== > > > > > > > > > vedic astrology, "natalcharts_biz" > > > <natalcharts_biz> wrote: > > > > Some correction of Typos, Please excuse: > > > > > > > > I agree with Mark. This is a discussion group on Jyotish. If > > > members > > > > only want to change others to "their ideas or beliefs" on Jyotish, > > > > then, they show their own weakness not to give enough freedom or > > > > respect to others. > > > > > > > > Without naming, someone also mentioned about using Jyotish > > > estorically > > > > is wrong. In this view, I would like to remind that Jyotish is a > > > > Vedanga. Vedanga is a means to study the Veda. The words Veda > > means > > > > knowledge and it is a pramaana (Sri Adi Sankara) that whatever > > that > > > > is, is Brahman (Truth, Sat Chit Ananda). > > > > > > > > Therefore Jyotish becomes a means to know that. The Vedas talk > > > about > > > > the self binding due to ignorance of Truth. Jyotish helps us > > > > understand the bindings (grahas as seizers have that effect) and > > > gives > > > > us anti dotes to come out of it. > > > > > > > > That it enables us to see future effects of bindings is extra > > > option. > > > > Like I asked for Sourav's birth details the other day: I found > > him > > > to > > > > be overreactive to people's thoughts and suggestions. In reaction, > > > > many people also reacted back at him. I found his mind (moon) > > > aspected > > > > both by Mars and Saturn. And Mars is debilitated and therefore > > > Sourav > > > > is prone to thinking that any person not agreeing to his view > > > point is > > > > an adversary. It does not come from courage but comes from his > > > > thinking that he would lose this battle of words and therefore, > > his > > > > own low self esteem gets lower (debilitated Mangal). He, > > therefore, > > > > requires > > > > continuous good appraisal from other friends and "masters", which > > > keep > > > > him happy. > > > > > > > > He, is thus bound by it and reacts. Yet, he has lessened his > > > reacting > > > > since he has come in touch with his Guru. This is a fact that only > > > > Sourav can confirm. Guru, being a badhaka (taking lagna to be > > > gemini > > > > and I choose not to correct it), has bound his reactive nature and > > > > created a badhana to that expression. So one bandan causes > > reaction > > > > and the other stalls it. > > > > > > > > I also would like to say something to those who reacted to his > > > > statements. By understanding jyotish, you all need not have > > > reacted to > > > > his stance for he is governed by grahas too (to the extent he > > lets > > > them) > > > > > > > > I choose to leave such an analysis here and now but pray to the > > > > subtler intellect of all members to let everyone speak their know- > > > how. > > > > It will only add to the learning. > > > > > > > > Hari Om Tat Sat > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > vedic astrology, Mark Kincaid > > > <m.kincaid@m...> > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > Dear Mu: > > > > > > > > > > > > Well, this is obviously where we differ. > > > > > > > > > > > > In fact, you don't have to take advantage of my perspective > > or > > > my > > > > ideas. > > > > > > > > > > > > It's really not up to you, really to judge or to critize. > > > > > > > > > > > > But, I'll say this, because you seem to not be able to get > > > away from > > > > > your > > > > > > own Mars in Virgo, propensity to continually critizize, > > > > > > > > > > > > I'll say, I am following my heart with reference to Jyotish, > > > > > > > > > > > > and especially I'm following my Guru's prompts. > > > > > > > > > > > > I am a student of his Holiness Maharishi Mahesh Yogi, who is > > > one > > > > of the > > > > > > most fascinating and unique scholoars of all Vedic Science, > > > and he > > > > > himself, > > > > > > has followed a path of what he calls: "enlivening and > > > revising, this > > > > > > ancient Wisdom." > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm also coming from a deeply, transformative aspect of Vedic > > > Science, > > > > > > which stems from my over 35 years of transcendental > > experience. > > > > > > > > > > > > My Maharishi has often said there are a number of very > > > important > > > > > present day > > > > > > aspects of Ved that are incorrect or mistaken. > > > > > > > > > > > > One of the most important is that it's very difficult to > > > evolve, and > > > > > very > > > > > > hard to find enlightenment. > > > > > > > > > > > > In this regard he has said his re-interpretation and insight > > > into > > > > > the nature > > > > > > of meditation, has completely changed and begun a process of > > > complete > > > > > > re-understanding as to the value, scope and possibilities of > > > > meditation. > > > > > > > > > > > > Likewise, Maharishi has spent many years now, working with > > > each of > > > > > the Vedic > > > > > > Sciences, and where it's been necessary helping the Vedic > > > Pundits and > > > > > > Scholars re-work, and revitalize this ancient wisdom. > > > > > > > > > > > > I'll mention one example of yaguas. Yaguas have been there > > > > forever, in > > > > > > Indian culture and are described as very beneficial Vedic > > > > > performances to > > > > > > improve the quality of life of individuals and society as a > > > whole. > > > > > > > > > > > > However, Maharishi has said the success of these performances > > > and of > > > > > yaguas > > > > > > has been lacking because the key to their success has been > > > lacking. > > > > > > > > > > > > The key, according to Maharishi has been the inner > > > consciousness > > > > of the > > > > > > Vedic pundits. But, because the enlivenment of the field of > > > pure > > > > > awareness > > > > > > has not been there, then the performances have not been as > > > > successful as > > > > > > possible. > > > > > > > > > > > > Maharishi has put attention on all the Vedic Sciences > > including > > > > > Ghandharva, > > > > > > Yoga, Stapyaved, and even Jyotish. > > > > > > > > > > > > And, though I'm not formally working for the Maharish's World- > > > wide > > > > > movement, > > > > > > I can honestly say, my development and insights into Jyotish > > > come > > > > > from this > > > > > > unique development in the entire field of Vedic Science. > > > > > > > > > > > > Now, you are free to enjoy and appreciate or not my Jyotish, > > > just > > > > > like I can > > > > > > feel one way or another about 'yours'. > > > > > > > > > > > > However, I would suggest you put your attention on your own > > > > Jyotish, and > > > > > > leave your so-called constructive criticisms to God. > > > > > > > > > > > > I would also suggest if you don't appreciate my Jyotish that > > > you > > > > > leave the > > > > > > that I've created since we don't seem to be able > > > to > > > > > converse, > > > > > > without this rancor, and irritableness which I don't > > especially > > > > > appreciate. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sincerely, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mark Kincaid > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mu'Min Bey <mumin_bey> > > > > > > > panastroforum@t... > > > > > > > Thu, 28 Apr 2005 09:22:03 -0700 (PDT) > > > > > > > , Vedic Astrology > > > > > > > <vedic astrology>, "Jyotish Remedies..." > > > > > > > <>, "b) " > > > > > > > <>, panastroforum@t... > > > > > > > Open Letter to Mark Kincaid On Vedic Astrological > > > > > Matters, Etc. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Your free subscription is supported by today's sponsor: > > > > > > > ---------------------- ----- > > - > > > ------ > > > > > > > Erase wrinkles without Botox! > > > > > > > Nexiderm SP is clinically proven to reduce wrinkles by 68%. > > > Click > > > > > > > here to start looking younger today! > > > > > > > http://click.topica.com/caadslIbUrFgkb7vZsVa/Nexiderm > > > > > > > ---------------------- ----- > > - > > > ------ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Open Letter to Mark Kincaid On Vedic Astrological > > > > > > > Matters, Etc. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 11:55 AM 4/27/05 Wed > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Mark, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I have watched your activities for some time, mostly > > > > > > > with a good degree of dismay. I say that because of > > > > > > > the general tenor and tone of your writings and so on, > > > > > > > which is more and more becoming eblematic of Vedic > > > > > > > Astrology in the West/USA; in other words, they're > > > > > > > becoming bascially, Jyotish in Western Astrology drag. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > More and more jyotishis in the West have taken to > > > > > > > aping their Western Astrology "betters" by adopting > > > > > > > the aforementioned thinking, which you speak so > > > > > > > glowingly of in your most recent "ad"; > > > > > > > "self-improvement". > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Without question, Vedic Astrology recognizes > > > > > > > self-improvement as much as any of the branches of > > > > > > > Western Astrology does; but Jyotish also recognizes > > > > > > > that there are some things in this life that cannot be > > > > > > > avoided, and indeed, much of Jyotish's philosophical > > > > > > > framework operates on this idea. Therefore, although a > > > > > > > person may be able to use a "remedy" to avoid the more > > > > > > > uglier aspects of a particular combination, it may be > > > > > > > better for that person in the long run to endure the > > > > > > > results of said combination, for the betterment of > > > > > > > that person later on down the line. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Having intensely involved with Vedic Astrology since > > > > > > > the late 90s, I have watched as more and more American > > > > > > > Vedic astrologers basically copying the thinking and > > > > > > > even methods of the Western astrologers (aside from > > > > > > > the "quick fix remedy" approaches, the increasing use > > > > > > > of Western Outer Planets in the Vedic horoscope and so > > > > > > > on). Perhaps even more disturbing, is this tendency on > > > > > > > the part of so many American jyotishis to have a > > > > > > > "hippie" type of approach, where all manner of new age > > > > > > > mysticism is brought into what the vast majority of > > > > > > > Indians consider to be a rather straightfoward affair > > > > > > > - going to see an astrologer and getting no-nonsense > > > > > > > information and answers to life's everyday problems. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Being one that seems to have some level of > > > > > > > understanding of India, you surely must know that > > > > > > > Indians rarely seek out jyotishis for "the meaning of > > > > > > > life". About a third of all my clients are IN India, > > > > > > > and in some 6 years, I have yet to have one ask me for > > > > > > > such info. In the main, their concerns fall into > > > > > > > pretty distinct, and I would say, mundane, areas: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1. Marital prospects, either for themselves and/or > > > > > > > their kids > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 2. Business concerns, which often includes > > > > > > > educational, career, licensing and/or immigration > > > > > > > concerns > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 3. Health concerns, which usually concerns the onset > > > > > > > and duration of a particular ailment or disease. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The argument is often raised here in the States that > > > > > > > people here want to understand themselves and the > > > > > > > like, but again, my own experience on the ground, > > > > > > > since the early 90s (when I began my Western Astrology > > > > > > > studies) controverts this. In the main, my native born > > > > > > > clientele aren't that much different from my off-shore > > > > > > > clients - they pretty much want the same things. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In short, it is my contention that so many of the > > > > > > > American born jyotishis simply "want" to inject their > > > > > > > own spiritual opinions and the like. Most Americans > > > > > > > have no interest in such things. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Among the many problems I have with you, Mr. Kincaid, > > > > > > > is that you continually stray from the heart of > > > > > > > Jyotish, with your long and meandering writings about > > > > > > > the planets, and how one is supposed to "work" with > > > > > > > them in the way Western modern astrologers advocate; > > > > > > > one is hard pressed to find such support in either the > > > > > > > Jyotish classics or in the more modern writings of > > > > > > > such people as KN Rao or BV Raman, etc. While reading > > > > > > > your writings, it is difficult to grasp what you are > > > > > > > advocating, a Vedic or Western astrological approach. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Furthermore, I find less and less your writing having > > > > > > > to do with actual research and observation - areas > > > > > > > that would demand brevity of expression and accuracy > > > > > > > as a prerequisite - but more about speculation and > > > > > > > flights of fancy; you don't use preceedant (classical > > > > > > > or modern) to backup your writings and the like, but > > > > > > > rather "individualism" as your authority - something > > > > > > > that is clearly at variance with any Jyotishical > > > > > > > teaching (but is the rage in Western modern astrology, > > > > > > > where anything can mean anything to anyone; this why > > > > > > > Western astrologers can't agree on basic things like > > > > > > > Saturn Retrograde, for example). On several occasions > > > > > > > in your forum, we have gone back and forth on this > > > > > > > point, to which you have yet to respond with any > > > > > > > actual studies, research or case examples to back up > > > > > > > your ruminations. Such things are not only outside the > > > > > > > Jyotish canon, theory and practice, but also puts it > > > > > > > at greater risk for "anybody" to just come in and do > > > > > > > their thing. Here in the USA, the quick fix is in, and > > > > > > > anything that smacks of doing the harder work of > > > > > > > study, reflection and experience is eschewed in the > > > > > > > name of rapidity and indulgence without consequences. > > > > > > > All of this is anathema to Jyotish practice and > > > > > > > thought. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The other problem I have with you is in your continual > > > > > > > "hawking" of your products and services. Many native > > > > > > > born jyotishis, including Rao and Raman, have had > > > > > > > choice words for those who would market their > > > > > > > services. I tend to be deeply suspicious of such > > > > > > > people, for my own experience has shown me that those > > > > > > > who give their Jyotish knowledge without thought of > > > > > > > reward, tend to be far and away more accurate and to > > > > > > > the point than those who don't. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It is my hope that you put your energy more into focus > > > > > > > on the heart of Jyotish, where it is my contention you > > > > > > > are likely to make the most impact. On the present > > > > > > > course, your and other's actions only serve to muddy > > > > > > > the already murky waters of the Astrological science > > > > > > > and how it's seen by the public. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Salaam, > > > > > > > Mu > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- Mark Kincaid <m.kincaid@m...> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> Become Your Own Best > > > > > > >> Astrologer! > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> A friend of mine mentioned to me the other day, that > > > > > > >> it's recently > > > > > > >> been projected that the "4th most in-demand, job, in > > > > > > >> the future, will > > > > > > >> be Astrologers." > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> I laughed when I heard that. I think it might be > > > > > > >> true! > > > > > > >> Certainly it's been my experience that becoming a > > > > > > >> professional Astrologer, > > > > > > >> is the best thing I've ever done. I used to be a > > > > > > >> Meditation teacher, which > > > > > > >> I loved a lot. However, when I discovered > > > > > > >> Astrology, I found an even more > > > > > > >> comprehensive knowledge that actually incorporates > > > > > > >> every aspect of life. > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> See, not everyone's ready for, quote: 'meditation', > > > > > > >> or a spiritual life. > > > > > > >> Most > > > > > > >> people just want to become a greater success, in > > > > > > >> this life! > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> Well, Astrology understands that and has in fact, > > > > > > >> very insightful things > > > > > > >> to say for any individual that wants to become more > > > > > > >> of a success in life. > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> All of us, in these Astrology 'groups' are learning > > > > > > >> such amazing things re- > > > > > > >> lated to Astrology and life. > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> #1, the symbolisms of Astrology, 'fit'! In fact, > > > > > > >> there's a very precise > > > > > > >> 1to1 > > > > > > >> Correspondence between all the details of our live's > > > > > > >> and our Astrological > > > > > > >> charts. > > > > > > >> This is what's underlying all our questions and > > > > > > >> answers, and what it means > > > > > > >> to have the Moon in the 3rd house, with Mars & > > > > > > >> Venus. Or, why am I so > > > > > > >> unconventionally creative? Or, why do I have so > > > > > > >> many accidents? Or, why > > > > > > >> am I attracted to engineering? Or, why do I have > > > > > > >> tensions with my Mother, > > > > > > >> but not my Father? Or, why do I ......? > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> For every conceivable question; there's a clear and > > > > > > >> precise Astrological > > > > > > >> reason! > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> This fact, alone, is why Astrology has continued for > > > > > > >> all these centuries. > > > > > > >> It Works! > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> Each one of us, however, needs to know this. > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> In the past, it was enough to just go to a > > > > > > >> professional Astrologer, whenever > > > > > > >> we > > > > > > >> had questions, or problems in our life. Now, > > > > > > >> millions of individuals are > > > > > > >> wanting > > > > > > >> to know their own Astrology, for themselves! > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> In this spirit I am starting a new , that > > > > > > >> will be totally focused > > > > > > >> on > > > > > > >> learning each and every aspect of our Astrology. It > > > > > > >> will be primarily > > > > > > >> Jyotish, or > > > > > > >> Eastern Astrology, based, though many of the best > > > > > > >> ideas of Western > > > > > > >> Astrology, > > > > > > >> including the possibility that our Astrology is also > > > > > > >> about our futures, and > > > > > > >> latent > > > > > > >> opportunities, in life, will also be discussed. > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> #2 This leads me to my second point. Astrology > > > > > > >> traditionally has been > > > > > > >> about > > > > > > >> one's 'fate' or pre-determinism. In other words, it > > > > > > >> was based very strongly > > > > > > >> in the > > > > > > >> feeling that this life, that our Astrology charts, > > > > > > >> are mostly about the > > > > > > >> things that 'will' happen. > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> I remember when I first started studying Jyotish way > > > > > > >> back in 1988. Every > > > > > > >> book you'd pick up would have approximately 195 > > > > > > >> pages on the Astrology, or > > > > > > >> how > > > > > > >> our charts fit us. And, then, at the very end, 5 > > > > > > >> pages on something called > > > > > > >> Remedial > > > > > > >> Measures. Almost like an afterthought, I thought, > > > > > > >> tacked on at the end. > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> Even back then, I thought this percentage was very > > > > > > >> imbalanced. Perhaps it > > > > > > >> was > > > > > > >> because of my strong, meditative background. Even > > > > > > >> in 1988, I'd already been > > > > > > >> meditating for over 18 years and growing in all the > > > > > > >> values of profound > > > > > > >> self-improvement. > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> So, the idea of Jyotish remedial measures, of course > > > > > > >> made sense. Over the > > > > > > >> years, > > > > > > >> however, I realized the % was all wrong. Eventually > > > > > > >> I realized it should be > > > > > > >> more like, > > > > > > >> 50/50! It's not enough to just intellectually > > > > > > >> 'understand' why we're the > > > > > > >> way we are. > > > > > > >> The nature of human life, includes the fact that we > > > > > > >> want to grow. We want > > > > > > >> to improve > > > > > > >> ourselves, and accomplish certain things, which are > > > > > > >> really about the > > > > > > >> 'transformative' > > > > > > >> side to life. 2% is not nearly enough! > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> Now, many years later, I realize even spending 50% > > > > > > >> of your time, discovering > > > > > > >> why > > > > > > >> we're the way we are, is not really necessary. Now > > > > > > >> I understand one needs > > > > > > >> to spend, > > > > > > >> only as much time, figuring out the 'whys' of > > > > > > >> Astrology; till one desires > > > > > > >> the ability to > > > > > > >> change. > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> Today, I constantly run into people, who after just > > > > > > >> one conversation about > > > > > > >> how their > > > > > > >> Saturn or Mars, or Rahu, is causing their problems; > > > > > > >> then say: "Okay!, What > > > > > > >> can I do > > > > > > >> to improve my Saturn!" Maybe it should be more like > > > > > > >> 30/70%. Spend 30% of > > > > > > >> your time > > > > > > >> figuring out 'why' and then spend 70% of one's time > > > > > > >> and energy, in improving > > > > > > >> the > > > > > > >> malefics, in our charts! > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> Whatever the percentage, the age of self-improvement > > > > > > >> is upon us, and > > > > > > >> Astrology can > > > > > > >> lead the way. However, Astrology needs to stop > > > > > > >> becoming so wrapped up in > > > > > > >> 'fate' and > > > > > > >> pre-destiny, and begin focusing on transformation > > > > > > >> and self-development. > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> It's really what we're here to do. We're not here, > > > > > > >> to just go through the > > > > > > >> motions, and > > > > > > >> live our lives, from a level of puppet, > > > > > > >> pre-determinism. No! We're meant > > > > > > >> to grow. > > > > > > >> We're meant to evolve. The fascinating thing is, we > > > > > > >> can still choose, to > > > > > > >> evolve more slowly. > > > > > > >> But, the 'choice' is up to us! > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> #2 Therefore the second most important aspect of > > > > > > >> Jyotish and Astrology is > > > > > > >> self-improvement. > > > > > > >> I like the word transformation because some say that > > > > > > >> Jyotish/Astrology rules > > > > > > >> the 8th house. > > > > > > >> And some like to describe the 8th house, not as > > > > > > >> fate, or death, or 'fixed' > > > > > > >> qualities, like obsessions, > > > > > > >> and addictions. Some call the 8th house, the house > > > > > > >> of transformation! > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> Look at the United State's chart. Several very > > > > > > >> important planets in the 8th > > > > > > >> house of > > > > > > >> self-transformation. And, if there was any quality > > > > > > >> that has dominated the > > > > > > >> life of America; > > > > > > >> it's been self-improvement. > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> In the early days it was progressing, rapidly across > > > > > > >> the plains of America. > > > > > > >> Later that thirst to grow, became more internalized > > > > > > >> and > > > > > > > === message truncated === > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mu'Min M. Bey > > > > > > > Western and Vedic Astrologer > > > > > > > Check out my site: > > > > > > > muminbey.tripod.com > > > > > > > "The Future of Astrology, is Here..." > > > > > > > AOL IM Screen Name: JediMu > > > > > > > Join the Pan Astrological Forum, Where Freedom in > > > Astrological > > > > > Thought Lives! > > > > > > > Just send a blank email to panastroforum-@t... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Tired of spam? Mail has the best spam protection > > > around > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Your free subscription is supported by today's sponsor: > > > > > > > ---------------------- ----- > > - > > > ------ > > > > > > > Buy Stocks and Index Funds for just $4 No Account or > > > > > > > Investment Minimums and No Inactivity Fees Automatically > > > > > > > invest weekly or monthly and build your future. > > > > > > > http://click.topica.com/caadlVFbUrFgkb7vZsVf/Sharebuilder > > > > > > > ---------------------- ----- > > - > > > ------ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --^------------------- ----- > > - > > > ------ > > > > > > > This email was sent to: m.kincaid@m... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > EASY UNSUBSCRIBE > > > > > http://topica.com/u/?bUrFgk.b7vZsV.bS5raW5j > > > > > > > Or send an email to: panastroforum-@t... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > For Topica's complete suite of email marketing solutions > > > visit: > > > > > > > http://www.topica.com/?p=TEXFOOTER > > > > > > > --^------------------- ----- > > - > > > ------ > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 29, 2005 Report Share Posted April 29, 2005 The apologies were not for you. It was to Sri Pathak. You are proving to be quite reactive once again. Thank you. Your cult does not interest me and nor your moodhamati. Thanks and Regards. vedic astrology, "Sourav Chowdhury" <souravc108> wrote: > || Hare Rama Krishna || > > Dear Natalcharts_biz, > > Namaskar. Thank you for your apologies. I am > sure they are well meant and I sure hope you understand your own > limitations. > > The fact that planets have their bearings need to be retold by Mark > and you and such like new age prophets ??? The whole Vedanga Jyotish > system is based on that. I hope you don't start kidding yourself > stating that Mark and you are the first person to state that Mars > and Saturn have this or that effect on Moon. Mark has been given a > lot of fancy talk on transits and life, I do read his e-mails and > find them not worth reading. They are mostly big dissapointments. > But I don't mind them as he is a member and he has every right to > write whatever he feels like. But what he does is that he invites > persons from here into his paid internet courses. I call this > advertisement and that too in a very subtle form. Many novice > astrologers, who do not have foresight and proper association can > accept such a paid offer and loose money. But I didnt name his name > in my email to MuMin and list members -- I merely mentioned that I > and very much against such activities. > > Your negative intentions in your earlier email are > very very clear; so very clear that no amount of apologies can > change their true color. > > I have read and still been reading Sri Ramakrishna's messages. His > life and mesage is regarded as a Living Book that encompasses all of > Vedas into One. Empty vessels do sound hollow. But earlier I asked > you a question : what is A3 in Aries mean ? Don't kid me and others > telling that your quoted proverb is an appropriate reply to that. > Your sarcasm was very evident ! > > The basis of Jyotish is the philosophy of Vedas. Planets dont force > us do somethings, instead they resemble our short-comings. But this > list is meant to discuss vedanga jyotish and not fancy > marketable philosophy. If that is allowed the attention will be > shifted from understanding the basics of jyotish into philosophy. > Philosophy brings personal ideas and perspectives. They should be > carefully avoided. > > I still am wondering what planetary combinations caused you to take > such a personal stance and use my birth data and give such a partial > reading. If you gave a good reading encompassing all the important > aspects of astrology, I would have nothing to say. But you > constantly harped on debilitated Mars and Moon and badhaka to > colorize your statement and make it full of negative connotations. > Whereas you should go to arudhas and tried to gauge that > significance first. There is plenty of well known examples of > personas you could choose to drive you meager point home. But no ! > you chose my name and my data and used your understanding that I > attack people out of a sense of insecurity. That is INEXCUSABLE. It > speaks volumes of you are a person and your understanding of real > philosophy. And this also shows why "little learning can be > dangerous" and shows the pitfalls of limited learning and > application of astrology. In essence, your reading is no more > worthwhile to read that Sun Sign astrology they publish in women's > magazines. > > But finally looking back, I don't mind -- someone's littleness > should not affect me. > > Jai Ma > > Sourav > > > > > > > vedic astrology, "natalcharts_biz" > <natalcharts_biz> wrote: > > Dear Sri Pathakji > > > > I fully agree with your views. My apologies to you on my comments. > > > > However, they were not to speak against Sourav but to bring about > the > > fact that each one is bound to a certain extent to the grahas and > > their interactions between the two charts which define > relationships. > > > > And therefore, each one should be given a chance to speak like Mark > > did. He has not written against or for something, just what he > > believes is right. > > > > Secondly, why do some people here consider that they have a > superior > > understanding of the subject? By having a strong belief you can > hardly > > call yourself an astrologer. Can't a master learn from a disciple? > > Is it not explained in our sastras that wise can even learn from > > insentient things? > > > > To Sourav, I never described Saturn's effect on the moon while you > > gave us a lecture on the same. You prove my point. Thanks. But I > > haven't written against you: if you do not have the traits that I > > mentioned I think you are blessed. If you do, then it is best to > > tackle them at the earliest if you so wish. > > > > If you read with a calm mind, the post is all about freedom of > > expression and I found it very strange that in an open forum Mark's > > views were attacked. If you do not agree, you could ask him > questions > > or ignore him. > > > > The same can be done to my views. You can ignore them if you want. > > > > Furthermore, Sourav what you call as my sarcastic statement: IT > was a > > statement of great Teacher Sri Ramakrishna Paramhansa that those > who > > are empty of knowledge have maximum disturbance at any influx of a > > circumstance. I have no ill feelings towards anyone and like you > said > > I hardly know you to have ill feelings towards you. It was to help > you > > understand that reactiveness shows weakness. > > > > What you have learnt from your Gurus may be true for you. But > please > > do not try to stamp it on me. I am an independent being. > > > > Some questions for you Sourav. Give Scientific proofs and not just > > reference from any text. Anyone who quotes Einstein does not > become one: > > 1. Why is the nature of the planets the way it is? Why is the > nature > > of Rasis the way it is? Who designed them in this way? What > > intelligence lies behind all this facade? > > 2. Why is graha dristi less powerful than rasi dristhi? > > 3. Is Astrology a means to an end or an end in itself? > > 4. Do you really believe that there is no more learning possible > for you? > > > > There is a lot of astrology to be learnt and found out. I will not > > close myself to any thought from any person, you are free to choose > > you own stance. > > > > Hari Om Tat Sat > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > vedic astrology, "utpal pathak" > > <vedic_pathak> wrote: > > > Dear Sir, > > > > > > Though I have pulled-out from almost all the arguments, i could > not > > > resist to comment on this one. > > > > > > It was very bad on your part to request Mr. sourav for his > birthdate > > > (you even asked to give on personal mail) and then start > discussing, > > > on open forum, his weaknesses(??)(as sited to your ego). this > > > violates basic code of conduct as a human. > > > > > > i hope, atleast this thing doesn't get repeated. > > > > > > best regards, > > > > > > Utpal > > > > > > vedic astrology, "Sourav Chowdhury" > > > <souravc108> wrote: > > > > || Hare Rama Krishna || > > > > || Om Gurave Namah || > > > > > > > > Dear Natalcharts_biz, > > > > > > > > Namaskar. Nice attempt at analysis of my > mind > > > > reaction. My comments below: > > > > > > > > 1. Graha drishti is not the only consideration. Rasi drishti > is more > > > > important as it is a life-long effect. Courage comes from the > third > > > > house (Leo) that is giving its full aspect to my fifth house > where > > > > Moon recides. Saturn is giving its full 3rd aspect from the > same > > > > house on Moon. Saturn being the co-lord of the 9H of dharma or > > > > righteousness brings that effect too. > > > > > > > > 2. What you have seen as my attacking nature is a perception > of me > > > > and hence you should judge it from Arudhas. If Arudhas do not > > > > confirm your conclusion, don't go for it because if may be > that you > > > > are seeing something and deciding something based on what you > are > > > > seeing but not acknowledging what you are seeing. Besides, you > have > > > > only known me for a week or two and only over a couple of e- > mails. > > > > Hence, don't judge me from houses themselves, and try to > understand > > > > arudhas. > > > > > > > > 3. A few days ago I asked you one question: I said that I have > A3 in > > > > Aries. What it means ? You avoided answering the question and > in > > > > reply gave this bit of sarcasm: " empty vessels sounds much ". > A3 in > > > > Aries shows that a person's writings will be "perceived as" > full of > > > > martian energy and to some it may appear as attacking. > > > > > > > > > > > > I didn't go about vilifying you for your previous response. I > > > > understand there are different natures of persons and Lord > manifests > > > > in everything. I never attack a person, I attack ideas which I > find > > > > wrong. My nature lends me the courage. Understand your own self > > > > before understanding others and announcing your such opinions > in a > > > > public forum. > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > Sourav > > > > > =================================================================== > > > > > > > > > > > > vedic astrology, "natalcharts_biz" > > > > <natalcharts_biz> wrote: > > > > > Some correction of Typos, Please excuse: > > > > > > > > > > I agree with Mark. This is a discussion group on Jyotish. If > > > > members > > > > > only want to change others to "their ideas or beliefs" on > Jyotish, > > > > > then, they show their own weakness not to give enough > freedom or > > > > > respect to others. > > > > > > > > > > Without naming, someone also mentioned about using Jyotish > > > > estorically > > > > > is wrong. In this view, I would like to remind that Jyotish > is a > > > > > Vedanga. Vedanga is a means to study the Veda. The words > Veda > > > means > > > > > knowledge and it is a pramaana (Sri Adi Sankara) that > whatever > > > that > > > > > is, is Brahman (Truth, Sat Chit Ananda). > > > > > > > > > > Therefore Jyotish becomes a means to know that. The Vedas > talk > > > > about > > > > > the self binding due to ignorance of Truth. Jyotish helps us > > > > > understand the bindings (grahas as seizers have that effect) > and > > > > gives > > > > > us anti dotes to come out of it. > > > > > > > > > > That it enables us to see future effects of bindings is > extra > > > > option. > > > > > Like I asked for Sourav's birth details the other day: I > found > > > him > > > > to > > > > > be overreactive to people's thoughts and suggestions. In > reaction, > > > > > many people also reacted back at him. I found his mind > (moon) > > > > aspected > > > > > both by Mars and Saturn. And Mars is debilitated and > therefore > > > > Sourav > > > > > is prone to thinking that any person not agreeing to his > view > > > > point is > > > > > an adversary. It does not come from courage but comes from > his > > > > > thinking that he would lose this battle of words and > therefore, > > > his > > > > > own low self esteem gets lower (debilitated Mangal). He, > > > therefore, > > > > > requires > > > > > continuous good appraisal from other friends and "masters", > which > > > > keep > > > > > him happy. > > > > > > > > > > He, is thus bound by it and reacts. Yet, he has lessened his > > > > reacting > > > > > since he has come in touch with his Guru. This is a fact > that only > > > > > Sourav can confirm. Guru, being a badhaka (taking lagna to > be > > > > gemini > > > > > and I choose not to correct it), has bound his reactive > nature and > > > > > created a badhana to that expression. So one bandan causes > > > reaction > > > > > and the other stalls it. > > > > > > > > > > I also would like to say something to those who reacted to > his > > > > > statements. By understanding jyotish, you all need not have > > > > reacted to > > > > > his stance for he is governed by grahas too (to the extent > he > > > lets > > > > them) > > > > > > > > > > I choose to leave such an analysis here and now but pray to > the > > > > > subtler intellect of all members to let everyone speak their > know- > > > > how. > > > > > It will only add to the learning. > > > > > > > > > > Hari Om Tat Sat > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > vedic astrology, Mark Kincaid > > > > <m.kincaid@m...> > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > Dear Mu: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Well, this is obviously where we differ. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In fact, you don't have to take advantage of my > perspective > > > or > > > > my > > > > > ideas. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's really not up to you, really to judge or to critize. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But, I'll say this, because you seem to not be able to > get > > > > away from > > > > > > your > > > > > > > own Mars in Virgo, propensity to continually critizize, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'll say, I am following my heart with reference to > Jyotish, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > and especially I'm following my Guru's prompts. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I am a student of his Holiness Maharishi Mahesh Yogi, > who is > > > > one > > > > > of the > > > > > > > most fascinating and unique scholoars of all Vedic > Science, > > > > and he > > > > > > himself, > > > > > > > has followed a path of what he calls: "enlivening and > > > > revising, this > > > > > > > ancient Wisdom." > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm also coming from a deeply, transformative aspect of > Vedic > > > > Science, > > > > > > > which stems from my over 35 years of transcendental > > > experience. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My Maharishi has often said there are a number of very > > > > important > > > > > > present day > > > > > > > aspects of Ved that are incorrect or mistaken. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > One of the most important is that it's very difficult to > > > > evolve, and > > > > > > very > > > > > > > hard to find enlightenment. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In this regard he has said his re-interpretation and > insight > > > > into > > > > > > the nature > > > > > > > of meditation, has completely changed and begun a > process of > > > > complete > > > > > > > re-understanding as to the value, scope and > possibilities of > > > > > meditation. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Likewise, Maharishi has spent many years now, working > with > > > > each of > > > > > > the Vedic > > > > > > > Sciences, and where it's been necessary helping the > Vedic > > > > Pundits and > > > > > > > Scholars re-work, and revitalize this ancient wisdom. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'll mention one example of yaguas. Yaguas have been > there > > > > > forever, in > > > > > > > Indian culture and are described as very beneficial Vedic > > > > > > performances to > > > > > > > improve the quality of life of individuals and society > as a > > > > whole. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > However, Maharishi has said the success of these > performances > > > > and of > > > > > > yaguas > > > > > > > has been lacking because the key to their success has > been > > > > lacking. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The key, according to Maharishi has been the inner > > > > consciousness > > > > > of the > > > > > > > Vedic pundits. But, because the enlivenment of the > field of > > > > pure > > > > > > awareness > > > > > > > has not been there, then the performances have not been > as > > > > > successful as > > > > > > > possible. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Maharishi has put attention on all the Vedic Sciences > > > including > > > > > > Ghandharva, > > > > > > > Yoga, Stapyaved, and even Jyotish. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And, though I'm not formally working for the Maharish's > World- > > > > wide > > > > > > movement, > > > > > > > I can honestly say, my development and insights into > Jyotish > > > > come > > > > > > from this > > > > > > > unique development in the entire field of Vedic Science. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Now, you are free to enjoy and appreciate or not my > Jyotish, > > > > just > > > > > > like I can > > > > > > > feel one way or another about 'yours'. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > However, I would suggest you put your attention on your > own > > > > > Jyotish, and > > > > > > > leave your so-called constructive criticisms to God. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I would also suggest if you don't appreciate my Jyotish > that > > > > you > > > > > > leave the > > > > > > > that I've created since we don't seem to be > able > > > > to > > > > > > converse, > > > > > > > without this rancor, and irritableness which I don't > > > especially > > > > > > appreciate. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sincerely, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mark Kincaid > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mu'Min Bey <mumin_bey> > > > > > > > > panastroforum@t... > > > > > > > > Thu, 28 Apr 2005 09:22:03 -0700 (PDT) > > > > > > > > , Vedic Astrology > > > > > > > > <vedic astrology>, "Jyotish > Remedies..." > > > > > > > > <>, "b) > " > > > > > > > > <>, panastroforum@t... > > > > > > > > Open Letter to Mark Kincaid On Vedic > Astrological > > > > > > Matters, Etc. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Your free subscription is supported by today's sponsor: > > > > > > > > ---------------------- > ----- > > > - > > > > ------ > > > > > > > > Erase wrinkles without Botox! > > > > > > > > Nexiderm SP is clinically proven to reduce wrinkles by > 68%. > > > > Click > > > > > > > > here to start looking younger today! > > > > > > > > http://click.topica.com/caadslIbUrFgkb7vZsVa/Nexiderm > > > > > > > > ---------------------- > ----- > > > - > > > > ------ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Open Letter to Mark Kincaid On Vedic Astrological > > > > > > > > Matters, Etc. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 11:55 AM 4/27/05 Wed > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Mark, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I have watched your activities for some time, mostly > > > > > > > > with a good degree of dismay. I say that because of > > > > > > > > the general tenor and tone of your writings and so on, > > > > > > > > which is more and more becoming eblematic of Vedic > > > > > > > > Astrology in the West/USA; in other words, they're > > > > > > > > becoming bascially, Jyotish in Western Astrology drag. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > More and more jyotishis in the West have taken to > > > > > > > > aping their Western Astrology "betters" by adopting > > > > > > > > the aforementioned thinking, which you speak so > > > > > > > > glowingly of in your most recent "ad"; > > > > > > > > "self-improvement". > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Without question, Vedic Astrology recognizes > > > > > > > > self-improvement as much as any of the branches of > > > > > > > > Western Astrology does; but Jyotish also recognizes > > > > > > > > that there are some things in this life that cannot be > > > > > > > > avoided, and indeed, much of Jyotish's philosophical > > > > > > > > framework operates on this idea. Therefore, although a > > > > > > > > person may be able to use a "remedy" to avoid the more > > > > > > > > uglier aspects of a particular combination, it may be > > > > > > > > better for that person in the long run to endure the > > > > > > > > results of said combination, for the betterment of > > > > > > > > that person later on down the line. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Having intensely involved with Vedic Astrology since > > > > > > > > the late 90s, I have watched as more and more American > > > > > > > > Vedic astrologers basically copying the thinking and > > > > > > > > even methods of the Western astrologers (aside from > > > > > > > > the "quick fix remedy" approaches, the increasing use > > > > > > > > of Western Outer Planets in the Vedic horoscope and so > > > > > > > > on). Perhaps even more disturbing, is this tendency on > > > > > > > > the part of so many American jyotishis to have a > > > > > > > > "hippie" type of approach, where all manner of new age > > > > > > > > mysticism is brought into what the vast majority of > > > > > > > > Indians consider to be a rather straightfoward affair > > > > > > > > - going to see an astrologer and getting no-nonsense > > > > > > > > information and answers to life's everyday problems. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Being one that seems to have some level of > > > > > > > > understanding of India, you surely must know that > > > > > > > > Indians rarely seek out jyotishis for "the meaning of > > > > > > > > life". About a third of all my clients are IN India, > > > > > > > > and in some 6 years, I have yet to have one ask me for > > > > > > > > such info. In the main, their concerns fall into > > > > > > > > pretty distinct, and I would say, mundane, areas: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1. Marital prospects, either for themselves and/or > > > > > > > > their kids > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 2. Business concerns, which often includes > > > > > > > > educational, career, licensing and/or immigration > > > > > > > > concerns > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 3. Health concerns, which usually concerns the onset > > > > > > > > and duration of a particular ailment or disease. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The argument is often raised here in the States that > > > > > > > > people here want to understand themselves and the > > > > > > > > like, but again, my own experience on the ground, > > > > > > > > since the early 90s (when I began my Western Astrology > > > > > > > > studies) controverts this. In the main, my native born > > > > > > > > clientele aren't that much different from my off-shore > > > > > > > > clients - they pretty much want the same things. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In short, it is my contention that so many of the > > > > > > > > American born jyotishis simply "want" to inject their > > > > > > > > own spiritual opinions and the like. Most Americans > > > > > > > > have no interest in such things. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Among the many problems I have with you, Mr. Kincaid, > > > > > > > > is that you continually stray from the heart of > > > > > > > > Jyotish, with your long and meandering writings about > > > > > > > > the planets, and how one is supposed to "work" with > > > > > > > > them in the way Western modern astrologers advocate; > > > > > > > > one is hard pressed to find such support in either the > > > > > > > > Jyotish classics or in the more modern writings of > > > > > > > > such people as KN Rao or BV Raman, etc. While reading > > > > > > > > your writings, it is difficult to grasp what you are > > > > > > > > advocating, a Vedic or Western astrological approach. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Furthermore, I find less and less your writing having > > > > > > > > to do with actual research and observation - areas > > > > > > > > that would demand brevity of expression and accuracy > > > > > > > > as a prerequisite - but more about speculation and > > > > > > > > flights of fancy; you don't use preceedant (classical > > > > > > > > or modern) to backup your writings and the like, but > > > > > > > > rather "individualism" as your authority - something > > > > > > > > that is clearly at variance with any Jyotishical > > > > > > > > teaching (but is the rage in Western modern astrology, > > > > > > > > where anything can mean anything to anyone; this why > > > > > > > > Western astrologers can't agree on basic things like > > > > > > > > Saturn Retrograde, for example). On several occasions > > > > > > > > in your forum, we have gone back and forth on this > > > > > > > > point, to which you have yet to respond with any > > > > > > > > actual studies, research or case examples to back up > > > > > > > > your ruminations. Such things are not only outside the > > > > > > > > Jyotish canon, theory and practice, but also puts it > > > > > > > > at greater risk for "anybody" to just come in and do > > > > > > > > their thing. Here in the USA, the quick fix is in, and > > > > > > > > anything that smacks of doing the harder work of > > > > > > > > study, reflection and experience is eschewed in the > > > > > > > > name of rapidity and indulgence without consequences. > > > > > > > > All of this is anathema to Jyotish practice and > > > > > > > > thought. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The other problem I have with you is in your continual > > > > > > > > "hawking" of your products and services. Many native > > > > > > > > born jyotishis, including Rao and Raman, have had > > > > > > > > choice words for those who would market their > > > > > > > > services. I tend to be deeply suspicious of such > > > > > > > > people, for my own experience has shown me that those > > > > > > > > who give their Jyotish knowledge without thought of > > > > > > > > reward, tend to be far and away more accurate and to > > > > > > > > the point than those who don't. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It is my hope that you put your energy more into focus > > > > > > > > on the heart of Jyotish, where it is my contention you > > > > > > > > are likely to make the most impact. On the present > > > > > > > > course, your and other's actions only serve to muddy > > > > > > > > the already murky waters of the Astrological science > > > > > > > > and how it's seen by the public. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Salaam, > > > > > > > > Mu > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- Mark Kincaid <m.kincaid@m...> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> Become Your Own Best > > > > > > > >> Astrologer! > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> A friend of mine mentioned to me the other day, that > > > > > > > >> it's recently > > > > > > > >> been projected that the "4th most in-demand, job, in > > > > > > > >> the future, will > > > > > > > >> be Astrologers." > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> I laughed when I heard that. I think it might be > > > > > > > >> true! > > > > > > > >> Certainly it's been my experience that becoming a > > > > > > > >> professional Astrologer, > > > > > > > >> is the best thing I've ever done. I used to be a > > > > > > > >> Meditation teacher, which > > > > > > > >> I loved a lot. However, when I discovered > > > > > > > >> Astrology, I found an even more > > > > > > > >> comprehensive knowledge that actually incorporates > > > > > > > >> every aspect of life. > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> See, not everyone's ready for, quote: 'meditation', > > > > > > > >> or a spiritual life. > > > > > > > >> Most > > > > > > > >> people just want to become a greater success, in > > > > > > > >> this life! > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> Well, Astrology understands that and has in fact, > > > > > > > >> very insightful things > > > > > > > >> to say for any individual that wants to become more > > > > > > > >> of a success in life. > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> All of us, in these Astrology 'groups' are learning > > > > > > > >> such amazing things re- > > > > > > > >> lated to Astrology and life. > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> #1, the symbolisms of Astrology, 'fit'! In fact, > > > > > > > >> there's a very precise > > > > > > > >> 1to1 > > > > > > > >> Correspondence between all the details of our live's > > > > > > > >> and our Astrological > > > > > > > >> charts. > > > > > > > >> This is what's underlying all our questions and > > > > > > > >> answers, and what it means > > > > > > > >> to have the Moon in the 3rd house, with Mars & > > > > > > > >> Venus. Or, why am I so > > > > > > > >> unconventionally creative? Or, why do I have so > > > > > > > >> many accidents? Or, why > > > > > > > >> am I attracted to engineering? Or, why do I have > > > > > > > >> tensions with my Mother, > > > > > > > >> but not my Father? Or, why do I ......? > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> For every conceivable question; there's a clear and > > > > > > > >> precise Astrological > > > > > > > >> reason! > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> This fact, alone, is why Astrology has continued for > > > > > > > >> all these centuries. > > > > > > > >> It Works! > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> Each one of us, however, needs to know this. > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> In the past, it was enough to just go to a > > > > > > > >> professional Astrologer, whenever > > > > > > > >> we > > > > > > > >> had questions, or problems in our life. Now, > > > > > > > >> millions of individuals are > > > > > > > >> wanting > > > > > > > >> to know their own Astrology, for themselves! > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> In this spirit I am starting a new , that > > > > > > > >> will be totally focused > > > > > > > >> on > > > > > > > >> learning each and every aspect of our Astrology. It > > > > > > > >> will be primarily > > > > > > > >> Jyotish, or > > > > > > > >> Eastern Astrology, based, though many of the best > > > > > > > >> ideas of Western > > > > > > > >> Astrology, > > > > > > > >> including the possibility that our Astrology is also > > > > > > > >> about our futures, and > > > > > > > >> latent > > > > > > > >> opportunities, in life, will also be discussed. > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> #2 This leads me to my second point. Astrology > > > > > > > >> traditionally has been > > > > > > > >> about > > > > > > > >> one's 'fate' or pre-determinism. In other words, it > > > > > > > >> was based very strongly > > > > > > > >> in the > > > > > > > >> feeling that this life, that our Astrology charts, > > > > > > > >> are mostly about the > > > > > > > >> things that 'will' happen. > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> I remember when I first started studying Jyotish way > > > > > > > >> back in 1988. Every > > > > > > > >> book you'd pick up would have approximately 195 > > > > > > > >> pages on the Astrology, or > > > > > > > >> how > > > > > > > >> our charts fit us. And, then, at the very end, 5 > > > > > > > >> pages on something called > > > > > > > >> Remedial > > > > > > > >> Measures. Almost like an afterthought, I thought, > > > > > > > >> tacked on at the end. > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> Even back then, I thought this percentage was very > > > > > > > >> imbalanced. Perhaps it > > > > > > > >> was > > > > > > > >> because of my strong, meditative background. Even > > > > > > > >> in 1988, I'd already been > > > > > > > >> meditating for over 18 years and growing in all the > > > > > > > >> values of profound > > > > > > > >> self-improvement. > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> So, the idea of Jyotish remedial measures, of course > > > > > > > >> made sense. Over the > > > > > > > >> years, > > > > > > > >> however, I realized the % was all wrong. Eventually > > > > > > > >> I realized it should be > > > > > > > >> more like, > > > > > > > >> 50/50! It's not enough to just intellectually > > > > > > > >> 'understand' why we're the > > > > > > > >> way we are. > > > > > > > >> The nature of human life, includes the fact that we > > > > > > > >> want to grow. We want > > > > > > > >> to improve > > > > > > > >> ourselves, and accomplish certain things, which are > > > > > > > >> really about the > > > > > > > >> 'transformative' > > > > > > > >> side to life. 2% is not nearly enough! > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> Now, many years later, I realize even spending 50% > > > > > > > >> of your time, discovering > > > > > > > >> why > > > > > > > >> we're the way we are, is not really necessary. Now > > > > > > > >> I understand one needs > > > > > > > >> to spend, > > > > > > > >> only as much time, figuring out the 'whys' of > > > > > > > >> Astrology; till one desires > > > > > > > >> the ability to > > > > > > > >> change. > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> Today, I constantly run into people, who after just > > > > > > > >> one conversation about > > > > > > > >> how their > > > > > > > >> Saturn or Mars, or Rahu, is causing their problems; > > > > > > > >> then say: "Okay!, What > > > > > > > >> can I do > > > > > > > >> to improve my Saturn!" Maybe it should be more like > > > > > > > >> 30/70%. Spend 30% of > > > > > > > >> your time > > > > > > > >> figuring out 'why' and then spend 70% of one's time > > > > > > > >> and energy, in improving > > > > > > > >> the > > > > > > > >> malefics, in our charts! > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> Whatever the percentage, the age of self-improvement > > > > > > > >> is upon us, and > > > > > > > >> Astrology can > > > > > > > >> lead the way. However, Astrology needs to stop > > > > > > > >> becoming so wrapped up in > > > > > > > >> 'fate' and > > > > > > > >> pre-destiny, and begin focusing on transformation > > > > > > > >> and self-development. > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> It's really what we're here to do. We're not here, > > > > > > > >> to just go through the > > > > > > > >> motions, and > > > > > > > >> live our lives, from a level of puppet, > > > > > > > >> pre-determinism. No! We're meant > > > > > > > >> to grow. > > > > > > > >> We're meant to evolve. The fascinating thing is, we > > > > > > > >> can still choose, to > > > > > > > >> evolve more slowly. > > > > > > > >> But, the 'choice' is up to us! > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> #2 Therefore the second most important aspect of > > > > > > > >> Jyotish and Astrology is > > > > > > > >> self-improvement. > > > > > > > >> I like the word transformation because some say that > > > > > > > >> Jyotish/Astrology rules > > > > > > > >> the 8th house. > > > > > > > >> And some like to describe the 8th house, not as > > > > > > > >> fate, or death, or 'fixed' > > > > > > > >> qualities, like obsessions, > > > > > > > >> and addictions. Some call the 8th house, the house > > > > > > > >> of transformation! > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> Look at the United State's chart. Several very > > > > > > > >> important planets in the 8th > > > > > > > >> house of > > > > > > > >> self-transformation. And, if there was any quality > > > > > > > >> that has dominated the > > > > > > > >> life of America; > > > > > > > >> it's been self-improvement. > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> In the early days it was progressing, rapidly across > > > > > > > >> the plains of America. > > > > > > > >> Later that thirst to grow, became more internalized > > > > > > > >> and > > > > > > > > === message truncated === > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mu'Min M. Bey > > > > > > > > Western and Vedic Astrologer > > > > > > > > Check out my site: > > > > > > > > muminbey.tripod.com > > > > > > > > "The Future of Astrology, is Here..." > > > > > > > > AOL IM Screen Name: JediMu > > > > > > > > Join the Pan Astrological Forum, Where Freedom in > > > > Astrological > > > > > > Thought Lives! > > > > > > > > Just send a blank email to panastroforum-@t... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Tired of spam? Mail has the best spam > protection > > > > around > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Your free subscription is supported by today's sponsor: > > > > > > > > ---------------------- > ----- > > > - > > > > ------ > > > > > > > > Buy Stocks and Index Funds for just $4 No Account or > > > > > > > > Investment Minimums and No Inactivity Fees > Automatically > > > > > > > > invest weekly or monthly and build your future. > > > > > > > > > http://click.topica.com/caadlVFbUrFgkb7vZsVf/Sharebuilder > > > > > > > > ---------------------- > ----- > > > - > > > > ------ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --^------------------- > ----- > > > - > > > > ------ > > > > > > > > This email was sent to: m.kincaid@m... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > EASY UNSUBSCRIBE > > > > > > http://topica.com/u/?bUrFgk.b7vZsV.bS5raW5j > > > > > > > > Or send an email to: panastroforum-@t... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > For Topica's complete suite of email marketing > solutions > > > > visit: > > > > > > > > http://www.topica.com/?p=TEXFOOTER > > > > > > > > --^------------------- > ----- > > > - > > > > ------ > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 30, 2005 Report Share Posted April 30, 2005 || Hare Rama Krishna || Dear Natalcharts_biz, Namaskar. Ofcourse the apologies were to Utpal bhai and not to me. T didn't expect anything from you. I understand very well that you are not yet a person of that high mind to apologize to a person whom you caused deliberate pain. You have much to evolve in that direction. I pray that you do so quickly. Regards, Sourav ============================================================== vedic astrology, "natalcharts_biz" <natalcharts_biz> wrote: > The apologies were not for you. It was to Sri Pathak. > > You are proving to be quite reactive once again. Thank you. Your cult > does not interest me and nor your moodhamati. > > Thanks and Regards. > > > > vedic astrology, "Sourav Chowdhury" > <souravc108> wrote: > > || Hare Rama Krishna || > > > > Dear Natalcharts_biz, > > > > Namaskar. Thank you for your apologies. I am > > sure they are well meant and I sure hope you understand your own > > limitations. > > > > The fact that planets have their bearings need to be retold by Mark > > and you and such like new age prophets ??? The whole Vedanga Jyotish > > system is based on that. I hope you don't start kidding yourself > > stating that Mark and you are the first person to state that Mars > > and Saturn have this or that effect on Moon. Mark has been given a > > lot of fancy talk on transits and life, I do read his e-mails and > > find them not worth reading. They are mostly big dissapointments. > > But I don't mind them as he is a member and he has every right to > > write whatever he feels like. But what he does is that he invites > > persons from here into his paid internet courses. I call this > > advertisement and that too in a very subtle form. Many novice > > astrologers, who do not have foresight and proper association can > > accept such a paid offer and loose money. But I didnt name his name > > in my email to MuMin and list members -- I merely mentioned that I > > and very much against such activities. > > > > Your negative intentions in your earlier email are > > very very clear; so very clear that no amount of apologies can > > change their true color. > > > > I have read and still been reading Sri Ramakrishna's messages. His > > life and mesage is regarded as a Living Book that encompasses all of > > Vedas into One. Empty vessels do sound hollow. But earlier I asked > > you a question : what is A3 in Aries mean ? Don't kid me and others > > telling that your quoted proverb is an appropriate reply to that. > > Your sarcasm was very evident ! > > > > The basis of Jyotish is the philosophy of Vedas. Planets dont force > > us do somethings, instead they resemble our short-comings. But this > > list is meant to discuss vedanga jyotish and not fancy > > marketable philosophy. If that is allowed the attention will be > > shifted from understanding the basics of jyotish into philosophy. > > Philosophy brings personal ideas and perspectives. They should be > > carefully avoided. > > > > I still am wondering what planetary combinations caused you to take > > such a personal stance and use my birth data and give such a partial > > reading. If you gave a good reading encompassing all the important > > aspects of astrology, I would have nothing to say. But you > > constantly harped on debilitated Mars and Moon and badhaka to > > colorize your statement and make it full of negative connotations. > > Whereas you should go to arudhas and tried to gauge that > > significance first. There is plenty of well known examples of > > personas you could choose to drive you meager point home. But no ! > > you chose my name and my data and used your understanding that I > > attack people out of a sense of insecurity. That is INEXCUSABLE. It > > speaks volumes of you are a person and your understanding of real > > philosophy. And this also shows why "little learning can be > > dangerous" and shows the pitfalls of limited learning and > > application of astrology. In essence, your reading is no more > > worthwhile to read that Sun Sign astrology they publish in women's > > magazines. > > > > But finally looking back, I don't mind -- someone's littleness > > should not affect me. > > > > Jai Ma > > > > Sourav > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > vedic astrology, "natalcharts_biz" > > <natalcharts_biz> wrote: > > > Dear Sri Pathakji > > > > > > I fully agree with your views. My apologies to you on my comments. > > > > > > However, they were not to speak against Sourav but to bring about > > the > > > fact that each one is bound to a certain extent to the grahas and > > > their interactions between the two charts which define > > relationships. > > > > > > And therefore, each one should be given a chance to speak like Mark > > > did. He has not written against or for something, just what he > > > believes is right. > > > > > > Secondly, why do some people here consider that they have a > > superior > > > understanding of the subject? By having a strong belief you can > > hardly > > > call yourself an astrologer. Can't a master learn from a disciple? > > > Is it not explained in our sastras that wise can even learn from > > > insentient things? > > > > > > To Sourav, I never described Saturn's effect on the moon while you > > > gave us a lecture on the same. You prove my point. Thanks. But I > > > haven't written against you: if you do not have the traits that I > > > mentioned I think you are blessed. If you do, then it is best to > > > tackle them at the earliest if you so wish. > > > > > > If you read with a calm mind, the post is all about freedom of > > > expression and I found it very strange that in an open forum Mark's > > > views were attacked. If you do not agree, you could ask him > > questions > > > or ignore him. > > > > > > The same can be done to my views. You can ignore them if you want. > > > > > > Furthermore, Sourav what you call as my sarcastic statement: IT > > was a > > > statement of great Teacher Sri Ramakrishna Paramhansa that those > > who > > > are empty of knowledge have maximum disturbance at any influx of a > > > circumstance. I have no ill feelings towards anyone and like you > > said > > > I hardly know you to have ill feelings towards you. It was to help > > you > > > understand that reactiveness shows weakness. > > > > > > What you have learnt from your Gurus may be true for you. But > > please > > > do not try to stamp it on me. I am an independent being. > > > > > > Some questions for you Sourav. Give Scientific proofs and not just > > > reference from any text. Anyone who quotes Einstein does not > > become one: > > > 1. Why is the nature of the planets the way it is? Why is the > > nature > > > of Rasis the way it is? Who designed them in this way? What > > > intelligence lies behind all this facade? > > > 2. Why is graha dristi less powerful than rasi dristhi? > > > 3. Is Astrology a means to an end or an end in itself? > > > 4. Do you really believe that there is no more learning possible > > for you? > > > > > > There is a lot of astrology to be learnt and found out. I will not > > > close myself to any thought from any person, you are free to choose > > > you own stance. > > > > > > Hari Om Tat Sat > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > vedic astrology, "utpal pathak" > > > <vedic_pathak> wrote: > > > > Dear Sir, > > > > > > > > Though I have pulled-out from almost all the arguments, i could > > not > > > > resist to comment on this one. > > > > > > > > It was very bad on your part to request Mr. sourav for his > > birthdate > > > > (you even asked to give on personal mail) and then start > > discussing, > > > > on open forum, his weaknesses(??)(as sited to your ego). this > > > > violates basic code of conduct as a human. > > > > > > > > i hope, atleast this thing doesn't get repeated. > > > > > > > > best regards, > > > > > > > > Utpal > > > > > > > > vedic astrology, "Sourav Chowdhury" > > > > <souravc108> wrote: > > > > > || Hare Rama Krishna || > > > > > || Om Gurave Namah || > > > > > > > > > > Dear Natalcharts_biz, > > > > > > > > > > Namaskar. Nice attempt at analysis of my > > mind > > > > > reaction. My comments below: > > > > > > > > > > 1. Graha drishti is not the only consideration. Rasi drishti > > is more > > > > > important as it is a life-long effect. Courage comes from the > > third > > > > > house (Leo) that is giving its full aspect to my fifth house > > where > > > > > Moon recides. Saturn is giving its full 3rd aspect from the > > same > > > > > house on Moon. Saturn being the co-lord of the 9H of dharma or > > > > > righteousness brings that effect too. > > > > > > > > > > 2. What you have seen as my attacking nature is a perception > > of me > > > > > and hence you should judge it from Arudhas. If Arudhas do not > > > > > confirm your conclusion, don't go for it because if may be > > that you > > > > > are seeing something and deciding something based on what you > > are > > > > > seeing but not acknowledging what you are seeing. Besides, you > > have > > > > > only known me for a week or two and only over a couple of e- > > mails. > > > > > Hence, don't judge me from houses themselves, and try to > > understand > > > > > arudhas. > > > > > > > > > > 3. A few days ago I asked you one question: I said that I have > > A3 in > > > > > Aries. What it means ? You avoided answering the question and > > in > > > > > reply gave this bit of sarcasm: " empty vessels sounds much ". > > A3 in > > > > > Aries shows that a person's writings will be "perceived as" > > full of > > > > > martian energy and to some it may appear as attacking. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I didn't go about vilifying you for your previous response. I > > > > > understand there are different natures of persons and Lord > > manifests > > > > > in everything. I never attack a person, I attack ideas which I > > find > > > > > wrong. My nature lends me the courage. Understand your own self > > > > > before understanding others and announcing your such opinions > > in a > > > > > public forum. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > > > Sourav > > > > > > > =================================================================== > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > vedic astrology, "natalcharts_biz" > > > > > <natalcharts_biz> wrote: > > > > > > Some correction of Typos, Please excuse: > > > > > > > > > > > > I agree with Mark. This is a discussion group on Jyotish. If > > > > > members > > > > > > only want to change others to "their ideas or beliefs" on > > Jyotish, > > > > > > then, they show their own weakness not to give enough > > freedom or > > > > > > respect to others. > > > > > > > > > > > > Without naming, someone also mentioned about using Jyotish > > > > > estorically > > > > > > is wrong. In this view, I would like to remind that Jyotish > > is a > > > > > > Vedanga. Vedanga is a means to study the Veda. The words > > Veda > > > > means > > > > > > knowledge and it is a pramaana (Sri Adi Sankara) that > > whatever > > > > that > > > > > > is, is Brahman (Truth, Sat Chit Ananda). > > > > > > > > > > > > Therefore Jyotish becomes a means to know that. The Vedas > > talk > > > > > about > > > > > > the self binding due to ignorance of Truth. Jyotish helps us > > > > > > understand the bindings (grahas as seizers have that effect) > > and > > > > > gives > > > > > > us anti dotes to come out of it. > > > > > > > > > > > > That it enables us to see future effects of bindings is > > extra > > > > > option. > > > > > > Like I asked for Sourav's birth details the other day: I > > found > > > > him > > > > > to > > > > > > be overreactive to people's thoughts and suggestions. In > > reaction, > > > > > > many people also reacted back at him. I found his mind > > (moon) > > > > > aspected > > > > > > both by Mars and Saturn. And Mars is debilitated and > > therefore > > > > > Sourav > > > > > > is prone to thinking that any person not agreeing to his > > view > > > > > point is > > > > > > an adversary. It does not come from courage but comes from > > his > > > > > > thinking that he would lose this battle of words and > > therefore, > > > > his > > > > > > own low self esteem gets lower (debilitated Mangal). He, > > > > therefore, > > > > > > requires > > > > > > continuous good appraisal from other friends and "masters", > > which > > > > > keep > > > > > > him happy. > > > > > > > > > > > > He, is thus bound by it and reacts. Yet, he has lessened his > > > > > reacting > > > > > > since he has come in touch with his Guru. This is a fact > > that only > > > > > > Sourav can confirm. Guru, being a badhaka (taking lagna to > > be > > > > > gemini > > > > > > and I choose not to correct it), has bound his reactive > > nature and > > > > > > created a badhana to that expression. So one bandan causes > > > > reaction > > > > > > and the other stalls it. > > > > > > > > > > > > I also would like to say something to those who reacted to > > his > > > > > > statements. By understanding jyotish, you all need not have > > > > > reacted to > > > > > > his stance for he is governed by grahas too (to the extent > > he > > > > lets > > > > > them) > > > > > > > > > > > > I choose to leave such an analysis here and now but pray to > > the > > > > > > subtler intellect of all members to let everyone speak their > > know- > > > > > how. > > > > > > It will only add to the learning. > > > > > > > > > > > > Hari Om Tat Sat > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > vedic astrology, Mark Kincaid > > > > > <m.kincaid@m...> > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Dear Mu: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Well, this is obviously where we differ. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In fact, you don't have to take advantage of my > > perspective > > > > or > > > > > my > > > > > > ideas. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's really not up to you, really to judge or to critize. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But, I'll say this, because you seem to not be able to > > get > > > > > away from > > > > > > > your > > > > > > > > own Mars in Virgo, propensity to continually critizize, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'll say, I am following my heart with reference to > > Jyotish, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > and especially I'm following my Guru's prompts. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I am a student of his Holiness Maharishi Mahesh Yogi, > > who is > > > > > one > > > > > > of the > > > > > > > > most fascinating and unique scholoars of all Vedic > > Science, > > > > > and he > > > > > > > himself, > > > > > > > > has followed a path of what he calls: "enlivening and > > > > > revising, this > > > > > > > > ancient Wisdom." > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm also coming from a deeply, transformative aspect of > > Vedic > > > > > Science, > > > > > > > > which stems from my over 35 years of transcendental > > > > experience. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My Maharishi has often said there are a number of very > > > > > important > > > > > > > present day > > > > > > > > aspects of Ved that are incorrect or mistaken. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > One of the most important is that it's very difficult to > > > > > evolve, and > > > > > > > very > > > > > > > > hard to find enlightenment. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In this regard he has said his re-interpretation and > > insight > > > > > into > > > > > > > the nature > > > > > > > > of meditation, has completely changed and begun a > > process of > > > > > complete > > > > > > > > re-understanding as to the value, scope and > > possibilities of > > > > > > meditation. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Likewise, Maharishi has spent many years now, working > > with > > > > > each of > > > > > > > the Vedic > > > > > > > > Sciences, and where it's been necessary helping the > > Vedic > > > > > Pundits and > > > > > > > > Scholars re-work, and revitalize this ancient wisdom. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'll mention one example of yaguas. Yaguas have been > > there > > > > > > forever, in > > > > > > > > Indian culture and are described as very beneficial Vedic > > > > > > > performances to > > > > > > > > improve the quality of life of individuals and society > > as a > > > > > whole. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > However, Maharishi has said the success of these > > performances > > > > > and of > > > > > > > yaguas > > > > > > > > has been lacking because the key to their success has > > been > > > > > lacking. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The key, according to Maharishi has been the inner > > > > > consciousness > > > > > > of the > > > > > > > > Vedic pundits. But, because the enlivenment of the > > field of > > > > > pure > > > > > > > awareness > > > > > > > > has not been there, then the performances have not been > > as > > > > > > successful as > > > > > > > > possible. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Maharishi has put attention on all the Vedic Sciences > > > > including > > > > > > > Ghandharva, > > > > > > > > Yoga, Stapyaved, and even Jyotish. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And, though I'm not formally working for the Maharish's > > World- > > > > > wide > > > > > > > movement, > > > > > > > > I can honestly say, my development and insights into > > Jyotish > > > > > come > > > > > > > from this > > > > > > > > unique development in the entire field of Vedic Science. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Now, you are free to enjoy and appreciate or not my > > Jyotish, > > > > > just > > > > > > > like I can > > > > > > > > feel one way or another about 'yours'. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > However, I would suggest you put your attention on your > > own > > > > > > Jyotish, and > > > > > > > > leave your so-called constructive criticisms to God. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I would also suggest if you don't appreciate my Jyotish > > that > > > > > you > > > > > > > leave the > > > > > > > > that I've created since we don't seem to be > > able > > > > > to > > > > > > > converse, > > > > > > > > without this rancor, and irritableness which I don't > > > > especially > > > > > > > appreciate. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sincerely, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mark Kincaid > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mu'Min Bey <mumin_bey> > > > > > > > > > panastroforum@t... > > > > > > > > > Thu, 28 Apr 2005 09:22:03 -0700 (PDT) > > > > > > > > > , Vedic Astrology > > > > > > > > > <vedic astrology>, "Jyotish > > Remedies..." > > > > > > > > > <>, "b) > > " > > > > > > > > > <>, panastroforum@t... > > > > > > > > > Open Letter to Mark Kincaid On Vedic > > Astrological > > > > > > > Matters, Etc. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Your free subscription is supported by today's sponsor: > > > > > > > > > ------------------ ---- > > ----- > > > > - > > > > > ------ > > > > > > > > > Erase wrinkles without Botox! > > > > > > > > > Nexiderm SP is clinically proven to reduce wrinkles by > > 68%. > > > > > Click > > > > > > > > > here to start looking younger today! > > > > > > > > > http://click.topica.com/caadslIbUrFgkb7vZsVa/Nexiderm > > > > > > > > > ------------------ ---- > > ----- > > > > - > > > > > ------ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Open Letter to Mark Kincaid On Vedic Astrological > > > > > > > > > Matters, Etc. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 11:55 AM 4/27/05 Wed > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Mark, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I have watched your activities for some time, mostly > > > > > > > > > with a good degree of dismay. I say that because of > > > > > > > > > the general tenor and tone of your writings and so on, > > > > > > > > > which is more and more becoming eblematic of Vedic > > > > > > > > > Astrology in the West/USA; in other words, they're > > > > > > > > > becoming bascially, Jyotish in Western Astrology drag. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > More and more jyotishis in the West have taken to > > > > > > > > > aping their Western Astrology "betters" by adopting > > > > > > > > > the aforementioned thinking, which you speak so > > > > > > > > > glowingly of in your most recent "ad"; > > > > > > > > > "self-improvement". > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Without question, Vedic Astrology recognizes > > > > > > > > > self-improvement as much as any of the branches of > > > > > > > > > Western Astrology does; but Jyotish also recognizes > > > > > > > > > that there are some things in this life that cannot be > > > > > > > > > avoided, and indeed, much of Jyotish's philosophical > > > > > > > > > framework operates on this idea. Therefore, although a > > > > > > > > > person may be able to use a "remedy" to avoid the more > > > > > > > > > uglier aspects of a particular combination, it may be > > > > > > > > > better for that person in the long run to endure the > > > > > > > > > results of said combination, for the betterment of > > > > > > > > > that person later on down the line. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Having intensely involved with Vedic Astrology since > > > > > > > > > the late 90s, I have watched as more and more American > > > > > > > > > Vedic astrologers basically copying the thinking and > > > > > > > > > even methods of the Western astrologers (aside from > > > > > > > > > the "quick fix remedy" approaches, the increasing use > > > > > > > > > of Western Outer Planets in the Vedic horoscope and so > > > > > > > > > on). Perhaps even more disturbing, is this tendency on > > > > > > > > > the part of so many American jyotishis to have a > > > > > > > > > "hippie" type of approach, where all manner of new age > > > > > > > > > mysticism is brought into what the vast majority of > > > > > > > > > Indians consider to be a rather straightfoward affair > > > > > > > > > - going to see an astrologer and getting no- nonsense > > > > > > > > > information and answers to life's everyday problems. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Being one that seems to have some level of > > > > > > > > > understanding of India, you surely must know that > > > > > > > > > Indians rarely seek out jyotishis for "the meaning of > > > > > > > > > life". About a third of all my clients are IN India, > > > > > > > > > and in some 6 years, I have yet to have one ask me for > > > > > > > > > such info. In the main, their concerns fall into > > > > > > > > > pretty distinct, and I would say, mundane, areas: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1. Marital prospects, either for themselves and/or > > > > > > > > > their kids > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 2. Business concerns, which often includes > > > > > > > > > educational, career, licensing and/or immigration > > > > > > > > > concerns > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 3. Health concerns, which usually concerns the onset > > > > > > > > > and duration of a particular ailment or disease. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The argument is often raised here in the States that > > > > > > > > > people here want to understand themselves and the > > > > > > > > > like, but again, my own experience on the ground, > > > > > > > > > since the early 90s (when I began my Western Astrology > > > > > > > > > studies) controverts this. In the main, my native born > > > > > > > > > clientele aren't that much different from my off- shore > > > > > > > > > clients - they pretty much want the same things. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In short, it is my contention that so many of the > > > > > > > > > American born jyotishis simply "want" to inject their > > > > > > > > > own spiritual opinions and the like. Most Americans > > > > > > > > > have no interest in such things. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Among the many problems I have with you, Mr. Kincaid, > > > > > > > > > is that you continually stray from the heart of > > > > > > > > > Jyotish, with your long and meandering writings about > > > > > > > > > the planets, and how one is supposed to "work" with > > > > > > > > > them in the way Western modern astrologers advocate; > > > > > > > > > one is hard pressed to find such support in either the > > > > > > > > > Jyotish classics or in the more modern writings of > > > > > > > > > such people as KN Rao or BV Raman, etc. While reading > > > > > > > > > your writings, it is difficult to grasp what you are > > > > > > > > > advocating, a Vedic or Western astrological approach. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Furthermore, I find less and less your writing having > > > > > > > > > to do with actual research and observation - areas > > > > > > > > > that would demand brevity of expression and accuracy > > > > > > > > > as a prerequisite - but more about speculation and > > > > > > > > > flights of fancy; you don't use preceedant (classical > > > > > > > > > or modern) to backup your writings and the like, but > > > > > > > > > rather "individualism" as your authority - something > > > > > > > > > that is clearly at variance with any Jyotishical > > > > > > > > > teaching (but is the rage in Western modern astrology, > > > > > > > > > where anything can mean anything to anyone; this why > > > > > > > > > Western astrologers can't agree on basic things like > > > > > > > > > Saturn Retrograde, for example). On several occasions > > > > > > > > > in your forum, we have gone back and forth on this > > > > > > > > > point, to which you have yet to respond with any > > > > > > > > > actual studies, research or case examples to back up > > > > > > > > > your ruminations. Such things are not only outside the > > > > > > > > > Jyotish canon, theory and practice, but also puts it > > > > > > > > > at greater risk for "anybody" to just come in and do > > > > > > > > > their thing. Here in the USA, the quick fix is in, and > > > > > > > > > anything that smacks of doing the harder work of > > > > > > > > > study, reflection and experience is eschewed in the > > > > > > > > > name of rapidity and indulgence without consequences. > > > > > > > > > All of this is anathema to Jyotish practice and > > > > > > > > > thought. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The other problem I have with you is in your continual > > > > > > > > > "hawking" of your products and services. Many native > > > > > > > > > born jyotishis, including Rao and Raman, have had > > > > > > > > > choice words for those who would market their > > > > > > > > > services. I tend to be deeply suspicious of such > > > > > > > > > people, for my own experience has shown me that those > > > > > > > > > who give their Jyotish knowledge without thought of > > > > > > > > > reward, tend to be far and away more accurate and to > > > > > > > > > the point than those who don't. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It is my hope that you put your energy more into focus > > > > > > > > > on the heart of Jyotish, where it is my contention you > > > > > > > > > are likely to make the most impact. On the present > > > > > > > > > course, your and other's actions only serve to muddy > > > > > > > > > the already murky waters of the Astrological science > > > > > > > > > and how it's seen by the public. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Salaam, > > > > > > > > > Mu > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- Mark Kincaid <m.kincaid@m...> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> Become Your Own Best > > > > > > > > >> Astrologer! > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> A friend of mine mentioned to me the other day, that > > > > > > > > >> it's recently > > > > > > > > >> been projected that the "4th most in-demand, job, in > > > > > > > > >> the future, will > > > > > > > > >> be Astrologers." > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> I laughed when I heard that. I think it might be > > > > > > > > >> true! > > > > > > > > >> Certainly it's been my experience that becoming a > > > > > > > > >> professional Astrologer, > > > > > > > > >> is the best thing I've ever done. I used to be a > > > > > > > > >> Meditation teacher, which > > > > > > > > >> I loved a lot. However, when I discovered > > > > > > > > >> Astrology, I found an even more > > > > > > > > >> comprehensive knowledge that actually incorporates > > > > > > > > >> every aspect of life. > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> See, not everyone's ready for, quote: 'meditation', > > > > > > > > >> or a spiritual life. > > > > > > > > >> Most > > > > > > > > >> people just want to become a greater success, in > > > > > > > > >> this life! > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> Well, Astrology understands that and has in fact, > > > > > > > > >> very insightful things > > > > > > > > >> to say for any individual that wants to become more > > > > > > > > >> of a success in life. > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> All of us, in these Astrology 'groups' are learning > > > > > > > > >> such amazing things re- > > > > > > > > >> lated to Astrology and life. > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> #1, the symbolisms of Astrology, 'fit'! In fact, > > > > > > > > >> there's a very precise > > > > > > > > >> 1to1 > > > > > > > > >> Correspondence between all the details of our live's > > > > > > > > >> and our Astrological > > > > > > > > >> charts. > > > > > > > > >> This is what's underlying all our questions and > > > > > > > > >> answers, and what it means > > > > > > > > >> to have the Moon in the 3rd house, with Mars & > > > > > > > > >> Venus. Or, why am I so > > > > > > > > >> unconventionally creative? Or, why do I have so > > > > > > > > >> many accidents? Or, why > > > > > > > > >> am I attracted to engineering? Or, why do I have > > > > > > > > >> tensions with my Mother, > > > > > > > > >> but not my Father? Or, why do I ......? > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> For every conceivable question; there's a clear and > > > > > > > > >> precise Astrological > > > > > > > > >> reason! > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> This fact, alone, is why Astrology has continued for > > > > > > > > >> all these centuries. > > > > > > > > >> It Works! > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> Each one of us, however, needs to know this. > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> In the past, it was enough to just go to a > > > > > > > > >> professional Astrologer, whenever > > > > > > > > >> we > > > > > > > > >> had questions, or problems in our life. Now, > > > > > > > > >> millions of individuals are > > > > > > > > >> wanting > > > > > > > > >> to know their own Astrology, for themselves! > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> In this spirit I am starting a new , that > > > > > > > > >> will be totally focused > > > > > > > > >> on > > > > > > > > >> learning each and every aspect of our Astrology. It > > > > > > > > >> will be primarily > > > > > > > > >> Jyotish, or > > > > > > > > >> Eastern Astrology, based, though many of the best > > > > > > > > >> ideas of Western > > > > > > > > >> Astrology, > > > > > > > > >> including the possibility that our Astrology is also > > > > > > > > >> about our futures, and > > > > > > > > >> latent > > > > > > > > >> opportunities, in life, will also be discussed. > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> #2 This leads me to my second point. Astrology > > > > > > > > >> traditionally has been > > > > > > > > >> about > > > > > > > > >> one's 'fate' or pre-determinism. In other words, it > > > > > > > > >> was based very strongly > > > > > > > > >> in the > > > > > > > > >> feeling that this life, that our Astrology charts, > > > > > > > > >> are mostly about the > > > > > > > > >> things that 'will' happen. > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> I remember when I first started studying Jyotish way > > > > > > > > >> back in 1988. Every > > > > > > > > >> book you'd pick up would have approximately 195 > > > > > > > > >> pages on the Astrology, or > > > > > > > > >> how > > > > > > > > >> our charts fit us. And, then, at the very end, 5 > > > > > > > > >> pages on something called > > > > > > > > >> Remedial > > > > > > > > >> Measures. Almost like an afterthought, I thought, > > > > > > > > >> tacked on at the end. > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> Even back then, I thought this percentage was very > > > > > > > > >> imbalanced. Perhaps it > > > > > > > > >> was > > > > > > > > >> because of my strong, meditative background. Even > > > > > > > > >> in 1988, I'd already been > > > > > > > > >> meditating for over 18 years and growing in all the > > > > > > > > >> values of profound > > > > > > > > >> self-improvement. > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> So, the idea of Jyotish remedial measures, of course > > > > > > > > >> made sense. Over the > > > > > > > > >> years, > > > > > > > > >> however, I realized the % was all wrong. Eventually > > > > > > > > >> I realized it should be > > > > > > > > >> more like, > > > > > > > > >> 50/50! It's not enough to just intellectually > > > > > > > > >> 'understand' why we're the > > > > > > > > >> way we are. > > > > > > > > >> The nature of human life, includes the fact that we > > > > > > > > >> want to grow. We want > > > > > > > > >> to improve > > > > > > > > >> ourselves, and accomplish certain things, which are > > > > > > > > >> really about the > > > > > > > > >> 'transformative' > > > > > > > > >> side to life. 2% is not nearly enough! > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> Now, many years later, I realize even spending 50% > > > > > > > > >> of your time, discovering > > > > > > > > >> why > > > > > > > > >> we're the way we are, is not really necessary. Now > > > > > > > > >> I understand one needs > > > > > > > > >> to spend, > > > > > > > > >> only as much time, figuring out the 'whys' of > > > > > > > > >> Astrology; till one desires > > > > > > > > >> the ability to > > > > > > > > >> change. > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> Today, I constantly run into people, who after just > > > > > > > > >> one conversation about > > > > > > > > >> how their > > > > > > > > >> Saturn or Mars, or Rahu, is causing their problems; > > > > > > > > >> then say: "Okay!, What > > > > > > > > >> can I do > > > > > > > > >> to improve my Saturn!" Maybe it should be more like > > > > > > > > >> 30/70%. Spend 30% of > > > > > > > > >> your time > > > > > > > > >> figuring out 'why' and then spend 70% of one's time > > > > > > > > >> and energy, in improving > > > > > > > > >> the > > > > > > > > >> malefics, in our charts! > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> Whatever the percentage, the age of self- improvement > > > > > > > > >> is upon us, and > > > > > > > > >> Astrology can > > > > > > > > >> lead the way. However, Astrology needs to stop > > > > > > > > >> becoming so wrapped up in > > > > > > > > >> 'fate' and > > > > > > > > >> pre-destiny, and begin focusing on transformation > > > > > > > > >> and self-development. > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> It's really what we're here to do. We're not here, > > > > > > > > >> to just go through the > > > > > > > > >> motions, and > > > > > > > > >> live our lives, from a level of puppet, > > > > > > > > >> pre-determinism. No! We're meant > > > > > > > > >> to grow. > > > > > > > > >> We're meant to evolve. The fascinating thing is, we > > > > > > > > >> can still choose, to > > > > > > > > >> evolve more slowly. > > > > > > > > >> But, the 'choice' is up to us! > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> #2 Therefore the second most important aspect of > > > > > > > > >> Jyotish and Astrology is > > > > > > > > >> self-improvement. > > > > > > > > >> I like the word transformation because some say that > > > > > > > > >> Jyotish/Astrology rules > > > > > > > > >> the 8th house. > > > > > > > > >> And some like to describe the 8th house, not as > > > > > > > > >> fate, or death, or 'fixed' > > > > > > > > >> qualities, like obsessions, > > > > > > > > >> and addictions. Some call the 8th house, the house > > > > > > > > >> of transformation! > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> Look at the United State's chart. Several very > > > > > > > > >> important planets in the 8th > > > > > > > > >> house of > > > > > > > > >> self-transformation. And, if there was any quality > > > > > > > > >> that has dominated the > > > > > > > > >> life of America; > > > > > > > > >> it's been self-improvement. > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> In the early days it was progressing, rapidly across > > > > > > > > >> the plains of America. > > > > > > > > >> Later that thirst to grow, became more internalized > > > > > > > > >> and > > > > > > > > > === message truncated === > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mu'Min M. Bey > > > > > > > > > Western and Vedic Astrologer > > > > > > > > > Check out my site: > > > > > > > > > muminbey.tripod.com > > > > > > > > > "The Future of Astrology, is Here..." > > > > > > > > > AOL IM Screen Name: JediMu > > > > > > > > > Join the Pan Astrological Forum, Where Freedom in > > > > > Astrological > > > > > > > Thought Lives! > > > > > > > > > Just send a blank email to panastroforum- @t... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Tired of spam? 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