Guest guest Posted May 26, 2004 Report Share Posted May 26, 2004 Astrology and The Gender Divide: Discourses On the State of Our Relationship Art Wed, May 26, 2004 Because a great number of people have contacted me in gratitude for my humble writings on the question of relationship, marriage and so on, I have decided to share these writings which originally appeared on the Pan Astrological Forum. What appears below are a series of thoughts and opinions by me and other respected members of the PAF. I am hopeful that they spark thought and promote meaningful discussion on the matters discussed therein. Very Interesting Book: "Mismatch" Mu'Min Bey May 24, 2004 15:53 PDT Very Interesting Book: "Mismatch" Hi All, Since there tends to be alot of discussion on relationships both here and elsewhere, I thought to bring this up. It's about a very good book I recently read called Mismatch, by Andrew Hacker, who also wrote Two Nations. Mismatch deals with the increasing gulf between the sexes, of all colors, here in America. Among other things, Hacker suggests that, since 1980, women are the ones who initiate divorce, with the majority of men wanting to keep the marriages intact. He also cites the fact that while women have gone on into higher education, more and more men, again of all colors, have not. Put this together with increased legal, sexual and social freedoms of women, and we can see some of the reasons why marriage as an institution continues on a downward spiral. Hacker suggests, based on his research and findings, that the major reason why things are the way they are right now is because many women are not getting men who meet their standards - and it all doesn't have to do with money alone, although that is a factor. Rather, it has more to do with lack of shared values, which can happen when one goes on to college and the other does not...about men not having the sensibilities today's women expect, and so on. Interestingly, Hacker also points out in the book that Black people have seemed to adapt to these conditions...afterall, it is a well known fact that far more Black women have educational degrees (and all that comes with it) than Black men, on average. He notes that while Black people certainly have problems in this area, when compared to Whites, we have done much better. Hacker also predicts that, if the current situation continues among the White population, they will surpass our current marriage/divorce/our of wedlock rate (again, keep in mind, please, we're talking about educated, upwardly mobile WHITE WOMEN, NOT teenage moms of the kind you would see on a Jerry Springer show) - and he suggests that perhaps the White community could learn something from ours in this respect. Hacker also deals with a very important, sensitive question - what does it mean to be a man, today, in 2004? In an age where more and more people work in the office, not the fields; where more and more women are getting the jobs once the sole province of men; and where there are fewer and fewer outlets for traditional male behavior (hunting, for example, but there are many others)? Put this together with the skyrocketing sales of Viagra, all the "cops" TV shows, the Gangsta Rap movement in the Black community, and the all-pervasive Sports Economy here in the USA, it all points to some serious questions that need answering. Perhaps a major part of the problem, is that men have yet to define for themselves, what it means to be a man. From all that I have seen thus far, it appears that it is Women are defining the concept. More and more women are waiting longer and longer to have kids, to marry, and so on...many women never have kids and/or marry at all (and this is something that we as Black folk know very well)...meanwhile, history the world over has shown what happens when you an unsocialized, large, virile male population with no sense of mission in life. Again, as Black folks, we know about this in ways that the White community are only now beginning to realize. In the meantime, Marriage, Family, and by extension, Community and Nation, are falling by the wayside. What I like about Hacker's works is he doesn't take it upon himself to solve the world's problems - he leaves such things to others. What he does is lays out the data, brings perspective to it, and leaves it to the rest of us to hash out. I've only touched on a few points he makes in the book, and I would highly urge everyone reading this to check it out. Salaam, Mu "Mismatch" - Zam Mu'Min Bey May 25, 2004 13:55 PDT Hi Zam, Without question, women have historically been victim to ruthless beatings and the like. I know about spousal abuse very well, having witnessed it in various forms over the years, involving female loved ones. Your point here has considerable merit. However, since 1980, spousal abuse awareness, coupled with legal action, has reduced things considerably. This is not to say that spousal abuse has disappeared, but it IS to say that it's far more problematic for a man to assault a woman today in 2004 than it was 30 years ago. That being said, and hacker points this out in his book, many women are opting for divorce not because of abuse and/or infidelity, but rather because of what they perceive as the lack of shared experiences and sensibilities. Because today's climate is more conducive to woman's independence, more and more women are opting out of marriage for reasons that, if were 50 years ago, our grandmothers would look at these women as if they had a eye in the middle of their foreheads. Furthermore, the stats also clearly points to the fact that most men, who do not initiate divorce, usually start up families elsewhere...in the Black community, for example, it is well known that a man can go off and either start up a new family or join an existing one. I think this clearly debunks the notion that men are afraid to commit. Rather, this is about expectations, particularly on the female side of the aisle. As Hacker points out in his book, men's needs simply aren't as complex as most women's...I know that's not a PC thing to say, but for the most part, for people who have lived for any length of time, they know what i'm saying is true, for the most part. Most men want a fairly attractive woman who is nice, fairly good in bed and can cook a decent meal. That she also can burn it up in the corporate boardroom, or go off into a detailed analysis of Beowulf is a plus, but such things simply aren't a priority for most men. Because today's world is one that is much more focused on the college experience, everyone wants to think that they are more sophisticated than our forebears...and there is something to be said for this view, in comparison to our forebears. However, what many of us - and I do have to say in this case, women in the main - fail to take into account, is that human beings are for the most part, the same today we were a couple thousand years ago. My personal view is that many marriages and relationships fail because of failure to manage expectations - and again I have to direct this observation in the main toward the female side of the aisle. In my astrological work, I cannot recount how many female clients bemoan their inability to find a "suitable mate"...about the supposed lack of "eligible Black men"...and about how adamant these women were about not "settling for less". Yet they completely dismiss or overlook out of hand the many men who, while they may not have an MBA and earn 50K- plus/year, or be able to go through the motions at a wine and cheese affair, are good people nonetheless. That I never have heard such concerns from my male clients tells me that this tends to be more of a female concern and issue. When my Mom was dating my Dad, there were tensions; she was a 19 year old nurse with a brand new baby boy (me! ), living with her grandmother and trying to figure things out. My Dad was dating her, and pledged his love for her and her child, although that child was not biologically his own. There was a considerable age difference between the two - my Dad was 35 at the time. And, because my Mom came from the North, and my Dad from the South, there was regional differences and the like. And, in the mind of my grandmother, my Mom's mom, my Dad was hardly a catch - afterall, he was dark skinned, bald and had the obligatory gold tooth that so many Black folk from the South had then and now. My Mom sat down with my great-grandmother, and they had a heart to heart talk, the kind we don't much about these days. My GGM told my Mom the following: "Diane, I understand that Bob may not be all that you want him to be - but he loves you and that child. And you need a father for your son. You'll learn to love him". My Mom and my Dad married on April 1, 1969, in my GGM's living room. Make no mistake - my Mom and Dad had their share of problems, many of which I have recounted here and elsewhere - but if there is one thing I will always admire and respect about my Dad, is that he loved a woman enough to take her and her newborn child into his heart. And like my GGM said, my Mom did indeed "learn to love" my Dad. I guess my point is that today, such things would sound alien...and I guess in many ways they are now. Which is a true shame, because alot of relationships and marriages have needlessly fallen apart, in large part nowadays, because of unrealistic expectations on the part of many "liberated" women. That's my spiel for today. Salaam, Mu RE: "Mismatch" - Zam 2 Mu'Min Bey May 25, 2004 15:02 PDT Hi Zam, I think it would benefit you if you checked out Hacker's book. In it, he discuss the very thing we are discussing right now. Today's woman's needs are, all things being equal, simply more involved than today's man. I'm not one for simplicity, but in this case, all things being equal, it is. On top of this, instead of alot of women recognizing what's important - a good provider, a good dad, someone who shows a basic level of respect and caring, a decent lover, a committed man, a loyal mate and lover and so on - many women make demands of men that are in many ways, unrealistic. Further, in many ways, lots of women want men to think, act and see the world in the same way that they do. The reality, regardless of the reasons behind it, is that men who divorce almost always start up another family somewhere else - more often than not, with younger women than their first wives. This, along with the higher incidence of interracial marriage (the highest percentage being White men/Asian women) suggests that these men want things that their White female counterparts either can't or won't fulfill...in fact, the major reason cited by White men who marry Asian women is that they are perceived as less aggressive/assertive/hostile/demanding than White women. Sounds familiar, doesn't it? It's the very same thing alot of Black men say about Black women. And, in all fairness, while this isn't the PC thing to say, there is some truth behind it all. Men can get nuturing without having to get married, especially nowadays Zam...that so many men do remarry, says that it's about more than just getting mommied. I think the dirty little secret is, that alot of guys do want to settle into a stable situation, but have to contend with the allure of a "you can have it all" mindset that is so very pervasive here in America. Like you, I too happen to know several women who have opted to remain alone, some of them for more years than I care to recall. It's just inconceivable to think of a man voluntarily doing the same thing. I know I wouldn't, and I'm pretty sure you wouldn't voluntarily do it either. Again, it just shows that the needs of men and women, again, on average, are different. One more simpler, one a bit more complex. Not better or worse, just different. In any event, the prospect of spending a considerable portion alone without a significant other in your life is not something I look forward to with any sense of dignity. Indeed, I see that as so very sad. More in a minute. Salaam, Mu Zam- wrote: Hey, I don't know if women are any more complicated then men are , many women just have different needs,and they might be a little more numerous... I think the climate of independence , and the educational opportunities that women now have access to means that they aren't forced to remain in a bad relationships where they feel unfulfilled as they may have in the past, or where a man is there sole source of sustenance and income. Many are opting to not get married at all. I think also , that as we mature and learn more about ourselves, women have been able to actualize more about themselves and are more conscious of their emotional needs, which are often neglected by many men in relationships and so these women chose to break camp or remain single rather than get locked into an unfullfilling situation. I think that too often in our communities, many men who leave one women or are divorced by an ex aren't looking to create another family as much as find another women, another safe haven and hook up with a someone who will nurture them. Inevitably the women becomes pregnant and therefore he has another family by default. Not sure if most men deliberately go after those situations more than they just happen by circumstance and need. I still dont believe that most guys prefer marriage to the single life, especially in our community, and im not knocking them....lol "Mismatch" - From a Vedic Perspective... Mu'Min Bey May 25, 2004 15:45 PDT All, While we're going back and forth here, I thought to throw this in the mix... Many of you know that I am a Vedic astrologer, and have spent a considerable amount of time immersed in that culture. Indeed, at least half of my entire clientele are Indian born. And the chief concern the majority of them have, is marriage. As many of you know, in India, today, arranged marriage is very common. I am often called upon to "hookup" the charts of two people who have yet to meet in person; the parents of the bride and groom are usually the ones who do the legwork. After doing this for some years now, and comparing it to what we are discussing today, I think there is something to be said for their worldview. Indians, overall, have a totally different understanding of marriage than the average American does today. The understand that marriage is more than just about the hubbie and wifey, but rather it is a contract that impacts the entire family, community indeed even nation. Because of the great impact this institution makes on everyone, the extended family in India takes an active and aggressive role in the potential coming together of two people. Because of the history of India, they have a great knack for finding the goodness in everything, no matter how bad. Most Indians, even today, understand full well what their options are (or aren't, I should say) and therefore are content to get what they can and move forward. They have no illusions that they "can have it all" and so on. Their major concern is in finding a mate who has a spiritual center, is kind, and has a similiar outlook on life. For an Indian - even an Americanized one - the notion of divorce is horrible. Thus one of the many reasons why so much work is put into astrological matching two people for marriage. Indians value above all else, longevity of marriage, even if it comes at the price of "pizzazz", etc. Here in America, and increasingly moreso throughout the Western world, people divorce at the drop of a hat. Which in turn, has a disasterous effect on our Society as a whole. The one thing I admire most about the Indian view of marriage is in how they have learned to manage expectations...to accept what can and cannot be done. Of course, this brings in the whole philosophy of Karma and the like, which in and of itself is anathema, even to those here in the USA who consider themselves "spiritual"...they are far too Americanized than they are willing to admit and so while they may talk a mean game about spirituality and like, they really ain't buying all that Fate and Karma crap. Here in America, you can be whatever you want to be, no matter who don't like it, and no matter who it might impact. The Individual is everything. Period. So we see that Ego is rampant here in America with regard to marriage (and just about everything else for that matter)...think about it. All those bridal books, the ones that amount to the size of a phone book...these are clearly for the bride, as is the large majority of the wedding ceremony. And, we can cite other things from the hubbie's side of the aisle. And we can go on. While Zam continues to argue the notion that a number of women want men who are emotionally available and so on, again, it seems from the data presented by Hacker and others that that only seems to be only a part of the story. At least as important, is again, the sensibilities, nuances and out and out physical demands many women make of today's men. A good example of this comes in the sexual arena. Much is well known about the "minute man" thing, and how much attention this has gotten in recent years. And while there is something to be said for men improving in this area so as to be more satisfying to their mates, in all fairness, a good bit can be said about the situation in reverse as well. True, most men aren't hung like a horse and can screw twice as long, but in fairness, as any man can attest to, there are a good number of women out there that, instead of looking like "da bomb" end up actually being "a bomb" in bed. And while it's true that a good number of men could stand to improve in the romance department overall, we can also say with some degree of certainty, that there's a good number of women who ain't likely to be second coming of Vanessa Del Rio, either. The point that I'm making is that if you have unrealistic expectations in this - or indeed, any area - you are only setting yourself and your relationship up for a major downfall, because those are ideals to which the vast majority of people, at any time, anywhere, can only strive, but rarely achieve. I think this is why the Vedic system of astrological compatibility is in many ways genious, because it evaluates the major areas of marital life, as well as the overall mental, emotional and physical state of the couple in ways that even today's Western astrology cannot even think about approaching. And the Indian way of life has more focus on one's duty to society - which includes the extended family - than it does on individual gratification. I think it's something we as astrologers need to think about. Salaam, Mu Zam- wrote: In a message dated 5/25/2004 6:02:58 PM Eastern Daylight Time, mumin- writes:> On top of this, instead of alot of women recognizing what's important - a good provider, a good dad, someone who shows a basic level of respect and caring, a decent lover, a committed man, a loyal mate and lover and so on - many women make demands of men that are in many ways, unrealistic. Further, in many ways, lots of women want men to think, act and see the world in the same way that they do. Zam : I think that most women do want those very things and not much more than that, but they find it difficult to find a man who will be those things, and not controlling, and not physically abusive, and not emotionally distant and not insenstive to her feelings, and definitely not a philanderer......I really dont think that women really are asking that much of men , especially if you see the types of relatonships that many women remain in simply becasue they want to try and make it work out.It's in womens nature to make a man 'become" or to push and prod him to actualize himself, thats a part of the nurturing process, however I odnt think that the average women has these ridiculous demands , or expectations for the most part, even if some of them might be difficult to get laong with in some ways. More "Mismatch" & Astrological Thoughts - Zam, All Mu'Min Bey May 26, 2004 13:54 PDT Hi Zam, Everyone, I just wanted to add a few more thoughts on this topic. I think far too much is made of the headcase guys among us - the abusers, the adulterers, the general knuckleheads. Please don't get me wrong, such beings do continue to exist, but I think if we're all honest with ourselves and each other, we would have to agree that such behavior has sharply declined over the past 25 years. Since "The Burning Bed", spousal abuse, for example, simply isn't the same animal it was prior to the 1980s. Today, it is far, far more problematic for a man, any man, to assault a woman with impunity. Stringent laws and the enforcement of those laws, make the lives of men who offend very difficult...and painful. Indeed, as the current ordeal of Kobe Bryant shows, just the accusation of Rape can ruin a man for life. In no way am I saying that women still don't get mistreated in the most brutal of ways...but let me offer an analogy. 50 years ago, automotive safety was virtually nonexistent...there weren't even safety belts installed in cars back then, not to mention shatter-proof glass, rollover bars and the rest of it. 50 years later, we have cars made of materials that protect the passengers from the worst of the impact from an oncoming vehicle...most cars today have airbags standard, in some cases on the driver's, passenger's, and sides...and safety belts are as strong today as ever. As someone who has walked away from a number of car accidents, I can personally attest to the vast improvements of auto safety over the years. Now, does that mean that people cannot still be killed in car crashes? Certainly not - just making the point that things HAVE improved - markedly. I make the same argument with respect to our current topic on women. So I think we kind of do ourselves a disservice to focus on what I consider to be in many ways red herring topics...and again, as Hacker points out in the book, the issue isn't one of life or death, or financial survival, but again one of the real or perceived lack of shared sensibilities, values and experiences that today's women expect and demand of their potential mates. It is very important for us to focus the debate here NOT on the working class man or woman - in the main, that class of people simply don't have these problems. Rather, and I think this is important for us to consider as astrologers (for most of us anyway, because our clients tend to come from the middle class) - the issue is coming from that growing sector of upwardly mobile, college educated female class. Trying to "mix and match" the classes in this regard only muddies the waters and gets us nowhere. I wanted to challenge Zam's notion of men hooking up with women after divorce because they want to be "mommied" - and to do that I'll once again use my own parents as prima facia examples. My Dad had a family down in Savannah, GA, and for reasons that are still not entirely clear, at some point he left them and came up North to find work, like many Black men did. It was the 1960s, and my Dad did indeed find work as a longshoreman up in Brooklyn, New York City. He was paid very well, getting himself a very nice apartment, and an all white Cadillac, which, for those of you old to remember, was the singature ride to have. Clearly, my Dad had everything to gain and nothing to loose - he was a single man, living it up, and could - and did - have access to just about any woman he wanted out in NYC, without having to marry any of them. Why then, did he give all that up just to get attached again? Especially to a woman who had an infant child? It was clear to see how my Dad got "hooked" - my Mom was a very good looking woman back in her day. A zaftig "Redbone" (that's old Black slang for a light-skinned Black woman) with a wide, beautiful smile, my Mom was all tits, thighs and ass - and on top of all that, she was a nurse, which meant she had to wear those white uniforms that always seem to be so form-fitting on the ladies. My Dad was in Philly visiting friends and saw my Mom crossing Broad St. one early Spring day in 1969 in that nurse's uniform - and damned near crashed his Coup De Ville. He pulled over, got her attention, and the rest, as they say, is history. It's quite possible that my Dad could have had his way with my Mom without having to marry her - at the very least, he could have had his way with as many other ladies. But he chose to marry her, again, with child - and went on to sire three more kids with the same woman. That does NOT sound like a fear of committment, or the need for mommying, Zam. In fact, that falls right in line with what we all know accross America - that most men WANT to have a family, WANT to have committment. I think that my Mom and Dad would have had a much better marriage than they did IF they had the proper counseling - and I don't mean the one or two sessions that pass for "pre-marital counseling" that some churches and the like do nowadays, but real, sensitive, ongoing counseling for my parents. It would have helped them better manage and bridge the age differences, the regional differences, and the sexual differences. It would have also helped my Dad heal from his own issues growing up, to understand and appreciate his sexual drive and needs so as not to become a slave to them, and to find better outlets for his awesome mathematical skills and talents other than compulsive gambling. But, given what they had to work with, and the times in which they lived, I think they did alright - all of their children are considered by most people who know any or all of them to be intelligent, caring human beings. For all of their problems, they had to have done something right. I agree wholeheartedly with Zam insofar as the "slipping" of values in our current times are concerned. As more people become more involved with "getting theirs" many of the things we all grew up have fallen by the wayside. Things that held our communities and families together. In the hood, one of the fixtures was "Big Momma", the eldest Black woman in the area. She was often the nosiest person on the block, looking into and after everyone's kids...and she was often the "go-to" person whom everyone came to to discuss important matters like marriage and relationship. For those of you who are White and into the New Age thing, you'll recognize the archetype as the "Crone" or Wise Woman. And you can find out more about "Big Momma" by checking out the film Soul Food. Big Momma was around long before there was an Oprah, or an Iyanla, or a Dr. Phil or Dr. Joyce Brothers...and my Mom's heart to heart, pre-marital talk with our family's "Big Momma", my great- grandmother, really helped my Mom I think. Unfortunately, not just in the Black community, but it seems in all communities in America, Big Momma seems to be a thing of the past. That's why it is my contention that we as astrologers, female and male alike, have to step in as "Big Momma". I have presented these and other topics of discussion because I feel they are vitally important for us to consider as astrologers. Since the Uranus-Pluto conjunction in the sign of Virgo in the 1960s (and the more recent Uranus-Neptune conjunction in Capricorn in the 1990s - note how in both cases, the planet Uranus was involved and the Signs involved were Feminine), norms and roles, accross the board, have dramatically changed. Without doubt, many things have improved - but many unintended consequences have occured as well. The current "Mismatch" thread is one such manifestation of those consequences. I belong to at least 20 different astrological forums and listservs. To date, NONE of them have grappled with these issues in the way and manner that this one, the Pan Astrological Forum does. Many forums, desgined and built as little more than fertile marketing fields, don't approach anything that doesn't fit into their own little backyards. The owners of those forums are far too busy hawking their latest books and trolling for new clients. And the other forums that exist, usually conduct arid discussions, of interest only to astrologers - and a small segment of them at that. I wanted to air these issues out and get all of us thinking hard about these things, because people come to us for advice and guidance, and I feel that we have to be on top of our game if we're ever going to be of any real and meaningful help to our clients. Whether you agree or disagree, my hope is that all of this has made you think. Salaam, Mu Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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