]: To be Guru or Not to be ?? to Sanjay

[Guest guest]

Dear Mukund,

Thankyou for your mail in regard to your intentions, before Sanjay's reply.

Strange, I did not really doubt your intentions, but was still moved so

strongly to respond. I look back at what I wrote, after your mail and again

after Sanjay's and can see the play of Rajas in my words too. We are all

seekers of truth and I am grateful for your posts as they help me see this.

It was interesting that when I read your previous post Mukund, all passion

dissolved and showed the true power of your humility in speech.

 

I often struggle with judgement. What I have observed is a tendency in

myself to refer the observations, even subtle ones to what is perceived as

truth ,

rather than being open to greater knowledge with a still mind and pure

heart.

Sanjay's direction :

" We should judge a Guru from the knowledge he has. That is what Vasistha

has taught. Imbibe their good values and their knowledge and ignore their

bad values and personal traits that comes from living as human

beings"..................is not so easy to do because of this.

It is the use of our own discrimination and the use of reasoned faith that

will allow us to "imbibe the good" and "ignore the personal traits and 'bad'

values.

One then looks at what Sanjay is saying when he says Knowledge?

Because it is true Knowledge, that which removes our ignorance, about our

larger Self, rather than information. The focus is on the action of

knowledge. These are just my thoughts on this, as Jyotish brings so much

knowledge, yet the best Gurus seem to have the most humility.Not that these

same Gurus do not " jump all over us" and our ego at times!! There seems to

be no ownership of the knowledge that is revealed and

all respect for the question and the questioner. As if there is knowledge in

us.

 

At the risk of starting another thread I ask :

Does it say in the scriptures somewhere that if we insist on using our

Buddhi to discriminate with reference to experience , perceptions and

ahankara ( ego) instead of God,

We get born a woman ?

Maybe , why this is such a deep tumultuous point for me!!

 

Kind regards and grateful thanks,

Rosemary

 

 

> -

> "monmuk111" <monmuk111

> <vedic astrology>

> Monday, June 28, 2004 6:31 AM

> Fw: [vedic astrology] Re: : To be Guru or Not to be ?? to Sanjay

>

>

> > Dear Sanjay:

> >

> > I've read your notes on Guru and these make a lot of sense. The board

> > has also received some fine notes from other members regarding "Guru."

> >

> > Sanjay, it's just been 3 years since I've began learning Jyotish as

> > well as Hindu philosophy, thus I often ask INFANTILE questions and my

> > intention is never to hurt or belittle anyone.

> >

> > Isn't my case amazing, just 3 years back I considered Jyothish some

> > mumbo-jumbo for the weak people/minds and thereafter life kicked my

> > butt so badly that I suddenly and mysteriously embarked upon the path

> > of understanding Jyotish, Karma, re-birth, the Hindu philosophy and

> > became a mantra chanting devotee of Ganesh and Durga Ma.

> >

> > It's to nice to hear from you. Hope you continue writing on this

> > board.

> >

> > Respectfully,

> > Mukund

> >

> > vedic astrology, "Sanjay Rath" <guruji@s...>

> > wrote:

> > >

> > > ::om namo bhagavate vasudevaya::

> > > Dear Mukund, Rosemary & Partha

> > >

> > > The intention of Mukund cannot be bad. He has an exalted Guru in

> > the dharma

> > > bhava. He helps to keep conscience clear by reminding all of us of

> > our

> > > duties once in a while. That is a good work. With time and age his

> > words

> > > maybe sweeter and softer but there is no doubt in my mind about his

> > > intentions.

> > >

> > > There are some who make strange and sometimes very bad remarks.

> > Such remarks

> > > caused from Rajas guna or passion shall never help anyone -neither

> > they

> > > themselves nor the person they are being told to. The same view if

> > > communicated with sweet words will find their mark.

> > >

> > > Mukund, in ancient India we had kings like Raja Rama by looking at

> > whose

> > > face the Brahmin can confidently renounce everything and

> > concentrate in his

> > > work. give me one name...just one name among the 100 billion people

> > of India

> > > whose face I can see and confidently give up my tours and

> > concentrate on

> > > translating BPHS, Saravali, Deva Keralam and other works or finish

> > my book

> > > on Atmakaraka. Yes your statements are right about flying first

> > class and

> > > living in Palaces. But that does not prevent them from being Gurus

> > either.

> > > Even Raja Janak the giver of the 'Hare Rama Krishna' mantra lived

> > in a

> > > palace and was a Rajarshi. He gave the mantra for Veda Vyasa's son.

> > Was Veda

> > > Vyasa wrong in advising his son to take mantra from Raja Janaka?

> > >

> > > No, we should not judge the calibre of a Guru from the material

> > goods he

> > > possesses. We should judge a Guru from the knowledge he has. That

> > is what

> > > Vasistha has taught. Imbibe their good values and their knowledge

> > and ignore

> > > their bad values and personal traits that comes from living as

> > human beings

> > > do.

> > >

> > > Just because I do not own even a car, what to talk of property and

> > house,

> > > does not qualify me to be a Guru. Knowledge alone qualifies me to

> > be a

> > > Jytosih Guru. Just because Narasimha has three cars and a few huge

> > houses

> > > does not disqualify him from being a guru. His knowledge qualifies

> > him to be

> > > a Jyotish Guru. So Mukund the parameters you use to identify a guru

> > are

> > > wrong and this will lead you to the wrong guru. Choose the

> > parameters

> > > correctly and you will reach your destination. Choose knowledge,

> > Satva guna

> > > predominance in behavior and dharma to be the criteria for a Diksha

> > Guru;

> > > choose knowledge as the most important criteria for siksha gurus.

> > remember

> > > these four mantra that define the guru -

> > > OM gurave namah (obeisances to the teacher/remover of darkness)

> > > OM parama gurave namah

> > > OM paratpara gurave namah, and

> > > OM paramesthi gurave namah (that is for Shiva, and all knowledge)

> > >

> > > With best regards,

> > > Sanjay Rath

> > > SJC Puri, 212 Gopal Ballav Road, Puri 752001, India

> > > Tel: +91.6752.226269 http://srath.com

> > >

> > > -

> > > monmuk111

> > > vedic astrology

> > > Thursday, June 24, 2004 9:27 PM

> > > [vedic astrology] Re: : To be Guru or Not to be ?? to

> > Rosemary ,

> > > Partha, Venkat

> > >

> > >

> > > Hello Rosemary and Partha:

> > >

> > > First and foremost,if I offended anyone with my "Guru" questions, I

> > > apologize.

> > >

> > > My intent wasn't malicious. My intent was to understand how can

> > > people flying first class, riding rolls-royce and living in palatial

> > > homes claim to be Gurus?

> > >

> > > Partha has Indian roots so he knows about the lifestyle of the REAL

> > > Gurus, but Rosemary, if you're not well-versed about life in India,

> > > I'd like to tell you that REAL Brahmins and Gurus in India live off

> > > donations received from patrons and the life style is simple and

> > > somtimes really poor.

> > >

> > > Rosemary, even in ancient India, the Gurus lived off whatever

> > > donations the Kings made to them and Venkat has already named a few-

> > -

> > > Vishwamitra, Drona, etc. In fact, Drona fought on the side of

> > > Kauravas during the Mahabharat war because he was living off

> > donation

> > > from King Duryodhan.

> > >

> > > So, the question I had posed was that if some who is profiteering

> > > from the sacred Vedic knowledge and isn't living like a Hermit on

> > > donation, can this person call himself a Guru?

> > >

> > > I feel I had asked a valid question, but it appears that my

> > questions

> > > have riled up somuch negative emotions that we should end this

> > debate

> > > as Partha has suggested.

> > >

> > > Respectfully,

> > > Mukund

> > >

> > > vedic astrology, "R Innes-Jones" <rf.innes-

> > > jones@x> wrote:

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > > Dear Monmuk111,

> > > > > Why and where are you coming from to paint such a rascist then

> > > sexist ,

> > > > separatist

> > > > > picture? Why are you drawing lines and circles about Brahmins

> > and

> > > Gurus

> > > > and

> > > > > separating yourself from truth.

> > > > > Where is the advaita here? It is all one.

> > > > > You are as much a part of me and I you. This play of creation

> > > with its

> > > > > actors is not who we really are. Why the preference and claim to

> > > one part

> > > > or

> > > > > another?

> > > > >

> > > > > Ask yourself, in the pureness of your heart, is their any

> > > difference

> > > > between

> > > > > yourself, the 'false' guru and the 'true'

> > > > guru.............................

> > > > >

> > > > > Kind regards

> > > > > Rosemary

> > > > >

> > > > > -

> > > > > "monmuk111" <monmuk111>

> > > > > <vedic astrology>

> > > > > Thursday, June 24, 2004 9:31 AM

> > > > > [vedic astrology] Re: Fwd: >Venkatarama--to Venkat and

> > > Aman

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > Hello Aman:

> > > > >

> > > > > You have NICELY reflected the SAME sentiments I feel. I've done

> > > is in

> > > > > an abrasive way.

> > > > >

> > > > > The issues are:

> > > > >

> > > > > 1) Who can be a Guru?

> > > > > 2) And, can someone who IS NOT living a Brahminical life of

> > > living on

> > > > > donations and of not profiteering from Vedic knowledge become a

> > > Guru?

> > > > > 3) In India, practicing Brahmins live an extremely Brahminic

> > > > > lifestyle ever since they're kids, i.e. began learning rituals

> > > from

> > > > > their father and grandfather in childhood, then go to Benaras

> > and

> > > > > study Vedas and Vedic rituals for many, many years AND FINALLY

> > > become

> > > > > a PUNDIT/GURU/BRAHMIN who performs various rituals, rites

> > > including

> > > > > giving out mantras. Now, can a person who hasn't BEEN thorough

> > > this

> > > > > process become a GURU and give out Mantras?

> > > > >

> > > > > Venkat has made a nice attempt to answer these, but is sitting

> > on

> > > the

> > > > > fence on some important issue of whether someone who isn't born

> > a

> > > > > Brahmin and doesn't live a Brahminic lifestyle become a Guru and

> > > > > perform rites, rituals and give out Mantras.

> > > > >

> > > > > Let's see what other members have to say. I'm hoping I'm not

> > > BOOTED

> > > > > from this group for asking such questions.

> > > > >

> > > > > Mukund

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > ....... May Jupiter's light shine on us .......

> >

> >

> > Links

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

::om namo bhagavate vasudevaya::

Dear Rosemary,

No question can ever be bad if the intention for asking is honest. So your

questions are valid and good and to some extent are answered below.

-

"R Innes-Jones" <rf.innes-jones

<vedic astrology>

Monday, June 28, 2004 11:31 AM

[vedic astrology] ]Re: : To be Guru or Not to be ?? to Sanjay

 

Dear Mukund,

Thankyou for your mail in regard to your intentions, before Sanjay's reply.

Strange, I did not really doubt your intentions, but was still moved so

strongly to respond. I look back at what I wrote, after your mail and again

after Sanjay's and can see the play of Rajas in my words too. We are all

seekers of truth and I am grateful for your posts as they help me see this.

It was interesting that when I read your previous post Mukund, all passion

dissolved and showed the true power of your humility in speech.

 

I often struggle with judgement. What I have observed is a tendency in

myself to refer the observations, even subtle ones to what is perceived as

truth ,

rather than being open to greater knowledge with a still mind and pure

heart.

 

Rath: You are a pure heart Rosemary, how else could you have seen the purity

in Mukund's mail. The point is when one is in a cold quiet room and the

'sound' that carries the akasa tattva is not heart when we read the mail, we

often tend to read the words as dead letters. This is true for all of us. I

have found a nice way out of taking time off before replying to any mail

i.e. I give myself a few days sometimes. Your reaction was due to your

fondness for your guru(s) and that you have a deep faith in the teachings of

the seers. Your defence of the guru shows that someday in your life Jupiter

will also defend you. That is how karma works in the subtle plane.

everything we do or say comes back to us - as if we are talking to ourselves

first and then to someone else. Do ponder over this. I have found that when

one does such things then the houses ruled bythe planet become very

beneficial.

---------

 

Sanjay's direction :

" We should judge a Guru from the knowledge he has. That is what Vasistha

has taught. Imbibe their good values and their knowledge and ignore their

bad values and personal traits that comes from living as human

beings"..................is not so easy to do because of this.

It is the use of our own discrimination and the use of reasoned faith that

will allow us to "imbibe the good" and "ignore the personal traits and 'bad'

values.

One then looks at what Sanjay is saying when he says Knowledge?

Because it is true Knowledge, that which removes our ignorance, about our

larger Self, rather than information. The focus is on the action of

knowledge. These are just my thoughts on this, as Jyotish brings so much

knowledge, yet the best Gurus seem to have the most humility.Not that these

same Gurus do not " jump all over us" and our ego at times!! There seems to

be no ownership of the knowledge that is revealed and

all respect for the question and the questioner. As if there is knowledge in

us.

 

Rath: There are four levels to what you say and at the level of the Siksha

guru it is total 'reasoned faith'. Don't eat anything without having tasted

it several times. At the next level of Diksha guru the faith is more as

reasoning has to be foresaken initially for learning the virtuous path. At

the next higher level of Parama Guru it is almost blind faith but still some

reasoning. Obedience is called for atthis level. At the final level of the

Paramesthi guru or Shiva, it is only BLIND faith...reasoning is uncalled

for.

Forgive me for any pushing that i may have done but it is with the sole

desire and pure intention that you have the ability and can master this

subject.

-----

At the risk of starting another thread I ask :

Does it say in the scriptures somewhere that if we insist on using our

Buddhi to discriminate with reference to experience , perceptions and

ahankara ( ego) instead of God,

We get born a woman ?

Maybe , why this is such a deep tumultuous point for me!!

 

Rath: Interpretation of the scriptures is a matter of kula (family

background) in India and my version can be very different from that of the

Sankaracharya as well due to the strong influence of the Jagannath temple.

For me, a woman is like either mata Vimala the mother of the Lord, Lakshmi

His spouse or Sarasvati His teacher or a devadasi. All three of these women

(excepting devadasi) are qualified to wear the sacred thread and learn the

vedas. The devadasi are even more qualified for respect as they alone

understand the sookshma bhava of the lord.

 

To say that if one does so-and-so sin and is born as a woman implies that

the womanhood itself is a derogatory existance. Like saying if one has

indiscriminate sexy they are reborn as a dog or excessive eating then

rebirth is as a pig...simplistic theories indeed but then with a statement

like the one you have stated, it means that the woman is equated to one of

these lesser creatures. This is wrong and an insult to our own mothers, to

all womanhood and can never be accepted by people like me.

 

Buddhi is meant for discrimination, for reasoning, for logical thinking. In

the ramayana, Sri Ram explains that the simple person cannot think too much

and hence his buddhi cannot lead him astray or away from dharma whereas the

intelligent man or gyani can stray from dharma when his buddhi lacks the

proper direction for viveka and is clouded by ahankara. This was the problem

with Ravana the brilliant one. So buddhi MUST be used to discriminate, to

reason and to understand. The extent for using ones buddhi or obeying

blindly will depend on WHO is saying what he or she is saying. this is where

the four levels come in.

 

Even if he is your diksha guru do not become blind else when he/she falls

you too can fall. Let your buddhi prevail and have blind faith only on

God..that is the essence of the teachings of the four mantras that define

the guru. In Mahabharata Bhishma fought a duel with his guru. So do fight

but never ever forget the debt else Shiva will deny the knowledge in the

next birth OR the knowledge will fail at the crucial hour (Karna case).

-----------------------

 

Kind regards and grateful thanks,

Rosemary

 

My pleasure...

With best regards,

Sanjay Rath

SJC Puri, 212 Gopal Ballav Road, Puri 752001, India

Tel: +91.6752.226269 http://srath.com