Is Astrology Science?.. Yes? No? Not so simple!!

August 31, 2004

Dear Sundeep and others

I hope most of us know the following saying

We KNOW what we KNOW

We KNOW what we DON'T KNOW

but we DON'T KNOW what we DON'T KNOW

Sundeep you have very brilliantly justified and explained the

position of Astrology. I don't think I have even an iota of doubt

about the validity of Astrology as a Science.

I refer to the above saying and feel that the general attitude of all

the learned scholars in any field is that they assume that they have

to work with the tools and the information they have. Most of the

people put their energies into learning and interpreting the theories

and principles laid out to them. If they fail they think its their

own fault or their lack of understanding that could not come up with

a correct answer. But they never doubt the authenticity or the

perspective of the rules laid down by the predecessors.

Take K. P. system for example. Till such time that Mr. Krishnamurty

came out with the sub explaination and the giving necessary

importance to the asterisms and futher diving them according to the

proportion of their dasas everyone was defending Astrology whereas

there was something missing which was made available by Mr.

Krishnamurty.

Hence my attempt here is to bring to the notice of all the learned

scholars of Astrology and start a serious attempt in the direction of

finding out new facts to fill the gaps in the old knowledge.

I could also give the example of Chemistry as science. When chemistry

was being practised initially everyone thought it was magic and the

chemist has some kind of magical potency as the chemical reactions

were also not materialistic and not easily understandable. But then

when things were put in more scientific form we do get consistent

results majority of the time. We do explain to our children what air

is and how it can be weighed, and how its volume can be measured etc

though it seemed imposible not too distant in past. We are able to

detect, analyse, identify gases which are colorless and odorless.

So until we organize this knowledge in a more scientific form and

come out with means of compiling, recording, verifying in a more

scientific form we will not be able to raise the status of Astrology

to level which it deserves.

We should not be scared of going into the realm of UNKNOWN. We should

venture out there and try and find out how much is there which we are

not even aware that it exists. Unfortunately most experts find it

personally offending if someone has to challenge or argue the

validity of a rule, yoga, or sutra in the text. But this is the only

way one can find the truth.

As always look forward to your expert comments and observations.

Uday

September 2, 2004

Let me give few more examples.

Suppose we have digits 1, 2, 3, 4, 6, 7, 8, and 9 with their usual meanings.

With the missing digits 5 and Zero can we make sense of maths as we do now?

There was a time in past when Zero was not invented but still every one was

convinced at that point in time that everything was alright with the subject

and only thing to be done was have more understanding. But when Zero was

discovered everything fell in proper place.

Take another example. There are two mathematician. One is following the decimal

system and other one is following the binary. But at some point in calculations

they exchange the info without understanding the underlying principles and try

and work the problem from there. Number 11 in binary would be equal to 3 but he

takes it to be 11 in the decimal and end up accidently getting one correct

answer. But he blames himself for getting it wrong for the most of time. Do you

think it will work? Well the obvious answer is NO it is not going to work.

Now to the question on what needs to be done.

We should form an organisation (Preferably Non Profit and in USA) which should

be absolutely impartial and should have the obligation of compiling and

verifying the basic principles, rules, yogas, sutras to the current knowledge

in other branches of science available to us. The organization should be also

responsible of setting standards and compiling various resources such as list

of birth datas and the important events in the life of various people which

should be made available for research purposes.

The learned Astrologers should work on the BASICS and come up with issues that

are unexplainable as of now and come up with answers to those questions. We

should be open minded to the weirdest ideas and should jot it down and add to

the Compilation for reference of our future generation.

The basics should be checked and explained in terms of the knowledge we have

gained in other branches of science. Also development of equipments, to verify

certain datas used in calculations.

No rule, etc should be accepted with out the actual verification and standard be

set that atleast a certain percentage results are obtained that rule may not be

considered valid.

Other factors / forces be studied which might be one of the factors in Astrology

(e.g. Magnetism, electrical infulences, gravity,etc)

Today people have held astrology in their own hands for the satisfaction of

their own egos and gaining self importance instead of imparting the knowledge,

creating atmosphere conducive for research and making it popular so that it

leads the way for the upliftment of the science. We need people who can put

their personal agenda a\side and work for the upliftman of this science and

ofcourse it will be the obligation of this science to make the livlihood

available for the dedicated persons.

There should be voluntary system adopted by all the astrologers of associating

oneself with the organiztion so that a guy with a book on basics of astrology

should not compete with the astrologer who has worked for several years in the

field.

These suggestions are just the basics on the begining of scientification of Astrology.

Udaysudhir bhusari <sudhir203bhusari > wrote:

Dear uday,i totally agree with you.astrology if used for and by scientific

methods willatleast prove the truth about it.but it is very difficult to acheve

the same .please tell me about the methods to do so.thanks--- udayg222 wrote:>

Dear Sundeep and others> > > I hope most of us know the following saying> > We

KNOW what we KNOW> We KNOW what we DON'T KNOW> but we DON'T KNOW what we DON'T

KNOW> > Sundeep you have very brilliantly justified and> explained the >

position of Astrology. I don't think I have even an> iota of doubt > about the

validity of Astrology as a Science.> > I refer to the above saying and feel

that the> general attitude of all > the learned scholars in any field is that

they> assume

that they have > to work with the tools and the information they> have. Most of

the > people put their energies into learning and> interpreting the theories >

and principles laid out to them. If they fail they> think its their > own fault

or their lack of understanding that could> not come up with > a correct answer.

But they never doubt the> authenticity or the > perspective of the rules laid

down by the> predecessors.> > Take K. P. system for example. Till such time

that> Mr. Krishnamurty > came out with the sub explaination and the giving>

necessary > importance to the asterisms and futher diving them> according to

the > proportion of their dasas everyone was defending> Astrology whereas >

there was something missing which was made available> by Mr. > Krishnamurty.> >

Hence my attempt here is to bring

to the notice of> all the learned > scholars of Astrology and start a serious

attempt in> the direction of > finding out new facts to fill the gaps in the

old> knowledge.> > I could also give the example of Chemistry as> science. When

chemistry > was being practised initially everyone thought it> was magic and the

> chemist has some kind of magical potency as the> chemical reactions > were

also not materialistic and not easily> understandable. But then > when things

were put in more scientific form we do> get consistent > results majority of

the time. We do explain to our> children what air > is and how it can be

weighed, and how its volume can> be measured etc > though it seemed imposible

not too distant in past.> We are able to > detect, analyse, identify gases

which are colorless> and odorless.> > So

until we organize this knowledge in a more> scientific form and > come out with

means of compiling, recording,> verifying in a more > scientific form we will

not be able to raise the> status of Astrology > to level which it deserves.> >

We should not be scared of going into the realm of> UNKNOWN. We should >

venture out there and try and find out how much is> there which we are > not

even aware that it exists. Unfortunately most> experts find it > personally

offending if someone has to challenge or> argue the > validity of a rule, yoga,

or sutra in the text. But> this is the only > way one can find the truth.> > As

always look forward to your expert comments and> observations.> > Uday> >

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September 3, 2004

Dear Uday and others ,

Astrology is a science in the sense it is a body of systematic knowledge .

Whether that knowledge is complete and perfect is perhaps debatable .

Stastistics is not directly applicable to astrology for a very simple reason .

The planetary positions repeat themselves only once in 27000 years . So

theoretically speaking , the sample size itself is much larger than the

population size . Thus normal distribution theory cannot be as a whole applied

to astrology .

We can experiment with small set of probabilities . Like Gaukelin did . He

studied the connection of Mars with sports for over 30 years and published a

couple of books on his research . The reason his research cannot be accepted by

the so called scientific community is that no outside causal reasoning can be

attributed to it .

Also something is complete or incomplete does not make it science or otherwise .

For example the theory of light is still evolving and getting better and better

.. Till we do not find something better we use what we have .

Regards ,

Anand

-

uday g

sudhir bhusari

Cc: vedic astrology

Friday, September 03, 2004 3:27 AM

Re: [vedic astrology] Re: Is Astrology Science?.. Yes? No? Not so simple!!

Sudhir and others,

Let me give few more examples.

Suppose we have digits 1, 2, 3, 4, 6, 7, 8, and 9 with their usual meanings.

With the missing digits 5 and Zero can we make sense of maths as we do now?

There was a time in past when Zero was not invented but still every one was

convinced at that point in time that everything was alright with the subject

and only thing to be done was have more understanding. But when Zero was

discovered everything fell in proper place.

Take another example. There are two mathematician. One is following the decimal

system and other one is following the binary. But at some point in calculations

they exchange the info without understanding the underlying principles and try

and work the problem from there. Number 11 in binary would be equal to 3 but he

takes it to be 11 in the decimal and end up accidently getting one correct

answer. But he blames himself for getting it wrong for the most of time. Do you

think it will work? Well the obvious answer is NO it is not going to work.

Now to the question on what needs to be done.

We should form an organisation (Preferably Non Profit and in USA) which should

be absolutely impartial and should have the obligation of compiling and

verifying the basic principles, rules, yogas, sutras to the current knowledge

in other branches of science available to us. The organization should be also

responsible of setting standards and compiling various resources such as list

of birth datas and the important events in the life of various people which

should be made available for research purposes.

The learned Astrologers should work on the BASICS and come up with issues that

are unexplainable as of now and come up with answers to those questions. We

should be open minded to the weirdest ideas and should jot it down and add to

the Compilation for reference of our future generation.

The basics should be checked and explained in terms of the knowledge we have

gained in other branches of science. Also development of equipments, to verify

certain datas used in calculations.

No rule, etc should be accepted with out the actual verification and standard be

set that atleast a certain percentage results are obtained that rule may not be

considered valid.

Other factors / forces be studied which might be one of the factors in Astrology

(e.g. Magnetism, electrical infulences, gravity,etc)

Today people have held astrology in their own hands for the satisfaction of

their own egos and gaining self importance instead of imparting the knowledge,

creating atmosphere conducive for research and making it popular so that it

leads the way for the upliftment of the science. We need people who can put

their personal agenda a\side and work for the upliftman of this science and

ofcourse it will be the obligation of this science to make the livlihood

available for the dedicated persons.

There should be voluntary system adopted by all the astrologers of associating

oneself with the organiztion so that a guy with a book on basics of astrology

should not compete with the astrologer who has worked for several years in the

field.

These suggestions are just the basics on the begining of scientification of Astrology.

Udaysudhir bhusari <sudhir203bhusari > wrote:

Dear uday,i totally agree with you.astrology if used for and by scientific

methods willatleast prove the truth about it.but it is very difficult to acheve

the same .please tell me about the methods to do so.thanks--- udayg222 wrote:>

Dear Sundeep and others> > > I hope most of us know the following saying> > We

KNOW what we KNOW> We KNOW what we DON'T KNOW> but we DON'T KNOW what we DON'T

KNOW> > Sundeep you have very brilliantly justified and> explained the >

position of Astrology. I don't think I have even an> iota of doubt

September 3, 2004

When somebody says its not possible that IS what I am challenging. We are not

talking about those phenomenons in Astrology that are happening once every

27000 years. What we consider are the nine planets their relative positions to

each other and the effect of the planets on the Native. The movements of these

planets are quite rapid compared to a length of a human life along with the

basics given in our texts to guide us in the direction of research. I am not

implying that Astrology be studied in terms of statistics or any known

methodology of science that we know as of now. There is/are factors/phenomenon

which are unkown. If things are done systematically we will eventually discover

those factors/phenomenon.

In theory the movements of all the cosmic bodies is cyclic and therefore based

on the time of ENTRY of the native in this world at the a particular

combination/s of the cosmic bodies would affect his/her present life and since

the movements of the cosmic bodies is predictable theoretically we should be

able to predict the future of the Native. This is the also basis of the Horary

Astrology.

It is not the subject that is holding us back but our mentality that it cannot

be done. There are several things that we do routinely today which were

considered impossible not far long ago. What would have happened if they would

have thought that it was impossible and certain things cannot be done?

If you say that people are still working on the theory of light that is the

spirit we should have in the field of Astrology. In strict terms no science is

complete hence we have research. People come out with new discoveries new

techniques over a procedure/method thats been done for centuries. If you pick

up a text book of medicine you will read that the cause of most of the diseases

are unkown (Yes even today they are unkown). But does that stop them from

finding a way to diagnose or finding a way to relieve the patient from the

discomfort if not cure? Had they not treated Medicine the way they treat now

everyone would still be thinking like that quack in the village who thought

that indigestion is caused by weak intestines and can be improved by replacing

it by goat's intestines.

Look haven't so many people made softwares to do all the calculations in

Astrology which were considered impossible a few years ago?

It just needs one right thinking, dedicated, selfless, gifted person to initiate the revolution.

Uday

p.s. A comment regarding Gaukelin Study. I have observed that we see different

studies on the same subject every day with every body coming up with different

results. If one study proves inconclusive does it mean that its not worth

trying a second time? There are several variables when you conduct a study any

one could be wrong. The study that has considered all the variables correctly

yields right results in any set of cirumstances and outlives all other

studies.Anand <shivaji (AT) cwazy (DOT) co.uk> wrote:

Dear Uday and others ,

Astrology is a science in the sense it is a body of systematic knowledge .

Whether that knowledge is complete and perfect is perhaps debatable .

Stastistics is not directly applicable to astrology for a very simple reason .

The planetary positions repeat themselves only once in 27000 years . So

theoretically speaking , the sample size itself is much larger than the

population size . Thus normal distribution theory cannot be as a whole applied

to astrology .

We can experiment with small set of probabilities . Like Gaukelin did . He

studied the connection of Mars with sports for over 30 years and published a

couple of books on his research . The reason his research cannot be accepted by

the so called scientific community is that no outside causal reasoning can be

attributed to it .

Also something is complete or incomplete does not make it science or otherwise .

For example the theory of light is still evolving and getting better and better

.. Till we do not find something better we use what we have .

Regards ,

Anand

-

uday g

sudhir bhusari

Cc: vedic astrology

Friday, September 03, 2004 3:27 AM

Re: [vedic astrology] Re: Is Astrology Science?.. Yes? No? Not so simple!!

Sudhir and others,

Let me give few more examples.

Suppose we have digits 1, 2, 3, 4, 6, 7, 8, and 9 with their usual meanings.

With the missing digits 5 and Zero can we make sense of maths as we do now?

There was a time in past when Zero was not invented but still every one was

convinced at that point in time that everything was alright with the subject

and only thing to be done was have more understanding. But when Zero was

discovered everything fell in proper place.

Take another example. There are two mathematician. One is following the decimal

system and other one is following the binary. But at some point in calculations

they exchange the info without understanding the underlying principles and try

and work the problem from there. Number 11 in binary would be equal to 3 but he

takes it to be 11 in the decimal and end up accidently getting one correct

answer. But he blames himself for getting it wrong for the most of time. Do you

think it will work? Well the obvious answer is NO it is not going to work.

Now to the question on what needs to be done.

We should form an organisation (Preferably Non Profit and in USA) which should

be absolutely impartial and should have the obligation of compiling and

verifying the basic principles, rules, yogas, sutras to the current knowledge

in other branches of science available to us. The organization should be also

responsible of setting standards and compiling various resources such as list

of birth datas and the important events in the life of various people which

should be made available for research purposes.

The learned Astrologers should work on the BASICS and come up with issues that

are unexplainable as of now and come up with answers to those questions. We

should be open minded to the weirdest ideas and should jot it down and add to

the Compilation for reference of our future generation.

The basics should be checked and explained in terms of the knowledge we have

gained in other branches of science. Also development of equipments, to verify

certain datas used in calculations.

No rule, etc should be accepted with out the actual verification and standard be

set that atleast a certain percentage results are obtained that rule may not be

considered valid.

Other factors / forces be studied which might be one of the factors in Astrology

(e.g. Magnetism, electrical infulences, gravity,etc)

Today people have held astrology in their own hands for the satisfaction of

their own egos and gaining self importance instead of imparting the knowledge,

creating atmosphere conducive for research and making it popular so that it

leads the way for the upliftment of the science. We need people who can put

their personal agenda a\side and work for the upliftman of this science and

ofcourse it will be the obligation of this science to make the livlihood

available for the dedicated persons.

There should be voluntary system adopted by all the astrologers of associating

oneself with the organiztion so that a guy with a book on basics of astrology

should not compete with the astrologer who has worked for several years in the

field.

These suggestions are just the basics on the begining of scientification of Astrology.

Udaysudhir bhusari <sudhir203bhusari > wrote:

Dear uday,i totally agree with you.astrology if used for and by scientific

methods willatleast prove the truth about it.but it is very difficult to acheve

the same .please tell me about the methods to do so.thanks--- udayg222 wrote:>

Dear Sundeep and others> > > I hope most of us know the following saying> > We

KNOW what we KNOW> We KNOW what we DON'T KNOW> but we DON'T KNOW what we DON'T

KNOW> > Sundeep you have very brilliantly justified and> explained the >

position of Astrology. I don't think I have even an> iota of doubt Archives:

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September 4, 2004

I will first say that this is THE right forum to have this conversation.

I hope all the experts will agree with me.

The fact is there are lots of pearls here in this forum hidden inside the shell

of ego. If we break that shell then the pearls will be there for everyone's

benefit. The beautiful thing is that the beauty and appreciation increases as

it passes on due to the fact that everyone has a chance to compare and in the

process the BEST is adored and appreciated. As of now everyone is thinking that

whatever he/she has is the best and should be used only to serve his/her own

ego.

I believe it does not do any good if one blows his/her's own trumpet. Deliver

results and it will be proven automatically. Remember the Rishis and actual

gurus in past never argued or proved that they were gurus or rishis. They

showed their expertise and the other person had no choice but to accept him as

a guru.

I personally believe that every person should have ego. It is a good thing. It

helps us guide in the right direction just as the sense of touch provided by

Nature to protect our own body. But too much of a good thing is also bad. Just

as we cannot be overly sensitive to touch and/or environment so also we cannot

do any good to ourselves or the subject that we are dedicating ourselves just

because of the ego. The success will depend on how one harnesses his / her own

ego for the benefit that he /she is looking for.

Also it is my personal experience and also many of you may have also noticed

that Nature to a great extent decides what you have to do or may not do. It

will not give you options that you are not allowed to do. No matter how hard

you try.

I feel this subject becomes a little more complex because there is a component

of pyschology involved. Just like in medicine where people are given placebos

so also in Astrology people who approach an astrologer is 90% prepared mentally

to accept whatever is dished out to him/her. And you know that placebos also

work. Do you know that it is a fact that physical diseases can manifest due to

psycological factors? There are many instances where placebos have cured many

so called incurable diseases. In fact those were not the diseases to begin

with. They were just issues involviing psycological factors. The moment those

factors were taken care of the diseases vanished.

I have never claimed myself as a learned or expert on this subject. In fact I

joined this group to get guidance from the learned members of this group.

Fortunately / unfortunately I am in New York or else I would be more than happy

to meet you in person.

With regards to each and every one.

Uday

vedic astrology "nameisego" <nameisego >

Sat, 04 Sep 2004 11:59:09 -0000 [vedic astrology] Re: ASTROLOGY

AND MODERN SCIENCE....The Final Proof . Do we need more??

Dear Uday,You do not seem to have read complete works by self on astrology

mostly concerning Rahu where further work has been done on science perspective.

Latest in that series is Varnamala and origin of Ragas as per Rasi placement in

kalachakra.This posting was done by self in this group recently. Further

posting will be made soon.

Tatvam-Asi

-----------------To:

vedic astrology "tanvi tani" <tanvitani (AT) (DOT) co.in> Add

to Address Book Sat, 4 Sep 2004 12:11:56 +0100 (BST) Re:

[vedic astrology] ASTROLOGY AND MODERN SCIENCE....The Final Proof . Do we need

more??

Mr Uday,There is lot of word req. to be done in astrology. people read

chemistry , maths,and physics and then came to the conlusion that they are all

sciences. without reading the subject and going deep into it we should not say

these things. without seeing and knowing a person , who is siting thousands

miles away , an astrologer predicts about him. and he pradicts right. what

will you say about it ? do noy say it can be coincidence, because coincidences

do not keep

happening.tanvi-----------------Anand

<aadarsh (AT) eth (DOT) net> wrote:

Dear Uday ,

Very well written . Go ahead . If you are in Mumbai , we can meet and discuss

and take up some tasks .

Having said that , the point about Gaukelin studies was not that it was

inconclusive . The study conclusively proved that Mars is connected with sports

.. BUT nobody from the scientific community would buy that argument. *Because *

for statistic to work we need causal reasoning from outside . Similar is the

case with Goldbach theorem. It has never been proven to be wrong , but that

does not mean it has been proven to be right.

I feel here we are going away from the core of the mailing list . If you want to

discuss it further , let us do it offline.

Regards ,

Anand

-

uday g

vedic astrology

Cc: Anand

Saturday, September 04, 2004 7:57 AM

Re: [vedic astrology] Re: Is Astrology Science?.. Yes? No? Not so simple!!

Anand and others,