Karma vs. Spiritual Practice - Free Will - Bhagavat Gita

[Guest guest]

Dear Sabri, Ivar, all,

 

Everyone is so sure that they *know* what free will is. Anyone care

to define "free will"? First you have to define free will and then

only can you discuss whether it exists or not. In careful thought, I

have discovered free will isnt so easy to recognize. Most people

simply call free will the ability to follow the desire that is

topmost in their head. If you get to marry the man or woman you like,

or get the chance to earn a degree in the profession you like, or get

to eat the food you like, or get to buy the house you like, or get to

converse with the people you like, or live in the country you like,

or get to follow any of a thousand other desires, you are convinced

you have free will. If you don't, then you complain that you don't

have free will. To me, we first have see - "Is the desire free

*itself*?" I hardly find a single desire that arises freely. Every

desire arises as a consequence of something else.

 

You want to marry a man or woman you like because of physical

attraction which again happens due to your biological and mental

makeup. It isnt a choice, simply a consequence of your physical and

mental makeup. Similarly with all other desires. My suspicion is

that "free will" as mentioned in the sacred texts, DOES NOT even

refer to the "choices" of the mind. They are all bound and part of a

chain, it doesnt matter which one you get to follow. Once the mind

follows a desire, it is ALREADY BOUND, not free! Free will, I think,

is to do only with choosing to NOT jump headlong into following a

desire. The only choice that is offered to us in life is that at all

times, you have the ability to not get carried away by desire. If you

exercise that choice, you have exercised free will. If you dont, you

havent. Bill Gates isnt exercising free will, he is simply succumbing

to one or more of the desires that present themselves in his mind.

Witness the following statements:

1) In the Bhagavad Gita, I interpret the following statement as

hinting at the above idea (though not directly) - lust is essentially

desire:

"The Blessed Lord said: It is lust only, Arjuna, which is born of

contact with the material modes of passion and later transformed into

wrath, and which is the all-devouring, sinful enemy of this world"

 

2) Jiddu Krishnamurti - one of the few people that have ever lived

whose life was moksha in itself:

"Freedom is not a reaction; freedom is not a choice. It is man's

pretense that because he has choice he is free. Freedom is pure

observation without direction, without fear of punishment and reward.

Freedom is without motive; freedom is not at the end of the evolution

of man but lies in the first step of his existence. In observation

one begins to discover the lack of freedom. Freedom is found in the

choiceless awareness of our daily existence and activity"

 

 

It is only after we realize what free will is that it makes sense to

discover it in astrological charts. Even if someone tells that x and

y houses are those of free will - what is the free will that they

show?

 

Sundeep

[Guest guest]

> Everyone is so sure that they *know* what free will is.

 

Not me. I simply talked about astrology. What Bhagavad-gita says

applies to life, not about astrology. I hope you understand what I

mean.

 

I'm well aware of the Bhagavad-gita. I read commentaries on it more

than 50 times, its translation at least 100 times, and the Sanskrit

more than 500, during the last 11 years. It's a wonderful text.

 

But it doesn't deny my views on astrology.

 

Ivar

[Guest guest]

Dear Sundeep

I do not have that much indepth knowledge on Gita..

But would like to state the following:

Desire is an inborn quality with every one which

motivates one to aspire and achieve something which

may be both materialistic or spiritualistic. It is

more of what one's mind wants. whether he gets it or

not depends on various factors. When a baby is born it

does not have any desires as its basic needs are food

and sleep. while it grows, the mind also develops as

are the desires. Along with the mind it also develops

intelligence which decides guides on throgh decision

making process. It is here that one tries to exercise

his free will.. For example, take Sri Ram/Bharath. Ram

was s the crown prince and could have avoided going to

exile where as Bharath inherited the thrown but

sacrificed it. simillarly most of us know that we do

live in a world of maya and nothing is permenant.

Still we do not stop pursuing them.

 

Desire is the result of Mana (Mo) where as Free will

is purely dependant on Intelligence (Ju). If jupiter

is badly afflicted then it forces one to make bad

decisions. one can have desires which he may achieve

or may not have any desires and become a sanyasi.

Simillarly one can succumb to the desires and commit

shameful acts or Control his desires. It is based on

his free will that he wilol act upon.

Astrologically speaking Desires are the cause of

re-birth and the Karma one does/Dharma one follows are

results of one's Free will which contributes to ones

good /bad karma from past/future lives..

 

Lakshman

 

 

 

 

 

Meet the all-new My - Try it today!

 

[Guest guest]

Dear Sundeep, Namaste,

 

Some thoughts;

You are perfectly right in pointing out to the need to define the

meaning of "terms" in such a (philosophical) matter, indeed language

and logic are the tools of philosophy and they should be used

correctly or one is lost.

 

"Free Will" in this context, my personal thinking, is about who is

giving the decision to act in a certain way. Is it "me" who decides

to go this way and face a certain consequence, or the effect of past

karma that puts this thought in my mind, and I go that way and face

that same consequence. Since karma is coming back to us, it appears

that at least some of our thoughts should be predetermined, e.g. we

think we are giving the decision, but in fact these thoughts we are

having are already determined. OR it is arranged so that, when we

are to face a consequence, whatever the decision we take, life is

arranged so that we end up facing the same or similar consequence.

The matter is actually quite complicated, as is said in the

Gita; "Unfathomable is the course of action", e.g. we never know the

intricate details of how nature works, e.g. life unfolds before us.

Whether someghing specific is due to karma or our own decision, or

if karma, because of which previous deed etc.

 

As man evolves further and further, he gains more of free-will, e.g.

to make decisions on his own, not based on previous karmic effects,

is another thought.

 

But it is always good to ponder and discuss over these issues. I

myself very surprisingly found some new things, while looking at

Bhagavat Gita, to post some excerpts.

 

One further thought, as one evolves further and further same

realities, or same pieces of knowledge gain newer meanings and

dimensions. So we can never say this is exactly like that, some time

later, we can turn back and look at the same matter, and discover

some new dimensions, realities or truths, that were not apparent or

there before. This is simply because with evolution comes wider and

better faculty of understanding of the same old reality. One saying

goes; "There is nothing new under the sun" but we only see part of

it.

 

Best wishes, Sabri.

 

 

vedic astrology, "vedicastrostudent"

<vedicastrostudent> wrote:

>

> Dear Sabri, Ivar, all,

>

> Everyone is so sure that they *know* what free will is. Anyone

care

> to define "free will"? First you have to define free will and then

> only can you discuss whether it exists or not. In careful thought,

I

> have discovered free will isnt so easy to recognize. Most people

> simply call free will the ability to follow the desire that is

> topmost in their head. If you get to marry the man or woman you

like,

> or get the chance to earn a degree in the profession you like, or

get

> to eat the food you like, or get to buy the house you like, or get

to

> converse with the people you like, or live in the country you

like,

> or get to follow any of a thousand other desires, you are

convinced

> you have free will. If you don't, then you complain that you don't

> have free will. To me, we first have see - "Is the desire free

> *itself*?" I hardly find a single desire that arises freely. Every

> desire arises as a consequence of something else.

>

> You want to marry a man or woman you like because of physical

> attraction which again happens due to your biological and mental

> makeup. It isnt a choice, simply a consequence of your physical

and

> mental makeup. Similarly with all other desires. My suspicion is

> that "free will" as mentioned in the sacred texts, DOES NOT even

> refer to the "choices" of the mind. They are all bound and part of

a

> chain, it doesnt matter which one you get to follow. Once the mind

> follows a desire, it is ALREADY BOUND, not free! Free will, I

think,

> is to do only with choosing to NOT jump headlong into following a

> desire. The only choice that is offered to us in life is that at

all

> times, you have the ability to not get carried away by desire. If

you

> exercise that choice, you have exercised free will. If you dont,

you

> havent. Bill Gates isnt exercising free will, he is simply

succumbing

> to one or more of the desires that present themselves in his mind.

> Witness the following statements:

> 1) In the Bhagavad Gita, I interpret the following statement as

> hinting at the above idea (though not directly) - lust is

essentially

> desire:

> "The Blessed Lord said: It is lust only, Arjuna, which is born of

> contact with the material modes of passion and later transformed

into

> wrath, and which is the all-devouring, sinful enemy of this world"

>

> 2) Jiddu Krishnamurti - one of the few people that have ever lived

> whose life was moksha in itself:

> "Freedom is not a reaction; freedom is not a choice. It is man's

> pretense that because he has choice he is free. Freedom is pure

> observation without direction, without fear of punishment and

reward.

> Freedom is without motive; freedom is not at the end of the

evolution

> of man but lies in the first step of his existence. In observation

> one begins to discover the lack of freedom. Freedom is found in

the

> choiceless awareness of our daily existence and activity"

>

>

> It is only after we realize what free will is that it makes sense

to

> discover it in astrological charts. Even if someone tells that x

and

> y houses are those of free will - what is the free will that they

> show?

>

> Sundeep

[Guest guest]

Hare Rama Krishna

 

Dear Friends,

 

i like to quote a paragraph from a book i like to read again and

again, "Coming Back" based on the teachings of the founder acharya of

ISCON

 

in the book you are asked Not to come back!)

 

 

" During our lifetime we are unknowingly creating the subtle form of

our next physical body. Just as a caterpilar transports itself by

taking hold of one leaf before giving up another, the living entity

begins to prepare its new body before giving up the present one. At

the moment of actual death the soul transmigrates to a new body

rendering the body of its former habitation lifeless. The soul does

not need the body to exist, but without the presence of the soul, the

body is nothing more than a corpse......" (pp 112)

 

 

 

So, by becoming aware of our true self, we'll able to free ourselves

more and more OR by being guided by our mind/body, we can bind

ourselves more and more.

 

So, the question is truly the will of "who?"

 

Regards

viswanadham

 

 

 

vedic astrology, "Sabri" <korua@e...> wrote:

>

> Dear Sundeep, Namaste,

>

> Some thoughts;

> You are perfectly right in pointing out to the need to define the

> meaning of "terms" in such a (philosophical) matter, indeed

language

> and logic are the tools of philosophy and they should be used

> correctly or one is lost.

>

> "Free Will" in this context, my personal thinking, is about who is

> giving the decision to act in a certain way. Is it "me" who decides

> to go this way and face a certain consequence, or the effect of

past

> karma that puts this thought in my mind, and I go that way and face

> that same consequence. Since karma is coming back to us, it appears

> that at least some of our thoughts should be predetermined, e.g. we

> think we are giving the decision, but in fact these thoughts we are

> having are already determined. OR it is arranged so that, when we

> are to face a consequence, whatever the decision we take, life is

> arranged so that we end up facing the same or similar consequence.

> The matter is actually quite complicated, as is said in the

> Gita; "Unfathomable is the course of action", e.g. we never know

the

> intricate details of how nature works, e.g. life unfolds before us.

> Whether someghing specific is due to karma or our own decision, or

> if karma, because of which previous deed etc.

>

> As man evolves further and further, he gains more of free-will,

e.g.

> to make decisions on his own, not based on previous karmic effects,

> is another thought.

>

> But it is always good to ponder and discuss over these issues. I

> myself very surprisingly found some new things, while looking at

> Bhagavat Gita, to post some excerpts.

>

> One further thought, as one evolves further and further same

> realities, or same pieces of knowledge gain newer meanings and

> dimensions. So we can never say this is exactly like that, some

time

> later, we can turn back and look at the same matter, and discover

> some new dimensions, realities or truths, that were not apparent or

> there before. This is simply because with evolution comes wider and

> better faculty of understanding of the same old reality. One saying

> goes; "There is nothing new under the sun" but we only see part of

> it.

>

> Best wishes, Sabri.

>

>

> vedic astrology, "vedicastrostudent"

> <vedicastrostudent> wrote:

> >

> > Dear Sabri, Ivar, all,

> >

> > Everyone is so sure that they *know* what free will is. Anyone

> care

> > to define "free will"? First you have to define free will and

then

> > only can you discuss whether it exists or not. In careful

thought,

> I

> > have discovered free will isnt so easy to recognize. Most people

> > simply call free will the ability to follow the desire that is

> > topmost in their head. If you get to marry the man or woman you

> like,

> > or get the chance to earn a degree in the profession you like, or

> get

> > to eat the food you like, or get to buy the house you like, or

get

> to

> > converse with the people you like, or live in the country you

> like,

> > or get to follow any of a thousand other desires, you are

> convinced

> > you have free will. If you don't, then you complain that you

don't

> > have free will. To me, we first have see - "Is the desire free

> > *itself*?" I hardly find a single desire that arises freely.

Every

> > desire arises as a consequence of something else.

> >

> > You want to marry a man or woman you like because of physical

> > attraction which again happens due to your biological and mental

> > makeup. It isnt a choice, simply a consequence of your physical

> and

> > mental makeup. Similarly with all other desires. My suspicion is

> > that "free will" as mentioned in the sacred texts, DOES NOT even

> > refer to the "choices" of the mind. They are all bound and part

of

> a

> > chain, it doesnt matter which one you get to follow. Once the

mind

> > follows a desire, it is ALREADY BOUND, not free! Free will, I

> think,

> > is to do only with choosing to NOT jump headlong into following a

> > desire. The only choice that is offered to us in life is that at

> all

> > times, you have the ability to not get carried away by desire. If

> you

> > exercise that choice, you have exercised free will. If you dont,

> you

> > havent. Bill Gates isnt exercising free will, he is simply

> succumbing

> > to one or more of the desires that present themselves in his

mind.

> > Witness the following statements:

> > 1) In the Bhagavad Gita, I interpret the following statement as

> > hinting at the above idea (though not directly) - lust is

> essentially

> > desire:

> > "The Blessed Lord said: It is lust only, Arjuna, which is born of

> > contact with the material modes of passion and later transformed

> into

> > wrath, and which is the all-devouring, sinful enemy of this

world"

> >

> > 2) Jiddu Krishnamurti - one of the few people that have ever

lived

> > whose life was moksha in itself:

> > "Freedom is not a reaction; freedom is not a choice. It is man's

> > pretense that because he has choice he is free. Freedom is pure

> > observation without direction, without fear of punishment and

> reward.

> > Freedom is without motive; freedom is not at the end of the

> evolution

> > of man but lies in the first step of his existence. In

observation

> > one begins to discover the lack of freedom. Freedom is found in

> the

> > choiceless awareness of our daily existence and activity"

> >

> >

> > It is only after we realize what free will is that it makes sense

> to

> > discover it in astrological charts. Even if someone tells that x

> and

> > y houses are those of free will - what is the free will that they

> > show?

> >

> > Sundeep

[Guest guest]

Dear Vishwanadham, Namaste,

 

Thanks for your reply and the important points you have raised;

"becoming aware of our true self" I beleive is the curucial point,

which again I beleive is possible through practices like Meditation,

Sadhana, Prayer, Poojas, Yoga, Religious Practices done in the

authentic manner, in fact any method that allows us to transcend

relativity and get in touch with the transcendant reality.

 

This I beleive will allow one to slowly get out of the grips of

karma, desires and their consequences, ultimately leading to

salvation from the cycle of death and rebirth. That's why I beleive

the Gita is placing so much emphasis on Dharma for the good of the

individual and the society.

 

Relevant lines from the Gita, if I am remembering correctly;

 

Naastrigunya BhavArjuna

Be without the tri-gunas O, Arjuna

(Tri-gunas; the relative phase of life, transcend and go beyond the

tri-gunas)

 

Yogastha Kuru Karmani

Established in Yoga, from there perform action

(Yoga; Union with the transcendental reality of life, beyond the

three Gunas, be established in the transcendant and perform action

from there which will be automatically good for one's self and the

society)

 

Thanks and best wishes, Sabri.

 

 

vedic astrology, "vishwanatham"

<vishwanatham@r...> wrote:

>

> Hare Rama Krishna

>

> Dear Friends,

>

> i like to quote a paragraph from a book i like to read again and

> again, "Coming Back" based on the teachings of the founder acharya

of

> ISCON

>

> in the book you are asked Not to come back!)

>

>

> " During our lifetime we are unknowingly creating the subtle form

of

> our next physical body. Just as a caterpilar transports itself by

> taking hold of one leaf before giving up another, the living

entity

> begins to prepare its new body before giving up the present one.

At

> the moment of actual death the soul transmigrates to a new body

> rendering the body of its former habitation lifeless. The soul

does

> not need the body to exist, but without the presence of the soul,

the

> body is nothing more than a corpse......" (pp 112)

>

>

>

> So, by becoming aware of our true self, we'll able to free

ourselves

> more and more OR by being guided by our mind/body, we can bind

> ourselves more and more.

>

> So, the question is truly the will of "who?"

>

> Regards

> viswanadham

>

>

>

> vedic astrology, "Sabri" <korua@e...> wrote:

> >

> > Dear Sundeep, Namaste,

> >

> > Some thoughts;

> > You are perfectly right in pointing out to the need to define

the

> > meaning of "terms" in such a (philosophical) matter, indeed

> language

> > and logic are the tools of philosophy and they should be used

> > correctly or one is lost.

> >

> > "Free Will" in this context, my personal thinking, is about who

is

> > giving the decision to act in a certain way. Is it "me" who

decides

> > to go this way and face a certain consequence, or the effect of

> past

> > karma that puts this thought in my mind, and I go that way and

face

> > that same consequence. Since karma is coming back to us, it

appears

> > that at least some of our thoughts should be predetermined, e.g.

we

> > think we are giving the decision, but in fact these thoughts we

are

> > having are already determined. OR it is arranged so that, when

we

> > are to face a consequence, whatever the decision we take, life

is

> > arranged so that we end up facing the same or similar

consequence.

> > The matter is actually quite complicated, as is said in the

> > Gita; "Unfathomable is the course of action", e.g. we never know

> the

> > intricate details of how nature works, e.g. life unfolds before

us.

> > Whether someghing specific is due to karma or our own decision,

or

> > if karma, because of which previous deed etc.

> >

> > As man evolves further and further, he gains more of free-will,

> e.g.

> > to make decisions on his own, not based on previous karmic

effects,

> > is another thought.

> >

> > But it is always good to ponder and discuss over these issues. I

> > myself very surprisingly found some new things, while looking at

> > Bhagavat Gita, to post some excerpts.

> >

> > One further thought, as one evolves further and further same

> > realities, or same pieces of knowledge gain newer meanings and

> > dimensions. So we can never say this is exactly like that, some

> time

> > later, we can turn back and look at the same matter, and

discover

> > some new dimensions, realities or truths, that were not apparent

or

> > there before. This is simply because with evolution comes wider

and

> > better faculty of understanding of the same old reality. One

saying

> > goes; "There is nothing new under the sun" but we only see part

of

> > it.

> >

> > Best wishes, Sabri.

> >

> >

> > vedic astrology, "vedicastrostudent"

> > <vedicastrostudent> wrote:

> > >

> > > Dear Sabri, Ivar, all,

> > >

> > > Everyone is so sure that they *know* what free will is.

Anyone

> > care

> > > to define "free will"? First you have to define free will and

> then

> > > only can you discuss whether it exists or not. In careful

> thought,

> > I

> > > have discovered free will isnt so easy to recognize. Most

people

> > > simply call free will the ability to follow the desire that is

> > > topmost in their head. If you get to marry the man or woman

you

> > like,

> > > or get the chance to earn a degree in the profession you like,

or

> > get

> > > to eat the food you like, or get to buy the house you like, or

> get

> > to

> > > converse with the people you like, or live in the country you

> > like,

> > > or get to follow any of a thousand other desires, you are

> > convinced

> > > you have free will. If you don't, then you complain that you

> don't

> > > have free will. To me, we first have see - "Is the desire free

> > > *itself*?" I hardly find a single desire that arises freely.

> Every

> > > desire arises as a consequence of something else.

> > >

> > > You want to marry a man or woman you like because of physical

> > > attraction which again happens due to your biological and

mental

> > > makeup. It isnt a choice, simply a consequence of your

physical

> > and

> > > mental makeup. Similarly with all other desires. My suspicion

is

> > > that "free will" as mentioned in the sacred texts, DOES NOT

even

> > > refer to the "choices" of the mind. They are all bound and

part

> of

> > a

> > > chain, it doesnt matter which one you get to follow. Once the

> mind

> > > follows a desire, it is ALREADY BOUND, not free! Free will, I

> > think,

> > > is to do only with choosing to NOT jump headlong into

following a

> > > desire. The only choice that is offered to us in life is that

at

> > all

> > > times, you have the ability to not get carried away by desire.

If

> > you

> > > exercise that choice, you have exercised free will. If you

dont,

> > you

> > > havent. Bill Gates isnt exercising free will, he is simply

> > succumbing

> > > to one or more of the desires that present themselves in his

> mind.

> > > Witness the following statements:

> > > 1) In the Bhagavad Gita, I interpret the following statement

as

> > > hinting at the above idea (though not directly) - lust is

> > essentially

> > > desire:

> > > "The Blessed Lord said: It is lust only, Arjuna, which is born

of

> > > contact with the material modes of passion and later

transformed

> > into

> > > wrath, and which is the all-devouring, sinful enemy of this

> world"

> > >

> > > 2) Jiddu Krishnamurti - one of the few people that have ever

> lived

> > > whose life was moksha in itself:

> > > "Freedom is not a reaction; freedom is not a choice. It is

man's

> > > pretense that because he has choice he is free. Freedom is

pure

> > > observation without direction, without fear of punishment and

> > reward.

> > > Freedom is without motive; freedom is not at the end of the

> > evolution

> > > of man but lies in the first step of his existence. In

> observation

> > > one begins to discover the lack of freedom. Freedom is found

in

> > the

> > > choiceless awareness of our daily existence and activity"

> > >

> > >

> > > It is only after we realize what free will is that it makes

sense

> > to

> > > discover it in astrological charts. Even if someone tells that

x

> > and

> > > y houses are those of free will - what is the free will that

they

> > > show?

> > >

> > > Sundeep